The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For over the last ten years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Arck from LNBITS. Hello, all. Good evening. Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Hello, hello, everyone. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. If institutions are buying, why isn't the Bitcoin price going up? Bitcoin price not soaring despite institutional billions. Why profit-taking and derivatives are holding it back with a breakout looming? Victoria Jones, why is the price of Bitcoin not skyrocketing and doubling in, or Ben Arck first, sorry? Why is the price of Bitcoin not skyrocketing and doubling and tripling? Everyone's buying. What's going on, Ben? Which one me? Me? You, Ben. You're first. You swish me through a couple. It kind of makes sense, I suppose. It is a bit weird, because the exchange reserves, Bitcoin reserves are an all-time low. And then you've got these big strategy type, treasury companies, who bring up all this Bitcoin. But there was quite an uptick, and then during that uptick, with all the Trump getting into office, news and whatever else. Everyone was, you know, they were all hodling and they were gripping onto their Bitcoin coins with an iron fist, crystal diamond hands. And now that we're going sideways, a lot of people are saddling, and there is a bit of a lot of sell pressure. I think it was like quarter of a million coins or something, which have been sold over the past couple of months. That's a significant amount. So if you got, you know, I don't know, strategies, hooping up half a million coins over the past couple of months. And then you've got quarter of a million being sold off just by general retail. I think most of these treasury companies are probably doing OTC as well. They're just buying over the counter from whales and things, rather than pulling the Bitcoins from exchanges. So it does kind of make sense. It makes sense that there was a lot of people holding onto that Bitcoin supply was very short, because everyone knew the price was going to go up. We had the halfening. We had all the Trump news, and then the price goes up. And then everyone starts dumping some Bitcoin to, you know, buy a house, do whatever they do when they sell the Bitcoin. So there is quite a lot of pressure pushing it down, but then there's also an awful lot of pressure pushing it up too. So that's hence why we are going sideways. And then eventually we're going out of sellers. And then the price will probably just take up. I know there's more derivative trading as well, but I think it already matters too much because these treasury companies, they are hooping up actual real Bitcoins. And their plan is to just hold them too. They might lend them out and do all kinds of things, but they're going to hold them. As we showed you from the article, the Bitcoin sellers are mainly one to five year Bitcoin holders offloading during the bull. And then holding on during the bear. They've also said they think a lot of Chinese miners from 2013 with stacks and stacks and stacks of Bitcoin are selling. And as Ben mentioned, the open interest of other Bitcoins and derivative such figures of Victoria Jones, why isn't the price of Bitcoin up more? Everyone loves it. All the banks. They all love us now. Yeah, well, I think I sent you an image earlier, didn't I have Bitcoin distribution? Because if you actually, if you actually look at that. This is something that I've put together for the Bitcoin starter guide that you can now get via my website. But if you actually look at this, the ETFs and the businesses are actually really a tiny proportion of the overall distribution of Bitcoin. Everyone talks about these companies buying big, big numbers. But when you look at it, when you look at their impact on the overall market, it's still pretty tiny. And of course, Bitcoiners who've been around for a lot longer know that this tends to be the point at which Bitcoin is reaching its peak. Obviously, we're not getting the dramatic highs like we've had in the past. But you know, in 2017, for example, it was very retail dominated market. And of course, everyone was going into a frenzy thinking this was the point at which the financial markets were about to collapse. And so everyone, all individuals wanted that Bitcoin. But of course, we're in a very different environment now. You know, at that point in time, I think a lot of retail investors were trying to escape the financialization of the world. But of course, a lot of these Bitcoin companies are part of the problem. And so them getting involved in Bitcoin is kind of taken away a bit of the magic of Bitcoin, I think. I mean, us pure as Bitcoiners understand where it's going. And we know that ultimately true Bitcoin will disrupt all of that. But of course, you know, it has yet to play out. And of course, you know, it seemed very exciting in 2017. And now it's not so exciting. You know, that kind of rebel spirit that everyone was buying into has been kind of like, oh, dammit. You know, we're now up against the big guns. And even though there are the few individuals who managed to get a whole load of Bitcoin right at the beginning, even though they're still the large majority of the holders, you know, who knows whether or not they still actually have access to that Bitcoin or whether or not, you know, some of them could be holders that have lost it, you know, in the UK, we've got the example of the guy who's desperately trying to find the server that ended up in the dump. But that's just a public one public example of it. There may be many many others where that has happened and they're too afraid to actually come out publicly and say that's what's happened to them. And so actually by keeping that a secret it, it, you know, it's supporting the market as well. So there are lots of things that are going on. But I mean, I think, you know, with a lot of the, a lot of the businesses getting involved, even though they seem to be buying large amounts of Bitcoin. They're also people behind the scenes you've held Bitcoin for a long time. And this is their opportunity to sell because they know that we're getting towards the end of that the higher point of the cycle before we end up going into a dip again for a few years, which will happen. It never seems like it's going to happen at the time, but it always does. Well, let's see Victoria to go through this chart a little bit more. It shows here the black number individuals holding over a thousand Bitcoin incredible whales. And then individuals also holding a thousand to 10,000 next little frame here. Then the large scale here individuals holding less than a thousand. Then there's the lost Bitcoin here. The to be mind Bitcoin, which is impressive to see how small the to be mind is it's really percentage wise, not that important on this chart. Then you see the ETFs, then I think this is Satoshi Nakamoto followed by businesses, governments and miners. So the ETFs are getting a little larger than Satoshi, but it is neck and neck there. So it's interesting to see how the distribution is going to work out between all these players that didn't want anything to do with this 10 years ago. And now are just dying to get in. I do think it's sad. We're going to talk about it more in the next topic. But the main thing I'd say now is the meme is that the retail doesn't know you can buy less than one Bitcoin. They used to hear Bitcoin was 10k. They'd say that's too expensive. Now they hear Bitcoin's 100k. They lose their minds about how expensive it is. Yet you could put a hundred bucks in. You could put a thousand bucks in. It will be worth more. Maybe it doubles. And like Victoria said that that rebel spirit has not reached the retail markets. They're not in a Bitcoin. They see it as something now for banks only large financial institutions that could hold something worth a hundred thousand dollars. Ridiculous amount to any normal person and to people who are already rich. They think that the people have already made the money on Bitcoin. They missed their chance. Yet of course we know that charts still goes up into the right. It doesn't seem to stop. So it's interesting that they continue to sit on the sideline and retail is not involved in this current up swing. Let's go to the exit question. The picked predicting the price of Bitcoin of course this could affect it the large amount of derivative interests other people trading paper bitcoins. The darkest word that Satoshi who hated the mortgage crisis created Bitcoin would have ever heard his paper bitcoins. Ben Ark will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week. And ironically the paper bitcoin could cause a future financial crisis which would be a real irony that the thing built to prevent financial crisis causes for financial crisis. Well it doesn't seem as stupid as he trying to do what it usually does up. I think we're going to be up higher higher. I think it would be beautiful and delicious irony Victoria Jones higher or lower and what kind of irony do you think it would be. Yeah I agree we're definitely heading for that kind of irony and you know I've predicted it several times you know Bitcoin is an irresistible force moving towards an immobile object where the immobile object is slightly less than movable than the forces irresistible and so you know it's inevitable inevitability but you know the timing is really what the what's the state here. But in terms of price yeah I think we seem to have done quite well this week so yeah could be on a good trajectory I'm going to say higher for next week. Of course as you all know the ball was correct last week the ball is correct this week the ball is correct every week and now what the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week. Signs point to yes signs point to yes which are you know the most accurate of all predictions these signs moving on to issue to Binance founder declares 0.1 Bitcoin the future American dream 0.1 Bitcoin 1 1 10th of a Bitcoin Bitcoin's worth around $100,000 right now so that would be about $10,000 invested. CZ from Binance declares this to be the American dream and the future of wealth especially now with the new report from the United States saying that housing authorities could allow Bitcoin to be used as mortgage reserve capital meaning that you could hold your Bitcoin use it as capital to get a mortgage IE a loan that you could use to buy a house without having to sell your Bitcoin. So that's the point of Bitcoin thus 0.1 Bitcoin is the American dream Victoria Jones is this true or people going to desire Bitcoin or do they still want houses vacations mansions giant yachts weddings in Venice. Yeah well I think you know most Bitcoins you understand how Bitcoin works recognize that it's even more desirable because it's about the fact that it's an asset that you can't make more of. So with houses I mean you know you can have a number of them suddenly destroyed in a war and you can have a number of them suddenly rebuilt you know the housing crisis the number of houses that are available fluctuates not just with whether they're created or destroyed but also with the population you know that also implicates supply and demand you know I knew a property developer just before the pandemic broke out who was investing in property and I was like what happens if the pandemic wipes out a lot of money. The pandemic wipes out a load of the population you know it's not going to properties not going to have the same kind of appeal because you haven't got as many people to live in them so you know and that's even accounting for things like holiday homes and stuff you know the moment we've got this manufactured demand where people don't just use homes as places to live but they also use it as a savings vehicle because it's been it's been an asset that's hard to replicate. Compared to the paper of the fear system but we've now got Bitcoin which is even better than that and the only reason why Bitcoin hasn't taken over as that sort of values because it's taking a while for everyone to figure that out so yeah I mean I definitely invest in Bitcoin over housing any day of the week so I even you know I tested that in my private life so yeah I mean I think 0.1 Bitcoin is something everyone should be striving for. Right now you know as a minimum you know just try and get hold of one as soon as you can. It is still shocking in 2010 this was an obscure software project and I looked at it and I was like well the people that got it or the dollar they're the really smart ones the rest of it us blew it and I also thought how are you going to convince people to get into this it's obvious that you know holding them is the big deal buying before dollar was smart we're all stupid. Then it went to 30 then it went to 300 and then by 2013 I looked at it again with coin base and bit pay and other companies supporting it I was like wow this could really take off this could be the thing and since then you just try to hold as much as you can but it's amazing to see of course CZ from Binance but the larger world recognizing it with the attempt to use it as mortgage collateral. Ben Ark what do you think about CZ's prediction 0.1 BTC is all you need it used to be 6.15 will get you hot babes or something but now 0.1. Yeah I remember back in the then the reddit groups is to be one in a million one in a million club that's when you had 21 Bitcoin gone of those days and then it was I guess it was probably one in 21 million or something and then it went the kept going down expectation. I think he's right and I think Victoria is very accurate there's been a systemic squeeze on all the avenues in which people could have normal people retail investors could have a decent return on investment so if you look at the housing market for example not so long ago you could buy a house do it up run out somebody and they get a good return on your investment like all these traditional avenues you would have to park your money in. You can no longer do and have the same return on investment and the effort the amount of effort you have to put into have a return investment out often out ways the money you're making so like I mean the reason for this is there's just too much money sloshing around the money print has been turned on. All this money splashing around capital needs somewhere to go so capital just explores all the different ways where it can make its own of some money by offering R a Y good R a Y and then all those pools eventually start to dry up and then hold does this thing which is the you know the fastest increasing asset which ever existed in history so that's where the capital will eventually go and it doesn't require that much effort and you just buy the thing and just you know hold it and it's probably going to go up. If you wait five years you'll probably be rich off the back of it so yeah it's it is going to go in value by quite substantial amount and if you do have zero point one then you know in 10 20 years time you probably will be in a very good position so it's wise words really everyone should have zero point one keep that to one side don't spend it at least obviously stack as much as you can. I think Ben is totally correct here calling out the previous large hold Bitcoin memes the one I remember previous was 6.15 BTC and as it says here the 6.15 BTC was also created by CZ who is currently pushing the zero point one Bitcoin meme the tweet was from CZ August 25th 2019 he suggested owning that just one Bitcoin would place some money. Someone in the top zero point three percent richest people in Bitcoin terms with only 21 million available CZ argue that even a single Bitcoin represents significant wealth and exclusivity enter American HODL a allegedly well known Twitter account who responded to CZ with humor and a challenge claiming that owning 6.15 BTC 6.15 Bitcoin would lead to eternal riches and big titty bitches. I go just another humor is fun. Like Ben said we're down to zero point one now we were at 6.15 we were really at one those what you saying and before that like Ben said 21 Bitcoin maybe 100 Bitcoin or 1000 Bitcoin if you're I mean American HODL is probably probably correct like if you're. I suppose 600 K now you just want to get to fear escape velocity where the average of the price going up outpaces your fear outgones and you can just chip away at it spending a tiny little bit to live your life whereas the and the average among which he goes up outpaces that when you continue to get wealthier if you get to that point stay there don't go buying your lambo's. And you big titty bitches. I do just think though that it's so obvious if you've been watching the show for a little while we've gone from a point where normal person could own one Bitcoin or as the meme suggests perhaps 6.15 Bitcoin to now point one is suggested so if we follow this trajectory the next time that CZ will tweet this will be in five years and he'll say zero point zero one would get really tragic is our recall spending that for drinks and. Maybe a magnet at a Kings game and a variety of other incredibly small purchases that would not be significant wealth but likely in five years he'll tweet that 0.01 Bitcoin is enough and that that would give you significant wealth so we'll keep an eye on this is the story develops moving on checkout world crypto network dot com we've got some shorts and some shorts and we're going to try to develop some more shorts at world crypto network dot com and on YouTube. We're going to issue three Texas ready for 10 million dollar Bitcoin purchase after governor signs bill for state reserve Texas is getting a Bitcoin reserve and they're going to contribute actively investing millions of dollars of the people's money into an unspendable Bitcoin reserve that can never be spent because it would be a disaster. Ben arc where let's go Victoria Jones what do you think about the Bitcoin reserve in Texas and can they ever spend it won't it be a disaster if the government spends the Bitcoin in the next year at doubles and then the next year they can't spend the Bitcoin how will they ever pay for any services with this Bitcoin. Well I think anyone who's considering the future understands why it's worth having some Bitcoin reserve because ultimately the fiat system that we've got at the moment is destined to fail it's a mathematical inevitability the only thing we don't know is when that's like to happen. And at that point you know once we get to the stage where Bitcoin has been widely adopted in that kind of situation the only funds that a government really has is any Bitcoin that they've held on to as savings and presumably it will have risen enough in value by then that it's actually worth something but I think the critical thing to recognize is that that point. You know the government's ability to spend is going to be much more constrained than it is now it's not that they won't be able to spend anything but they're going to have to be much clearer about their priorities and and the thing is you know as you've seen throughout history you know those governments who aren't clear about their priorities that's the point at which it's game over I mean that's how the Roman Empire collapsed you know they got to the stage where they abuse their currency. They couldn't afford to pay the soldiers anymore and so they couldn't defend their nation and it's the same thing with governments you know the way in which governments defend themselves these days is through the legal system and if they can't afford lawyers and if they can't afford to run the courts. You know the whole thing becomes a nonsense and it's no longer enforceable you know the world will operate in a very different way to the way that it does now and so you know understanding that it's worth having some Bitcoin and reserve it's not just individual. Who are doing that but you know governments as well but you know predicting how the world will operate and even the relevance of government in that kind of environment I'm not saying they weren't there always be a need to have some kind of central organizing function but it will be very different to the way that it is right now. I just don't see a future where the people ever get any value out of this it doesn't seem like smart investing is the job of the government if it was why wouldn't the government bought Apple stock after the forest gump movie like everyone else Texas will have to spend this Bitcoin when they spend it it'll be a disaster and the articles will start Texas could have held their Bitcoin and had this much money Texas could have held maybe they'll do the derivatives thing and they'll find some clever way of selling it but not selling it which again it is not something we're in faith. Not something we're in favor of as Bitcoiners right the whole Satoshi thing proving what you actually have not having the derivative loans in the boxes seems like a catch 22 a disaster they're selling people the fallacy of a rich government as if the government were rich that services would improve but of course if they improve those services they would sell that Bitcoin then they wouldn't have the money anymore and they wouldn't be rich anymore I think the most likely avenue for this Bitcoin is corruption or theft the government will screw up and have a poor custodian or by the time the government's ready to spend it because it's so-called the right time it'll be a totally different government totally different goals and the people have no idea how that money will be spent so it's very questionable to me that we're suddenly backing governments buying Bitcoin sure it's great it's a large investment in a Bitcoin it pumps everybody's bags fantastic but and for me not very libertarian to be the one standing up against government I'm like the last line of defense here Ben what do you think about the government buying Bitcoin especially a state government like Texas which relies on the national government which is now potentially could be seized by the national government as well so on and so forth. I mean if you look at the budget of taxes it's a pretty small amount of zero points zero zero four of that budget it's 10 million dollars really isn't that much money. I actually think it's more of a strategic maybe Texas wants to expand the Bitcoin industry and it needs clarity over regulatory stuff so one of the best ways to do that is you just buy and hold some Bitcoin which will probably go up in value and you'll probably make money from it but then alongside that you then have to define what that Bitcoin is and that's good for the general industry of Bitcoin companies which are operating in Texas. There is a bill a companion bell which comes along with taxes buying the Bitcoin 4 4 8 8 which means that it's quite hard for them to sell the Bitcoin so even if there's a regime change or a crisis within taxes it's hard for them to sell the Bitcoin. Am I right in the article? Obviously you know that could be superseded and say the federal government could just take the Bitcoin but I think kind of makes sense they want to dip their toes in the industry there's lots of money as you want to operate from Texas. Then you clear up regulations and the need to sort of clear oversight from the SEC and you just be able to define what this thing is and it's kind of bullish in this way it's like enough for them to wet their beak have a best skin in the game and then have enough for it to actually impact the industry in Texas which is a prime location for mining. So I think it's a great thing because of this you know solar stuff so yeah it's good. Well I can hear the bee casher's ringing their bells in the audience but it does seem like the digital gold meme that's been adopted by the general public especially the institutions leads to this and Michael sailor of course with the ossification of Bitcoin meme. And the end of Bitcoin programming and improvement is this neutered Bitcoin this Bitcoin that you hold and don't use this Bitcoin that is not programmable money it's it's wrong Bitcoin is digital gold and dot dot dot digital gold and something else and that's why I don't see this for Texas or for the other states it's a bet against the dollar it's a bet on Bitcoin and it's a bet in favor of dollar collapse. This global currency Bitcoin the government is now funding their own destruction it doesn't make any sense Victoria does it make any sense that they're doing this. They are colluding with the funding of their own destruction but I don't think they have a choice because the destruction is a mathematical inevitability so you know it's some in that kind of situation when you when you can see the storm coming or you can see the wall coming you build a bunker and I think that's what any sensible. What any sensible person would do but I agree you know it is facilitating the death of the dollar but the dollar was going to die anyway so you know it's what would anyone else do in that situation. I'm trying to pull up a good response to the book here there's a book about this actually in 1973 called national suicide military aid to the Soviet Union written by Anthony C Sutton a great unknown historian who. He should all read and what he basically says is during the Vietnam war the United States was funding the Soviet Union that was funding Vietnam that was then attacking them and that there was this circle going where the money was destroying the very people the money was trying to protect and that we were fighting ourselves and I think they're seeing this again with the banks and the states now buying Bitcoin that they're just hastening their own demise that they're committing you know, banks suicide and the money. So banks suicide and national suicide on a massive level here and I think it's well of course countries are just puppets of the bankers so is that a surprise. I suppose so but they're being really transparent about it maybe to transparent at this point they should work on a little cover a little fig leaf but we'll see that because again they think they've controlled this Bitcoin they think they've tamed it they've made it digital gold all of us anarchists and whatever are gone. Push down out of the conversation yet at the same time all of the properties are a bit of Bitcoin are still there all of the properties are still intact and nothing that they've done or said even though they've bought millions of dollars worth and they're very they have conferences and everything now none of the properties have changed go ahead Ben. My wife's been word again yeah you're right Bitcoin Bitcoin doesn't care who owns it doesn't it's completely ambiguous as to who is holding the Bitcoin and that's a very important property of Bitcoin. But I think it kind of makes sense like to play devil's advocate. This thing is designed to attack all the power structures of the world but if a country embraces it so if you look at the US dollar for example like the thing which gives it value and worth around the world is the US economy and US military. And if the US has a plays a large part within the Bitcoin if the Bitcoin's the you know the new future backbone of the world's economy and the US plays a big part in the industry and just actually owns a whole bunch of Bitcoin then it gives that economy value and gives by proxy the US dollar value. The soft currency of your dollar continues to exist then probably one of the best things it can do right now is a key might Bitcoin and embrace the Bitcoin industry so. I think you're right I think there's a bunch of like a centric supply one of them bigger bet than 10 million dollars and wouldn't you bet it from Washington not from Texas like are we. I mean that that that that that that that that that that that it's enough to get some regulatory clarity in Texas so they can have more industry there and it's not so much that it becomes contentious among the you know the population of Texas for so. I think we're in a really unique place where Bitcoin is so hard to understand all of the properties to truly understand like Gabriel divine used to say you have to be multi disciplinarian you have to be a cypher punk and a libertarian and into finance and into history and all these different things or you're not going to understand it. I think that they have thoroughly misunderstood it they have a five second understanding and they're rushing to adopt it because they read the new Wall Street journal that they could be just like the remote Himalayan kingdom Bhutan right but Bhutan started mining Bitcoin in like 2013 right they took an early risk on something that's early all these middle and late adopters are rushing in and they think that they're still early adopters and they're going to get in and get all this wealth. I don't know I think it's I mean I think you have the you know you have the idiot presidents and then the idiot like spokespeople for government and then you have the people who've been in government for decades and they're you know they're working at random wherever else and their ideas and they know the what Bitcoin is in existence of Bitcoin and and how what the US's role should be in Bitcoin's future. I think it's probably partly a strategic play to have some exposure to the industry and then also Bitcoin as well to keep themselves as relevant and keep the US dollar relevant and then also like you say there's some naive assumption that you know the alphabet agencies can is it some control over Bitcoin and stop it from replacing you know the USD is the world reserve currency for example. But I mean I the like the damned if if they were to completely not Bitcoin we criticize them if they were to completely embrace Bitcoin then we criticize them for trying to cop the protocol if they just buy a little bit of Bitcoin we're going to criticize so basically they were always going to criticize the money but actually think the relationship they have with Bitcoin currently is is kind of you know it's kind of as good as it could be for them as long as they don't start dictating which they are. Through proxies or whatever else dictating how the program that it should ossify in the pro course shouldn't advance but there we are whatever there's all these different things that play. But I think strategically the US is actually probably in the right position when it comes to Bitcoin currently. Just before the show is watching Joseph moyers and the power of myths I think I messed up his name Bill moyers and the power of myths and Joseph Campbell and what they're talking about is I don't think this old government idea fits with this new world that we're in with the technology we have because I started to break it down my house like what could the government do that we wouldn't criticize them for and I got to something very simple where I was like they could break down all the things they're doing in kind of government. I want to see everything publicly I want to see all the spreadsheets I want to see all the data I want to analyze it you know probably with the AI I want to know what they're doing and look at the books kind of thing with grids and graphs and success right that's what but it doesn't seem that the old government metaphor is going to transition into the new government that we know we can get from the Internet we know we can get this kind of data driven government go to or bad it could try to achieve these goals and this government we have right now is not data driven. They're not trying to achieve these goals it's like they don't know anything about Google ads they're not writing they're not iterating they're advertising not iterating their services they're so far behind they can seem completely disconnected I think it's very unlikely that we upgrade the current government metaphor it's much more likely that we have a huge disaster in catastrophe setting back the world like in the foundation books the the collapse of the claps of the administrative state and the government setting us back 10,000 years dark age. It's just like a huge age is unless they develop the foundation kind of a historical patch to get us back to where we were it just seems like an incompatibility I don't see these two things and I stand on the as a generation on the bridge of the analog to digital divide where I saw the old world with the card catalogs and the old things and I see the new world with the digital and I don't see a bridge or a transition I see a complete break. If you look at like represents democracy it's you know hundreds of years old technology far predating the internet at a time where most of the population was a litter and you would hope that they would their friend would read to them some political pamphlets they could have some be informed somewhat so they can then go and vote for somebody. So yeah clearly we're like way beyond represents democracy but it's kind of like there's there's two things at play so we have all this great new technology so you can have more direct forms of democracy but then in the same regard. You know that haggaly in stability which you get from slow moving institutions. I can agree with in a way like it's it's you don't want overnight revolution everything gets turned upside down with power vacuum and people flood into those power vacuum. So like these systems of government or they need to update to the new paradigm of the internet existing and like you say it could all be on wiki you know it could all be using Bitcoin payments and we could see exactly where all the sats and whatever else. But then that's yeah that's. Of sort of in the opposite that so that there's like a push and pull between that idea and then just the idea of you know slow moving government because actually. stability and slow moving change in institutions government institutions actually means you know stability in a country so. It's a tricky one yeah but we're certainly at the point where it is right for an upgrade and I think maybe that that might be something which is. You know the potentially forced to do because people will just start just taking control for themselves and just upgrading for themselves i was just. You know they'll start organizing locally more and organizing online more and. Outside of the remit of government and build tools and applications which just slowly erode the. necessity of government and those age old institutions. Well i mean i know the UK government has certainly is is definitely engaged with the idea of. blockchain technologies mean even as far back as 2017 i remember going to a trade fair where some was talking about all the different categories where blockchain could be applied. The problem is they're still living in this delusion that they can continue managing the world as it's always been managed. And I think what a lot of people don't recognize is the fact that our existing fiat system is intimately tied into how government. operates as it is right now and the thing is. You know the found the the system of money that we used. has a huge impact on the way in which society operates before we had government we had monarchs and the way in which countries operate is you know one king would invade another country and whoever won the war would end up taking over and then they'd be able to. Institute finds and take over the property i mean this is how. Henry Henry the eighth you know became wealthy because he just trashed all the monasteries and and. Store all their treasures that's what happens when your money is a physical asset and so going from a physical asset to having pay for money managed by banks was actually an improvement unfortunately we've just got to a stage where that system has become so corrupted. it's necessitated the invention of something else where we want less corruption and more transparency but the way in which we manage that transition. I think there is a way to do I think if governments are actually engaging with the technology but without the delusion of thinking that they can continue the way they have been you know means that. you know you are going to need more transparency and more transparency with the money that can't be corrupted means you're going to have to make very different decisions then you've done in the past and it's going to be a huge shock. you know not just for the government but also for the population. I do think Victoria like you said that transition management is very important here and it means that you have to accept that the old systems going to fail if you're building a life boat if you're putting so many resources into this like they did in the foundation series where they literally set scientists to a planet at the edge of the universe and told them to write. you know that's why I think it's a very good way to get a good idea that would solve the problem but really they were planning a new government and a new civilization that's why the Texas bed against the dollar seems so cynical to me. and a short-sighted if that is their belief that Bitcoin will replace the dollar and so on so forth that's not a good thing for government to be doing. a lot of people have predicted for the long time things like the the last grasp of the old world the end of the world war two generation the baby boomers the end of history for a long time they talked about a demographic shift in the United States that there wouldn't be a white majority anymore that Latinos African Americans other groups would then constitute the majority and that the white majority would have to deal with this and previously a lot of people thought this will be great for the democratic party the the new Latino supergroup. and so forth will support the democrats this is horrible for conservatives but we've actually seen the opposite where many Latinos and these new groups are conservative as well and we're having kind of a last grasp of this conservative movement as a reaction to President Obama. but I think it's more than that I think that it's going to come down to technology and that what Trump really in a way represents is this old world he doesn't email he doesn't text he doesn't use a computer because he's paranoid about it being used against him. and trials and he's correct that's been a great strategy for him in his life most people can't afford to not use computers but he's been able to pull it off but I think technology has changed and it's strange to see them use so much technology to weaponize propaganda against people. meanwhile we have chat GPT we have the superpower you could see through propaganda you could think complexly you could talk to the computer in detail about subjects. but there's this giant disconnect between us and the government there's no path there's no liquid democracy where your votes could change your fluidity could change if people don't like this guy as it's clear they don't they don't have to wait arbitrarily for years or wait the election you know the results come in and then on January 20 a three months later we and we put in shine the president because that's how long it took to manage the elections of the old days none of these things match up to a new world where you can send an email. you know you can send an email or an instant message that you should have a government that's more like your email more like your instant message although we've seen responsive government can also lead to tyranny as well so as part of our government is that it's designed to be slow but everyone's forgotten that and they want it to be fast and it's leading to fast tyranny as the founders predicted. you know go back to where democracy started and the ancient Greeks and every Greek citizen had the right to visit the agora and speak their mind and have a say and speak up and you know put the point of view across and that was a daily event which everyone could go to obviously had slaves to do everything else so I think with the internet being the way it is and people are being as formed as there is as they are the there's probably not a bad direction for us to go in and I think that's a good thing. is there some sort of online agora some source or the where people can vote might be a terrible idea. Yeah. It might it would have to be structured like the other systems you don't have this tyranny of the majority where they can just all agree but I do agree and I think that we need a form of direct democracy where the people can vote directly or you could give your vote to a representative as a proxy then they could vote with your vote but if you decide you don't like what they voted for you could take it. way you can't undo the vote but you could take it away and give it to someone else so that it could move more fluidity like similar to the parliament system where you could throw out the parliament bring in a new parliament it doesn't happen just on a four year basis where we're completely frozen here we have to wait three years allegedly maybe two years maybe year and a half if they hold a fair midterm election but there's going to be no change in the current system and to have compared to the phone where everything changes so instantly. It's an agronistic it seems old fashioned but the anarchist would say you have to direct democracy and then have also direct action which is what we can do with Bitcoin so we can just buy some Bitcoin opt out and then slowly with the powers of state. Spoken like a true libertarian great work been moving on to issue four Bitcoin loans are back rewriting the book Celsius burned Bitcoin landers are betting that tighter controls and clearer risk management can rebuild the sector still haunted by the collapse of predecessors Celsius and block five previously when you loaned out your Bitcoin through these institutions they would re-hypothicate a clever word for them loaning out. You're a Bitcoin again and perhaps loaning out dozens or hundreds of times your Bitcoin in the re-hypothication i.e. creating value creating paper wealth the new companies say they're not going to do it and there's even major players like JP Morgan who might be involved a Victoria Jones what do you think about the new Bitcoin lending totally different than the old Bitcoin lending. Yeah I mean it's just I know what they're saying which is you know there's now more responsibility but of course what that means it's relying on the systems to be more honest and more regulated which is fine as long as the existing system loss which has the power to enforce regulation but of course you know it's this is the Bitcoin parasite you know ultimately the code of Bitcoin is more powerful than that legislation. And all you need is something to go wrong in the existing financial system for the price of Bitcoin to crash and all of those algorithms get crushed and I think we even said it earlier you know wouldn't it be ironic if paper Bitcoin actually ends up being what crashes the existing system you know getting us to the place where Bitcoin is the only thing that anyone trusts and is prepared to transact and anymore I think we're still a long way away from that reality but you know. These are the mathematical inevitabilities that now exist based on the structure that we have and I think you know a lot of a lot of the arguments with the ETF and the idea of digital gold and ossification of did of gold you know is actually employed by the existing financial system to freeze the threat of Bitcoin you know because it's when Bitcoin actually circulates in the economy as a currency that it will do the most damage and I think those that operate the financial system understand. That very well. They haven't been it you know they tried to chase down whoever the inventor of Bitcoin was they couldn't manage that they then had the blockchain not Bitcoin narrative they couldn't manage that they then tried CBDCs and apparently then you know the digital one is now failing in China so they couldn't manage that you know it's a last ditch attempt and it's still a very recent attempt to try and get digital gold to you know stay as digital gold and okay we'll let you have Bitcoin but only as digital gold that this far and no further but I think it's going to be a lot of money. Of course you know the fundamental design of Bitcoin means it's inevitably going to be you know that you know up until 1925 in Britain it was possible to go to the bank and change your pound notes for gold coins and the only reason it stopped was because Winston Churchill introduced a law that said you couldn't do it anymore and FDR did the same thing when they confiscated gold in the US circulating gold as a currency is what gives the population its fairness in trade. You know the moment they took that away from the population that's the point at which the FDR system really started to be disadvantaged against the population and you can see it in charts of you know how poverty reduced in the 1800s and then went flat from about 1920 you know the fact that gold does not circulate in the economy is a direct impact on the level of poverty that we're experiencing in the world today and because all of that data is obscured very few people recognize that. So you know we have to have Bitcoin as a form of circulating gold that's what it's designed for and that's the point at which it benefits the population you know keeping it as a form of digital gold is in service of the existing financial institutions and they're pulling the wool over your eyes if you think that that's in any way meant to be benefiting you. So yes any matter of time for that that message becomes a lot clearer because it needs to. I think you definitely right Victoria was a huge right of the people that they could go to the bank and trade in their money for gold they lost it most don't even know they lost it they all think it's there people still think we're on the gold standard in the United States we haven't been on it since Nixon that's getting further and further away in the past as the years go by personally though looking at the Bitcoin lending it's nice to see large players like JP Morgan in there in my mind that says big bank backing and that your money would be. Safe because they have lots of money although we know that's only perceived safety maybe the bank makes a bad bet maybe they're too big to fail maybe they're not maybe they get backed up by the government maybe not I was just looking up on a Google which strangely and terrifyingly transformed into Google AI and was acting like chat GPT with no other options and it reminded me that bear stern failed but Lehman brothers was saved so you never know if your. Bitcoin loan is going to be held by the company that fails or the company that succeeds although I do think it's getting safer than it was before Ben arc what do you think about the Bitcoin loans and what Victoria said about them trying to keep Bitcoin as digital gold and these loans being another way of Bitcoin something you let the institutions hold for you. I think like the the tools that a Bitcoin and we have this program of money we can have things like time locks and I think I mentioned on the show before you have something like five fish. Whereas if you get paid in Bitcoin you don't want to spend the Bitcoin right now but you need to pay rent you can defer spending that Bitcoin to a year or two years in the future with the assumption that's probably going to go up in value because that's you know traditionally what the experience in which you've had or. And then at some point during during the lifetime of that loan you can pay the loan back and if you don't you can just default on the loan the person is lending you the fear gets their APR and then you get whatever the whatever's left over which could be probably more than you would have spent on the thing in the first place and it's it's something which for me was. Niggling in my brain on the last pizza day and I was thinking about last low with those pictures of his kids in that pizza and I was thinking if you'd have that kind of mechanism where he didn't need to spend the Bitcoin there and then he could spend the Bitcoin effectively in the future then he would potentially have more Bitcoin I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If you know something's going to go up in value and if you're pricing goods and services something which you know is going to go down in value which is your local fear currency that's not like some class wise Bitcoin loan I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Listen you're new tool of the market which people can use or not use as a sub to them as in the problem is if you then start wrapping those is. Package the financial instruments which you can enter around the Wall Street that's when you have the real systemic risk because you just can't balance the books whereas with programmable money you can see it time locked everyone's you know going to be made whole whatever the put you know you. The person who lend you the money is going to get them money no matter what then that's not a bad thing and it shouldn't be tarnished with the sort of general. Funkeness that Wall Street are probably going to get up to with Bitcoin but I mean like they just these people they just want more ways of making a quick buck and Bitcoin for them is this new investment tool which they can create these loans and then package those baskets like bundles of those loans and then trade those on Wall Street and whatever else then you end up back in 2008. But I do think there is something really interesting when it comes to collateralized Bitcoin loans for like micro loan micro lending. I was trying to work out a way with Alan bits how we can have like how a me and my shop I could be paid in Bitcoin but the person who's paying is paying with a card payment just a fair payment. And you know micro lending marketplace with collateralized Bitcoin loans could be away for that I get my Bitcoin they be able to buy something in cash actually get more Bitcoin than the things worth because I'm effectively creating this micro loan so there's definitely something there and we are in this unique position where you have an asset which is increasing in value significantly and then you have this currency which is paid to which is priced in which is decreasing significantly. So yeah it's a we'll see we'll see how's it all rosanna Thomas I have a quote for you. When you call me libertarian on the last topic the interference of state power in social relations become superfluous in one sphere after another then ceases of itself the state is not abolished it with as a way who said that. Marks yeah it was marks and angles there we are so I can talk about withering of state it's all right. Very good and I think that going back to lasso I think he's going to be used as an example in every single commercial for these loan products but unfortunately he wants to get time for it because you don't need him to be in the commercial you just put the words on the screen someone paid a hundred thousand bit coins or what 10 thousand bit coins for two pizzas. Don't be like that which again reinforces this digital gold don't spend Bitcoin don't use it as a currency meme it's like the people are being taught to cut off their hands they're like cut off your hands don't send around Bitcoin it's this incredible international currency that can go anywhere for pennies you can move hundreds of thousands of dollars for pennies across the world don't use that feature forget forget about Bitcoin feature. But then practically you know a friend of mine bought a house three years ago was worth 100 and 100 grand now it's worth 200 grand sold the Bitcoin to buy the house the Bitcoin's now worth 700 grand like the thing which you would have used for collateral over that loan for that period of time if the loan if he were now to you know default on the loan on Bitcoin collateralized loan he would get like back 550 grand or whatever is. And he would have originally where is he spent you know he's not going to get that money back because he just spend the Bitcoin bought a house for 100 grand so there's certainly something there we shouldn't just credit all. No there's definitely something to it but it'll be the bankers that make it'll be the people who understand finance who make the most advantage of it and of course which is kind of the point like we should we should take can we shouldn't just let Michael say they just run away. With this thing make a ton of money and stack all that Bitcoin it's like why can't no more people you know this is what's five fish is cool for like my friends who get paid in Bitcoin they use five fish and they sell less of their Bitcoin to pay for their lifestyles and that's kind of cool it's like you know it gives them the same tools that which Michael says fiddling around with like it's fine right now which is fine right now but it's like do you remember that time where there was a there was a whole movement where people would use 0% credit cards and they just go from one to the other until all of a sudden the 0% credit cards didn't exist anymore and anyone who had any debts left on it were committed to 24% because they built up so much debt on these 0% credit cards I mean it's great in the beginning for the people who understand how it works. But of course when it stops working that's the point at which everyone is on board and it's like all the lemmings are about to fall off the cliff because they didn't understand what the long term implications are yes it's great now which makes a great selling feature but the thing is when it stops working like Celsius and FTX it's a disaster for everybody you know there are plenty of people who part into Celsius and FTX until it wasn't fun anymore and look at the devastation that caused yeah what you do like aside from you know the strategies of whatever else we're over there doing we have programmable money we can time like a transaction say okay you know and the conditions of the transaction can be that that the Bitcoin isn't liquidated unless it hits a certain threshold or unless it's certain amount of time runs out so like the feature of programmable money means that normal people can access holding the asset which is going to go probably increase in value without using something like a strategy or a or some like derivative platform or whatever else until they get liquidated yeah but if they get liquidated then the worst thing which will happen is they lost you know the thing which they would abort would have cost them 10% more than how they just sold the Bitcoin which for most Bitcoin is a risk they want to take over like a two year period yeah yeah I think it's a spectrum of you know one side you've got complete scam probably going to crash the walls of carmen and then on the other side you've got this useful tool people who are paid in Bitcoin have Bitcoin don't want to spend it can use to pay for real workers and services well and I know we've talked recently about Michael sailor and how you should sell everything you own and buy Bitcoin and kind of live a really risky life which we know he's not doing he's does still owns lots of things he's very wealthy I think there's a disconnect between the idea of housing as an investment versus housing as a home base or a place to live or a chance to have stability in your life and even Jamison Lopp hardcore Bitcoin or friend of the show tweeted out recently that selling Bitcoin is a big deal selling Bitcoin is okay that you have to live your life that your life is finite and if you don't sell a little bit every once in a while to have some fun or buy a house or whatever you want to do as mad Bitcoin said hoddle plus profits you got to take some profits every now and again otherwise what is life for what was the point of all this and I think a lot of people are getting trapped in this infinite number go up game where if like Victoria says if there is another down I know sailor has predicted no bear market forever which is stunning prediction sure will repeat it in the future but if it does go down you can feel terrible if you don't sell at the top you don't sell a little bit you don't know exactly where the top is but if you keep cutting off you know 1% 2% here or there little numbers you could do it but we also have the other side where like Ben is saying instead of the house you should hold the Bitcoin forever unless not forget the immortal words of Jay Z from the song the story of OJ I've tried to find hopefully the not censored version of this he says financial freedoms my only hope F living rich and dying broke and this is the key line I think this is really important he's trying to communicate this to everyone in clear plain language I bought some artwork for 1 million 2 years later that shit worth 2 million few years later that shit worth 8 million I can't wait to give this shit to my children y'all think it's boozy I'm like it's fine but I'm trying to give you a million dollars worth of game for 999 turn that 2 to a 4 4 to an 8 turn my life into a nice first week release date Jay Z the story of OJ and every other word in that song is the end words so I'm really censoring it if you go listen to the real word it's the real song and it's a cool song and stuff but yeah every every word is inappropriate for this show and so forth but still he's trying to communicate you the wisdom of pretty much what we're saying with the holding some Bitcoin the 0.1 Bitcoin that is your Picasso that is your you know and sure you got a trim a little you get a get a boat get a yacht get a car whatever you got to do but at the end of the day you want to try to hold that Picasso to hand it down to your children so that you can have this generational wealth that Jay Z is talking about yeah I wouldn't trust Jamison lock because I mean Cas are they've got a new Bitcoin reserve treasury product so he's just trying to get you all to sell your Bitcoin so the treasury product can buy it up then all if forever and not so let's don't wait money there's always a financial is there's always a game there's some kind of a deal on something but we're running out of time so let's go to predictions or story of the week Victoria Jones you ready with a prediction or a story of the week go ahead. Yes my story of the week is I've been working hard on the next course that we're producing on our website the one we've got now is building a Bitcoin node which I've produced with Darren there's a little intro video on the website that you can see to have have some insight into it initially when we started making these we thought we'd just do YouTube videos that we'd produce on YouTube but actually putting them together there's a number of different camera. Angles that we had to use just to kind of make some sense and working together it turned out to be so much work it was just like we're going to have to turn this into a course that we're going to monetize so we've monetized it but you know it's not the crazy prices that you often see online courses like 99.99 this was 80 pounds and we've got a discount code from anyone on the world crypto network that wants to purchase it which is WC N O D E so WC node 40 and I'll say that again WC N O D E 40 and that gives you 40% discount if you purchase it before this time next week. So anyone who's interested you know take a look at that and hopefully find it useful you know this one's just getting you to put together the hardware and we've shown you how to download the umbral software this is just so that you can practice figuring out how to run a node we've got another course coming up later where we actually teach you how to download Bitcoin core because obviously that's better for more financial sovereignty so we've got a number of these coming out but we're trying to spread it out a bit just to spread it out. Spread out the workload so yeah take a look at that you're interested and if you know anyone who wants to build a node you know it's a good way to start we're trying to design it for for beginners because the idea is at the end of the day if it's going to be money for everybody part of what keeps the system decentralized as people being able to know how to run a node how to operate them how to maintain them and we've also got the next course that we do is going to be on node maintenance where we talk about you know how to use your node. So we've got a node to vote on the network and how all of that works so we cover a number of those details so yeah so check it out if you're interested and people who subscribe to my newsletter tend to get a 50% discount when it first comes out so you know if you are going to be interested in somebody's course in the future I would encourage you to subscribe to that because it'll keep you updated as soon as it's available. And everyone can check this out at Satoshi's page dot com Satoshi's page dot com thanks Victoria and also check out me or go blockchain days I think we're pretty excited everyone's getting a set for got my flights and stuff booked in our view obsessed with Bitcoin and Liberty we are to join us at me or go blockchain days six July 10 through 13th this year in Palma me or Spain Europe the world Victoria. I know you're going to be there we're hoping that Ben can get it together but it's a great conference it's really small really fun anything Victoria want to say about the conference help promote if anyone's out there on the fence maybe they're thinking about going and of course there'll be online panels and videos and stuff coming out from the conference as well so you can experience it on you're not near me orca. Yeah it is a good conference and there are a number of us now who go regularly and in it so it's because it's small it's a really good way of actually talking getting to talk to people whereas some of these big conferences are just a bit too overwhelming and have a great. Boat trip on the Sunday which is often the highlight of my year but yes this will be the fifth year that I've spoken at this conference now and i'm hugely grateful to Chris because he gave me a platform when nobody knew who I was and i've been going there ever since and yeah you know it's it's the highlight of my year now so definitely worthwhile if that's what you're interested in. It's pretty cool check out these speakers Victoria Jones, Jed Grant, MZ, Amir Taki, our friend of the show Vlad Kosta it's going to be there Christian Rootsle, Peter Todd, Allegiance Toshinakamoto and of course Ben Ark and Thomas from Electron Wallet also friends of the show. Ben what do you think you're still listed as a speaker but I hear you might not make it anything you want to say about my orca blockchain days anyone the audience is thinking about going with like to see you there. Yeah if I'll kill you then when I saw this all myself listed as speaker and I was like god damn i'm going to pass but i'm going to try and get my shit together i lost my passport and i'm not very good at not losing passports and you can't lose. Yeah physically lost my no i didn't lose it like in a in a in a Nali Amir Taki typeway i don't know how you can still travel around with all his shenanigans but i'm god bless him no i lost my passport in a in a clumsy way not in a not in a cool way you know i wasn't like again some freedom fight somewhere and when you lose passport enough passports in the UK it becomes really hard to get another passport and you have to get it. I can be a meeting with secret service and then you need to make sure that you're not selling them to. I see something so hopefully I can get one of those and then there's a couple of weeks in come along because it is it is honestly. Like. It's one of my favorite conferences in the look i mean that the when you see that picture there would be everyone on the boat that that that's pretty much the amount of people who go to the conference and then when you look at the you know i don't really like the term signal but. You know having people like like Thomas from electroman Amir Taki and roots all in Victorian like there's just such a high density of quality people who are there and it's it's very. We relaxed and informal and people kind of speak their minds and they present stuff which perhaps they wouldn't present in a in a bigger conference but it's it's a retreat whenever i go i come away feeling happy and healthier and nourished and then enriched by just hanging out with a whole bunch of cool bit corners like OG cool bit corners. But it's also very welcoming and we'll just have a laugh to much bears got on the sea is wonderful it's lovely really lovely and being me or Chris what me or such a nice spot me or Chris while they have the conference. But yeah very much hope I can either mean yeah get a new passport I think is the. I'll try and get a new passport or smuggle my way into your power got two weeks then. I've got two weeks to try and get one of those the problem with those interviews to is they ask you a bunch of questions from really bad at such as. Now literally ask you or if you were to travel if you were to walk from your home to this location what roads would you take and I don't know the names of roads is something which i've never been out to no never know the right names of roads i just kind of you know i could describe it for him roughly so they ask you those sorts of questions are really probing questions. So i'm not looking forward to but i'll try my try my best i pay the couple of hundred quid and see if i can get passport in time. I'll be great and it would have been so easy if you guys are still in the EU you know you could have just gone down no problem no passports no. Well you still need the passport when we were in the EU to be fair but we get we get the short key which is nice. So we want to bend do you have a prediction or a story of the week go ahead. Story of the week is can kind of have a screen sharing love Thomas. Yes it's on now go ahead. Alright so yeah story of the week is there's this crazy new PR from Vlad Stan in Alan Betts so now if I in if you're a super admin you can go to fair providers and you could add in stripe or square. And then you're like well why are you polluting this beautiful Bitcoin software with your horrible fear ship. But I can literally create an amount in here to say 10 pounds. I want to say GB by GBP GBP. 10 pounds and then I can say I want to pay with stripe creating voice and then this creates a stripe payment link for 10 pounds. And then it goes through the same sort of accounts system that we have for Bitcoin and Alan Betts. So then it's like well why would you do such a horrible things such a beautiful piece of Bitcoin software. Well an example is this extension I've been working on which is cell coins. So you can with cell coins you can create a front end public page and then you can sell Bitcoin. So except for your payments and then email people like an Alan you are withdraw so they can buy Bitcoin over over lightning so kind of like for onboarding and for a whole bunch of other extensions it unlocks a whole bunch of stuff so it was kind of crazy that Vlad Stan was able to one of the developers was on a bits was able to. Wrangler into the Alan bit software but I think it's pretty dope like once upon a time many years ago I created a little platform and I sold a little bit Bitcoin on there about 200 quid and it was just kind of a WooCommerce and I think I saw like 200 quid with a Bitcoin in about 20 minutes and then I got scared and turned it off because I was like I don't want to be arrested so I turned off. Whereas this empowers anyone who's running Alan bits with the tools they need to sell Bitcoin and then just send a public page around locally and say for a specific coin, come back to Bitcoin. Obviously operate it in you know in the way in which your laws in your local jurisdiction level blah. But yeah it's I think it's pretty cool and kind of excited about it and then I yeah some of the stuff won a bill to join going to. Sounds great but it's a neat way to send Bitcoin around I think it'd be fun to sell Bitcoin that way I have more movie reviews this week in case you guys are interested I would say check out the world according to Ali Willis this is a documentary about Ali Willis who as the poster says. The most interesting woman you've never heard of she wrote the songs September Boogie Wonderland neutron dance the theme song from the TV show Friends the color purple musical she was in huge influence on P.W.s playhouse and Paul Rubens as you can probably see from the colors in this image and the style in which she dresses. She was also an early internet pioneer Mark Cuban was the CEO of her project Willisville that was never created but she did receive hundreds of thousands of dollars of funding from Intel and other companies as she attempted to put her version of what sounds today like NFTs and a metaverse online she wanted to create a whole universe that you could go into in the early internet we're talking like 95 94. She had these ideas she was incredibly influential through parties all kinds of stuff check out the world according to Ali Willis and check out her song she's got a lot of really cool songs there they're very poetic she's a songwriter like Joni Mitchell like a singer songwriter can I think if you haven't seen it yet check out P.W. as himself the incredible documentary about P.W. Herman the best documentary I've seen since the Tom Green documentary which is also really worth seeing Tom Green directed in himself. In you know when into his own mind when into his own past in the same way P.W. or Paul Rubens attempts to take over this movie conflicting with the director trying to tell his own story and it's a fascinating story. Finally a fond good bye and farewell to Bill moyers who used to work for L.B.J. he was a huge on P.B.S. as a desarroll civic highlighting Gregormont winning. democracy as a journalist and he did this incredible series that you should go watch right now. I hadn't seen it. I'd read about it. He does a series, Bill Moir's and Joseph Campbell, the power of myths. And this is where we get all the talk about Joseph Campbell, the hero with many faces. He interviews probably Dr. Professor Campbell in detail about myths and his ideas. We're going to play just 49 seconds here of Bill Moir's incredible journalist. Do we ever know the truth? Do we ever find it? Well, any person can have his own depth experience and some conviction of being in touch with his own side to Ananda, his own being true consciousness and true bliss. But the religious people tell us we really want experience until we go to have it, you know, to die. I believe in that as much as you can of this experience while you're alive. I think in having to be having such a marvelous time looking at God that you won't get your own experience at all. That's not the place to have it. Here's the place to have these things. Here and then. Here and now. Here's the place to have the experience. Bill Moir's 92 incredible person. Thanks so much to everybody for joining us. Be sure to give us a thumbs up down below and push subscribe. Thanks for saying hi in the chat and be sure to leave a comment afterwards. We always check to see if we get any comments. We don't get that many, but it's nice when we do. So thanks so much for joining us. Until next time.