🎶 Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last ten years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Ark from LNBITS. Good evening, all. Josh Egaalot from thestandard.io. Yo, and I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one, issue one, global retail giant, SPAR introduces Bitcoin payments via the Lightning Network. The Dutch multinational franchise embraces digital assets in the heart of Europe. SPAR Switzerland is launching Bitcoin payments through the Lightning Network in Zug. They have over 1,000 Bitcoin's accepting Bitcoin, it's emphasizing its crypto-friendly environment. They're even saying LNURL is a protocol that simplifies interactions on the Bitcoin Lightning Network. It's not just Bitcoin anymore. This time, it's Lightning at SPAR. Ben Ark, what do you think about SPAR supermarkets? Accepting Lightning. I'm quite excited about. I only heard about this earlier today. But yeah, DFX Swiss, we actually have an extension for LNBITS, which has been in the wings for a while as a fear on our front. So you can use DFX Swiss because they do the, because in Switzerland, they have this thing where you can cash out up to, I think, it's $1000 a day. I know we need to bank details. You don't have to give any KYC stuff like passports. So we've always wanted to link in with one of those companies and then have an extension to do fear off-ramps and on ramps. So they've built the extension and then we just, we actually just need to vet it and get it in the extension marketplace. But this kind of makes me think that, because we don't know who's using LNBITS, we have no idea. People use it in their software stacks because it takes a lot of the heavy lifting out and it does things like runs LNURL and LNURL and the fact that they've built an extension, it could very well mean that this thing is be all being powered by LNBITS. So I've got no proof, but I'm going to assume that it's all built on LNBITS. I'm extremely excited about it. That the Spar shop is now implemented in LNBITS, but there is an assumption, like, you know, and props to DFX Swiss for getting into the spa. I'm not quite sure what are these thing LNURL because it's a screen so you could just generate an invoice, but I guess they using LNURL pay for the payments. I'm not really sure why, but maybe it's because they can print it out or something, but anyway, it's kind of cool also to see just the word LNURL and get normal people used to LNURL because it is a useful technology and something which a lot of us have been working on for a while. So yeah, it's cool. Well done, DFX Swiss, and I hope they're using LNBITS. Then you need to get under the hood there and figure out what's going on. You need the program to radio home and have it say it's being used because you need to be like BTC pace everywhere. They have the documentary and the t-shirts and the masked man. Well, I was actually, yeah, I don't know when I was saying, but he doesn't show up in public like the other masked man, which is a, I think, less successful for maintaining the whole mask man thing. You got it. You got to have a mask. But the, I was actually getting, I got, it was like Batman. It's like your mask is like, at most of my face is visible. Yeah, I was actually getting the image on the article and then I was trying to scurrying GIMP so I could scan the LNURL and then try and go into it to see whether they were using LNBITS. But I couldn't get my QR code scanner to read it. So if anyone finds these that challenge, I've tried to read that QR code with their smartphones and figuring out whether they're using LNBITS behind it, then that'd be cool. I'm sure someone can do that post down below what the address is either in the chat now live or later on when you're watching this at home. I'll take the next one. Spar, it's a grocery store. I've been there before. How cool is that? They have great food. It's really neat. And what I think is neat about this again is we emphasized in the introduction is that they're taking the lightning network. It's not just Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a, what is it? A gold, digital gold. You keep it in your vault. No one can touch your Bitcoin. You'd never send it around or spend it. No, it's a payment. It's being used as a payment. Here's a place that you can pay. So it's an old-timey story, but it's back again at a much larger level. This is a huge grocery store. It's all over Southern Europe, I would say. Josh, Shagall, what do you think? Old-timey stories are new again. A grocery store accepts Bitcoin. Of course, this time, of course, it's the lightning network. Let's emphasize lightning. Josh is muted, censored. censored once again. It's like the good old days of Twitter. Yeah, it's amazing. And we should celebrate it. Back in the early days of Bitcoin, every new retail store, we'd celebrate when Roger Verne managed to get some crappy shop hole in the wall, accepting Bitcoin. It was like, yeah, the whole community would go nuts, and we'd all push each other now. And by the way, at the same time, we would all scream and shout, as soon as any miner got close to like 50 watches. Really censored, because it doesn't say he's muted, but he is mute. Really? Am I? Oh, no. My computer's broken now too. Everything's is that point for everything to be back again, Joe? Yeah, I'm back. I mean, I think I've always been here. I think that might have been your computer. But yeah, we should celebrate more lightning stuff, just the similar as the old days, when we used to be really engaged and like, that miners got 40 8% everybody riled up. Now, no one would even know who the hell's mining anymore, or care if anyone's close to 51% and no one really cares when you shops accept Bitcoin, but we should, we should care, we should celebrate it, we should promote them, and shops that did accept Bitcoin, they would get pressed too. So there's a few crew margins who still care about the mining pool getting over 50 or 51% Josh, but no one listens to them. I think the same thing, I think that if you live near one of these grocery stores, you should go on to Twitter, like Josh said in the good old days, and post a video of yourself shopping there and spending with Bitcoin. Also, this way we can get more of those URLs and try to get the answer for Ben about if this is running his software in the backend. Yeah, wonderful. Congratulations, Ben, I'm going to give you a pre-congrats because I think it's probably is a little bit, and way to go, yeah, let's celebrate it back to the roots. I do think you're right there, I think there's not enough of people posting using Bitcoin payments in shops and stuff like they used to be. As a contribution, actually, for developers and people building on Bitcoin, it really helps to see that stuff on social media platforms, gives you a lot of left. It's like, oh yeah, that's why we're building tools when you just see some dickhead like sailor on making bank with his rhetoric also about also finding Bitcoin and not using it as money. That does the opposite. That deflates us. I think it's important. You're right, you should celebrate it as 300-pensource opt out money. Yeah, and I think the HODL meme has taken on way too much power because it's not just to HODL. It's not just to HODL the whole time and cash out to a bank. Sure, you can do that. That's a great option. It would have served me better. But it's the pursuit of free and open source money, which creates this asset, which you can then HODL. It's like, you have to use, it has to be free and open source money. That's the use of free and open source money. If you don't pursue the goal of like Ben saying, of free and open source money that we use on the internet to pay for things, then the thing's not valuable, then it's not worth being digital gold. Now you just hold it's worthless. By promoting this complete ossification, and I do think it's a attack, like Ben said, I think it's a too-pronged attack. I think it's an attack on one level where he said, the code of Bitcoin must freeze. We're not looking for new features. We're not looking to improve things, doing things like the lightning network, doing things that are hard, that are complex, that are difficult to take risks. We're not looking for that. What we're looking for is bone ossification, to become bone frozen. The second prong of the attack he's doing with his incredible wealth. He's actually literally freezing hundreds, maybe thousands, of Bitcoin in his vaults, which I think will stay there as long as Johnny's cousin doesn't steal him, or he doesn't steal him himself. And this is having a great effect, I think, on trying to freeze Bitcoin. It's interesting to see what the internet will do in response to this. If they're just cool, like this guy can come in and take a thing that, remember, currency means to flow. Currency is the current, so it has to flow. So if it doesn't flow, like Josh is saying, people using it in the old days, people using it now, making it move, then it freezes, and it becomes bone ossification. Josh, what do you think? They say boo sailor in the chat, at least in our chat. In our chat, yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, the part of open source money is the fact that anybody can do anything with it. That's why the whole ridiculous notion of more women in Bitcoin, you know, demoing against, like anyone can come in. Women can come in, men can come in, maybe not dogs. They are, I find it a bit harder with no disposable thumb, but you can just jump in. And so if you want Michael sailor to come in, or not, it doesn't matter, he can, and he can do whatever he wants. He can huddle. He can not. You know, sure, there's philosophy and China, you know, have a culture based around something. But yeah, the huddle culture is too strong. I've always been put a big fan of re-huddle, meaning going spend it and use it and then buy some more with the fiat instead of instead of trading the stuff to fiat and then buying your thing with that. Well, I was thinking about that, Josh, visually, when they do these jet lag shows and they go on an airplane, they do the carbon offset, right? They're like, we spent 3,000 miles. So we're going to buy 30,000 miles in the same way if you want to make a video about going to spar and spending 20 bucks or 20 euros, you could put down below. I went to the, you know, strike or whatever your local equivalent is, I bought 40 euros worth to cover this 20, right? Josh, we could be responsible where you spent and you buy more instead of this, just I spent it and then I feel bad because I spent 20 euros next week. It's worth 25. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, cool. You can read the book. It's not too late. All right. So we got the grocery store. Let's keep it going. Any extra other comments on this, Ben? And what do you think, Ben? If it's going right to speech, if it's your if it's your thing, man. No, I just think it's I'm all for kind of bottom up adoption. But I do think it's important when these bigger companies implement Bitcoin payments into their POS systems. We had it a lot in our Salvador with, you know, McDonald's and Wendy's and these are the companies which in Salvador mostly American companies because their technology teams have to figure out grab their heads around Bitcoin payments and then implement it. And then the company gets to see the technology in action and they have a solution to roll out when other countries start allowing Bitcoin payments or it becomes more, yeah, it becomes okay to use it as currency. So I'm totally, you know, my my focus is bottom up adoption. But when we have these big companies implementing Bitcoin payments, it's really powerful. It's very important because they're all prepared. And they've got the they got the arms in the tool set ready to roll out when the world needs to switch to Bitcoin, which it may very well do, you know, pretty soon. It could happen sooner than you think. Moving on to issue two Bitcoin gold copycat move may top 150,000 dollars of coin as Bitcoin stays impressive. Bitcoin may be down 10% year to date, but that doesn't dent its status as a growing macro hedge says glass node research is 155,000 dollars a coin Bitcoin in the cards Josh Shagalla. Yeah, sorry, I was just reading the chat and I didn't hear you. 155,000 dollars a coin Bitcoin. Oh, yeah, yeah, I read the articles. I'll just pull the number out me, I'll spank the and say it'll reach that and hopefully everyone will write about it and read about it and go, yeah, no, it's it's bad. I know it'll it will absolutely it'll get to 44 billion. No, what was it been? $666 billion is written on the back of a just 600. The other six billion. Those are the bad sixes. Yeah, you don't want the three sixes. But I do think Josh, they the technical people and again, it's hard to believe and all of this is hard to believe, but they've been calling for that second bump. They've been saying that the supply of Bitcoin because of the happening went down so much, we haven't seen the real supply shock, which we drive up. They're also saying that the global liquidity market is pretty much drained out and that it recovers every four years and that we're linked to these things. So we have to jump up to 150 to 250, even if the economy is being wrecked and destroyed so on and so forth because of other functions and other things happen. What do you think Josh, we think about that? I did. Yeah, I mean, but you always need liquidity from and there's plenty of liquidity out there. It's just in fewer and fewer hands. So yeah, get it, get it while it's hot as soon as it's down. And definitely it's this cycle should be higher by now. So it will be higher by now. It will be higher soon enough. I'm a permable though, I have been forever. Just keep stacking if it's on sale. Grab it while it's hot. And Eric, what do you think? $150,000 at coin? I mean, yeah, 600, 600 billion in it or us, it's a point. I mean, of course, it's going to get to 150 at some point. It's like, yeah, we'll get there. I think there's going to be more blood in the streets with the price and we're probably in a nice bear market, which are quite like a bear market. So because you know, it sort of shakes out because when you look around the room in a bear market, you're like, all these people here, they're here because they love the technology and they believe in this thing. And then in the bull market, you know, they kind of get drowned out by this new wave of people hoping to make a quick buck. But every time that happens, every time you do have a bull market, it's not like, you know, the people who join then disappear, you know, half of them will leave. And then the other half who stay, they're there, they figure out the power of the technology and you increase that Hadoor bedrock and Bitcoin just gets more and more stronger because that's really where the value is, is the the people who understand the technology, you want to use it and, you know, the people who stick with it. But no, I feel this, we're still, yeah, we're only just beginning off our bear market for now, Ricken. And unless there's some big geopolitical event and, you know, countries start adopting Bitcoin, which could also happen, as I mean, it's like, is either going to be a slow burner, a bit of a bear market slow burner, and then it'll go back up or there'll be this huge wave of adoption because the world's very terribly in place and all these aspirations of creating digital money are quite ambitious. And I'm sure a lot of nations will realize they might as well just use Bitcoin to get ahead of the curve and start, yeah, start getting there populist to embrace this great technology. So two knows 600 billion. 600 billion. It does seem evolutionary, Ben, as if it was meant to happen, perhaps Bitcoin had been practiced on other planets brought here with the Roswell, the secret cell phones, the plans for cryptocurrency, and eventually everyone can join the United Federation as a planet, not for warp drive, but for adopting Bitcoin. It just seems so viral. The way that it's spread, like even watching, I'll talk about more later, but I watch this Vitalik documentary. And it's been so fast, like he was a kid, you know, five years ago in how he's the God of the world and so forth. But to see Bitcoin in the same way, to be this smaller software project, to be this huge software project now and Bitcoin and Lightning and things taking off. There's almost as if, like Satoshi was from the the future, or from an alien planet, like you're saying, does this like feedback loop, which is baked in early on on the distribution of Bitcoin in that the people who are kind of early, they get enriched by this thing and then they want to feed back into it. And there's this huge incentive to, you know, create like velocity in the adoption of the technology. And then it also gives them the capital to build stuff too. So yeah, it's one of the, it's one of the, yet another example of Satoshi's genius in the cap of Bitcoin and the deflationary properties to be able to create a subsistaining ecosystem by having to think of value so rapidly. And that's exactly one of the things that Vitalik was talking about as well, Ben. And I think that this is why people should fund your project, Ellen Bitts. He talked about that virtuous cycle and how a bunch of people get rich, then they want to invest, they want to create, you know, more projects into Ethereum was their example, of course, for their project. But for us, it would be more projects in Bitcoin, more projects in cryptocurrency in general. And that he said the big difference between the now world and the previous world, I think, back when he was playing world of warcraft as an even younger kid, if that's something you can even imagine, is that now crypto can fund these projects. And it hasn't quite happened. I don't think for anybody at this table, but theoretically, that idea is still out there. We'll put it viral right here in one of those short videos that AI will clip it out for me. Good job, AI. And we'll see what happens. But we're going to go to Josh Shagall for the exit question predicting the price of Bitcoin. This time next week will it be higher or lower? We've had a lot of ups, a lot of downs. What do you think Josh? Yeah, I honestly think it's going to go higher. We're moving sideways, obviously. And yeah, we've seen a lot of bumps. So I've my feeling after I draw a bunch of triangles and squares on my graph and chart. And I pray to Fibonacci gods about his, about his, you know, two, three, five numbers. I'll get up. Fibonacci is not unlike Buddha. He likes a shrine. So I think that's a land Josh. And I've seen a lot of sets that way. Ben, but I'm the same way you're just, I'm always a permable on these things. I'm always like, does Bitcoin still work? Have they broken cryptography? Oh, well, then I'm with it. I'm with it. Maybe we should go up, right? And then it goes down in the moment or whatever. I'm like, why is it going down? How could it go down? Who's selling? They're great at it. They've got the triangles. Ben, Ark, what do you think? You've got the triangles. They're on the wall behind you. Is it going up or down this time next week? Well, there was a, I don't know if you saw, but there was a three before the two. And that came after the five and after the nine. And then historically against the moving average, it means it's going to go up. Yeah, it's going to go up. If you've got the nine, Ben, the nine is one of the indicators. And we have those here in Vegas in the slot machines. It's unbelievable. And I don't know how they can get away with it. I try to wrap my head around it. There's three fire crackers, right? And the firecrackers add up and it's an animation. And in your head, you say, wow, you know, nine out of 10 firecrackers are lit. I think I'm going to win soon, right? It turns out, according to the rules and this will blow your head. It's I still don't understand the firecrackers have nothing to do with anything. They're merely an animation. They are a like come play this video game animation as one would, you know, insert coin in the old days. Look how fun Mario looks. It's a firecracker. But people see them and they say this machine is hot. This is a hot machine and they give it the money. And this is happening now legally and of rules in a ruled and pleasant society. So yes, amazing things at these casinos. But anyway, I think higher as well, will the price be higher? We're going to ask the ball, the one who truly knows the reason you're I know the bubbles and I got the light. I'm going to need all the light. We're going to need it. Here we go. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Ask again later. Ask again later. I do all the work. Ball, no answer. Moving on, check out worldcrypto network.com where we've got short videos featuring Dan. That's right. Dan Eve, the crypto raptor was back on the show with us last week. You can check out these short videos as well as Victoria, Josh, with Seam and more right here on the world crypto network.com. Moving on to issue three, Michael, sailor has one word for Bitcoin and it's not sell. Michael is buying more Bitcoin, but this time he's buying it using common stock. When to means he's moved down from taking equities money, rich people's money to taking retail's money to buy more and more Bitcoin in his exciting, completely not a Ponzi scheme has nothing to do with pirate at 40 brilliant idea called micro strategy, now called strategy where he buys Bitcoin and he holds it and he makes more money. Josh, Shagalla, don't you think we all could have thought of it first, but now he's selling stock and buying Bitcoin. He's just one step away from selling blood, Seam and and pencils on the street. What do you think Josh? Michael, sailor, he just buys. Josh, yeah, I mean, it is a genius struggle. I mean, it's not that jazz. It's pretty simple, but we, it's a micro strategy really is. I mean, and the funny thing is the company's been around forever. I remember seeing a super bowl lad for micro strategy in what the 90s, like 95, something like that. There's a original Silicon Valley party boy. They were worried about the company back then and then out of nowhere as far as I can tell this idea comes out. Let's just buy Bitcoin, which obviously is simple, but of course deceptive in its brilliance and we've all done the same thing. I think with our own resources, but they're very small. His resource is very large and to see him have that level of commitment to it is incredible. It's like it's not, it's incredible. It's huge debt, it's macro dedication, micro strategy. Yeah, but and it's all good on the way up, you know, but if you too highly leveraged and it starts going down like Bitcoin does with its roller coaster of joy, it's amazing that he hasn't been massively hurt. So from from the down, I think he got very close in one of those mega dips to to being totally liquidated. That would have been hardcore because that would have kicked off other liquidations, would have kicked it would have just bop bop bop bop bop cascaded down in a nice domino effect and would have left. But that sort of thing also leaves the rest of the market, the retail just to buy up the dip if they can. So, John, what do you think? I've often said that I wish he was here earlier because we could have used the support when we had nothing, but at the same time the swings used to be so radical. If he had gotten in earlier, do you think he'd be wiped out in one of those swings? Well, Pirate at 40 did. And then, yeah, of course, he would have. And the thing is back then, he was bagging Bitcoin back then. He was bagging it saying it's nonsense. He only got it later. Of course, then he became the sage that everyone quotes. And his quotes were all things that we said beforehand. But, you know, that is the part that seems to make it worse with these major figures like Mark Cuban or Michael Sailor is that not only did they not like Bitcoin and they've had a 180 that they don't acknowledge, but now they're considered sages and smart people when they didn't have it back in the day. I think they should be elevating more people who had a good pick back in the day, people like Andreas Antonopoulos, who has disappeared from the media space who I think could have had a lot more power and a lot more good could have been done. And I see this, you know, watching the Vitalik documentary, what a founder who's kind of dedicated to your cause even in his own way, I can do for you. And I say, gosh, Bitcoin needs one of those. And Jack Mollers is doing pretty good. I don't know the empty closet thing. What's her name? Why in the empty closet? That room. It's just empty. I mean, it's obviously it's his mother's apartment in Chicago and it's her closet and it's empty because she doesn't live there. But I think to him, it's some kind of hustle culture in a way, maybe an echo of Vitalik's like I live in a suitcase. Jack lives in a suitcase. He doesn't have a closet full of clothes, but he clearly does. He has immaculate hoodies. He can get a fancy suit, not a, you know, this, but a real suit when he wants. And so forth, he's a mass, he's a Chicago finance guy, especially with the strike company doing very well. But now, I don't know exactly what Josh why he's sticking with the empty closet. And I think it's just this, I don't know, young guy and the hoodie in the closet. That's some kind of startup thing. Sounds like a South Park episode. That's not what I've said. Don't cruise won't come out of the closet. We need to go to Ben Benwadi. Think about Michael Sailor. He had a large strategy. It seemed like a pirate strategy. And eventually he was selling equities, large scale raises. He was doing this whole, you know, virtual capital raise into my big strategy. Now he's saying, hey, you mom and pop, you can invest into my retail stock that only goes up because I only buy Bitcoin is I'm so smart. Yeah, I mean, I just wanted to support the industry, which, which is helping create so much value for his stock. So I'll be on board with Sailor when he don't make some money to open sets. That's all he needs to do just because it feeds back like, you know, he don't need some money to open sets. He creates a whole new great bunch of projects and then it gives the whole ecosystem of value and then then his stock goes up in value. So it's a win-win for him. But yeah, I mean, as Josh said before, you know, there's no gatekeepers. Anyone can come into Bitcoin and do whatever they want. What what Sailor does show is that you can't really have fear currencies and Bitcoin existing in the same, in the same environment because you can walk around because you couldn't, yeah, because you can just accumulate that and buy Bitcoin, accumulate more debt by Bitcoin and then the thing goes up in value, which is basically this is the strategy is just like buy Bitcoin and then sell stock. I feel like the common stock strategy might be that the other way of accumulating the Bitcoin could be drying up a little bit for micro-strategy, particularly in the bear market. So it might not be good news for for micro-strategy. And I agree that, you know, his talking points, a bunch of people who come into Bitcoin, they think, well, this guy's a god because he's got this wisdom. But it is the wisdom of he's just boiling down all the best bits of everything people have been saying in the, like we've said in the show a whole bunch of times and trace and say, oh, a bunch of times. And don't you think that Trace Mayor is turning off what Trace Mayor Trace is business man. He's a lawyer. He's area-dite. He's spoke much better than I let me tell you. Let me tell you. So fantastic. It is all of his, his different ideas, the network effect of Bitcoin. Don't you feel like if Trace had been selling stock the whole time, certainly everyone would have called him a scammer and burned him in effigy. Like they did the one time he tried to sell whatever it was, Mimble Wimble or something. This is Trace's idea. This is all of Trace's words. This is Trace's suit thing, the whole thing. He's a rich guy. Why didn't Trace do this? Like it's so strange, I think Ben. This is very interesting, Thomas. So Trace Mayor who fell off the edge of the planet known saw him ever again, he turned up on Michael Sala's boat. So I think Michael Sala was a big fan of Trace. I'm a complete lack of surprise. Yeah. So I think that Trace Mayor was a big fan of Michael, sorry, I think Michael Sala was a big fan of Trace Mayor. Because actually if you listen to what he says, it's a lot of Trace Mayor's talking points. And then maybe he reached out to him and said, which actually, if he did do that, if he did reach out to Trace Mayor and said, look, you're a legend coming hang out on my boat with me, then props to Michael Sala because Trace Mayor is a legend. And he does deserve some respect from people for what he did for Bitcoin. Because he was a big, and the Bitcoin community really gave him a disservice by turning their back on him just because he was as a libertarian, providing some very good technology with Grin. Starship, Schrodinger's destiny in the chat said, if Michael Sala gives Alan Bitts a million dollars, then I'll change my tune. And that is dead on exactly right. I'll be as big as Fanboy. And I'll wear Michael Sala t-shirt if he gives Alan Bitts a million dollars so we can build some cool shit. And it does seem perhaps he has the Trace Mayor gospel like you're saying Ben, but he only got half of it, right? One of the big things I remember from Trace is network effect. And network effect is about currency. And if Bitcoin's not a currency, it's not flowing to new people. It's not being used. Graphic designers and got came money. It's not going to work. And I think that this sailor guy, and this is really hard talking to sailors assistant right now. You continue to cut this part out and show it to them, you know, like Ben saying, he's on the beach or whatever and say, excuse me, sir, and he puts the my tie down. He's got the white clothes and all that. And you got to say, Mr. Sala, think about this. These weird dudes on the Internet have been talking about Bitcoin for 10 years and no one cares about it. They think that you should have a religious conversion. They think that you should change your mind about Bitcoin as a currency and understand that you're part of the Trojan horse of a new currency that's destroying the old world of currencies every day that exists. Every day that Bitcoin doesn't crash and die, the world of old currencies dies. Right? Every day that we've been in Bitcoin, it's gone bigger and bigger and bigger, not because anything that we've done or even these guys at SPAR accepting lightning payments, which is incredible. But because the idea is so good, that's why we're talking about sci-fi ideas about did they develop this idea in virtual reality where they could try different versions to make such a good sticky version? Did they develop it on other planets where they could test it on other cultures to develop such a good sticky version where the entire planet gets stuck in Bitcoin and can't get out of it? And that you, Michael Sailor, need to give up on ossification, give up on digital gold, give up of being the gargamel who hoards all of the smurfs, who he's turned into gold and set them free as smurfs. Imagine if instead of gold bars, you had little blue people who did stuff, right? Like Ben here who does stuff, give Ben and not a lot, $10 million, like a Batman. Well, get knocks at Grant. Let's hope that Trace Mad being on his boat, you know, whispered some magic into his ear and maybe will like give Michael Sailor some new talking points which he could get used to. It's not without precedence where people use a free and open source software get very, very rich off of it but never actually pay the engineers anything. Which is a strange sad side effect of free and open source where, you know, eventually maybe they'll get a job at the company that got wealthy off the back of the actual product. But yeah, let's see, say it like it's very true. I mean, this is this is someone talked in the chat, it's like because I booed Michael Sailor and ultimately when I just speak to my fellow developer friends in Bitcoin, a whole bunch of them at the moment feel quite disenfranchised because the kind of the narrative is changed from this like freedom money to more of the sort of Sailor ideology. So like I get that there's no gatekeepers and he can do whatever he wants but in the same regard, he's in a very powerful position and he needs to, you know, when he starts promoting things like, ossifying and then just restricting the use of Bitcoin to as just a digital asset, then he can have, you know, he can impact the development of the protocol and the Bitcoin as you being Bitcoin being used as money, you'll just slow it down, he's not going to stop it. So yeah, he needs to kind of, I don't know, go speak some core developers and ask them why they're working on this thing because, you know, they're not working on this thing just to make some new asset class for Wall Street Bros to play about with. And the core developers aren't going to be at that Bitcoin meetup where you pay the $10,000 for the whale pass, right? You're not going to meet them at the cocktail party, they're not going to be there. You're going to have to make a little pilgrimage to them and it's going to seem really silly because they're going to wear a t-shirt or something, they're not going to take it seriously. And Ben, I've seen this because I watched this crazy Ethereum documentary recently, and I didn't know very much about what they were up to, but they had similar problems to this and what it takes to change it is people actually changing it. So the people actually watching this go out there and vote with their feet and vote with their mouth and tell Sailor what they think and Sailor eventually hears and listens and he considers it. And Josh and I went ahead and pulled it out by to do a quick Google search, but there's an XKCD cartoon that talks about the exact problem that you're talking about. And there was a real example of this as well. I don't have that, but there was a specific piece of internet infrastructure that one guy, as it says here, all modern digital infrastructure and it's a bunch of blocks stacked on top of each other. And it says, a project that some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003. And you see this little itty bitty block, a whole thing's about to fall over. Yeah. And this is what they need to understand about Bitcoin and about open source, why you have to support these smaller projects, and why you have to understand the totality of the project, the holistic nature of Bitcoin. You can't just say, I understand part of Bitcoin. I understand that it goes up in value. And if I hold it in my account, that means that my account goes up in value. That is wonderful. Like a very beginning introduction to why you should be in a Bitcoin. But if you don't have new ways to spend it, if you're not developing new ways to spend it, making it easier and making it automatic, like Ben's talking about programmable money, like if you're not seeing why programmable money would be cool, you're not going to get it, you're not going to get the whole project and you're not going to understand why it's worth money, why it goes up in money. I mean, I love Bitcoin, Bitcoin's my first love, but really that's why I ended up building more stuff on Ethereum and on Arbitram and stuff. It's because the culture was just more open to stuff on Bitcoin as soon as you start building anything, or Trace Mayer talked about in Memblewimble, which basically was still on Bitcoin, but had a privacy, but because it wasn't pure enough for the Bitcoin extremists, he got totally shut out and disappeared because he got slammed and badmouthed so hard. And it's just unfortunate. Bitcoin is used to be about disruption and now it's the, yeah, this ossification, this calcification, and it's unfortunate, because we just want to build cool stuff, build stuff that moves the legacy system out of the way, makes them obsolete. And you can't do that with being put down for using a certain technology type. And so it is unfortunate. And so what that causes is for developers not be able to actually raise money, because the even the community themselves don't want to help out. And because of fear of supporting something that's not pure enough, and that's unfortunate. And again, Josh, you're going to love this Ethereum movie, but we need to get Michael Saylor right on the back track. We need to get him right here working on it, contributing to Bitcoin to the developers. Ben, you need to get a QR code on the screen so people can give you money. Just drop him a million dollars. Take care of it, right? You've got to get the smoke machine back that people can just blast you with smoke machines, slap machine, one million dollars, drop confetti machine. Yeah. Like a black mirror episode. Yeah. Talk to my last one. Oh my god. That last one of them said, and I'm still it's a show you can't binge watch. You have to like just turn it off at the end of the episode. Are they releasing them weekly because I binge watch them and then I was and then it sort of ran out black mirrors. If they're releasing them weekly, that's cool. You can pick up on them. I don't know. I just physically can't because you know Netflix just jumps to the next thing straight away. No, no, you need time to digest that. I need to get to like, yeah. Yeah. I stopped years ago. It was too much. I did the I did the eight ball extension on the bits at Thomas and it said that the outcome doesn't look good. So I spun down the ball is still pessimistic even when it's online. Let's move on to issue four. Unfortunately, we have to get slightly political, I guess. It says, how will President Trump's threat to Federal Reserve Chairman Powell affect Bitcoin? President Trump has recently threatened to fire the chairman of the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is responsible for printing the money for the United States. He says that the Fed has been late to cut rates saying that the European common bank has already lowered rates by 25 basis points and now is urging Powell to do the same. Trump implied that he may be planning to quote, remove the Fed chair stating that the termination cannot come too fast. Ben Arck, what do you think? The President is threatening to remove the Federal Reserve chair because the rate cut did not come fast enough. How could this affect Bitcoin? Yeah, it's probably a good thing for Bitcoin as a potential safe haven because historically, in choppy markets, people would buy government bonds, American government bonds, and they're not doing that in fact, they're dumping. There's a lot of interesting sort of speculation on China's what China are doing to leverage their position because they hold a lot of American government bonds and they're dumping on the market, which isn't good for the American economy because when this new world where suddenly the world doesn't seem to trust the American economy to remain as strong as it is. Well, I mean, maybe some of the world does, but by China dumping on dumping their government bonds, it's certainly not putting the American a good place and then it really impacts their ability to fix the economy just by adjusting in the trust rates. So I feel like Trump's kind of lapping, like he's trying to sort of force a hand of power because he wants to improve the conditions for his rich stock market mates so they don't all set up on him which they surely will so do at some point. I mean, so within the markets, like actually, Trump's policies have been pretty good for Wall Street because there's a lot of money to be made when markets are choppy. So the major banks are all doing pretty well off the back of all this instability, but there's a certain point where where sort of the longer term investment and infrastructure which companies make gets impacted by Trump's policies and that's where the the more oligarch class is probably going to turn on it. But it's a tricky one because he's just he's leveraging all the power of president in a way which no other president has done before and he's sort of showing how much power a president theoretically can have and other presidents haven't leveraged that power. So whether or not this will kind of change and learn the future, like maybe America bringing some more constitutions to try and limit the power of the president, I'm not sure. I suppose you've got a king now, so yeah, he'll decide. I agree with Ben's conclusion first. I think there's too many changes and it makes it so you can't sell widgets. You can't set your orders. You can't make your investments. There's no reliability to this market. There's too much chop. But going back to the Bitcoin and the way that they can now exit things, it sounds like sanctions where these old-fashioned ideas, sanctions, tariffs just don't work anymore because of Bitcoin because there's a third way. There's a way out of the market that's not government bonds and it could be terrifying. It could be world changing if people say, well, we used to keep our money in government bonds, but now we keep it in Bitcoin because we don't trust governments, which is of course a libertarian fantasy. But Trump is actually trying to avoid this. He's not trying to cause it, right? China is doing China are selling all their American government bonds and they're buying up Bitcoin. There'll be the news right there. The news which makes the price go crackess. Even that idea of Ben, even saying that sentence out loud, it's enough that on one side, it's enough that China's selling the government bonds. That's huge. They own an incredible amount of government bonds. On the other idea, the idea that they have somewhere to sell it to that is safer than perhaps their currency, which could be potentially attacked. You have this global currency where it's a global defense rather than even one incredibly large country like China defending it. It's a whole new safe haven, a whole new potential that they allies there. If they do the game theory and they're like, okay, well, we can screw the US by selling our government bonds and then we can impact USD Hijonomi by buying up Bitcoin and again, getting ahead of the curve. This is where it could cut adoption, could really come like a wave, because then it's all gloves or yeah, there's no limit. 600 billion. I remember China has a wee chat. They have those highly regulated everything apps that people use for all their payments. And if they decided tomorrow, just like SPAR, to adopt LN, URL pay and LN which Michael Saylor could still be invest in, there's still time. Michael Saylor's assistant, if you're worth anything, you should be on the internet right now. You should be getting this message sent to you. BPP, someone's talking about the boss. And they should, you know, they should be talking about you and their meetings already been, because all of China could just say, let's use Lightning Network payments. And that would mean they're going to need infrastructure and you have the Lightning Network infrastructure. Josh Tagala, it's a political hot potato, we're handing it to you. Normally, the president cannot fire the chair of the Federal Reserve. This is usually a slower process, similar to Supreme Court, perhaps every four years, kind of a term thing. The Federal Reserve, while Federal is not directly controlled by the Fed, the government, right? This has always been accepted kind of a hands-off currency thing, but the president is saying he wants to change that. What do you think, Josh? Look, the reason why a lot of people don't get Trump is because they haven't, they haven't read his book or something. Like, while being unpredictable, he's extremely predictable, because if you understand the art of the deal, it's like a five-step process almost. You start with an extreme position to create a room for compromise. Canada is the 51st state. Beautiful state. My terrible Trump impersonation. Step two, you use attention-grabbing statements like that, and you push that narrative further, and that way you control the narrative. And it puts the other side on defense as well. So we're going to fire the chairman. Everyone's talking about it now. Now all of a sudden, it's a thing. And then you create a sense of urgency and pressure, so the other side starts making concessions. And we can see this play out with the tariffs and why they're being switched around to try to make the deal. And then you keep the other side guessing about your true intentions and the bottom line. And then the last thing is you are willing to walk away if the deal doesn't meet your standards. And that's probably the most important one. And once you understand that, Trump becomes extremely predictable because it plays out every time the same thing. And all these people, I mean, America has been the defense of the world, defending all shipping lanes for every single country, for free, for years. And I'm going to take my anarcho-capitalist hat off and just be a status for a minute. But if my tax payers were funding the global security for years and years and years, meanwhile, all of these countries have been charging us tariffs and non-financial tariffs, like especially Europe. Like a really strong non-financial tariff is, every time you get something from America, you have to actually walk down to the tax, it's called in Germany. And you have to sit in this shitty room for like an hour while they look through your parcel and they decide how much it's worth. And then you've got to pay the tax. And eventually you just never do that again. Because it's just annoying. So you buy on just local, like within the EU. So, and then you've got a 10% flat tax with a VAT. For Australia, you've got 15% GST. And so, there's, America's been ripped off. They're very good people. They're friendly, nice, lovely people. They're too good for their boots because everyone's been taken a piss from from Americans for years. And meanwhile, they're protecting all the shipping lanes there. Billions and billions and billions of dollars, which is, which is equates to a literal thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars per American taxpayer every year. And they still get ripped off. And now, it's just doing less than reciprocal, less than what they were, you know, if China's charging 67%, they'll do 30% and all hell breaks loose. Like, come on, give me a break. America needs to be treated fairly. And I think also, if there was a water breakout and America doesn't have their own rare earths, they don't have their own manufacturing base at all, we, how can we expect America to actually defend anybody for more than two weeks? Because they are, they can't. They can't. There's just not enough production for them. I mean, you look at in the second world war, all car factories, all factories turned into armament factories and turned into the war machine. America has no war machine. They got a hell of a lot of money from selling bonds and getting into debt. They got a $36 trillion debt. They're going to collapse. But John, that debt is part of the war machine. I'm not sure you're quite getting the insidious brilliance of the debt. They got the Chinese to buy the debt. The idea of the global order, the Bretton Woods agreement and so on and so forth is that through trade, through interconnectedness, that we wouldn't have to have another great war, right? Because if they attack you and you attack them, it destroys their interests as well as your interests. In that way, the Chinese owning all this American debt means they can't destroy America. America is something they own. America, there's no way they could actually protect anybody for more than a little while because they don't have to. They can't always be strong because they were interconnected. The no country had ever with two McDonald's who both have McDonald's had ever gone to war against each other, which unfortunately is not so great anymore because we find out now they just removed the McDonald's and go to war two weeks later. But the idea is a strong idea. If we're interconnected by trade, if you can't make your weapon systems with my rare earth and the other side can't make their weapon systems with my computers, then together we can make weapon systems. But if we both had a real war, not just one of these cool wars where we stack weapon systems and never have to use them, but we get to test them all the time, which are like the best possible outcome. China isn't buying sheep from America, never has. That's why I'm worried, George. You said you had the... It's not really what you wanted. It's one side of the deal and you were going to have this extreme reaction where you know, blitzkrieg in and everyone gets afraid. And then while they're afraid, you make a sweet deal with them. China doesn't seem to be afraid. I worry about the plan. What do we do if China is not afraid? Man, you don't censor your entire citizenry because you're totally confident in them. You censor them because they're absolutely scared of the billions of people. And they are running scared because they're running. A lot of these factories are now empty. They're not being able to push product. Docks are absolutely full of crates and containers that aren't going anywhere. The citizenry will get pissed off eventually and they'll backfire. America is a massive, massive middle class consumer. The biggest in the world, bigger than any country combined in Asia, which is unbelievable because Asia has far more people. Yet America can somehow consume more. They're net all of them. It's wild. And that goes the same for Europe. So nobody has the purchasing power. The buyer is the one that can walk away. When you go to a kaiyad, who's holding the cards, the buyer of the card or the seller? No, the buyer does. They can walk away from the seller and go to the next seller. And the only big part that stops that is the fact that it takes a little while to build up your factories or to move factories somewhere else, specifically with things like that, that are so high tech. China's taken years to get the skill sets they need to build chips and all this stuff. And their craftsmanship has gone up. Remember, everyone remembers when stuff from China was really bad quality. Now it's top quality because they've gotten this skill. So it is going to take time to re-skill other countries. But we've got the mix of robotics and AI. Now that will actually take up the laboral skill sets of a lot of countries that don't have that labor. We're literally a year or two away from seeing bipedal humanoid robots taking over factories in most Western countries again and bring that manufacturing base. And we will turn instead of having work, everybody will be that the economy will be turned into an equity economy where you have to own equity in the companies that run the robots. And that's how you make money. Equity is the future of work. And this is all happening because of these tariffs is reshaking the global workforce from one massive monolith. China makes too much stuff for everybody. We have to bring some of it back home. We just have to, it's not, it doesn't work. They are really good at making stuff though, Josh, aren't they? They are amazing at it. Absolutely phenomenal. The Chinese are phenomenal people. But what they've done, it's phenomenal. The, it's a very good point because the China bubble was something which was widely spoken about, say five years ago, that there was a lot of money being poured into infrastructure and all these massive empty apartment complexes. And you're right. I think that the US do have a really strong hand in that they are the buyers of Chinese products and Chinese goods. And I think we're just going to have to kind of sit back and watch these two titans battle it out on the world stage. But it is interesting that the concept that, because true self-interest, and this is the Adam Smith self-interest is that you improve the wealth and prosperity of everyone around you because it improves your own security. And that's what the goal was after World War II was, okay, well, we make everyone richer and then we kind of help all these economies scale. But then of course, there's this, and I suppose there's something which wasn't predicted after World War II because it was a way off in the future. But what happens when those economies then supersede the economy, which is nurture that economy and helped it grow. And then that economy suffers because the daily is their manufacturing base and whatever else. But yeah, ultimately like America is a super wealthy country and the Chinese need self-to-America. And their economy, I think you're totally right, I think the Chinese economy isn't as strong as people assume. And there was more talk years ago, a few years ago about the China bubble. And I think it's still, you know, the economy could implode in on itself. So it's not like it has a war chest. And it could spend years kind of sitting in stalemate with the US. Like it needs to probably strike a deal at some point. And Trump probably knows all this stuff. And yeah, totally like in a more choppy geopolitical world, it does make sense that you have the resources and the infrastructure to be able to actually defend against a potential world war. So it's quite scary stuff though. There's not going to be China and America. There's no way they'll go into a hot war. There's too much destruction. And Chinese aren't religiously motivated, which generally turns the hot war is more than more than just trade wars. I will say it's quite funny. Like you know when you hear Trump talk about, he's like, you're like, oh, I'm going to do my bad Trump impression. He's like, how many Cadillacs have they got in Berlin? Oh, I've got Cadillacs in Berlin. And if you've seen the size of a Cadillac, like imagine trying to drive that round Berlin, you f**k. Make better products. Make products which everyone else can use. You can't drive a Cadillac anywhere else in the world apart from on these massive American roads. And then like, you know, your agriculture as well, like stop f**king pumping steroids into all you meet. And then the F course will import it and use it. But so they've also got to make better products. So yeah, well, again, this is this is why the right wing is actually the new left. They're the ones the right wing are the ones talking about organic farming, talking about being more on the land, talking about proper ways of health. The left have gone total weird and moved away from this sort of stuff. So it's for me, it's a strange paradigm shift that's happened. But it is. Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure about that part, but I do want to note here that what Josh is selling as a positive and what Trump seems to be accelerating with tariffs is truly a horrifying position for labor. And maybe the last grass that might even prove the communist manifesto. Ben, what do you think here of the idea that the capitalist pigs have just said they're using labor until they can replace labor with robots, then they will fire all of labor. Even if the trick, the final joke is being pulled on the Chinese laborer, which right are the other, the not us laborer because the US laborers are already gone. It is it's a funny joke on the US labor where it's like we're going to bring remember your jobs that we sent to China 10 years ago. We're going to bring those back. We're not going to give those to you. We're going to give you to robots and AI and engineers who are going to develop them. But isn't it the absolute like Karl Marx, like the reason he was telling the labor to revolt is that they would do this to them. I mean, so the, yeah, I mean, so the, I mean, if you talk about the communist manifesto, that was a piece of rock. We have propaganda and the worst thing Marx ever did was and he have tried his hardest to avoid laying out a roadmap for how a transition to a different form of production would happen because he, I think, instinctively knew that people would then use that as an excuse to to oppress people which they then went and did and he shouldn't have done it because he then talked about this revolution in the proletariat and he had the bread proxy and then he had the US started and Mao and everything else because you try and force that thing to take place and to happen. But yeah, Marx absolutely spoke about, I mean, capitals all about the great things which capitals and does, you know, and the first half of the communist manifesto is all about the prosperity which capitals and brings about. But in his historical materialist analysis of private capital, he said that there was some contradictions within private capital, i.e., the major one that you automate everything to the point that you no longer have workers who can buy the things. And if you don't have workers, you can buy either thing. So if you're the way in which you create things is based on workers building things, being paid, buying new things, then if there's no workers who are being paid to buy the new things, then how do you produce new things? And then this is why he was like, well, that's when everything will probably change and at that point in time he said it will probably happen in Germany because they're the most advanced capitalist society in US, the Russia took this and they were largely the poorest country and then they tried to enforce on the people who are absolutely horrendous. But I do think there is, you know, there's wisdom in there that there are some contradictions within how we produce things currently, well, ultimately, like the robots are going to make all the things. I don't think it's going to be bad for humanity because there's been examples of civilizations which have existed before which didn't produce, they didn't have a work, but they didn't work. So like the ancient Greece as an example, the ancient Greek as an example, two thirds of the population were a slave class and they were the ones who produced all the things and the other thirds sat around having orgies coming up with science and philosophy and eating grapes. So I think it's possible that humanity can try and send that type of work and labor. There'll always be jobs for people, of course. And there's some occupations which can't be replaced by robots anytime soon. But yeah, like totally, like it's a brand new world and society is going to change. At some point, like the robots are going to make most of the stuff and there's going to be a lot of displaced workers and you're going to figure out how those people buy stuff. No, we don't have to figure that. It's been happening for years and the truth is that most people, like for years, there's been really expensive cars. And in the early days, no one had them. No one spent 100K on a freaking car. Now so many people have expensive cars, some believe it. Why? Because the equity markets in the last years have been a boom and most common folk have started buying equity in companies. So you buy equity in companies that have all the robots. You buy equity companies that fix robots. You have equities in companies that do the manufacturing and you get a dividend from that work. And so that's the future of income. There still has to be liquidity that moves around. There still has to be a proof of work somewhere. But and there has to be value from the rare earth. Or even if it's not rare, if it's the raw material iron, or that's still cost to get, because it's a scarce amount. But things like UBI, we've seen UBI fail on mass very easily. We had two steamy chicks out of America and the amount of inflation from just that is insane. Imagine doing that on a weekly. It would just drive every currency to zero. And we can see it just play out in the crypto market too. As soon as you just create a coin where anybody can have let's say on mass, every single person on earth gets your crypto coin minted every week. You know what, your crypto coin will be worth very quickly zero. So it's UBI is a joke. It doesn't work. You're just enslaved people. And the future is equity. I think you're definitely onto something. But I would say that we have a wealth of resources. And there's no reason that every human on the planet can be fed and happy enough. But the way in which resources are allocated is going to be impacted by the fact that the things are going to be made by robots at some point. I don't think it's anything we need to worry about anytime soon. That there's still going to be plenty of jobs for people, but more and more displaced workers are going to get displaced. And people aren't going to be able to win wages. And then you need to figure out how those people feed themselves. But there's a sands of money in the anarchist. Had a great quote, which is soon the art of governing them will be at an end. And a new art replace it, the art of administering things. And I kind of feel that that's the age in which we're moving into. And it's probably, I mean, not not a UBI, but maybe, I don't know, fuck out of my clue, I work, I'll like someone to stop talking now. But things are going to change. I agree with that half of what Ben said. I think it's going to happen fast. And I disagree with Josh. I do think we're going to need UBI. I think we're going to need to pay people to keep them from wrecking the machines, which is what Vonnegut wrote in player piano, which he wrote when he was working at General Electric. And they're having all these ideas that ended up launching all this in the world. And I think in the same way, I wonder, though, is the United States even the right country for these robots? It seems like the inputs, the raw materials, the raw earth, as well as other things are in China. So you'd have to get the inputs, move them to the United States, have the robots build the things mean what? I know. I know. But we're at the level kind of revolt coming up from China. If we take all their jobs and give them to these United States robots, I think there's hordes of people running around. I think we're going to have to pay them to stay home like player piano. There was there was there is also this this interesting concept of wage labor. So like labor historically wasn't restricted to just wage labor. So now we, you know, we go, we work, we get paid and then we go by the things. But for most of human history, labor was, you know, you're attending to your crops or whatever and you're building your house and you're doing whatever else. And then there was a good period when we moved from sort of the surf and feudalist societies to wage labor societies. The wage labor was seen as akin to slavery. Like it was seen as, you know, like a form of of of, was chattel chattel chattel. I want to say chattel chattelry. Is that the right word? When you pay someone to do something, you make them into that thing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's so that it that's also worth noting that we've all got this kind of skewed perception on on how labor works. Whereas I think humans may, you know, do still do what we're still going to build stuff. We're still going to make things and we're still going to grow things and do things. But I think maybe our relationship will wagerly was going to change a little bit. Maybe wage labor will become less will get paid more. But there's certainly enough resources for everyone to be fed and happy. And that's the most, you know, and liberated. And that's the most important part, isn't it? And I do think it's important to talk about these ideas on both sides of how it could go and to think it out as a thought experiment going back to that great book foundation where as soon as they start about talking about psycho history and the fall of the foundation and the fall of the galactic empire, it seems like it's a fate of complete. And in the same way with Bitcoin, it seemed like this cipher punk ridiculous idea that was just very small. And then you looked on it in and on again, and it was much bigger and you looked in it on again, it was much bigger. And it's just growing like out of control. And I think that's what sailor needs to understand is that growth is what we need to encourage that cipher nature. Anything that makes Bitcoin more cipher, we need to encourage anything that makes it more like digital gold and boring and words like ossification, turning it into bone. Bad. We need to not do that. Cipher thinks good. Many could be the, you know, the mundane stuff, the stuff which people don't want to do like the cleat, the cleat, the, the, the, the, the mind numbing stuff is automated. But there is always going to be room for human, you know, a human to sit down with a guitar and sing a song in front of a bunch of other humans and then they pay them. Like that's all because it is something you're expressing. I'm going to know Ben. The intro to this show was generated by AIs. And they make a bad note. There's like a clam in there. And I can't fix it because I can't just say, do a second rehearsal because it's an AI and that's already happened. But this is our, you know, this is our digital world. Like we should expect that that's going to be mostly the computer doing that shit. But the real world, which we go and live in, our material reality, like we're still going to go want to buy a coffee off someone who's making a cup of coffee for us. We're still going to want to. I know that music. Artists are created by another human. They've got robot. They've got coffee and they shake it and they've got the arms. And those aren't even the ones to watch out for. The ones that are, they watch out for that are behind the scenes. In the old days when the waitress would go get your drink saying a casino, there'd be a bar tender back there who would make the drink. Now it's more like filling up a soda. You push like rum and coke and put your glass in and it comes out and you just take it to the floor and that's a robot. Well, the photo copy is a great example. The photo copy. People before the photo copy thousands and thousands and thousands of students used to be sitting in warehouses, re-dupping documents. Photo copy, it comes along. All gone. And what did they do? They moved to McDonald's. But generally speaking, there has in the past been other places to go. But the first workers that are going are all mind workers. And you generally humanity went from the farms into the cities to be mind workers. And now AI, the first one is going to be mind workers when one person using AI can replace 10 people not using AI. And so that's where it starts. Then robotics comes later. But it's going to come in swaths really quickly. And then we get a start rate utopia with replicators and we just get the federation. We all go from explore space because we've ended a war and we have the Bitcoin and we engage with the into into planet tree monetary system. And we'll be good. So start rate utopia. That's what we call Ben half glass full. Ben. Unfortunately, Ben in the Star Trek reality before they had the utopia, they had a horrible eugenics war that wiped out the whole planet. And then they rebuilt it into utopia with the help of the world. Yeah, but Star Trek is interesting because if you look at the original 70 Star Trek, it was very utopian. And then if you look at model and Star Trek, it gets darker and darker. And then the federation becomes this corrupt political blob, which is actually you need to fight against as opposed to the federation in the 70 Star Trek being this glorious propala for humanity to go and explore the interstellar space. But it shows that we kind of lost our you know, we lost our enthusiasm all. That's like guys. Yeah. All the guys changed. So the Zeitgeist became more pessimistic. That's the most important thing. Adam Curtis, BBC documentary, The Power of Nightmares and see how that happened. But I'd also say Ben that happened to Star Wars as well. I suffered through the acolyte recently. And while creating a lot of new fun random ideas in Star Wars, it also has this general idea that the Jedi are bad, that the government is bad, that you cannot trust authority figures. And the Jedi were always good before. And they also had sense. They could sense what was going to happen. They had that whole like ability to see people. They completely lose that in the past. It's very strange. Yeah, but it made the LGBT community feel much more wanted. I mean, that stuff was all weird. But the main thing that was weird to me is that the Jedi couldn't sense things. And that was very strange. Like that they were, I don't know if they were fake Jedi or what it was, but you know, you walk up to them and like, surprise. And it's like, well, you don't even need the Jedi to be that. You could be a samurai. And you could be like, well, I'm kind of on my guard all the time, because I'm a samurai. And I carry a sword. But instead it was like, I'm not on my guard. I don't even notice when people break free from tables or from restraints and let alone like massive conspiracies or entire groups of forced sensitive people on a planet that one would think one could sense. I think the moral of the story is as soon as any franchise goes too long, they screw it up. I just look at the last matrix or the last, uh, terminator, like the last matrix, all of a sudden, the, uh, Trinity could do all the things that Neo could, why? Who? What happened there? I thought Neo was the one. Say with arch, the latest terminator. Oh my god. What did you say? And then the latest terminators, I pretend they don't even exist. I believe in any after like two or whatever. But uh, you're right. You're right. The power of nightmares by Adam Curtis is a great documentary, but it talks about the, the game theory markets and the humans are encouraged to be rational like rational players in that they don't trust anybody. And uh, we, you know, we are all victims of our circumstance and our environment and our psychology has changed, which I think we see reflected in some of those shows. But going forward, I think there's certainly two versions, you know, one of the multiple versions, but there's two major strands of a future. One of them is a, a dystopia where um, we're all just fucking plugged into VR and we're batteries and the matrix and whatever else. The other one is a dystopia where humans control, uh, and take ownership over things like technology. And one of the best bringing it back to pitcoin, one of the best tools to do that is public key cryptography, while we can prove that we're humans, where a show can't be spoofed by AI. It's actually humans like translating stuff and then talking about it from the human perspective, which doesn't itself have value and can't, you know, can be made synthetically in spoof, but it isn't the same thing. And um, personally, you know, I think we should all be aiming for that utopia where every human has access to public key cryptography, and we're fucking reforestation planet alternate to eWox and then occasionally get on a spaceship and fly off into the solar cellar space and make with blue aliens with crazy things coming out of the heads, like a captain Kurt. I'm all in. I do think it was one of the Adam Curtis documentaries Ben where he talked about FU buddy, and he said that John Nash, who was a mathematician and a beautiful mind and all that, uh, he was a schizophrenic and he thought the worst about people and he thought the world was out to get him. And that was his worldview and what they did in the, you know, 60, 70s, when they brought him in is they adopted his worldview. And they said that the Soviet enemy must be the worst people and they must be doing all the worst things that we would be doing because that's what we would be doing. And they imagined this worst possible version of the world. And in a way, that seems what has taken over that the old idealism and maybe even techno idealism has been placed by this like worst possible view. John Nash is, I mean, John Nash is, you know, I think he's a very valid Satoshi, but the, the, um, he later on in life, deeply regretted the, the, the, um, what's it, what's it called? The game theory, which was applied to markets, the equilibrium theory, which was applied to markets on self-interest, he deeply regretted that, and talked about something he called a mind on strike, which is when you put humans in that kind of adversarial environment that their minds don't actually work properly. And, uh, yeah, so, so he, I mean, everyone should do the deep dive on, on John Nash. And, uh, and, and of course, on ideal money, and we spoke about before on the show and how the guy was obsessed with money, um, wrote about ideal money, um, and, uh, that wasn't covered in that film, the beautiful mind, which in itself is some weird, run Howard, piece of propaganda, he's probably a spook. Um, but yeah, everyone should research John Nash. Should we move on to the, the next subject, or we'll just keep going. I think we're going to move on to the exit question going all the way back to the president and chairman, uh, Powell of the Federal Reserve, uh, Josh Shagala, will the president of the United States fire the chairman of the Federal Reserve? Yes or no, and can he fire the chairman? Yes or no? No, but he can put a lot of pressure. Ben Ark, will he fire him? Can he fire him? I mean, yeah, man, like, um, I saw Liz trust in Bedford, uh, lettuce, Liz trust. And, um, she was at the conference there. And, uh, I was actually giving up my buy Bitcoin stamps to all to everybody. And then the secret service came over to me and said, can you not give out the buy Bitcoin stamps? Because people might throw them at Liz trust. Uh, and I was like, that makes me want to give them out more that people are going to throw them at Liz trust. But in the UK, we had Liz trust and she broke the economy. We just fucking, we got rid of her after three days. You can't do that with Trump. Like, the president of the United States has a lot of power. And yes, he probably could fire, um, Powell. I mean, he just, he's like a king. I mean, I hope Josh is right that there's some method to the madness. And actually, the, the, the, the, the value may well be. I believe that no, he will not fire the chairman and no, he cannot fire the chairman, but Josh is right. He could make it uncomfortable. He could run a public relations campaign. He could call him names, uh, all that kind of thing, which, uh, didn't used to be such a problem. But if you could disappear people into camps and so forth, uh, to store their families, maybe be a problem. Maybe he'd resign. Maybe he'd like be like these law firms. He's like, well, just roll over. Let you scratch our belly. But we're running out of time. So we're going to move on to the exit question or the prediction. Go ahead, Josh. She go with a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. Um, I've, yeah, I don't know. It'll all be good. Don't worry about it. All just sats keep going. But yeah, I guess so many people, they're so upset about this and that and the other thing. I mean, how does it actually affect your life? Like, think about your life. Is it effective? This is politics affecting your life directly right now. No, get on with it. Get on with actually protecting and building wealth, protecting your family, uh, you know, building a family. Just stop. Like politics can also be a massive distraction. A lot of the time where you think it has so much effect on your life, but it really doesn't just keep building, keep hobbling, keep spending, spend building and, uh, and chill. All right. Let's go to Ben Arc for a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead, Ben. Yeah, I couldn't say it better. I'm I'm gonna agree with my fellow panelists here that just, uh, exist in your material reality. Don't freak out too much online and, um, yeah, just, all you can do is, uh, eight hundred million of the tools, pardon? 600 billion. Six six six six hundred six hundred billion. And, uh, yeah, I mean, we got the some scene in my soap shop where we're making soap. And that's been a nice little, uh, side gig alongside the developing and, you know, material reality stuff, like actually making a thing, overall products. So I think it's somebody, the robots can't do this, you know, like, I'm AI proofing myself. So, um, yeah, I'm gonna agree with Josh. Don't freak out. You could just imagine though what the value of microstrategy would be if Bitcoin was worth 600 billion dollars. And the way for that to happen is for them to support LNBITs and other projects like this to make Bitcoin into a real currency, global currency that anyone can use to do anything at any time. And they could fund that and make their company worth X times 600 billion, right? They have X, but X Bitcoin and 600 billion dollars at the value. Unfortunately, we have more stories. There are update stories. Hawk to a girl, Haley Welsh says the SEC closed its investigation into a crypto meme coin that crashed 95% hours after launch. They're not gonna pursue any charges or monetary sanctions. Really quick, Josh, what do you think? Hawk to a off-Scott free? You can just raise money. You probably spat on someone's fellace. I don't know. Hawk to a set free. Anyone can just raise money now and and rug it. It's cool. I mean, President's doing the exact same thing. So what you're gonna do, you know what I mean? You can't go after her because then you'll have to go after himself. It's a bit different. Let's keep the issues going. Josh, we got one more for you. Incredible things happen during the height of Tiffany Fong, crypto influencer who interviewed SPF visiting him several times at home, petting his dog. She earned $21,000 on Twitter for a couple of weeks. It was really sweet. Elon Musk followed her and so did a lot of other people. But then Elon Musk allegedly sent her a direct message asking her if she was interested in having her child. She later told people about this and decided not to, at which point he stopped following her and she lost her money. There was also an article in the Wall Street Journal saying that he's quote, raising a legion of babies with many different baby mommas. Josh Legala, it involves crypto because of SPF and Tiffany Fong. What do you think about the in decent proposal that came into her Twitter DMs allegedly? Man, there's a lot worse. Like, you should know, there's a lot worse in life than saying, hey, you want to have Elon Musk's child, another one? I just love how all of his ideas are like me in high school. He's like, I'm the smartest person in the world. I should have a thousand babies with beautiful women. It's insane. That's what he just, no, that's what the wall street Journal says because he was the Wall Street Journal running and he must have on, which is how I feel. Same thing in high school when I was a young lad reading I'm Rand and so forth. He's John Galt. He is that important, Josh. He should have a thousand babies and he should have a little radio network when he needs to activate them. He's like, activate the legend number S. One come to me. It's Dr. Evil. He has number two. He has no emotions. He's very powerful. He's very rich. It's a real, and it's just numbering the babies. It's numbering them, Josh. Well, lettering them. I don't know about it. He's lettering them. But good on him. If you got enough money to have a thousand babies, why not? We are, I mean, there does need to be some more kids in the world. It's like every Star Trek villain. It's con-noody and sing and in mass breeding. It's all the 19th century ideas are back. You know what they're going to bring back next frenology. They're going to start measuring the shape of your skull to see what your emotions are. Ben, Ark, what do you think Elon Musk is allegedly sending out messages and has goals of having a thousand baby mommas. It's a dream. I mean, so I mean, he has a bond villain. He's like a good bond villain. You're like the moon-ray-cigoo guy where he has public support and then he's got the spaceships and he's got the internet and he's got all the things. He has a bond villain. But I mean, I tried the same tactic on Noster and I was measuring people and I was like, if you have my baby, then I'll follow you or whatever. I played in C-Mex. I'm what the fuck? It was. Hey, Ben, that's a big monster. That's like, you know, 50 shades of gray. You turn the guy. Let's take away the money in the helicopters just to normal, like, poor dude. He just turns and took, I've got this secret room where I whip you. You just turn into a freak. But, you know, the women see him as some amazing romantic because he's got heaps of cash. He's also, so like, this is like a horror movie. This rich guy starts messaging you like, you should have my baby and join my legion. But because he's, you know, wealthy, it's cool. No, but there is this like interesting phenomenon, like the Dorsey. So if you go to any Dorsey, if you go to any conference where Dorsey is, so I've been to a couple with the Noster stuff. And there's like a couple that doesn't stalk us, who follow him around all over the world. And they seem like normal people, you know, you speak to them, then normal enough. And then suddenly they start speaking. They start doing crazy stalker speak. They're like, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, I think he's secretly messaging me, like sending all these cues out in his messages. He puts on Noster about how he wants to have my babies. And it's a really interesting phenomenon. And I think what it is is kind of the silverback. So if I'm sure that like, as the king of the social media, he's like the silverback of the social media, that he does have many women who, well, he would happily father his child. And then maybe he just, you know, tried it, you know, he sends the message out, but she mail has a bot sends it out to everybody asking if they want to be impregnated. And then this one made it public. But yeah, I mean, like that's one of the great things about Noster is it is, you know, baby ship resistant, I guess. You could put out your message there about how you want to build your herm on Noster. No one can censor you or stop you. And at the core of this, Ben, and it's all silverback, son Noster, we're all just working to having to go back and explain to people these 19th century ideas that you might have not read because the books are old and smelly and full of dust. This is a eugenics program. This is social Darwinism. And that was all code words for racism. And they want to preserve the white line and so forth. This guy comes from South Africa. It seems like he's pretty straightforward about what I do, what I do like about more bros. It's good. So what the hell? Some, some things, some things, trying to race nonsense in their do. I think that it's unmistakable. Part of it when you say that like your genes have to be carried on because you're so intelligent. No, I think it's I think it's no, no, no, I actually actually think it's from a different angle. And I like it actually. So a lot of technologists like Bill Gates, they have this very mouthfulsian outlook on humanity, which is that there's too many humans, you know, like the classic scrooge quote of, you know, that they should stop reading and the surplus population and all this and it was a very old and redundant view of humanity that there's too many humans on the planet and that's the problem. You get rid of the humans. Whereas the reality is we need more humans because if we have enough humans and if they're building enough cool stuff, then you know, you create prosperity and everything else. And I think that he's just trying to do his part by making more humans and I actually think that ideologically it comes from an okay place. It's not it's not like some white supremacy thing. It's more that he's like anti-malfusian, which I like and I don't like Bill Gates' stance on that because it's very much actually is the opposite. So like the Bill Gates stance is if you look at like emerging economies, they're the ones who have larger birth rates. And then when you have like more progress economies, generally birth rates tends to drop and then you end up like in Italy for example, we have negative birth rates and then and then you have this aging population and like no one's working and building the things. And I think he almost very rightly appreciates that you need the young people to build the things. So it's the opposite Thomas. It's anti-racist. Yeah, I agree. Well, I hope so and I give him the benefit of the doubt. I think we're skating close to those ideas. Also from a very legitimate perspective, we do need smart people. We do need smart babies. A thousand Elon Musk assuming that he's smart and I'm not sure about that. But if he had a genius IQ level and that does pass down through genetics, we need more people with genius IQ level pass down through genetics. So let's agree with that. Unfortunately, we have more stories. I think this one will be short. Maybe Ben will comment on it. Ross Olbrecht, the inventor of the Silk Road, allegedly, has joined Noster, the decentralized social media protocol for people who value freedom, neutrality and agency. I love the first comment down here by potatoes puree at mashed potato zero, zero, he says more isolated than prison. Ben, our Ross is on Noster. Just a brief comment. Go ahead. I mean, I think it's really cool because obviously we came up with what originally Noster was, you know, like it was an idea for like a sensory resistant marketplace. I'm trying to say, I'm not trying to solve the market problem, but you know, it does help solve the time market problem. And one of the the nips we made, the Noster improvement proposals, we made primarily, but I mean, I got it started, but Vlad Stan finished it off and made actually work with the Noster market. So I'm I'm interested to see, I'm not sure how public Ross could be on commenting on it, but I'm interested to see what his opinion is on the marketplace, Noster improvement proposals that are possibilities, sorry, that are for marketplace, such as Nip 15. He needs, there's far away from that as possible. Yeah, he needs to stay as far away from that as possible. We can go to the ice walks. On one part of it, I see what Ben's saying. I'm like, we should get that. We should get the Ben idea of the what it died on Ali a marketplace where you can sell anything Noster and open network Bitcoin Lightning payments, all of these ideas together. We should push that up to his door and try to get him to support you Ben, but at the same time, Josh is right, he should be taking walks and walks. Yeah, it's more like intellectually, I want to, you know, I would be very interested to see his take on it and to hear his take on it. But yeah, absolutely, he shouldn't. He shouldn't do any of that shit. They should just have a good life. I agree, I agree with Josh. Let's hope he just joins and then doesn't comment that much. Take some time off for us, old man. We have one more story. I just always want to cover these to try to warn people how crooks convinced her to put $17,500 into Bitcoin ATM to quote, secure her money from the Detroit free press and these articles just keep coming back. They keep getting larger and larger. People are being ripped off by these scammers who keep you on the phone and tell you they've kidnapped your relatives or you need to pay tax penalties or you're an old lady and they've just tricked you. They have you put all your money in a Bitcoin ATM. So friends don't let friends do this. Try to tell your relatives. Keep track of people, put some controls on Josh. What do you think about this story? We talk about a lot, but just worth mentioning again. Yeah, in fact, this is a charity I'm setting up. Not a charity. It's a philanthropic foundation to set up to warn people of scams and what scams are quite specifically elderly because it's a real problem and it's going to get worse with AI. People can clone your kids voice with one 30 second clip if that 10 seconds and some elderly don't even remember their kids voice all of a sudden they hear, this is your boy, I need 100 bucks and then it turns into a thousand and then it's like draining the entire retirement fund. It's going to get worse. It's going to get worse because they don't understand it and these people need to be educated. Education is the solution. Not not laws because these scammers are already breaking a million laws. They don't care about laws. You have to educate the people that are suffering at the hands of this not this terrible terrible scourge on society and it's only going to get worse with AI. Definitely teach your parents, have a family password, say to your parents, if I ever call you asking for money, this is the password I will use. You ask me for that password because it's probably not going to be me. If my phone falls in the toilet, I'm going to come to your door and tell you that I've changed my number. I'm not going to SMS you from a new number and stuff like that. Just teach them what scams are like because it's just going to get worse. The IRS is not going to call you on the phone and I'm going to ask for Amazon. Worse and worse. There's been one I saw recently. It was AI pictures of Brad Pitt and it was him in like a hospital gown and him and you know distress and you'd want to help Brad out and he's asking you for money even though he has such great resources but you know you just can't unlock them right now. These like you say are just proto versions of this scam. The scam is going to get better and better and better. It's going to be videos asking you to send Brad money and it won't be Brad. It would be your cousin or your cousin's sister or whatever. Let's just keep an eye on this. Everybody try to not lose so much money. Now on to the end of the show where I was going to talk about movies. I want to I wanted to quickly comment on the movies. I wanted to quickly cover it on that because actually so I was listening to a podcast from our good friend Vlad from the Bitcoin takeover podcast. No. I was listening to an interview he did with Phil Zimmerman and in it Phil Zimmerman talks about because obviously the Bitcoin takeover podcast is I mean like I think honestly Vlad is one of the best journalists who have a Bitcoin is phenomenal but he did an interview with Phil Zimmer. Very good interview. Everyone should check it out on the the Bitcoin takeover podcast. In it Phil Zimmerman talks about how he's a bit of a telephony geek and he's using PGP for encrypting phone calls and he has some software and he's been playing around with it. That's the kind of way one of his major interests is as easy as yeah one of his major interests. I actually emailed Phil Zimmerman earlier today on that very point in the more and more spoofing of voices and soon video is going to be you know you can get AI to spoof a voice and then in real time pretend to be someone else just like Josh was saying and I was asking him whether in the stuff he's building with PGP beyond just encrypting data whether he's looking into sort of verifying that the source is from a certain public key in that as we move into this brave new world of AI and nothing's real on the internet and we all need to prove that we're human beings. Could you use something like an osteopublic key sign a little packet of data whether it be on a telephone call or whether it be in a video call to say yes this is actually me you know rather than some AI generated thing by some scammer and I actually emailed Phil Zimmerman on this exact topic earlier today. My first my first reach out to old Phil so let's see what's the bug. But no it's cool Josh. I gotta let my dog out. He's really begging me for to go outside. I'm saying. But no that's really cool Ben Phil Zimmerman from PGP who is on Vlad show. Congratulations Vlad shout out. Incredible get PGP incredible software back. But we're going to talk about movies anyway you can't stop me it's the end of the show. I watched some great movies this week real classics like PCU holy grail and state and main but I'm not going to talk about those movies. I'm going to talk about the new movies that I watched because I'm branching out into the movies that I have not seen and I watched this is the Tom Green documentary on Amazon Prime video. It was written and directed by Tom Green and it was fantastic. You might only know Tom Green is like the gross out guy who does these goofy stunts but beyond the goofy stunts he was an incredible innovator in broadcasting. He broadcasted one of the first web shows from his home originally he did cable access and was just working with video cameras from the beginning and his his broadcasting helped inspire Joe Rogan creating the Joe Rogan show. He was pretty much the world's first podcaster the world's first youtuber in a lot of ways and he does an incredibly introspective documentary which he directed himself which is a huge risk which he discusses in the very first scene with his mother where she says don't you think you're going to edit this in a strange way because you're editing it about yourself but a great film the Tom Green documentary on Amazon video 10 out of 10 just great stuff. Oh yeah that I watch that too I really like Tom Green I loved him for years and years he's great. Isn't it interesting though Josh that kind of duality of both someone like Tom Green and Howard Stern where people know them for the gross out stuff or the extreme stuff but if you look underneath it Tom Green has this dedication to David Letterman and this dedication to Johnny Carson and to the talk show format to interviewing people and he really brings that out throughout his career with the goofy stuff as well with the extreme stuff and the same for Stern. Yeah but I always think like that Joe Rogan never gave enough credit to Tom and I've always said this for the like because he Tom had the initial you know web of vision stuff and it was amazing back then I remember watching I think this is cool this is so cool it was all like on real player and stuff first internet streaming wild very very ahead of its time and a little bit mad you know it was absolutely legendary and what's even interesting is what he's doing now through the film of course you hear about how he he broadcast his cancer diagnosis and his cancer recovery and his surgery and everything like that is incredibly brave and to bring attention to that issue but now in another way he has this whole other interesting life that he's living called Tom Green Country another show on Amazon Prime Video and he's basically sold his Hollywood house and bought a farm in Canada where he used to live and now he's raising chickens and a bowl and a donkey and he really takes it at this very honest approach to it where it almost feels like I'm watching Mr. Rogers where somebody comes over to help him build the fence and he's like yeah my family's been building these fences around here for 200 years and Tom Green he's not going to build the fence we all know that but he's showing interest in it and he helps move some boards around but mainly he keeps highlighting these people in this very honest way of broadcasting them and broadcasting their lives and making them unique and also recording it for history which I like of course and he's still he's still doing it he's still innovating even in this barn it was amazing and the the second film I watched Josh I think you're going to like as well you might not have seen it yet Vitalik and Ethereum story I saw this come up on Apple video I keep an eye out when they put Apple video movies on sale I think it's a good deal and I bought it what an interesting documentary about Vitalik Booterin of course personal story aside I can't watch this without saying wow I met that guy three times he was in my car how strange is that and that keeps echoing throughout my mind is they're interviewing him but at the same time I get what a thoughtful person he is how how much he thought about decentralized technology and currency and what he wanted to do with it and then what he did spreading that idea going around and traveling making Ethereum from a white paper into a real thing and then making it a platform that later we'd launch my Curio cards on and I'd get to be a fun but small part of the Ethereum story a really interesting documentary obviously people in our audience might not like Vitalik and Booterin and Ethereum and so forth especially the price being down so horribly but Josh what do you think it's an interesting community over there to Ethereum it's a fascinating documentary yeah I um I really liked what I liked about Ethereum coming from Bitcoin where everyone was really throwing a lot of mod for scaling and they were you know Bitcoin's like let we need L2s we need L2s and then we have so much fighting about L2s on Ethereum they're like yeah cool let's build some L2s and they just just went ahead and did built built L2s and built heaps of them you know Bitcoin we've still only got the Lightning Network really um I'd like to see more experimentation on Bitcoin and more just let's just build it you know let's just see there is one argument that we don't want to you know break the the bottom layer which is very very true but now you can build L2s on Bitcoin so I'd like to see more of that but yeah I can't wait to see the the documentary and um let's see what it's all about and you know this is what I love what Ben's Ben's building with Alan Beats it's really building on L2 building out the technology making it uh making it easy and the UX easier because the UX and UI is what a lot of engineers don't think about enough and uh and it's it's it is the the most important thing this white apple did so well because Steve was just obsessed with the UI making it that you could open up this thing called a computer which was notoriously technical and make it that you don't even need a user manual and uh that's the North Star on L2s. Justing like he say Josh the negative reaction of Bitcoiners and the reaction in nature of it when we launched my Kerio cards I remember we we were it was difficult to even try to promote it because we were worried about it ruining our reputation that we had put a project on Ethereum and we didn't really think to reach out to if there was one I don't know if it was very big to the Ethereum community to see if they'd like it uh because we just assumed they'd hate it or they'd think we had Bitcoiners or were coming in and carpet bagging their project or whatever uh there was so much negativity and that's also what we got from the Pepe people. It wasn't like here's another NFT project this is cool it was like there should only be Pepe's you are making something that is not Pepe's therefore you are our enemy and your project should be destroyed and so forth and uh yeah a lot of the Bitcoin and that you know that we assume that tone and Jimmy and others would call us scammers for wanting to make these collectibles and wanting to support the artists and yeah I think that set us back in a lot of ways that that community that that idea whether real or not that perceived yeah that's right and it's interesting to see if I tell it go through that and much more as he deals with co-founders that he said were not good as it turned out and many other problems including Ukraine for which he takes a powerful political stance to support the people of Ukraine which I really respect him for and didn't know that much about and learned about in the documentary so check out Vitalik and Ethereum story it's on Apple movies anywhere and probably those other websites where you can download what you want it's been a really long episode but I want to thank everybody for sticking with us and for giving us a thumbs up down below for adding your own comments into the chat and into the comments that come up later I always go back and read those so thanks so much for joining us until next time bye bye