The Bitcoin Group, the American Original, for over the last ten years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Jess C from Dr. Orangepill. We are all Satoshi. Josh Shigall from thestandard.io. Hey, everyone. Welcome back, Josh. Robert Allen from satlantis.io. I'm no longer a russetlantis. I've never been a cheque before, but not this time. Jimmy Song from programming Bitcoin. Yeah, I'm also not really doing that. Those seminars anymore, I did open source it, but hi, everybody. Oh, check again, the beginning. We are hurried to rush to start the show. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one, the price of Bitcoin is down 3.5% in the last 24 hours, with a last of 90,000 to 28, a high of 93,000 519 and a low of 89,000 585, which is our top story. Bitcoin plunges below 90 K as AI worries, drag NASDAQ and crypto stocks down, as well as the fed cutting rates, not saving the price of Bitcoin. Jess C, what's wrong with the price of Bitcoin? Everyone's worried. I gotta say, I love, I remember a year ago, everybody saying the headline would be Bitcoin crashes to a V-Love 90,000 and it was a big joke. And here we are. So, you know, what are you gonna do? I'm happy to see it. Love to see it. And it's funny to see the fear and greed index going like to single digits on a drop to like the mid 80s. But, you know, whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen and we're gonna sit back and enjoy the ride, I guess. Josh Shagalla, they expected the Fed rate cut to save it, but no help. The price of Bitcoin is still 90 K. Yeah, it's interesting because the Fed rate cut, well, you've got a whole bunch of problems at the moment with the repo markets, just everything collecting, you've got Japan, you've got a, there's major issues that are probably orders of magnitude larger than 2008. And they will print the hell out of themselves to get out of this. And that's when, you know, Bitcoin was the hedge against inflation, like gold. So, this will happen because there's no other way you gotta kick the can down road or you gotta have a bit of a reset. And the reset isn't gonna be, you know, allowed to happen. But what I think will happen, the real question is, will the financial elite allow for a little correction before they turn on the money printer so they can gobble up some cheap stock? Or will they just print themselves out so that they're, you know, looking good the whole way through to the midterms? I guess we'll find out. It's been devastating for the shorts and the longs, Robert Allen, your thoughts on the price of Bitcoin. I love it. I love it when it goes down. I really do. Now, it's, it kind of just, you know, it separates the wheat from the chaff. You find out who's here for the right reasons and who's here for a short term, you know, trading and so on. So, it's, I don't really notice that much anymore. It's been, it's been like this for so long and the dips, like Jesse was saying, I mean, it was just 5%, it doesn't even, I don't, my heart doesn't even begin to beat, you know, irregularly because of this. It's just, it's just how Bitcoin is. It's okay. Jimmy Song, they say the price was supposed to go up after the rate cut, but it's still down. What do you think? Well, so my thesis has been that this is a max pain play and there are way too many Bitcoin treasury companies and, you know, all coin treasury companies and so on. And they are leveraged to the hilt and you can, you can see it in their stock prices and so on. As they, as Bitcoin price goes down, they go down like multiples more just because they're leveraged and so on. I suspect that this is the real play is that some of them need to get wiped out first before we go back on a bull run because there's just so much pressure and so many of these banks that lent to them and stuff like that. There's a lot of momentum on that side because they did leverage and kind of have to pay the piper at some point and it's not really about fed rates or whatever. There's just too much supply as a result of artificial money that came into that leverage. And we'll just have to see what happens in the future. We're moving on to predictions at the end of this show. Are you ready for, we've got all kinds of new chats here. Go away, AI companions, pop-ups, let's see. Here we are. We're going to predict the future here with the exit question. What will the price of Bitcoin be this time next week? Higher or lower? Jesse will it be higher or lower? Eternal spring, eternal optimist. I always say higher. Josh Shagalla, higher or lower? I think we're going to have a proper correction because under nine, it's been going up and above 90k for a little while. So I think unfortunately we're going to have a proper correction probably down to like 80, 70 if the whole market. I can't see the market lasting too much longer and the elite will want to buy cheaper everything, especially some of these tensor chips and Nvidia and all this stuff. They want to snap it up and start to realize the shit that they missed. Robert, Alan, higher or lower? Jimi, I always say higher. It's going to be higher. Eventually. Jimmy, song higher or lower? Statistically, you're almost always better off going higher, but I'm just going to say lower just because I might be siss is that you need some of this like chaff to get washed out first. We've certainly seen it go up and down wiping out the shorts and the longs, but we really have the true predictor Bitcoin price here, the Bitcoin predictor ball. Now will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? And it says very hard to read. It is decidedly so. It is decidedly so. So the price will be going up next week. I'm buying. Yeah. Moving on to issue two, the Swiss city that lets you pay for most things with Bitcoin. Lugano, Switzerland is now the home of Bitcoin according to the BBC. Shops and restaurants across the city accept Bitcoin, including McDonald's in a lake surrounded by mountains. Josh Legala, what do you think about Lugano accepting Bitcoin as well as Bitcoin acceptance generally? Is it catching on in the real world? It does, but the huddle meme is too large. I think if they accept stable coins, that it'll probably be used more because I'd like people to use Bitcoin more as payment, but they tend not to. They tend to use stable coins and that's rational. Because Bitcoin is going to go up and God knows the crap I bought when it was very cheap. It's the incredible moments, but at the same time, it is what it is. I remember the good old days when Berlin was the Bitcoin city because we had one street that accepted it all. It's basically if you can plug into something some large chain and use their their payment terminals, it'll drastically speed up any adoption. But whether it's stable coins or not, it doesn't really bother me. At the end of the day, what happens is that people start to play around with cryptocurrency and use it on their phone and actually use it. That's what would be good. Even though it's centralized stable coin, which is probably horrific, but is what it is. I agree, Josh, used to be all about Berlin or maybe the nearby Italian city of Rovierto, but now Lugano. Robert Allen, what do you think of Lugano and spending Bitcoin in person? I've never been to Lugano, been to Zurich. I'd like to visit. Yeah, I think it's great. I think there are more and more of these circular economy attempts popping up all over. I'm excited to be heading to Cape Town actually in the end of January for the adopting Bitcoin conference there. South Africa has got some good things going. They've got big merchants accepting. I think this trend is going to continue pockets everywhere and then you'll get places like the US with square terminal. It's gradually and suddenly, as we all say. I agree in square has been a great activation for the US. Many merchants just turning on the Bitcoin, but it's a two-sided thing. You have to want to spend it and they have to have to want to accept it. Jimmy, what do you think about Lugano and Bitcoin spending in person? Yeah, so I've been there many times and I have spent my Bitcoin there. Just to let you know, you can spend your stable coins there as well. In fact, I think the Naka people, that's like the point of sale service terminal. They accept Bitcoin, on-chain, lightning, and tether. So the way their interface works is that you have to go to this other thing and whatever. My take on it is that it's actually not that convenient and that's the big thing is all of these in-person, peer-to-peer trading or payment use cases have been trotted out all over the place. The only place is where it really works is where more convenient methods don't exist. Even cash is oftentimes more convenient than using Bitcoin. It's a nice story. There's a lot of merchants that take it. Other than the one week around the Lugano Plan B forum, I don't think too many people actually spend Bitcoin there. Even if you go maybe a couple days early and try to pay for it in Bitcoin, a lot of the merchants don't know how to do it. One year, I think they were filming me going to a pharmacy and just paying for some toothpaste or something. The register person said, I don't know how to do it. We can't take Bitcoin. There are people that will take it. Obviously, the people that know what value Bitcoin has, but the vast majority of people, it's just a novelty kind of thing. It makes for great puff pieces like this, but that's about it. Yeah, it does. What Josh was saying, you need someone like the cash register company to add it, having a square added. These kind of large adoptions are a lot better than city by city work, even though we don't want to downplay city by city work because who knows how we get there? And maybe city by city work reaches the guy who works at the cash register company. But go ahead, Josh. I got you off. I was just going to add to the Jimmy. We found that in Berlin as well. People would get all hyped up at the shops, but then one person sick or they leave the job or they haven't done it in ages, and then they fiddle around and then I don't know. I don't want to hear you. Just have these euros. It's always the same. But it's the same in a gold fair. I remember trying to pay for a piece of something, some sort of memorabilia with a piece of silver. And they'll like, oh, but it took like 20, 30 minutes just to figure out how to get the payment going because it was slightly over and you had to, yeah, and then conversion and everything else. It's hard. So yeah, to Jimmy's point, I think places where there isn't such convenience, or people do actually get paid a lot more in stable coins and stuff like that or Bitcoin. Where they don't have anything else, they have to spend that. That's where it'll happen. It's also hard to take down cash, which undeniably has gotten easier with a tap to pay, and then Apple Pay having the cards on your wallet. Let's go to Jess See. What do you think about Lugano, the city in Switzerland that takes Bitcoin and Bitcoin adoption in the real world? Yeah, it's sort of a piggybacking off of Josh and Jimmy. Yeah, what two things? One, it's definitely cool. And the second thing that I like about is that it's a really good reminder of how early we still are. People, a lot of us forget how we really are very, very early. And we're still like almost, I call it dial up modem phase and the whole Bitcoin ecosystem. So there's the one thing, you don't really want to spend Bitcoin at the moment anyway. So you're more incentivized to want to spend cash or stable coins for the obvious reason. The other thing is, by the way, in New York City, there's three places that I know of that take Bitcoin. I've done it there. I've done it, but at all the places as sort of like a novelty because it's fun. But I don't go in there all the time to want to spend Bitcoin. I did go to those places to support them, but I'd rather spend cash. And I remember going to a stake in shake when they first started taking Bitcoin. I was very excited. And my friend was taking a video. It was sort of like a Jimmy. I said, I had to, I tried to take with lightning and I had a node running off of my home computer like a Raspberry Pi and my node would crash while I was on vacation. I didn't know it. So I got a lead to the end. I couldn't even do it. I ended up having to pay cash anyway. So we're still very early. So that's the nice reminder. I think it is cool that it's happening and it's slowly becoming more and more. At some point, maybe people will want to buy just Bitcoin back and forth. And what strike is doing, I think, is great too. We don't have strike in New York yet. But from what I understand, with that, you can choose to pay whatever method you want to when the receiver gets it and whatever way they want to get it. So that's pretty cool too. And if that starts working out, that'll be really nice for the overall ecosystem. It is supposed to be money. And it is money, but it's like, it's still kind of to me more of a store of value. And I think for most people, probably is that. We are still at a very early age of digital cash where most people still have freedom with the traditional cash and with traditional credit cards. We could see a tighter system in the future where people have to go to Bitcoin. But for now, I echo the panel saying, mainly, you need Bitcoin for things that are in a gray area for paying for drinks at a conference, for paying back your buddies, for buying things that maybe you can't buy here or there. But for actually needing it in day to day purchases, it's easier to give cash or to tap to pay in Europe. If you don't have tap to pay in your card, you seem like a weirdo anyway. It's bad enough. But let's move on to the next issue, which of course is checkout plan B forum. As Jimmy said, there's a great conference in Lugano, Switzerland. We just want to give them a shout out where we're talking about Lugano, Switzerland. Also, check out worldcryptonenetwork.com. If you click on hosts on the left-hand side, you can find Jimmy Song in this list of many hosts. Check out over 95 shows with Jimmy Song on the worldcryptonenetwork.com. Probably more out there as well. But these are the ones we have tagged. Check it out for free at worldcryptonenetwork.com. Thanks to Jimmy for being on the show. Moving on, we also wanted to shout out to BitFest in Manchester that we just got back from a great Bitcoin conference and to BTC Prague, which we're thinking about going to not sure. But you should check it out in Europe. It's a huge Bitcoin conference, BTC Prague. It's a summarize issue three. Any data can be encoded as any data. One person spams another person's content. The power to decide what is and what isn't allowed is dangerous because it leads to censorship. It also leads to giving the developers power of the protocol which will eventually be used by someone else. Andreas Antonopoulos speaks out on the nots debate, citing pretty clearly on the core side, saying that if nots is allowed to censor, they will censor. Let's go to Robert Allen. What do you think about the nots debate in general and seeing Andreas Antonopoulos inject himself into that debate? It makes me a little sad because Andreas is one of the reasons, one of the first people I started listening to back in the day and one of the reasons I got into Bitcoin, I would say, oh him quite a bit. But I think he's intentionally doing so or just has been away for a while. But to try to say that any data should be on Bitcoin and it doesn't matter. If you prefer that it's transactional data and that's what Bitcoin was designed to do is to transmit money. If you have a preference for how it's used, then somehow you are censoring Bitcoin. I think that's really stupid. Basically, it's either just disingenuous or stupid, but it's crazy. Bitcoin was designed for a purpose. If you use it for something that it's not designed for and then say, oh, don't censor me. Don't censor me. That's crazy. Jimmy, song, your thoughts on nots and Andreas Antonopoulos entering the fray? I've said this in various blogs that I did a couple months ago. But I really do think there's a left-right component to this. I think we all know that Andreas is more on the left. I think this is why he's kind of come down on the side that he's done. There's a lot of things wrong with what he said, including that one person spam is another person's content or something like that. No, it's a monetary network. I think we can identify what's spam is. It's not this very relative, you'll be for all where anybody can put in anything. I think it's right to keep it a monetary network and not turn it into a shakuin-like ethereum. So that part, I mean, that's not to say that I don't like Antonopoulos. I'm very grateful, for example, that he recommended me for O'Reilly before I published that book and he was instrumental in a lot of his early stuff. But honestly, this take isn't original and it's what the core devs have been saying. I still don't understand why it had to go to 100,000. The default had to go to 100,000 bytes or why there were multiple op returns or why they decided to change the minimal fee to 0.1, SATs per VBite. None of those things seemed justified to me and none of those things seemed reasonable to me. Those are the questions that I've had long discussions with. I don't know if you've checked out any of me and Tones series on this, but there will be more on that coming in the future. But yeah, I don't agree with Andreas on this. It does seem like he might be saying that Bitcoin is also a data network sending around the transactions. So if you're attaching data and then you're paying for the data, if you paid for the data, then it's not spam. And then we don't have to have the developers censoring things, which like you said, could lead to abuse. Jess, see Dr. Orangeville, your thoughts on Andreas Antonopoulos' take, as well as the general nots debate? All right, so I'll start by saying I'm not a coder and I don't go that deep into coding a Bitcoin. So, but having said that in a very general sense, I probably would be a little more on the left of this one too, simply state thinking that Bitcoin's open source. I mean, it's just the people's network. I mean, whatever it's going to, if it gets through, if it's working and the system's not going down and people can prune from what I understand. So you don't have to accept the trash if you don't want to. And if most people decide they don't want to accept the trash, you'll just prune it out and it might only live on three nodes or something, you know? It'll be a choice of the people that are running the nodes as a choice of the people that are sort of managing the network and are saying so in that sense, I'm willing to just kind of sit back and let it happen and see whatever happens is not going to have to assume as the right thing. You know, I wasn't around for the fork wars, but in that case, I would have had to say the same thing, like whatever happens in the end, that's what was supposed to happen. I can't go beyond that. So I don't like the idea of it. I think it's kind of silly in a lot of ways, but you know, I mean, it's like he said, if it is to me, trash and probably most people trash, like I don't want people to put like it would obviously don't like there. You could who knows what kind of shit you can put on. I don't know exactly how it works. You attach a JPEG to once the tosy or something and then and it has an extra message to it and you send that around like an NFT. It sounds ridiculous. You know, use one of the other, you know, shit coins, whatever for that. But if that's not what you're going to do and if it's within the rules of the protocol, then you know, that's just what it's going to be and I'm not going to I'm not going to go to war over anything. I mean, I just I use Bitcoin. I love it. I it works as long as it keeps working, you know, I think it's just going to be what it is, you know, and I'm open to it like that. And it's sort of libertarian sense, I guess you could say. It does seem like part of the core argument is that ordinals and inscriptions are kind of jammed into the side of the code. If they enlarged opportune, people could store them properly in the code as Andrea is saying, we could then prune them off, not keep them with the main blockchain. Maybe this is a debate about nothing. The data exists, but no one ends up carrying it around. So is it really part of the block you have to, you have to, if you want initial block download and you want to verify stuff, you, somebody needs to supply it to you. So that's kind of like the pruning argument isn't really there because you, you still need to bootstrap new nodes and things like that. You can't just ignore it. Those are all parts of the validation of a transaction. The signature is over the op return field among other things. So it's, you need it. You can't, you can't just ignore it. That's, that's, doesn't work that way. So in that case, when it extends the number of gigs of the overall chain or something like that, it would, it would, it would, it would, no, no, I mean, there's still a block size limit, but you can't just say, oh, you can prune it away. You, you need people to keep that data. Otherwise, you can't validate the whole thing. That's, that's just sort of like going against the ethos of Bitcoin. You need to verify not trust and for verification, you need all of the data. And if you don't have, if not enough nodes carry that data, then it gets easier to subvert, right? So it's, it's, it's not a great argument. Oh, like those that don't like it can prune it away. That, that, that doesn't, that doesn't carry water from it. It does seem like Andreas is arguing maybe for a second level on top of Bitcoin, but that's not great. It's, it's Jimmy saying you'd still have to go back and verify at the initial level. If you do a, you know, ground up build of anything, and then you're testing, you're trusting the second level to promote that. So Josh, Shagala, I think we have lots of people disagreeing with Andreas on the panel today. Where do you fall on the Nights debate? Well, I've always found the spam debate really interesting ever since, you know, Eric Vojee's launched Satoshi Dias, you know, back in like 2012, you know, because he was massively blamed for sending too many little bits of dust constantly around because people were sending single sat into his, into his bedding thing. And then it was sending lots of sat back out. It was just spamming the network and it was, it was fascinating because here we have a protocol that was meant to send money. And it was, you know, to Jimmy's point, I don't know if people know what spam is because the debate is, if you pay for it, then, and it's, and it's allowed by the rules, then it's, then it's fine. And I guess it comes down to saying, okay, well, where do we want as a, as a community of miners and nodes and users? Where do we want this to go? Do we want to keep it purely as a store of value for larger bits of value and not for anything else? And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is to that. For me, I like the fact, like one of the things that I really like about Ethereum is being able to build decentralized exchanges as, you know, of course, decentralized is, is a very vague term in that sense, but it's more decentralized than a centralized exchange. And let's put it that way. And, and so the ability to actually not have to trust a centralized exchange and just do a quick trade with no KYC or no, and no nothing into some other token is pretty useful. And so, you know, whether it's, if you want to trade from tether back to Bitcoin or whatever it is, that you want to do, I think those, those things have a lot of merit and it would be good to see decentralized exchanges run on the Bitcoin network. And I'm not even sure if, because I've been a little bit poorly for a while with my health, so I haven't kept up with everything, but I do, I do find the spam issue really an interesting issue, what is spam? And for me, it came, the original argument was always, well, if you could, if you've paid for it, then it's not spam, because spam comes from people not paying anything and sending out billions of emails. And that spam, because there's no cost to destroying millions of people's inboxes. Yeah. Let's move on to the exit question, meta question, looking at the larger issue, and Dres, returning to the scene, finally taking a sand, something that we faulted him for during the block debate, back when he was more like Switzerland, suddenly on both sides of everything very neutral, now he takes a stand, perhaps part of his reputation was that he didn't take stands, he stayed out of politics, now he's taken one. Do you think it was good for him to return, especially so late in the debate? We'd already talked about this issue and over it over, I didn't want to bring it back, but it is, and Dres, talking about it, Robert Allen, what do you think? Was it good for Dres to check in? And again, he is expressing his opinions, his views here. Yeah, I mean, he's kind of become irrelevant to Bitcoin in recent years, so I don't really know if it makes that much difference what he says, he's kind of moved on to Ethereum and whatever else he's doing, so, but I mean, some people will listen to him, I guess. Jimmy, song, what do you think about Andreas coming back? Well, I mean, the thing is he hasn't been around for a while and he hasn't been on these shows and stuff, and the thing is we've had multiple cohorts of new Bitcoiners that have come in since then, they don't know anything about him, it's the old Fogies here, right? The OGs here that know about him, not really anybody else, and I don't think we're really getting influenced by him at this point, so I like kind of agree with Robert, he's not really his opinion on this issue, I'm not sure matters all that much. It is hard to say that he has the same influence that he used to have, he mainly puts out tutorials, as Jimmy says, he mainly stays in kind of this Andreas sphere over there, I haven't seen much of, since he unfollowed everyone on Twitter, which I thought was just kind of rude. Just see what do you think about Andreas returning for this issue? I say it's just like your opinion, man, it's just a dude with an opinion. Bitcoin is too big for anyone person to mean anything anymore, I don't think anybody, I don't even think Michael Seller means anything really, when he says anything anymore. You need thousands of people to all sort of agree on something for it to, and probably tens of thousands, so like whatever, but it was an articulate argument for my, at least hearing it and not knowing the depth of it, I just thought, okay, it made sense, but what Jimmy said made sense, so I'm not saying either one's right, I'll listen to it, because it's useful for someone like me to hear both sides. Yeah, I certainly don't think that either one, either side would think less of him for expressing this opinion, it's a perfectly fair opinion, whether you disagree with it, but it is like, it's kind of like Linux in Linux, he can come back and say whatever he wants, but the project he's moved on, it's not like the Bitcoin core where they have control of the repos and they can change the code, Andreas can't change the code, he can advocate for it, but he can't do it. Josh, should go all the way to think about Andreas coming back? It's actually been a good, good question, I think. Yeah, I'm welcome back, it's good to see him, he really disappeared and I think it took a toll on him because Bitcoin got extremely toxic for a long time with all the scaling stuff and all of this, but then also, I don't know, I mean, he got very intense, I was very anti-vax through the vax, through that of, ordeal and he was pro and so I don't know, that whole thing really split a lot of people into the left and right camps, for some reason the left would write into vaccines and big farmer, I don't understand, but yeah, welcome back man and whatever, I don't care, I've always liked Andreas, I read him, I like, yeah, oh good, whatever. It is great to see him again and I do wish he was on this show and other shows, I always enjoyed him on Joe Rogan and kind of being representative of Bitcoin in the larger sphere, but like you say Josh, Jimmy was saying as well, we've kind of grown beyond that, we really do have professional financial people who go on shows and talk about it, other things like that, having Andreas, having a programmer type person is great, but you know, he didn't do it and I'm not sure they're even asking anymore, but let's move on to issue four, thinking about giving Christmas Bitcoin as a Christmas gift, read this first, how are you going to give it to them, are you going to give them a hardware wallet, are you going to give them the magic words, what if they type them into some screen somewhere, how would you give Bitcoin and a gift, and would you advise it to other people, Jimmy Song, what about Bitcoin as a Christmas gift? Well, I think giving people Bitcoin when they don't really get it is kind of a recipe for disaster, I know a lot of people gave away, you know, paper wallets and things like that, circa 2013 and so on, and like a lot of that Bitcoin is just completely missing at this point, right, it's just money thrown down the, thrown down, you know, a black hole or something, I still remember, I think Jeremy Rubin, who was, who's a core developer, he, when he was in school, they had this thing where they gave everybody at MIT like a hundred bucks in their coin, and these are very technical, very capable people, and most of them like just ended up cashing out and going buying sushi or something, right, like they didn't, they didn't, yeah, I mean, that's what's, that's what happens with people that don't really understand the value of it, so I would much rather have you give them something like the Bitcoin standard by safety and a moose, or one of my books, or something where they can understand Bitcoin first, and then once they're convinced they'll buy it on their own, and that's much better anyway, people generally don't value things that they get for free, witness like every air drop ever, right, it's, people don't like them, or I mean, people don't value them, they like getting things for free, but they don't necessarily put the value that we do on them, so I say don't do it, and if they show some initiative, some agency in going towards Bitcoin, help them out, but like, short of that, I really don't think it's a good idea. It is hard to see when people haven't been interested for so long, why they'd be interested now, maybe it's better to give them your advice and your time, teach them how to set up a hardware, while it rather than giving them one. Jess, see what do you think Bitcoin as a gift in 2025? So Jimmy's argument is very valid, and I actually very much agree with him, however, for the last two years, I have basically exclusively for my nieces and nephews, I love saying I'm going to give you 100,000 Satoshi, I just love to hear what, I'm watching her eyes get big, when they're going to get 50,000 or 100,000, and yeah, so they're over 18, actually even a couple that are under 18, I just said, look, I've got it when you are able to get cashapp, I'll send it to you. So I've given all my nieces and nephews pretty much Bitcoin for the last couple years, for Christmas and birthdays, and some of them still have it, they hold it on their wallet, and they'll check in every once in a while, or they're asking about it, such kind of cool, see it creates some curiosity for the younger generation, and some of them sold it, they told me, I said, you know, I told them what I gave it to, do whatever you want with it, it's yours, you know, it's money, it's your money, you can sell it, now you can sell it later, eventually you probably will want to buy something with it, it is supposed to be money, so yeah, I do do that, and I have fun with it, and it's kind of fun with me and my nieces and nephews, and we have cashapps, so I can just like, clink it right over to them pretty fast, and it's kind of fun for them to see, you know, load up in their wallet. So for that reason, you know, but like Jimmy said, I don't think I'd go around and give it to my uncle or anybody, my age, you know, for the kids though, I like to do it. It is neat to think now that we have apps like cashapp and PayPal, other things where you can accept the Bitcoin then, if you decide, oh, I'd rather have a book or a video game, you can trade it out very easily, used to be a lot harder to do that in a way you're kind of just giving the money, but you are giving them a chance at the Bitcoin, as you said. Yeah, exactly. Yes, Josh, Josh Shagalla, would you give Bitcoin as a gift in 2025? Like Jimmy said, I think we've given a lot of Bitcoin to taxi drivers and bartenders and people at conferences, and I'll bet a lot of it's lost. A lot to back up, Jimmy, you know, I gave, I always tipped my cleaning lady in Bitcoin, and then years later she's like, you know, she lost it all, and that sucked, and her husband was quite quite clever, like, you know, quite an intelligent guy, it was a computer guy, and yeah, lost it all because like when you give something for free, it doesn't, you know, it's like whatever, and it was really sad. I also given, you know, Bitcoin a way to nieces to your point there, Jess, and eventually, you know, she let her boyfriend at the time take care of it all because he was more techy, and then when they split up, he took it all, and then my niece has nothing, and it's me off. All right, what this clown took on the Bitcoin, I gave it, what the hell? And you know, it just like, yeah, Jimmy's spot on, books, education, understanding monetary systems, and hey, if they put it down, because that's also a chance, if they put that book down, rather than reading it, hey, you missed your chance, that's, that's fate. So, yeah, that's, that's, I'm with Jimmy on that one. Another nice gift as we come up on the holiday season is always seven habits of highly effective people, just a good basic, basic book, how to focus and do tasks. I also like getting things done and feeling good. And just, you know, basic books, if you give people, and again, like Josh said, though, it's so hard to give the person the right book, they still won't read it. They have to have the interest to go through that door to keep going down the path, whether it's Bitcoin information or just how to have a better life, how to improve things. And finally, Robert Allen, what do you think the panel, a lot of grinsh on this panel, not seeing a lot of Christmas spirit out there, Satoshi spirit. What do you think, Robert, should they give people Bitcoin for Christmas? I think it just depends on the person that you're, you're a gifting to, you know, if, if, they're younger and it's a small amount of money and, you know, they have cash app and they're not going to lose it, because they're not even going to have custody. It's pretty low risk. They'll probably either, you know, use it for something in the next few weeks or maybe it'll spark some some curiosity and then that could lead to something. I gifted, thank God for Bitcoin, actually, wanted Jimmy's books to all of my, yeah, all of my dad's brothers and sisters. He's one of 10. So nine uncles and aunts got that book. One of them got into Bitcoin. And this was a few years back. So, you know, miles may vary, you never know. I think it's good to try to help people educate people, you know, if you give a man a fish, he's going to eat once. If you teach someone to fish, they can you know, eat for a lifetime. So, yeah, knowledge is probably more useful generally for people. But even then, they may not read the book. So, we got one out of 10's pretty good converting anybody is good at all at this scale. So, a gift well given, I think. Let's move on to next. All right, on. Let's move on to the next story. We have some breaking news shared with us by Jimmy Song. Just this morning, Tether submits proposal to acquire Juventus football club. This is a major football team, not like the one that the guy owns near Manchester, whatever. This is one of the largest in the world. Tether has some of the most money in the world. This makes sense. This is a stable thing to buy like real estate in London or San Francisco. Let's go to Jimmy's song first. What do you think about Tether submitting a proposal for Juventus football club? This is this is huge like this is like the New York Yankees of soccer. This is a major American, so I don't understand the scale of what we're talking about here, but Jimmy, yeah, I mean, it is latest announcement here. Yeah, and you you have to understand how big Juventus is in Syria. They they've won like 30 titles and they've various trophies. They've been European champions. They've had some of the biggest legends in the sport play for them, including Cristiano Ronaldo for a couple of years way back when and they're they're really, really good. And I'm certain that this is at least in part because the people that run Tether are Italian, right? Like you have Palo, Ardeno and Giovanni and I mean, Giancarlo and so on and they they grew up with this. So to get a chance to buy it would be like if you grew up in New York and you get a chance to buy the Yankees, that's that's basically what this is. And you know, I suspect that it'll be really cool if they do. I'm sure Tether would be the main sponsor on their shirts if they do buy them. They might be that anyway because I plan their stand correctly. They're already minority owners. And if I believe they also sponsor Lugano FC, which is a smaller club in the Swiss league, which makes sense because you know, that that's where they're based. So yeah, it would be big news. I don't necessarily think this means anything for Bitcoin adoption. The the people that watch Juventus aren't necessarily looking to send remittances to anybody really like if you if you've been to an Italian soccer soccer game and I have, it's more like a religion, right? Like they they I still remember going to Napoli and and watching a Champions League match between Napoli and Iaxe and they play maybe like three, four times like ever, right? Like that's they don't it ones a Dutch team ones an Italian team. But the level of vitriol those fans had for the away team fans was I mean, my kids were watching. I'm like, okay, don't pay attention to the motions that they're doing because whatever it is, it's completely obscene. So Italian Italian soccer or Italian football, I should say is is a very passionate thing. And I suspect that this is part of that passion and obviously Tether has done enormously well. They're making billions and billions of dollars. And this is now within their purview of of going and getting the most successful club in Italian Syria history. And of course, they they've had a few down years. I think they're seventh on the table last time I checked. So they're they're not doing great this year. So it's a it's it's by low sell high maybe or by low and then keep it something like that. So I it's it's it's an interesting story. And I suspect, you know, they're they're going to pursue it. It's an amazing result for Italy as Jimmy is saying. It's like they're buying Ferrari or backstopping it. We heard recently that perhaps the genius act in the United States would force the United States and companies like that Tether to own and buy us bonds in the same way. Having an Italian company like Tether prop up Italian soccer is like the backbone of society, the backbone of civilization like they're propping up the Lincoln monument here. It's smart. And I also think it's going to be smart money. Lots of people make tons of money on sports teams, especially if Jimmy is saying they're buying it in a down market. I think this these are the guys where the field goes below the field and it like it constructs like a transformer and they have lights down there. And then they have the rock concerts or whatever on a different surface. This league is in a whole other world. It's probably like buying the Yankees and the Dodgers at the same time. Jess, see what do you think about Tether making a major move perhaps for Juventus? Yeah, super cool. I think it's really great. You know, my my thought is stablecoin. Normalizing stablecoins is a good thing for the overall ecosystem of all, you know, so to me, it's good for Bitcoin eventually. I think that stablecoins like you're saying are going to do a lot as far as buying treasureies and stuff in the United States soon. And it's going to bring in the killer apps. And I think whatever making payments easier, you know, maybe offsetting credit card costs. So being able to text people money, that kind of stuff, all the things you can't quite do yet. I think these stablecoins are going to bring that in and once they're in, then everything else is going to kind of start glob and onto it. So it was it's almost like the way chatroom started being in the whole internet. And people just started, you know, everything started piling in. So it's the beginning of the title weight. And we're watching in real time. So it's really awesome. It is pretty awesome. But I do agree with Jimmy having Tether on the shirt might not convert any to Bitcoin or even sell anything for Tether. But it does sound like a pretty sweet shirt. I kind of want one. Josh Shigalla, a stablecoins buy and a soccer team, are we in the wrong business or what? Hey, I think Pink Floyd called it with a new car caviar four star daydream. I think I'll buy myself a football team. And it goes down well. Yeah. You know, I remember a bit, what are they called? They've been for a Gallipi. What what? Some time they'd be a bit. They did the big football. They had the big football, the big stadium. Yeah, they sponsored one one college football team or one game. And it was supposed to be like a three or a five pack. And they backed out on the rest of the deal. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. You know, it's been slightly done before. I guess this is a major upgrade. No, you know, I'd fight a big upgrade. They own the whole team. It'd be pretty amazing. Yeah. Well, Tether made a very, very dangerous bet. And it could have gone very badly for them back. I don't know how many cycles ago it was, but they basically Bitcoin was tanking, it tanked all the way down. And they took all their reserves that they had in bank, you know, one dollar equals one Tether. And they just put it all into Bitcoin. And then Bitcoin started going up. And ever since then, I remember people saying, yeah, but do they have reserves? I'm like, yeah, they got reserves. Don't worry about it. They're well over reserve now. But it could have gone south. It could have gone way down. I guess they would have held through it because at that time, it was still pretty variant. It was still now. It was very in transparent. But now they've diversified into like government bonds and all these other things. So it's, yeah, but nonetheless, whatever football teams, let's go. Fancy cars, Sega Genesis, all of the things. I remember, Josh, people were all mad when an SPF was destroying the industry and they took FTX off of the arena. And everyone said, oh, crypto.com, you'll be next crypto.com still on the arena. And it sounds like Tether is going to be on Juventus, which again, these large companies are making large plays, not like SPF at all. Finally, let's go to Robert. What do you think about Tether buying themselves a football team? Well, I'm happy for Paulo. This is like a local boy makes good story. Feels good. Happy for him. It's amazing. Why not? I think it's good for Bitcoin. I actually do think that there's a path that people can take into stablecoins, understanding these technologies. And then especially as I think we start to see Bitcoin eventually on Tether and other stablecoins on Bitcoin through lightning payments and so on. So I think there's going to be a natural progression from one to the other over time. At least that's my hope. But either way, as far as I can see, Paulo is a Bitcoiner. They hold a lot of Bitcoin. They are doing a lot of good for Bitcoin, Erz and Bitcoin. So yeah, it's exciting. It's a great story. It has been incredible. And as Josh said, at one point, somebody made a huge bet on Bitcoin and I can't wait to read the book. There's going to be one of those behind the scenes, business books and they're going to be so and so suggested this. And then we made the move and everything was different from then. We have one more breaking story also provided by Jimmy Song. Terraforms Doe Quon sent it to 15 years in prison for fraud. The Terraform Labs co-founder pleaded guilty to conspiracy and wire fraud in August. I guess he didn't get the memo and hasn't sent his trump coin yet. Jimmy Song, what do you think about Terra Labs founder going down? We've seen so many other people pay the fine and get out of jail. I'm not sure what happened in this case. What do you think? Well, he pissed off a whole ton of people. And you remember Mike Novogratz got lunatic tattoo on his arm. I mean, when you get a billionaire to tattoo his arm, you know, you're in pretty deep. Honestly, he was never an insider. He was a scammer from day one. He misrepresented lots of other lots of things. In other words, he's not really that different than a typical shitcoin scammer. He just had the unfortunate, you know, I guess, luck of pissing off the wrong people. There were a ton of people all over the world that got screwed by him. And it happened in such spectacular fashion. I don't know if you guys remember the day that the peg sort of like decoupled. But the the Luna coin went down like 99.99% in like a single day. And there was this sort of like arbitrage play that all these bots were making. And he couldn't stop it. And it was it was just such a spectacular fall that I think a lot of the people got so pissed that they you know, they they were out for blood, particularly the people in Korea. And then you know, when he started like traveling around and trying to trying to dodge the law and stuff, I mean, that's when it was really over. But yeah, I mean, the thing is like he's not nearly the worst. I think there are lots lots and lots of people that are that also belong in jail that like Thomas said, like got away with it by by just paying some fine or whatever. But you know, this is kind of the world that we live in where if you have enough political connections, you can kind of get away with stuff. And it's sad, but rule of law is kind of dead. You you you don't have a fair justice for all anymore. You just sort of have, you know, people that you pissed off if they happen to be powerful enough, even if you didn't do anything wrong, they'll still kind of get you. And this is this is where the bad times come into play, right? We're we're talking about, I mean, you know, the everyone knows that meme of like strong times create weak men, weak men create bad times, bad times create strong men and strong men create good times. So like, where in that, you know, like bad times phase where there's no rule of law or I mean, there it's breaking down. Civilization is breaking down. And this is all due to Fiat money, honestly. And yeah, I'm glad that justice was served at least in this case, even though it didn't necessarily come about it in the best way. But at least it happened. And I hope, you know, much like him and SPF, I hope a lot of these other people that did scam. I think there's the one point founder that's in Britain right now. There's a Mishinsky maybe even. And, you know, of course, like the scammer of all scammers, Kragess, right? All of them belong in prison, you know, and I hope that, you know, maybe, maybe Bitcoin brings back some of that justice and fairness and back to civilization again, instead of these Nietzschean power games that seem to be, you know, ruling almost all of these countries at the moment. It's so hard to keep track. I think that the Celcius guy is going to be punished. Like you said, Jimmy, he used a lot of the libertarian language about how they were going to maintain the peg, no matter what. Meanwhile, I think that CZ from Binance is okay. He's paid something to somebody. Justin's son from Tron seems to be okay. He bought a banana and he paid for somebody. Ross Obrecht has been freed. We don't know what happened there. On the other side, one coin still on the run, that guy who scammed Mt. Gox and by scam, he pushed refreshed when he withdrew money and that sent him more money. So he pushed refresh a bunch of times like anyone would do. Doe Kwan in jail, SBF in jail, Samurai Wallet people in jail and that Theranos lady still in jail. But we don't know what's going to happen in the future. A lot of pardons seem to be for sale, really low prices, a lot happening. Jess C, what do you think about Doe Kwan and Terra Labs going down? Like Jimmy said, somebody's got to go to jail eventually. Someone's got to set an example for the rest of us to stay out of there. Yeah, well, I'll just quickly agree with Jimmy. That's it. I mean, what he said was exactly how I feel and what I believe. I think the biggest surprise for me on this story was that he wasn't sent yet. I was like, oh, he just got sent. So that was sort of the biggest surprise that he was even in the news again. But in the tattoo, every it always brings back the memory of the tattoo, which I just put a little smile on my face, which I don't know. I think it's funny. But yeah, I'll just agree with Jimmy and leave it there. There are so many scams and so many cycles. It's hard to even remember. It does seem like something from last season. Josh, Shagall, what do you think about Doe Kwan being sentenced? Yeah, I'm going to take another side here. I think it comes down to, in the crypto space, there's a lot of people trying different theories. Look, I was the first to call out this guy when they released their white paper at the big confi. I said, this is something like this. It says something like this will fail drastically. And the government's going to put on their superhero costume and come in and regulate the whole space because of it. But I think that there's, you know, people like the one coin scam, it's a true ultimate scam. They didn't build anything. They scam the whole lot of people. It was a Ponzi where they paying old people with new money. Not even paying them. I just putting a number on the screen. You know, outright horrible things of stealing money. Then there's people, idiots investing in shit that they don't understand. And then blaming the people. And so I don't know which side this guy falls on, whether he was just dumb and thought, hey, if you put your own shit coin to back up a stable coin to $1. Let's say they're 50 cents each. These lunar, hey, that equals $1. And if it goes down in value, it was just print form, you know, four of them. And it's still equals $1. And this is how it just doesn't work. But like a billionaires and large VCs thought it might work as well because they're also either stupid. Which I don't think so, but maybe I do. I guess what I'm trying to say is that some, you know, what's the difference between a scammer and someone an entrepreneur building a startup? The difference really is they both have nothing. They're both trying to raise money. You have to believe that one of them is actually legitimately wanting to build the thing that they thought they're going to build. And the other one from the get go is like, I'm not going to build any of this. I'm just going to tell them what he needs to hear. And you know, Teriluna's terrible as it was as shitty as it was was actually a thing that was working. And people were using it and stuff. It probably had a whole bunch of Ponzi nomics. And I'm not sure about that. And that's probably bad. But and for sure, the 20% APY, I don't know where that was coming from. And there was this. It's just terribly built architecture economically speaking. But I guess if I was the judge, I try to think, was this guy just really bad at economic theory and thought this might work? And then people jumped on it. And because they lost their shirt in an experiment, they now have to find the scapegoat and you go to prison. Look, Sam Bankman freed, total fraud needs to go to jail. One coin, total fraud needs to go to jail. But there's some people that are trying to build something and it's just that they're just stupid at economics. Are we going to try this? You know, and there's look at all the meme coins. They have literally no use at all. And people invested them and it goes down and they're like, well, it is what it is. But I would say the people that invested in Teriluna also need to take some accountability for themselves and say, I invested in total rubbish. In absolute rubbish. There was a reason why I never touched that filth once was because it for me, it was a obvious rubbish architecture. You know, I mean, I've been longer than a lot of people. So maybe that's, you know, I've seen it before with what Dan Laramma was building and stuff, these algorithmic stable coins. I'd seen it before fail. So maybe that's why I could see that one fail and I was didn't, but at the same time, I think a lot of people were so greedy to get the next Bitcoin or the next this and that. They didn't stop to actually learn about what they were buying and then because it turned to shit, you know, then they take the betrayal out on this one guy. I don't know. That's just my take. Take it away. It can be so hard to tell Josh like you're saying, whether they started off wanting to scam, whether halfway through, they figured out it would work. So then they became scammers, whether it was just a bad idea to begin with and they're not good at math. There's so many paths in and out of this. And then some of them, they even work. And I've heard this in startups where, you know, I get all mad because we can't automate things from beginning. And then they show these startups. There was one recently with AI and they of course claimed it was AI, but it was five guys in a back room typing in answers. And they did that for three months. They quote, bootstrap the startup. After that, they had the real money to buy real AI. And from them, they started being a real company. A lot of these, they think they're just bootstrapping and that they'll become real. And then they fail and they lose everyone's money. That's a huge disaster. But obviously, this guy lost the wrong people's money. Let's go to Robert. Go ahead, Josh. Oh, he's a lot way too much. Yeah. What do you think, Robert, about Tara and Doe Kwan finally being sentenced to prison? Yeah, I stopped following like crypto probably around 2018. So I don't really know that much about this case. I just moved to Bitcoin and stopped even paying attention to the rest of it, which I think has given me a lot of peace and satisfaction in my life. So I don't regret that. But I don't, I guess as I think about the last couple of years, what it feels like to me is like sure, there's scammers and people that are, you know, in the quote, crypto world that have done bad things. But it almost feels to me like the governments on the one hand have allowed these things to happen. So they can have these like scapegoats that they can then, you know, trot out and have a trial and pretend that they're, you know, keeping, you know, law and order and so on. You know, almost like let the kids play and have a little fun and we'll, you know, we'll put some of these people in prison. Meanwhile, like no one went to prison, you know, after the housing crisis and the market crashed. And you know, there's huge amounts of fraud and just huge corruption and, you know, people lost their homes and their livelihoods. So, yeah, it's, it like, I guess I'm just sort of like green Jimmy, like the world is so corrupt and broken. And so I think the powers that be just kind of let these things happen and then in kind of, yeah, it's like, it's like bread and circus. It's a diversion. You'll let's, and yeah, some people lose some money and some people have a fun time. It's the new casino world and, yeah, there's going to be winners and losers and, but in some ways, it is kind of sad that a guy who's, yeah, he's probably not the best dude ever, but he's not going to be with his kid. That's, that's pretty sad. And meanwhile, you got people that are probably, you know, orders of magnitude, magnitude more corrupt who are running the world. So here we are. It is strange to see who picks the winners and the losers and it never seems to be the very well connected people who end up as the losers. So maybe he just didn't pay his insurance this month. But we're running out of time. So let's move on to predictions or story of the week. Jimmy Song, are you ready with the prediction or a story of week? Maybe just what you've been up to lately? Oh, got it unmute. Sorry about that. Yeah. So the story of the week for me is this, why I don't really actually have a story of the week, but I will sort of rattle about some random stuff that I've been thinking about, particularly this whole thing about AI model collapse. And if you don't know what that is, it's this idea that AI trained on AI outputs, as it gets more and more training on AI inputs, right? Like AI produced outputs that are its input, it suffers something called model collapse. And this is something that where you'll see an image and it looks less and less real, the more and more it trains on AI produced output. And this is I think a hard limit on what AI can do because essentially what AI is doing is it's predicting the next word, but it can't possibly know all of them because there's just too much information on the internet. So what it does is it compresses a lot of it and throws a lot of that away, right? A lot of answers that are on the fringes that somebody posts only once or something like that. A lot of that information gets on away. And that's ultimately why this model collapse happens because you have this long tail of information. Now all that is to say that I think the same thing is happening in the financial world, where you have a form of model collapse where people are efficient, make things more and more efficient in a narrower and narrower band. And you get, you know, what the seem to love calls black swans, where these are tail events that are not accounted for because people optimize for those things. So that's just something that I've been thinking a lot about and I did have a podcast last week about it with a guy named Copernican, how it's also at an ideological level what a lot of people are going through because these AI models are not that dissimilar from how brains work. And unfortunately a lot of people train on 12 years of government education and we've had, you know, maybe five or six generations of that. And unsurprisingly, they believe really idiotic stupid stuff that anybody a hundred years ago would have said, you're crazy. How can you not know what a woman is? How can you not know that, you know, inflation is that stuff like that. So those are things that I've been thinking about there. That's not really a story. Although there is a story. I guess you can go look up Copernican, Urban Bugmen, I know Unified Theory of Model Collapse. So you can go look up that story. Now I think the real question, Jimmy, is, is the AI model collapsing in the financial world? I think a lot of people thought they were going to make a lot of money on AI. They made incredibly large investments and video and other companies to get this money. And now they're saying that beyond the $20 a month you pay for a chat GPT, they're not sure whether rest of this money is going to come from. What do you think about the financial AI bubble popping tension? Yeah, I mean, that that was a sort of like massive VC bed from newly printed Fiat money largely because they didn't have anywhere else to deploy it. And this how the VC's work. Whenever they see a hot industry, they just pour insane amounts of money into it. And a lot of it doesn't work out. And I suspect maybe there'll be a few companies that come out okay, kind of like the dot com bubble. But I don't think they're going to be nearly as productive. I suspect it's kind of like what you were saying. It's search engine 2.0. Just get better answers. I hardly use Google anymore. I just ask rock or whatever. Hey, what's this or whatever instead of doing searches for it. And that's so it's kind of cannibalistic in that regard. It might displace Google or Google might displace itself with Gemini or something like that. But I don't think it's this massive quantum leap that people are thinking. Those things are going to have to come in the real world like with modular nuclear reactors or something like that and not not any of this. Hey, we have a slightly better mental model or whatever. I mean, who knows though? I mean, it's possible that you take away a lot of bureaucratic jobs or something. But I don't know if there's too much money in that because they're all from the cantalana effect anyway. On everyone's heard that they're going to take your job away and they don't want that. But I agree with Jimmy, it's mainly I just reformat data from the search engine into a grid or gather a bunch of data combined it together just like with the Amazon Alexa, you mainly use it to turn the lights on and off. It doesn't seem to do much else. Let's go to Jess C. Dr. Orangeville. Do you have a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. Sure. Just quickly, yeah, as we exit 2025, we are talking about some good books. By the way, Jimmy, I'm going to rethink off your Bitcoin. I look forward to reading that. I haven't read it yet. So I'm going to dive into that really soon. And so I will mention a book called Thinking Fast and Slow, which is among other things about the way people think and human psychology. And one of the main points of that book or one of the very many points of that book is it there are certain things like playing chess or tennis or any kind of thing where there's set rules in the game even like doing Jim Nash because gravity has certain rules that as you do it, you get better at it. And so people think that people that study things automatically get better at them over time. But there's certain things because their rules are not formatted, you can't, you don't get better at. And those things, one of those most important things to understand is predicting the future. So pundits are especially bad at this. And also people predict like what's going to happen in the future with Bitcoin, for example. So for anybody watching this, I would just say it's a human psychological trick to think that anybody has some better idea about what's going to happen in the future with any kind of pricing or any of that kind of stuff. So the best thing to do is to kind of sit back and observe it and just sort of enjoy the show. Having said that, Bitcoin 150 next year, money printer gober, crash in October. There we go. Thanks, Jesse. Let's go to Josh Jagala for a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead, Josh. Yeah. Like Jimmy, I've just sort of had thoughts on stuff and not really anything else. But one thing I am obsessing about is what comes after transistors in chip manufacturing because transistors, we really reach the bottom. All we can do is really scale now and add two chips together and scale outwards like that. We can't scale down much further because of physics. But so I'm looking at other things of what comes after transistors. And I think it's a good thing for people to look at because it might be that very, very early adopter thing of being able to buy some companies that are doing R&D in this field. And that is photonics where rather than using electrons, you're using photons, which is a lot cooler than using electrons. So sending photons down chips and people building chips, they're a lot bigger than microchips right now. But still very small and memory can be done within the chip, which is really interesting with the photon. So not only can you send a photon down, but you can send different wavelengths, different colors basically down. So you can do multiple calculations at the same time on the same circuitry, which is also fascinating and way less heat. And the main thing that people are fighting is heat. That's why they want to stick data centers in space and shit. So photonics, the other thing is spin tronics and using the spin of electrons rather than on and off switches. So how the, you know, is the electron spinning left or right? And that's either one or zero. And so this is also a really interesting space after standard transistors. Yeah, so check out those things if you guys are interested in futuristic tech and what might come next. It's always good to look forward with a, where the hockey puck's going. I totally agree with Jimmy. It's been my concern for a long time that model collapse is something that was very real, very true. We, we, the only, the only thing we've seen in AI that's really moved AI forward is, is reasoning models. And if it wasn't for them, just saying, hey, let's just have AI talk to itself for a little bit before it sends the final message. If it wasn't for that, we really wouldn't have moved forward that much. Apart maybe a little bit of pre-training and stuff. Really, it hasn't gone that, that much better, we're seeing some betterments in AI because of the whole reasoning models. But generally speaking, we're not doing like, you know, GPT 2 to 3, 3 to 4 jumps anymore. We're doing like micro little bits and plus the model collapse stuff is very, very real. And, you know, anyone that jumps on the internet now just sees slop, slop after, slop after, slop, particularly in video. But, elsewhere. And it's, and I don't know, maybe there'll be a resurgence in people writing little blog posts and, and little, little enclaves on the internet where you, you can find real people's opinions about real things and, and wacky stuff again. I don't know. Let's see. I'd love to see a new handwritten internet. But then again, I would just think it's AI generated. But as for someone that enjoys using the AI quite a lot, but at the same time, things that's going to kill us all, I'm excited if they can't train themselves. That's one of the most dangerous points I think towards a AGI is when the AI takes over, starts training itself. We don't know what it's doing. It's talking in the AI language to the other AI's. If they're having problems with that, good. Maybe we can just slow down a little and do it in a slightly safer way, which I'm sure is impossible because people need money. And the first one there gets the big pile of money. But if only we could do AI safely and not destroy humanity. That would be great. I saw an old joke on Seth Myers recently. And they're like, NASA's number one priority should be not blowing up the moon. And it was in reference to, unfortunately, I believe the Trump administration wants to put a nuclear reactor on the moon. That is probably just an idea. But still, you have to get it through the atmosphere. You have to get it on the moon. It has to not explode at any of those times or it'd be a huge disaster in the same way. I'd worry about that as well. The AI being the same kind of disaster and so much. And also the AI just lying directly into your face. So often, I'm seeing it more and more now, not less and less, which sucks. Generally, you go to complexity, but complexity is only good because the internet still slightly written by humans. The more, you know, imagine you just go to complexity, right? So I'm questioning it links you to the source and the source was written by AI, which lied to you. So they just had a great video on that on Kirkuson, that science YouTube channel. And like you're saying, Josh, they had this old fact. And I want to try and remember it was like nine out of 10 to 10 dentists recommend this or something. And they're like, let's find out who the nine dentists were and they go back through the steps. And they're like, yeah, it turns out there really was a quote, but there's also this complete second line that now being adopted by machines on machines and it's just furthering the quote. And they think, yeah, if we look for this next time, we wouldn't be able to find the actual source of the fake quote is taken over. Yeah, I mean, this is what model collapse is is that there's a, you need new inputs. You need you need touch points with reality. You need actual creation and AI models just don't do that. And when they do do that, it's complete lies and like just poison for the AI training model. So already, I think there's their estimates like 6.5% of the web is AI generated. It's already at a point where AI companies have to, you know, sequester certain data sources to make sure that they're not AI generators so they don't poison their own data set. And this is going to be a bigger and bigger problem. I think that like, I've never believed that AI was ever going to be general just because there's no purpose or teleology, teleological purpose for any of these things. It's just code running and it's a it's a better autocomplete. That's that's what it is in the end. It's there are limits to this stuff because there's creativity that's required to generate new thought. And AI does not generate new thought. It's good at mashing up other things. I mean, they're they're using all kinds of weird techniques, right? Like if they want to know that to do math, they have like a Python interpreter in there for the code that they generate and then they interpret it and make sure that it works. And then and then they give like the math answer. If you're if you're giving sort of stuff like that so that they don't get these wrong. And it's like it's like all these like little one-offs because the model collapse or the lack of ability to do a lot of these, you know, fat tail problems is becoming more and more apparent. I think it just kind of gets worse over time, honestly. Again, it all links back to science fiction in fall or doge and hell by Neil Stephenson. He talks about a world in the future where they had a lie about one of their friends. So they're like, well, we'll block this out with 100,000 or a million other lies about you. And then no one will be able to find that original lie. It creates so much spam and dirt on the internet that eventually you need a real person to read your in-feed and a real person to manage your outfeed like your Facebook or your Twitter or whatever because there's just so much false information and it really is everywhere. And we're getting there. Yeah, I generated stuff. Yeah, just a quickly sorry, Robert, you keep on going on this, but what's interesting is to bring it back to the financial markets is that the entire S&P, all of it, all of it is being dragged up by these mag seven through the AI thing. And so this is why it's kind of like Teriluna. You've got a useful component. Oh, wow, it's this stable coin. That's useful. And look, I can use it currently. And so it can fool you. And I think this is similar to AI. It's super useful. It's fun. You can pump out a quick email to your landlord and why whatever you can you can do stuff. And so you see that and you go, this is really useful. This is the future. If this gets better, this is the future. Absolutely. And it's going to take a whole lot of jobs. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if we take into consideration, actually, it's way overcast, kind of like the dot com bubble. Plus, it's not as good as what you think because you start to see through the magic trick when you use it a lot. You start to see the magic trick if you use AI a lot. And then you can't like, maybe this is all a trick. Now, if those mag seven start to decline, there's nothing holding it up. There's nothing holding it up further. And sadly, Bitcoin is so tied to the stock market these days. Bitcoin will also go down. And that's hence why I went against the magic April today saying that if there is an AI correction, a huge one, then Bitcoin like all of them Bitcoin gold, all of it will go down in the moment. But Bitcoin will come back because the money printers will be turned on because politicians don't like to leave a bad legacy. And they will just want to turn the money printers on to save the flood of liquidity. And then that's when Bitcoin will go and gold will go back up. But in the meantime, there's going to be a correction at some stage when, who knows, but it's just bad. It's just inevitable. It's also worth noting that Time Magazine has just announced the person of the year this year is quote, the architects of AI. And it has Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, the CEO of NVIDIA, a CEO of Open AI and others sitting on an old beam like the old creators and Ironman up above New York City when they're building it kind of a classic cover. But not sure how that's going to turn out for time. They've had other questionable people of the year in the past. And Jimmy also sent in this is what model collapse looks like. So you can see the person starts out person on the left number one and eventually becomes the image on the right number five. Jimmy anymore on a model collapse that you'd like to say while we have this image up. Yeah. So you can see if you start with 0% poison and you know, never introduce any AI generated stuff even by iteration five. It's kind of okay. But even if you have like just 10%. By the time you get to the like even the third generation, it starts looking weird. And this is sort of what you would call in computer science over compression. Right? Like you lose just too much data and it's it becomes very much cartoonish and unreliable very quickly. And you know, I think we're kind of getting there, right? We're maybe you know, the poison percentage currently is less than 10%. But even that is enough to kind of make things look really, really terrible. The open the the internet archive will be worth so much more because it will be a snapshot of real data made by humans from 19. You know, they're already curating data sets and and it's it's interesting because AI companies have an incentive to know whether or not data was AI generated or not. So they they're going to probably start watermarking things or something so that they can at least identify. Okay, we can't train on this data. Otherwise, it's going to poison our our data set. And we're not going to get the right right models out of it. And you know, I we're we're approaching that real quick. And and the thing is it's like the open internet. There's just way too much data and so much of it is already poisoned by AI. It's too many people are using it. So I don't know. I I suspect that it's a lot like Fiat money where a lot of people get excited because you get like the boom that you did in the 20s. But you get you also get fed intervention and all kinds of depression in the 30s. You know, I like the excitement is essentially borrowing from the future. And in this case, it's it's the laziness of everybody that doesn't want to put in the work to write or code or draw or whatever. It is interesting that suddenly people are valuing human content. And now we can't find any many people have said the entire web will be fake soon. Everything on Twitter, not just the images, but the posts themselves. And it'll be almost impossible to find actual human content just because there'll be so much fake stuff around it. Let's go to Robert Allen for a prediction or a story of the week. And of course, I would like to know your thoughts on AI too. We've actually talked quite a lot about AI here at the end. Go ahead, Robert. Yeah, sure. So yeah, this is a pertinent topic for me. I married in Nigerian. I've been living in Nigeria now for a while, a couple of years. And I've been building a software company. I've got a bunch of Nigerian developers working with me here. And it's been a pretty amazing experience. A lot of good people. And we've been using AI a bit. But you know, it's I wouldn't I'm maybe not as pessimistic as Jimmy is on it, although I do think. Yeah, I think it's highly subsidized industry. And it'll be interesting to see. Well, and you know, what he shared in terms of poisons is also interesting is it possible that unless they can kind of like freeze some of these models, do we do we end up in a situation where we actually have regression in the utility? I do think the thinking models are more useful. Claude, son at 4.5 thinking is pretty decent in my estimation as like a junior developer. I mean, you can't just, you know, blue sky give it some prompt and get some amazing application out of it. But if you have decent architecture already in place and you want some help in augmenting something or like writing unit tests, for example, it can do a fairly decent job. So I think there's a place for it. But you know, you can also you can also hurt yourself pretty quickly. And I've had one thing I've noticed, which I'm sure is going to be more and more of an issue is I've had to fire two developers because they were pure vibe coding, like just 100% and very quickly I could tell that they were not thinking at all. You know, it's one thing to, yeah, use an auto complete if you know what it's supposed to look like when you're done, but it's another thing entirely if you are just, you know, outsourcing your brain. And so I think some people will be, you know, trying to skate or trying to, you know, kind of punch above their pay grade by using AI, but that only works until someone realizes that you don't really know what you're doing. And so, but yeah, and I think, I mean, I do, I feel like I'm hating the internet in general more and more because I do feel this gross. I mean, you know, it's interesting. I have a girl that's working for me who was doing some writing for me. And you know, she, she did an article, well, she, AI prompted an article and I knew it was AI. And I was like, oh, I can't stand this. This is AI. Please, like, go write something. Don't I don't want this. And then she worked on another thing and she claims and swears that she only used the AI to help her without lining the article. And then she wrote it. But I hated that too. And so, so now I'm like paranoid. Like, do I even know what's real versus what say? I like, you know, it's, yeah, it's, it's kind of gross though, because it does feel, it just feels artificial. A lot of it. And I think that it's hard to like explain that or to really articulate it very easily. But, or, yeah, I mean, maybe imagery, you know, imagery or videos is, is, is easier because you just have this sort of uncanny approximation at something that's real, but you really can still see even with the best, you know, videos that I've seen lately, I can still tell there's just something, you know, kind of gross about a lot of it. So, yeah, but so I think for software, there's a, there's a utility, you know, used, used appropriately. I think it can be useful and it can boost productivity. But and that's probably where I think it is the best fit. So anyway, we'll see. I mean, I guess for content creators too, you know, perhaps if it can help you get, get to your vision sooner, but is it really your vision if, if an AI has crafted it? And I guess you could argue that as well potentially for software. So, yeah, we'll see. It does seem like many things. It's, it's more of a tool rather than a solution like you were saying, Robert, you can't just make an app from a single prompt. And if we take this image that Jimmy provided and we think about this with code, if your code is becoming like spaghetti and you can't read it at the halfway part and then you really can't read it at the 100% part. And then you're going to try to interface this with other code or other developers in the future. Or even if we try to think just generally, and I know it's a simplistic thing about the AI training itself. If that spaghetti AI is trying to train more spaghetti AI, they're kind of talking nonsense at a certain point. Maybe it's very advanced scientific nonsense. We can't understand, but it does seem like we're making a copy of a copy of a copy and it's getting progressively worse. All analogies. But that's exactly what happened with Fiat money. It was a copy of a copy of a copy. And there's a there's an essay that you should read if you haven't. It's a hyper reality, I think, by bull reror or whatever, but it's actually like a literary critique of a story set in in Y-Mart Germany. But he gets into what, you know, copy of a copy of a copy. This is what is called the similacrum, which is ironically a copy without an original. And that's what Fiat money has become. And I think where AI is headed, right? It's a copy of something without an original, which is what it becomes when you iterate too many times. There's no spark of creativity. There's no actual generation of anything original. There's no purpose or anything like that. And it can't reason from first principle. So this is what we end up with. This is why this isn't this is not a road that you get to artificial general intelligence. Yeah, I agree. There's no AGI. It's not going to happen. And even when you when you read more like even watching CPG grays video about how AI reasons and it does like a thousand things and it says, oh, this one's good. Get me a thousand more like that one. It doesn't know why that one's good. It's just trying and it's refining and it's refining and it does seem throwing spaghetti to the wall. Nothing's going to stick. But then there was this other idea where they're like, maybe it sticks and becomes the monster that destroys the world, but also makes us billions of dollars. And you know, they want those billions of dollars, guys. You're bumming this is why we need more natural general intelligence. So go have children everybody. It's amazing. I'm so happy to be a dad. So really, that's that's that's where that's where it's at. Yeah. And finally, it's great again. And let's swing back to Jesse. We talked a lot about AI here. Just want to get your points on AI. What do you think in what we've discussed as well? You know, you guys are what everything you guys are saying is very fascinating, very interesting. Just personally, I use AI slightly, you know, I make I made a Christmas card with it. You know, I use it and it's now native to Photoshop and after effects and premier some of the Adobe programs I use. It's like incorporated in it. But, you know, I don't know what's good. I don't know what the future is going to be. I'm just sort of sitting on the side and kind of just observing because that's all I really can do. So this isn't everything you guys are saying. It's absolutely fascinating. But I don't really have much more to add. Yeah, it is interesting to see as I made my way to make this show. I was offered an AI product by Zoom. I was told I was getting an AI product by Google in my Chrome browser. I have open AI. I assist it use some kind of AI to make the thumbnail for the video. We are just surrounded in AI. But again, it seems any end. We all want that science fiction future. If the computer you can talk to and say anything, it's just not quite there. And I'm not sure if we're going to get there the way we're going, which is a potential financial disaster for those companies. But good thing, I'm not involved at any of them, although I'm connected to their economy in a much wider sense. But I want to go back to what Jessi was saying and just do some quick book reviews at the end of the show. I haven't finished yet, but I still love and recommend how to live safely in a science fictional universe. A great story about a time time machine repairman. You just know it's going to be great just from that setup. And as we talked about earlier, seven habits of highly effective people. Just a great self-help book helping you to focus on what's important and put first things first, be proactive, seek first to understand and be understood, stuff like that. And if you're interested in that, more advanced system would be getting things done, trying to manage your workflow and have more success. And if you're not feeling good, feeling good is a good book. The new mood therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, how to treat depression and anxiety without drugs. So just check those out if you're looking for some books. And thanks to everybody for joining us. We had a great discussion today. Welcome back to Josh Shagalla and Jimmy Song. I haven't seen you guys in a long time. It's great to have you on the show. And thanks to the audience as well. Be sure to give us a thumbs up. We do know there's an error. We weren't on the right YouTube channels. We're going to download and upload to the right one. But you won't even know you'll be watching. You'll get to the end. You'll be like, where was an error? I had no idea. But we'll fix it next week. I'll be fine. So thanks again to everybody for joining us. Until next time. Bye. Bye. Bye.