The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben from BTC Socialist. Hello. Josh Kigala from Valtoro. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one, Facebook coin. Long rumored, long predicted, but it's finally here, allegedly. According to the British broadcasting company, internally, Facebook's engineers are calling it global coin and planning on testing it by the end of the year. The company has also been speaking with Coinbase and Gemini exchanges with plans for them to host the new asset and they've been talking to regulators about the legality of the world's largest social network, suddenly getting into the printing your own money game. Ben, your thoughts on global coin? Yeah, it all kind of makes sense now, doesn't it? Like the, the binding of all the crypto currency adverts. And yeah, it's been quite an obvious move from them that you're going to have a Facebook coin coming out at some point. So me, this is kind of like the, it's too late because you've got non-proprietary money. So now you're going to try and make a proprietary money to compete with the non-proprietary money. Where, if you look at other realms where non-proprietary is kind of one-hour, look at Linux and web servers and look at the software you're foam runs on, it's more and more predominantly Linux based and then look at Wikipedia and the sort of private and cycle-pedia market. So I think when you have this so-called free market of money and then you have this non-proprietary money, all the good talent goes to the non-proprietary and then to then make a proprietary. So it's not going to, on the long term, it's not going to be able to compete with Bitcoin. On the short term, they've got like a Facebook have an endpoint monopoly. So it can very much compete with Bitcoin. And then also they can, because it's somewhat going to be centralised and they're going to be able to make it more of a stable coin. In many ways it will kind of work better as a money for people. But on a longer time frame then it's almost like someone deciding a few years into Wikipedia, someone deciding to bring out a proprietary centralised encyclopedia online. It's just a bad business decision. But in the short term, the other benefit you may have to Bitcoin is just increasing. So for a long time the general masses have been told, Bitcoin, bad Bitcoin, bad Bitcoin, bad Bitcoin, bad. And then you have these big companies and organisations making their own coins like JP Morgan Coin and now you've got Facebook Coin and people are going to think, okay, the next logical step is why are these things trying to imitate that thing which everyone has told me is bad? And that could drive more people towards Bitcoin. But it's almost like it's just another thing for Bitcoin to make Bitcoin my anti-fragile. I just think of it as like a big boss. So you've got like you play the Bitcoin game and then you get to the big boss and you have to take out the big boss. And this is like someone who's semi big, like the slightly more than a big boss but not the big big boss. The big big boss would be like the dollar or the word reserve currency. And it's as if they're making like that Frankenstein big boss just before you get to the big boss. So you've got all this proprietary influence. Because I know he's been one of the sort of USPs which one of the things they're able to do is Facebook is they're able to penetrate into countries and local governments and big banks and then try and build big relationships. I know he's been talking to Mark Carney, he's like an anti Bitcoin guy. I'm like that's the Bank of England governor. And he's been picking Mark Carney's brains on how to make it good sort of currency I suppose. I'm like it's in Mark Carney's interest to try and make it work because obviously it being Facebook they can have some control whereas they have no control over Bitcoin. So yeah it's almost like Mark Zuckerberg and then all these big government and big banks have all got together and they've made this like Frankenstein big boss and then Bitcoin is going to take that out and then it's going to come after the dollar. So it'll just make it stronger in the long run. It does seem like the boss before the boss definitely a significant challenge for Bitcoin. What I think so interesting about this is I talked to the CEO of KICK a few years ago when KICK was launching their ICO. You can check out the interview right here on the world crypto network. And what he said is that the only way that he thought his social network could compete with Facebook, the dominant social network, was to print their own coin with the KICK ICO and they had a complicated system to reward developers to try to work on their applications. Now Facebook has won up them again creating presumably their own coin. What I thought was most interesting about this is the part about the exchanges. If the Facebook coin is spendable, exchangeable, holdable off of the Facebook website then it's vastly different than Facebook credits that they tried before. They already had Facebook credits just like Amazon coin. You could use it only on their website, only for their things. That gives them control. The problem with this new coin idea is that it also gives them responsibility. If you spend Facebook coin for a gun and you kill someone is Facebook coin responsible? Because I know Charlie Ceren was held responsible when he sold Bitcoin to someone who then sold it on the Silk Road. The Silk Road guy was held responsible when he had a website. Are these same things going to be carried over to Facebook especially when they're printing money? This is the, with it being more like a stable coin as well. They're going to have to have a level of involvement in it which makes it centralized and then you're right. Are they then responsible for things that coins then used for? There certainly no Satoshi Nakamoto benefit here. If the price of the coin loses its stability, we know exactly who to blame. If the coin is used for something terrible like terrorism, we know exactly who to blame. There's a huge brand risk in this. Facebook already has a negative brand image right now. All the privacy issues, all the Russian hacking, etc. And now they want to be money. It would be a lot easier just to accept Bitcoin but then again you don't get to print your own Bitcoin and everyone just loves to print money. Josh Skigala. Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, when Zuckerberg, I think it was last month or something like that, came out and had an obvious sort of epiphany in bed or on the toilet that we should be more private and that we're going to encrypt everything and not leak any more data. And it really didn't make sense because, well, how are you going to make money? Because the only way you make money is to track data, understand, apart from the metadata, is to really understand exactly what you're talking about to deliver you an ad. Now, if they did do that, hey, fully encrypt, if they did fully encrypt, then what's your business model? Well, Ripple has a very amazing business model because at one time there, he was almost the richest man in the world, purely because they printed way too much of their own Ripple and it got way inflated in 2017. So, you know, this is a definite business model. The thing is that it's pegged to the dollar. So it won't have this moonshot thing going on. There's many, many facets to this entire thing and you touched on it there if somebody buys a weapon and kills someone or what happens and does the bank account that Facebook has get frozen? Does the entire economy go down? Can a row government take down the bank account if the UN government can't rule it out? Do they freeze your Facebook account? Do you get kicked off Facebook? This is serious business. Yeah, that's right. I mean, they would definitely have the KYC down pat because they know exactly who you are already. But, you know, there's really an interesting case here for Bitcoin. I don't think this is a competition to Bitcoin. I think this is an absolute knee-shaking competition for the entire banking system. Yeah, not for investment banking, but for retail banking, this is almost like a nail in the coffin because once you start and we chat showed this that they most commerce in China is done on WeChat now. And so I'll be interested to see what happens here. And the thing is that because if this is a stablecoin, which is presumably is, meaning it is not a stablecoin as such, it is pegged to the US dollar, then it's a very boring asset to hold. And if it's a true digital asset, if it is a blockchain asset, it means it's tradable with Bitcoin. And I'll be very, very interested to see some, all these, they're in a 2.7 billion people, all of a sudden being having an easy on-wrap into crypto and seeing this boring, stable thing and seeing, oh, wow, Bitcoin's going up and having maybe someone will write a bot for the chat, for WhatsApp that you can easily convert to Bitcoin. And watching people go, oh, I might just put 10 bucks into Bitcoin and seeing it rise up and seeing people actually open their eyes to the opportunity that lies there in an unstable asset. So it'll be very, very interesting to see what happens in the next year. I think Josh is right. The ability to buy Bitcoin with Facebook coin may be its killer app. I was wondering what the exchanges were going to do with it, how they were going to make money if it's a stablecoin, who cares if it's on Coinbase or whatever exchange. But if it's a way to link your bank account to Facebook, which everyone's already done you buy everything through there, etc. Then buy the Facebook coin, send it to Coinbase, trade it for real Bitcoin or better yet, something in the app where you could just do it through the chat and you have your wallet there and you don't even have to have a QR code and all these other things. Could be very interesting. Also interesting to note, Amazon also wants to become their own bank. Josh has a good point on fighting the retail banking system. That's who this is really fighting. Facebook coin may be more popular than Bitcoin. You may be able to say it has more users, more user base, things like that. But Bitcoin's always going to be the money for people that want to buy anything. If you want to buy some things, you can get them through Facebook coin. If you want anything, you get it through Bitcoin. That's an advantage. If you want to be pseudo anonymous, you could use Bitcoin. If you want to be completely not anonymous at all, I imagine you would use Facebook coin. Exit question, how long will Facebook's global coin last one year, three years, or forever? Ben? Yeah, I think it's probably going to last a couple of years. But decentralization will always win in a long enough time frame. So yeah, just a couple of years. Josh Kegala. I think it'd be foolish to underestimate Facebook's network effect. I mean, the whole entire definition of Facebook is network, is social network. And I feel that they will outlast their dollar peg and eventually need to unpeg from the dollar. This also is something that Hayek was a very big fan of, is competing currencies of private establishments. And the brand name really giving value and people trusting a brand name. Now, if Facebook start playing silly bugs and inflating their unpegged coin, then people will start to leave that for another brand name's coin. And the good thing the Bitcoin has is its own brand name without a company. It's without a government, without a border. And so yeah, I think it'll take a very, very long time for that. I mean, Bitcoin, sorry, Facebook coin, global coin, whatever they want to call it, will be around for a long time. Josh might have just accidentally found a business model for Facebook here. You uncouple the coin from the dollar, then every year you print more Facebook coin, give those to the company to help support the company. There it is. We don't need advertising anymore. Facebook just becomes some kind of strange government corporation hybrid. I think Facebook coin will last at least three years. Facebook has tons of money for networking, marketing, technology, all the things we talk about wanting in Bitcoin, great advertising, tons of advertising, celebrities doing advertising, whatever you can dream of, Facebook has the ability to do it and to do it with Facebook coin, either overtly hiring a celebrity, covertly hiring a blogger, overtly covertly, hiring a thousand bloggers, Facebook can do whatever they want, they have tons of money. So they're not going to give up easy, but eventually Bitcoin will win. Issue two, Zapo for sale. Zapo, the lovable, unpredictable Bitcoin vault company and winner of the bit give bowling tournament back in 2014 is allegedly for sale with coin base and fidelity in the running. Coinbase looks to continue to expand its custody business, desiring Zapo's deep Swiss vaults and switch, sweet, rich deposits, while fidelity is playing catch up, dreaming of a new crypto gold rush. What's better for Bitcoin? Coinbase continuing to hold all the cards and getting stronger or a newcomer, but giant financial player like fidelity controlling the vaults. I ask you, Josh Cagala. You know, at Voltoro, we're in exchange. We hold people's keys, but we constantly remind people to hold your own keys. And so whoever buys this, really the ethos of Bitcoin, the ethos of cryptocurrencies is to hold your own keys. Of course, that will never be 100% of the case. There are way too many people that are too uneducated or just too busy to learn the massive amounts of security and op-sec. You need to go through the secure own keys. But I feel that this will get easier and easier. And I really applaud developers that are working on easy solutions to secure your own keys in the future. But I'd like to see fidelity get some backlog of understanding instead of trying to come up with their own solutions from the get-go. Because that much crypto, which fidelity will handle now that they're going to unbord institutional investors through Wall Street, the last thing I want to do is wake up to see that fidelity has been hacked for a quarter of all Bitcoin or something. And just a little background on Zappo, I think, Wences, I want to say Cesaris, I might get that wrong. He was an old Dot Commer. He'd done very well in the Dot Combs. He started out with just a laptop and he was storing his friends Bitcoin on his offline laptop. And it was a pretty secure solution except his friends had presumably millions and now maybe even billions of dollars in Bitcoin. So Wences' laptop that was Zappo became this immense series of Swiss faults and tightly controlled hard core offline private storage for the wealthy who have millions and millions of dollars of Bitcoin. So it is a big prize for Coinbase or for fidelity who doesn't have any big prizes yet. Ben from Wales. Yeah, I was in a private conversation a few years ago with someone involved in a big exchange and their custodian ship solution basically was a tricer. And that was it. I don't know how many tricers they had but it was basically just a tricer. So yeah, so no custodian ship. Mark Carpellis famously kept his cold storage underneath his cat and everything worked out fine at Malgarks. You're welcome possibly go on and this is kind of the point like fidelity. They've been going since the early 70s so they've had a lot of experience managing people's money and people's funds and they've got the huge reputation Coinbase. They kind of got Lenovo a reach, they got rich quick and then it always felt like they were trying to actually operate on the scale which the company had managed to become. So they actually would quite like Coinbase to be the ones to buy Sappo. Just because I think that for DALITY they have kind of the wherewithal and they have the ability to be able to go and find good custodian solution from somewhere. Whereas Coinbase don't and Coinbase need, they just need like a decent company to come and show them how to hold their hotel keys properly. Whereas for DALITY that no matter what, because for DALITY because they're going to be managing an institutional investment and they're regulated. And in order to be able to offer that level of custodianships then that they're going to have to have a decent solution. Whereas Coinbase can get away with not. I mean all the two businesses as well, are they because Coinbase is an exchange isn't it for regular normal users? Whereas for DALITY. Remember they claimed they weren't a wallet and they didn't want to hold funds but now they're becoming a vault. They're an exchange and a vault and there are a lot of things. But I mean are they just, is it just securing people's funds in the exchange or is it so for DALITY they're going to be holding big huge OTC funds for institutional investors. So they've got a huge portfolio of like 300 billion or something for their investors and their clients. So yeah, so I mean I like for DALITY a couple of years ago in the UK that they were campaigning. As much as you can like one of these big sort of you know, an institution, an Wall Street Institutions. Institutions. But they were campaigning for Chief Executives for their incentives. So Chief Executives they had to, if they were given shares as part of their package, their employment package or whatever then they could cash after three years. Whereas Fidelity campaigns have extended to five years to help make executives incentives aligned with that of the company. So you don't get coming in sets, executives swooping and then you know sort of line their own pockets after three years, piss off and leave a broken company. So they're involved in you know like the FTSE and lots of they've got a big share of the FTSE. So the within their incentives to try and encourage good behavioural companies and I mean markets as well. So I quite like them as a company and yeah I think they'll be fine. They'll work out some support across the audience solution. They don't they don't need Zappos much as Coinbase probably needs Zappos. Ben rooting for the super rich capitalist over the Novo rich capitalist. A very close difference there. Well yeah it's true but then so in that same respect Fidelity I think like 70% of his own by the employees. So yeah it is a big you know financial institution. You trust the devil you know you're not the devil that you don't know. So yeah it's pretty common. Now Coinbase always searching for a business model usually just happy to steal other people's business models. See Coinbase Vault which already duplicates these functions Coinbase Commerce which duplicates BitPay or Coinbase Pro GDAX whatever it's called out which duplicates cryptocurrency and every other exchange. So it's neat to see them actually trying to buy someone instead of just stealing their business model there must be something that Zappo has that they can't just steal. Interesting question no one's brought this up yet I'll go to Josh then Ben. Which one of these companies do you trust more not to do fractional reserve Bitcoin? If you let them take let's say the Zappo Vault is a thousand Bitcoin it's probably more. It's a thousand Bitcoin. Why trade out those thousand Bitcoin when you could trade out five thousand Bitcoin tokens? No one's going to want all thousand at once right Josh? Who do you trust? Go ahead Josh. Yeah I mean this is very close to my heart. I don't trust at all any of them. I built the transparency protocol for Vaultoro back in the day after Mt. Gox collapsed. This was one of our inventions to allow exchanges to be truly auditable by the people. And this is what I want to see. I will not trust Coinbase. I will not trust Fidelity until they publish their Cold Wallet addresses for everyone to verify and then also publish an anonymized list of everybody's holdings and the amount of Bitcoin and anonymous list has. So every user can check their username, their anonymous name against the Bitcoin holding check the sum of all holdings and then check the Cold Wallet to see that maybe at least 80% is in there. 20% in the heart we can't publish every single hot wallet but at least the Cold Wallets shouldn't be that many. And then there's also Peter Todd and Greg Maxwell's solution which is a bit harder for a grandmouther check because I mean it's easier in one way because you just see a green tech tick but you don't really know how to verify it properly very easily. You have to sort of trust the math whereas the glass books protocol that we use at Vaultoro is really very very simple mechanism. And proofable proof of reserves is something we've talked about for years. Crackin promised it years ago didn't provide it coin bases never provided or promised maybe if they can't buy Zappo Fidelity should become a knock on Vaultoro store or a coin base or vice versa. Ben what do you think about fractional reserve Bitcoin? Yeah no I think you're right don't trust any of them but obviously particularly if you don't trust them with holding your own keys unless they've got some sort of trust protocol that makes it better but I mean for big institutional investors who want to buy Bitcoin some of them aren't allowed or in their own keys you know they can't they can't invest in securing their own Bitcoin they have to like these big sort of pension funds and so on. So we need their funds to be as safe as possible and the only right transparency is really the only way to kind of achieve that. This is why I would trust something like Fidelity more just because they've been going for longer and they've kind of got more of a reputation built up to I mean clearly you know Coinbase are too worried about reputation or so they wouldn't let Brian Armstrong on Twitter because every time you tweet see you know he puts that company in a bad light just a sort of tweet the other day from it was Luke Dash Jr and they put a post on Coinbase saying there's some stable coin and how has all the properties Bitcoin has and they look Dash Jr had to spreep in and say no it hasn't you should these actual lies you shouldn't have these on your website and then Brian Armstrong responded by oh yeah sorry about that and they're just kind of a goofy company they've always been a goofy company and I think I'll continue to be a goofy company and so like keep doing that thing on Twitter where he replaces Bitcoin with crypto. He wanted to celebrate Bitcoin pizza day and sure it's kind of become a marketing thing all the companies have a Bitcoin pizza tweet and they all have parties and you know it's it's fun but it doesn't really have the value you used to have but he wanted to celebrate and he said this was the world's first crypto payment and it's like come on Brian's Bitcoin pizza day you can say Bitcoin today it embarrasses the rest of us when you have this whole I can't say Bitcoin thing no one's forcing that on you you can say Bitcoin just because you didn't win 2x or whatever you're mad about with Bitcoin you can say the word it made you a billionaire it made you fortune 500 all this nonsense you now can't say the word on Twitter you got some psychological problems they better check that out I agree with Ben they should have kicked him off Twitter like just like Trump like you just at the very top you got to say no your Twitter accounts a marketing account now you're going to tweet nice polite things stuff from your itinerary stuffs about your trips and your conferences and celebrating your employees you're not going to tweet this random crypto payment thing who are you trying to convince Brian like the rest of us are not idiots and we know it was Bitcoin pizza day like it's not going to change we're going to be like oh it was coin base US decoin pizza day because we're idiots I don't understand that so he keeps doing it go ahead Ben sorry interrupted yeah no so no yeah absolutely so they shouldn't be trusted with big institutional money so institution which have pension funds and the other through custodian service then in a way should they be trusted with those funds but hopefully you know if they did bring Zappo and bring Zappo's team and Zappo could help add some skill to coin base and and when Brian Armstrong says things like that on Twitter you then think well what sort of business decisions is he making what you know what's going on behind the scenes and technologically when technology the actual technology running get coin base so it's quite concerning so they need some talent in there they need a decent company to come and show them how to store people's bitcoins is better I imagine so hence why the hefty price tag whereas for Dallity you know that I'm pretty sure that they're sober enough to be able to make good decisions and work out to help people's keys effectively Ben's winning me over here I think with coin base you have more of a probability of them being hacked than having to do a fractional reserve to cover up the hack whereas Fidelity a more traditional company if they got hacked presumably they'd presumably go to insurance rather than go to cover up and fractional reserve printing but we don't know and we just speculated here we have no inside information about what they'll do when coin bases hacked moving on to the exit question forced prediction will Zappo sell to coin base Fidelity or no one Josh Gagala Samsung Samsung Ben Coinbase hopefully and the answer is I'll go with Fidelity why not Fidelity they got deeper pockets they'll just buy them did you know the world crypto network has its own audio podcast on iTunes and many other places where podcasts are served check out the world crypto network audio podcast subscribe and give us a rating our current average rating is 3.9 with 57 ratings thanks so much for rating the world crypto network on iTunes also we'd like to give a shout out to Vladimir van der Laan for being the core maintainer of bitcoin for the last five years and the best part about Vladimir's reign is that we haven't had to say his name hardly at all we haven't said a thing about him really since he was appointed he's been a quiet and a noble maintainer perhaps a little bit like Linux where Linux just sits there and listens to everyone else and then he makes his decision based upon the information he's given he hasn't once said that he'll give the keys back to Satoshi if Satoshi comes back which is what happened to the previous core maintainer of bitcoin Gavin Andreessen who said if Satoshi comes back I'll give him the keys then this guy with a laptop fooled him into thinking he was Satoshi and everyone said oh no Gavin's going to give random people the keys so shout out to Vladimir good work issue three square number one Jack Dorsey is done it again the twitter and square CEO is back in the news this week with his company square becoming the top finance app in the United States as the app says in its description spend cash buy bitcoin many are noting that this may be the first bitcoin bull run where it's actually relatively easy to acquire the fledgling cryptocurrency from legitimate companies Ben is the success of cash app and the relative ease which one can buy bitcoin it is responsible for that success sorry no sorry I actually thought about that but it's very true like we're going to have another bull run and it's like buying bitcoin I was the easiest thing to do and I know that on you know I've been a fan of the bitcoin group for years and I know for years one of your main criticisms of Coinbase in fact was that it didn't remain more like the cash app and just an easy way just to go on and just buy some bitcoin and that's it that's all you need to do that and do it well and I think Jack Dorsey he's such a credit to you know the guy's great he appreciates that kind of like sober clean you know keep it simple stupid design twitter if you look at twitter sorry Chinese that much like it was just like a clean platform and with some certain functions and then there's not really been that many functions which have been added where as you look at Facebook how it started out and then how it ended up now and if your new user goes into Facebook it's confusing there's so much going on it's so busy and whereas twitter's not like that and Jack Jack doesn't work like that I think that's inherently what drew him to bitcoin was the fact that bitcoin similar bitcoin it's clean it works and it's not doesn't over complicate things it keeps it simple I think that's I was reading a story about how how he first got bitcoin working with the cash services and it was in a hacker a hacker a hackathon at the cash offices and they took them about a week and it was him and another programmer what's his name it's like Brock it's Mike Mike Brock that's it him and Mike Brock they sat down and they they hacked out for like a week trying to get it working eventually they got it working and then Jack Dorsie went over to the twitter offices and went to the coffee shop there which accepts bitcoin and bought coffee and he said like he talks I mean I think it was in consensus last year and he talked about how like exciting it was to actually spend bitcoin and like feel the experience of using bitcoin and I can say person like it's so true when you're developing on bitcoin and when you're actually like building things for bitcoin every day like you have this like whoa it's a flipping app you know even if it's something you've done a million times before today I had to like um I'm coordinating with so I'm going to be helping out in the San Francisco conference making these little modules for some point of cell things and I had to coordinate with this engineer never use bitcoin before um and I had to like get him to he said well I need some bitcoin to experiment with this thing which I sent him and I was like okay I said well you know install is a custodial service wallet so it's a wallet of satar shoots but it's a good wallet works well and I said go get the the lightning number from the light and then send that to me I he sent it to me and within seconds I sent him like you know five thousand satoshes or something was so quick and it was so like frictionless and it's something I've done so many times before but um because we're actually building something I had like this you know wow feeling and I think Jack Dorsey gets that he gets that feeling because he's building stuff using bitcoin um he's the polar opposite to Zuckerberg the Zuckerberg approach of okay you know now I need to create my own thing which I have control over Jack Dorsey understands it it's perfect as it is I think at heart Jack Dorsey's like a cypher punk you know pre-open source dude um uh and uh he just he just wants to support bitcoin and I think that's just absolutely fantastic um uh no so it's uh yeah it's um it's uh I'm really you know stoked that they're doing so well with the cash app um I couldn't think of any other company I would want you know with a you know sort of centralized service which they're offering um in that position I couldn't think of anyone else there's a really good the first time I saw Jack Dorsey was on a there's a youtube series called foundation which was by uh it's like a whole bunch of Silicon Valley interviews and I think he used the first interview on there and if if you get a chance go on you to look at foundation Jack Dorsey and it's from really early on I think it's like six years ago seven years ago you had to go somewhere and um uh he's just he's just such a sober dude you know when he just makes such good good decisions and you can see why he he is where he is um and uh you know I'm it's great I mean it's last when we had that ball run and we had coin bases the the number one app on the app store you know for the reasons we've been speaking about like I was worried I was thinking this is too much responsibility for them where it was crashing all the time and the website kept crashing and people think Bitcoin is related to and crash and like Bitcoin's down and it's like no coin bases down it's not Bitcoin it was awful now we've got now we've got you know Jack Dorsey and it's good decision-making and um a restable product there instead so that's great that's great I think it's a great parallel between Facebook and Twitter Jack very could have made a Square coin or Twitter coin he could be trading those instead of Bitcoin we could be doing the same dance that we're going to do with Facebook I also agree with Ben a great job Jack keeping it simple I'm sure every altcoin in the business is backed up a dump truck full of tokens to give to him to add their goofy altcoin to Square app but if he adds even one altcoin it complicates the app infinitely it makes it much more difficult to say go to cash app buy some Bitcoin and if you say that about coin base right now you could end up with Bitcoin cash you could end up with auger I mean there's a hundred random coins on coin base now it doesn't have the same value that it used to have when it was a more simple direct website I would rather be selling Bitcoin which I think is kind of a digital gold instead of these flyby night tokens but of course we talked about how coin base needs to the fees and they need the altcoin trading and the one thing people do with altcoins is buy them and sell them all the time the problem with digital gold is you buy it once you put it in your treasure your ledger your secure hardware vault and you never move it again coin base doesn't make any money so let's go to Josh Kagala what do you think about vault the success of cash app yeah I think it's fantastic and I really applaud Jack for the simpleness I've never used it I'd be interested to see how that works with KYC and stuff I'm not sure it is America only right now they do need to fix that problem it does kind of limit the the interest here from our international panel yeah but but I you know I think it's it is good and I agree with Ben that Twitter has stayed as I think the only thing they've changed is they made the character count a bit longer and they've changed it to a little heart symbol or something like that but you know you're right he has stayed very very consistent with the original Twitter I mean it really hasn't changed since day one I'm sure in the background a lot has changed the scale but yeah for the user front it's it's very solid I would be interested to see if Facebook tried to get cash app to to allow as an onboarding seeing that Twitter is a competitor but you know the whole cash app and Square is it is it Square that's cash app yeah Square it really is a different company so even though Jack Dawes is the CEO both I'm not sure if Facebook see that as kind of competition or an alliance to jump on but yeah I agree that it's really really good that he stuck to the original the original coin and the one that's got the most traffic by far in terms of transactions that's got the best developers in the world working on it that has the layer two solutions that allow it to scale globally now also so we'll you know we'll see what happens but yeah hats off it's the only responsible thing to sell you see people selling Bitcoin cash or some of these other alternatives maybe they win maybe they don't but I wouldn't want to be responsible for selling those let's move on to the exit question why didn't Coinbase do this years ago they had the shift card with the shift company was sponsored by Coinbase they had the Coinbase app they had Bitcoin they had the card they had it all why didn't they just make cash app Ben from Wales go ahead when you have like newvo reach comes so when you have you know relatively small companies and inexperienced people suddenly get a lot of money they they want to do everything and they want to take over the world and they make very unsolvable decisions and this is why you so they they didn't realize that their original business model was in fact absolutely fine business model and if they took to it they'd have a lot more respect they probably a lot more maybe not a lot more money but they will have a lot more money in the long term so yeah it's it's you know they should have they should have done this but you know they haven't they haven't got checked or see there making you know making the lead decisions they've got Brian Armstrong he's the food so say it's a funny thing because it really solves some of the Bitcoin pain points for Bitcoiners for the actual people interested in this who want to spend it who want to use it for all of their purchases you have the sole credit card then you have the app if they take Bitcoin you pay with the app if they take the credit card you pay with the credit card and it detracts from your Bitcoin seems like a no-brainer for Coinbase something they should have seen coming they should have seen the need for even Apple now is mirroring this with their new Apple Pay card Apple Pay isn't just an Apple on your phone they're having a little card it's going to be a competitor to all the credit cards this puts Apple cash app and square right in line with any other payment company solutions you can bet Facebook Amazon Bitcoin these other things are going to be right in there in the competition Josh what do you think why didn't Coinbase do this years ago yeah that's difficult I mean originally Coinbase was this easy to buy solution right I mean I I guess I guess with scale comes other you know one thing I've noticed running Voltoro is that every time I go to a conference I get inundated by other businesses trying to do BISDEV and so it's very very hard to lose focus on your core thing because you go oh wow opportunity opportunity opportunity and you're constantly looking at all these different opportunities and you feel like oh I'm going to miss out if I don't chase this opportunity and to be to be frank like you said earlier these other old coins they are really the casino and what do casinos do they make money and so it doesn't surprise me that Coinbase got sidetracked by other opportunities and not I want to say Coinbase I'm also talking about the investors behind Coinbase and that's usually the ones that are constantly knocking on Brian Armstrong's door I'm sure and anyone else is running a crypto company saying hey you should you know go towards this otherwise we're not funding the next funding round or whatever but saying that you know this I'm a competition maximalist and I like that competition is what's happening here we're seeing someone with a lot of swing a massive social network namely Twitter creating something fantastic so I'm glad that Coinbase didn't and and that we've got more more options in the on ramp world I mean it would suck if Coinbase got hacked it would it would drop Bitcoin or crypto in general back five years I think in terms of people's psychological trust because they don't understand that Bitcoin is it's only thing I remember when about Gox went down everyone was saying the CEO of Bitcoin stole everyone's coins because people we have to not forget that we are very different in the fact that we know a lot in this space the general the person that spends a couple of you know 20 30 minutes on Reddit on Twitter and crypto Twitter every day understands the vastly more than the normal person who will see crypto as extremely dangerous things so it's more but for me it's really really important that we have more and more companies in the space doing doing things especially when it comes to custodianship but isn't isn't it great how you've got someone so someone like Jack Dorsi who keeps it simple and he can educate people he will educate people in a in a simple way he'll say this is what Bitcoin is and this is you know maybe why should buy it or you shouldn't buy whatever and this is how you look after your Bitcoin and that's that it's that honestly that that that interview with him on that foundation is it's so good he talks about when he first came up with Twitter and how originally he kind of came up with the tack for it and he experimented with with himself I think in like I think it was in New York he was doing it and he was able to send and receive messages and things but he realized the world was kind of what he told his friends about his show people but they were too interested and he realized the world was wasn't ready and he was in his I think in the interview he says something about you know just being able to shelve ideas until it's time you know I think it kind of pinpoints his patience like you say when you go to you get these b2b people coming up to you and they're trying to constantly sell you stuff all the time you know it's really just distracted and thinking missing opportunities whereas he's a sort of person you can kind of cut the bullshit focusing on the on on on what's important and then keep it simple and then design things simply so it's absolutely perfect exactly who you want you know spearheading a company like that it's quite yeah fantastic and then just going back to what Josh was saying about when mount gocs was hacked a lot of people would come to you say how can this happen I thought bitcoin couldn't be hacked and there's this whole separation between and exchange holding your private keys and the bitcoin network which is sending bitcoin across it the bitcoin network was fine but this exchange mount gocs that's holding your private keys that was hacked and I agree with Josh we aren't rooting for coinbase to be hacked by any reason but all of these things are fallible they're all built by men and if it's not hacked from the outside it'll be hacked from the inside there's too much money there they were just bragging about how they had a billion dollars in coinbase if they get zapo 2 hopefully again they'll use zapo's good security use the Swiss vault make it very secure but even Binance got hacked recently for their hot wallet and there was a lot of money in their hot wallet I forget the numbers right now but a lot more than you'd think for just a hot wallet hat go ahead so coinbase coinbase said it was a billion is it they they they control they take care of you know because even it was a billion I don't have the number right here yeah well there we are I mean like I said before for dupatis 300 billion so that's the scale in which they work out you know so if we have you know just a couple of percent of their clients money in bitcoin that'll be good yeah and coinbase's billion is presumably mostly already in bitcoin there is fidelity it's sitting there as filthy toilet paper bitcoin or Brian Armstrong's favorite ethereum moving on to issue 4 issue 4 copyright denied a legend Satoshi Nakamoto Craig Steven Wright was back in the news again this week attempting to copyright the original bitcoin white paper and the code that followed it he announced the inempt attempted copyright in a press release that was picked up by coin desk and several other bitcoin news outlets the claims like many other claims made by Craig Steven Wright later turned out to be false as the US copyright office released a statement saying that they have not officially recognized anyone as the inventor of bitcoin claimed such as the one Craig Steven Wright made can be filed by anyone with 55 dollars in an internet connection Josh Gagala does the fact that Craig Steven Wright is filing copyrights on bitcoin which are then accepted but not accepted make you believe more in his claim that he is the one true and only Satoshi Nakamoto remember to say allegedly and so forth he's quite litigious yeah i mean just sign the keys dude if you really are just sign it you know i mean if you sign it i'll be 99% sold and 1% thinking that you stole them but the 99% would would be like yeah all right Satoshi is a prick proof of prick Ben from Wales go ahead yeah no so i looked up so the definition of fraud dictionary definition definitions is a person or thing intended to deceive others typically mind justifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities so yeah i mean he said that he was Satoshi and then he gave very complex evidence but you know which most would would would convince most people but you know within a few hours of being picked apart on the bitcoin reddit they were able to just you know completely falsify his evidence it's not evidence at all and then he didn't he wasn't able to sign you know Satoshi's stash so so yeah you know the likelihood is he's not Satoshi he needs a fraud so Craig is a fraud you know it's it's it's by definition he's a fraud allegedly allegedly a fraud no allegedly he's a fraud trying to defraud people because he he's intentionally saying that he's Satoshi when he's not been able to prove that he's Satoshi he's going out of his way to convince people that he he was involved in the creation of bitcoin so they'll then buy his you know bullshit verified coin so it's it's it's it's it's it's the worst character in bitcoin is actually awful and why you know he tried he even thought that he could copyright you know because he wasn't just the the white paper he's trying to copy right the software as well and you put in this claim for that and why he even thought he could you know it copyright MIT free and open source software is is beyond me he's a lunatic but it's just it's just it's it's it's it's just posturing in order to to to pump bags and uh you know if if if if if he wrote it like why why would he not copyright it beforehand why did it take him 10 years to do that um let's suppose he's like busy getting all those PhDs but like yeah absolutely he drives me completely and utterly insane um so yeah I mean like you know Christ come after me like he can sue me if he wants like I live in the UK he lives in the UK he publicly embarrassed the BBC by you know using them as a as a as a way of uh before his evidence that he was Satoshi and then having them pretty much back up that claim with one of their technical reporters uh he's publicly embarrassed the BBC as soon as he goes to court in the in in in Britain any UK judge which looks at it will just turn to pieces so yeah I look forward to when he actually does go to court against somebody particularly if it's in the UK I mean I would say the BBC embarrassed themselves really there oh they don't need to be embarrassed but exactly like they're so good at embarrassing themselves they don't let it need someone else to come along in embarrassed them you know I mean what I find funny if I can just quickly add what I find weird about this whole thing is he'll say I don't need to sign them I don't want it's like you showing would you show everyone your bank account it doesn't make any sense because by saying you're Satoshi everyone knows your bank account you have to prove it you can't say it and then say no no I don't want to show anyone my bank account it doesn't work like that and no it's not that he didn't sign the keys he pretended to sign the keys to start with he he faked the key signing with a nonsense and uh and it was it was a extremely complex nonsense to bamboozle people which is a big fan of he's a big fan of the old bamboozle uh technical babble um just sign the keys mate just sign them if you just get on with your life and sign us stop embarrassing yourself uh if you can't think there's the door what's great though is that you know traditionally um the psychopaths would take control of this sort of market and they would you know the the ones with the big bags and the big stash and they're able to you know um uh commit to lies like that um would be the ones who take control of markets whereas they're him and others have other other people in you know haven't been able to take control of Bitcoin which is why they had to fork away um um so i just i love that fact you know i love that fact and but he's still sort of hoarding us um uh but you're right like yeah he's he's just a fraud he's a fraud Greg writes a fraud that's a great point that Ben made if Bitcoin was a traditional company all these outside forces who've been enriched uh Craig Steven Wright Vitalik Roger Vera uh Gahan Wu uh bitman they could have just bought Bitcoin the company they would have bought Bitcoin the company acquired 51% and unlike a 51% on the Bitcoin network 51% in a corporation under normal bylaws gives you total control uh so Vitalik Craig a combination of them Roger anyone else who has this giant bag of money could have just bought Bitcoin but because of the way Bitcoin's built as an open source project with only the programmers having control and even then only over the code if the miners refuse to adopt the updates from the programmers they lose their control uh this is un well so far it's unbreakable uh by traditional money and influence uh we'll have to see if that lasts uh to go back to what Ben was saying uh Wright did this allegedly I believe uh to get a great headline to get that Bitcoin was copyrighted by right headline to get it into the coinbase anybody who published the headline they're the ones that got worked they're the ones that got played did you see the coin the coin geek uh article on it when it came out it was like that the headline was um uh Craig Wright uh uh uh approved a statoche or something gets copyright Craig Wright gets copyrighted over white paper because he's statoche it was honestly such awful propaganda well and the copyright the copyright office in the United States is not in charge of this we don't have a statoche approval process we don't have any kind of thing for an anonymous person you can't just the copyright office doesn't prove if you're anonymous or whatever they don't take those claims and that's what they said in their uh denial additionally someone else copyrighted it in 2016 uh and I was surprised uh that Ben knew what B.S.V stood for uh he really had those initialisms down really good there uh so uh anymore on this you guys want to move on to the exit question Ben you might have a little more just bullshit verified you know that's that's B.S.V it is verified and uh they put in a blockchain that's how you can tell uh exit question when will Craig Stephen Wright stop claiming that he is the tochi Nakamoto Josh Skigala made the guys balls deep he can't uh you know he can't get out now it's kind of like Roger Ver there's it wants you know Roger so deep in Bitcoin cash that he even if he realizes I don't think he could go back and um you know I don't I think I believe Roger actually believes in bigger blocks I do that that's he's just really super passionate about that he thinks it is that's the wave uh of scaling whereas um uh and and you know go maybe he's right we don't know let competition you know bring it out but don't go around fooling people into which which coins which or try to trick people that's uh my thing I I think uh Craig is too far in I think he'll go down with the ship um oils or he'll sign the key I don't know I mean I I don't have enough time and to to look at all this crazy weird evidence that's just so weird uh four and against it just does my head in just sign the key if if you are and if not then whatever leave or don't talk about it I agree with Josh here if you're right and your coin is technically superior it doesn't matter if it's called B cash or BSV or BTC you don't need to try to steal the ticker symbol of the other coin you don't need to steal the name of the other coin they could have called it big block coin uh BBC and they go really far with it uh there's not even anyone else using that initialism Ben when will he stop claiming he's Satoshi yeah no you you you you you let me get back to just what you just said then you're dead right and that is that the one of the world's biggest problems in free markets and in governments and it's just psychopath people who are willing to not play fair you know and willing to cheat and to lie they they have a real one up on normal you know moral people um what the moral morality is so those people who are willing to lie and cheat and and do things like you know take the the try and take the name of of another product and try and confuse people into thinking that you know what you've created is is that product um they're the people who traditionally would have to keep control and get control of the system but in Bitcoin they're not able to get control and that's what's absolutely fascinating fantastic and and Josh is also right that he's bald steep he's too far gone like he's you know he's in that school playground telling all those are the folk parents in that posh British school for his kids go to and he's saying to them all you know yeah Bitcoin SV Bitcoin SV he's told all his makes Bitcoin SV and all his rich may support it and then he's he's got this like you know rich guy he's got big bags and a lot of money from sort of gambling and things and he's probably not the sort of person you want to annoy and he's he's he's heavily invested in Bitcoin as a BSV bushy vera I don't know what the rest of it stands for bullshit verified um so uh he's he's he's too far gone he can't he can't turn back and he can't admit just for those those dumbass you know number 150 people around him uh it would it would we had to move from Australia to the UK so you'll just have to move them from UK to somewhere else I guess um so uh yeah never you know that he's gonna go down with the ship you know the correct answer is never he never stops claiming that he's Satoshi Nakamoto never uh now we're heading towards the end of the show it's time for predictions or a story of the week uh Ben are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week yeah so the the prediction is that um we're gonna have the uh the lightning hack day um and that's coming up in Munich and it's gonna be absolutely fantastic that's on June 21st and 22nd um so yeah that's that's uh that's next weekend um so really psyched about that build some cool stuff for it can't wait for it um if you're in the area then please do go it's like five euros if you power on lightning to go so that's how much conference tickets should be um and it's very much an environment of making a building stuff which is which is great um so uh this week as well um I also launched Chikawatt um because I've got a huge box of two thousand uh by bitcoin stamps behind me um and there's only so many I can give away at conferences to people and bitcoin groups when I go to uh beat more bitcoin meetups when I go to bitcoin meetups so it made sense to make a little little shop and it's also a cool way of like showing um open notes uh WordPress plugin uh WooCommerce plugin which is really neat um how easy it is to accept bitcoin and um lightning payments on your website so uh so yeah so launch Chikawatt um had my first order for it yesterday looking forward to get some more orders for it um uh this week and then um sending those out sending some of those bitcoin stamps out um and uh yeah looking forward to the lightning hack day lots of building being in thought uh uh uh uh uh uh uh gotta do a lot of work before before the oh yeah no this is what I'm doing in fact in two days time for any of you out there who know who Alan Cox is of linux um he was like I was gonna say it's a Steve wasniac but the in linux they're all Steve wasniacs um he's a very important dude at the beginning of linux I'm going over to his for for dinner uh on Sunday in a few days um and I'm taking a whole load of uh I'm taking my my raspberry blitz lightning node I'm taking um my point of sale device oh nice man I'm taking um uh yeah a whole bunch of gizmos and the sweet machine um uh over to his and I'm gonna he knows a little bit about bitcoin but he doesn't know too much about bitcoin um so I'm gonna go over to his and I'm gonna I'm gonna uh demo all that stuff to him so totally psyched about that uh really important dude and um uh hopefully gonna try and grab an interview with him but he is like you know he's this he's he's he's he's he's he's pretty important so I don't know if I don't know if we'll agree to or not we'll try and bribe him with some bitcoin stamps all right and check out Ben's store at jiggerwhat with a j j i j w a t t dot c o dot u k I guess I don't know it's hiding it all right just c o okay cool all right and uh Josh from vault or do you have a story of the week or a prediction go ahead oh yeah I just wanted to also say the former lightning network hack day but uh it just a quick correction it's not the 21st of June it's the 1st of June and the 2nd of June um sorry Ben but uh just um just to correct you on that one and um and yeah I'm I'll also be there uh I'm super super excited about that um will be uh we'll be there and some of the stuff I've been talking with Jeff from fullmo uh who's organizing the event and some of the stuff that will be there looks absolutely amazing there'll be some stunning cutting edge uh bleeding edge stuff down that way so I'm really really looking forward to seeing what they do I can't give away what they've got coming but it's uh I can't wait to show everyone and I hope to get some interviews down there as well uh with some of these developers that are really finding amazing use cases and also developing the lightning network out to a point where it's really usable because right now it's still very very it's still kind of tricky it's not very very hard uh it's getting easier by the day and um uh for the for the layman and uh I really can't wait until it's uh you know easy enough for uh for the world crypto network to have a lightning channel in real time that sounds very cool Josh and we've got a lot of uh travel information here I was trying to get the uh webpage up for the lightning hack day uh there it is okay so yeah I just wanted to show that uh here we go that's uh lightning hack day dot fullmo dot org uh like Josh said it's uh June 1st and 2nd so it's very close uh but what I wanted to announce is that I'm going to Germany uh so I'm going to go to blockchain hotel conference in just a few days on the 30th and 31st of May uh if you're near SN Germany it's kind of in the northwest kind of near Amsterdam uh you should check out blockchain hotel conference uh sign up now with code bad bitcoins 25 and you get 25% off uh it's pretty cool uh support the conferences then I'm going to go to the breaking bitcoin conference in Amsterdam uh June 8th and 9th uh you can buy tickets at breaking-bitcoin.com support them uh then I'm not going to make it out to the lightning conference but I am making it to unchained-convention.com which is in Berlin on June 14th and 15th check it out Josh has got his past there he's already ready to go already to go yeah got the Bengies hey so check it out and just want to thank everyone for donating uh our goal was a thousand dollars uh we raised two hundred and forty six dollars and three cents uh so if you guys would like to donate we are still accepting donations uh the goal of these donations are just to pay for a kind of airplanes and uh some of the other expenses that we have when we travel uh remember we're traveling to these conventions to get more interviews for the world crypto network and you can check out those interviews right here on the world crypto network they're free but if you want to donate you can scan this QR code right now uh you should also check out tallycoin at tallyco.in it's a great fundraising website uh you put in your bitcoin address they give you a cool page it looks like this they can never touch any of your donations it's amazing uh but check that out look and remember every time you fly the bitcoin price seems to go up so that's right the mad tour uh causes the price with bitcoin to rise so you should also donate if you want the price with bitcoin to rise uh it looked like it ticked up just a little bit right there while the fundraisers are on screen i thought we had a donation uh but it's actually just bitcoin donating uh also continuing to go uh well because i know you i know you're very modest but let me mention as well that this is this is the concept of tallycoin was in fact your concept which was mentioned on on on on on one on one of your shows um and juer stars the you know the coin base you for years harping on about how coin base should be providing the same service which the cash app is now providing can just concentrating on that um mine you need to be a CEO like you need to be a big CEO of a big company one of these big companies like coinbase they just need to keep growing arms throwing out get you in there because there's there's there's there's the the ideas in that head you know like first uh the the cash app are now coin base at now tallycoin you know just keep eating the pro pro tip meastos the uh open source multi signature bitcoin wallet that's easy to use uh it's on block stack it's very cool and of course pro tip the uh web page uh browser that tips people uh that later a similar version to pro tip later became brave uh the thirty million dollar VC raising uh browser so yeah i'm an idea man my dm at and i'm great at delegating great at delegating it's so much easier than working uh also shout out to Howard Stern he's got a new book out i got all my Howard Stern books here on display uh you probably noticed that already in the chat uh by just want to you know give a shout out to Howard Stern especially this book if you're not into Howard Stern you think he's a shock jock he's too much for you uh this is the book to check out these are his recent celebrity interviews he's kind of softened a bit with age he's not just asking them uh what their penis is or anything like that uh he's actually asking them interesting questions and really kind of breaking them down and getting behind them and like what makes them tick so it's an interesting book and of course Stern's an interesting person uh one more time i wanted to share the donation address there it is again oh it's it's going up like crazy uh but we had a recent donation for 200 000 Satoshi's 636 000 Satoshi's 83 000 Satoshi's so five bucks 10 bucks 100 bucks 10 000 dollars you know you can send any amount oh the peer pressure has worked on Josh but he's here in the room drop out tree it's out of batteries it's that lightning network it takes too much energy takes too much energy that's what i say but oh there it is we got a donation it almost showed you that the tally coin does a little animation and everything look at that we've got nine donations we're 26.87 percent towards our goal and uh you can keep donating even if it's next week and you think i'm in germany or the price of bitcoins doubled because mad bitcoins on tour and you're like hey i'm twice as rich now because he went on tour uh you can keep donating we'll keep this address you can pause it here uh but that's about it for this show uh thanks again for joining us be sure to check out the proof of work interviews we have a new one coming out every Wednesday uh for quite a long time i've got them queued out in the future uh check out bends bit btc iot internet of things videos and check out max he's got a couple of great new tutorials he's talking about snore signatures and other really complex bitcoin things so check them out right here on the world crypto until next time bye bye