The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Good evening, everybody. We're frozen again. The internet is broken from broken internet. I'll be trying turning it on and back off again. Back to the wired connection. The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Good evening, everybody. Josh Shigalla from thestandard.io. Let's roll. Oh, man. The internet. Like, try what about a hotspot from your phone? I mean, I'm at home. I have fantastic fiber optic internet. Fantastic. I tell you want to use it. I tell you want to use it. Try it. Yeah, but hotspots are good. They're hot. I guess we'll just keep going and threesome from the grotto. How's it going threesome? I think I'm back now. All right, sure. Back. Well, I'm back as well. Thanks for having me again, Tom. All right. Let's try to keep going. We don't know what's going on with the internet today. Moving on to issue one. Crypto analysts outline Bitcoin price to $2,220,000 in 2024. It's not just me, you and Adam back predicting the price of Bitcoin anymore. It's major analysts at major firms launching major tweets with large prices. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the idea that Bitcoin could not lose? What are you reckon, Victoria? I'll just carry on with Godless, shall I? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of hype around this at the moment. A lot of people are predicting the price going to the moon. And that's not unusual in Bitcoin. This happens from time to time. Normally, though, when it gets the stage where everyone's predicting that it's about to go up, then something's jump. Oh. Thomas, you lost you. I knew I should have stayed in bed. The old hotspot usually works best. I think we're still live guys. I think we're still live. Really? So I will carry on. Yes, this is fairly typical for this stage of Bitcoin's, well, not necessarily this stage of Bitcoin's price cycle, but normally, you know, often when everyone's predicting it's about to go to the moon, that's the point at which things can turn around. And pull the rug out from under your feet. So, yeah, I would always be careful. I mean, I don't, I personally, until there's some kind of catastrophe that breaks existing financial system, anything could happen in Bitcoin. So I'd never get too confident on the way up. I'd never get too scared on the way down. I think anything could happen, really. Let's go to Josh Shagalla. I think I'm back for a minute anyway. You are. It's magic. Magic zoom. Well, yeah, I just love how these random analysts come up and give a random number. It really makes my day. I love these articles. You could just have analysts predicts, you know, $2 million. I don't know. Yeah, it's good. 220. Sure. You're dividing infinity by 21 million. So it can just be any number really. Let's see. Let's see what happens. I hope so. That'd be pretty cool. Yeah, let's do it. Where would you show? And Josh, they've got even even lazier at writing these articles to where they just kind of quote someone on Twitter. You used to go to someone, call them on the phone, get a quote, write it down, ask some follow-up questions. Now it's just analysts guy on Twitter tweets large price prediction and guy who writes articles, writes article about price prediction. There's no work anymore. There's no substance to these articles. Yeah. And thank God it's not pronounced analyst. Lucky for that guy's job. It would be tons worse, but yes, I agree. Josh, it's mainly about if Bitcoin works and the proposition works and there's only 21 million coins and it's locked at that. The price is almost impossible predict because it could go so large, but everyone just keeps putting in these kind of pani-andet predictions like it's 70 now. It could go to 80. It could go to 100. You know, and you're like, what if it works? It could redefine value for the entire universe. It could go to millions and millions of dollars at coin. And to say that now is to predict something to say it'll go to 80 is like saying it'll go to 75. I mean, I'm not impressed, but they keep writing these articles. I think we're back. I think the internet just started working again, which makes no sense. It drives me crazy. But let's go to three sums. Your thoughts on Bitcoin to 220,000 dollars at coin. I think that's the number of the week, right? And if you go back just a few months, we were clamoring for 100,000 because we were down to below 50. I think when it comes down to it, we have people talking about it that haven't been talking about it for years, which is the big difference. And I think that's what you're seeing these, you know, even if it's a Twitter analyst, which is just a step below a market analyst, if we're honest, they have as much information that they're finger tips as the next guy, they're just going to say a number. And the fact is, though, that more people are saying numbers, which is I think the interesting takeaway here. You know, I know in my side, even though, you know, we do have plenty of Bitcoin, you know, on the Bitcoin side, I've got collectors and groups of members of the group that are really into, to that side, but just as much we're talking about it, even guys who don't own a single Bitcoin, it's there, it's present, it's sort of on the typical way, it's sung for the last couple of months. So I think that's the big change. The number two. I'm being told in the chat that even discussing the price of Bitcoin is causing the price to go down. But fortunately, we're joined by the only analyst on the internet that knows what's going to happen before it happens. The magic eight ball, the true predictor of Bitcoin. And now you are forced to predict against the magic eight ball, poor you. Victoria Jones will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week. Last week, all the analysts on this show, oh, we weren't here, but the week before they said higher, it went lower like the ball said higher or lower. Well, you know, I hate to disrupt a good trajectory. So I'll keep going with lower than. Josh, should go higher or lower this time next week. I don't know, but does this make me an analyst? You could be right about Twitter articles, but it would be a lot easier if you were the founder of Dogecoin. All they seem to do is write about everything that guy spits out of his mouth. That guy says, yeah, higher. Let's go. And let's go to three. So we've got higher and lower kind of a mixed panel so far, which way are you going to go? Well, I'm going to say that we're going to be higher than today. Higher and now predicting against the ball, will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Remember, if you shake one of these balls, it could cause bubbles. Will it be higher? Very doubtful. Very doubtful. So the ball is pessimistic. Moving on to issue two issue two, the upcoming Bitcoin halving is different from others before it. Here's what investors need to know. Josh Jagala, the media is here and they're here to tell you everything about Bitcoin, even if you've been in it for years, what's different about this Bitcoin having than the last ones? Well, it's starting off the same because this is these are the exact same articles that have popped up just before every single harvining. So that's it's sort of some sort of self referencing joke. But yeah, it's actually, I think it could be a little bit different. I think it could be right actually because these ETFs have caused the price to spike beforehand. Usually it collapses beforehand. Who knows why? Usually it's because people think that the halving is all priced in and then they want to sort of sell the news. And actually the news is guys, there's less of this stuff. So it's not really news. It's just a more of a quantifiable fact. And it's quantifiable through the price going up eventually because miners need to pay for the electricity. You know, mining has always been a job for holding. Even when Bitcoin was $1, $30, stuff like that. It was always, it was never profitable at the moment of mining the stuff. You had to hold it for a bit longer until you had enough of it until the price caught up to where you needed it. So generally miners have really strong hands and they don't let go until they can afford to sell it or go broke. So that's usually what miners do. And there's different techniques, you know, you can hold it. You can turn off your mining rig so you don't have any more bills. But you still hold the Bitcoin to pay for the electricity that you'd consumed earlier. So yeah, I think that at the end of the day is what happens to the price. But now with BlackRock consuming nine, what, 10,000 Bitcoin a day, that's just one ETF. We've got nine of these suckers. And then you've got the other ETF starting to make murmurs. There's one in Australia starting to pop up. There's ones in Europe. So they're just not enough of these things around literally. And now that we're heading towards from six, whatever it is, 6.45, down to like three and a half Bitcoin every 10 minutes being released. And BlackRock wants about 10,000 of them per day. Someone's something's got to give and that's probably going to be the price. Yeah, my favorite article around these times is the happening is priced in. And they tell you all the reasons why nothing's going to happen this time and the price has always gone up. And then there's always those people that sell immediately after they're happening. They're like nothing happened. It's supposed to go up that day. And then about three months, six months, nine months, whatever it's going to be later, everything goes up and everything's fine. And everyone retrospectively changes all their articles and deletes all their negative tweets. Let's go to three sums. What do you think about the Bitcoin having? Is it different this time as Josh says we have ETFs causing major demand. The media is aware of it this time. But I don't know that people really understand the dynamics and the basic reality that having is happening. I think, like Josh said, it's certainly a lot more people in the know now. And when you factor in the ETFs, it's going to be a major moving into them with this, you know, the smaller amount available. But to me, the question that I have really for the group, because I wasn't around celebrating the last two happens, right? You know, we were joking about it before we came on a little bit, but I imagine it was just, you know, early on it was just the real cognizant to get together and be like, you know, this is about to get exciting for us. Now when we're talking about the ETFs and all of the major corporations involved in this start to celebrate and celebrate in the media because it's a part of the narrative. Is it something that probably victorious is more than anybody, but is it something that we're seeing a real. You know, celebration is this the festive atmosphere going into the coming days or. A lot of this, I mean, I got to go first with my sour grapes because again, we had our cool little thing and we were the hip inside Bitcoin people and now the media is here in the big businesses and all the cool people are here. And we are not invited. We are not invited to any of the major parties. We haven't heard from anybody. Nobody's saying here's $5,000. You had really cool happening parties like the last two times. We want you guys to rent a ballroom or whatever. Haven't heard that. So the cool kids are here. They're having their own cool kid parties and we're not really invited. So that's changed. But again, our initial investment thesis, our belief in Bitcoin is still strong and it doesn't really matter. But yes, as far as being cool and hip, that's not us. Let's go to a Victoria. What do you think about having this time and the parties and such as three sums asking? I think we'll always be cool, Thomas, even if we're any cool and I'm a little niche. So, you know, don't worry. You know, and these things always come back. These things always come back round. So, you know, and there's a lot of benefit from wisdom and kind of being there. I've seen it done it. I mean, you know, I remember in 2017, the media were getting all excited about Bitcoin and this was just before it crashed again. And I don't know. I know that the harving normally anticipates a big run up in the price. But as you've said, you know, sometimes the harving will happen. It'll be a couple of months. There'll be a few months before it really starts to take off. So, given how much hype there is from a lot of new people in the space who don't really understand what's going on, you know, the massive disappointment could actually lead to a huge crash. You know, because as you say, you know, they expect to go up straight away. They've heard all these things about the harving in many respects. It's probably already priced in. And so they're all disappointed and us oldies we sit there again. So, you know, and if nothing else, that will make you cool again. So, yeah, I mean, we've kind of been there, done that, seen it. And as I've said many times before, I don't think the fact that Wall Street's involved in this party is necessarily a good thing because, you know, because they've got such resources as far as they can run it up, they can also run it down. And in the broader financial system, you know, there are memories of trouble on the horizon. I mean, a lot of people have been predicting rate cuts, but with inflation going up, a lot of people are saying those are now not on the table and a lot of the rise in the stock market and consequently also the rise in Bitcoin will be tied to the fact that a cut in the interest rates could also could, you know, indicate that, you know, the stock market's going to start rising again. So if they can actually keep interest rates high, that could actually have a huge, huge implications in terms of money velocity in the economy. So even though they're actually creating money behind the scenes, higher interest rates slow it down and there are members of problems in the commercial property markets and stuff like that. That, you know, if we have a huge crisis in the traditional financial system, Bitcoin will take a hit because as good as the technology is not everyone under people are only just starting to understand it, they don't fully understand it. And if there's a sudden shock, you know, a lot of people could be blindsided by that. So yeah, I don't know, I think I think it's going to be a roller coaster. The exact timing of it is really hard to predict, but it's going to be a roller coaster. I can tell you that much. Very much takes me back to my high school economics class. And I think I was taught by the wrestling coach. But still when you reduce supply and you reduce potential supply by 50%. It doesn't instantly increase demand, right. People still have Bitcoin on stock. They don't have to go buy it right away. It's not like they're existing savings or anything goes down by half. So the idea that people think it's going to take off right away. Like Victoria said from the having like even people like planning their parties for midnight or whatever and pretending it's new years even though look at their watches and their investment will double or triple like at that very minute. And again, if you're the media or if you're planning one of these star studded fantastic parties with all the analysts who bought you brought you nothing but truth about Bitcoin for the past decade, you can rewind to them telling it was only drug money and that it's disgusting and a pet rock and all these horrible things they said for years. But again, they're on it now. So that doesn't you know that erases the past. But Josh, the goal have you been invited to any star studded parties. I was invited to a party by our friend famous Bitcoin singer Tatiana Marose. But nothing from CNBC, nothing from gray scale or ETF black rock. And I think that's one of these people. No one no one banging my door down and again, you know, like we have three sums here. So I need a brag. You know, I'm a famous NFT artist sold in Christie's and Sotheby's still no invitations still no invitations. Hey, it reminds me a lot of the revenge of the nerds quadrilogy. You cannot, you know, you can't take the nerd out of the nerd. It doesn't matter what happens in life, you'll still be the nerds. Anyway, I, yeah, look, the having having parties have always been fun. I don't know what's happening actually this time around up. I got to make some calls. I'll probably hang with obviously we don't want to over promote it here. But of course we're going to have our world crypto network, King hot like always. And people can come and they could drop by and you could even go to other parties. We're not like exclusive. You know, you have to sign a contract with us. You won't go to any other parties. We're not doing that. But yeah, no, we'll do our thing, Josh. But the bigger people will do their things and they'll have bigger financial people. And they'll probably tell you how many millions of dollars you could make right on that show. Maybe even in the thumbnail, like one of those. You'll make a million dollars open my mouth. So it's never too late. I wonder what time it's going to be this this year. That's the other thing. You know, being Australia is always at the ars end of every time zone. It doesn't matter. It's either really late or really early. But yeah, you know, traditionally, it's always been a fun time for sure. And eventually something happens. I've never been one to know what's going on until the last minute when someone says, hey, Josh, come and join us. But yeah, there's been there's been a couple of really good live streams over the years where people join in and you get everyone from, you know, what's his name from Twitter. Jack Dorsey, that was still while he was censoring everyone about Bitcoin. So, you know, like Twitter was actively shadow banning and and answering people because they were talking about Bitcoin. Because what was seen as so so many scams and stuff like that. That that was at the time when Facebook banned it. Google banned any advertising Twitter ban and be advertising and when they said advertising also anyone talking about it. So, yeah, yet Jack Dorsey would pop up on some of these parties. That's how like excited people got. Yeah, we'll see what happens now if we're going to see Larry think they're, yeah, harbing. We'll probably see Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank. Like these are all the types of, you know, noobs that come along and everyone celebrates them because they've got deeper pockets, I guess, or traditional traditional deeper pockets. I'm not sure. They surely weren't visionaries at the start or maybe they because I have heard some of these people in the past actually crap all over Bitcoin and then turn around Jamie Diamond is a typical one like he he'll sometimes say good things. Well, he'll do good things like, you know, launched an ETF or something, which you know it's arguably a good thing. And but publicly he'll crap all over it. I think even what's his name the gold guy. Peter Shifty Peter Shifty. He's, you know, his son's all over Bitcoin, but he isn't, you know, anyway. We can, we can only imagine Josh that everyone's coming around and then in another four years will have a live stream with Mr. Wonderful Mark Cuban Jamie Diamond the head of the Federal Reserve and we'll all reminisce about how stupid they thought we were for decades and decades and decades. So I think I think we answered your question there three, some of it. No, not not expecting any major party invites yet. But remember at its core what's amazing about this event and we've watched it a couple of times here. I wish I'd been there three or four times. That would have been amazing, but at its core, you're going to watch a screen and it's going to be putting out blocks and let's just say it's like a five reward block. It's going to go to five five five two point five two point five. And that's it. That's the entire event. Obviously the numbers are different. It's going from three to one point five or something in that range. I don't forget the exact number. But yeah, it's hardly an event. And then you look at the price and your wallet and everything and you're like it's going to go. And nothing happens because people have Bitcoin. They haven't run out yet like supply squeeze is not instant, but it's amazing when you do cut production by 50%. No one else. No one else does that. No one but Bitcoin. But let's move on to the next issue. Check out world crypto network at world crypto network.com. We've got hundreds, maybe even thousands of videos like this. You can click on the on this day button and find out what videos we made on this day in the past 2018 16 15. Even 2014 all for free on world crypto network.com. Moving on to issue three Van X CEO says brokerage platforms aren't recommending Bitcoin ETFs. There's a long way to go. I don't know what it will take to get these people to understand Bitcoin. It's on their own platform. They make all the brokerage fees for it. They profit by selling it. And yet they aren't recommending it to their customers yet. They're buying it in boat loads as Josh said. They're buying more Bitcoin that are made every day. Then exist. But they're not recommending it yet. Victoria Jones. What do you think about these risk adverse financial advisors who aren't recommending Bitcoin yet and the fact that if they do start recommending it, then there'd be huge demand inside the ETFs. Well, I mean, I do, you know, in spite of the fact that I think Wall Street is largely run by arrogance and hubris. I think there are a few who do understand the danger that Bitcoin poses to the existing financial system. You know, at the moment, the existing financial system is run by numbers, you know, since money lost its tie to gold. It's kind of loosely been tied to oil and then even more loosely tied to debt. There's nothing verifying those numbers on Wall Street at all. And of course, Bitcoin comes along with its verifiable mechanism that disrupts all of that. And so I think there are some who understand that very well. And it may well take time before that has an effect, but that's going to have huge implications that I think some of them understand, but maybe not everyone. I don't think everyone understands what the implications of this will be. And for some people, it's quite scary. So it's a bit of a double edged sword really. I mean, there are some people who are excited about it because they believe that the price will go up, which it will for those who hold it any more safe for those who hold hold a lot. So that's an incentive. The wider implications of what Bitcoin does in terms of what it's designed to do. I don't think even Wall Street fully understands the implications of that yet. And I just think that's great. I think that's an advantage for our side and everything. And I love the idea that they'd have some worry about bringing it in. But at the same time, that guy's making money and that guy's making money and that guy's making money. And there's only a matter of time before they got to let it in, right? Yeah, the greed will get them in the end. And that's what we're relying on. It's beautiful. Beautiful. And the thing is that because they'll recommend it right at the top. And like we said before, they have the money to make it go up. They have the money to make it go down. Josh, what do you think they're not even recommending these things yet yet? They're buying hand over fist every day. These are the financial advisers you can trust. These are the guys on CNBC that you want to give your money to every day. No problem. Their financial advisers have never been keen on Bitcoin purely because of the massive volatility that's always been there. And so it's generally largely a bottom bottom up industry. And so we're aware with the grassroots support, ignoring all craziness being reckless as with their money. And then the lawyers and the VCs come in and then later, you know, the institutions and governments. And so it's really been the other way around. And that's that's always been a fact. And so when you get the financial advisers right now telling you don't buy it, that's just because they don't know is tomorrow going to be the crash. So they're just scared. The fact is that people see their mates. They talk about it around the fireplace at the pub. And they're like, man, I think I should just buy a little bit. And if you have access to leverage through Wall Street tooling, then now with these ETFs, you can go along pretty pretty well. And you can put some of it for one K pretty easily and all these other things. So I think it's only a matter of time where people just tend to ignore their analysis and buy it anyway. But we've said it before on the show as well, what happens is that when Bitcoin, when you should actually buy Bitcoin is when no one's talking about it, when it's right down that they remove it off the ticker on CNN and NBC, they remove it from all the mainstream media because it's right down. It's boring as hell. And then when everyone starts talking about it is when it's really all time highs and your phone's blowing up saying, hey, I've heard you talk about this stuff. Can you help me buy some? And you have to ignore it because if you help them right now, they'll they'll also blame you when it when it crashes. So you know, there's all sorts of it's it's a really annoying. I've just stopped recommending it all together all the time, except for when it's right down low. That's what I'm like, hey, by the way, have you thought of Bitcoin or Ethereum or any, you know, like some major blue chip technological advancement in this space. It is amazing, Josh, they're going to wait right until the end to recommend it after all the ETF hype, all the happening hype, just at the end, they'll be like, hey, maybe you should buy Bitcoin, right, right when it goes down. Let's go to three sums. What do you think about the ETFs not even recommending it yet, despite all the massive sales that we've seen. Well, I think that it's still just a sliver of their broader portfolio, right. And so look, blockchain is a little scary when it comes to this sort of speculation in the sense of it's being finite and transparent and Bitcoin in particular, right, that you can you can see what you're up against. And most of the financial markets play in all sorts of obfuscation and manipulation and and that's the broader speculative play and most investment, right. And so to imagine that these companies that have made their entire, you know, business out of that sort of a space where it can't be tracked and it can't be, you know, acknowledged it what's truly what, you know, what makes up the true value there, when there's so much manipulation, it's hard to wean them off of that. And I think that's what it comes down to more than anything is a it's just a little sliver of what they're putting out there. But B it has a lot less that they can sort of play with opposed to the fact that, you know, it's it's right there at the ledger and the blockchain tells all. And I think it's going to take some time before we get to a point where the stability of it holds through and then they're a little more comfortable with it, but in time being I mean, I think they'd rather play with things that are a lot cloudier than something is. Cut and drive and obvious. Well, they also don't get those sweet kick packs, you know, the doctors get all those free pens with all the different kind of drugs on them. They don't have that a pharmacy rep coming around saying, hey, you need to represent the Bitcoin, you know, if you promote the Bitcoin to your next 10 clients, we can get you some sweet box seats at the next game. Nobody does that for Bitcoin Satoshi never calls anybody up and if you want to put in a million dollars 10 million dollars, no free seats, no pretty girls, no free pens, nothing, no promotion at all. I don't know how we're going to make it anywhere. Let's move on to the next issue, really quick one here. Hong Kong is seen as approving Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs as soon as Monday. This might even have caused the price of Bitcoin to take off, but like Josh said earlier, we are seeing international ETFs, not just America and perhaps are both Bitcoin and Ethereum. Let's just go really fast. Josh, a guy, what do you think Hong Kong ETFs? Yeah, yeah, there's only a matter of time and then they'll also be a theory of ETFs. There'll be other ETFs. So it's, yeah, it's only a matter of time. So get on there. Hong Kong, Australia, Europe, they're the major hubs. And let's go to three sums. Do you think this will be the beginning or the end of international ETFs will other countries catch on to this obvious financial benefits? I think it puts us like 10 or 11 countries that have ETFs that are offered and there's 200 countries out there. I mean, not all of them have a market trading, but obviously I think it's the tip of the iceberg. And let's go to Victoria. I know you're not a fan of the ETFs, but the virus is spreading worldwide as predicted previously on this show many times once the banks went, they'd all go like dominoes, whether it's in their interests or not, whether they did the research or not, think of the FTX disaster. We now doubt that they even do any work at all, even the smallest bit of due diligence. You know, Johnny was in and Freddie was in and Paul, they all invested too. But what do you think now we have the virus going international? Certainly seems like it. They all love a good bound wagon, didn't they? So we're all jumping on. And then there'll be like Lemmings going off at the same time. Just like watch out below. That will be the best point when they're making Bitcoin and crypto illegal. And we're saying, hey, just a few years ago, you had us on Wall Street, you had everyone out and they pushed the button, they rang the bell, they pulled the switch and they're like, forget, forget, forget, forget back into the box. And we've got some other. Go ahead, Josh. Just just quickly before we move forward, I think one of the biggest parts of the story is when we have another global financial crisis, it will probably be the Bitcoin ETFs that will be able to bail in all of all of it. So we could see these massive hordes of Bitcoin being able to be used to bail out the entire system if it got that big. And remember, these are all custodial. All of them. And so, yeah, it's it's it's quite a danger to the whole it's it's quite quite a danger actually to have these. And what the first big news event I'll be waiting for is first Bitcoin ETF to be hacked. And and drained in one foul swoop. So it's only a you know, because all of these, all of these are holding coins on a major exchange. We all know what happens when you hold your coins on a major exchange. The likelihood of being hacked goes up a lot. Sure, they might have a multi-seag or something like that. But if you get too intense with your security, you could also screw that up and never have access to it again. So it's either going to be we've lost the keys. We don't know how to access it because we were too secure or we weren't secure enough and we've been hacked. So this is the problem this way. I've never been a big fan of things like ETFs or things like governments holding Bitcoin because it's there's too many players involved in securing your own thing. So I think the most basic assets general like gold or traditional bear based assets are quite easy because humans understand how to hold physical things pretty well and have authority over those. But digital assets are so new digital security so new. It's very very difficult to hold on a mass. So yeah, it'll be interesting. It'll be very, very interesting to see the first Bitcoin ETF hack. Well, and when the first Bitcoin ETF is hacked, Josh, they'll have my absolute favorite conversation. They'll say, how many Bitcoin did they take? They'll say, well, they took them all, sir. It's like, how many trucks did they have? No trucks, sir. It was all one transaction. They were here. And then they were gone. And you can't reverse it and you can't undo it. And it doesn't how good matter how good your computer guy is. What schools he went to all that. It's over in a second. Well, this is what's fascinating as well is the Bitcoin ETF yet. That's true. But an Ethereum ETF because it's proof of stake. You have such large hordes of it sitting in blackrock and the other ETFs that they can go to the other ETFs and say, hey, let's reverse that transaction. And they'll reorg the chain because they own so they hold so much of it, which means that they control the voting power. And this is why personal reserve is really scary for this traditional mechanisms like ETFs. I think this is why proof of proof of work is probably superior in that sense. I know you guys won't like it, but it sounds like a bug, but it might be a feature that does sound what large financial institutions would like if they had a magical oopsie button if one of their brothers was hacked, especially for hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, devastating results. Bad for the hacker, you know, who found the loop good for the financial institution. So if we were to compare Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs as much as I know, Josh is saying it's a negative. It might be seen as a positive. So that'll be interesting to see how that turns out. We got a couple more small short quick stories. We're going to continue our segwit and a UASF victory tour here as coin base. One of the companies that was against segwit that was against UASF that was in favor of segwit 2x, which had bad code that broke a few weeks into its running has again officially capitulated to the lightning network. The lightning network is being added to coin base. People can now use it and maybe stop ignoring it and excluding it from their mainstream media articles when they talk about Bitcoin. Let's go to three sums really quick. What do you think about coin base adding the lightning network and again completely giving in from the block size war victory to UASF and segwit. I think it was bound to happen. Honestly, yeah, didn't go as a surprise, but I think I don't think they were going to get in their own way on that one. I was surprised they waited so long. I've always surprised when they do capitulate because they are such a rich and powerful organization, even though they started off down the hall from one of my failed startups. But yes, it's great to see them come around and as much as it's fun to make fun of them and push them under the water and so forth, they're a big company. They're a bit coin supporting company and now they're supporting lightning. So we do welcome them back. Victoria Jones, what do you think about coin base giving in and accepting the lightning network perhaps the one of the true ends of the block size war here. Yeah, I think it's fantastic news and just goes to show, you know, from the block size wars, just, you know, how important that discussion was and. And you know, we won and the success and the victory is now following through and ultimately I think that's a good thing for humanity. So yeah, coin basis had to capitulate and hopefully that won't be the last battle that they lose because I quite sure they'll be more in the future. Josh, Shagalla, long time ago, I made a list of all the companies in favor of segwit and opposed and it was just mad Bitcoin and like dish wall or odd wall or something that was with us and all the other ones all opposed it and now everything has changed. What do you think, Josh, a digital currency group coin base, the founders, the kings, accepting lightning network. Yeah, I. You know, people bag lightning network, I think it's got a lot of a lot of problems still I wish it had moved faster, but I think a lot of it was psychological, I think a lot of it because of the block size wars, people just didn't want to give it a go. And I do find it's it's scary because it's a lot more custodial than then base layer, it doesn't have to be you can run your own node and and that way you are actually custodian of your channel, but it isn't the panacea, but I do think. If you have a if you zoom out actually I just got the chart here, we now have 300 or four million dollars locked up in value within the lightning network. So it's it's it's growing a lot and a lot of the past it's been just basically the bear market, you know, since 2023. No, halfway through 2022 to 2020 almost 2024, it was pretty much going sideways in terms of TVL. So and it's been going up with the bull market, obviously the bull market, you know, goes up in dollar value because it's the bull market. So it's kind of a weird metric, I'd like to see TVL in terms of units of Bitcoin and what's happening there. I'm still trying to find that I can't find it's right now, but yeah, so it's I think it's it's really important that we find layer two more layer two solutions because humans are insatiable in terms of how much data they want to put onto the onto the cheap blockchain. This is the this is the false narrative that gets pumped out of there constantly is that you if you, you know, our blockchain super cheap. Oh yeah, all right, well, wait until you're actually mainstream and used because everyone will put weather data my Apple watch data that just chuck everything in there if it's cheap enough. The only thing that can stop it is price so and the other way to stop that is to have as many layer two as possible as many layer two as possible because that way you can then scale outwards so you can have dedicated use cases for certain things. The that the pro that does comes with problems as well, though, because you start to separate liquidity and we're seeing that in the in the Ethereum space that liquidity becomes very, very fragmented across all of these layer two's so you don't have mega deep liquidity on one single L to you have some liquidity here some liquidity there and some liquidity there, so you might need to buy smaller amounts. This becomes a problem for large institutions, but from the ground level it's not that pro and people are working on it. There are cross chain aggregators working very, very hard to try to pull this together so maybe a transaction just takes longer as but as these bridges get faster. That might even go away so there's there's a lot of work happening crypto cryptographic work as well to try and prove ways of finalizing or having more finality in a shorter space while not not breaking them breaking the safety. So yeah, L to's are important lightning networks important. It's it didn't really work on the Ethereum space there the lightning network concept rather what worked is just adding more in the Bitcoin language side chains or drive chains or other other chains like that. It's not the best UX I got to say having L to's the best UX is L one just basically and that's why people are so pissed at the whole thing it's like I'm just used to be able to say send and it works and I can see it and it's gone. L to's is annoying the UX is terrible so if there's you know really good UX designers out there there's a massive opportunity there if you can make a good user experience while interfacing with L to's then you're going to be very, very successful. Now we're running out of time we do have a couple more issues avenge sevenfold seasons past is turning heavy metal fans into blockchain evangelists I just thought this was a really cool issue it's a heavy metal band I've never heard of them I'm sure they're great they have their own death bats NFTs they have token gated ticket sales with ticket masters and now they're having a season pass where fans can subscribe and get rewards activities linked to the band. It just sounds like a really cool use of blockchain web 3 and NFT technology three some what do you think about avenge sevenfold and they're interesting season pass. I think they're established enough that they could do it okay they've got the history and the success that they they're not going to put their their rise in jeopardy right but I think this is what we're going to see more and more I think blockchain is for ticketing whether it's sports or concerts is going to be one of the easiest use cases for most people to enjoy and I think that that all that's possible. The nice thing that they're doing is they let these fans have their experience build up collect the pieces of their fandom essentially and then because they're on on chain they can sell them and deal with them individually right so it's not dependent on a driving ecosystem that does it let's the fans were to take control of their own experience and I think that's the key that that's understood here but I think I think we're going to see it across all entertainment and I think it's very important. I agree I'm excited to see these ideas in practice we used to theorize about these ideas and we said yeah if you're a band you could sell the subscription you could sell tickets and people could collect the digital ticket stubs you know in the same way they collect the real ticket stubs but like you're saying the big part about that is being in a separate system if this was happening at ticketmaster.com and you could only sell them through ticket master if you sold one for a hundred K they take a giant cut that closed down the market they investigate you there's all kinds of things. They'd have to do if they own the market whereas what's neat about this is you kind of put it off on its own chain on its own system and then people decide if they want to buy it people decide if they want to resell it rather than one company. Absolutely and I think that's always been the case we will see you know even you know whether it's a live nation or or you know the big promoter sort of coming together and taking different clients and assembling them into many markets that's going to happen and it's not a bad thing necessarily because determining that the avenged sevenfold fans can figure out an entire marketplace ecosystem of their own is a stretch but I think that the you know as you know the singers talking about it that that you know he sees young bands that are coming in this now being used to block chain technology and being used to these things starting out from this way that's what we're really going to see the change drive. And in sports in particular you know we can talk about another time but the baseball aspect of it the ticket and aspect and the experience but it's there and it's coming it's good to see. And while you said this isn't established band and certainly not financial advice but the dream on this is that you would come up with the band and you would see him at a small venue and you would buy the early NFTs or the early album support or whatever it's going to be and you'd have this little thing of collectibles and it would keep you even closer to the band where you're not just attending shows you're collecting part of it and then in the early days when they need money for gas for the van you know you are financing the van you. Band and I think that could be really exciting for people and to be involved at that level but again everyone has to make their own choice oh internet's back great Victoria Jones what do you think about NFTs and a band like a avenged sevenfold selling a season pass and having all of these options to promote their music. Yeah well i'm all for innovative ideas it'll be interesting to see how it plays out I mean i'm not i'm not culturally involved with the you know that kind of music or even the music scene in particular it's never been a particular interest of mine but yeah it looks very interesting and i'll be interested to see how it plays out. Yeah i have a vaccination with with ticketing because it's been there's been countless projects trying to break that that concept and it's never really taken off and i don't know why because. It makes a lot of sense like eyes and if i was an artist i don't know what to price by tickets i could guess but i'm probably going to get it wrong because there's no market i'm just setting the market and what tends to happen and it used to drive me insane. You have like i'm guessing we're still alive but yeah the problem is that you you go to buy a ticket like i remember wanting to go see rage against machine and it would sell out in seconds. Or it wouldn't sell out you just it would the website wouldn't work and you have this long line waiting or they'd have to like sell it in blocks or it was just a nightmare when really what what is important there is price surging you need price surging. Because that's the market saying there's there's a lion here and markets don't like lions true free markets get rid of lions and cues because they price the price it in so it sucks because you know all the equity people will be like oh yeah but only the wealthy get it now yeah but this is just what this is how you price scarcity. And so this is what happens so you are if you have price surging and secondary markets you can say you can put your tickets up for sale and then the scalpers actually play a good role now because they they find a proper price for your thing and maybe within NFT you can take a cup from the scalpers in the secondary markets. And at the end of the day the next concert you have you can now look at the historical pricing and go okay well it looks like I should have raised my prices a lot more because the secondary market was going for you know three times more than what the original price was so I can sell it for more and maybe the secondary markets will then lose out because they'll reprise back down or no one will show up so I think it's it just makes absolutely. It's absolutely sensed to have more of a secondary market on ticketing because it's always been a bit of an annoyance where it's either too cheap and and you know that you don't get a ticket because there's this massive lion or way too expensive and then no one rocks up to your show. Let me tag that. So the neat thing about the fan engagement aspect of it not just in price discovery of the marketplace okay but for example if you've got an event that that takes off the secondary market goes up you know 10 X and all of a sudden you know everybody's clamoring to sell because they're making such a profit the band could see via blockchain who the fans were that didn't do that who actually bought the ticket and used it and went to the next show and that you could see loyalty there via blockchain that contract the true fans not just the ones that are there you know making the quick buck and then reward those holders via blockchain and wallet connectivity and say okay you've come to the shows you bought the ticket you showed up the show you didn't succumb to the secondary pressures and then you could you get extra access or early access for what have you and so you know that sort of customer management or fan management that's available by watching what happens that's what I do with with my arms. I know who buys it originally who sells it on the secondary what they paid for it all of that by taking all that into account it changes that fan experience. So true so true very very valid point and you know since the rise of TikTok because this whole follower thing through has been really important for creators right you get these followers whether it's on Twitter or whether it's on YouTube. And you can continue engaging with these followers the problem with what happened with TikTok is they went we don't need subscribers we'll get rid of the subscribe button and we'll just algorithmically show you things that we think you want. And so the followers drop away this sort of thing and I think it's really important to have for artists and engage community that they that they've got that they can continually talk to and this is what blockchain allows well what you exactly what you were saying there is to keep that engagement keep that follow aspect where you can see what's happening through through on chain data yeah it's it's not going to be a lot of work. Yeah yeah it's a really great point well yeah important one. Well I think the zoom client updated itself in the middle of the show so that's good so I'm kind of back. We have one more issue we're going to talk about in nodding ham they had a Bitcoin fest and they say they went really well there's this cool video it's got a bunch of people we know in it. So we're just going to go to Victoria Jones just a quick rehab how did it go a recap how did it go at Bitcoin fest in nodding ham England. Yeah it was fantastic actually it was a real grassroots effort in order to put something together mainly for the local community started because the low we recently located our meetup there and a lot of the football club were people in the football club were asking what this Bitcoin thing was. So the idea was to try and educate the local community and yeah it was great fun you know people really came together in order to make it its success and the organisers put in a lot of work I did a series of interviews before the event just to help introduce people to the speakers because they weren't necessarily well known and it was really great and you know following on from that I've just passed on a message well an article from BBC News apparently the Winkle Vos twins have just been a lot of work. So the Winkle Vos twins have just invested 3.6 million in Bitcoin in real bed for football club so this is a could be a sign of things to come for football clubs and cryptocurrency developments so yeah watch the space. Very cool glad to hear the event went well and congratulations to the football club that sounds like a great investment but we're running out of time so head towards the end here so we're going to go to prediction or story of the week 3. So are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week go ahead. I guess the story of the week is that I've got the big transit the movement the big migration taking place as I leave the tezos blockchain behind and move full floors into to Ethereum and the base layer 2 so it's a combined force there but it's got my project all of us ahead of the having and it's sort of our big focus is migration to eat. So that's all we've been talking about for a couple months and it continues to be the story of the of the time. Very cool and where can people are you moving out your side. So just a quick question so you moving to base as in coin bases L2 or Ethereum base layer both of them but so no like it yeah both of them because I've got some some additions that we do in the hundreds of thousands and there's a lot of transactional stuff so. So the non existing gas fees on base the layer 2 is really helpful but the majority of the collections stays on on the more. Excellent and for those who haven't heard or haven't checked out 3 some's got his own NFT baseball league you can buy and sell players you can be a manager of a team where can people learn more about this if they want to check it out. Discord is just discord slash grotto and the grotto is the center piece of the whole project so that's what we meet up and and do it all up. Very cool thanks 3 some for being here I checked out like a draft once it was very exciting they were doing like a random number generator and people were winning or losing and it just sounds like a really fun engagement activity to have with NFTs that they're not just a you know baseball cards that you own but their players on. Team and they win they lose and all of that stuff I think it's really cool stuff appreciate it's awesome. All right and Victoria Jones a prediction or a story of the week go ahead. Well you kind of took my story of the week from me already I didn't realize you're going to mention the Bitcoin Fest but yeah it was a Bitcoin Fest that we had last weekend which really was a which was a great event. I was also running the live stream with my daughter and that's available on my YouTube channel so to toe she's page.com so if you're interested in what the speakers had to say then that's worth. Looking at the video quality we struggled a bit because the Wi-Fi connection wasn't great but we had a clear display of the slides and you can still hear what people are saying so yeah check it out and obviously we've got this little montage which has been put together by one of the video guys apparently. He videoed the talks as well so they're going to be coming out in the future so we're so yeah what come from that and we'll be excited we're going to try and plan a similar event for next year as well. It does make a big difference if you run a Bitcoin event during the bull market or in the bear market I know we went to a bit brum and Birmingham and it was a great event and Joe did a great job but he said yeah if only you'd been here two years ago things were amazing and it's just must be so hard for these organizers they do. Great work they set up everything up in advance and sometimes you have a huge day sometimes you have a small day and it's really much more about the market than any work that you did or didn't do as an organizer so it's great to see what that. That's what's always been hard for for my Yorker blockchain days somehow they've always timed it just wrong but it's kept it really nice and niche and small which has been fun for the people going it's really good. Because you get really top quality people very very smart people doing great stuff in the space or being up to talk to each other which is which is great. Oh you have lost your sound. Thomas is having a bad tech day everyone but there he is he's back. No he's not back all right well I'll round it off thank you very much to everybody until next time bye bye.