The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Wales from BTC Socialist. Christian Routsel from Raspberry Blitz and Doge Ray. Welcome everybody. Crypto Raptor from England. What's up? Josh Kigala from Voltoro. Hi. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one, Trump Talks Bitcoin. Donald J. Trump wrote on Twitter on July 11th. I am not a fan of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, which are not money and whose value is highly volatile and based on thin air. Unregulated crypto assets can un-facilitate unlawful behavior, including drug trade and other illegal activity. Meanwhile, in the same US government, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell said, we haven't seen widespread adoption of cryptocurrencies. Really almost no one uses Bitcoin for payments. It's a store of value, like gold. Who's right? Trump or Fed Chair Powell? Ben Wales. I really like the, so if you look at the actual language, it's Trump used. So it can be used for illegal activity. And he's not a fan. So he's not expressively saying, you know, it is used for illegal activity and Bitcoin is evil. So the language has changed from a few years ago. So even though it seems quite negative, what he said, actually he's not a direct attack on Bitcoin. And I think obviously a lot of it's been, this discussion has kind of been brought forward by the Libra coin thing. Because now all these projects and Bitcoin are no longer a little sideline tech projects which we don't need to worry about. Suddenly there's this big sort of very powerful organization behind it. So, yes, so the way in which he said, what he said I think is very important. And something which a lot of people have kind of overlooked. I mean all his stuff, all his tweets, they might want people to think they are going to be doctored and they're like, he is going to have right, he's going to have income up with content, maybe even throwing a few spelling mistakes to make it sound authentic. But again, it's like it's what Bitcoin is supposed to do. It's supposed to put the wind up these people and make them worried. So it's just bullish for Bitcoin. It means Bitcoin's working. But I really like the fact that he's not out and out just saying Bitcoin is evil. This is for drugs. Ben's right. Facebook coin is being launched in a very different way than the original Bitcoin white paper with Satoshi and what seems like a handful of volunteers. How funny and the like. Christian roots. Yeah, because he talks about cryptocurrency in general and doge volatility. One doge is always going to doge. So I don't know what he's not getting there. But yeah, in the end, you can see like he making a stand against it a bit shows you a bit that he would not be able to operate politics without within a Bitcoin environment. So he seems to need to bash this a bit. So to force his money more into the central. So yeah, it seems like it's wrong comment to me. Crypto Raptor. Well, yeah, I mean, I think I kind of expected him to say that because ultimately, you know, Trump's very much obviously he's very, very pro pro America. And it's the last thing I'd expect for him to be pro Bitcoin because Bitcoin does kind of take a bit of shine off of the US dollar. Not just from the fact that people are always, you know, pooping fear, but the fact that the dollar is kind of the world index at the moment. And Bitcoin, you know, the end goal of a lot of Bitcoin's perspectives is to take the power away from the dollar. And I think it will do if it becomes like mega used. But a few points in there, one of what was really funny, how Peter Schiff just went, oh, you didn't say it just saw a value like gold and got all panicked and freaked out. And was like, oh, you know, he wasn't saying it's like gold. He was just saying it's like gold, which is quite funny. But also the fact that it was only yesterday that quoting Dan Heddle, that the bank finds since 2008 crisis is $230,000 for $243 billion. And then the entire crypto market cap, the entire crypto market cap, $327. So we can already see that just from these basic figures that the banks are doing a lot of crap that seems pretty much illegal. And you could argue that are they really regulated if there's that much money that's being, you know, fine, how much is the actual global impact of their dodgy dealings? What's the true impact of all the nefarious activities that go on with banking, you know, from HSBC back in a few years ago, the cartels and their money laundering techniques. It's ubiquitous in banking. There's almost no bank that hasn't been caught up in a scandal. And they continue to do so. And if anything, people are trying to reduce regulation. Or at least there's a slight bit of a movement certainly from Trump side. So yeah, I find that all quite interesting that the banking industry, once again, it's like, oh, the banking industry, you know, sort of Bitcoin is bad. It's all money's nefarious, blah, blah. And yet if you just look at the existing system and ask the single question, if you were to rebuild the financial system right now from the ground up, everything fell to shit, you would not choose the financial system that we currently have. What's a fan said was quite a contrast compared to what Trump said, just good. Uh-huh, you're muted. All right, there I am. Yeah, so, you know, this is an old argument. It's a classic old argument. And when you see things like JP Morgan who only deal FCR having an entire ship that's with over $1 billion worth of cocaine, getting busted, I can hardly say that crypto is what's creating the market for illegal substances. I mean, it's ludicrous. Pretty much, and I tweeted about this, pretty much this argument is saying, look, Mr. Trump, there is, when you have a look at the supply chain of the drug industry, you're pretty much from the sewing to the reaping, to the trafficking, to the movement, to the, to the, to the, to the bribes, to the rolling up and sorting that stuff up your nose is fiat all the way. And to say that crypto somehow allows this to happen is just ludicrous and, and say it. And let's say that fiat or USD allows all this should be banning USD because it allows criminals to use it. No, money should be money. It should get back to good old fashion police work. If there is a crime, then good old fashion police work should solve the crime and do whatever they need to to abide by laws, not control a money, which is obviously good money because even criminals want to use it because it's going to be a failure. Moving on to the exit question, will Trump stick with his opinion on Bitcoin, or will he change his mind like so many other things? BTC Socialists? No, it will, of course, he will change his mind. It's just a sort of, you know, flashing the pan command is, I think he probably doesn't believe in self anyway. So I think, you know, Trump's probably a bit of a gold bug himself. So I'm sure he can see some value in Bitcoin, but like Christian said, in order to have his policies, he needs the ability to pay off his money and then fluff up his economy. So, yeah. And then also as a nationalist, he wants USD as this, you know, the strongest currency in the world. So, which which Bitcoin is actively trying to oppose. But no, as a human being, I'm sure you're definitely changing his opinion on Bitcoin. Christian Ruto? Yeah, if you followed Trump a bit over the last weeks months, you were seeing he pushes a lot the fat to lower interest rates. So to make the economy improving again on cheap money. So, yeah, I think his policies all depend on cheap money. And like, was given the tax breaks, was given the big military budget, big spending, he's a big spending guy. So he needs the cheap money. Maybe he will be a little bit go off the Bitcoin illegal thing, whatever. So see it a little bit value in there. But I think he will defend the US dollar way, way, way along. Crypto Raptor. Well, I think if he was to apply, you know, Trump, I think I believe from what I understand is program. And if you were to apply the apply the same rules of Bitcoin with, you know, programming, Bitcoin's pro freedom, it's pro individual power and individual rights. And, and, you know, the government is, it was all about the individual power and individual rights. So they kind of share almost the same elements of freedom. So it's with, in a way to see him kind of go against it because it's the same principles, the arguments that people would use to say having a gun. EG, it's not the Bitcoin, it's the nefarious person, it's the evil person, it's not the gun, it's the, you know, the person who uses it. And likewise, like Josh is saying, like, you know, they could, well, for a start, they should, not just the US, but they stopped all the crap with this ridiculous chasing after if someone's smoking a bit of green. And, and then instead spent on like the money on proper crime, and, you know, probably starting off in the banks, giving them a good, bloody audit. And then, yeah, I don't know, but I think he'll probably stay the same, to be honest, I think, takes too much power away from the dollar. And I don't think he likes that. Josh Kegola. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's funny because Bitcoin was like, you know, boiling, boiling the, the, the, the toad slowly and water slowly heating up, they're not really noticed. It's there. It was kind of hidden in plain sight. But Facebook coin really, you know, really beloted it out through a megaphone. We got 2.8 billion people. We're about to have private money. And I think everyone, whoa, over in the US government, and you saw them blatantly say, hey, this will disrupt our control over the world financial system. So, you know, this is when they're going to take a closer look at more cryptos. I don't think they can ban it. They can only just say, no, we don't like it. And I mean, they, I think America's too much steep in the story of freedom. I think a lot of people would get very upset. Of course, they can pull out the drug and child on and all these sort of cards to say that it's being used for that. They could pull that out and make it illegal. But I think it's going to, they're going to find it very hard, especially with large players getting, getting more and more power like coin base, like circle, some of these large players. So I think it's going to be very, very difficult to just blatantly put a, put a ban on Bitcoin. Josh is right. It's the story of freedom, but actual freedom is dangerous. Trump will change his mind. He always changes his mind. The worst part about this whole Trump event has been seeing all these people on Twitter writing back to him, still saying, dear Mr. President and all these kind of things, while they then went on to disagree with him. As well as everyone else who lets remember back all these years, Trump's a business man. Trump's an entrepreneur. He's going to support Bitcoin. He's a conservative. He's a Republican. He's hands off. He's anti-regulation. He'll be on your side. That Hillary doesn't like Bitcoin. And where are we now? Trump's first public statement. He hates Bitcoin. It's criminal dirty money. You're a bunch of drug law eners. Mr. Law and Order is back again. It's Nixon times two. We're back again. It's 1972. But we're moving on to our next issue. Issue two. Bitcoin price. The golden cross. According to Coinbase and Omkara Godfell, Bitcoin price charts point to an impending, golden cross. Meanwhile, the Bitcoin price dropped $2,000 in 24 hours. But the bold view is still intact. Many media commentators are negotiating and saying that this price drop is because of Facebook's cryptocurrency. Or the price drop is because Facebook's currency is being regulated and won't be released on schedule. Or maybe it's because Trump attacked Bitcoin. Christian roots. Why is the price of Bitcoin down and when will it go back up? Wow. The problem is with the prime thing. I'm always so bad. Even the small drops, small gains now for a day or something. I find it very hard to comment on. Long scale, I think we all believe that there's a lot of value in Bitcoin. We see a lot of price movement there. But those little drops and downs. I'm not the person to comment on that. Maybe Ben, I... Yeah, I mean, similarly, Christian, it's been dropping. It's been going up, it's been going up, it's been going up. But generally, it's going up, which we all know it's going to do. We've had our bottom like that's happened. If it repeats what it's done the past six times and it goes up 60 times, whatever, then we're looking at $1 million Bitcoin. There's feeling because you see a lot of social or price commentators saying, maybe in 2020, $2,500, $100K. But at the end of the year, $100K or $2,500 million, it's some sky's the limit. And these movements, they can be triggered by well action or just people, even if they don't believe the lead recording would have a negative effect on the price or if the trunk comment would have a negative effect on the price, they'll rush to the market, sell some coins and then try and buy them up on this little drop. So, yeah, it's... If it was significant, then it would have impacted the price a lot more and would have dropped a lot more. But Bitcoin being volatile just speaks volumes on its how little liquidity there is in Bitcoin still. So, yeah, it's not worth worrying about stressing out about, don't try and trade the stuff on a short term because you're just going to get wrecked. It's by hold. Yeah. Crypto Raptor. I'll throw on the question again because there's a big commotion in the room. The price of Bitcoin, why is it down and when will it go back up? Why is it down? Why is it down? Because the power is the power is the them. It's they, it's they, they are holding it down. We'll forget about they, here's until, until, you know, but, you know, I think it's very easy sometimes, I think, to attribute a piece of news with a price movement. And there's a price mover right there, and we don't have to get the phone. And I'll go to Josh from Voltoro. Josh, why is the price down? When will it go back up? Josh is muted and frozen and Ben's got static microphone. So, we're keeping it going. Go ahead, Josh. All right. Am I? Yeah, I mean, the price is going down because the price went up and the price went up because it's Bitcoin and it went up too quickly and then it's going down a big quicker and then it's going to go back up and it's going to go back down. I mean, I want, what a boring story. I know the price goes up and down, guys. Get over it. That's what it does. That's why we run a Bitcoin and physical gold exchange. People are going to hedge it to some physical and I jump like, yeah, I don't know. It's just what it is. Bitcoin does what it does. It's, it's never correlated to a piece of news like, oh, it's, it's books issue. No, Bitcoin doesn't care. It's the fainting goat of money as well as the honey betcha. The thing tips over and then extends back up. It's just, it's ridiculous to try to correlate that with some news. Yeah, it's just is what it is and yeah, I think we're in a bull market now in a general bull market. Josh is right. They do this every time they say this story is why the price of Bitcoin's down or this story caused Bitcoin to go down for six months in a row. But it's always just made up. They never have an exact link to the story. Moving on to the exit question. The always popular. The price of Bitcoin this time next week, higher or lower, Ben from Wales. Oh, he's frozen in black screen. Let's go to crypto raptor. I think that means that Ben's prediction means it'll be precisely the same as it is right now. I'm going to go, I'm going to go balls on the table. What should I say, balls on the table? And I'm going to go up. The price being the same is always the easiest and most pathetic. The push Dan picks up. Josh from Voltur on the price this time next week. This time next week it's going to be 0.0035 grams for us. Perfect point. Grounds of grams of Bitcoin. Grounds of gold. I am measuring my 10.000. Two big gold and two big grams. Two big gold options here. Ben from Wales, the price this time next week, higher or lower? It's going to be higher. It's going to be above £10,000. So I love compounds and we seem to be putting against 10,000 dropping. So it'll be about £10,000, maybe £15,000. That's not a vessel price. But it's going to go up. I'm Christian Rootsle, higher or lower? Yeah, I think maybe a week. Yeah, we'll give a bit of an upper thing. I think there's some room to grow, but not too much. I think not too crazy. The answer is higher, always higher. As long as you stay on tour. That's it. As long as the mad tour continues, the price keeps going up. Moving on to issue three, Facebook coin, which is now called Libra. Mark Cuban calls Facebook's digital coin Libra a big mistake saying it could be dangerous. Libra isn't a cryptocurrency. It's a glimpse of a new asset class coin desk continuing to push that new asset class term, just like Brian Armstrong from Coinbase who tweeted about Trump tweeting about cryptocurrency, which are clearly tweeted about Bitcoin. And of course, the real risk of Facebook's Libra coin is crooked developers. They'll steal your money, not just your data. And the results to Facebook Libra coin seem to be mixed so far. Let's go to the panel. What do you guys think about Facebook's Libra coin now that we've had a couple of weeks to really digest it and think about it? Crypto Raptor, go ahead. I don't know. I'm probably going to get hated for this, but like I've never really been that much against Facebook. Anything that was free, I realized that my data is going to be part of it. It's a good service. I tried to quit. In fact, I watched it, Grage quit or whatever the other day when I was like, oh, I'm going to shut my Facebook account up. Then like two days later, my kid was born. I'm like, oh, damn, I need to say thanks to everyone and whatever. Because now I'm being told off by my mum because I'm not on Facebook. So she like, Mark's been phoning around and being like, I can get him back on Facebook. So yeah, I know. I think that ultimately whatever's going to really disrupt the existing financial system and how kind of, yeah, how dodgy it is, then I'm behind. But I don't obviously think that Facebook's the best for me. It's obviously Bitcoin. But if Facebook cheeses people off the bankers, then yeah. Jasky Gala. I love it. I think it's great. I think the more competition is in currency, the better. I don't think I'll use it. I don't like it. I don't like Facebook. I'm not going to use it. But I love that they're that now we're having competing currencies. Competition keeps the bastards honest of us say down under and not being stuck on one thing and allowing competition in this face. I mean, they just cannot print the heck out of money anymore without you going, oh, look, there's an exit. Facebook is really easy. Plus, when your money or your savings is stored in Facebook coin or in Libra, it'll be boring. It'll be flat. It'll be just sitting there and saying, wow, this is pretty quick. We're not 10% last week. I just stick a little bit of money in that and then do some sort of crazy atomic swap or something. If it is a real blockchain, who knows how data is, but it'll definitely be a little bit more interchangeable with Bitcoin and Fiat is than based banking Fiat. It'll be really interesting to see what happens. Yeah, I think it's great. Ben from Wales. Yeah, so I mean, similar to Tanami, I wanted to be a critic of Libra coin like everyone is on Twitter and just say I was a book coin, whatever. But they're pouring a lot of resources into this and there's a lot of good minds behind some of the theory on Libra coin. Permission blockchains, there's some value in that or else blockchain won't be working on the liquid sidechain, which is a permission federated blockchain. Which is what Libra coin hopes to be when it launches, Facebook should only be 100 nodes. That's what they're aiming for, with a $10 million dollar buying for each node. If the nodes are decentralized enough and they're spreading off around countries, because in order to give it less volatility, it's going to be backed by a basket of different currencies, which people buy Libra coin, that Fiat then goes into an offer profit in Geneva. It will be very, very stable. And then just for transactions, it could make a lot of sense. And it's going to have less of an energy impact because it's a permission blockchain. And also the building, this programming language on top of it move and they hope to implement things like lightning, which would then also give you some privacy as well. So I'm not quite sure how they'll do that. I don't know if that's just sales below. But if it goes to what they're proposing, which usually I wouldn't trust it like some shit coin, I see it, whatever. But the very fact that they have quite a lot of time working on it means that maybe maybe you can, it doesn't really matter because Bitcoin isn't, we're using it don't we? We're like, yeah, this has value, let's pass it between each other. Bitcoin is far much more than that. It's a digital, it's digital gold. It's the most digitally scarce thing on the planet. You can do all sorts of funky things, a transaction, spending a transaction, just sending me sending value from one person to another. I mean, as we've seen with lightning network, you can use that one transaction, two millions of transactions if you lock it up in the channel. So, so yeah, I mean, Bitcoin is not going anywhere, it's still digital gold. It's most digitally scarce, that's not on the planet. Blockchain building that, their liquid network on it, because they know that it's decentralized and Facebook have that massive Achilles heel, which is that basket of fear assets in in Geneva and in Switzerland, which Switzerland's government could take, for example. So, so it has value, it has value for it, you know, someone in the Sub-Saharan Africa who has a mobile phone and wants some value to somebody else, it's a very easy way for them to do that. We shouldn't feel too salty because it does give them about a transactional, medium of, you know, being able to transact better. So, it does give them some value and Bitcoin has been the thing which has caused that to happen. So, I hope that it works because I know people are going to get people are going to pull liquidity into it and when it doesn't work, it would be because that big basket of assets gets hacked. Or something around us like that. So, it already affect people negative. Where do you hope it works? Because it will give people a bit of money, Bitcoin's far more than just value transfers, you know, it's a commodity like gold. We just get to finance commodity uses for in which we will take from the future. Christian Roots of Guy. Yeah, when it comes to Libra, I'm always kind of reminded of this Mr. Robot Bitware. This e-corp person is sitting there with the government and telling you, oh Bitcoin is eating your lunch and making it, it threatens you. So, maybe get on board from something that you can better leave better control a little bit better than Bitcoin. And so, so, and you can see this that they already a lot of governments now wants to get in talk with Facebook to see how they can regulate, how they can deal together maybe and how far they will let this Libra thing like into their ecosystem. So, yeah, on this kind of thing, yeah, it's a bit the e-coin thing but at least from my perspective, and this is with every cryptocurrencies that are out there, if they really manage to teach people about protecting your private key and things like giving you the basic education about cryptocurrency, I can see some value in there. But I think Facebook is already doing them because totally walled and all this things. So, we really have to be skeptical how much cryptocurrency education will be done through that. So, but it could be a nice entry point into the Bitcoin kind of world, into rest of the cryptocurrency world, the rest we really have to see where where it goes. I think it's a great advertisement for Bitcoin and Bitcoin's Trojan horse has just gotten bigger and better. We're going to roll out the Libra coin. Like Ben said, it's going to hold its value. Bitcoin is going to go up in value. Why are you holding Libra coin when you could be holding Bitcoin? That's what people are going to ask and maybe if it gets offered on some of these exchanges, you'll have an easy way to trade your Libra coin for Bitcoin or anything else. So, I think it's pretty exciting. Also, remember that it's backed like Ben said by a basket full of fiat shit coins. So, it's backed by shit. So, if the whole economy goes down, the Libra coin goes down with it. So, yes, it's very stable right now for payments. It's great. But when the whole economy collapses, so much for Libra coin, so much for Facebook coin as well. But we're going to go ahead and start. I mean, that's the last part of the argument for it in that it will have. So, if the dollar crashes, then you've still got to see yen in there. So, it kind of keep more stability. So, when the dollar crashes, the yen crashes, when the yen crashes, when the ruble crashes, when the euro crashes, they don't crash. I'll go back to Keynes and his bankore. So, Keynes, the much better idea, which is just not have money in the basket of assets, but to also have commodities such as gold and oil and everything else to try and create as much stability as you possibly have. So, they have to make a move, the smart move, and they missed it with all their kids. I'm Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the point in the basket. You put Bitcoin in the basket. That way, if Bitcoin goes up and the dollar goes down, Facebook coins still okay. They haven't done it now. Maybe they could do it in the future just like Vitalik, they can weasel, they can change the distribution, they can change all the rules after the game has already started. But that's where there is a difference. So, you haven't got some like, you know, Kache 19-year-old Russian kid creating this currency. You've got like real powerful minds. You've been working in dispute computer systems for 30 years and economists who are top of their league and academics. So, a lot of people who don't like Bitcoin for say proof of work for example are now pouring their attention into an energy and intellect into into Libra coin. So, it has value as a proposal. If it works as they want it to work. And all the kings horses and all the kingsmen could never put Humpty-Dunkty together again. But they have to try, right? They're getting paid. They're on the clock. Let's move on to the exit question. Force prediction. Facebook Libra coin or ripple? Which one would you use? Christian Rootsle? Well, well, well. Okay, if I really have to choose between those two. Yeah, we're trying to deliver things and see how far I can push on their cryptocurrency angle. So, Ben from Wales, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, Ripple's Ripple's crap isn't it? Hopefully it won't be Facebook Libra coin or just be Libra coin. So, and if it's Libra coin, then I would gladly play around with Libra coin. Well, that will be boring, like Josh says. Crypto Raptor, can I get you some Facebooks? I literally threw up a bit when you gave me the alternative. And just, I don't know, I think it would be Facebook. But then the thing is, the fact that the Libra coin, but the problem is this, how is Facebook not going to have an army, a shell army that's worse than Ripple? Just imagine all the crap pots that are on Facebook, you know, you look at crypto, crypto Facebook compared to crypto Twitter. And imagine now you've also, you combine that with the shell army of Ripple, but like 50 times the size in, oh geez, yeah, I'm worried. I'm worried for the future. It's coming. Josh, which is going to go all that Facebook coin or Ripple? Oh man, I'm in that throwing up phase as well. You know, the thing is, I feel bad saying Facebook coin, because even though I can't stand Ripple, at least there are a little style up that made it, you know, the, the, the, the sky point of good, a little sky point could, but I don't know. I think I, I think I would, I think I would go with, with Libra, just purely because I feel that Libra is something that's actually useful purely because they've got this massive 2.8 billion network effect already. And it would be very, very interesting to see it being the first true, well, I guess it's not purely the first because we have wechat and all these guys already doing China, but it'll be the first in the west to really take on a national government's coin or money, purely because of the network effect. So I think I'd like to try at Libra.com. The answer is Facebook coin, a complete sweep for Facebook coin. Josh, a bit not sure. What about Facebook coin versus USD? Oh, Facebook all the way. Is that is what's coming next after Ripple's gone? They'll be taking on the USD. Bad luck for Ripple falling out there, five to nothing in the, in the voting. So much for your billions and billions of dollars in Ripple. Moving on to issue four Bitcoin mining industry is booming. The Bitcoin difficulty is soared 14% to an all new high, but many are still concerned that Bitcoin mining takes too much power. Josh from Valtoro, we're going straight to you. Does Bitcoin mining take too much power? Where at an all time high on the hash rate? Or does the hash rate simply leave the price? Is the price following the hash rate thus making Bitcoin mining always attractive no matter how much power it is? Yeah, I mean Bitcoin mining has never really been that attractive at any stage apart from people that are willing to hold it even at at $10. It was costing more to mine than you'd get, even though you get a lot of coins because you'd have to hold it for a while. I think the thing is that what a lot of people get wrong is that what Bitcoin mining is doing is actually promoting the search for alternative and cheaper energy and it's promoting it like crazy and we're seeing the discovery of electrical resources that we haven't used before, purely for mining. It's absolutely phenomenal what Bitcoin has spawned in terms of the search for renewable energies because they're cheaper in the long run. Once you can set it up, you've just got a waterfall that's constantly coming down. Hey, let's tap that, chuck a miner on it. And then hey, when mining this one is other things for this power. So I don't think it's wonderful. The proof of work, I don't see it as a waste of power. I think the biggest waste of power is talking about how much it's a waste of power. Ben from Wales. It's a great new time. I wasn't prepared for that. I was actually privy because where Christian is staying, he's staying beneath a good friend of mine, she's a climate scientist and a professor in geography. She knows her stuff. When we had a conversation with her and it's quite interesting actually because a year ago I would talk to Bitcoin about her and she was just at against Bitcoin, so it's just nonsense. But now she can seek some value in it but she can't reconcile past the proof of work problems. So proof of work uses a lot of energy. Yes, it does incentivise, you know, use the renewables, but also incentivise as open up with coal mines. And then, you know, sort of nationalist populist leader like Trump can use that as an excuse to say, well, you know, brings jobs into this community, because we've opened up this coal mine and it can, there's actually a lot of fossil fuels which can be used for, it can incentivise fossil fuels, you know, being used to secure Bitcoin. I think the most important thing we need to do is, you know, Bitcoin is, is accept that, so if you go to a Bitcoin conference, you have a certain type of people there. If you go to like a, you know, in the South Francisco conference, we've all, you know, maybe different political ideologies, but we're all interested in tech and we're all interested in Bitcoin's ability to make humans free, which is great. If you're to a mining conference, they're interested in business or a certain money, they're interested in just making, making money. Some of them may have personally, they may have some, some, you know, alignment politically with, with Bitcoin and the cause of Bitcoin, but most people in the mining industry, they just want to make bucks. So I think it's, for me, if you frame miners is just security professionals who are employed by Bitcoin to secure the larger, to secure the blockchain, and then you have miners, miners then have the choice. They can use the use renewables or they can use fossil fuels. So we had a Christian and my geography friend had an absolutely excellent debate and discussion on this. And I wish that, I've sat there thinking, God damn, I wish I had my camera with me because I would record it, and it'd be absolutely brilliant. But I think, and she very much, as someone who's concerned about the climate stuff, like, okay, Bitcoin, as Bitcoin, as we think that, you know, incentivizes renewables, and then we don't want to acknowledge so much that it uses some dirty energy too. For other people, other, you know, thinkers in this world and technicians and computer scientists, that is a big problem. So if we can shift the blame from, it's Bitcoin's fault and proof of works fault, which causes these big CO2 emissions, it's actually the fault of the miners on their operations, not choosing to mine in countries where there's good access to renewables, then that will be better. So for her, now she can focus her energy and she can disagree with those miners and she can target those miners who are using fossil fuels as opposed to just targeting Bitcoin, which I think is a more helpful dialogue for the future. But does that make any sense? The miners always going to use the cheapest available power and they will use the cheapest available power. They will not will undercut them with the next cheapest available power. Yeah, sure. So if we look at the Bitcoin price, if it ramps up and if Trump does change his opinion and then he just tries to mine as much Bitcoin as possible and then he opens up all the coal mines and then he adds government subsidies in order to be able to mine Bitcoin, then that's a very bad thing. So with the price going up, it's very much correlated to the hashing power of Bitcoin. And we've been factored, we've hit like an all time high on hashing power, it's like 65X or whatever, 70X or whatever. So if it goes 10X to 100K, then we can assume that's going to go to 650 that's a lot of energy which we're using. So building some sort of, because I mean, these are businesses, these are big companies, big operations, big industrial operations, big warehouses, they have like real world contact, they're not crypto anarchists, these are business people, these are security guys, tired to help to secure the business. They're not just going to destroy the planet, they're business people, they have a connection to the earth, the planet that we live on, they're not planning to live on Mars, they're not openly building spaces and planning to live on Mars. Like any skier scarce resource which exists on this planet, they're going to flip in pillage it and they don't care how they pillage it. Hopefully we have some, this is why as a community, we need to promote ethical mining should incentivize and it can incentivize renewables and it should. So yeah, if only I could totally put that recycled energy flag in the white paper. Wow, we had it coded from the beginning, you could only use wind and solar to mine this computer that has actually been being Chris Christian Christian, in a conference where people were proposing such nonsense. But Chris Christian also showed me an excellent health finicoid which is from 10 days from running Bitcoin, health finipotent Twitter trying to think of a way for Bitcoin not to use up so much CO2. So, Christy's any energy we use is we should, we should, we, we, society, as society progresses it uses my energy and that's a good thing but it's okay to think that using too much fossil fuels is a bad thing and maybe we can try and tackle that issue somehow. Maybe because these are real world businesses, maybe they can be, you know, they can be made accountable for using fossil fuels or maybe those greenies and those, you know, like my friend, the geography firm, maybe they should, that's where their line of search, they should be targeting those guys and not Bitcoin and proof of work because proof of work isn't evil, the way in which you do proof of work can be, you know, bad for the environment, bad for the planet. All right, Christian Rital, go ahead. I think I've just stolen pretty much everything, Christian Rital was going to say because like this is more his, yeah. Yeah, this is really the one realization I always had. I absolutely like proof of work, proof of work is a beautiful system to create an open permissionless blockchain. So, but we were seeing that we are from from this personal minor that was mining in the basement for putting some key towards into some Bitcoin, those times along gone. We're talking about a big industry and and it's when we have to a little bit step back, maybe as common Bitcoin as to just as defend this industry on every little thing they do. So, but we have to defend those to do right and do and do it in a good way. And and he comes up on there is no crypto NDE for business for such big mining operations. Crypto, Enneke works if you can avoid attribution to your person or to your company or something, but they are so big using so much energy having so big heat emission. You're on the map, you will be found and you're playing in another system. You don't play in this crypto Enneke world. We kind of a little bit used to you with this Bitcoin. They're playing really in a highly regulated energy landscape in a having to do this governments. And even if the government's protecting them because they have a deal with the government or something, you really have to answer the civil society at one point. So, I think really yeah, it's a hard way. I think it we should at least start to to think how we can make a blame for us a few minus a bit and at least get this out of our system to to not defend them or just being what so in a so what kind of attitude. Because if we want mass adoption and kind of Bitcoin and we want normal people to see value in Bitcoin, we have to answer that question on this on the CO2 topic. Even if some people in our community don't care, but if we really want to see this mass adoption to the outside, we need to have at least some reasonable answers we can give. And always remember every hash mind with renewable energy cuts into the profits of a fossil miner. So, if you can get a big, big group of miners together that mine really was renewable. I think we are it will be possible to to cut the profits to to go fossil. And then and then and then reduce this to to to a minimum there. Crypto Raptor. I'm going to go to my default since I'm here here in the coin shares office as well. The default report which is the mining report they produced that said and it's been quite everywhere. 74% at the moment coming from renewables. Now that's obviously less of really healthy figure I think certainly for compared to what a lot of you know it's been banded about. Also, what we're going to say sir? Okay. So yes, I think it's oh god. Yeah, just on the numbers and now they sound good and it's good to see them at least that high. But you have to take into account the whole complete energy that is Bitcoin is mining. Bitcoin is a very power power hungry system. So even if it would be just 10% from fossil foods, it's a fucking dump supplier. And it's nothing at least to be proud of. And when it comes to the coin share numbers and you have to keep in mind those are the most Bitcoin friendly reports we have on this topic. There are other studies that come to not that good numbers. But even if we take those numbers, we we don't see a good trend. Even from the last year kind of coin share report, there was not an increasement. So even if you say, oh look, there's more investment into renewables than into fossil fuels for mining. We should see results in really building up more and more renewables. If those investments are spending for our renewable energy is not creating more and more renewable mining, then those investments seem not to work. So they're I'm interested in the outcome. I want to see results. If we will see from year to year, a better number like next time it's 80, then it's 82 and we see there's a trend going to renewables. I'm a little bit more on ease. But even from the last year, we had a small downside. So percent going down to renew. I think 78, 74 now. A little bit like that area. So at least we have, it's not a topic we should relax on. So we should at least think about how we can get better on those numbers. Definitely. I think there's already been the push over the last 20 years for companies to go green and you've got things like carbon credits. Obviously that doesn't apply to, I think, was Iran recently where they started firing up loads of coal power stations as well. But there's a few other kind of things that make you think twice about that energy being used. And unless there is new fossil fuels burning just to make that bitcoin, think about like the PlayStation 3 back in the day when it came out with folding at home. And you were using your wasted CPU cycles to fold proteins. Now the way the energy, you can't store energy very well. Tesla are doing a bloody good job at trying, but you can't store it very well. So there's a lot of excess energy that's not going to be eaten up. And it's a good thing to be using that if it's going to be burning anyway. So I think there's kind of not intangible efficiency, but a more clouded benefits of bitcoin actually using that electricity. But I think I agree with other people that there's going to be more of a drive to actually use renewables. And there's going to be social pressure as well because a lot of the left, for example, well, I know if you can't spit it down by that, I'll have to say what to add. But there is a very large push for renewables. People that generally don't like the idea of bitcoin, one of the biggest things they say, if they're not a banker or got shares in Goldman Sachs, God forbid, because they're going but anyway, it's all the environmental side. So yeah, I think that's, as long as we really agree there, as long as we're showing, at least the numbers are showing that there's an attempt to generate more from renewables. And I think that's a good thing. But just very, very quickly last point, it all comes to me down to subjective preference. Now, I could say that I think theatres are shit. They use a lot of electricity. You know, I'm just picking something. Why do we have them? I don't want it, you know, that's wasting electricity. You can say that someone who's very obese is using a lot more electricity or whatever. You could say that anyone who's using anything that's slightly inaccessive, you know, a building with its lights on at night, anything like that is waste one person and someone else doesn't see it as waste. Now, I think as long as we're going along the right lines and we're trying to encourage that kind of, you know, responsible mining and responsible energy sourcing, then it's just the same as any other thing. And go just very quickly, if you're back to the question, reminder that if a PlayStation's on for four hours a day, oh, so PlayStation networks, we are on for four hours a day and standby for the rest. That's more electricity than Bitcoin mining, maybe not recently, depending on how big that boundary was, but, you know, it's the same amount of energy. So, should we be saying that no one should be allowed to have a console? Because if they're only using it for four hours a day and the rest is wasting electricity, then you had the idea. Whenever I hear this argument about Bitcoin and it's using too much power, I'm always reminded of Thomas Malthus, who said that the world was going to run out of food and that we needed to have less people. But new technologies were developed, railroads, shipping containers, all these kind of things. We have tons of food and we have tons more people than Malthus ever thought possible. They're also a bit like the people in Infinite Gest. If you show them this movie, they'll drop everything in their life and watch that movie until they die. If you show people the incentives for mining Bitcoin, they'll stop providing power for anything else. We'll turn off all the world's hospitals and every single bit of power will be used to mine Bitcoin. They might not be too off on that, but once again, if the incentives are that good, how are you going to change the incentives? How is Ben going to convince them to do renewables when, like Dan said, a cold powered plant just powered up in Iran and they're going to mine Bitcoin too. If the incentives really are that good, it's going to be unstoppable. I think it's better to look at it through what do we gain from Bitcoin versus what do we gain from the banking system, what do we gain from endless inflation, robbing money from the people versus having a sound currency that's not built by a bank, a government or a central bank that's actually independent, that no one gets an advantage when you use Bitcoin. It's a level playing field for everyone. I want to agree with what Dan said. The extra energy used by PlayStation that are left on, as well as in America and other places, the power used for Christmas lights is equal to the amount of power used for Bitcoin. We could have Christmas lights or we could have a totally free and independent financial system owned by no one. I like Christmas lights, but I think we should have that financial system. Give that a try. It's funny because Trump started off saying that, well, it's out of thin air. Nothing was back yet. Here we are having a conversation how it's using more electricity than Singapore or whatever it is. There's two sides to whatever you want to choose. It's made out of thin air or it's using too much electricity. Which is it guys? I also like the country comparison. It's always getting bigger. It's always like Switzerland and Singapore or Trinidad and Tobago. We're bigger than Comcochet. We're bigger than Japan. Go ahead, Christian. Yeah. The comparison with the Christmas lights or with the PlayStation thing or with the stuff we leave on, he comes to point, I'm not on the PlayStation business. I'm not on the Christmas light business. I think if we just do finger pointing, let those people solve this first or let switch this off first before we do our thing, then we are in a lock up situation and nobody will improve. If they point to Bitcoin and we point to Christmas lights, nothing will change. I'm very engaged in the Bitcoin space. I'm thinking let's don't do this finger pointing. Let's care and optimize as much as we can do while keeping exactly what we want to reach, replacing the money system that's based on credit. Interesting thing. He can agree a lot with the climate people. The intelligent climate people telling you a lot that the credit system puts a lot of problem for the environment because it creates so much demand for growth because we have to repaid a credit that was created and all the things. They just don't see the Bitcoin as a solution because this energy thing stands in a way a little bit because we don't have a good solution or good answers. We can give them if we can find solutions or answers that we can work in the same direction. I think they can even be in the lines that can be built up in a good way. I would agree with that that the gains from switching from the credit system, which enforces consumption, you have to buy new things, those things break and go bad, you have to buy more new things to a system based on Bitcoin, getting more into conservation. A lot of Bitcoiners have already talked about how they're still using their laptop, even though the screen fritzes in and out, they want to save their Bitcoin, they're putting off buying a new car, they reduce their investment into this and that. People are making different choices because of the way Bitcoin is structured and we have to see the difference between the Fiat dollar bill and the inflation free Bitcoin and we get a lot of advantages from that inflation free Bitcoin. It's important to remember, like for Christian, for example, where he comes from. He's been having involved in the Chaos Communication Club for a long time and he's been going to this kind of the Chaos Communication Congresses, which he convinced me to go to over Christmas. Honestly, like 20,000 hackers and technologists in telephony systems, in 3D printing, in robotics, in all sorts of amazing fields and Bitcoin is sidelineed as this little sort of, because they're much on the left, the anarchist, greeny side, so they dismiss it as being this power hungry, whatever. So to just frame the proof of work, it's not evil, it's not bad, it's not bad for the environment, how you commit energy to proof of work can be a problem for the environment and to get those people to get engaged in trying to solve that problem is beneficial and it's a way in which we can bring in all that talent, all these people who are working on microcontrollers who are working on 3D printers, networking systems, we can have all that talent flood into Bitcoin just if we frame the way in which we address that problem better. We can say that incentivise as renewables, which it does, we can also admit that there's also some CO2 emissions which are bad, but it's the actual way in which you do proof of work, the way in which the mind is do proof of work, these people who are hired as security experts to secure the blockchain, secure those transactions, that's the thing which we can point at and that's the thing which they can help work out and solve that problem as well as a whole bunch of other problems and incorporating Bitcoin into all that infrastructure and things. Like 20,000 hackers, on our Bitcoin table, we had maybe 20 or 30 people like to have those 20,000 hackers interested in Bitcoin. I know a lot of us Bitcoin is because we instanced the value in it, we think, well, I say to see value then whatever, but it wouldn't hurt to have their input and this is a way in which we can make that bridge and say maybe get their input as well. Moving on to the exit question, popular commentator Max Kaiser says that the price of Bitcoin follows the hash rate, is this true crypto raptor? Is muted. Do you know what? I can't remember, I can't remember, I heard that there were some good arguments for one way and I can't remember which it is because I can't remember. So Friday's up. It follows the price up into the rate. One thing I do know is that the mining despire was not going to happen. Ben from Wales. As you know, I'm like, I'm full left. I very much appreciate even the works of box and I think his theory of value was beautiful and that he didn't just think that value was price. You know, he thought the value was much more complicated. There's exchange value, there was use value. There was a whole bunch of different types of value and I think that it's a good metric. So the hashing power of Bitcoin is a good metric on its value and we talk about Bitcoin being undervalued or overvalued and just by saying that was saying that maybe the theory value that is something's price that's exactly how it should be valued by the people who are willing to pay for it. Maybe that's not entirely correct. So we can use the hashing rate as a Max is totally right. It does sink in but we have like an all time high on hashing rate which means that maybe the price needs to catch up to that all time high of hashing rate which is why I'm very, very, very bullish on the price of Bitcoin and I think value itself isn't just price and it's something which requires a lot of different inputs to try and calculate the actual value of a thing. So currently it's the price should catch up to the hashing. Christian Ritzel. We had on the less account communication congress we had a talking round with one of the Genesis mining person that we were discussing exactly that that that that thing and we came a little bit more to the conclusion that the hash rate is following price but there is a little shift minus a very early on seeing trends and deciding on investments. So you may often see a little bit more miner going into risk and doing investments into mining even before the price is going up a little bit but there's almost normally they you have to pay at the end as a miner you have to pay your mining builds. So it depends very much on the market price you get. So you cannot just make a big hash rate investment and just hope that that that that it will reinvest with with the price just following. So I think this is a little bit magical thinking but the the the other way around makes a lot of sense. So if you expect the price rise and you see this very early as a miner then it would make sense that there's we see big investments and then this follows. Josh Kagala. Nope Josh on mute. All right we're going to move on to predictions or a story of the week. Ben are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Not particularly I'd completely I'd completely forgotten about this part of the show. I'm sure Dan is ready. Dan is fully ready now. Dan is telling me but I mean I can predict that I'm going to be working on some cool projects. I mean Christian we're sort of thinking we've been doing a lot of thinking around the mesh network experiment. I've been doing for example and we're hoping to use some of the you know to imbriated about the rest of the world we have a lot of these TV areas on people's on top of people's rooftops with the cables which run down into the houses which are generally close to a power point. So I hope to make a small device which I can plug into that and then that connects the antenna of the SP32 for example we'll connect to the TV aerial and then all those TV arrows can connect together and then using that mesh network I can broadcast that all the bit of the quintranxion data which would be absolutely rad. That's sick. That's amazing. While you're repurposing all that crap on the rooftops man you know Dan everybody's up here and then not be news for anything so yeah so hopefully I'm going to be working on that and it's going to be good but it may not work it may just be like we're just speculating here so that's that's my off-the-calf prediction of the week is I'm going to try and work on that a little bit more. All right Christian are you ready with the story of the week or prediction maybe just something that's going on in your world where you're traveling next something like that good. Yeah a little bit loud from iworld the what we at the moment are doing we're putting together the lightning conference in Berlin on 19th and 20th of October and now it seems more and more that we are can have a final thing on the venue and so tickets will be out soon so just this is kind of the event so this is really now happening the tickets will come so anybody interested in lightning and seeing the future of lightning the conference will be a little bit more than the hex days we had in the past there really have from every implementation big implementation we will have people there will be great exchange of minds where we can go with the payment network of the future so feel free to invite me I think the uLs the lightning conference.com check if you can see anything and you take it to grab in the next few days there. All right and crypto Raptor prediction or story of the week I think that Bitcoin is going to be up fear is going to be down I'm not going to mention the a word because it gets me in trouble but I do know that because I'm recently a daddy that I'm going to be my prediction is that I'm going to be clearing up lots of poo and lots of sick next week and it's actually quite fun. Who and sick but it's fun let's cut a charge from Vortoro it doesn't have that problem just quite yet good. Yeah well I think you know there's so much happening in the space I just wake up every day feeling like I'm living in a satellite. I've got to reiterate what Christian said it's just wonderful to see all the work that they've done that former to do the landing network hack days and now with this lightning conference in Berlin I'm super looking forward to it really hack goes off to all the the full of boys for organizing all that stuff and yeah I'm really excited to see what happens with with all the development in the lightning space it's really really exciting so I'll be jumping on a students ticket are available and also you can check out a lot of the videos from lightning hack day are going to be right here on the world crypto network thanks to Josh and Vortoro so check out Vortoro.com thanks for sponsoring the lightning hack day and for sharing the footage with us so we can all watch it too those are coming out shortly I'm having a great time in Barcelona continuing the mad tour I just want to give a shout out to my hosts Michael and Rita thanks so much for hosting me and letting me broadcast here from not bitcoin.com studios in Barcelona I'm a great time into the Barcelona trading conference there were a lot of traders there they had a lot of bitcoin logos but only a couple mentions of the bitcoin name mostly they like to use the logo and they like to say crypto uh thanks to eat Toro for the free shirt I'm wearing right now it's got the hotdle uh hotour guy on it uh funny note at the bottom of the shirt here you can barely see it it says hotdle is not investment advice just pretty funny they had to cover their butts on the front of the shirt uh I interviewed the tallest women in cryptocurrency look at that uh I'm a normal height around five ten they must be at least seven foot uh incredibly tall when we had a great a fun little interview just a couple minutes uh here's the dance floor at a bitcoin convention yeah it's empty and upstairs we had it's full of finance guys my god it's full of finance guys and that's pretty much what happened at the convention it's full of finance guys uh so uh check out our donation drive here on tallycoin our summer gear fundraiser we're getting a little closer to the goal the price of bitcoin is helping us out which likely even got our 24th donations so thanks so much to donor number 24 uh we've raised 77% of our goal we've raised 11 not 11 we've raised 1100 and 66 dollars towards our goal of 1400 and 97 dollars to buy new gear uh like the microphone and camera that I'm using now uh we also have a fond farewell to Jim Bout major league baseball player and author of the memoir ball four uh ball four was a classic book that really told people what was going on behind the scenes in baseball before that book uh no one knew that they were cheating on all their wives and smoking and drinking and using drugs and whatever but baseball players are kind of seen as a holier than now and uh invincible superman but they became much more human after ball four and uh it's a really interesting read it's uh one of the first major baseball or sports tell all books uh Jim Bout and I think he was about I want to say 89 or something don't have it right here uh but Jim Bout in 1964 right there planning for New York days uh so thanks so much to everybody for watching uh we're gonna try to do this every week it's harder and harder while I'm on the road and I'm in a different city and I went to the conference for two days yesterday uh but we're having a great time here in Barcelona uh the mad tour might continue it might keep going or might go back home to Vegas what to see how that goes uh but thanks so much be sure to give us a thumbs up and a share uh check out Ben's other shows we've got Max's been uploading videos as well he's got some new tutorials some new lightning network with sobby stuff and we've got Max's interviews from unchained and from breaking Bitcoin and the Netherlands all coming on soon as well as the proof of work showing Wednesday lots of stuff to watch here on the World Crypto Network be sure to subscribe down below and until next time bye bye