ARROW The Bitcoin Group, the American original for over the last 10 years, the sharpest citossis, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Arck from LN bits. Good evening, all. Josh Shigala from the standard dot IO. Well, how do you do, sir? Jimmy Song from programming Bitcoin. Hey guys, get to see you. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the world crypto network, moving on to issue one, issue one crypto bohemith coin base enters the Bitcoin defy arena. That's right, coin bases here. And they've created their own version of bit goes W B T C or wrapped Bitcoin. Now coin base Bitcoin will compete with Bitcoin, wrapped Bitcoin. It could be defy summer. Ben Arck, what do you think about coin base entering the D five realm? I mean, it's it's part of the world, which I don't really get much exposure to the whole D five world. So I'm going to lean on Josh in a moment on all this stuff, because he's he really knows this stuff, particularly when it comes to things like rap Bitcoin. I guess I was a lot of use utility. And I think one of the main ones is exchanges as I understand it. People using Bitcoin and exchanges and wanting Bitcoin coverage on exchanges. And that's why they need this rap Bitcoin. But beyond that, I know very little about this topic. So I'm just going to I'm going to I'm going to, you know, leave the fifth and pass over Josh, because I'm really interested to get Josh's take, because he's he's this is something which he's spent a lot of time working with. And so I do want to know what like what people use right Bitcoin for. And then also whether, you know, it's a good thing whether it's something we can replace just with Bitcoin eventually. So it does seem like it's mainly used as a programmable Bitcoin and smart contracts. Josh Jagala, what do you think about coin base launching their own version of wrapped Bitcoin? Yeah, I mean, I think it's ironic, because as Ben said, it's it's mainly used for exchanges and not centralized exchanges, mainly used for decentralized exchanges. And this is one thing where I do give kudos a lot to the Ethereum spaces that Dexas are for me a really wonderful way of having having exchanges. And on Bitcoin, it is possible. It's not very popular. It's not actually liquidity. That's the only problem. Rap Bitcoin does allow for it to join the liquidity pools in, and especially with tokens such as like, you know, really terrible centralized stablecoins like, you know, USDC, USDT and stuff. But at least that's there and it's a possibility. I just don't understand why Coinbase wants to do it. I guess they have a massive, you know, horde of Bitcoin. And then they can tokenize that. But that would also seem very dangerous if they do that without clients. So I'm not sure about the details like if clients go there and put it in the bridge, because this is usually the leak, the weakest link of anything, this bridge becomes a hot wallet. And if that gets compromised, then, you know, it's game over for a lot of Bitcoin. So I'm hoping to everything, you know, to all of the crypto gods that that they aren't just putting all of their stash of Bitcoin as wrapped and allowing that to be liquidity because that would be extremely crazy. Yeah, they don't want to put their hand on the stove. They want to put their hand near the stove. It'll be fine. Yeah. But it, you know, they are in exchange. They are arguably one of the worlds, what they are, that one of the worlds biggest exchanges. And it seems weird that they want to give leverage to decentralize exchanges and allow people more access to Bitcoin over there. I don't know, maybe I think they might probably be able to take a fee on transfer. And maybe that's where they try to pull more value from because these tokens can be programmed to have a fee on transfer model. But fee on transfer doesn't work with a lot of the routers and stuff, liquidity routers used on these decentralized exchanges. So for instance, Pax Gold hardly works on a lot of these liquidity because they have this fee on transfer model, fee on transfer basically means, hey, someone needs to pay for the gold sitting in the storage, sitting in the vault, sitting in the, you know, so how do we do that? Well, every time you send the token, a little bit gets split off and pays for the demorage there. So yeah, but it's, I just see it as we had moved. It's a weird move. I've got to say, to me, it fits well in line with coin basis strategy of doing everything. They're the apple of Bitcoin, whatever your Bitcoin businesses watch out, Coinbase will be coming for it soon. Jimmy Song, I know you had some experience with this working with colored coins back in the day. What do you think about the latest token on the block? Coinbase is wrapped Bitcoin. I mean, this company that's been sort of putting, trying everything to get back to sort of like the profitability that they used to have. Unfortunately, a lot of their business is being taken away by a lot of the other players. You know, for a long time, their biggest, you know, profit was the people that were just clicking the buy Bitcoin button without, you know, going to the actual market and stuff like that. And they got like three, four percentage points off of that. Then people figured out, you know what? If I buy on cash app, they're not going to charge me nearly as much. Or if I, if I buy on river or swan or something like that, they're not going to charge me nearly as much. So, you know, that, that's where a lot of those customers have gone. So, you know, the only way other way to sort of like expand their offerings is to continue listing more share coins, which is honestly kind of a business that's brought with a lot of dangers because, you know, they, there's a lot of regulatory hurdles that they have to overcome. And, you know, they, they could get, you know, they, they're running sort of like an existential like risk by, by listing the wrong token or something like that. Or they could do something like this, which is, you know, hopefully they get a few basis points here and there by, from people that are withdrawing or maybe even on transfer or whatever. But, you know, they're, they're trying to figure out other ways to get money because their revenue, honestly, is almost entirely from like, you know, the generic gamblers at this point. So, you know, and honestly, if you're going to be at the generic gambler, you're going to go on Binance or somewhere else and not Coinbase. So where, where are you in this market, right? And, you know, you could look at their stock chart. They're, they're still trading below their IPO price and so on. So they got to try different things. And I'm sure it's like some management consultant or some asshole MBA that said, Hey, we can, we can compete with Bitcoin by making this thing. And, you know, this will add this much and it won't be that much work and so on. And that's what they do. But, you know, this company that hasn't acted very well for a very long time. I don't think they have the best technical talent. And you can tell because they keep crashing anytime Bitcoin has a lot of activity. They're just, I mean, it's, it's honestly not that interesting to me. It's, you know, it's, it's got a big stock ticker symbol and it's correlated with Bitcoin, I guess. But honestly, I see them as a real second rate Chico and Casino. Yeah, back in the day, Coinbase really was quite something. It was practically Bitcoin only for the longest time. Then they had a handful of coins. You could send someone to that website and they'd come back with Bitcoin. Now they're like, Oh, I got twice as much like coin or four times as much Salana for the same price. You know, like, but you're supposed to buy Bitcoin. And like you guys are saying, they also have those tutorials where they'll pay you in shit coins to learn about shit coins, which always works out well for the people who get the free shit coins for doing the tutorials. So, but we do have an extra special guest here on the show. I had to run and go get it. We have the source of all truth and knowledge in this universe. The exit question, the Bitcoin predictor ball is back. Ben Ark, will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week? Lower. Lower. Joshua Chicago higher or lower? Still muted keeping them in suspense. Suspense building. Ah, sideways sideways. How's that for fence sitting? Push is the worst of all answers. Jimmy song higher or lower this time next week. Doesn't matter, but I'm going to say higher higher. Here we go. We'll ask the ball. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? And it says ask again later, ask again later after all that. The ball keeps you in suspense. You don't always get what you want. Let's move on to issue two issue two every Norwegian now indirectly owns $27 worth of Bitcoin as the sovereign wealth fund ups its crypto stake. And a little hangover from last week where we weren't able to have a show. The strategic Bitcoin reserve is an absurd idea. Sure, it makes sense why Bitcoin owners want the US government to buy Bitcoin. But why would the US government want to hold it? Let's go to. Let's go to Josh a go. What do you think about companies or countries suddenly starting to hold Bitcoin on their balance books? Is it a good idea for the countries or is it just a good idea for the Bitcoiners counting their money in the audience? Well, first of all, Norwegians don't hold Bitcoin. The government does, which is a small little mafia that decides to hold some keys. I think it's a terrible idea for countries to hold Bitcoin purely because it gives power to the people that hold the keys. And let's say there isn't a transfer of power. They could just threaten to take the funds of the entire country with them. So I don't like it. Again, we don't have to say I like the fact that they can choose to do that because Bitcoin is totally voluntary. You can jump in and if you're a country and you vote your peeps in to say, Hey, you know, yeah, buy some Bitcoin. Hey, good on you. And it'll probably do pretty well for a rebellion and code. But yeah, I think it's, unless we can get like massively multi-seag, where every use, every, every citizen gets to sign to, to transfer and 51% of the nation decides. Then, yeah, maybe then, but I'm pretty sure Shnor isn't even big enough. Good enough for that. So. I'm pretty sure I know the answer and the outcome to that election. And the answer is President Taylor Swift, President. But yeah, exactly. You can decide what to do with our money, probably t-shirts and hats. Yeah. And so I don't know. I find these sorts of headlines, isn't generous to say that, you know, every Norwegian owns 27 bucks with Bitcoin. No, they don't. But yeah, that's my take. That's my. I just like the idea that we've come to this for Bitcoin so late. There was a point where the US government could have gotten a great deal. They could have gotten Bitcoin at $100 with the launch of the Mad Bitcoin show, $1,000, maybe with the launch of this show and the World Crypto Network. Now, it's $50,000. The government's hardly getting a good deal. And as we've said before, they should really just use the money to build 50 Smithsonian museums, one in each state, like in the plan. Jimmy Song, what do you think about the strategic Bitcoin reserve and the, the fun idea that Norwegians are now up to $27 in their holdings? Oh, I disagree with both of you. I think it's a great idea. And if you're, if you're thinking as a country or a central bank or a sovereign, what you have to do is have good assets. And Bitcoin is the best asset. And I disagree with you. $50,000 is a great deal. If you can get that for right now, and, you know, projecting forward the next 10, 20 years, it's a, it's a great deal. The fact of the matter is every central bank in the world has been buying up gold. And they do it for a reason. It's so that they have some dry powder when things go south. And there is a great possibility of lots of things going south, including war and famine and all kinds of whatever disasters that you might project out into the future. So getting a Bitcoin reserve is just prudence. And this used to be the normal state of affairs when, when governments would have times of planning. They would go and, you know, store up savings so that they could do stuff in the times when things would get bad. And so doing that, I think, is a perfectly reasonable thing. Now, the Norwegian zoning $27 worth of Bitcoin, I mean, Josh is right. They don't own it. It's the, it's the government. But, you know, that Norwegian sovereign wealth fund is enormous. They own something like 5% of all equities in the world or something like that. So like if you want to know why Norway has such good policy in whatever, it's because they have enormous oil wealth and they invested that oil wealth in a diversified portfolio of all kinds of things. So it doesn't surprise me that they have some Bitcoin. That's, you know, they, they're all obsessed with diversification when they, when they invest and so on. But, you know, I honestly like having a Bitcoin reserve is just logical. If you, if you have money and you want to protect your currency or protect against all kinds of things that might happen in the future, I think this, this article is ridiculous because it's looking at it from the wrong perspective. The people that are running things want to make sure that they are set up for the future just like any individual. And if they want to set up for the future, getting Bitcoin is a pretty good way to do it. Well, I'm not here to argue against Bitcoin, but I do think it's logical for every single party in the world except the US government. If you own the dollar and you have the printing power of the dollar, it would never make sense for you to hold Bitcoin unless maybe it's that scene in the Death Star where he's like, they're breaking through all defences. I think you overestimate their chances because they own the Death Star, right? You can't expect them to give up the Death Star. It would be great and beautiful. What a romantic move or even I think a loss of faith in the power of the Death Star, but I don't think they'd do it. So I think the US government won't do it. Maybe every other company, every other country, if you wanted to bet against the US. And then there's also the problem where right now, I believe in Bitcoin in the future, but right now every time everything goes down like the stocks, for example, everyone sells their Bitcoin to cover their stocks. So the US government would take a huge loss on that day. Go ahead, Jimmy. Well, I mean, the thing is if you want to remain the world reserve currency, then you're going to have to have some dry powder to back it up. You're going to get competition from bricks and all kinds of other currencies. They already are back to the matter is the world reserve currency doesn't last all that long. And by having a strategic reserve, you can actually lengthen the time in which you have the world reserve currency because everyone sees that you have some dry powder over there to defend against a dollar devaluation or whatever. So I mean, strategically it makes sense to stockpile some Bitcoin because in either case, if you want to remain the world reserve currency or in case the world reserve currency status blows up as a result of, I don't know, war or other countries going again. Sanction, trade against Russia. It didn't work, right? It didn't work at all. It wasn't. But that's a that's a that's a chink in the armor of the global reserve currency. So you either try to short up with Bitcoin and that you use that to defend the dollar or if it if it all goes to crap, then you have this pristine asset that you can use to you know, create another currency that's actually more sound either way you win. So game theory wise, it makes all the sense in the world to store a stock up on Bitcoin. I'm not sure. I think you're letting in the devil because Bitcoin will become the world reserve currency and the world reserve currency is cash dollars floating out there in the market and a large military is the same with the breads when we had the bridge pound as the world reserve currency. It was the currency out there in the world. Everyone trading in it and then also a big lobby of military. So someone didn't want to trade in your currency anymore. You could go and kill them for some to trade in it. But with Bitcoin, if these countries start gathering these these these these sorts of Bitcoin, then they're quickening that transition to as having an a political world reserve currency using Bitcoin, which actually is a very will be very profoundly good for humanity, I think, for. As all to operate under a political world reserve currency. It's the property of Bitcoin, which like often people don't often talk about, but it's just it's a political property is very powerful. But yeah, like Norway's sovereign fund, like any sort of like we're a bit coiners and we're like, yeah, you know, Yolo, loads of Bitcoin, by as much Bitcoin as he can. But I think the wise advice for any fund is you should definitely have a small part of your portfolio, which has, you know, cover where you have some Bitcoin, even if you're trying to expect a positive asset and there's this, you didn't as this possibility that it's going to fail, then you should still have a small percentage of your portfolio because if it works, then you're going to be quid cent. And that's what the Norwegians have done. Like Jimmy said, it's an absolutely huge fund. It's looked at up its $1.6 trillion. The Norway's Norwegian sovereign wealth fund. Yeah, it's huge. Like they have these some of the biggest reserves in the whole in the whole world. And Norway's a very small place and there's not many of them. And the the oil is technically owned by everybody by the country. So they want everyone in the country to benefit from it. And the whole idea of this the sovereign fund is that if you look at the Saudis, you know, this wealth kind of gets expropriated into these fantasy projects where the Norwegians are like, you know, this stuff isn't going to last forever and rather than investing ideas of having, you know, tourism being able to generate revenue in the future. We'll invest in, you know, we'll we'll make this fund and we'll invest in a bunch of things. One of the things I've invested in more recently, quite heavily is tech like AI and then also Bitcoin. And they have it. So when you think about the 150 million Bitcoin, they've got $150 million worth of Bitcoin they've got. In a 1.6 trillion dollar fund, that's tiny, but it's very wise that they have it. And I think that's what you'll see and is is countries accumulating Bitcoin as a spectator, as a, as just a small percentage of their portfolio because if it works and we'll think it will and we're all sure it will. Then they get the argument benefit like Jimmy said. But I do think that they're like with all these, you know, legacy things which embrace Bitcoin ultimately, they're embracing their own demise, letting the Trojan. The thing is, the thing is about countries holding this much Bitcoin is that it's very, very easy to steal all of that Bitcoin. It's not like gold, which is extremely heavy and extremely hard to move. In fact, it'll probably pop the truck's wheels if you try to fill it up a semi with gold. Like Bitcoin is, you know, we all know it. And so the threat of just stealing from the purse is a lot higher from a bad actor. I don't think that one is good. I mean, because like what I mean, look at Coinbase that has anyone still stolen the, you know, many, many Bitcoin's that are in there, has anyone stolen anything from micro strategy? There are things that you can do to lock up the coins and especially with multi-sig and stuff like that. Just because like it's digital doesn't mean that it's not secure. It can be very easily secured. And there are many, many, especially with like good engineering and good software and stuff like that. I mean, I mean, you make it sound as if one rogue employee can take all the Bitcoin. That's almost certainly not all of the cases. First of all, it's private sector versus public sector. We all know which ones are a bit more intelligent, more sophisticated. The public sector generally, what I can see happen is they go so ridiculously over security that they lose access to their coins, because no one can remember how to actually piece together the keys or they're just that, or they're too badly secured and someone steals the funds. Guarantee the most company country with some Bitcoin in the stack and they will lose Bitcoin. And it will be a public sector blender, vice and do first. Always the most competent part of any government is their tax collection. And this is how they're going to view it. Like securing assets and stuff like that, they're going to be pretty good about it. I mean, honestly, I think gold is harder to secure than way harder to secure than Bitcoin. And they do a fine job of it at Ford Knox and so on. They're great. If it's worth like, you know, a trillion dollars or something, they are going to recognize that it needs at least that level of security and not give it to Bob from accounting in the justice department. Right. The seed phrase. It's it's going to have like seven different layers and they're going to practice it like. Okay. Okay. A hundred times and I've got this recovery and everything. So what about me and my, for instance, or Bangladesh? Let's say they held some sovereign of health fund in Bangladesh, bank government, and then they got asked what would happen? It's through a coup through a, you know, it becomes a disaster. You we're not talking about. It's his cousin. We're talking about a backup for extraordinary times when the whole economy collapses. There's chaos everywhere. Oh, our perfect security is going to work fine. I mean, I, well, it's kind of double as sort, isn't it? Because in that environment, then you might have to abandon ship and, you know, you can't move the gold like you said, it's too heavy, but you can move the Bitcoin quite easily and put it somewhere safer. So it's kind of this double I saw where I mean, I do agree there will be a couple of countries which goof up and they're going to lose their Bitcoin. It's going to happen. And we should probably like take bets on who that will be. But the the the fact that it doesn't take up any room is, is, is, is a good property. A lot of countries know that it's a struggle to store gold. Isn't there a couple of banks where they're like, physically running out of space? Because of the lineup too much gold. And and in that scenario of a war zone scenario, like, you know, I think the goals more likely get to get taken and the Bitcoin because it's heavy and harder to move. And good. The thing about Bitcoin is that you have so many options. You you can store it geographically distributed and they're going to, they're going to think up all of these scenarios beforehand. If it's a trillion dollar asset, what happens if there's a coup? What are we going to do? How's it going to work? They're going to go through all of those scenarios, figure out what sort of security makes sense. Maybe there's even a time lock or something like that. There's all like the amount of the space of possible ways to secure Bitcoin is way bigger than it is for something like gold. And they're going to figure something out. Now it's possible that they screw up or whatever, but it would be an epic epic failure if they do. And it would, I don't know, maybe maybe that does happen once or twice. But I guarantee you that if you have like a trillion dollars in Bitcoin, okay? People are going to be paranoid about making sure that it's secure. And they're they're going to spend like a hundred million dollars easy just to secure that Bitcoin because I mean, they do the same with or not so whatever. And yeah, honestly, if you have that much money, you can afford all kinds of different mitigations. It's not going to be Bob from accounting holding your seed phrase. It's not going to be like that. And that's kind of what you made it sound like at the beginning. We've got a few examples. Yeah, we have a couple of few examples. At its core, the way that you can transfer the Bitcoin instantly in a second and not just some of it, but all of it is radically different than gold. If you get, you know, 10% of the gold on the truck, you had a terrible robbery. But with the Bitcoin, it all goes in that second. So they have to be a hundred percent. They have to be absolutely a hundred percent. But going back to the national reserve, I think it makes sense for every country other than the US. Every country other than the country that controls the printing of the current reserve asset. If they were to give up and start hedging their bets on Bitcoin, everyone would freak out and start betting against the US dollar. So I think it's one of these Bitcoin things where it makes sense for us to say it. And of course, you can't trust a Bitcoiner because they're looking at their own interest. The price would go up a lot. The countries would switch over. Well, let's go to the exit question. Will we get a Bitcoin strategic reserve in the United States? In six months, two years or never. Ben Arck, six months, two years, or never. I'd say probably a little bit longer than six months, but within two years, yeah. I think most countries would stop voting reserve. Josh, a gole, I should start picking out curtains for my Smithsonian exchanges here. It's my museums. Yeah, it could be a couple of years, I guess. Yeah, they could do it. But I think it's to be smarter if they actually really focused on the US stablecoin and cementing that as default because that's by default somehow, you know, people have tried different currencies. The standard, we tried the euro stablecoin. It just doesn't fly. There's just no volume for any other coin out there. So if the US really wanted to solidify their space within the digital currency space and still sort of have control over the US dollar, they would take advantage of that default and really push regulation in a way that makes it super friendly. And they themselves force out the US state not saying that that's what I want. But if I'm thinking about them, that's how I push it because they're going to lose it to the bricks and all the other coins that are coming out. Competing with Bitcoin does make more sense than buying Bitcoin. Jimmy Song, six months, two years or never strategic Bitcoin reserve in the US. Go ahead. No, it depends on the election. Honestly, if Trump gets into office, I'd say it's about 50-50 on the two-year mark. But if it's Harris or, you know, whoever replaces Harris or whatever shenanigans are going on over there, then I would say it's going to take longer. You'd have to have an administration that's actually friendly towards it. So no Louisiana purchase yet, but we'll see how it goes. Let's keep moving. Check out worldcryptonetwork.com. We've got 3,873 videos, including more than 94 videos with Jimmy Song. Check it out at worldcryptonetwork. You just click on hosts and guests, and then click on Jimmy Song. You can check out all these videos with Jimmy Song at worldcryptonetwork.com. That's great. It's great to have you back on the show, Jimmy. I'll let that note. It's nice. Moving on to issue three, Goldman Sachs jumps into Bitcoin ETFs, and one hedge fund gets bullish on miners. They say, during the recent Bitcoin drop, the institutions bought into Bitcoin, buying heavily into the ETFs, and even betting on Bitcoin miners, let's go to Jimmy Song. What do you think about the Goldman Sachs ETFs and the institutional interest in good old Bitcoin? Well, all of these investment banks can print money from nothing. So for them, this is just sort of like a game, and they see the volatility, and they see, okay, I can make some basis points here and there. I don't expect a lot of these guys to be long-term holders or whatever. This is a game they're playing. They see some chart numbers or something, and saying, okay, we can manipulate things to our advantage or something like that. Honestly, I think these are a bunch of banking assholes, and I don't appreciate that. They think that they're doing us a favor by trading our stuff on an ETF, but that's just kind of how it is. And I think I'm going to bank this is what they do. And this is definitely something we wished for for years. We wanted people to be able to invest their retirement money into stocks, but we also knew and talked about all the times. It means the banking people could buy and sell Bitcoin like a stock. And like Jimmy said, they're not going to hodl. If they're bored with it one day, they sell it all. If they're interested again, they buy it right back. We're well connected to their market now in a way that we weren't before. Ben, Arck, what do you think about Goldman Sachs and their interest in the ETFs? So I couldn't find the mute button there. Yeah, no, so they realize they can't destroy it. So now it's about containment, and they just want to frame it as this new, spec in this new Wall Street asset people can play around with. And it's for investing and it's not going to, yeah, it's not going to liberate the world and all its people. And yeah, we wanted it. We wanted it to happen. One of these ETFs to happen. But then with it comes all these like people who have a lot of influence and becomes quite quickly become spokesperson people for Bitcoin. And then it's all of our jobs to defend against that. And to stick to our guns and say, no, this is what Bitcoin is. And it's here to ultimately destroy you. It's weird that they're bullish on miners because I think mining at the moment is one of the hardest ways to make money in Bitcoin. The miners, we covered it in the show. They got tiny reserves of Bitcoin. The Archer, it's gone crazy and actually making money in big. It's very bearish industry in the Bitcoin world mining at the moment. So it's interesting. I don't know. Again, you know, pretty ill informed. Like it's not a good thing to be bullish on mining. If you're going to invest money in, or throw money around in Bitcoin land. But yeah, now it's, there's been a whole bunch of, there's been a whole bunch of things which have happened since the ETF have happened, which has made us realize maybe, you know, we want, we hark back to those days, we've pre ETF where, you know, when you go to some of these big conferences and definitely like, there's a certain, there's a new type of Bitcoin who's entered the space and they just don't get it yet. They will get it, but they just don't get it yet. And yeah, it's all of our jobs to educate them on what that Bitcoin actually is and why it's here. And it's not just this, you know, Michael Saylor's play thing. That guy who's betting on the miners, Ben, he's playing four-dimensional chess. He's betting on what people are betting on, what they're betting on, what they'll be betting on. So it's going to come home in the end. It's a big bet. Josh, you go, what do you think about the institutions, their ETFs and how they're taking over Bitcoin? Oh, like, it's just, it's really dangerous. I find it dangerous because it opens us up to all these tools that they have, like, make a short selling and all these nonsense. Like Jimmy said, it's just bankers wanting to bank on an asset, but you know, it's reading through the articles like Mike Novergratz. Saying, crypto is now an asset class. It will be next year. It will be forever. And it wasn't like that two years ago. What? It wasn't like that. Yes, it was. It's always been an asset. It's an asset class. It's the money of the internet. You're a fool. And, you know, obviously he's not, you know, obviously he's made some good choices too in life. But certain things that these people get pulled out. And suddenly there are these experts in this field. And we saw this with Mr. Wonderful as well, you know, the so-called Mr. Wonderful. All these tools come out of the shed and you just think, what are you on about? You know, they could be interviewing old OGs like us who've actually been in this whole space for so long that we've seen everything come and go, including, you know, Bitcoin, not, you know, blockchain, not Bitcoin or, you know, all these, all these different narrative points. And instead they just talk to these people who have, you know, been either lucky or have been very clever in the legacy markets, but just don't get this market. They don't understand what it's for. And, yeah, but these whole ETFs said, I find them very dangerous. They're the tail wagging the dog. And that's the problem is that they come with all these tools that they understand. Plus the volume. I don't think it's that dangerous for Bitcoin, but it's definitely dangerous when it, uh, for something like Ethereum because Ethereum is this, you know, a proof of stake. And these, these people played, people will have massive stakes and voting power on, on those chains. So, yeah, um, I just find it's very dangerous for Bitcoin in terms of price because they can really start to play with that price. They can manipulate it to anything. And, uh, yeah, that'll happen. It will, it is happening. Exit question, as the panel said, the takeover of crypto punditry seems almost complete by politicians and bankers. Will it be permanent or temporary? Jimmy, song, what do you think about the recent takeover in crypto punditry? I, I think when they're proven wrong, they'll, it'll, it'll just sort of subside. Uh, you know, people listen to people that are accurate and can predict the, you know, correctly forecast the future. These people are not. So I, I think they'll go away. And none of them have the magic apple. None of them have this power. Ben, Ark, what do you think about the new pundits in Bitcoin? Will they last? Yeah, they're going to go away. And, um, what's that, that great star was called about the, you, you're one of your favorite ones with the sand. What is it? It's almost, you know, the more you tighten your grip, Lord, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your finger. Yeah, that's Bitcoin with that, with that lot. And let's go to Josh, Tigalo, what do you think? Josh, will they be here forever? Will they leave when we have the next crash? Oh, yeah, I mean, they'll definitely leave and there will be another crash and there'll be another food and they'll come back. So it's just, uh, it's whoever's good at marketing and they'll be there. As we've predicted before, there will be dark times for Bitcoin and for crypto. And I think this is one of those times where you, the original fans and the audience get up and say, they've sold out. They're not punk rock anymore. They're playing electric guitars or acoustic guitars or technological keyboards or something. You'll say it's wrong. But again, if we just stick with Bitcoin long term, it turns out okay. And we still aren't at the real dark ages where they shut down coin base. They shut down your ability to buy and sell for USD and we go back underground, which nobody wants to admit is going to happen, but it's going to happen. Let's move on to issue four. Grab bag. You decide what you want to talk about. We've got three issues here. Fugitive crypto queen, Dr. Ruzia from one coin is hit by an asset freeze. But what good does that do if she's already in the river? She's been missing since 2017. No one has seen her since she went to Greece. We've also got Ben BitBoy Armstrong, a former YouTuber and podcaster, whose former company is tied up in a fraud investigation. And they're now asking for activities for tokens that they created, such as B-E-N, named after Ben BitBoy Armstrong. We've also got Mark Cuban back in the news, predicting that Bitcoin and crypto will be amazing and huge. Of course, Mark Cuban famously said about Bitcoin. If you're really into providing the opportunity for people to grow their network, why the hate for crypto? ICO is the new IPO. Here's the thing about crypto, particularly Bitcoin. Bitcoin is worth what somebody will pay for it. Do you ever see someone who collect the baseball cards? And they were really, really, really proud of their baseball cards because they kept on saying they were going to go up in price, comic books, same thing, even artwork. There's no real intrinsic value. You can't need a baseball card or shouldn't need a baseball card. Your artwork might look good on the wall, but not much you can do with it. Bitcoin, there's even less you can do with it. At least I can look at my baseball card and go, oh, that's my favorite player. That's Roberto Clemente. I can look at artwork and go, wow. Crypto is a key that is so complicated for 99% of the population. Do you put it in a device? Do you print it out? How do you keep from being hacked? Who's going to host it for you? It's just so difficult that it's only worth what somebody will pay for it. So I say it's like gold. Gold's a religion. Now people who are really into gold, they'll tell you that there's a bad depression and things go to hell in the hand basket. If you own gold and you'll be okay, no, you won't. You carry around a gold bar. So I was going to hit your ass, knock you out and steal your gold bar and that's going to happen again and again and again. I'd rather have bananas. I can eat bananas. Crypto not so much. Look, I can make it. I'd rather have bananas. I'd rather eat bananas. All in bananas. Ben Arck, what do you think do you want to talk about the crypto queen? Mark Cuban and his incredible predictions which he changed or BitBoy and the trouble with the Ben token? Well, I'm going to have to talk about the Ben one, but the I think the crypto queen is going back to our previous topic is a very good example. There's probably somebody in the public sector who's like, oh, shit, we didn't actually freeze our assets and it's just some just some blender which they're having to cover their tracks on. But on the Ben thing, yeah, this is close to my heart because we have the high council of Bitcoin Benz. We have a group and we would say, private group, you have to be a Ben and you have to do proof of Ben. I'm going to go to Great Benz. Got Ben DeVole, Ben Price, Ben Weeks, Ben Carmen, the Bitcoin company Benz. There's some great Benz out there, some great Bitcoin Benz and there was this mean for a while about the Benz in Bitcoin and we like that meme and then the shit coins kind of came along and took the meme and then turned it into a coin and we were like, oh, okay, I mean, we carried on and it's like, we're not going to stop defending the rights of Bitcoin Benz everywhere. But it was annoying when I think I was at a conference or somewhere and I had a bit of shit coin in there and then I saw like a booth for the Ben meme coin and the shit coin Benz stuff and they totally just kind of latched onto our little quirky funny thing, got a little funny Bitcoin meme and then taken it for themselves and then just as they do, it's an opportunity to print some useless token. So good, I'm glad they're going after him. He's not a real Ben and he'll probably get stripped of his name and have to be called Michael or something else. They have ruined the good name of Ben. I'm just glad the guy's name wasn't Tom. It was really close there. He could be running around, ruining the name of Tom. Josh Gallowwood, you like to talk about the crypto queen, the Ben token or Mark Cuban changing his mind about bananas. Yeah, I mean, I back in the day was spent a lot of time warning people about one coin. It would be, you know, these like, you know, Bitcoin meetups and you get all these newbs coming. Oh, man, if you had one coin, it's going to be the next Bitcoin and I'd be like, don't do it, don't do it. And there was a few really good, we even have this open source letter that was just like, hosting a get-hub to say, hey, one coin is, you know, it's this total scam. Like, you know, people can call all sorts of things scams and I think it's important. Why the word scam is important, not to just throw any technological project that is in Bitcoin, it's because people start to say, oh, you know, people are calling Ethereum a scam and there's a lot of like, sure, you might think economically, it's not sound or whatever, but there's like literal, literal scams where they're just creating a scam to scam people and one coin was an absolute version of this. And so there's a spectrum of scam and one coin was like at the extreme end of total and utter scam from the beginning of not not working on anything, not just not building anything and making huge shows, huge stadium shows. And this woman is obviously just a front. It was probably a massive mafia behind the scenes. She's absolutely gone dead. She is not, I believe, I have no proof for that, but I can imagine she got off this flight and Ryanair and just that was the end of her. But yeah, for the government's Caesar assets, well, duh, I mean, you have one job, government, you know, one true job. Anyway, yeah, I think that it's come so late, like it's unbelievable that it's taken this long, you know, when the war in between Russia and Ukraine broke out, they froze all of these oligarch assets. Okay, so what you're now only freezing this woman's stuff, but anyway, so yeah, my thought is it's crazy that it's taken this long, but she's dead. If you have to take a last airplane flight, I'd hate for you to take it on Ryanair. But what I thought was so interesting about one coin is that they didn't launch through the traditional crypto channels. They didn't have a white paper. They didn't have representatives on this or other shows trying to sell it to us. They launched through multi-level marketing. So they had all these guys who usually do the juice master and the fancy thing that you know vitamins or whatever it's going to cure you. And they had them out there selling one coin and Christopher Rose and Jonseth, Demak and the Dated, such a good job recording these guys. They snuck in, they had a little pen hidden in their pocket. They were secret cameraing and they recorded the entire thing. And it was just like MLN, they're like, my cousin invested. He made so much money. My friends invested and it was so sad for these people. Not only did they have to invest a minimum of 10K, they then told them as if it was easy to go out to their friends and get their friends to also invest 10K. So you can imagine how bad it was if you lost your money and then you lost your buddies money and your mother's money and your cousins money and just a disaster on families. And again, they had no tools to fight against this. They were at the MLM. Everybody else was investing. For all you know, they're all fakes. It's a room pool of fakes. All investing, you know, the only real money to you. And as the guy famously said in one of Chris's and Jonseth's video, he said, I know it in my knower. I know it in my knower that one coin is going up. Jimmy Song, what do you think about one coin, the Ben token and of course Mark Cuban suddenly on our side? Well, so I've been paying attention to Mark Cuban for some time and you know, the thing that really sort of like put up a red flag was that he sold the majority of his stake in the Mavericks earlier this year. Now, if you know any billionaires, they are all trying to buy sports franchises. This is like the thing that they want more than anything else because there's a very strict and scarce supply of these things and you're in the club if you buy one of these. So for hint to sell means that he's probably deeply financially distressed. He did manage to make it so that most of his stake was sold, but he still got to run the team or whatever. But again, if you know any billionaires or rich people, this is like their ultimate like thing that they want to buy is a sports sports theme. So for hint to sell it tells me that he made some pretty bad bets and he got into crypto. He was selling out NFTs and so on. I think he lost his shirt and and this is sort of like the moment of okay, like I need to I need to get something else to make my money back and this is sort of like the gambler's fallacy allegedly, right? Jimmy. He allegedly lost his shirt. Yeah, I mean, that's my gut gut feeling, right? And he's trying to make the money back and he's promoting crypto or whatever. He probably has some back somewhere and he thinks this is his way to get back because honestly, I don't think he's been doing that well. I did read about him like selling a bunch of other properties too. Like something happened with this guy. He's selling he sold a bunch of his stake in the Mavericks and he's coming around to this because this for him is some other grift and he wants to make you know, get back to sort of like the status that he has as a rich person or whatever. But that's my gut feeling with this guy. Don't I mean, don't quote me on it necessarily, but that's what I think is happening. I just think it's sad because people like Cuban, especially someone that's allegedly technological like Cuban, we needed them back in the day back in the day when they were insulting Bitcoin and we had no heroes and we had no Michael Sailor. We had no one to defend us. We weren't on every stock market. We didn't have ETFs all of this. We needed people like Mark Cuban who are technological who are well off who were investors, even in the Shark Tank show publicly on television. We needed them to say good things about Bitcoin and they didn't. So in all his disappointment, disappoints me when you have him on video saying Bitcoin's are like bananas, you're a moron for investing and now he's like it's a reserve asset. It's incredible. It's the investment of a lifetime as like if only you'd been here in the beginning and he didn't have to say negative things about it. He could have said, I don't know that much about it. We're going to see in the future instead. He went on the negative thing. Let's go to the exit question Ben Archer. Is there any issue you didn't get to talk about that you want to talk about now of the last three? Yeah, the the banana guy. Good for him. It has changed his mind. We did say we'd welcome back Roger Veer. Why not welcome back Mark Cuban? I don't care. I went to a Maverick's game once. It was super fun. I can't complain. Josh Shagalla, any of the issues you didn't talk about Ben, Mark Cuban and the crypto queen. Yeah, I mean Cuban. He sold Yahoo just in time. Was it Yahoo that he? Yes. I passed that time. Yeah, he sold it to Yahoo and then he sold it to Yahoo before the original.com crash. It was an amazing exit. Yeah. It was like an early like internet radio company or something like that. Was he like he said he's the guy in Silicon Valley, the radio guy? He did originally. I think it's he was illegally broadcasting college football games and college basketball games. Maybe radio, maybe video, but he was one of the first to say, hey, I can hook this up and he did it. And then he sold it to Yahoo and I don't think they ever used his technology or his licensing or anything. He had the name broadcast.com is obviously very cool, but I think they just redirect it to Yahoo. But that was that in the in the TV show, the Silicon Valley. That was that guy, the three comic hydrant, but him and he was like his his claims of fame was he put radio on the internet and it made him a billionaire. And I think it's probably based on this guy. A little bit of that, but that could also be Sean Fanning and Napster or one of those guys because they also that was radio radio on the internet. But what do you think Josh more on the bananas or go ahead? Yeah, I mean, you know, first of all, bananas is crazy because video, I don't know, he's gonna bother talking about that. But he, you know, he definitely timed the market extremely well. So maybe the Mavericks is the cell. Well, maybe he was just lucky once. That's right. And Jimmy Song, any of the issues you didn't get to talk about, you'd like to put more on. Go ahead. Well, the the two other things like that one coin lady and BitBoy, I mean, it's it's funny because like we're sitting here in 2024 and we're looking back at these guys that we're doing like these all coin pumps and stuff like that. And most of these influencers are gone. The people that are left are pumping mean coins at this point. It kind of tells you where the all coin industrial complex has gone. It used to be back in the day. Oh, you're going to you're we're going to be better than Bitcoin and we have all this technology and we're going to, you know, change this industry or whatever. But like the narrative has shifted so much that everyone knows that these people are lying, right? It's it's to a point where it's like, okay, the only thing that we're going to pump at this point are mean coins. And we're we're going to we know it's a scam. Everyone knows it's a scam. But at least we're honest about it and it'll it'll pump and dump much quicker. So you don't you don't like hang around and hope that you you get back some of the money or whatever. It's a lot more honest now. But it it is kind of funny how it used to be that way with one coin where you know, you had all these promises and wealth and all that stuff. Instead, you have people now that are eyes wide open, right? Like they they know that they're going into a mean coin, hoping for the pump sell at the right time. It's all a casino at this point. It is funny. It used to be blockchain, not Bitcoin. And it was utility and smart contracts and all that. Now, like you're saying, it's we put a dog on the coin. Or if you want to take a risk, we put a cat on the coin. Now it's cat versus dog. Ben, did you have more on this? Not that. All right. Well, I think we're running out of time. We're going to go to predictions or story of the week. Ben, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week going right back to you? Yeah, I had a lot of fun this week. So I was away for the past couple of weeks. We went to Honduras to Prosper to have free savings. I will look at that at school. But the what's since getting back, we've just been grinding hard and doing some great things in Alan Bitts. And what's got me really excited. And this is what I love this show. And I love the fact that we have like such a small group of people who watch it. But they're like, they're our family. And we can we can talk about these things, which is not really released yet. We're not really announced it yet. But we can talk about it. And as long as I'm on tell, anyone else, I'm a keyboard is a secret. I can talk openly about it. But man, the stuff we've been working on this week. So DNI, who works in Alan Bitts, who also works on bolts. And something we've been working on for a while. And it's just about ready to merge is so you know with Alan Bitts, obviously you can have like a dozen different funding sources. So it means that if you switch out a funding source, it doesn't change the way you're operating your Alan Bitts install. Or if you've built into a stack, you don't have to like refactor code or anything. So it's very useful for that. But we have like, you know, nodes and custodial services and then manage stuff like Phoenix, green light, those sorts of things. But we've we've now built bolts as a funding source. So what you can have is you can have a liquid wallet funding your Alan Bitts. And then you're using Alan Bitts and using, you know, lightning, but payments are instantly entrustlessly swapped out with these atomic swaps on bolts into your liquid wallet in and out. So it means that you can have you can run an Alan Bitts and you can have a like a kind of non custodial liquid solution. But you don't have to run a node. So that's the extreme exciting. And DNI has done an amazing work on that. And then the other thing I've been working on as well, because I've been getting a bit bolts. See, we've got because we've got a bolts extension. So if you have like, this is another solution. So if you're using somebody else's Alan Bitts, you can minimize your risk profile by just getting the bolts extension to look at a wallet and when there's like a couple hundred dollars in that wallet, you just get it to loop out to your on-chain address. So that's very useful. Now we've got the bolts funding source. The other thing I've been doing is I've been fixing up the fossa, the FOS ATM. And on that bolts theme, now this is fucking so cool. Honestly, I think we've made something amazing here. So it's an offline ATM where you get an Alan Bitts draw, unique Alan Bitts draw, and then you scan it, you get the funds on Lightning. Alan Bitts has a four-back scheme. So you can put URL before the Alan Bitts in the QR code. So if you scan it with your Lightning wallet, you get the funds. However, now if you scan it with a regular QR code scanner and then open the link, it takes you to the page and you can give it an Alan address, you can give an Alan your own pay to get the Lightning, you can get the funds through an Alan your own withdrawal or you can withdraw a liquid or you can withdraw on-chain. So now our little ATM can do on-chain and liquid, but it's like the first date, so if you think about ATMs, you have to have a hot wallet, like an on-chain hot wallet, in running somewhere which is exposed and has a risk. Whereas with this, we have a trustless atomic Bolt swap when they pull out the funds. So it's an ATM doing on-chain and liquid where you don't have to have a hot wallet. It just does it through the Bolt stack and it's so fucking cool because this is a fucking $300 ATM, $250 ATM, you can make it yourself and it can do on-chain and liquid. These things have not been released but we've just been working on them all week and they're like, you know, next week they'll be released and we've already got a bunch of people who are interested in that Bolt's funding source and I can't wait to take the ATM to re-get show people because it's sick. That's what we be doing. Sounds great Ben, they can check that out at lnbits.com. Yeah, I've also made some four little videos as well, like four little snazzy videos on the EllenBits YouTube to explain what EllenBits is if anyone wants to watch them, they're like 30 seconds long each. Sounds great, let's go to Josh Shagalla prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead Josh. Yeah, it just came back from Europe which is really nice. By the way, Ben, awesome work. Love it, fantastic. I really can't wait to test it out. It's absolutely amazing. Always working such cool stuff and Prospera's really cool project. The Patrick Friedman is on our advisory board and he's a cool guy, the grandson of obviously the Friedman legacy and I really love the idea of startup cities. I think they're really cool. I think it's just an awesome project. Have you got there yourself? It's a Prospera. I haven't made it and it's really important. I was very pleasantly surprised because I had a few reservations going in but all of them kind of squashed. It was good. They treated the staff well and everything. It was a nice environment. Yeah. Awesome. That's really cool. I definitely want to make it there. I'm just having a young family. It's hard to travel too much. But I did come back from Spain just now and it's been really nice time away from keyboard and now I'm back. What's going on at the standard.io Josh? Are you still kicking it? We're working just really hard on the next version. You know, we talked about rap bitcoin before. That's one of the things that will allow us to lock up that and allow people to earn new but adding that into Dexas. It's the original rap bitcoin which is still quite dangerous mechanisms. I'm actually really want to see more work done on trustless rapping of bitcoin if that's even possible. Not sure. Very cool. And of course, we want to welcome Jimmy Song back to the show. Thanks so much, Jimmy, for doing the show. It's been a long time and do you have a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead, Jimmy. Yeah, I think the story of the week for me is the three billion big data breach from the national public data. This is pretty much everyone's social security number was leaked to the public. So now everyone is more or less poned. And you know, if you're asking, there's only like 340 million people in the United States. How do they have three billion records? Well, a lot of these records are redundant. So great. Now they know for sure that your social security number is a, b or c or whatever it is. So that to me is like the perils of trusting third parties. And this isn't actually even a third party that you might know. It's just that they collect data from all kinds of other companies. Third parties that you previously trusted and they managed to collect all of this into one database that got leaked in April. And it was a so far several million dollars. And then now it's like completely public apparently. So yeah, good job, guys. Yeah. And yeah, this is this is why we like Bitcoin and Noster and things like that. All right. As far as my stuff, this is a book that I released about a year ago. This is Fiat ruins everything. You know, it talks about all kinds of different, you know, incentives that are changed by Bitcoin, including at the individual company nation and global levels and how they screw up all kinds of stuff and get through. It's probably the longest book I've written. And so, you know, it started as sort of like a bunch of columns for Bitcoin magazine. And then, you know, I've added a bunch of stuff and collated a bunch of stuff and changed a bunch of stuff. But that's that's my book. I was published about a year ago. In fact, I think it's right around the one year anniversary of its release today. So, but yeah, that's that's what I'm up to. Well, that sounds great. Congratulations, Jimmy. And everyone should check out the book. That's also horrifying to hear about this. The social security numbers as everyone knows here in the States that's mainly used as your backbone password when you call your phone company or you call your bills or whatever you have to prove who you are. You have your magical string of numbers. And that would be really horrific if everyone's numbers are leaked. It's also worth noting this week that Google was declared a monopoly. I don't know what's going to happen. Remember, Microsoft was previously declared a monopoly and they decided not to split them up. But it is exciting stuff happening in the anti-trust type field with Google being declared a monopoly. So thanks to everybody for joining us. Be sure to give us a thumbs up down below and subscribe if you haven't already. Leave us a comment or say hello in the chat. Give us a wave. And until next time, bye bye.