The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Hey, hey, happy Friday. Josh Tagala from the standard.io. Well, good evening there. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one, issue one, Sam Bankman-Freeze sentence for 25 years in prison for his role in the collapse of the FTX crypto exchange. Yes, they wanted 110 years while his lawyer said, how about six? When they decided that 25 would be fine instead of perhaps 50 years. Ross Ulbrich, of course, got four or more consecutive life sentences for running a very similar website where he did not intentionally steal from his customers. Sam Bankman-Freeze committed historic fraud, causing his entire company to collapse. On the stand, he apologized to the people he'd worked with, saying that he had wasted a lot of their time and work and they put a lot of work into it. We have Beeple's contribution 25 years later, a robotic Sam stamped with FTX holding the head of P Diddy with an interesting Caroline Ellison placement on the groin from Beeple who gets more and more extreme every day. And we also want to identify Dan the dark pill who said a pitifully grotesque ending, quoting John Wang, the courtroom artist who said, the courtroom was much smaller than I imagined. I exchanged hello with his parents who sat on the bench next to me, film writers, sketch artists and journalist I'd SPF like a zoo animal. Everyone stood as the judge walked in and he contributes this chalk drawing of Sam clearly weighed down by the cuffs, a broken and beaten man. But still 25 years he could get out in no time at all with good behavior. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the final sentencing of SPF at 25 years? Well, it's a pretty historic fall from grace, I have to say, not that we weren't hoping for that. Many of us though, you know, we've discussed this possibility on a number of occasions and of course, you know, we wonder where the big epic law cases are for those responsible for the 2008 financial crisis. And as you rightly compare, you know, Paul Russell, oh, break, who got four consecutive life sentences, it doesn't seem to be particularly equitable, does it? So yeah, I think our legal system is getting out of hand really, it's becoming a law unto itself. I think the principles on which it was set up are, you know, they're completely inconsistent and in those sorts of situations, it's difficult to feel secure that you're really getting proper justice. You know, I think given what Sam Bankman food did, you know, I think 100 years was entirely justifiable. You know, many people's lives will have been ruined equally for that length of time and also their children's lives as a result of what he did and people similar. And also as Josh has pointed out in the past, you know, what about all the people who, you know, big them up, the people who are putting one the front of Forbes magazine, he didn't do their due diligence. I mean, you know, he's just the full guy really for a crime that extends way beyond one single individual, you know, and I think that's, that's a poor testament to our society right now. Well, and there was also other people who worked there. We're focusing on SPF. We put him in jail for 25 years, but we're apparently fine with the Fong guy and Carolyn Ellison and again, all the other people down the line who must have known that it was a scam or at least dirty. They're popping these pills to stay up later to trade. They're approving loans and large business transactions in hidden, disappearing secret chat rooms. Like what kind of organization are you involved in? If you're, if you're working for Dr. Evil, you might want to blow the whistle, but apparently we're totally fine with everyone working for Dr. Evil. And it's like a big man or the heroic view of history where you only look at Napoleon or you only look at Martin Luther King. You don't look at any of the other people below them. It's like they're forgotten. There was tons of business analysts, tons of people working their traders, computer programmers. Even they talked to that one guy. He said, yeah, we used to have a rule that the accounts couldn't go negative in the code, but we took that out. We turned that off and we allowed the accounts to go negative. You're allowing the fraud, you're part of the fraud. So I think there's a lot more people that need to be punished. And again, Ross wrecked some people and it is unfortunate. Some people got bad drugs or overdosed or whatever. But generally the website was used for large amounts of money, for large amounts of cannabis, whereas SPF stole customer funds from everyone when he wanted an advertisement with Tom Brady, when he wanted to meet Pete Addy or Puff Daddy or whatever it is. He did, he would just scoop up some funds and have the meeting and a Republican Democrat on the board, below the board, whatever it was. He was paying everybody out of this giant piggy bank. And I don't think he got punished enough. I think he's going to be out rehabbed, working at a financial institution, doing more advertising soon. Josh Shagalla, what do you think about SPF? Only 25 years, which seems like a lot if it holds, but you have to assume maybe 10 years, maybe five years. It's obviously not a violent person. We don't expect that from him. But yes, it will be reduced beyond this. Yeah, I mean, I could never be a judge. Like I just find it very, very difficult. And I'm a man that likes to solve problems with math and with code and build walls and structures around systems where you can't escape that rule set. It's truly regulated by math. So all of these people, and this is the thing, it's like why isn't the SEC held accountable? The SEC is foundationally and fundamentally involved in these centralized exchanges. And you get this kid who's obviously a total net wit. And I would say also evil because this sort of narcissistic behavior, where you just don't care about other people's funds. Or maybe he was just so diluted in himself that he's just like, I've got billions. I'll just buy this and buy that. I don't know. But the thing is that the SEC is not held accountable at all, which is atrocious. And they hold others accountable to, you know, they've just gone after, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a ripple guy or XRP guy, but they're just again put their hand out like this and demand a two billion from ripple. What are you doing? What are you doing? Why? What's your obsession with just murdering technology? What? You know, these guys are just, I don't know what the deal is, but they're obviously building tech. They're building tech in the back end for banks. I don't get it. Yet FBX, I mean, SBAG or whatever his name is, San Bankman Freed, FBF. FBF of FGX. FBF, that's great. How we've broken down into initialisms for everything so quickly. For everything. CZ and FBF. But, you know, I just find it so, and as you rightly pointed out guys is that, you know, none of the other team really get anything because they ratted on the guy and everyone, everyone has their full guy, the full guy falls. You know, then you get other people like coffee, zilla, just absolutely championing as long as possible for the guy. Then you get, you know, and it's this full guy thing. I'm like, okay, good, okay, we got someone. Yeah, I hope you're all happy now. I hope you're all happy now, but the fact is that people have lost money. People are still out of money. The SEC is never going to pay the people that lost the money with any fines that they collect. So they're never going to be in pocket. They're always going to be out of pocket. And then, so yeah, this is where I think decentralized finance and holding your own keys is what's important. This is what key is in all of this. Now, I understand that you can't hold your own keys in a centralized exchange if you want to trade. But the technology has moved on and this is why I don't like the idea of hardcore Bitcoin maximalism telling everybody that things like Ethereum are absolutely terrible because, hey, guess what? Ethereum, yeah, it might not be the most decentralized concept in the world, but it's more decentralized than FTX will ever or was ever or is ever going to be. And there are dexas out there. There's these great inventions of liquidity pools where people can still trade while holding their private keys. Sure, the Ethereum network might get compromised at some stage, especially when there's an ETF where they collect these funds and it might not be as decentralized as possible, but as Bitcoin. But if you want to just hold Bitcoin and you really believe in decentralization as decentralized as possible, well, arguably then you just hold Bitcoin. But if you want to trade, don't use these centralized exchanges. If you're championing the fall of this guy who's obviously not a good guy, I'm not standing up for him, but I'm just saying we need to be better as a technology, as an ecosystem and say, let's not even use these tools. Let's not even market these tools that give the ability for people like Sam to screw up. And I mean, this started for me way back in the Mt. Gocs days. I never blamed Mark Cappellis. I blamed the fact that he was incompetent. I blamed the fact that he was human, but there is no way that he could have seen through the vast amount of numbers rushing past and things happening because he just didn't have the tool set for transparency. He didn't have the tool set to know that he was already in fractional reserve. And even if he did, he had the ability to hide it because the public couldn't see that. And again, this is why we created the Glass Books Protocol. This is why Peter Todd and Gregory Maxwell created Proof of Reserve. We have these tools to stop this in the future. And this is what's important to go back to the Cypherpunk ideal of saying, we don't need centralized institutions. We need tools to decentralize and make transparent something, everything for the powerful. So transparency for the powerful privacy for the weak. And that's where we need to go. That's the North Star. We're not putting in prison and hoping for the longest time, you know, and destroying kids that are obviously just nim with nip nip nip wits. Well, and just to compare some other numbers here, Theranos, which we talk about all the time, the famous healthcare fraud, they were, they raised $724 million, but they were worth $10 billion. Elizabeth Holmes got 11 and a half years in prison. And now she's going to spend just nine years in prison. So that's how the prison system seems to go down. And in comparison, FTX is lost from fraud, according to Yahoo search here or Google search of Yahoo is $11 billion. So Theranos, she may have lost $724 million of investors money and $10 billion of potential, which was false potential, but the SBF FTX actually lost $11 billion. And he's just barely going to jail. So it's amazing. And the other thing though is jail time seems so weird. Like, first of all, multiple lifetimes, what does that even mean? Like, can you just give the guy a number? Like, what are you doing with your, oh, that's who's going to prison for four lifetimes? What are we in some sort of strange, like, to what? And then it's like, no, we've given 25 years, but actually it could be about four, I don't remember. I hate her. We just give them, give an amount of time. Like, what's with the flexible, but also totally weird, multiple lifetimes, I don't get either prison system. It's just weird. It's just strange. I don't get it. It's also interesting how wasteful it is from a utilitarian perspective. They take somebody that's good at something and they're like, well, you can never do that thing again. And there's nothing else you can do. You can sell cigarettes in the cantina. You can do nothing else. There's no way we can get any value or any positive aspects of society. They're not like in groups working to get better. They're in groups working to get worse. They're in gangs. The picture that we saw from Tiffany Fong of San Bankman, Friedin prison, he looked like he had joined a gang. Which is what's necessary to survive in prison, which is a problem. I know we don't care about prisoners. They're the bad people that did bad things. But as I think Sultzenitz said, you can tell a lot about a society by how they treat their prisoners. And it's absolutely. Prison is ideally meant to be a rehabilitation system. And of course, you get these, you know, it's a complex philosophical conversation because obviously there's rapists and murderers and stuff like that. I probably shouldn't say those words to demonetize him. But you know, there's bad people and you've got to figure out how can you like release these back into society. Obviously, you don't want to release anyone that's a child predator or a Arab or someone that I guess is too late. I murder people but into society. But at the same time, there's people that are non-violent and they've done bad stuff. You want to teach them a lesson. But what's the point of teaching them a lesson if they can't come out and rejoin a society? Then they haven't learned the lesson or what other lessons like you rightly said, what other lessons? You just joined a gang and figured out how to actually rob physical banks now or something like that. I don't know. Whatever they learn in there. He's learning important prison skills, how to make a shift, how to like trade macrocans for other services. Which is awful. I mean, yeah, of course, all the gangs are race-based indeed. It has no choice but to join one that looks like him likely. But maybe he could be sentenced to making speeches at elementary schools, trying to teach kids not to steal or sentence to writing a book about the bad things that he's done. And then they would release that instead of whatever kind of book he will write or if he does nothing, it's just we don't get any value of society out of this. It's bad for them. It's bad for everyone. It's just a bad system. It doesn't seem to work. And also while I was reading this, they weren't quite talking about rehabilitation or punishment of Sam. They had said something about how they were worried that he could do this again if they let him out sooner. So it's more of a preventative against future crimes rather than a punishment for existing crimes. And I was very unclear on that. What our goal is. If it's preventing future crimes, punishing people for crimes in the past, it's just hard to understand. Those are very different ideas that the judges are pressing. Crazy. Crazy. Let's move on to the exit question. RWU, which is hard to say, RWU, Ross William Ulbrich, has been in jail for about 10 years. He ran a website called the Silk Road. As he says on Twitter, today I turned 40. I pray I'll get a second chance at freedom before this next decade ends. And let's just compare and contrast a little bit. The guy who was born into wealth at Stanford parents, financial, interesting, enlightened people, effective altruism, raising their son to be a huge financial criminal versus Ross Ulbrich out on his own and entrepreneur, starting his own businesses, eventually starting a little drug website and four life sentences versus maybe 10 years. Victoria Jones, what do you think? Just comparing the two, how we treat people as a society. Someone used a new technology to kind of let people trade things, which is an economic necessity where there is demand, there is supply, another person just seems to have gathered a bunch of funds and then wasted them and just squandered this incredible opportunity to run an exchange. Yeah, it completely stinks. You just have to scrape the surface of what's happened here and it smells really bad. There's no equity, there's no humanity, even with SPF. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me at all if this whole court case is to just prove to the people we found our villain, we put him in jail, there you go, all sorted. And then a few years later, everyone's forgotten about it and he's quietly released and no one ever hears from him again. You just don't know, whereas of course with Ross, there are dedicated people in the Bitcoin community who want to champion his right to freedom. And ironically, that actually keeps more attention on his case, whereas a lot of people, I can imagine will probably think Sam Bankman-Freys done and dust is, no one's going to be campaigning to get him out of prison, apart from maybe his parents who look terrible in their photograph, by the way, in the article. But no one else is going to be petitioning Sam Bankman-Freed to leave. They might talk about it, but no one's going to be paying attention to whether he's in prison or not. And yeah, and the contrast, ironically, is probably keeping Ross' where he is. And you know, Sam Bankman-Freed, it'll be like, well, did Jeffrey Epstein really kill himself, that kind of thing? So I don't know. We'll have to see. And previously under the suggested sentence of 110 years or what they were requesting 40 to 50 years, it seemed like Sam had been punished. And we could say, oh, it doesn't matter that they dismissed that political case. In the beginning, they were, they decoupled the political case from the main case. And everyone's like, oh, that's fine. You know, they're going to try that later. But then out of nowhere, they decided, we're just not going to try that political case. And again, remember everyone, he bribed Democrats and Republicans. Like we can both be mad together. He bribed the Republicans under the table. He bribed the Democrats on the table. So yes, it's very different, but he bribed them both. Like guys, we're on the same team here, right and left together. But Josh Chagall, what do you think about SbF versus RWU, which is really impossible to say and not going to catch on? So maybe are you? I don't know. He doesn't have good initials. He needs a stage name, a prison stage name. DPR. Now DPR, those are good initials. Dread pirate Roberts. Yeah, strong, very strong. Yeah, Ross, look, I've been a big champion of Ross for a long time. I think, let's just quickly, just quickly outline the fact that he ran a nonviolent website. It allowed people to trade. In fact, it probably stopped violence because for the first time ever in the history of man, people could go and buy some, you know, whatever it was, some sort of, you know, narcotic or whatever, whatever they're into. And not have to go and meet with the dodgy narcotics dealer down a dark alley and get robbed. They could and not only that, they could leave feedback. And when was the last time you could leave feedback to an narcotics dealer about how the quality of the stuff and publicly, he imagines shouting at the side, this guy's stuff is crap. It's cut full of whatever. And it's dangerous. And the thing is a lot of people that were technical enough to use the Silk Road were actually very, you know, had access to equipment because they're very intelligent to get to be able to use that. So they could take those products that they bought, bring them to university testing labs and test them all and then give proper feedback. The quality of the product got really good. The violence went down and yeah, okay, it was allowing people to do illegal stuff, but you could say it stopped violence a lot of it. Now, in terms of there's always the murders for higher charge that Ross got, but those were never charges. They were just entrapment, you could say. And you could also, there was never went to court. He was never charged. All those charges were dropped because I think that they were all fully trumped up to basically do a character assassination. Now I'm not sure I don't have all the details because those charges were dropped against him and they were never brought to court. So everyone though, every time brings that up and it works. If it was a character assassination, which I believe it was, it because Dreadpilot Roberts had a vast army of people that championed him, who loved him because he used to write these amazing articles as Dreadpilot Roberts, talk about libertarianism and talking about the freedom of people to choose what to do. And so if he didn't have those charges, those people would have been championing outside of courts. They would have been a lot more voices active to get him a better sentence instead. Everybody turned their back on the guy. And this is what people like Chuck Schumer would have wanted that were desperate to get him and make a massive highlighted case out of him. And what has happened? What has happened? The judge gave him four lifetime sentences to basically make an example of the guy. What's happened? Didn't make an example of him? No. The drug market places that are popped up then. And by the way, he banned any selling guns on the site because he wanted a purely non-violent. So you know, and now you get the same because he's banned. It's gone, but did it make an example? No. The drug market places that are available and have been available for years now on tour of vastly bigger sell absolutely everything, have no moral grounding at all and are quite frankly sick places where you just shouldn't go. But fundamentally, the kid built a technology using a new technology and he got four lifetimes whatever that means. And basically means he's never getting out. And I just see the correlation between what he did and what Sam did is, yeah, I mean, it's just weird, but people just keep pulling out this M for higher thing and I just find that sort of atrocious when those charges were never brought to court. Anyway, there you go. And the founders of those other Silk Road-like websites got much smaller sentences when Ross, when they were eventually caught. As again, everyone does seem to eventually get caught. Bitcoin is not good for criminals. It has a blockchain record. It's part of the whole thing from the beginning. We've said that yes, it's bad for dumb police officers, but smart police officers, FBI men, Scotland Yard, whatever. They're going to use this as a tool to catch these people in time and time again. We've seen them do that. Yes, I agree with the panel here. Ross Ulbrecht was like a legitimate entrepreneur. He's much more similar to the guy who invented Craigslist or Yahoo or Google than to SPF or to a criminal, but that's not how they're going to remember him and that's not how they're treating him. SPF is just a crook who just took money from the cookie jar and when there was more cookies, he took more money. There's just no comparison. Even if you throw in the murder for higher, I would say murdering all of these people's financial futures, wiping out $11 billion of actual money, not just value like Theranos, but actual money wiped out. SPF is the greater criminal and he's seeing a far lighter sentence, but that's just how it is. Moving on to issue two, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and the Stanley company who merged, Morgan Stanley are allegedly working on a Bitcoin ETF in the next two weeks. Versus are from inside inside Bitcoin firms and legal insiders. In case you haven't heard, Morgan Stanley holds more than $1.5 trillion in client assets. We also have a new update. Both of these reports from at AP underscore abacus on Twitter, Andrew, Andrew writes now that additional sourcing, expecting Bitcoin ETF approvals at Morgan Stanley in the next seven to 10 days. And insider sourcing, a bunch of compliance and educational stuff went out to all advisors this week to other Bitcoin ETF firms also expect onboarding and timeline and that Morgan Stanley holds more than $1.5 trillion in client assets. Let's go to Josh Shagallar. What do you think about the ETFs? They've already done so well and now it looks like there's going to be more of them. Of course there's going to be more. Larry Fink was proudly boasting that the BlackRock ETF for Bitcoin is not only the best ETF that BlackRock has ever launched, it's the most successful ETF ever in the history of all ETFs in terms of volume and performance. Of course the timing is everything in this because if it launched in a bear market it would be a very different story. But yeah, it's very interesting. I'm very much interested in seeing what happens with these proof of stake tokens with these vast amounts and I've brought it up in the show before about that being a huge attack vector on the proof of stake networks because these companies have such deep pockets and being a ground up technology where you get vast amounts of small holders, proof of stake is great because you get small holders everywhere. You get these monoliths with these gigantic pockets buying up and staking and Coinbase is also said that they would look at... No, actually yeah, I remember recently some ETF filing has talked about an Ethereum... I think it was BlackRock's actually and they actually talked about staking the Ethereum for the rewards because it's proof of stake as well. So they're actively saying they will stake it in their filing applications and staking it isn't just some thing you do and that gives you some sort of income but it actively allows you to govern the token or the network I should say. So yeah, it's very, very dangerous in terms of 51% attacking the network. So interesting times ahead, I've definitely got my popcorn machine as more and more of these ETFs come onto the market. That's for sure. Victoria Jones, you haven't been a fan of the ETF so far but have you come around or you're on board with the positivity of Bitcoin just taking all of Wall Street's money? Well, I mean, it's certainly going to boost the price of Bitcoin. There's no denying that but in terms of ETFs, I mean, it's going to end in tears. It really is. You know, we're looking at a deflationary collapse at some point. If you understand the principles of how these things work, I mean, some time ago I wrote a newsletter called Bitcoin and the South Sea Bubble on my website, Satoshi'sPage.com. And basically I investigated what happened around the early 1700s when people were just starting to discover how stock markets worked. And it's almost, it resonates in this time period because, you know, Bitcoin is a very different asset to stocks and shares. To such an extent, I mean, we've got an article coming up later which demonstrates how all the Wall Street understands it in spite of all of the educational material they're apparently getting. They don't understand it. It's like they believe it's this asset that because it's limited in supply to just go up forever. And therefore it has no utility. It's like, guys, you completely misunderstand what you're involved in here and it's going to destroy you and you deserve it. Because you have not done your homework. So yeah, I mean, as Josh says, I've got my popcorn and I'm watching in the sidelines, but I think Bitcoin has need to be very careful because a deflationary collapse could affect the price of Bitcoin as well. Maybe not long term, but in the short term, it could be so shocking, you know, that could shake a number of people out of their positions. And so I think you need to hold your nerve in that position because then I think it happened. I mean, we could well have a deflationary collapse in society and you know, the banks come along and offer us our CBD season. Wall Street, who haven't done the homework on Bitcoin, will kind of say, okay, this is the next thing and they'll have ETFs on CBD season. It's just like, oh my God, this nightmare is getting worse before it's getting better. And it's almost like there's got to be this process before people actually figure it out and see what's really going on. So yeah, I mean, this story has a long way to play out and I'm just in despair watching the people who own all the money in the world just making catastrophic mistakes. I mean, in the article when I was writing it and looking at these stock market companies from the 1700s, I mean, at one stage, there was one guy going around saying, I've set up this company for an enterprise of great import, but no one's going to know what it is. They literally had that as a title of their company. I mean, it was just so ridiculous. And the collapse of the South Sea bubble was devastating and the Mississippi bubble that collapsed at the same time ultimately led to the French Revolution. And the thing is, you know, when you have these hyper-hyperinflationary or deflationary collapses, what happens is the rest of the population who don't know what's happening end up completely impoverished and then you get a revolution and then you get a tyrant. You know, again, you know, looks through history and it's happened over and over again. The French Revolution gave us Napoleon, the Vimeire hyperinflation gave us Hitler. You know, God knows what's on the horizon next. And so I don't know, this is why we do these shows to try and educate you. You know, it may sound great that the price is going up, but there's a whole big story going on under the surface here that I don't think is really fully understood. And there's a lot of noise about Bitcoin and people end up watching these videos saying it's going to the moon and it's just like, oh my God. You know, those people are almost as bad as everyone else really because they're beating into the same problem. But it's a difficult thing to explain. It's a difficult thing to fully sort out. And also, you know, people have been talking about these problems since 1971 when Nixon took us off the gold standard. And because we've had 50 years and nothing's happened, everyone thinks everything's fine. And it could be another 50 years before anything happens. But the problems just get bigger in the meantime so that when it all falls apart, it's going to be even more devastating. So, you know, even though it's difficult and it's hard to explain it all at once, we keep chipping away, helping to point out some of these aspects that you really need to be looking into so that, you know, we understand how to play the game. And hopefully, if they manage to keep the game going for another 50 years, hopefully that's another 50 years where at least if people are playing the game, they understand it from a first principle's perspective. So they're not caught out at the wrong moment. So, as Josh Jagala has raised his hand, got Josh? Yeah, yeah, I just thought I'd try that. Yeah, no, I absolutely want to agree wholeheartedly with Victoria here and such good points, such important points where, you know, and this is where I don't really particularly like the store of value angle that Bitcoin has become. When I got into Bitcoin, it was that we were creating a new money that was separate from the financial system where you could voluntarily come in and permissionalously trade and bank the unbanked and all of this stuff. The problem with the store of value narrative is that it's something you hold and that's all you do with it. That's the utility because it's number go up technology and that has not kind of fixed where, well, then BlackRock gets in and then all of these things. Maybe that would have happened anyway, I'm not sure, but what you really want is velocity, velocity in Bitcoin, it's moving, it's an economy outside of that scene now, it's more of everyone just hoarding, hoarding this thing rather than moving it. And I haven't seen the Lightning Network really take off like it should. The promise of it has been a letdown. Even though we on this show with Ben Arck have shown some amazing use cases, it's happened quickly. The UX is still not there. People for whatever reason haven't gone towards using Lightning Network. That's really, really unfortunate. Maybe it's got to do with the bad blood that's in the network. I think it's fundamentally something that we need to think about as a community is the utility of using as money. Now some would say, well, the decentralization has happened. It's just happened through altcoins. We don't have a monolithic just Bitcoin and the decentralization is in having all of these different blockchains running. And now the cat's out of the bag, you can't shut all of them down. If you shut one down, it'll just people will move across to something else. But the large players are an existential threat in a way. I just don't know how. And we'll, again, pop on. And as Baxter Churchill said in the chat, maybe we live in interesting times. That's absolutely what's happening. Indeed, the ancient Chinese curse may you live in interesting times. And yeah, I just agree with Victoria. I would say that the retail users, the normal Bitcoiners, they're the ones most likely to be freaked out by large price changes. And then they're the ones most likely to sell. And now we know that the banks are the one buying your Bitcoin. So if you have to sell, you have to pay bills, you have to buy stuff, I understand. But otherwise, I would really try to hold on to those because you really are selling to the banks. And it does have that bad feeling where you're like, you're not going to be able to get that back for the same price. Like you're going to get that back for more later. And it's going to end up bad. And I'm very much like Victoria saying like the South seas bubble where Newton kept buying bad, bad stocks. And as Josh was saying, it's like we've discovered this goose that lays golden eggs. And all the Wall Street people are like, look at these golden eggs. They're made of gold. And all the technology people are like, are you kidding? Look at the goose. The eggs are coming out of the goose. Like, what do you do? Who cares if they're solid gold? Like look where they come from. Like we have to understand this. And I think we're going to talk about that more in that that later article that was so interesting. We'll get there soon. So let's move on. Check out world crypto network at worldcryptonework.com. We've got shorts and videos and more. It's all at worldcryptonework.com. We should have checked out on this day. It's really neat. You can see all the other shows that we and many other people all volunteers have done here on the world crypto network over the past 10 years. Issue number three, history says Bitcoin price will hit $100,000 and beyond in weeks. If the market cycle repeats Bitcoin, could see a six figure price for six figure price surge before the April havin' event. Victoria Jones, what do you think about all the excitement for the price of Bitcoin? Everyone I know says just casually as if it's nothing, it's going to double and it's going to triple and we're just going to be filthy, filthy, filthy rich. What do you think, Victoria? Well, quite frankly, in current circumstances, nothing would surprise me. But having said that, even on a technical perspective, we're hitting the... We're hitting an all-time high and that's unprecedented for that to happen before a halvingain, which is what I've said before. I would say in these sorts of situations, be very careful. I mean, as you just mentioned, so rising newton, what happened was he'd made a bit of money in the South Sea bubble and then he sold and then the price kept going up so high and all of his friends were continuing to make money and so he reinvested right at the top and then that's the point at which the price crashed to the ground. And so, you know, there may well be some people who've already been selling during this rally and then they'll see an article like that and it's like, oh my God, I need to get back in and then that's the point at which it crashes on you. So, you know, you just have to be so careful, especially now that Wall Street is involved because they're dealing with volumes that are just incomprehensible and yes, it can go up high, but it can also go down low unexpectedly. You know, it wouldn't surprise me if we got an all-time low at some point because of Wall Street shenanigans, you just never know. So, you know, be really careful. I remember what Andreas used to say about all-time lows, he used to say, if Bitcoin goes to a dollar, I will buy them all. But Adam Back was mocked and laughed at when he said $100,000 before the halvingain and now the street, the Wall Street round table magazine, whatever they are, is saying it could happen. Josh Shagall, what do you think about $100,000 and the price of Bitcoin? I tell you, I've got to put some articles out saying that Bitcoin will reach, you know, its X number because it seems to get all the clicks. I don't know. It's just something that's weird, especially when the headline is says, in weeks, I think that could be years, like it could be like 400 weeks, you know, like it could be. It's such an open-ended, and they're always correct. They could always be correct because if it happens in 40 weeks time, they can say, look, we were right. It was in weeks. It's just such a week. I'm not not begging. That is true, Josh, you can measure anything in weeks. You know, a year is 52 weeks. Amazing. Amazing. Wow, look, I was right. Of course, of course, Bitcoin is going to cross $100K at some stage because it just is too rare and it's going up more ETFs are coming on board. But because again, right, we could see absolutely massive lows as well. I don't think we'll ever see an all-time low because that can never work because the all-time low was zero when it first started. So it really can't go negative. But the could definitely... We will pay you to take this Bitcoin. We will pay you. Yeah. We will go full ECB negative interest rates style. But yeah, it could definitely hit yearly lows. When panic happens, panic happens on the upswing. I'm panicking. I'm not part of everyone's getting rich around me and I'm not part of it. I'm jumping in. I'm jumping in. I'm just people piling on top of each other on the way out. People can't sell it to the next person fast enough because people just want to sell. There's no buyers. And when BlackRock's dumping and manipulating the market by just dumping a million with a market order, crushing it down, everyone piles on top of that, then they put another million in on market order, crushes it further. When they know their goal is to buy it here all back. And these sorts of manipulations are very, very typical because we've all talked about the bear whales, murdering the bear whales. In fact, there's all memes about it back in the day. But these were all retailers. Now you have very sophisticated versions of this that can manipulate the market. Extraordinary really well. The other thing is that the vast amount of media real estate that BlackRock and the Lyachab, JP Morgan Chase, Stead Morgan Stanley, all also own big shares if not outright large talking heads and media outlets and propaganda pieces. So they could pile on with the fud, put a million dollars market sell on a pile on with the fud, keep doing these games and then turn it around. And the SEC would be very, very difficult to find out. And also the SEC, they might not even be illegal to do that because it's not like a share of a company that you're talking about. It's a commodity. So it rolls on different rules as a company. Like Elon can't go about and say certain things about Tesla on Twitter because if he does, he could be pulled in front of the SEC and find the thing is these companies can say whatever they want or they can get mouthpieces to say whatever they want about a certain commodity crush it or lift it. So there's a lot of play here. So be careful. Again, I'm a big believer in that Bitcoin should be money and that's what we should be using for store value. I like the store value thing too. It is in a way store value but it's a very manipulatable store of value. So is it really a store value? Not sure. Well, and these are all brand new systems Josh. So when they actually crash the market, they'll probably say that an intern fat fingered it and they sold 10 million shares but they only meant to sell one million shares and this happened three times in a row. Whoopsie. We just don't have any warnings. You know, on the stock system, we warned people if you sell more than 10 shares or whatever but it's new Bitcoin thing. You know, John wrote it yesterday and Freddie checked it but oh, we didn't have any protections. So yeah, that'll be an excuse when they crashed. And none of our clients lost money because we bought it all back way below. So we were fine. Yeah, we're fine. Like the bank's great here. It's just the rest of you that got wrecked because our intern pushed the wrong button. We're firing him, by the way, he's out. He's gone. He's out. He's out. He's out. He'll be great. But let's move on to the exit question predicting against the Bitcoin predictor of all the source of all truth and knowledge in this universe. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week? Victoria Jones. Well, I'll keep going with the we still haven't reached maximum breeder. So yeah, why not? It'll be higher. Josh, a gole higher or lower higher higher. All right, let's go to the predictor ball. Here we go. Remember shaking the ball can cause bubbles. It's funny because it's true. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Outlook not so good. Outlook not so good. So the ball is pessimistic. So those of you who do all of your stock choices by balls and all of your buying and selling, there you go. You're set. And we tried to get a flat. We tried to get a flat ball, but they're all round. Josh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the flat earth is going to be P.O. By the way, you know, inspiring formulas there stated that came for the fund state for the pho. You know, when we say some of this stuff, we don't mean to fud. Like, but we just want to be realistic in a time where everyone's just scrambling like crazy. It's important to be realistic and have a little bit of a voice of reason on both sides. You know, obviously we're all bullish. We're permanent. We're literally permeables on this show. It's just that you to be a permable, you need to understand the virtues of what you're doing, but also what could happen. And that's important. It's an important balance. It's that yin yang. And as Kipling said, if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting to, if you can wait and not be tired by waiting or being lied about, don't deal in lies or being hated, don't give way to hating. And yet don't look too good nor talk too wise. If you can dream, now I'm not going to do the whole thing. It's too long. As war you'll be a man, my son. All right, we're moving on too much Kipling. Let's keep going. Issue four, I think, $24 billion Bitcoin ETF could run out of Bitcoin in weeks. Research from reveals the grayscale Bitcoin trust is seeing sustained outflows. And also from the street, we have the same article with a different headline, BlackRock, now on pace to flip the $23 billion Bitcoin competitor in just three weeks. As we've been reported on, people are selling their grayscale Bitcoin ETF because they charge 1.5% management fee and the BlackRock or Ibit ETFs charge 0.25. And that's less. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the ETF action as the new BlackRock ETF threatens to dump the old grayscale ETF that was run by Barry Silverton, other used to own Coinbase or CoinDesk. Many other things, the digital currency group. Yeah, I mean, you know, are any of us surprised that BlackRock is in honour mission to rule the world along with Michael Saler? I mean, it's all, they're all on the same mission aren't they? Really, it's like, I want the most Bitcoin's. It's like, guys, it's meant to be a new form of money. If you own it all, we won't be able to use it. Whereas we actually can, but, you know, I've often said to people, even if there was only one Bitcoin left, that would be enough to run the economy of the whole world. But then you get into scenarios like King Montezuma, some African King who had so much gold, he literally destroyed the economy of Africa as he traveled through the continent, spending all of his gold because, you know, all of the countries were operating on a balanced economy and someone comes in with a load of gold and you can destroy them all. And so, you know, this is another problem with these big players, scooping up all the Bitcoin. And then going back to what Josh was saying earlier about them scooping up all the Bitcoin so that they can then market, crash the market and then buy it all up later. I mean, this is a story as old as time. I mean, I don't know if any of our audience know the story of Nathan Rosschild, but, you know, basically at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, you know, with the Battle of Waterloo, basically what had happened was because whoever lost the war had to pay an indemnity to the people who won. It would affect the currency of Britain. So all the people in the Financial Centre of London were selling, well, they were trading Bank of England shares based on who was going to win this war. And because they knew Nathan Rosschild was always had an edge of the ground with his own communication system, basically what he did was he started selling his shares and so a rumour went round that they'd lost the war because they were watching Nathan Rosschild sell all of his shares. And then he did that because he knew that they had actually won the war. And so basically he started this rumour, got everyone to sell their shares. Once it had reached a floor that was agreeable to him, he started buying them up quietly while the panic was going on. And then when everyone discovered that actually Britain had won the Battle of Waterloo, the shares skyrocketed because it meant that Britain wouldn't have to pay the indemnity. And that's how the Rosschild ended up with all their money. And so, you know, people who understand financial history, they're really familiar with these stories and they will, they will jump at any opportunity to play that play, play game again. And the only defence we have is knowing that we know that they know. So that, you know, you need to understand the principles of what Bitcoin does and how it supports a new financial system. Bitcoin actually makes Wall Street really vulnerable. But they are using their hubris to try and think that they can control the game when in reality they can't. Ultimately, Bitcoin will destroy them. But you have to make sure that they don't take all your Bitcoin off you before we get to that stage. And that's going to be really tricky. It is quite a thing that Nathan Rosschild pulled out, pulled off. And really the power of superior information, he had a report from the field before anyone else, he knew his report was correct. And he could have just, like you say, Victoria, he could have just bought the shares. But as he knew, his position as a market leader, everyone would have followed. So he does the opposite. He sells the shares. He freaks out the market, then he buys them back in. Also, he's the first to sell. So he gets the best prices on the sell as well. So just a beautiful maneuver and rarely taught in history, rarely discussed yet, obviously instructive, informative, fascinating. Wonder why it's not taught, gee, I wonder. We better get back to BlackRock and the ETF. Josh Shagall, what do you think? Gray scales on their way out. They've been selling millions of dollars a day. It's been pulling down the price of Bitcoin as people exit this honoris 1.5% management fee and go to the sweet deal of the 0.25. I mean, it just makes sense. And this is this, this, this rush to the bottom that generally happens. We see this in Australian supermarket chains where they will just undercut all of the little mum and pop fruiters and gross, gross retailers because they've got the buying power and not really care about making a profit. And then once, once all of those are guys are gone, once you don't have any other fruiters in your local region, people won't want to buy everything at the big supermarket. And then, except for the fruit and then travel another few kilometers to go get their fruit from someone local who's selling more expensive. So they will do all of their purchases in the supermarket. And this is obviously, again, an age old thing. It's not a new concept. So yeah, we'll see what happens. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. Very, very interesting times. I just want to add to what Victoria said, a good quote from Nathan Rothschild during that time, I cannot what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the empire on which the sun never sets. The man who controls the British money supply controls the British empire and I control the British money supply. And that was after the Battle of Waterloo was basically controlled and the fact that he had information pipelines that got back to him a whole two days before the crown did meant that he had absolute control over the information and starting those rumors and stuff. So it's an amazing story. Thanks a lot for reminding the audience about that. Very good, very good. And let's move on to issue five. The one everyone's been waiting for. No one's touting Bitcoin's use case anymore. Bulls say that plan is to hold it forever. Yes, they figured out Bitcoin. They say now based upon talk that few commentators speak of Bitcoin's utility and the biggest bulls, whatever that means, plan to never sell not long ago much of the rhetoric focused on decentralized finance and Bitcoin as payment in 2024. The dominant theme like the media is simple by Bitcoin because the price is going up. Have we really gotten this dumb this fast? Victoria Jones, what do you think about the idea that because people who have lots of money who are enthusiastic about a market who are maybe even financial insiders are only focusing on the financial part of something. Does that mean that it loses all of its other technical attributes and we don't even need to look into it even though like you're saying if we had a point one or a point zero zero five free, we could create a whole economy on it. We could do so sets and micro sets and min micro mini sets and smaller things. There's amazing things we can do with this technology including the Lightning Network that no one talks about whenever they do one of these negative articles. The first thing they always do is leave out the Lightning Network. It's just like building seven. You just don't want to talk about it. Victoria, what do you think it's 2024 and we only care about the price because the media says so. Yeah, honestly, I read the article and I was like, I don't believe it. I mean, the thing is here in Nottingham, we're about to put together an event for 500 people that's very much based on actually using it and the people I know locally are very devoted to encouraging and educating businesses to use the Lightning Network. There are still obstacles because this technology is early. You know, the principles are all there but the usability, I think all of us agree still needs still needs some work. But in preparation for this event, I've been doing a series of interviews with some of the speakers and the organizers and the entertainers and the workshop organizers just to kind of get their perspective and see what's motivated them to be part of this event and what they can bring to it. And of course, as part of that, we've been highlighting some issues with Bitcoin and invariably all of them are interested in actually getting it used in the economy because, you know, the ones who are devoted to doing that understand the ability it has to completely upturn exactly how our world works and the problem is, you know, the existing financial system still has a lot of domination over the media and so what that means is the articles we see are purely influenced by what they want us to believe. But fortunately, because we've got so many ground roots educators now who are acquiring the confidence to kind of speak up about the things that they believe, people who wouldn't necessarily, you know, you would have seen before but they've been around long enough that they're starting to build the confidence to actually, you know, say how they feel, you know, I'm amazed actually in Nottingham the way in which this this organization has come together. I mean, we just moved our local meetup meeting to the local football club and because we were there and the people in the football club didn't have any idea of, you know, what this Bitcoin thing was, we came up with the idea to hold an event. And so, you know, they organized it and other people in the meetup where they felt that they could contribute, they stepped up to contribute. I mean, I've never done live streams before but I was like, you know, they asked me to do a talk and normally my daughter will video it and so I was like, what can I video it and they said, no, we've got someone else doing that but you can do the live streams, I had to learn how to how to live stream. And so it's been great, you know, I've been developing a new skill and people are so inspired by the other things that the other things that people are contributing that it's just growing into this massive thing and even these interviews that I'm doing beforehand, you know, you don't see many conferences where people have done that and so people are saying to me, this is amazing. I don't know what everyone is doing this and, you know, so that's an example of a real ground, round routes effort to try and make use of Bitcoin as a utility. And so quite frankly, this article is utter nonsense but if this is what Wall Street believes then they're really heading for a reckoning and to my mind that cannot come soon enough because, you know, what they've done to destroy the world we live in right now is just unbelievable when you start digging into it and the sooner we can get Bitcoin working and on track and delivering what it's meant to be delivered, delivered, you know, it can't come soon enough but we all understand that it can't happen overnight and so we just keep plugging away but I can tell you from what I see and the people I meet and the people I speak to, it will happen. You know, people are very much understanding this and they're a good ethical people in the world who once they understand it wants to do something to change it and you can't stop that. It is interesting, Victoria, after all the conferences that we've done with a World Crypto Network and showing up and interviewing the people in live streaming and even my simple idea where I always tell them I'm like, you take the speaker from the stage to our little live screen, we talk to them for five, ten minutes, we're nice guys and then they go to the green room or whatever and then they go and whatever and you get this value out of the speakers where you get a cool video, you get their speech, you get the before, the after, you get this value and no one's ever asked us to come back. No one's ever been like, hey, we want those World Crypto Network guys or hey, we missed you last year. No, I mean, there's been Joe, it, Brom's always good to us, Nindi helped us out in the Transylvania conference but the rest of them, yeah, they take it for granted, the videos exist, they don't promote them, they're not interested, they move along but yeah, there's a lot of value that can be added by just interviewing the speakers at your conference, making your your conference into a really good YouTube channel. I like the way the Mayorka blockchain days has done very well with that, they do good, they interview all their people in addition to the speeches, it just makes sense and we've seen some stuff like the op tech newsletter podcast, we used to do one of those and Max used to do one of those and they've picked up that idea and it looks like they're doing very well with it which I support, they wrote a great newsletter all the time and yeah, shout out to Max Hillabrand, works it with Saby Wallet now I think, used to do all kinds of work at conferences, all kinds of videos and extra videos doing tons of work on its own and it doesn't pay off directly, like you don't get money for those videos but you get a cool job, you get to be CEO, other opportunities come along, so it is always worth volunteering your time and doing good work, it does work out in the end. Josh Shagall, what do you think about the article? It says that the new commentators who again, we've seen this before, people are unsure about the price, so they need price gurus, like the eight ball to help them make their decisions and they love watching these price gurus but there's not a lot of content, they may be saying it's up, it's down, I predict that it will go up but it may also go down, I predict that it will go down but it may also go up and it's shocking to me that these people who probably don't know how to install windows are not interested in the technical aspects of Bitcoin, my goodness, the financial people, not to mock tone directly but he's not into tech, he's into finance, it's a different discipline, I've said before we talked to Gabriel, divine, other people all through the days, you have to be a five tool player to understand Bitcoin, you got to have speed and power and political skills and people skills and technical skills and finance skills, of course, all these different things but the media has figured it out, Josh, we're just into the price, we're just going to hold it forever, no one's ever going to use it again. Yeah, it's a problem and this is why I do resonate a little bit with what Roger Verde was on and on and on about is that it's important that Bitcoin keeps its utility, so I feel that during the scaling debate, this is where this idea solidified Bitcoin only as a store of value but it's also not true that that was all that was wanted from the small block team, the small block team just had an idea of okay, we're going to keep this as a store of value, so this core section is a store of value and then you'll be able to do because it's a great store of value, you can do things on a layer two with that store of value and this is where the function of of money comes in and currency, I should say, so yeah, if we bring it back to old school moment culture, the base layer is the money, the layer two is the currency and so having a medium of exchange being happening on layer two's that unfortunately hasn't played out like it should have, you know, it's been six years or so since the Lightning Network or five years or whatever it's been and we're still not seeing mass take up on that on that front and some would arguably say that it a lot of the and I can see it in terms of working knee deep in all of this for years and years that people are using stable coins and unfortunately they're all using centralized stable coins for for transferring and and me you know using it for for transactions and they're using Bitcoin as a store of value and a number go up technology I don't even like the term store of value because it swings so much a store of value shouldn't go up like crazy and a store of value shouldn't go down like crazy you know it it should store value and yeah so I really I do mourn the fact that we haven't seen it now saying that I did listen recently to Vlad Koster's interview with Roger Verne which I think is a really great interview because we we look at at some of the ideas happening in Bitcoin because Vlad makes the case that the old guard has kind of retired now the old guard that protected the small blocks they're kind of retiring and now a new more vibrant ecosystems building up of builders who want to build layer a bit different ideas on top of Bitcoin BTC so for instance different layer 2s we all put our focus on the lightning network you know it maybe it'll work I hope it does eventually it actually works it's the wrong way of putting it it actually works already it's just there's a lot of you know there's still some UX issues and and and such but we want as many layer 2s as possible because that's how you find out how you scale you want swarms of teams all doing a whole bunch of stuff and we see what the market comes up with so already new ways of scaling are coming up for Bitcoin which might bring us back to that currency idea but the if you know we don't want to ignore the fact that there's the rest of the crypto market which are also competing in this game to try to win that idea of currency so Bitcoin has definitely got new blood in it that's working to build there's new layer 2s being tried out on Bitcoin there's a whole bunch of stuff happening so yeah it's very very interesting to see how Bitcoin scales and that we shouldn't forget that the idea is to have peer to peer currency and the store of value is an well an important part of this is only a part of this and we need multiple parts and that also means we need a medium of exchange as part of that part it is interesting Josh I'm not sure whether it's intellectual simplicity or prejudice or lack of technology but lightning never gets mentioned in these articles they always pretend as if there's not a lightning network or it's not connected to Bitcoin maybe it needs a name like Bitcoin lightning needs to be included every time I've seen other people advocate for lightning Bitcoin we could have a whole war about that I'm sure but again it's similar I want to go out on a limb here and protect the next article will be Bitcoiners who hate Bitcoin and they're going to bring up all the critics of Bitcoin and all the people who don't like it or the people that have left to BSV or whatever and all the Bitcoiners will turn their back on Bitcoin and it'll be similar to Jesus Bitcoin must walk through the desert alone and then we can all come back to Bitcoin on the other side and there's only one set of footprints because he carried me but yes it's all been predicted we've all seen it before we've even talked about how they would do these type of articles and that they would you know Wall Street would own Bitcoin and we'll all say yeah we used to like it when it was small and indie but now it's kind of Wall Streety and then it comes out on the other side and it's Bitcoin again it was always Bitcoin it's never changed it never it never cared about big blockers or small blockers or Wall Street guys or mad bitcoins or anything Bitcoin cares about nothing and that's part of its strength but we're running out of time so let's go to Victoria Jones for a prediction or a story of the week go ahead Victoria um yeah so I mean I've already mentioned my story of the week it's the Bitcoin first which is going to be on on next Saturday actually on my website satosyspage.com on my latest newsletter there's a link to the playlist for all the interviews I've been doing recently which is a new innovation for me but they've been quite interesting the one I did earlier today was from the guy from ZBD who put together a scoreboard for the footballers so that people will be able to reward them with stats and whoever gets the most stats will go up to the leaderboard so if you're interested in that go and watch that interview um so yeah I think this uh this uh event is going to be super fun and if you can't get there in person for you Americans the English have no excuse but for all the Americans if you really want to see it it's going to be live streamed by my 16 year old daughter so hopefully we get a good result. Very exciting this weekend in Nottingham the Bitcoin Fest. Josh Sugala prediction or a story of the week go ahead. Yeah I wish I could make it so I'm definitely going to tune into the live stream Victoria that would be great and um and thanks a lot for all the effort you guys are putting in I look forward to it. Do you want to give us the address again the web address? So the website of the Bitcoin Fest is the Bitcoin Fest.com and then my website is Satoshi's page.com the latest newsletter has a link to all my videos so they are meant to be putting my videos on the on the homepage but um the poor guys organizing it are so swampy stuff to do yet they're like we're gonna do it we're gonna do it but they haven't yet so in the meantime on my website has a link to it and uh if you struggle to actually get to my youtube channel Satoshi's page.com forward slash live will lead you to the live stream on the soon so it's redirecting you Sam. Excellent yeah um my story of the week is uh we are just beavering away at the standard we we um I have just implemented another collateral type so you can put Bitcoin you can put uh now GMX token uh in as collateral so we're starting to add a bunch of different uh collateral types um and uh yeah we've got some really big news coming up after Easter as well so make sure you follow us at j shigala or at the standard underscore i-o on on x and um and you'll be late on the latest alpha information as they as the kids say uh in this space and uh and don't forget that this show is sponsored by that subscribe button and it's free to it's free to push just for a limited time and now the poetry reading that no one wanted that you're getting anyway if you can make a heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch and toss and lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about the loss if you can force your heart and nerve and sin you to serve your turn long after they are gone and so on and so hold on when there is nothing in you except the will which says to them hold on if you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings nor lose the common touch if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you if all men count with you but none too much if you can fill the unforgiving with 60 seconds worth of distance run yours is the earth and everything that's in it and which is more you'll be a man or a woman or whatever you like by son if by Rudra Kipling author of the jungle book many other fine books uh Gunga din uh other stuff like that but there's great poem it's a little too long especially these days uh but i hope you guys enjoyed it and give us a thumbs up down below thanks to everybody for joining us in the chat in the comments and everything and uh until next time bye bye it changed all the buttons