The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For over the last ten years, the Sharper's Satoshi's the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Arck from LNBITS. Even all? Josh Shigalla from thestandard.io. Oh well, if it is my favorite human. Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Hello, hello everyone. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one, issue one, Jack Muller's new company. It's called 21. Jack Muller's to lead Tether, Softbank, and Cantor Fitzgerald backed Bitcoin Treasury company called 21 Capital. It will launch with 42,000 Bitcoins. The company claims to be different from Michael Saylor's micro strategy, as it will also be focused on Bitcoin promotion. The Cantor stock skyrocketed 130% as people began buying the stock blindly under its old symbol, CEP, before it changes to its new symbol, 21. Hey, 21, I've heard of that before. I remember that. They had a cool logo. Has everyone forgotten 21? The company that wanted to put a Bitcoin miner in your toaster? That's right. They wanted to turn the internet into the blockchain and the world's largest stock market. They raised $120 million, and then we're going to make USB charging hubs, OEM routers, and toasters with Bitcoin chips inside. All they ended up releasing was a $400 raspberry pi that made everyone angry and all $120 million disappeared. So I'm not sure why you'd want to celebrate that name by bringing it back. But here we are. Some people are being very critical of the 21 company saying that it's a corporate exoskeleton for Tethers Global liquidity machine and that soft bank joins so they could get that 2,000 percent return on Bitcoin. Ben, ARK, what do you think of Jack's new company and their 42,000 Bitcoin? I think it's positive. I mean, so we're always criticizing MicroStrategy for not kind of contributing back to the ecosystem which actually gives Bitcoin its value and just benefiting financially from what we've spoken about in previous shows. And it's kind of a controversial subject because people like what they can do whatever they want. And that's true. But at the same time, there's lots of very free-nope resource projects. There's lots of projects within the industry which do need support and he has the back to support them. And by supporting those things, it also increases the value of Bitcoin so it actually increases their holdings and how much they're worth. But I guess that goes against the point of the MicroStrategy part in MicroStrategy. So I quite like it. I think Jack Malay is a good guy and he's always been very positive for Bitcoin. I think it's good that there's a similar type of company which people can invest in and then they also know that when they're investing in that company that some of those funds are going to go back to bolstering the ecosystem and making Bitcoin more useful. And I think that's a positive thing. I can see people's reservations on the tether connection but the reality is tether has huge bags. And I think the investment from tether is 1.6 billion which is going in, part of the 42,000 Bitcoin. And for them, I imagine they're just moving their Bitcoin from one wallet to another wallet onto the treasury of the company. But we need more MicroStrategy to exist. If this thing's going to exist, we need more of them to exist. And I do think it is, we're still quite early when it comes to these big institutional investment companies which have found that glitch in the system so that they can just keep buying Bitcoin holder on their balance sheet and then self-stocking their company and keep accumulating Bitcoin. So yeah, good luck to them, I say. Josh Shigala is Ben right. Do we need more MicroStrategy? Maybe an even more Bitcoin promoting one? The more the merrier. The thing is about Jack. I like him, just want to put that out there. He seems like a cool guy. But I just don't get where he came from. He suddenly this kid was suddenly everywhere all the time. Suddenly famous. He created one app that had a really nice interface. And suddenly he was the one getting Bukkeli to accept Bitcoin. Suddenly he was the one that was just always in the news CNBC like, oh, he is Jack Mallow's. Who is this kid? Where did he come from? Why is he so famous all of a sudden as a Bitcoiner? And yeah, he was very bullish on Lightning and Bitcoin. Like I said, I've met him once. He wouldn't remember me, but I did remember at a Lightning event. But I was a bit suspect when people just come out of the woodwork and out of nowhere. He was such a young kid. I suddenly had millions of VC capital in his firm and whatever this company was with this nice interface. And now this, like 42,000 Bitcoin, is this young guy? Yeah, I don't understand how people do it. I mean, I guess it's well connected. I think he had really well connected parents in banking or something. I'm not sure I don't quote me on that. Yeah, no, his granddad started the CME, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. They're like old Chicago money, heavily connected in that world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's that that helps? He was a Bitcoin mom too. So she had quite a sort of big following for a while in Bitcoin. And then when I think when he finished college, he just had access, a lot of access. Yeah, it just happened like born suddenly. Yeah, totally. Young, I was like, who is this kid? Where's he? What? Yeah. He called, right? It's strange for me. I'm taking care of $50 million in my VC fund. No, who are you, dude? Your voice hasn't broken yet. I love that he always does his interviews in his dressing room with no clothes in it. Not exactly. He's just moved in. His house is so big, he's got a whole room for a wardrobe, but not had time to buy the clothes yet. He needs a wife and a harrym of girlfriends to fill up his closets. Yeah, exactly, exactly. He needs to get some baby mommas. My internet. It's a very strange flex to have that empty room. And I feel strange in this one too, because I've known of Jack for a long time. Like Ben said, his mother was Bitcoin mom who follows me on Twitter and supported the mad Bitcoin's Patreon. And she used to talk about her son who would play speed chess and that he would write computer programs to play chess. And I was like, what an interesting guy. I love chess. Yeah. And it turns out, like Ben said, and I was going to try to mess with Josh's live. But yes, his grandfather was the chairman of the board of the Chicago board of trade and his father founded one of the largest futures brokerages in Chicago. So I guess it's mainly about connections. So that being said, hey, Jack, give us a give us a job. Sponsor the show. Sponsor the world crypto network. It's not too late. We haven't been incredibly critical of your new product yet. It's been five minutes. No, it's never too late. And I wouldn't that be nice. Give knocks a grant. Yeah. Like I said, I don't want to pick on the guy. That was me personally. I just didn't know. I don't know where he suddenly just popped out of nowhere and it was just on every news channel as this instant fame guy behind Bitcoin. But it makes sense. I think he played and he lent into that role. He leaned into the role of the American businesses. They always want the call of the entrepreneur and genius kid behind the company. And I think that was, yeah, that was part of the the projection, which I mean, was probably good for VC money. But yeah, for people as in Europe and other parts of the world is always a bit cringy. So yeah, I can see why you were like, you just kid. Why do you guys wish money? God damn it. Yeah, instantly. But beyond beyond that, take that part of him away. And he's still he's a nice enough easy guy. Yeah. And I liked that he really focused on lightning to get that was the, you know, the L2. And he did legitimately, you know, build the, the Zapp wallet, which was cool. Early on in Bitcoin, lightning, which was, you know, useful. Yeah. It is funny, though, how the number one strategy in international business is the pirate at 40 all by Bitcoin and hold them for you strategy. It seemed really simple. And then now it keeps spreading and metastasizing. And another reason I think in addition to his, you know, well known banking background. And I've even heard he's connected to Las Vegas casinos and all kinds of things, Josh, is I think the reason the Jack is so successful is he used to watch mad Bitcoin every day after school. That's what he told you come home from school, watch that mad Bitcoin. So that sounds pretty good to me. Victoria, what do you think about? I think you should. Jack's new company, 21 again. Did you really say that? Yep. He said every day he'd come home and watch mad Bitcoin's. Well, you were the only show to watch to be fair in 2016. There was nothing else. And I was the only one targeted towards children. No one else was teaching the children about Bitcoin, even now. Yeah. It's very true. Um, yeah, I mean, I'd, you know, to put a positive spin on it, I think given where the world is right now at this moment in time and the tools available, if you wanted a strategy that completely maximized the potential of Bitcoin, then this would be it based on our current financial structure and our current legal structure. But as I've mentioned several times before on this show, you know, Bitcoin disrupts all of it. Um, and the moment you get to a stage where people are actually, you know, the only thing businesses will accept is Bitcoin. And that's the only thing people want. That's the point at which our current society completely transforms in which case a lot of these companies are going to be in a tricky position. And people who invest in the companies rather than holding the Bitcoin are going to be in a tricky position. In fact, as I was reading the article, um, the phrase that sprung to mind was the Tower of Babylon. So of course, there was this idea of someone who kind of, you know, built this tower because they were going to be, they got everyone to kind of build this tower that was going to be the strongest. And I think is the wrong. You know, the wind blows the wrong way and it's like a pack of cards and the whole thing crumbles. You know, it's like the Jenga game from the big short, you know, this is, this is what is being built. And, you know, under current circumstances, people assume that our current legal structure is likely to perpetuate and continue to exist. But when Bitcoin on the ground disrupts that, which it will always have the potential to do. And what we're waiting for is the whole game changes. And in that situation, do you really want to have invested your 401k in a company like this and not actually own any Bitcoin in your own hardware wallet? I would strongly caution people against that plan. That's all I have to say. It is interesting. I think there's kind of a sliding scale out there where if you made, you know, a hundred times your profits or a thousand times your profits, they might be there. But what if you made a hundred thousand times your profits or a million times your profits? Do the people running that company not reevaluate? And like Victoria say, maybe accidentally run out with a Bitcoin or not give it to you or not let you withdraw it, things like that. There is a big difference in holding your money in one of these things versus holding actual Bitcoin. But I think people won't care. Obviously, people want the easy solution. They want it to be click, click, click. Won't care until it's too late. That's right. They're not going to see it coming and they're going to be very surprised when it does happen and they're like, oh, and then it's the ultimate of all ironies, right? Satoshi is like, people should hold their own stuff and then we get into another crisis because people aren't holding their own stuff with the thing invented by the guy who said you should hold your own stuff. But I've got a plan here for Jack. We're going to run it down here. What should he do with this 21 and all these new billions of dollars? Number one, give me a job. We'll get polo shirts. We'll get stickers. We'll get a travel budget. We'll get conference tickets, cameras and microphones. Right? Boom. It's all we need. But then the problem is that I don't know that I agree with their strategy. Obviously, by holding 42,000 Bitcoin with a plan to keep buying more Bitcoin, it's a really cool plan. The problem is it destroys what makes Bitcoin interesting and unique. Bitcoin is interesting because you can send it around like a currency. The fact that a giant bank and another giant bank and some other giant bank are all working together to buy all of the Bitcoin so that they can hold it in one place and never send it around does not help make Bitcoin a currency. If you don't want to take my word for it, let's go to Tim Draper. He's a huge Wall Street investor invested in lots of early Bitcoin startups with Draper University. And as Draper says, referring to gold, he says, Tim Draper, gold is dead. It just sits there. Bitcoin moves borderless, permissionless, programmable. You can't buy coffee with gold, but with Bitcoin, you can without banks, inflation or friction. And I think we need to not lose sight of that. Ben said that Jack made the zap wallet and he was early into lightning and that's true. He needs to not lose track of that. As these banks say, Bitcoin is an asset for us to own and for us to hold it all. I agree with Tim Draper. Bitcoin needs to move. It's part of the thing that makes Bitcoin Bitcoin. So if you take that away, the whole number go up for everything that you want it to be gold. It doesn't go there and it just becomes a collectible. It has to move to be interesting and to stay interesting. There's a good point about Starship Shrodinger's destiny, which is you can't own Bitcoin and your retirement in your 401k in America. You tax your retirement account. And it's similar with pension funds. If you have equity in another company and you've got some Vanguard, some stocks in Vanguard, you need to move them to someone else, somewhere else that you're limited on what you can do with them. This is a mechanism for people to be able to get exposure to Bitcoin if they're locked in for whatever reason into a traditional financial system or if you're an investment fund. So you wouldn't, I think it needs to exist. And of those people who do invest, then I'm sure they'll also accumulate Bitcoin outside of traditional finance, but currently, sadly, in some financial scenarios, you can't have Bitcoin on the balance sheet for your 401k. So why not go buy some of this stuff instead of 21 capital or micro-stragic? What we need is an app that rebies the Bitcoin after you spend it. So you buy it, you spend it, you hold it. That's what you need. That's the solution. And that makes everybody happy. The bank can keep holding the Bitcoin forever. The people can spend it and keep Bitcoin as a currency and it can stay interesting. And that's what we're going to come to eventually, but we're just going to take a long time before we get there. Any more on this issue? I can't think of an exit question. I mean, do you think, I guess it'll be successful. They have tons of Bitcoin. They have famous people, tons of money. Let's go to Benark. Are we going to hire Tom Brady to promote this thing? Is this going FTX? What do you see next for 21? Are we going to hear about it a lot? Well, I mean, hopefully, we're stronger on micro-stragic into contributing a little bit more to the ecosystem beyond just making some financial instrument. So yeah, hopefully having another example of this in the market where they are actually focused on making Bitcoin more adopted is a good thing for that part of the industry. Josh, you think you'll make a difference with micro-stragies? Are just two giant silos of corporate Bitcoin getting bigger and bigger? I mean, all of these things, once they start seeing success, others join. And so hopefully VCs in Europe and family offices and such started the same micro-stragic strategy. But I'm always surprised. I'm always surprised how people can screw up such large amounts of money. When I hear these projects, we at Valtteri, we raised all of $1 million and we ran for almost 10 years before we sold it on. I hear these companies, they raised $30 million and then next year it's gone. They failed and I just think, how did you screw that up? How did you put it? It was a good idea and he screwed it up. So I hope they don't screw it up. I don't think they will check things like a smart guy, I guess. So he's got well connected. Let's go. Let's see it. I bet they get the same marketing guys behind FTX and get the green screens and the Matt Damon and the fortune favors the bull and the brave or whatever. I'm sure I'm sure they'll do it Josh. It's going to be great. Is that FTX? That's FTX. Oh wow. I can't believe it. I can't believe the original 21 raised $120 million. Thomas, that's incredible. The toast to the toast to guys, the hardware scammers, 21 million dollars. At least toast to make sense. When they said they're going to put a minor in light bulbs, I'm like light bulbs are already hot. Like you don't want to add more heat to a light bulb. I don't get it. What? Well, the toast also doesn't make sense. Josh gets hot like spa heaters, house heaters, things that you can be. But the basic with the asics are you. But what did they do with the money? That's why we need to reach Jack. He still has the money and he hasn't spent it all yet. As they said in the big Lebowski, Corvette is only part of the money. He needs to give it to the world crypto network, like $10 million. Just drop it accidentally. You won't even notice. Like 120 million disappear in this biology thing. Imagine if he'd given one million to us. We'd have way more video cameras, more microphones, more shows. And it would go on like Josh says for like 10 years. Maybe like that million dollars is still getting spent for us. Whereas these other marketing people, they could burn it up overnight for you. Over night they could burn it all. Let's see, do we go to Victoria? Yeah, go ahead Victoria. It's very easy to waste a lot of money on marketing. When I did my MBA in the marketing section, we were given a computer simulation called the marketing game. And we all had to play it. The idea being to figure out how much you could actually earn from spending the money. And literally it was so easy to make a company bankrupt by using the wrong strategy with marketing. That is a really easy way to lose all your money. Wrong marketing strategies. So yeah. Well, I want to see how it goes. He's the boy genius. He's got his company. He's a Vitalik 3.0 or whatever we're going for now. I'm sure it's all going to work out great. And yes, hire us. Hire the show. Ridiculous amounts of money. As Kresti the clown said, they backed a dump truck up to my house. A dump truck. Moving on to issue two Bitcoin price prediction 2025. Can Bitcoin hit 100K again? Here's what the chart suggests. And there it is. It's all the same chart. It's always the same thing. But the real interesting thing here is tech dev who has been saying the same thing over and over again. He says that it's not so much the happening or other things that it's the business liquidity cycle. And that every four years or so, the business cycle goes down, prices go down, then the business cycle recovers, goes back up and prices go back up. And according to him right before the recent kickoff, he says this chart says the largest Bitcoin move in five years has begun. Josh Shagall, what do you think about the price of Bitcoin as it rockets back up and it might reclaim 100K? Oh, look, everything's possible in Bitcoin. So, you know, the strategy, the micro strategy that everybody could use, not financial advice, is just every payday. If you got some little bit of savings, instead of putting it into the lottery, instead of buying the scratchy, instead of buying four beers, have three and put one in the Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever you know. But don't go, if you knew, don't go anywhere else. Just stick with the blue chips. Don't go anywhere else. Same far too many people lose their shirts too early. It's also so hard to go from a no-coin or to a sum-coin or, but I think that's what you have to do, right Josh? You have to get some skin in the game, get something out there because everyone out there is like, I could have bought Bitcoin at this price. I could have bought it at that price and that's not going to help you. Like you got to just give up, get some at whatever price it is, see how it goes, hold it for a long time and it should go up. Yeah, it's like it's always a gamble. Everything in life is a gamble. You're going to start your small business, that's a gamble. Everything's a gamble. But Bitcoin for me is a pretty good gamble. The odds are pretty good that it will go up. And if you do it on a weekly, if it goes down, hey, you're getting it cheaper, if it goes up, hooray. Shout out to TuneIn Dropout in the chat. He says, gold used to move, it simply became unable to function in the 20th century global economy. Bitcoin can become the functional replacement to gold in the 21st century. And I do agree with that. And I also think it's important to notice how gold's value diminished and it became less and less interesting when it stopped moving. When it stopped being the currency, when it stopped being the thing that you could trade for that was backing stuff up, it became disconnected and that Bitcoin could have the same thing happen to it if it just becomes an asset that people hold in their giant treasuries. Yeah, but the gold versus Bitcoin shouldn't be the argument. It's not gold versus Bitcoin and everyone always gets this wrong. It's Bitcoin versus Fiat. That's the enemy. Gold is on our side. Gold is a great hedge. Once you've made a butt load of profit in Bitcoin, put a little bit into gold and silver. It won't hurt you just to make sure because hey, 6000 years of history, you know, 15 or whatever it is now. You just a little bit of diversification is always good. The new thing they're saying, Josh, as they are saying that Bitcoin might replace real estate as the ultimate store of value and that for generations, people have been buying land and been buying houses. And maybe it might be better to have this digital asset, this digital land, digital houses. True, actually, near my granddad and his family had a series of properties in Wales. And during the 60s, he was selling them all off because all he got from them was, you know, the tenants weren't penny rent because most of them were too poor. And he kept getting these bills for repairs and so he just started selling them because he thought he'd be, they wouldn't be useful. And I didn't know about this until the 90s, but of course, if he'd held on until it got to the 80s and 90s, people really don't recognize that the reason property values have gone up is because of the way Fiat currency has worked, you know, in the 50s and 60s, property was not that great an investment. It's only been in the last 40 years that it's really taken off. So the people who are saying Bitcoin is absolutely right. I'd rather rent a house and own Bitcoin and in fact, that's exactly what I do. So. And let's go to Ben. What do you think about the price of Bitcoin 100k or more? Sorry, 600 billion. 600 billion. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's a good gamble Bitcoin because, uh, no need to get to invest in this thing, which will probably go up and make you rich. Um, it also will probably make the world a better place as well. And it's a very useful technology for lots of people, all those, um, but unbanked folks. Um, so it's, uh, I always say to people, you know, if they're really seriously thinking about investing in Bitcoin and they have been for a while, I would always say buy, buy enough that if you lose it, it's going to suck. It's not going to destroy your life. It'll just suck a lot, but you'll get over it, you know, because it's still, you know, high risk investment. We don't think it is, but, you know, it's still a high risk investment. So buy enough that if you lose it's going to suck because it'll probably work. And if it does work, then it's going to go up a lot of value and your benefits from it. And then you're also helping to support an industry which, uh, could make the world a better place. Um, but yeah, I mean, 600 billion. Why would it go to anything else? Really. And it's fun because sometimes you get to say, I told you so, but most of the time you get to wallow in the, I could have sold for this. I could have sold for that. Yeah. Yeah. What the number one bit of advice I would give, which I've actually a lot of Bitcoin is to do is they build up a stack. They do well on Bitcoin and then they quit their jobs. Um, and then they just, you know, you can, you can dollar cost average in Bitcoin, but if you dollar cost average out, uh, your spending goes up and you, you know, initially you have that fee escape velocity where you're free, you know, you just, you're outgoing and they're not, the, the amount in which Bitcoin accumulates, uh, outpaces, you're outgoing. So you're always just getting more money. But then when you stop working, you then spend more money and then you buy stuff, you know, buy a new house by this and that bitcoins, that fee escape velocity just starts to dip. Um, and then before you know it, you're burning down and see a stack and then it's gone. Um, and we've seen lots, we've got a lot of people, um, who are early in Bitcoin and they managed to burn through their stacks that way. So be wary of that, that old chestnut. Mm, that's just what they said in on the road. They said, President Eisenhower says we've got to keep down the cost of living, which of course was justification for them to steal food from the military base. Moving on to the exit question, the Bitcoin predictor ball and source of all truth and knowledge in this universe, Josh, a goal will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week? I call a lot of pessimism last week and I might recall staying bullish and being right again. My mum bought a flight with some Bitcoin yesterday. So it's probably going up. It's always the personal story. I know it always goes up on I sell a Victoria Jones higher or lower. It seems to be on a good trajectory. So I'd say higher. An arc higher or lower. I want to go lower. Lower sticking with the pessimism and here we are shaking the ball, which could cause bubbles. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? You may rely on it. You may rely on it. Finally, some positive news from the eight balls been either not answering or pessimistic for so long. Check out worldcryptonetwork.com. We've got 4,320 videos and we did it without raising $120 million that strangely went missing and nobody even got their toasters like Josh says they're going to put miners in light bulbs and toasters makes no sense. You can check out those videos at worldcryptonetwork.com and probably learn more about 21 back in the past when you used to talk about the original 21. Moving on to issue three indicted Bitcoin Jesus Roger Ver plays pays fellow Roger, Roger Stone $600,000 to lobby for him. The long time Trump ally is lobbying Congress to change the law that the crypto entrepreneur Roger Ver was charged with violating. As part of the New York Times article, it does say that Ver is quote accused of shielding his cryptocurrency holdings from $48 million in taxes previously during this story. Ver and others had said that the IRS did not provide a number according to the New York Times. The number is $48 million. That's what he could pay to presumably be able to leave Spain. Additionally, Trump has been handing out other pardons, interesting ones to a Nevada politician who was convicted of using funds meant to honor a slain police officer on plastic surgery received a pardon. She was the Las Vegas mayor and city councilwoman Michelle Fiorre and Richard Hart from Hexbeath the SEC charges and Hex has been declared fully legal no matter what you or anyone else may think. Let's go to Victoria Jones. What do you think about Roger Ver? The possibility for pardon given all bracked Fiorre and others and then a little bit on Richard Hart who seems to have gotten away with all of it. I like the Richard Hart story best because actually that doesn't surprise me because I'm not an expert on Hexbeath but I did watch the documentary and I got the impression reading between the lines that ultimately he has designed his altcoin using the mechanisms of the existing financial system. It's like I think after discovering Bitcoin, I mean when you start learning about Bitcoin it starts you know you start uncovering exactly how the existing financial system works and he kind of went forget this Bitcoin in Malachi. Why don't I just kind of repeat what the existing financial system is doing because for the people who are close to the preventing press in the existing financial system they're the ones who are winning and all credit to his intelligence for figuring that out. And so if the lawyers decide to go after him for the strategy that he's used, if you know effectively they're blaming him for using a strategy that the existing financial system is blamed on. So if he you know it could actually create quite a hoohar if he were to be found operating against the law because he can just turn around and say well I'm just doing what you guys are doing. And so it looks like what's happened he's gone that's exactly what's happened they went oh I better go and keep this one on the down low. Don't want too many people knowing about this. So actually I'm not that surprised and I suspect when Richard Hock, I mean he's bullsy enough to kind of take that strategy and then you know throw it in everybody's face and of course you know this is what's happened and hardly anyone's batting an eyelid about it you know because we've got all of these other crazy crazy cases going on. So if you do a deep dive into some of these things it can be very enlightening and very educational as to how the world actually works and some of these cases should be making people sit up and go hang on a minute because you know a lot of people have been criticising Richard Hock for having a scam coin especially compared to Bitcoin but it's like well why is it a scam coin and why would the SEC not challenge that when there was all this hooth hara about XRP and you know there's a huge debate over whether or not Ethereum you know whatever Ethereum was being blamed on. So you know in all these court cases you know there are interesting lessons to be learnt here and I think as each one kind of goes along it's like another layer of the onion is being peeled back it's like an education for everyone if you really dive into it as to well why did this one succeed why didn't this one succeed but yeah I just kind of I thought I'd highlight the narrative behind Richard's one because I think if you don't know anything about X that's actually really interesting. He's definitely making everyone I know kick themselves for not starting a coin you could have started a stable coin you could have started a parody of the US dollar where it just inflates and gives you the money called an inflation coin or sarcastic coin it seems to be the right. But why is it that these are the ones that have been successful and I think that's the interesting story it's understanding the mechanism behind them as to why because plenty failed but these are the ones that survived and the story is to why they've survived is interesting. He did have an impressive mechanism where this one feeds that one and it goes back into this one and pays interest to that one and that's always where it started to sound a little scammy but I do agree with you Victoria did resemble the current financial system and it would have been very difficult for them to put down so maybe too clever by half I don't know huge victory for Richard Hart. Ben Arck what do you think we want to talk about Roger Vier hiring a new attorney or a new friend there and will he get a pardon? I mean the Richard Hart guy he was good when he was in Bitcoin he was talking about Bitcoin Queen's very eloquent but you know it was a scam I mean like the reward address or the founder address which was having those one three three seven a theory of sense to it shortly after it was designed to enrich himself and that money has got to come from somewhere and part of his policy was to shit talk Bitcoin in order to try and give his things some value so he did inevitably just turn into a massive scammy shit coin but while he was with Bitcoin he was very good at talking about Bitcoin it was kind of a shame that we lost him for that so I will say that but and he's very interesting character but yeah it looks like he got away with it so quite remarkable on the Roger Vier on the original topic there of my Roger Vier I mean I think 600 thousand probably peanuts whether it's actually going to have any sway and help him secure a pardon I don't know but I suppose from his point of view it's money was spent good luck to him you know hope you manage just to get out of Spain get back to Japan and be shielded by their non-extrician policy you'll be safe they should never have left Japan but yeah death in taxes if he owes him 48 million in taxes they're going to come after him it is pretty horrible the people that Roger is having to pay to try to get out of jail and the interesting thing I think I'd like to see Ben now is the Richard Hart biography I want to hear the whole thing I want to hear allegedly I've heard he sold car stereos growing up allegedly he's the spam king and then now the hex chapter and so on and so forth whether it was an impartial one or maybe even one he'd write himself I think I would read either Josh Chagall what do you think a Trump trying to pardon Roger perhaps or a Richard Hart going off scot free yeah I mean I really find the the thing interesting and sad because bird did leave the US and and got rid of his passport and everything way before Bitcoin was anything I mean before before any of the riches from Bitcoin so I think it's a land grab it's a money grab it's the old here put it here which is weird because there's just so much waste as we've seen in do like billions just thrown here and there from the government yet thereafter this guy for his 46 million and so yeah I I hope he I hope he figures it out I hope Roger can help him Roger Stone yeah in terms of Richard Hart I don't like people that like that have zero taste and just throw their money at like nonsense brands and and have all these baubles and like shiny things you know I've never I met Richard once here on this show but I don't know I don't know what people find so attractive about the guy like why I think he's just got very good marketing and a lot of people creating memes and reposting I don't know he's I just don't I don't get the appeal of Richard Hart now in terms of him winning the SEC I think it was a I think it was a massive gut punch to the SEC which is great because they were they they their whole case was grounded in a total overreach and there are legitimate scams really hard scams look where where the heck's a scam or not I don't know because I haven't looked into it but what I do know is that there are like just in the open scams where they just rug pull I mean why isn't there see see going after that instead like if someone's trying to make something that's trying to scale in their wacky way and they've got their wacky way of going about it you know it's it's just seems yeah I don't really know how to it's 5.30 in the morning here folks so trying to collect my thoughts on that is hard but it's um I find yeah so I've surrounded all up I find the guy very unappealing I don't own any hex I don't have anything to do with it but I don't think there's I don't think there's a you know it seems to me like that they are trying to solve a problem and trying to make you know something there that that kind of works I wouldn't invest in it I wouldn't buy it I'm you know big big coin and a theorem guy I think those two are fine the L2s are working on both those things and trying to grow the the technology there but yeah that's my heart take it it is really hard to understand the appeal of Richard heart Josh but I think a lot of it has to do with this extreme wealth fronting from the very beginning he's got the backdrop with the candelabra and the caseful of crystals and the throne and the I don't know smoking jacket or whatever so he's fronting all this I think so and I think for me and you we see it as like a theatrical thing like a movie like a set dressing like yeah he could be in the basement in Detroit in his grandma's apartment and he's got a candelabra and he's got a throne and he got him at a garage sale down the street and his great at sectet set decoration and lighting and whatever so it seems fronting but I think other people look at this and they say I want to be that this man has this wealth he will teach me how I will follow him and he will get me to the promised land of great riches and whether it's pulse chain or hex or whatever the new one's going to be called or the old one or it all just seems genius because they're just following a genius leader to victory I've had to just like walking around with you know I don't know Louis Vuitton tracksuits and like the waddling with your fat bags who are putting one in your mouth and like like just gross you know true wealthy people have an old you with blue in the back and you don't even know you don't even know they've got beautiful house and stuff but they've got connections they've got their they've got their wealth they don't need to flaunt it and that's that's true wealth as soon as people flaunt it you think they're trying to keep up with juniors or they're covering some hole be careful be careful following the flaunt wealth well all that kind of like newvo respending on all those brands I mean that that money did come from somebody you know there was someone who is investing some money some at some point in time and they got rugged and that's the reason in which he's able to war on his Louis Vuitton get up and out for it like it's you know it's off the back of people like suffering and it sucks so it's just it's just it's just what I wouldn't I wouldn't say that like that's apparently let's let's put that word in there because I don't know if you rugged anyone some you can get wealthy by creating value they had no we had no value like you didn't there was nothing it's not there there was nothing there like it was just it was just a Ponzi I had the pop it was clever it was club pump dynamic side of it was clever whatever but like there were there were people who lost money and that's how he was able to have money you know like that came from somewhere that value came from somewhere and then for him to just like spend on all this crap and I guarantee you would have taken the money and put it directly into Bitcoin oh yeah I told it unfortunately no it's all legalized now it was a casino game they were playing he set it up it was complicated but it was apparently okay and we have to see that whole thing with the Louis Vuitton that's all success now that's all like this isn't like ftx where he spent the money on tom Brady and got sued and whatever this is a successful operation but if his if his token is unethical all he's doing is reflecting back how the existing financial system works which is unethical but most people don't know that and so you know as I mean I I don't find Richard particularly appealing I don't think many people do but part of his character being so over the top is that it attracts attention and actually that draws if you look if you look into the details of what he's doing that attracts attention to how the existing financial system works that's why he that's why he managed I think he managed to get past the SEC you know that's the genius aspect of it he wasn't ethical but the existing financial system isn't ethical and you know he might be he might be vulgar in hit in the use of his spending of the money but actually many rich people are vulgar the excessively rich people are very vulgar in how they spend it I mean have you seen how the Arabs spend all their money off planes you know and you know various Indian weddings there's plenty of vulgarity around if you look at it it's all a matter of personal taste but when it actually comes down to the nitty gritty of how his system actually works it's very enlightening if you you know if you follow the story through which may which underneath it all regardless of everything else is still a service to humanity because he's pointing out something really important see and I bet if we got the the real Richard hard on here and if we really broke him down and got to the core of it he would say I'm a performance artist doing what Victoria said and I made a billion dollars or whatever off of it you know pat on the back like look at what I did and we would pretty much all have to say whether performance are or not he made all this money he did all this stuff no money he could you could you cut him too much slack he he he he came on and he said the Bitcoin's broken hexes bars better than Bitcoin by hacks by hacks by hacks and then a bunch of people bought hacks and then they lost their shit scammer he's just just a world-dressed yeah but how many people buy shares in various companies and then lose all their money every time there's a financial crisis of him how is that any better I don't know about you okay I guess it's the SEC's job to try and stop these things from happening isn't I don't know yeah but the SEC will the I've got to give Ben credit he gave him he gave him slack beforehand he was like you know I don't mind like this was years ago you know while everyone was calling him a scam then you did say give him a chance and now you're saying it was it was it was it was it was kind of the whole idea of creating something which was designed to go up in value losing this pump dynamics which is really just you know market manipulation or whatever like that was kind of interesting you would have this asset class which would be domed on Bitcoiners which would go up in value but then where he really turned me against him was when he started saying that this thing was superior to Bitcoin and it was a great idea so it's a bad call Alex man yeah that's when you're scamming that's when you just you know that you're lying he knows that he's lying and then he's getting other people's and if he just continues with the original goal of whatever his project was then you know well so the the interesting thing is the market hasn't really celebrated the win as much the win is I mean it's down like 0.2% of what it was as all time high losing more than 90% of its market value so you know it's yeah let's see what happens but it's token there's no doubt about his token wars at scam but so is the existing financial system that's the point yeah but it's not like well my excuse for being a scammer is because the current financial system is scam so I'm now I'm just going to scam without any moral implication or but it kind of is if you actually watch that documentary that's exactly what he's doing that's not right and so and him saying that his token is better than Bitcoin is like the financial system saying we're better than Bitcoin and it's only used by criminals and drug dealers you know it's the same parody it's like that's what he's reflecting and you know and it's like no one gets it because they don't you know most people just dismiss it without even actually looking into what he's doing and it's not appealing on the surface but that's the point you know most people are so prejudiced they just dismiss things on the surface they don't look any deeper but actually if you look deeper that's what's going on and it's actually kind of entertaining from an intellectual perspective I don't enjoy watching you know it there's something very off-putting about his delivery but actually the intellect behind it is quite amazing when you understand it I think and then I wasn't going to mention this but as you bring up people making coins that are just like Bitcoin Barry Silver from the Digital Currency Group who is a big early Bitcoin supporter he's got his own new coin called Tao and Tao is an artificial intelligence type coin and it has a 21 million coin supply just like Bitcoin people say it's an affinity scam and blah blah blah Ben what do you think about Tao being launched by Barry Silver I mean I get there's an example of somebody who had a lot of Bitcoin in public spend all 90s more money and that's why he's really missing I don't really see the point just I mean whatever like there's a whole world of alternative currencies and crypto currencies you should check coin whatever else but for me you know Bitcoin's the main event it's the interesting thing and some people want to exploit it and some people I mean all of us were here early enough that we could have gone off and like made some scammy Pompi coin and made millions or billions or whatever and we didn't and we should we should pass ourselves on the back for being poor and having moral fiber rather than yeah rather than being rich and corrupt it's a it's a cup you should never you can never empty because it will just never empty you just you need to all you have is your honor as a human being and this is why we choose not to scam and it's a choice because we could have chosen to remember technically competent enough but we just we didn't and that's you know we we should give ourselves some credit for that I like that the supply is 21 million coins it's the same number as Bitcoin so it has the same value as Bitcoin that's what that's what my mind thinks right away and I also I think it related I'm like technologically if you had the technology to make 20 million coins but this guy has a technology to make 21 million like the same number as Bitcoin right John what happened to the the one coin thing during the the Sam ultman world their world coin world coin with the the eyeballs or they were scanning the eyeballs of the poor people well happening they're they're they're doing that thing that I want to do for Jack with the polo shirts and the stickers and the conventions and I heard they not even bringing the the great orb with them if you want to get scanned they just kind of talk of the orb now and maybe you're would be and I got so confused though when you said one coin Ben because I thought first you know Rooja doctor Rooja who had the spreadsheet she was going to double our money by November I know it in my know her another coin called one coin back in the early days that was only a 1.0 there's only 1.0 of the coin so if you had like a 0.1 you'd have 10% of the one one coin market you used to have fun where they weren't all just scams of what do you think Josh Barry Silver it's got a new coin then made me I don't know much about it like I'm not I think there's so much cool stuff you can do with the idea of cryptographically proven tokens I think there's so much you can do so I'm not just going to call everything a scam that that is has that but I always find that a bit it's a bit red flaggy as soon as people take two buzzwords like AI and crypto or blockchain and slam them together and then go out there and raise money on that I think yeah okay red flag it's Barry Barry's a smart guy he invested in a lot of stuff I don't think he'd be out of Bitcoin because he invested in Cracker and all these big things in the early days I think I think so I think he's well it reminds me a lot of trace and mimble wimble right where like he has a spotless record he's a businessman he found Bitcoin early but you know what everyone who found Bitcoin early believes that they're right about everything else so he's right about whatever this altcoin thing is yeah well you know I hope that we can create more value by creating things that solve problems and yeah but generally if I was to start another project I wouldn't do another coin raise at the start rather I would release that later because it's just it's just fraught with people you know holding a type of investment in you and this is I guess where the SEC and all these things do come in is that they say well you're selling pink slips you're selling equity but I found fundamentally as a more an archaic capitalist type guy I do love the idea of the of the ICO I think it's it's a really nice idea of allowing your community or people that love your idea to have a share in its success and we saw things like for instance the early Oculus the guy rose millions of dollars from Kickstarter no one got any shares of anything or nothing no no tokens it was a kickstarted you just sort of donated it they got an early Oculus and then the Oculus guy sold to Facebook for like ten billion dollars or something six billion four billion whatever it was it was a lot and none of those early backers got anything but a crappy first generation wobbly you know dev kit and and so this you know I see a solve that problem in in a theoretical way but also in a practical way but there are also problems with it like you see the pumpers and dumpers you see the market manipulation you see because very low volume has the has the possibility of market manipulation so but I think these are problems that can be solved with smart contracts whether that's on Bitcoin or Ethereum it but being able to solve these problems in technical ways rather than legal ways I think that's that's the way to go raising capital is always going to be there if you have a good idea you sometimes you need to raise capital to to scale and you're either going to get it from some VC who screws you over or you can get it from a community of people who really support you and support your project so foundationally I think there's there is merit to the concepts of ICOs it's just that the technology stack isn't good enough yet to mathematically regulate it in a way that makes it harder and harder for people to scam other people and that's what needs to be solved it does seem like we're always offering people the chance to be an early investor in Facebook but we always end up offering the chance to lose money as an early investor in Facebook so I worry about the same thing here and I Josh when you said you were going to make a coin I thought for sure you're going to say I'm going to make three coins and this one's going to pay interest to that coin which buys this coin and then this one's going to burn that one and something something some kind of great hex plan there but of course full disclosure I did get to go one time to what's it called digital currency group friends and family day or something we got to go to Napa wineries because I worked for purse that was really nice and Barry Silver and I made pizza together like made the mozzarella and then we had to do a little marketing exercise it was a whole thing but it was pretty fun so hopefully he'll do well with his new coin we still have one more issue we're running out of time though bitcoins altcoins pump after a federal reserve board with draws crypto notification rules for banks might be a good thing might be a bad thing they're saying that banks can now I don't know hold and offer bitcoin and offer bitcoins services Ben arc what do you think about the new crypto proposal from the Trump administration it looks like once again the bitcoins got what they paid for they wanted this law gone and now it's gone I mean he is he's profiting isn't he from being president there but I remember at the Bitcoin conference you could pay 50 grand and you'd have a photo you could have your photo taken with with Trump and though these Bitcoin is from the conference who were posting their pictures next to Trump on on Twitter and I was just like you pay 50 grand for that thing which you could just done with AI and then I think to go for the meal those are meal with Trump and that was 160 grand so this is why the Roger verse 600 grand I'm like it's a drop in the ocean whether it can have any impact I don't know so how much how much do you need in order to in order to be able to hang out with Trump then with the Trump coin I am not sure they have a leader board now for to get the VIP tour but that's going to be a different issue and this one they they got the bank rules changed so they actually got something not just all right all right okay sorry it wasn't listening Josh the Bitcoiners won another big victory the banks can now handle Bitcoin Ben doesn't care what do you think Josh? Thanks so when we when we started Voltoro we and then the UK decided to have a regulation where you had to basically do all jump through a million hoops to get the license and guess what the regulator didn't pass any one of them they kept on saying to every Bitcoin startup well we recommend that you withdraw your application so that because if you don't and we say no then you won't be able to ever apply for it again plus if you go to any other European country and try to passport and get there regulatory you have to tell them they're regulated that we said no and so what happened and our lawyers at the time said well you're not alone every single Bitcoin companies we're getting told this to do this so what was actually happening is they had this license and they were saying no to everybody without saying no and that way the government could say we have this license just nobody's applying for it and and meanwhile who was getting the licenses? the banks the banks were realizing that there's a lot of money to be made in this crypto stuff and let's cut out all of the startups let's crush them through regulation and that's exactly what they did and they they didn't crush that we were we were doing everything more than the banks we were doing the KYC and this and that and getting KYC every three months from people even though they'd already came I like just it was just annoying all of our customers were far we hired people specifically for anti-money laundering they all they did was sit there twiddling their thumbs but we had to have that person and pay them a heck of a lot of money a year and we were bootstrap you know a little startup so I knew it was coming the banks are going to take this uh hey there's a lot of correlation to like the weed industry is what I've heard uh where you get the original all the hippies that fought for legalization of the weed and then once that happened all of those that started startups around that whole industry got kicked out of it and all you had was big tobacco moving and take the whole industry for themselves and this is kind of what's happening with the banks is that they're going to take this whole industry for themselves and regulate and this is why I just don't like the term regulate because it's this all-encompassing term that means nothing but uh but you know when people I've been a conferences and people like who thinks that banks should be regulated more and everyone just sticks up their hand and you know what does that even mean what you want 10 more rules 100 more rules what what sort of rules like it's just just a stupid term and so the idea of Bitcoin I look I understand it that you want certain rules for your country that if you make an investment vehicle it should have some basic uh scaffolding to to stop things but for me I'm I'm an old school Bitcoin I like I like the idea of math regulating things because then I can see in the contract okay if this then that otherwise this you can see the rules set and uh and that that to me is the way you regulate this stuff uh when it comes to a centralized exchange I think they because they're dealing with old school human contracts they need to be regulated because uh like Sam uh Sam Bankman fraud he was creating contracts where he was saying oh I'm worth billions because my token is worth billions uh and and then leveraging off that and using all old school contracts and then so you couldn't on chain verify any of it because he was making you know promises on paper and so yeah that stuff probably needs some some rules around it uh but yeah it seems like originally Josh I imagine the law was to protect banks from holding strange investments or taking giant risks on cryptocurrency uh because if they went down all the normal accounts would go down as well uh this presumably removes that barrier and removes that protection and I do agree if we had had this uh law if we'd had this thing revoked before uh there would have been no coin base there would have been no Bitcoin industry the banks just would have offered Bitcoin as another service and they would have gotten all the fees on it there wouldn't have been a wall street explosion of Bitcoin mining companies and all these other things and it does relate back to marijuana some ways Josh and they had a similar system where they gave out a stamp that said you could grow and sell marijuana in the 20s and they just didn't give out any stamps so no one could wasn't illegal it's just we just don't give out any stamps um so it's a very strange thing and and I do agree I remember back in the meetups we all used to talk about if only we had more power for banks you know if only banks could hold Bitcoin more and get more involved that's really what this revolution is about and and that drew a lot of people that was a big seller back in the day all right it really went when uh conferences were all about you know the revolution of Bitcoin taking separation of money and state and then suddenly we started to see more regulators being invited and I was like now the regulator from this and this bank ahead of you know JP Morgan speaking and everyone's like oh and I'm like what gives a shit about that punk uh but yeah no they slowly took over but yeah just quickly I'll end here sorry for taking this uh but I think it's an important one for instance a bad rule right the regulator told us we'd been hold we'd been holding people's Bitcoin and and we had a transparency protocol and everything we'd it uh it been like six years and with nothing's ever happened and it's not through lack of hackers not trying people were trying to attack us every single day we'd see it in the logs you know and no one ever broke in to be into Valtoria meanwhile all these places were being hacked all the time and this and that the other thing and the what the what the regulator said was uh all of a sudden what you're holding other people's Bitcoin um uh you know because it was a Bitcoin gold exchange right and we said yeah but no one's ever broke we we've obsessed with security we do it very well and now no no no you need to have other people holding that your clients Bitcoin and we said what do you mean he said uh who we said who and they said anybody but you and then you can get the license uh huh uh and and so we have like these oh it's just ridiculous it's so bad it's so bad so there's there's a case of a rule uh a regulation well hang on so you're taking a company that's been obsessed with security hasn't been hacked in a very long time has like uh you know a track record and telling them to get rid of that and just hand the hand the Bitcoin over to another company that holds it for you for the client and uh and then that's fine then you can get the license yeah what does make any sense for absolutely ridiculous and it's all these unelective bureaucrats that have no idea of anything not even part of the industry uh making these silly rules they didn't even know what cryptography was really i don't know josh and this extraordinary amount of liability to be holding customer funds on an exchange that was horrible that was the worst part of having i know i know at purse you know we were just a shopping cart you know people would buy things but people are really lazy with their Bitcoin with their strategies and you know purse doesn't exist anymore so i don't feel bad telling this is not a security problem but hurt people left lots of Bitcoin on purse people left lots of Bitcoin on um what was it local wallet or Bitcoin wallet whatever was back in the day all these services that were not intended to hold this and if you look at coin base now they have a big warning up that they're going to move everyone to their web 3 wallet and i don't know how they're going to distribute the keys securely through the internet with the screen capping and so forth but i don't think they want to hold the Bitcoin either i think it's a huge liability and it's you know like yes you were the best at the time to hold it so that's a unique situation but normally i would think for this massive liability like if you had a massive cash vault at your subway sandwich shop it would be like maybe no cash vault maybe just the sandwiches you know yeah yeah look we told people constantly don't hold Bitcoin on the exchange if you're going to trade to gold upload it trade it move it off but you know like you said people just want that secure and that's what actually gave me the the the the insight that places like coin base are always going to exist and fighting that is it's not going to win because people do want the the ease of not having to learn about public private key cryptography and and all of that stuff they just want to go i need someone to call especially businesses like micro strategy on they've been trained by their bank accounts and their credit cards and all of that sorry um sorry sorry sorry i got the the topics mixed up before but i do want to just chime in on this it reminds me a little bit of the the repeal of this glass legal act in 99 and then in 2008 a lot of people were like well that's you know partly probably to blame for the for the for the 2008 crisis by having banks be allowed to be investment banks as well as commercial banks there is an issue when you allow your bank to do too many things that um that that that that becomes a conflict of interest and they they can screw up so it kind of reminds me of that it gives another adds another attack or risk vector to banking the banking industry which which could you know cause another 2008 so yeah it's good to have these services separated out as separate services rather than order to build a bank. Oh they're awful that that technology that that technology departments are a beyond incompetent yeah yeah I don't I don't know about you guys bitcoin magazine says this is a big win for us uh bitcoiner is getting more rights banks are gonna hold bitcoin now this is a this is what our lobbyists died in the mud for this is it uh Victoria Jones what do you think the banks can hold bitcoin now as are well I suspect um that uh well from what I hear from general economic discussions is the banks are starting to panic now because um you know liquidity behind the scenes is drying up in terms of how it transfers between uh institutions I mean a lot of people think that governments can print more money but it is somewhat restricted by interest rates um and of course there's a big battle going on with interest rates at the moment and so if if a crisis happens there the banks are in trouble and I think it's purely it's not a big win for the bitcoin as I just think it's uh out of necessity the banks need other assets and I think they're just being forced they're going to be forced to adopt things like cryptocurrency because that's what everyone wants because it's been the best performing asset for the last 15 years and so the banks are probably behind the scenes screaming because they're vulnerable it's just like if people aren't using the traditional financial system anymore you know we either if we can't beat them we have to join them I think that's ultimately the situation at the end of the day um I think they're being forced to capitulate really um they you know the the people at the top of the financial system have known for a long time that bitcoin has the potential to disrupt them they're not going to win that battle I it to a certain extent it is a win for bitcoin not even bitcoin is because bitcoin is just a system that's been designed in such a way that inevitably it's going to win we don't know how long it will take but inevitably it will and I just think this is one of those inevitable steps along the way the banks are having to capitulate because the banks are in trouble and so they need another way in order to keep themselves solvent and it will be a temporary thing before the banks no longer exist because we're using bitcoin instead so it almost seems like the movie studios adopting streaming they're trying to take the pirates technology but at the same time the pirate system keeps running right next to the other system and it's more efficient easier to use and simpler and doesn't have all the rights management all that and the same thing for the money there's a more convenient form of money and hopefully that'll be bitcoin if they don't screw it all up with 21 jack hire us send us some money all right we've got some quick update stories you guys can comment on these after legal drama Shaqille O'Neill reaches settlement in the FTX class action lawsuit they had quite a hard time serving shack with the papers he's a hard guy to reach apparently they actually found him at an NBA finals game so they had to buy a ticket to the game to serve him the papers but they settled the lawsuit this means that Tom Brady and others who supported FTX might also have to pay families of detainees in El Salvador and Venezuela decry bukelle's prison swap author the Salvadoran president denounced a tyrannical as he floats trading 252 prisoners with the fellow authoritarian regime shipping the Venezuelans to Venezuela and having some kind of trade deal just great not to have supported this guy the whole time and never to win a supporter it keeps getting worse and worse over there and finally as Ben noted earlier Trump offers private dinner to the top investors of his meme coin I think we talked about this as a theoretical possibility even just early on and NFTs and in meme coins that someone very powerful maybe a sports star could offer a dinner or a batting practice or something but now it's happening with the president united states just days before the coin starts unlocking five million dollars a day to trump and his original supporters that own the original coin I think they own 80 or 90 percent of the coin oh let's go to Josh Tagala which one was like your comment on shack settles with the FTX bukelle's trading human beings now and trump meme coin madness continues I mean it's not like prisoners swap seven been a thing in the past if they're from if they're expats in prison you send them back to the country see the big deal and I've got to say like I think it's say it's one of the safer countries in the world now I'll solve it all since he cleaned it up so that's pretty impressive the problem is if you're imprisoned falsely that's that's pretty bad like you had some old gang tattoos but you fixed up your life and you you got out of the game and which is actually really hard to do as well because that's that's something that goes through my head what if that happens well generally that doesn't happen because the gang will kill you for leaving and and and so generally you're in the gang for life so you know it's it's really important to live in a safe society and if you've got these people running around just murdering a massive cartels just running the show so something's going to happen and and some you know I don't know I don't live there doesn't bother me much but I would much rather live in a safe society where total freaks with face tattoos all over themselves who are actually and you know shooting up drive by shoot shootings and whatever else they get up to and not on the streets where I'm trying to raise a family that that was probably a good thing so but yeah yeah that's uh I don't know I think it's it's hard to speak on all that because in one way you see the outcome and hopefully they have judicial process and they can slowly go through things and try to find proof of each one but have you seen how many there I mean there was thousands and thousands of gang members over there so it's very very difficult that's a difficult problem difficult problem well and preventing that one person being in their Josh is why they did develop due process rights where they would check to see if you're on a legal list you get to see a judge you have all these kind of rights before you get sent to prison but what Bukelli did was just pick up allegedly everyone with a tattoo in the bar and then unfortunately it seems that Trump has done the same thing in the United States and then sent them down there so it's really kind of a sliding scale of what you believe whether you know one man one innocent man should be protected or whether it's better to punish you know all these people and let the innocent man. Well I mean they've got the same thing he you have to be illegally in the US and that's always we don't know them. You're illegally on the problem Josh is it's really simple we didn't give them due process so we don't know. We can't say either way because we didn't give them due process. If you give due process to millions and millions of people guess what happens your due process facilities get crushed so you can't actually have trials for real murderers and stuff anymore because you're crushed with nonsense and actually most of these people have evidence it's not a right and then you don't have any rights so then you can be very easy to take papers that you're allowed to be here. I'm not checking them Josh you just said we don't have time to check and we don't have large enough facilities checking. They're checking little stuff they're not taking them to court doing full like week week long court process that's not what they're doing but they're definitely checking papers where's your passport where's your where's your papers. Not sure about that Josh the whole point is not to check the things and as far as the actual prisoners it's been interesting because Buchelli said a few weeks ago that the United States was paying them to hold them meaning that he didn't actually hold them he held a contract with the United States that they were upholding and getting paid to uphold so if you stop paying them they'd stop holding those people but he's changed that now and now he's trying to trade the prisoners for other prisoners in Venezuela it's a very slippery slope as to the humanity of those. Well it's not a very rich country so if you have vast prison systems you're paying a lot of money to keep these people and so if you're keeping expats you were also criminals in gangs then you send those gangs back those gang members back to where they came from yeah make sense I wouldn't be easier presumably the other the other criminals that they're being paid to held which they've kind of turned their society into a pay for play prison society it's not a great thing for El Salvador. Victoria Jones what do you think they they've got Shaq Buchelli's trading prisoners and now you can buy dinner with Trump. Well I'm just wondering whether or not Trump's going to have to settle for you know representing Trump coin when that fails. That's very interesting. Given that you know there appears to be a trend here of celebrities having to settle for supporting you know fraudulent companies so yeah be interesting to see how that one plays out. It's really tough to take the Trump coin because it is such an obvious pathway for potential grift and everyone sees it and everyone knows it and at the same time no one can stop it like we have to let it happen like you have to let the grift happen and then you have to see if there's proof and whatever and then later on maybe we'll stop the grift maybe we'll punish the people maybe we'll get something for the victims or we'll just let them go like Hawk 2 a coin it's never too late to just let them go. All right anymore on those issues Ben did you have more to say on Trump coin or yeah I mean the the the El Salvador ones are really tricky one because it was a war zone and it did have the highest murder in the in the world and that was including the time of the Afghan war going on and I've been to our Salvador and I've spoken to regular El Salvadorians because I was very conflicted about it when I went there I had all these you know judgments about the way in which Bekele was acting and then I've been there three times and I've spoken to our Salvadorians and you know before they would lock the doors at night and hope that they didn't get killed and now they're going out for dinner and they're living normal lives like everyone else lives and you know he arguably fixed the country but the on the obviously you know people suffer there's going to be some innocent people that get locked up in jail just because they got the wrong tattoo there is something very deeply disturbing and troubling about this new um uh exporting of prisoners to to different countries which haven't got good human rights records and they aren't represented by you know they haven't gone given due process and there are going to be people and the real worry is that you know we've seen this plot in history before when you incarcerated a lot of people then at some point what's the final solution you know like that they're not you know they're not contributing to the economy at all and you have thousands hundreds of thousands of people all locked up what do you eventually end up doing with those people and maybe it's not Bekele maybe it's some other country maybe you know they get sent into a Venezuela and then Venezuela sends them somewhere else and and then maybe they just start killing them you know it's happened in history before and it can happen again so we need to be very wary um like these uh these these sorts of solutions yeah these sorts of solutions to problems but our Salvador was a war zone so it wasn't playing by the same rules which uh a lot of our developed countries where we don't have the same problems ourselves or have have has um on the Shikiloneel I thought it's funny how they had like 20 attempts trying to track him down and they had to like go buy the tickets and go to the Miami game at the NBA game to actually serve the papers um talky talky is it tough gig that poor guy you ever it was um who had to serve those papers but I bet he had a lot of fun doing it because he's shikiloneel after all then he got there in the end um but uh it's that social proof thing isn't it's the reason people invested in birdie made off is I don't think he can blame shikiloneel in that scenario because I mean FTX had all these VC investors and everyone else these people throw money at them um who who were validating this is like a legit company and um and then why would you think that shikiloneel would have more due diligence than those people so yeah so hopefully just like the guy of the hawk you know he's just being paid to you know yeah yeah I mean it's there were many more people in the room who should have known better who um support FTX so yeah free shikiloneel it is a change that shack is the one being punished for this yes the people got to get you maybe they'll ship them off to our Salvador and Venezuela look just to be I sorry you're picked very good I just want to say like I hope that El Salvador you know because it's a tough job you got to wrap you got to get the whole you got to clean up and you shouldn't have let it get to that stage in the first place your country shouldn't let it get to that stage where it's just a war zone but you clean up and then I hope that they can go through due diligence of each of those people and see um but first you know you have to and the judicial process needs to be cleaned up as well because usually what happens if your country is that corrupt they've taken all of that so if you try to do a good judicial process that's all corrupted by the cartels and so first thing is clean up when you're in that state and hopefully you don't let your country get in that state you know in the first place but there's no way in El Salvador's case it was it was the US um extra-dying MS-13 members so Americans second-generation Americans are extra-died to the El Salvador and they didn't have any skills or in a way of contributing to the economies they're just were gangsters and then you know there were US gangsters and they were sent to El Salvador um because our parents were El Salvadorian and that's where the real problems started to emerge in El Salvador so also actually started from extra-dying criminals to to their country but yeah I mean the Cady arguably did a very good job for that country in the scurry of the normal people in that country and liberated a lot of people who were they were really you know they were incarcerated because they lived in this very violent country um so yeah now they should be a judicial process and I think the murky areas when you start sending other countries that you're contracted to just incarcerate people because then you're not responsible for the judicial process the country in which they are sent from is responsible for it and then if you just keep moving these prisoners around it's like where does there's a responsibility lie and this is where you need to allow human rights um advocates in uh to give some agency to some of those people and try to build up some legal framework hopefully they'll get that yeah uh I think it was a senator van hall and who went down there Ben and he said the same thing that I think we're all kind of saying here where El Salvador had this reputation of being known as a technology country they were going to be the bitcoin country and they were you know turning it all around and now they're just kind of this place where Trump sends his prisoners and they're this prison camp country and that's why we've been warning you about dictators this whole time and you've been like it's fine he's a good dictator he's a friendly dictator he only used violence that one time bringing troops into the congress to mess with the supreme court only that one time every other time fine and it's because of this capricious decision dictators can make random decisions and democracies can say nothing because it's a dictatorship so I think it's a bad look for them I think they should get rid of the prisons they should free the prisoners they shouldn't trade human beings uh this is pretty obvious uh free which prisoners they should uh well it's a tough to get El Salvador the one while the ones that the United States sent down there are not there legally so the judge said to turn back the airplanes so if you wanted to follow the you know rule for law you'd send them back uh the ones that they picked up off the street well hey I'm there I'm legal immigrants that they we don't know we don't know Josh they yet we didn't give them due process and we didn't convict them in a very crimes so we don't know I mean I I've known people I've been sent there I've known people like I've kicked out of America for staying overstaying their visa and they're never allowed back like they got kicked out it's just part of if you overstay your visa in Australia you get kicked out if you overstay there's nothing checking anywhere in the world and there's no like court system you just don't have the paperwork and you're out yeah but they actually papers for the visa I mean you have to do the due process like you have to if you want to be a rule of law society that's happening we know because the judge said to turn it around and we know because of the people you know that he's like uh uh there's no crimes so we have you know have those the real people who are being hurt that thing where it's like that one innocent person we have at least two innocent people and the other ones we don't know because we didn't check their their papers we didn't check their crimes because we get hurt in a legal immigrant and I'm not saying that's the worst crime in the world I don't I actually think you know a true capitalist system there you don't need those those sorts of laws because you don't have social problems like that but but if you like you don't if you have a social security system you don't you need borders because the it'll ruin your social security system it'll just destroy it you can't have both and and so if you've got borders and someone's there illegally it's in the name it's not the worst crime in the world it should be a misdemeanor but uh and it shouldn't go to an else half a dory in prison for it but um you know they ought to check their papers I think that's what you're fighting for you gotta check their papers due process is when they check the papers yeah but I I don't know if that's not happening I assume that's happening I mean 92% of the people down there have no prison record so if it was a prison record or a criminal record that was supposed to send them down there 92% of them don't have them we know of at least two presumably on their face uh people who are innocent who are down there including one who had a court order saying do not export he was the the guy a brago garcia he was an informant i almost said snitch he was an informant and for the gangs and they said do not export if they had checked the papers but they didn't check the papers because they're in a big hurry because when you're breaking the law it's good to do it fast like a crime in and out fast and that's what they did they the judge told them to turn the airplane around they didn't turn it around because they're in a big hurry and and this is where we are we have these questionable people that we didn't check and and in the old days we always used to check like good people bad people check their papers we check so what happens when you have millions and millions of people that you have to get through you can't get millions of people Josh or you don't have any rights like when it comes back to you you would be one of the millions who don't get your papers checked it would be me it would be you it would be everyone because we would be but then there's real crimes and ob we can't do the real crime because we're going through millions and millions of people that are here or leaving you lying the system or higher and more people or whatever it is but if you stop giving people rights and you say that the rights are determined on there's you know if there's less people in line you get rights today if there's too many in line you don't get rights they're not rights then I mean it's pretty great though you've got a green card you're good if you don't then you're not good I mean isn't it a second it doesn't matter I mean I can I I mean I want to you're a P in passport I can show that I'm elected and now you're in the prison what do you do what they don't check it they put you on the airplane and now you're in the El Salvador prison what do you do yeah that's that's that's I mean and it you're sure you're one one person it doesn't matter there's thousands of gang members like it was worth it to get you out of there but from a human perspective like either we're concerned with the individual or we're not and and if we're concerned with the individual we need to have a system that allows them due process I mean that's that's what it was for what does the process look like do process is for that for that mr. Maynard by the saying these fairness inequality and legal proceeding are right guaranteed by the fifth and 14th amendments preventing the government of depriving individuals of life liberty or property without following fair procedures this right is about that's for the substantive due process but that's for people that are your citizenry it's it's all peoples it's it doesn't say citizen it says people because if you if you don't give it to everyone it doesn't work like because we just you know how do we just say you're not a person you're not a citizen so we didn't check you and then now you're in the prison I just the logistically there's a there's a problem there of getting through millions of people it's it's you're basically clog up the court system which is needed for actual real crime for for just 10 years and then you've been there for 10 years you've made a life of yourself then they kick you out it's also horrible there's ways of streamlining systems without taking away people's rights it's just yeah like because I'm asking the party passport what are our passport I mean that seems like a pretty quick thing to do where's your passport but there's millions of people we were in a big hurry we had to deport them we didn't have time to do that I don't I don't but I was never heard that they're not checking whether they're like you check if someone's illegal they're on record that they're not they're in the old system yes in the old system yes in the new system no in the new system you just deport them and then it's somebody else's problem because it's not even your prison which was the which it was the original old system when the Germans built the concentration camps in Poland they didn't build them a Germany you don't build them at home and then as soon as the prisoners are out of your country outside of Germany this is not our problem anyway we're way off topic here and you never win when you talk about Germany on the internet let's go to predictions or story of the week Ben Arck already working on over there at Ellen Fitz well I'm waiting for the Michael Douglas film escape from our Salvador not escape from a play it's going to be Michael Douglas age 90 center center because he's the center and he doesn't like Trump and he's sent to an ourselves in the prison he's got to escape and uh the snape is what snape is back snake not snake what's up well um what we working on uh I gave uh not so calm like a paint and um I don't know if you can get not so calm up Thomas using your magic screen sharing skills uh I went for uh I copied you know go-lang and I thought nostrils a bit complicated and technical so I thought I'd put a cute fluffy creature on it then uh it would be less intimidating and scary so now I've got a capybara sat there to make it less intimidating and scary so nostrils not scary anymore um so check out nostril.com and uh yeah yeah yeah did it go a nice little bit made a nice and simple and um soon we'll be adding the ability to buy and sell your nostril identities on nostril.com so go grab a nostril identity help support L&Bits. Uh yeah and but there was ultimately I was doing that and I was thinking to myself like surely there should be some fucking it shouldn't just be me like squeezing the redesign of nostril.com in over the weekend um and the beginning of the week surely there should be a focus group and there should be more than just me you know um you've got this whole industry of nostril and I know people google nostril they end up on nostril.com and then it's just me trying to make the website look appealing putting a capybara on it so hopefully hopefully one day will happen. Yeah it looks alright it's fun yeah yeah and put it on light mode Thomas put on light mode because the little thing on the top right there light mode it. Dan I didn't know you were such a designer. I was throwing shit at all for about 50 hours I made a little animation here where the little capybara sign to note sends it to the ostrich and he goes oh he verifies it with a key um I was trying to sort of show how Noster works in the most unantimitating way as possible but there we are yes that's that's that's that was much of my the beginning of my week. I love the acronym by the way I said is that really what the steps for? Yeah notes and other stuff transmitted by relays simple and it's the other stuff bit which is powerful though. Yeah the other stuff. Looks very good and I like that I like the little cute character. It worked for Garolung you know so why couldn't it work for Doster? All right Josh and Gala a prediction or a story of the week go ahead um my prediction is everything's going to be all right don't worry too much take care of your family be peaceful build business build value and uh make friends it's not it's not really a prediction it's just advice unwarranted unasked forward wise. All right Josh's advice corner and Victoria Jones of prediction her story of the week well my story of the week is that I got to a name drop that I was a friend of Ben to an American friend who was raving about Nostrad the other day so. I was like yeah I know the person who missed it and now I know he runs the website so there you go so well I got serious acoly points for knowing you Ben thought you might like to know that. Likapaint Ben. See and that's even before you put the liquor pain on there now it's going to get even bigger. Oh yeah it's as I'm stopping us now now we got a copy better. Well I just want to thank everybody for joining us it's been a long episode it's still good to give us a thumbs up down below and push subscribe uh say hello in the chat or say hello in the comments if you're watching this later on send us a wave or just say hi thanks to everybody for joining us and until next