The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 years, the sharpest citoties, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Hey, hey, happy Friday, everyone. Josh Shagalla from thestander.io. Oh, I hallo there. I didn't see you coming. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Founders and CEO of cryptocurrency mixing service arrested and charged with money laundering and unlicensed money transmitting offenses. Samurai wallet, Keon Rodriguez and William Lonergan Hill have been charged with operating samurai wallet, which the US government says is an unlicensed money transmitting business that has executed over $2 billion in unlawful transactions and laundered more than $100 million in criminal proceeds. Dan Eve, what do you think about the sudden indictment, extradition and arrest of the samurai wallet founders? Well, I mean, to start with, it does seem like they were treading on thin ice by having material, marketing material to say, you know, how the benefits of using their system could be for a list of activities, for example. So I think that might have been, you know, the part of the reason why they were, they were caught caught on compared to other other mixing services. But the fact that they've said it's they didn't have a money transmitted license is interesting, right? Because isn't Bitcoin still not considered as money in the US? So how can you be considered having required a money transmitting license when you're not transmitting money because Bitcoin's apparently not money. It's a commodity. So that's an interesting one. I'd like them to sort of find out what the reason is behind that, right? It can't be both. It can't be the quantum level whichever one they wanted to be. It's either one or the other. It's money or a commodity. But it's sad, right? It's not a bad day for for Bitcoin's privacy. People want privacy in their financial transactions. We've seen this CDBC on the verge of coming in where they can put a social score to your bank balance and reject you from getting your packet of Christ, you know, if you haven't, you know, said your daily prayers to class to class Schwab and Co. So yeah, so we're looking quite crazy isn't it? So we kind of would like our financial privacy and it's a shame that again, they go after all these crypto founders where were all these for money laundering. Where's where's you know the head of HSBC? Well, eight, nine hundred million dollars money laundered. Where where do they go? Do they go to the jail? No one knows. They know. Grisjeel for the traditional banking system. They just seem to go after all the will crypto services is pretty pretty sad, really. It does seem like a quantum problem, as you said, Dan, the IRS says that Bitcoin is property so they can tax it under capital gains tax. The FBI says it's money so they can arrest you for money transmission. So it does seem like it's both things, whichever benefits the government at that time. And I do think they made a huge mess with their marketing advertising that they were going to profit off of elicit activity, even informing their investors and saying, hey, you investors, you too could profit off of the elicit activity that we're encouraging. And I think that part of that is not just the marketing, but the way they set up their system from the beginning where from what I've read of the document from the DOJ, Samurai Wallet was taking a cut from these mixings. So while many people are saying, yes, they didn't send the money themselves. It was the users using the software that caused the problem if they designed the software so that they take a cut, especially a cut of these wonderful anonymous transactions that you can use to buy anything you want on the internet. They're taking a cut of drug dealing, money laundering, child trafficking, murder, execution, anything. You have no idea what you're taking a cut of as incredibly dangerous along with the marketing materials. I do want to know, though, for those interested in World Crypto Network history that we have interviewed Samurai Wallet, not very many people have done this before. We did this in 2018 at HCPP with Max Hillbrand and myself. You can see the Samurai person in a mask with a hat on. You can't see their face all that. And we interviewed them again in 2019 with Dan Eave right there on the couch with me again at HCPP in 2019. So it's very cool if you check out World Crypto Network and the Archives. And if you can spell Samurai the wrong way that I spelled it twice, maybe you can find it. We're going to look into the spelling of the words samurai after this episode of Victoria Jones. What do you think about Samurai Wallet suddenly busted suddenly not so private anymore? Yeah, I mean, I can understand why it's an issue that will worry a lot of Bitcoiners, you know, obviously a personal privacy is a big issue for all of us. One of the things I often say when we're discussing the same issue at conferences is that the problem we've got at the moment is that the government want all the secrecy and they expect us to be transparent. And what we want Bitcoin to do is kind of flip the narrative, you know, because the base layer is transparent, that gives us the opportunity to, you know, have more transparency over what governments are doing. You know, individuals who are more vulnerable, especially when they operate as individuals, then it's important that they have privacy, you know, there are certain domestic situations where it's really important that some, you know, things are kept private, you know, if you've got a woman in a violent marriage, for example, you know, maybe the only way in which she can escape is by keeping her finances private and collecting some money on the side so that she can escape. You've got refugees who've only been able to escape from their countries because they've got a means of keeping their income private and crossing borders and so, you know, having private transactions is a really important facility for us to be providing. However, having said that, you know, there are legal laws and there are also moral laws and if you're deliberately poking the bear to say, you know, it doesn't matter what you do, we can, we can do this, we can break your legal laws, but if you're not breaking them in order to uphold a moral law, you're really kind of getting into some tricky territory. You know, there are natural laws that say it's not a good thing to encourage criminals or facilitate what they do or help them out and say to actually deliberately advertising advertise that that's who you want to help. I think was definitely a known goal. I mean, the thing is, you know, a lot of us in Bitcoin, a lot of us Bitcoin is in Bitcoin because we want to help make the world a better place, but if you're using that tool to try and encourage the darker size of humanity, then I think someone needs to be able to do that. I think it's just to call you to account and as much as, you know, we aboard the US legal system, you know, may well be a case of the pot calling the kettle black because there are a lot of people pointing out, you know, where, where they're participating in illegal activities. At the same time, you know, I was always taught growing up that two wrongs don't make a right and so, you know, to be more criminal than the criminals does not seem like a good strategy. It is very much a moral issue as you're saying, Victoria, where morally we want privacy. We want private transactions. But when you advertise or put into your pitch deck that if you want a profit with our company, we're going to use the gray market, we're going to use the illicit market like you're saying, which could be something harmless like a marijuana sale or it could be somebody kidnapping somebody, which is very harmful. It could be an assassination. We have no idea what this money is used for. So it's very hard for them to stand on the moral issues where we're all together on the moral issue. We want the privacy, but it's that profit that got in the way. It's that company thing. They kind of mix the startup with the moral issues and then they went out and raised money on these pitch decks. And like you're saying, Victoria, sometimes there is a need for private transaction. We have this thing right now where all cars are kind of going digital and they're going to have a choice soon where they can say, let's lock this pedometer. Let's say you can't go over 80 miles an hour, 100 kilometers an hour. And most of the time that's fine because people are speeding because they're lazy. They're in a hurry. They're late. They're bored. They don't care. They have a fast car. They like speeding. Whatever it is, there's a lot of good fun reasons for speeding, right? But like you're saying, when it comes down to an emergency, your wife's pregnant, you have to get to the hospital. Your friend has been shot. Somebody's bleeding to death. You have this reason to go faster. And like you're saying in the many examples, there's sometimes a reason for privacy, but what they did the pitch deck and the advertising is really hard to defend. Josh, Legala, what are your thoughts on samurai wallet being taken in by the US government today? Yeah. Okay. So first of all, it's, it's a weird charge because they haven't transmitted any money. The wallet is a coin join, which is protocol level, but they haven't touched any, any funds. Like any service you can create it and make it split off some to you. I mean, you've got personal, you've got to pay, you've got to do things like that. So you've got to, yeah, I mean, obviously, if you make something, you want to get paid for it. So I don't see that as a problem. But privacy in money is really important. I mean, there's a reason why you don't go telling everyone how much money you've got. It's normal. It's not, it's a weird world we live in where we've suddenly working up and said, you can name all of the bad things in the world. You can just name them and say, that's what you're allowing to happen. It's like, no, that happens. Anyway, and money, sure, you want to stop all that stuff happening. You want to stop all that stuff happening, but that comes down to police work and about, you know, stopping them, you, you're stopping a good form of money is punishing the 99.9% of people that actually use it a good for the few tiny, tiny minority. Look, I doubt that there were many criminals using that service. I really doubt it because if you're a criminal that's half worth half your anything, you probably want to use Monero instead because it's just far more secure than a coin join. There's other, like, if you have a business, you don't want your customers to know how much your stock was or where you bought the stock from because your customers will just bypass you as a business and go to the cheaper thing or your stock is. Or if they can't because it's only a bulk buying place where you get the stuff from like, I don't know, you're selling mugs or whatever, then they'll, then they know how much you bought it from, then they get pissed off because you might be charging too much or whatever it is. So the secrecy is also important for employees. Sure, you might have a system where it's a gallotary and everybody knows how much everyone's getting paid, but I can tell you it doesn't work because maybe you brought someone on and and paying them something and then someone else comes along and they're demanding something more and then you find out that they're actually worse than the other person. You have to renegotiate and you have to like there's so many reasons why you don't want every time you pay something that everyone can see exactly what you're doing. It's just stupid, but instead we go around the world, so go around all the time and everyone does this and says, you know, child exploitation, kidnapping, all, you know, and it's like, well, yeah, that's terrible. Of course, ban it, ban it. Like cash is even more transparent, sorry, more secretive. So what should we just ban all cash? It's not a good starting place. We need, we need privacy and money. It's just part of having good currency is having that layer of privacy. And yeah, I don't, I just don't think that Samurai is anything evil. I think what's happening right now is there's a massive witch hunt. We've got CZ get pulled down. He'd never stole any funds. We've got Samurai now. We've got a whole bunch of stuff in the news. That's basically a take down now that we've got custodial ETF ETFs and Michael sailors all happy the actual functionality of peer to peer electronic cash that is cash, meaning it should be there should be a layer of privacy there. It's going away. And I guess this is what everybody was scared of that when these ETFs started coming out that more and more institutions would just come in and you take down anything that might have a sniffing of of a lizard or untraceability because obviously you can trace everything when it comes to the ETF that the ETF is not a scaling solution. You know, as much as big the big boys want to say it is it's it's not and yeah, so I don't know. I'm pretty pretty sad about it. I think it's a it's a bad thing for Bitcoin. I don't think we should equate everything to all this evil that's in the world that does need to be dealt with obviously. But dearly we have to deal with it in a better way than just delete it like deleting the ability of every good person on earth to do any good like you know banning shoes because robbers run away with wearing shoes while wearing shoes. You know, you just don't ban shoe. Yeah, but he will do us wear shoes. Stupid argument is a dumb argument. Sorry to us. With all the ETFs are you know a kind of a scaling solution. I've seen that as well for Bitcoin and surely then you could argue that like exchanges of scaling solutions for Bitcoin and they argue that. Yeah, I mean, it's good to have gone down a rabbit hole there itself. Right. It's like. Yeah. Oh, your key is not your coin's ultimately right that you know scaling needs to be decentralized. Yeah. Yeah. I do think you're right though, Josh, that they've developed this new way for you to own Bitcoin. You can own Bitcoin coin base or you can order it in one of these ETFs. And any other way of owning Bitcoin is kind of sus, right. We're going back to the old pirate Silk Road days, right. Or you're like, oh, you're into Bitcoin. Oh, you mean not the ETFs, not the coin base that dirty stuff that happens outside of the exchanges. You know, we don't know what's happening. And I do think we're going into that. And again, I do think we're going to have this time where sadly most of the Bitcoiners turn against Bitcoin. Bitcoin has become too corporate and Bitcoin is just advertising talk now. And I'm into you know, Z coin and Y coin and Z Y coin and all these other new things that are hyper and slicker. But again, I don't think that Bitcoin changes. I think that all these people, you know, they take Bitcoin and they say it's our CNBC Bitcoin. Now it's our, you know, sailor Bitcoin. It's our ETF Bitcoin. And all the while Bitcoin just kind of stays the same and just keeps clicking along. And then eventually they realize that they can't control this and that they can't keep everyone in the ETFs and all this other stuff is happening. And then all the Bitcoin people come back and we're happy again. But I don't know. I can't do that. Right. I don't know. I really see the ults as an actual decentralized scaling solution for the idea of money. Yeah, it might not scale Bitcoin itself. But if Bitcoin becomes, you know, two, three, four hundred dollars of transaction. You know, I mean, we used to laugh and make memes about Western Union, got sting five bucks to send 50s at 10% what a big coin's 10 cents or five cents or three cents or less than a cent. Now 50 bucks. Like it's literally 50 bucks to transaction. So it needs to scale. Well, there needs to be a scale. Yeah, lightning is an option that that's great. And then the other way is to use an option in other ways, but they're also different chains. Like RSC is a different chain. These side chains are a different chain. So. And if we don't scale, then the exchanges do become the scaling solution. So we will have a two tiered Bitcoin because just and I see the same thing with self driving cars. What do you want to drive your own car? You were terrorist. Are you a terrorist because you could kill someone if you drive your own car. So okay, but we all used to all drive our cars. Yeah, what wow. Yeah, I can't believe you're going to drive into a Christmas market. You sicko. Like, you know, like this is the this is the sort of thinking. And this is what will probably happen is that anyone that wants to deal with normal Bitcoin is is automatically labeled a terrorist. And going back to some of your other arguments, Josh, about the privacy. We have all these really clever sayings. And they're almost like little bumper stickers and sometimes they're a shortcut to thinking. And one of them that people say is sunshine is the best disinfectant. And it's this idea that privacy is always bad and public things are always good. But as we know in the United States from James D'Angelo's great work on this in the 70s Nixon overturned private voting for Congress. And everyone said, oh, this is great. The sunshine is coming in. It will disinfect. But what it's actually done is it's given the lobbyists an accurate count of who votes for and against their bill. So in the past, the lobbyists would pay you and they pay this guy and they don't know how you're voting. Don't know if they're getting a good deal. But now they know. So it's actually increased the power of the lobbyists while it has this sunshine, which is supposed to save us this openness. But it's actually failed. And it's really easy and you just look at anything that Nixon did kind of assume it might be bad. But then you have a lot of things to go through. But yes, things like that where the bumper sticker says sunshine is the best disinfectant. But in reality, we grow a whole plate full of moldy lobbyists that conquer and take over everything. And we're underestimating like things aren't just a vacuum. There are other things that will come in and take over. But I think we've gone pretty far on this issue. We're going to go to the exit question. Forced prediction, predict the future. Dan Eve, the samurai wallet founders, innocent or guilty. Oh, man. That's a tough one. It depends. It depends what of, right? I mean, I hope they're innocent. I think I hope that this is going to be a win for privacy and a win for Bitcoin in general. So yeah, but hopefully, hopefully, they'll be okay. But I've got a feeling that there's definitely prosecution season right there going open hunting. So, which man, imagine, imagine what the financial world would be like if they did that in the existing world. Especially after all the, the sort of big crisis of 2007, 2008, maybe things would be different now. It does seem that still none of the people from the financial crisis have been taken to prison. There's been no in vet, no arrests. I mean, I check the paper every day, no arrests. We're still waiting. Victoria, John's, what do you think innocent or guilty? Well, I mean, I have to say some of their tweets mentioned in the article were a bit of an own goal, weren't they? I mean, you know, talk about going, hey, guys, come and get me. They were just asking for trouble. And, you know, in terms of being a money transmitter, I mean, you could argue that anyone who runs a nightning node, you know, on the base of the fact that you collect nightning fees could be a money transmitter. So how far do you take it? I mean, they're, you know, they're the US government's ability to prosecute this to the end goal is pretty limited. But of course, often in these scenarios, they'll, they'll aim for, you know, the low hanging fruit in order to, you know, make a point and hopefully scare people off temporarily. So I think it will be a good talking point. I think if they are prosecuted, it's their own city fault for being quite so blatant about wanting to encourage, you know, the nefarious activities they're doing because regardless of whether they used it as a money or not. The fact that they were prepared to advertise that they wanted to encourage that kind of activity in my book is someone needs to call them to account for that. So, you know, I think on that basis, they, they deserve to be prosecuted. But I think in the fullness of time, Bitcoin will be fine. Well, and it's very interesting how it's one thing to write a journal or an article or to espouse that you have a political view or you have a belief on privacy. But it's another thing to actually write the code that goes with that belief when they chose to do that, they should have thought about where they were on the earth. And I haven't looked at the details by zoom there in an extradition country that has a deal with the US where if you break the law bad enough, you'll get busted by the US. And I think everyone knows this is a possibility going back to the alleged dread pirate Roberts Ross Olbrecht who was in the United States despite the fact that his family owned a home in Costa Rica, which isn't great, but would have been better. As they said in the Zao Tongqang song, maybe next time you won't be on our shores, but that lesson keeps not getting learned. And if you're in an extradition country, such as in the EU or anyone else who has massive trade agreements with the United States, it's likely that you'll be extradited if you break the law enough. The pirate party is a good example, I think they haven't been extradited. The pirate bay, the founders of that haven't been extradited. The same thing though, but they're maybe just breaking copyright law, which as Josh said, you can't expand copyright law necessarily to child kidnapping or murder or any of the other dangerous crimes, which you could say generically, if you have money, you can buy horrible things. But Josh, a goal you're the last vote innocent or guilty. I think Starship, Shreddinger's destiny here in the chat makes a good point, probably be a little bit of a settlement there or something, but yeah, I technically I don't think that they can win because they just would never transmitting any funds. The protocol does it and they just wrote the code that the protocol can use a coin joint. I mean, it's not there was not one single cent that went through their hands that laundered. So yeah, and yeah, just to play devil's advocate here though, Josh, like if they took fees, I don't know how it set up, but let's say you want to have a world pool or a coin joint, you have to pay five bucks and you use your world pool to have financial privacy. Somebody else uses it for a list of means we have no idea. We're just selling you world pools. I think it's fees. It's the fees that leads to a problem here. Yeah, it could be. It could be. And I, you know, I'm no lawyer, but I know the Americans have fun digging around in the weeds, their technical weeds. So I think that's probably where they'll want to dig around in those technical technicalities. Absolutely. You think of the equivalent of having a hotel room, like, but, but not having privacy in the hotel room. It's like you can have a hotel room, but you can't have privacy. Just in case you're doing some of the illegal. So we need to what make sure that you're not doing anything. It's like that, right? It's like. Yeah, you can have a hotel room. It's just a glass door and no curtains. Yeah, it's about the design of the hotel room. And I think with this as with the Silk Road, it gets back to this crack house defense where people were basically renting out their houses to bad people and the houses were becoming crack houses. And they're like, we need a way to punish the person that's renting out the house. So what they said when they took down Ross Obrecht and I don't know, agree or disagree with that. One of the things they said is that when he set up the Silk Road, he set it up as a crack house, right? It had all these secret compartments and all these like hidden things you'd use for smuggling and all these systems where it's set up like that. And sadly, I think Samurai Wall, it's going to be painted in the same way. And mainly I think that it's because what I'm saying with Josh is that it's the fees because they made money on the elicit activity. They become guilty for part of the elicit activity. Maybe if they didn't have the fees, they could say, well, we didn't profit, but then it goes back to these marketing materials and the pitch deck and whatever else they have where they say, yeah, we plan to profit on elicit activity, which is just a horrible thing. If you're typing that in your pitch deck right now, erase that. Like, it's right something else. Like, you can't provide the same. Even if you're in like Russian somewhere, I mean, I feel that might be propaganda from the DOJ because there's, I understand that someone would actually market, hey, do a legal drug, do illegal things and send it through us. I think you're underestimating like they're kind of idea of freedom or they're like belief in libertarianism. And I imagine if you're in somewhere else in the world, you're not in the United States and just kind of mouthing off and you're just kind of, you know, it's like almost a teenager, like a child life belief in privacy where you're like privacy is so good, you could even use it for money laundering and we don't care. And they just went down a slippery slope that way and I'm sure that the slides and everything else will come out in the trial if it is as they say, Josh. So we'll see. But yeah, it just seems like I think they're kind of young guys and they had an idealistic belief in the freedom and stuff. And then they went on this way towards raising money and profiting and it got all mixed up. And I can understand them saying something that they believe in like if they believe that you should be able to buy and sell drugs, then they might say, you know, you can do that. And that's illegal. So then, yeah, I don't know. I'd have to see the marketing material. I just find it hard if they actually have provided a few tweets so far. And the tweets are, you know, it's kind of ironic, like hipster marketing. It's like kind of in your face. I forget the details, but somebody was busted for doing something illegal and they were like, we welcome all these new people as samurai wallet customers. And so it's kind of a joke. But, you know, it doesn't have these jokes and they stack. The rational guard. Yeah, the Russian oligarchs. That was. They were they were suggesting that the Russian oligarchs could lose use their services to circumvent US sanctions. And that's something that seems like a fun tweet at the time. And you're like, this will be funny. And my buddies will like it. But in the clear light of day with the illegality potentially illegality of this project, it's just a bad tweet. It's just and there's a series of these where I think like you're saying, just they felt very free. These guys had true freedom in their head. But it was a very small zone. You know, it wasn't the whole world that was free. It was just. But I don't think it's a illegality of their product. It was that other people could do illegal thing. It's not illegal to for us to put a whole bunch of Bitcoin into one pot. It's just not illegal. It's not there's nothing anywhere that says that that's not allowed. It's strange, but I think it comes down to it. Things beforehand with that coin and then adding those coins in even, you know, it's the thing that they're doing that's illegal. Like the people if they're you know kidnapping or whatever some of the bad things. But a lot of people just want privacy from the big from the Bitcoin. They just want privacy. And that's that's also. I think it's all it's all about how you set up the service. If you set it up as like random Satoshi generator. And it's a big spinning wheel like you're saying Josh and you're like, I put my money in. I get other money out. And that's it. And there's no marketing and there's no like pitch deck and there's no Twitter account saying kind of sensationalist stuff. And you just if you market it you market it is like we're goofy. We're random. We're random Satoshi spinner. You know, you can spin and get random Satoshi's. I think you might be okay. But you have to think ahead with these kind of things. If you're going to like start a company like allegedly the dread pirate Roberts did to break the law and allow people to trade, you know, drugs for cash in large amounts. You have to think about it a lot more than if you're just going to start a public facing company or just some other company. And I worry that these guys didn't think it out enough. And that if they thought it out. They could have said maybe we should be more generic in our marketing. Maybe we shouldn't have crazy tweets. And we definitely shouldn't have this pitch deck that says like we raise money on illegal transactions. Like that's even if it's true. You can't put that in the pitch deck. Yeah. I mean, I personally I'm not big fan of them because the actual people because they used to really troll the other group. So there's what it's wasabi wallet and really like say nasty things about friends of mine like Vlad and stuff. So I'm not a big fan of them, but I just fundamentally call principles. I just think there's anything wrong with with people wanting privacy in their tokens. And I don't know, you know, a cop will go around any car and find a defect if they want to. So even if you make some goofy side, if they want to make an example of anything, they'll just they'll just say, ah, look, we found one example of some dodgy freak and that's then, you know, and get all the all the anger and everything pointed at that. So it's not, you know, it's the cops will find something on your car. That's just going to that tail light there. Yeah, which is why you don't make an example or give them an excuse to chase you because the thing is until Bitcoin takes over the world and we generally have that freedom, you just have to be aware of the situation that you're in, you know, you're in a vulnerable situation. You know, the you are the government while it still runs the US dollar still has that power, you know, when that's all over. Fair enough. Until that point, use some common sense. Yeah, I think they were living in a future that we haven't reached yet. So it was a rough on them. But yeah, I hope for the best. Like you said, Josh, for wasabi wallet and our good friend Max Hillbrand, who's over there. I know nothing about the company, but I hope I hope for the best for them. I have no idea if they've done something different than samurai wallet and they won't be charged. Or if we're just talking now in a pre wasabi charging phase and they're going to charge all these different things, maybe even going after a manero like you said, Josh. So, but this will be very exciting and we're going to keep covering it right here. So stay tuned. Moving on to exactly moving on to issue two. This is a fun one to El Salvador hackers leak the code of the state Bitcoin wallet Chivo. It started in April when the hackers lease the entire database, which I'm told contained 5.1 million people most of the adult population of El Salvador as they all had to sign up for this wallet to get some free money in the government. And now the hacker group has released the actual code to the wallet. So you could make your own version or you could find a vulnerability or you could make a wall that looked like the Chivo wallet. All kinds of problems here and most of them stem from the government trying to run a software company, which we know is a bad idea, even if you have a dictator at the top, still a bad idea. Everyone loves El Salvador, but we're critical of them. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the El Chivo wallet being leaked by hackers first the database and then the actual source code of the product? Yeah, it's a bit embarrassing, isn't it for the government of El Salvador? You know, there are many of us in the crypto industry who've experienced the negative effects of having your data leaked. Going back to the conversation we've just been having about privacy, you know, once people have access to that information, you know, you get people, you know, if they get access to your email address, you know, the scamming emails, they can send you some of which people 444 and then end up downloading computer viruses. So, you know, it has a, it has a real negative effect when these sorts of things are leaked. And of course it's one of the dangers of centralized organizations trying to manage decentralized currency, you know, really what they should have been focusing on was getting everyone using the lightning network and self custody and, you know, maybe using some of the already established tools and also, you know, if it's a centralized wallet designed by the government, who's to say that there is no back door in the code. So actually, maybe the hackers are doing every one of favor by giving them access to the sort code, because then they've got a chance to actually go in and investigate whether or not it's doing what it says it does. I mean, I know certainly when they first launched the Chivo wallet, they had lots of issues with the users actually using it. And, you know, there are already lots of tools available. So it makes you wonder why the El Salvadorian government had to have their own wallet in the first place. I think maybe it was just designed to help ease the transition and get people used to the technology. But either way, it brings up, it brings up lots of issues. I mean, I, I praise the president for, you know, his motivation in trying to introduce his population to this new freedom technology. And of course, as I said the last time I was on, he's kind of in a bit of a difficult, well, no, it wasn't on here somewhere else. He's in a bit of a difficult situation at the moment because he's trying to manage the world as it exists at the moment to move it into a completely new paradigm. And so that's ultimately going to have some compromises. I mean, ultimately using Bitcoin and Bitcoin being established as a decentralized form of money, you know, will not be able to support governments as they've existed. Up until now. And so, you know, many of the laws and the tools that they're able to fund at the moment may not be possible in the future. So all of the things that are happening at the moment are effectively transition. And, you know, things like this just are a new lesson for people to learn things from. But yeah, certainly in the short term, I think it's a bit of an own goal, really. But, you know, I personally think it's a good thing that the hackers got access to the source code, you know, the biggest danger is back doors in these things from the government. So if they're exposing that good for them. It will be interesting to see if they find a back door that does seem like a very real possibility. I think the government of El Salvador should have just released a language pack like Victoria is saying they should have taken existing software made sure it had the right language. Make sure their people could understand it and not tried to mess with the advanced code of a Bitcoin wallet, which is basically what we said at the beginning. If you rewind and watch some of the old episodes, they took on too much too fast. But as Victoria said, she wonder if they had a reason. I think when they did their rewards, when they gave everybody in the country $20 or $100 or whatever it was, I think they did it through the Chivo wallet. They could have done it in a conservative way where let's say you give the rewards to 100 people, but only 80 of them claim it. Well, you could just keep that other 20% as well for the 80 who claim it. Maybe they don't take it off your platform. So you don't really have to give it to them. There's a lot of interesting accounting that they could start doing if they control the only way that people use Bitcoin in their country. And they could have given out less of these rewards. And then of course, there's like you said, the possibility of the back door and the surprise El Salvador ending that no one believes is coming. But we all know is how many Bitcoin fit in a briefcase. And the answer is all of them, all of them. Josh, should go. What do you think about trouble with the Chivo wallet first, the database, now the actual source code? Who would have thought who would have thought a centralized thing being act and act. It was coming. I've said it multiple times on the show. We've said it multiple times on the show that it's actually only a matter of time until someone else also steals all of their Bitcoin, the whole country's Bitcoin. Because it's a honey pot like it's like an exchange. So you might be holding. And this is again, one of the problems, unfortunately, of the lightning network. You could host your own node, obviously, but most people don't. And especially specifically these sorts of wallets they tap into like a light wallet. They're not tapping into a home node where you're running your own channel. And this is unfortunate. And I've actually lost like a thousand bucks worth of Bitcoin through the lightning network because the wallet just stopped working and went away. And I was like, what? And I'm not used to it in Bitcoin. I'm like, I'm used to my own Bitcoin. So it's it's only a matter of time. And that's really unfortunate. And this is why I don't like Bitcoin as government money. Yeah, the number will make it'll make the number go up. So I like it in that sense. Obviously, we all do it's like ETFs. Wow, great. Make the number go up higher faster. But foundationally and fundamentally, I wouldn't want to be in a country where the government has all this Bitcoin or all my Bitcoin, you know, because that's just not the way it's meant to be. Yeah. So this is not a surprise. It does seem funny, Josh, if a government were to offer you some kind of solution where you'd have Bitcoin, but it would all be held in Coinbase and you could never extract it, but you could send it around. It wouldn't be the same, right? It's not the same as as Bitcoin. It wasn't even though everyone likes the number going up and they're all trading it like it's a stock. It's not why they made Bitcoin, right? No, exactly. And you know, some will say, well, that's a great scaling solution because then, you know, you can send it instantly and it's already pre pre confirmed. But it, there's two things that it stops the 21 million because you don't know how many there are that there's this where fraction reserve comes in this way. You know, banks could just take some gold and then say, well, we've got way more. So we'll issue way more credit. And you know, it's it's it's the perfect way of doing money except it's not it's crap. Well, and it reminds me, Josh, of the fight we had many, many years ago with change tip, everyone comes along and they say, oh, Bitcoin's great, but I could improve it by running it in my database and I'll keep track of it and I'll send it around. And you can trust my database, even if it gets hit, you know, 2,000 times from 100 different servers. It'll be fine. And it wasn't fine. They had problems on their internal database. This was never publicly released, but I've heard from people that yeah, they had problems with the exact kind of things you think they'd have problems with double spends transactions coming in simultaneously, managing people's funds, the complexity and so forth. And they basically just created a system inside a system managing Bitcoin. And in many ways, that's what coin bases, that's what these ETFs are. It's just different people different software people managing the Bitcoin. And that's not really what this is supposed to be about. We've gone very far away from Satoshi and one computer, one minor and all these kind of ideas, but this core idea of actually owning Bitcoin and sending around and using it as a currency. We seem to be getting further and further away from that. Yeah, sorry. Sorry, I've got a puppy just eating everything around. Oh, I'm just trying to like stop stop the puppy from eating everything. Well, it's got a Dan Eve Danny. What do you think they hacked Chivo wallet? They got the database and now they got the source code. Yeah, so obviously it's it's bad, right? You know, but it's happened to to the biggest of them, you know, ledger ledgers. You can still right now you can go and search for the ledger list of like their mailing list and then also there's a separate list of who actually bought the ledger. And so Sony have been hacked Facebook have been hacked. So you're kind of almost it's bad, but you're kind of almost expect it. But I think that Mr Trick there with with the kind of kicking off Bitcoin as you know, being an accepted currency in the country when they could have used like an open source. They could have created an open source lightning wallet and made made a big kind of education kind of thing about it as well. And rather than making it close or so if anything, it's good that it's it's now at least open source. Maybe that's going to be a forcing their hand at making it open source and improving it in general. And maybe that will get more people on board that that didn't like the experience of the wallet first time round. But yeah, ultimately could could move in the right direction of being open source. If like made every modem be run a node so that and and talk people like you said talk people harder get your mobile to sync to your nodes so your node has channel. It's totally custodian it opens up lightning channel and boom, you know, but instead sketchy sketchy wallet. Exactly and I think Dan makes a good point about open source here. There's many reasons to have open source, especially if you're a government. It's like using a library to program you have other people writing your code. It's being checked by other people. You can make small changes. You could have educational things about it. You could look at the code. But then there's one big reason why you wouldn't want that. I think Victoria covered it again. There could be a back door in there. As long as the source is closed source you could have a back door or like Josh is saying you could have a whoopsy. Maybe somebody made it so all the money sends to somebody's brother in Costa Rica. You know, and it just whoopsy we sent all the money because it was written wrong. You know it stack overflow or something right. And that'll be another reason that they use when the money eventually disappears. Like, we wrote it wrong. We put the wrong zero in the wrong place and now all the money's gone. So, but again, we have to wait for that people aren't they're not ready for that future yet. But let's keep moving here. Let's go on to issue three issue three Bitcoin post having the demand is estimated to be five times greater than the supply according to BitFinex. The new Bitcoin added to the market could drop to 30 million dollars per day. This is what we've been talking about when the amount of Bitcoin goes down from six to three. There's much less Bitcoin on the market and there's much more chance of a supply squeeze. Which when they go and they buy up all the Bitcoin on the market and there's none left to buy suddenly that one that's remaining becomes incredibly valuable. We also were watching during the having party we discussed why the blocks might come faster and why people might turn on kind of secret extra mining factories whatever they've got whatever new things they've got to try to get that special having block. It turns out that it turned out really well for the mining company that found it. They sold the first Satoshi of Bitcoins forth having block for 33.3 Bitcoin worth over 2.1 million dollars for a single rare Satoshi. So that markets definitely heating up and that explains the fast blocks that we had. Josh, you got what do you think about post-havening and the possibility of a supply squeeze? There's no it's not a possibility that it's designed by design. It's an absolute so yeah it's huge and the funny thing is so many people used to always say hey but how's there ever going to be enough Bitcoin? There's only 21 million but actually you could run the entire world economy on one Bitcoin because you could just add more zeros. We can go past eight decimal points. It's just we haven't and it's not a big deal to add more decimal points. So that cake can be sliced thinner and thinner and thinner and and that's what will happen because the supply of whole Bitcoin is less but the slices that it can be sliced into is a lot of money. So the slice into is infinite and and I've even seen people that are just so dark and these are like politicians and stuff saying yeah but if you can slice them if you can have infinite amounts of Satoshi's in there then that's inflation. How can you be so fundamentally dumb if you take if you take one cake and you make a billion of the cakes everyone will be sick and tired of tasting your scrappy cakes. They'll be like no no another one of those cakes I can't handle it and so the price will drop because no one will want your cakes anymore because you've just made way too many of those cakes. Now let's turn it around and say you've got one cake and everyone's talking about this cake and you can slice that cake down to the atomic level and people can still taste it. How valuable is that one cake more valuable you fools so so yeah it's it's it's very different and it's amazing and let's see what happens. It really does seem like it's designed to do that Josh and you feel kind of crazy from the very beginning I remember when he went from 25 to 12 and a half Bitcoin for block reward and you're looking at the chart and you're like well it keeps going down and the number of units is locked at 21 million and I believe the programmers are pretty strong about not changing either of those two things and you need a huge consensus then the miners would have to agree and even the users to some point with the nodes would have to agree. And from the very beginning it's just seem like it coin just goes up and there's been all this ups and downs and price this in the triangles and all these charts but I think Josh for you and I looking at this from the beginning you mean the supplies going down and the number of units is fixed well that means that the underlying units going to be for valuable in the future if this system is successful. It's a no brainer it's a no brainer unfortunately though many of us earlier bitcoins big one is we we have to sell because we've got things to do we got you know rent to pay and electricity pay and stuff so it's not always a panacea but yeah it's it's definitely number go down which makes number go up technology. And it does seem obvious from the beginning but yeah I agree Josh it wasn't that easy and you couldn't just say it was worth 50k and pay your rent with it your rent still wanted the actual money in the time period yeah but I love the fact that that was that an order no that Satoshi then. I that's a whole nother question there Josh there's I think ordinals are actually printed on there like the inscriptions like the rooms I guess but this is actually there collecting the rare Satoshi so there's a guy who's going to an exchange and he withdraws a bit coin runs it through his program and he sees if there's any like old Satoshi's and I think this is more of that. Okay. So and it's hard to take is just too much money. There's and there's this belief now like they'll they'll go back and collect other sets from like other historic blocks and they'll say that they're more valuable than other sets because collectors mania the same old thing. Yeah. So does that mean that's a non-fundable. Yes. Yeah well because they have a number on them so part of the what's interesting about I think you've seen this Josh with kiri or cards where for whatever reason ret didn't put a issue number on the kiri or cards so every kiri or card number one looks the same as every other number one you could trade them. But if we done like a lot of the more modern projects or some of the other ones and printed them so that apple number one number two number three I could say apple number one is more valuable in apple number three. And that's what's happening with these Satoshi's because the Satoshi's just as a computer science thing were numbered now these collector people are saying this numbered one is more valuable than this other numbered one despite the fact that atomically they're both Satoshi's right their electrons like they have no difference. But this electron has a lower number so it's more valuable. But yeah this this is the kind of mania that comes after a while to bitcoin and there's only a matter of time before they reevaluate what makes a valuable Satoshi I know already I had people who had you know had transactions with Peter Todd or Adam back and they were like saving those sets they were like special sets. And who knows maybe that's a thing for the future they'll be collecting mad bitcoin Satoshi's or something else I don't know let's go to Dan Eve what do you think Dan if you got a collectible Satoshi and what do you think about the bitcoin post having situation as saying Josh I say oh it's going to double and triple and I tell my friends I feel insane you know not financial advice of course but it really does seem structurally if the supply keeps going down and the amount stays fixed. The price must go up. Yeah yeah the only thing is that is some with each kind of bitcoin harvining epoch though the amount of bitcoin that's that's being reduced is is less significant based on the supply that's already out there right so you know if for example in the first the first epoch where it's 50 per block there was 7200 bitcoin per day. And now we're going down to 450 per day so the impact of that you know the harvining I think is less as time goes on but we're seeing more and more of these crazy use cases which are which are relevant of the actual block reward you know the actual subsidies for mining fees are going through the roof because of ordinal and inscriptions and all these other use cases that people are seeing so we're probably going to see you know that the that the what I don't know what would be cool but almost like the the flipping of what quite soon really of where the the heart of the actual fees for inscriptions and all these other side events side shows are going to be way more than the block reward continuously you know but by a country Mars I think that's not probably not going to be too far away surely the way things are going but yeah I think it's it's it's good to see the bitcoin isn't just hard money there's other use cases for it as well and you know people have been saying for a while that it's been it's great see bitcoin users like a time stamping machine you immortalize an event by hashing it into the bitcoin blockchain and so that's just one other crazy use case and and obviously ordinals and inscriptions are other ones that we're seeing as well and the blocks the blocks that spaces is sacred in bitcoin and it's only going to pump the fees pump the price of bitcoin up even more as people are fighting for that block space as they do on these other chains with their crazy cat and ft is here. It is interesting down that nft is something that no one liked when they came out and ordinals and inscriptions and all these things could be the thing that saves the bitcoin fee market we always talked about what people are going to do when the block reward goes down to less than a bit coin or less than half a bit coin and it turns out at least from the current information we have they're going to collect inscriptions and ruins and ordinals and they're going to keep the network running because it's in the best interest of their collections. Victoria Jones what do you think about the bitcoin post having situation and of course rare and valuable satoshi's. Yes I mean when I wrote my book in 2019 one of the things I commented on well I've got a whole chapter talking about how businesses can handle the change in the value of bitcoin over time because it does seem to have this predictable price cycle based on the harvining and the fact that as a supply goes down you know the demand goes up especially as the pie gets bigger. It's certainly a logical conclusion but a lot of that is based on what bitcoin is valued compared to the US dollar and of course one of the things most bitcoin is our familiar with is the fact that you know we seem to be heading for high inflation with the dollar because of all of the debt that's being printed behind the scenes. And so you know when in an environment of inflation that's absolutely the it is a logical conclusion and I think that's one of the things that feeds the hype of the price. I think one of the things that people are possibly not considering though and I've just my next newsletters going to be about this I'm writing it on bitcoin and inflation and in it I talk about the history of inflation and although many of us are familiar with the fact that bitcoin Nixon took. The US off the gold standard in 1971 by temporarily suspending the convertibility of the dollar that's not the first time in history that that happened actually also happened in 1797 when Britain was fighting the Napoleonic wars and in fact that's actually what gave Britain an advantage when it was fighting with Napoleon and the only way they're able to get back onto their gold standard was because they want an indemnity when the Napoleonic wars were over but if they'd lost the Napoleonic wars that would be a lot of money. That would have literally been the end of the the British Empire because they had completely you know they were really starting to make their currency vulnerable by the fact that they did that. So in order to get back onto the gold standard of one of the things they had to do was withdraw those extra currency units out of the system and in doing that they created a financial panic of 1815 because of course you know if you've if you've inflated the assets with the extra currency units. And people have taken out loans based on the increased value because of these extra currency units when you take the extra currency units out of the situation you automatically put a whole load of people into negative equity. Now they you know the financial analysts talk about the fact that you know the US people who organized the US financial economy will never do that in a million years because it would have too many negative effects but how we know you know just because that's what we've done for the last 40 years. How do we know they're not suddenly going to change their strategy. I mean a lot of people are talking about you know potential gold backing of the US dollar in order to solve some of the problems and interestingly Zimbabwe have just introduced a new gold back to dollar and one of the consequences that is that their stock market has dropped by 99% in the last week. And so you know that is one of the sudden effects you can get from deflation you know and you know we have administrators now who are literally who are literally getting to the stage where they have no other options and he's to say that they couldn't they couldn't pull a dramatic rabbit out of the hat like that which could have an effect and at the moment until Bitcoin becomes a currency is still an asset. And so it could have an equally negative effect on the Bitcoin price now i'm talking about an extreme example here. But I think also we also live in extreme times where anything could happen I mean who predicted that Zimbabwe was going to come out with the gold back dollar and that we would have a 99% impact on their stock market I mean okay that Zimbabwe but no one thought the US dollar was ever going to go into high inflation so. We just live in a time where you just can't you can't predict anything I don't think we're going to be safe with Bitcoin you know now with the tf's as well which is going to. haven't had you know is bringing all sorts of resources into the system which can also have an effect I don't think we're going to have those predictable cycles with Bitcoin now until something happens that breaks the financial system that makes Bitcoin the reserve currency I think we've got a long way to go before that happens. It is a terrible idea for Zimbabwe to introduce a currency that's better than their currency it reminds me of when GM introduced the electric car the EV one but they also had the Hummer the Humvee on their line and they said well this electric car makes our humvee look like a gross polluter we need to get rid of this electric car. And that must have been horrible when it went down 99% it reminds me of the great classic movie that everyone should see idiotic and when they switched from using Gatorade to using water for everything the market went down and as the guy said the computer did that auto lay off thingy we're all fired. So he kind of watch out in the future for what can happen if you change to a superior product but let's keep moving here check out world crypto network calm and we've got all kinds of great shorts with all kinds of great AI generated titles is Bitcoin the future of finance El Salvador's Bitcoin security physical measures versus technical and did coin bases acquisition of Zapo lead to its downfall all kinds of fun videos and more. That world crypto network calm moving on to issue for former Binance CEO change pen Zao apologizes ahead of sentencing amid 161 letters of support Mr. Zao says that he's very sorry for running Binance in a way that allowed people to use it illegally he says that he made poor decisions but as those who are sentencing him say he made these poor decisions. So that his website and company would be incredibly profitable and incredibly popular allowing anyone to trade anything they wanted Dan Eve what do you think about CZ from Binance being a attempt in sentencing of three years in jail. I think it's pretty hardcore like three three years it's not the same scale as like as as Sam Mangrefried it seems and and they didn't seem what they've been trying to kind of be on the right side of regulation for for a long while so and they they tried to be responsible they had the safe who fund and yeah I don't know I think I think that they may be coming down a bit hard a bit hardcore but again I just I just think the crazy thing is that I'm not going to be able to do it. So it seems to be the only industry where the CEOs and founders are being prosecuted and I don't understand why that doesn't happen in any other industry is like in fact there's no other industry that actually have a year around this happening at this at this rate. It's quite crazy especially when they are trying to be on the right side of the regulators and trying to cozy up to them so yeah so I think it's been ashamed. But maybe I'm completely wrong and like Sam Mangrefried he pulled over everyone's eyes and he's an asshole of crypto but he seems to be one of the nicer guys in crypto you know I don't know nice of people. Three years I think it's a bit hardcore but then that you know they immediately replaced him with a dude from the WEF right straight in there like the same day they announced that that came out of left field didn't it all I'm stepping down I'm I'm been done by the FBI I've I've been to to crimes are very sorry and some dude who's replacing me is is on the WF website thanks very much good boy. Well seems a bit kind of you know backhandry allegedly. Well not all the time but sometimes I try to look at things through Brian Armstrong's eyes and he spent all this time building coin base and it's a legitimate exchange and he works with the government he goes to all the meetings even rats everybody out to the IRS not his greatest moment but on the other side you have essentially these pirates at by nets. That when they were forced to pay taxes in one country they moved to another country when there is maybe an idea that that country attacks them as well they move to another country so that they're doing all these clear pirate actions they're letting everyone use the site if they have a VPN they're not doing any kind of tracking or controls and because they're making tons of money off these choices we talked before about the difference between a moral choice and a profit choice well once again here the moral choices that many of us agree with have a lot of the money to have the freedom to invest your money to buy whatever you want to sell it to move it around the world that comes right up and the guy makes profit off it too. So it seems like it was kind of an everything for finance and like you said Dan the best part is now the site still running it's an incredibly huge popular company with hundreds of thousands millions of users and they cheated to get there poor Brian Armstrong and other people who followed the rules followed the laws didn't have this option of adding every point under the sun I think Binance had no fee trading for a while there's been a lot of incredible options that they've had because like Zuckerberg said they were able to move fast and break things. Let's go to Victoria Jones more on Binance and the attempt at a three year sentence what do you think. I think he was following the philosophy that it's better to apologize and ask for permission. So you know and certainly from reading the article it was seen that he's had some excellent legal advice. You know if you've had any kind of exposure to how the legal system works you know he's he's doing exactly what you would do in that situation and the prosecutors are doing exactly what they would do in that situation and the whole point of a legal case is you fight through the arguments and they're not going to do it. You know who wins at the end of the day. I think sometimes in those sorts of situations the more belligerent you are and the more in denial that you are the more likely they're like they're like to come down new hard but because he seems to be kind of going look. I was in a difficult situation and I did the best I could you know it's all all depends on the degree to which the judge believes that or whether or not they believe the prosecutors that you know he was he was doing it deliberately. And you know tax avoidance isn't necessarily crime you know if you can if you know they're plenty big pointers to do that if you can move to a country where you have you can pay less tax. Why wouldn't you do that you know it's just a good business decision so. Yeah it's a it's a tricky one I think the prosecutors fair enough they probably want to go for a three a sentence I suspect given his conciliatory reply. It's unlikely that he will get the full aspect of that and to be quite honest you know when it comes to financial crime. You know the standard operating procedure is that people are fine and he's already paid a whopping fine. Oh my god it's massive 4.0. And also if you're also going to if you're also going to imprison people for something like that it's like we were saying early what happened to all the bankers in 2008. So you know clear double standards so people will certainly be asking questions if he does go to prison will be interesting to see how it plays out. Well it's definitely a good thing they didn't let him go back to UAE or Dubai or wherever he wanted to go before because he would have been in a non extra edition country. And while he did pay a large a large fee a large fine he still made tons of money and made this into a giant global worldwide business. Josh she got your company of all Toro as far as we know never broke the rules never violated everything moved fast jump from country to country. And exactly you're you're kind of the victim here you coin base other people cracking should have had more volume if finance wasn't allowed to break all the rules go around the world and then pay a small fine what do you think about the possibility of CZ going to jail. No I think it's terrible I just don't I just can't believe it like CZ never stole a penny like literally has been you know as much as we don't like by now people be quite as oh shit going casino yard yard yard he has been a good player in terms of keeping a very tight ship and not losing anyone's crypto had us had a fund a safe who fund. And so that when there was a vulnerability exploit they out of their own profits public all that which is in their good business interest as well yet you know this again this is all part of the witch hunt right now this is all part of the witch hunt and I see it as as very very. It's a sign of things to come like where do you draw the line just like that cop walks around the car trying to find some sort of defect they will find something and. Yeah where is Sam bankman freed and it's funny seeing those two equated actually was was doing you know actually running a massively fractional reserve nonsense. One's either so. The I think I think the reason why this is happening is that there was a lot of big money behind Sam and they don't like that CZ took Sam down because CZ is arguably the reason why that first domino fell and you know Sam's dominoes could have stood a little bit longer ready for the big money to maybe pull out. That that lobby money didn't go unheard and I think the the there is some political pressure I feel to throw some basically some weight around so that next time it doesn't happen I don't know but that's the feeling I get it's it just seems it seems odd. Exit question predict the future will CZ go to jail yes or no Dan Eve. Yeah I reckon he will maybe under a year or maybe suspended sentence and all that ground ground police. Victoria Jones will he go to jail. I think if he does there will be people who are up in arms about it because well people who know because quite frankly if he goes to jail especially after paying that massive fine what the hell are they doing in 2008. So I think it will set and very unusual precedent and there will be case to answer if they do. You can just say it's crypto he was a crypto guy that means he's bad Josh she got the CZ go to jail. I hope not I guess it could anything's possible these psychopaths. The answer is yes but I think Dan's right it'll be probably less than a year maybe six months maybe three months after you know good behavior and all that kind of thing but it would be shocking like Victoria say to say to CZ. Someone actually punished for a financial crime in the United States that's so rare that hardly ever happens. Let's move on to issue five a nice fun issue to close with Bitcoin having party unites art and tech at Warsaw Bitcoin Film Fest. And I just thought this was a nice great positive story they had a film festival in Warsaw Poland. They played a variety of brand new Bitcoin films that I can't wait to see they say the highlight was a movie called dirty coin that talked about how Bitcoin mining is using stranded and wasted energy to build renewable infrastructure. So it's probably you know an ironic title it's not such a dirty coin and they talked about another film called searching for Satoshi an art collective helping educate people about Bitcoin. And they even had a new film about Bitcoin pay server BTC pay server that I hear we at the world crypto network have been included in. So I just want to say Victoria what do you think about the film festival any of the film sound interesting to you and they also had what I've told is a great having party out there in Warsaw so shout out to the Bitcoiners of Poland sounds like a great time. Yeah it looks really fun and some of the films look really fascinating I'm sure I'll enjoy you know watching some of those if we get an opportunity. Roger 9000 I've actually seen in person at the Bitcoin adventure I thought he was great I've never seen him before since I went there and he did the chocolate thing. So yeah sounds great first I'd heard of it but yeah I wish I could have been there looks like a lot of fun. I've been following on Twitter for quite a while they've got a great Twitter account the Warsaw Bitcoin crew and it's good stuff Josh, you call what do you think about the films the film festival any of them sound interesting to you. Yeah absolutely I love the fact that the film festival for Bitcoin it just goes to show how many films that they can be a festival how many films they're actually are about about this it's phenomenal I love it so yeah next year next year I'll try to make it sound like I had a good turnout too. Yeah it is exciting to hear and see about these films using Bitcoin especially when they can use Bitcoin for fundraising they could make their own coin they could have an NFT sale there's a lot of ways where Bitcoin can only be what the films about but it could also fundraise and help the people make the film. Dan Eve what do you think about the film festival any of them sound interesting to you. Yeah it's seen pretty cool like I wish I actually went but sadly couldn't this year because of the travels but would have been nice to see yeah Roger Roger I think was there as well I read I read separately that he was he was that the event doing I think doing this one of his music sets he's amazing to watch because he's just like absolutely dreaming with energy you know he gets the room absolutely bouncing so he's really cool to watch yeah definitely would like to go and see it next year that's for sure. Sounds great and shout out to the Bitcoin festival in Warsaw sounds like a good one we're running out of time though so we're going to go to predictions or story of the week Dan Eve are you ready with the prediction or story of the week not just chillin just just taking it easy. That's it taking it easy no animals visiting your house this week everything is good yeah all right Victoria Jones do you have a prediction or story of the week go ahead. Yes I'm currently working on my next newsletter it's been a while because for the last few weeks I was focused on the Bitcoin Fest and as I mentioned earlier the next one's going to be on Bitcoin and inflation so that's quite an interesting interesting one we're looking at and that can be found on my website is to she's page.com and I'll also pin it to my Twitter profile when it's finished as well. That sounds great we're looking forward to that Josh a go prediction or story of the week go ahead. My story of the week I think I think is when I put anything in the chat here. In next to the chat it doesn't show up so I just see if for months just basically shouting into a thunderstorm and no one hearing me. Yeah I've always been strangers been so long since you posted anything in there yeah because I've seen there I talk I comment to people and then the other day. It's Australia yeah maybe it was when Thomas when you brought up the the screen share of the chat I was like hang on a minute I can't see my comments anyway that's when I realized. Anyway sorry about that folks in the chat I love the conversations there shout out to BTC moon guy and dusty gray starship shouting as destiny. And Michael you know we read all your comments please please hit that subscribe and and that like is you know we get up every week to do this I get up at 5.30 in the morning over here. We love what we're doing and it will really help us out to spread the spread the channel and edit motivates us the more subscribers we get we get motivated to do more content and get better guests on as well. So yeah please give us a give us a thumbs up or subscribe. I'll have to check the chat thing and make sure you're not shadowed or something Josh I hate it for that to happen by mistake but it could have also been something that YouTube did to you there's always a possibility they put you on a list for some reason but it's a company it's one of those Google. Google accounts where you pump Gmail through it and everything like that so I'm not sure if you have to set settings for YouTube I don't know. Lucy I look into it strange. Strange. I don't remember what my story of the week was going to be I'm sure it was going to be great. I don't know I read I watched former all mankind I think that's great I read the second book by the guy who wrote the Martian Andy we're called Artemis it wasn't that great I can see how people are disappointed after the Martian but then his third book project Hail Mary is really good so I would check that. I'm not sure what else I have to report I guess maybe check out that show Tulsa King with Sylvester Sloan playing an old mobster that's pretty fun a little violent though but also wanted to mind everyone we had a great having party last week shout out to everyone who joined us you can check that out on the channel and we're going to have that out as a podcast soon we had a lot of different guests from all over and we played some clips from the last having party we had and the having party we had. Before that so it was our third having party but other than that it went pretty good the having turned out like we said a big nothing burger everyone got excited for nothing we now have to wait to see like we've all said if the supply shock happens and when it happens because we're not going to know until after it's happened so we're all waiting for that now and that's about it not that much going on so thanks for joining us and until next time. Bye.