The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 years, the sharpest Satoshi's the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. Happy Friday people. Daniel Cari from Understanding Crypto, the book. Hey everybody. Josh Jagala from the standard dot IO. Happy Saturday from where I am. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the world crypto network moving on to issue one issue one German police sees 2.1 billion dollars worth of Bitcoin in piracy sting. According to the early information on the website, the money was originally stolen or used in a pirated video type website situation. The profits from that video website were put into Bitcoin. Dan Eave, what do you think about the seizure of 2.1 billion dollars? Well, it's another, another huge seizure right from, from, from operations that were using dark markets in some way, right? These are piracy markets. So the profits were then put into Bitcoin because the, the pirates were very clever of course and, and neither Bitcoin was just going to do its thing. It's probably what the biggest, is it, is it, is the biggest seizure by any country in Europe? Bitcoin seizure? I think it's in the billions. It's got to be there, right? We're probably going to see. It dwarfs the Silk Road that was only now 600 or 240, 240 million. This is two billion, so it's 10 times bigger than the Silk Road. But what, what, what was the, what was the Silk Road Bitcoin worth now, right? Because the, surely, is that today's, like, today's prices would, would be pretty insane for Silk Road. I'm sure. I, I was told there would be no math. Well, it was like, I mean, it was like 40 million, it, it, it got sold for some of it, got sold to Tim Draper in like 2017 and that was when Bitcoin was about a thousand dollars. So it can't, it must be like 40 times four, I don't know, it's, it's a huge amount, right? So it's, it's a lot of 1.6 billion. It's got to be now. But anyway, that's a huge seizure, especially from, from, from Europe. We're not used to kind of those, those seizures really, because a lot of them, you tend to hear they come from the US like Bitfinex, Silk Road, etc. There was obviously the Russians behind the hack for, was it cryptocurrency that got caught, I think again, that was by the US authorities. So that was a US type seizure. But we're going to be hearing about plenty of these as time goes on and as much as, you know, we say that Bitcoin is uncomfascatable. They can still, they can still bend your arm until they, until they willingly given the, the private keys, which is what happened here with the German police. So it may be uncomfascatable to a certain extent and it may be anonymous to a certain extent, but they'll still, they still can't find you and they still comprise the Bitcoins from your hands. That's definitely true. And while everyone talks a big talk in Bitcoin, it always ends up like the scene in Untouchables, where they ride on the wall and blood touchable. Daniel Kerry, what do you think about the seizure of 2.1 billion dollars? Yeah. And I checked out this article and this looks like this piracy stuff was going on like 10 years ago. So like 10 years ago, people were still saying Bitcoin is anonymous, right? That's what people were using Silk Road for. And it's, it's the authorities catching up to all of this stuff that's happened over the last 10 years. I know a lot of people that work in these blockchain analytics companies and there's just like huge demand from law enforcement and governments everywhere because ironically, the whole advent of crypto and Bitcoin was for sort of freedom and something outside of governments. The irony is now governments are like making money from this, like seizing it. The Silk Road example is, yeah, it was a 2014 auction where Tim Draper bought a bunch of them. He didn't say how much he paid for them, but it was like, you know, it was definitely less than a thousand dollars for those. What will be interesting is like, there's obviously going to be a follow-up to this story about who's going to buy these at auction. That's 50,000 Bitcoin. Who's going to, is somebody just going to come in and take all that? Is that like going to be a Michael Slerker sort of situation? It'll be interesting to find out, but the story's not over there. The rules are you have to buy them all at once. So it has to be a single person. So they're limiting this auction to say like Elon Musk or Michael Jordan, someone like that. Well, I don't know why you said Michael Jordan. I didn't know he was like in the market, but like, yeah, so there's only like a few planet that are going to buy this, right? And I can't think of a big publicly traded company in Europe that would do this. It's really like the Teslas or the micro strategies or the Square, not known as Block. I feel like it would be a big company that would do this or a huge investor, but 50,000, that's just a lot, you know, that's a lot of money. It's actually even more money than a sports team, but still, Josh Shagalla, it's the shoes. Do you like Mike? There's always hope, right? There is always hope. Man, like someone sent through this, like not this particular article, but the topic of this article a little like a few days ago to me. And I could have sworn there was something more nefarious about it wasn't just a file sharing because I mean, who pays for file sharing? I don't understand. I think the early articles do seem incredibly weak. Like I tried to read to her to give them and I was looking for that meat like I wanted to understand the story better. I don't think they know at this point. I think obviously the feds know the government knows, but I don't think we know and we're going to learn more, right? Daniel, has you heard anything on this? Well, there's a case on going, right? There's clearly, to my understanding, there isn't been a prosecution, right? Yeah, there's not even a moment of the child. The guy just said, yeah, all right. And I mean, if people are making films and earning this much money, I don't see how like piracy is free. Like people pirate because they don't want to pay for the streaming service. So they generally don't want to pay for that. So it could be some very sick stuff that people, you know, with that sort of precliberty you want to pay for. But yeah, so yeah, there's a story still ongoing. I can't really say much more apart from the thing that government sees funds without sort of knowing much about it. They did the same thing with the oligarchs from Russia. You know, they just sort of buck you know, create a tag and then say, right, there's ours now, they just see stuff, they just see stuff. And I, you know, some of these so-called oligarchs, we know nothing about them. They're just a people that, you know, yeah, maybe they got them with all gotten gains. But come on, we have some sort of like system in place to go through and charge people and come for them and put them in prison or whatever. You can't just go around the world just seizing stuff because people are wealthy. So you know, I don't know, like I want to see more sort of steps towards, I want to see more proper steps towards charging someone before they just take someone's money. I feel that's towards heading towards a pretty dark place in society. I think unfortunately we just need more information on this. We're probably going to find out that he was butchering and murdering the cats and Daniels background. And then we're going to be all in arms and upset because in general though, we need to know what they're selling. If they're making $2.1 billion on selling videos, I need to know what kind of videos they are, even if it's horrible, like Rosemary's baby or something. So that question is still out there. We're going to continue following this story and we're going to try to keep up with it when more information is available. But let's move on to the exit question. The pirates were clearly following the old code. They were using pseudo anonymous, what they thought was anonymous Bitcoin. But the real question is, will we see more giant seizures like this in the future? Or will pirates take advantage of things like Monero, Zcash and other privacy currencies? Dan Eve is the future of private piracy on Bitcoin? Well, we'll see the old lots of old thefts popping up. But I think you're right that there's going to be a lot of criminals that will be using swapping services and will be a lot harder to trace than just having, you know, having taken accepted Bitcoin and then using Bitcoin to transact. They'll probably be swapping here there and everywhere. But we'll definitely be hearing a lot more about the old seizures that are happening and the police finally catching up. And I don't want to get to ahead of ourselves here. But if you watch the CNBC Rosalcon video that we link below, I think the future is these flow charts charting everyone's money saying that it went here and it went there and it got big and it got small, this exchange to exchange. It's a complicated web, but it seems like the investigators seem to catch them every time or catch them on the other end buying things at Walmart. Daniel, what do you think? Are they going to keep using Bitcoin in the future? Well, I remember it's actually been about 10 years since like this wide usage of what's called clustering has been happening with Bitcoin and that's just where you can kind of cluster entities and you can see what's in exchange, what's a wallet, where's it going there? So that part of it, the regulators and the cops have gotten ahead of. Another thing that's been done is to try to clamp down on the mixers, right? The stuff that's just kind of swirling particularly Bitcoin around. So I'm starting to wonder if like there will be more usage of like privacy type of coins like Monero. A lot of people don't, I believe it is something like 95% of Zcash transactions are not shielded anyway because people don't even know how to use it that way. But Monero in particular, that seems like one where I have heard that there are ways to track it, but it's a lot harder. So it's just like this cat and mouse game that's just going to continue, right? The cops are going to get ahead of like they got into clustering and all that. Now they're clamping down on the mixing. I've heard some things about people can trace things with Monero, but it's very difficult. There'll be something else that comes along that it's just the whack-a-mole game. And it's just like the last thing we're talking about, like it's just a storyline to follow. I do love the idea that it'll just be something generic like privacy coin or secure coin, and it won't actually be secure. It'll just say so. And again, these poor hackers, I don't know, I just name it. It's called Telegram. It's called Telegram. Telegram coming. But at this point, these poor hackers just don't know what to do. All these unprivate coins, and like Daniel was saying, no mixers, no cocktails, drink it straight. Josh is Bitcoin privacy, the new crisis, as everyone forgotten scaling, and it's nothing but libertarian tiers. Well, the thing is that obviously no one wants hardcore criminals around. Nobody likes, apart from people that are actually purchasing from these criminals or whatever. But in a civil society, we don't want sickos trading sick stuff and getting away with it. But by clamping down on the thing that sickos, as well as normal people use, all you do is build a tighter and tighter net around the normal people until the sickos take over government. And then you have the sickos in control of everybody or the bullies at least. And so it's important to remember that when you have a currency that is free like cash, it's also pseudonomous. Like you've got these serial numbers that can be traced, but it's anonymous in the point of contact. And so moving forward, you know, Bitcoin still does have that same promise and it is hard. And in a court of law as well, you have to be beyond a shadow of and doubt. And so some of these mixes and things, they do cause the shadow of doubt to enter the story. And so it is I think a lot harder to lock someone into a guilty if they don't, you know, just confess themselves. But just tracing the money, I think it's lazy police work. Having money has always been a good way to solve crimes. Obviously follow the money, we all know it, but it shouldn't be the only way. We shouldn't create money so we can follow the money on everything. We should create money because it's good money. It's an easy way to transact. It creates wealth and prosperity because the more wealth and prosperity we have, the bigger the middle class, the bigger the middle class, the less crime. And that's where we want to get to. I do think the police were lucky in this case, Josh. They said that one of the people who had the money had just given it back to them. They had sent the coins to the police so they don't have to, you know, get their key out of them some other way. But it's another lesson like the MP3 Bitcoin might be more trackable money at least for now. Moving on to the next topic, issue two. Bruce by the stock market, the Chinese rush into banned Bitcoin. Yes, that's right. The Chinese are back again and despite being banned, the Chinese crypto market recorded an estimated 86.4 billion dollars in transaction volume between July 2022 and 2023, dwarfing Hong Kong, which only had 64 billion dollars in crypto trading. Chain analysis also records that the developments have created speculation that the Chinese government may be warning to cryptocurrency and that Hong Kong may be a testing ground for these efforts. As predicted on this show, the Chinese did continue buying Bitcoin despite it being banned. Daniel Carrey, what do you think about the Chinese getting rid of the stock market and getting in to Bitcoin? Yeah, so I actually spent some time living in China 2006, 2007. And I remember when I was there, people that I was working with, I was working on a startup, they were investing in the stock market there. And it was like, it was going like before, this was before crypto, right? But it was, it was crazy. And I remember saying to these people, I was like, like, this doesn't seem like a real stock market and they're like, oh, we were well aware of this. We were well aware that this is just like the way our stocks work. And the problem you have with like publicly traded companies in the Shanghai market, the Shenzhen market is like, there always seems to be like some funky accounting going on with these companies. And so why not just invest in crypto? I mean, this has been going on. It's just like to hear this story now. I mean, I remember this story back in 2013, 2014, right? There was a bunch of Chinese exchanges popped up. I can't like, okay, coin and BTCC, like, and then that all got shut down. Bitcoin mining used to be, almost exclusively in China, that got shut down. I think the Chinese want to have other financial options and opportunities and they like to get some of their money maybe out of the mainland into other places. And it seems like Hong Kong is that test ground, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that there's some banking services in Hong Kong now that are enabling crypto or maybe enabling crypto exchanges. I can't remember, but now that the mainland sort of owns Hong Kong, it's still sort of like this fertile testing ground in Hong Kong has always been known as a financial center outside of Japan. The funny thing now is like with the mainland kind of co-opting Hong Kong, what do they do for a financial center now? And maybe crypto is what that will be. It's interesting. We've always heard that China has a gambler culture and to see that go into their stock market and have stocks more like Plinco where it's a random ball moving around less info, more random chaos like a slot machine where you could just win a million dollars because of an accounting error on a stock or something. That does, it does sound kind of fun. Got to admit. But let's go to Josh Tagalog. What do you think about China getting back into Bitcoin as of course we and everyone else on the show predicted? Yeah. I mean, the thing is the Chinese are, you know, they're saying that China is large and the emperor lives far away. And so it is vast, I should say, and the emperor is far away. The currency controls have been a thing, right? You aren't allowed to just buy some US dollar or have capital flight. But there's whole districts that are basically there to facilitate capital flight. You just need to know where they are and they'll sort it out for you. You can get money out and it's the same with buying crypto. It never really went, but you can go and buy crypto. It's, yeah, it's not mainstream. But there's whole districts where you can go and change your money for other currencies. And you know, you're able to open bank accounts that are off the mainland. So internationally, I think even the article stated that and buy crypto. But yeah, it's only a matter of time. I mean, you can't ban math. Like it's just a matter of time. Chinese are good at getting past all the firewalls and seeing stuff if they want. Obviously, it's about reading in English by the heart, but you've got automated translators. Now, like it's more, you know, Bitcoin wasn't designed to be legal, so to speak. Like it was designed to be what it is and people will get it if they want it. Obviously, when, you know, when in the early days, you had to jump through a thousand hoops to get Bitcoin. You had to open a dual and a dual or a card and buy second life credits and things. What those second life credits to something else? Say, you know, people jump through hoops if they want this stuff and they'll get it. No worries. I haven't heard that. Wall in forever. Yeah, right. That's a blast from the past. Then you'll have to go answer the red money phone or get on money line or something like that. But I do agree, Josh, that the Chinese will get Bitcoin if they want it. That's always what we've said here. If there's demand for something, even if the government bans it, even if they have the great firewall or the greatest firewall, people seem to find a way around it. Dan, Eve, what do you think about China getting into cryptocurrency despite the ban? Well, I think that's only going to continue, especially as the property markets in terms of the Evergrand thing just keeps on going on. There's, you know, I was reading only reading today about the number of developments that are just completely abandoned. There's that giant Paris city, the miniature Paris, which is, which is all completely abandoned. So whereas hedging with property was a really good thing, with logical thing back in the past when it was booming, it's not such a big, a great idea now. And quite a lot of the wealth in China is tied up in property markets. And if that's starting to hit really bad, as well as the stock market, then there's only one other asset class really to look to for for stability outside of just China, right? Something that isn't tied to China specifically in the success of the Evergrand property market will stock within China. So it seems pretty sensible. And as we said there, you know, they're quite technologically advanced nation there and they're very used to having to scoot around issues and VPNs in order to be able to get to, you know, random social media sites and any other content that's there's banned by the government. So it makes sense that they would be also quite clued up on how to get around actually buying Bitcoin. What's strange about that is that even the art school says that if mining and trading is banned, but it also says that OK X and Binance is still operating. So what do you do on OK X and Binance if you're not trading? Maybe it's maybe it's just future. You're just an observer or you can play with fantasy Bitcoin. And just track what your wins losses would have been if you'd invested just a fun game. Here's what you could here's what you could have had right. But it was it's always been a cat and mouse game with with with China and actually I remember Daniel, as you said about the OK, what was the OK coin was the exchange wasn't it? I actually remember watching a presentation was yeah, so I remember OK coin and then there was a T.C. China, which then became BCC and that was like Lee's like who boy or who buy something like that as well. Bobby, those were the three that were big, but I also remember Bobby Lee, who's who's Charlie Lee's brother who started BTC China. He would go to conferences in the US and talk about how much market manipulation was going on with these exchanges. Yeah, they just didn't you know, they just had to kind of go with the flow on all that right like that's just kind of like the way that they were operating. Well, and he's a he's similar to Jack Mawe were at one point they were on top of the world. They were beloved businessmen in China, then China decided to ban Bitcoin and get rid of them. And now I think they're just you know back to being normal citizens again, not quite the stars that they once were. There wasn't a lot of talk about what happened to it was BTC China and then it was BTC and then it just kind of went away because like if the government doesn't want you doing it. And you're called BTC China, which what exactly is your business. I know Bobby now has like a Bitcoin wallet company called ballet. It's like a very thin wallet. So he's he's he's done fine. He's probably wanted to be out of that spotlight for a long time anyway. So. Yeah, so don't we interview Bobby Lee about his the wallets they were like and he was talking about he went into how the what the one factory produces the private keys and another factory produces the actual hardware and how he was going to detail about how they separate them so that they won't ever have the private key for these kind of paper type wallets. I think it was even like I think I even got a card upstairs or something like that from that. But yeah, but I remember watching for OK coin I remember watching a presentation at coins scrum in London in like one no 2017. And and yeah, there was there was OK coin it was just as China abandoned and abandoned band and abandoned and abandoned again. And the guy was like, well, I don't really know what I'm what I'm going to say, you know, in this presentation because Chinese just bandits again. So they're to the presentations probably get a change. No, out of the three out of hobby, BTC China and OK coin OK coin still exists actually they're just known as OK X I know they have offices in Silicon Valley. I know they're popular with like altcoin trading. They're still a viable business and they have an office like a mental park or something. So I think they've done well with probably just being outside of the Chinese market, maybe the Southeast Asian market, maybe South America. So other three there was one that actually did do OK they just they changed their name to OK X now that I remember. I think it's my first time to you know way. I yeah that that came in 2017 that came way later, but that was like the second wave. Before I think they tried to ban it again or whatever because they did kick my man's out of the country or whatever at least the opposite. It felt like the story with BTCC also like they left they were going to go to Hong Kong. They kind of were going to keep operating in China. I think somebody said no to that and as you say Daniel, I think it completely disappeared. I don't know if it turned into another exchange or became something or whatever happened. This China to Hong Kong to somewhere else like this is what wasn't FTX based in Hong Kong too and then they had to go to the Bahamas like this is just a common seems like a common thread for crypto companies. Not not completely similar, but I do remember now FTX was also in Hong Kong. It makes was also in Hong Kong right so like there's been a lot of activity in Hong Kong. I don't know if I'd want to go start a crypto company there because it feels like the rules and things are undulating you know you just don't know where it's going to where the future is going to be and that's really hard as a business owner to try to to run something about. You're just going to be. Yeah and Josh you know how bad it is to try to get bank accounts. Imagine switching countries multiple times and going from country to country like some of these companies have. Yeah, it's a complete nightmare. It's a complete and this is where this is where stable coins came from. This is why stable coins were invented or USDT has been particular because exchanges just kept on getting their bank account stolen so so of shot down I should say. And sometimes like so it was just much easier to say look here if you want to have a hedge on the US dollar he is one that's peg to it. And which also centralized a lot of that that problem to to tether which was also difficult but yeah it running in exchange has been the hardest thing in the world like it's already hard to have a start up let alone run a frickin crypto exchange. It's a complete nightmare. Well and as it says in the article the Chinese stock market may be down around 40% Facebook stock they call it meta now was up 20% just today but they tell me that stocks aren't volatile stocks are safe. But you all know the true source of knowledge the Bitcoin magic eight ball the predictor of predictors and now the panel will face off against the ball. Dan Eve will the price of Bitcoin to be higher or lower this time next week. I am. Daniel carry higher or lower. I'm going to I'm going to be a contrairians a lower. Josh a gole higher or lower. I've drawn some Pythagoras theorems and some triangles and some lines and they all state high I said I'm just going to go higher. That's two to one it's going to take a lot of charts but now we'll shake the ball which you know could cause bubbles will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week. It is certain it is certain says the ball one of the most certain predictions that the ball can make moving on check out world crypto network dot com where we just celebrated our 10th anniversary from February 1st 2014 until February 1st 2020 for check out the whole video and let's stop for a minute here. Just panels when's the first time think back in your memories when's the first time that you heard about the world crypto network or the first show that you watched Dan Eve world crypto network memories. There was it was 2020 13 and I was like looking for looking for podcasts and I found the trace made a one run to gold which which you he turned into the Bitcoin one and then was looking for something on YouTube to watch and I remember you watching mad bitcoins on that and I was like. I was watching it with into minds because I was like this is the most amazing incredible like invention ever this is so cool and I'm like. But how can I point if I want someone point someone towards a YouTube resource like are they going to take me seriously when I point them towards mad bitcoins informing them about Bitcoin and and it did it is used because it sticks in people's minds they're watching the guy the crazy hand the psychedelic backgrounds so yes probably late 2013 I think is the first time I watched so just over 10 years ago. Very cool Daniel carry wins the first time you heard about the world crypto network I definitely heard it from you in person at a meetup. I don't remember like see that's word of mouth advertising right there might have even given you a sticker you might have given me a sticker I remember that you interviewed me with your top hat and glasses about zap chain in 2015. At one of Brock Pierce's conferences I can't remember which one it was called like coin summit or coin tackler or something I remember you interviewing me though and then and we just used to hang out we used to go you used to do the the social in the mission. So but all of those like I can't remember because there was so many times that we actually used to hang out in person back in Silicon Valley before the pandemic before everybody just now it's like a totally different place like it's not the same anymore it's all just AI. All the other good old days we used to have the San Francisco Bitcoin meetup and the drink up and we would hang out the L Rio in the mission. In fact in the back in the back everybody would come to that man was huge man. Good times good times Josh gigala what do you remember about the world crypto network we found a video yesterday of you talking about Valtoro you look so young Victoria couldn't believe it. Yeah man it's with been around I would have been like twenty thirteen or something I don't know but yeah mad big coins that was there was there was a couple of. It was I remember turning you know because there wasn't that much content back in the day you like you try to fight you could be pretty much keep up with all the news. And all the you know and seeing mad big coins there that was always interesting and I remember I watch like this silver guy who was right into silver. And and he would say man this mad big coins he's actually a very intelligent guy I'm thinking yeah he is yeah anyway very good and congratulate you know this show is the longest running and we don't say it enough it's the longest running Bitcoin show in the world. It's been going continuously for over ten years and and yeah congratulations Thomas for you know being there on a weekly it's it's fantastic to see and I think we should definitely give homage to more of that aspect that this has been so long running because most people you know this is whole thing called pod fade where people just get over doing it or they get you know they get too well. Or they get too wealthy or they get too bored or they get too busy or you know life happens and but no you know Thomas you've you've carried carried us through and continued building and and thanks to people that support us in the chat there obviously we have the regulars propagol and grigal and and and stuff so yeah thank you to everybody and yeah thank you it's it's it's an honor to you. It's it's an honor to be here on a weekly and fantastic. Oh thanks Josh for the kind words it's been great to keep this going and to keep it going for the comments and the chat and all the people and it's been really fun ten years. I also wanted to say shout out to Max Hillbrand I forgot to mention him yesterday really carried the network for a while there do a lot of content and it's been fun keeping this up but we've got to move on back to the issues issue three. Ftx expects to fully repay customers but won't restart the defunct crypto exchange initially their FTT token surged after the but then the news turned negative and it plummeted 15% of course they're paying you back at the level of Bitcoin at $2,000 or $20,000 of Bitcoin not the current 40,000 levels Josh the go what do you think Ftx isn't such a crisis anymore. Well yeah I mean these sorts of articles really annoy me because they don't get into the details the fact is that this is just us customers so again US centric stuff you know Bitcoin is a global currency there's a people around the world particularly like Singapore for instance their government. A body endorsed Ftx and so this investment arm of the Singaporean government invested people's money like so many people lost money in this thing that aren't getting any of this stuff back plus yeah they're getting it at the price the US dollar that's not Bitcoin they're not getting paid in full if they're getting paid in full a big light mountain cocks where you know that not even sorry they're not getting paid in full but they're getting the big coin 20% of whatever they've that what's this face found behind the couch but you know we we we really want to see a little bit more the preciseness in the language used here US customers only sold it certain amount and you know you're not getting paid back plus look at this crazy market man Ft token still trading big connect still bloody trading I think like there's the weird thing with crypto some of these strange tickers keep on living you know at least when I'm on the stock exchange when a company goes down there ticker goes down as well as not seen anymore it's funny to see like Ftx is still like people are clinging on teraluna still clinging on to to hope him yeah but yeah I don't know like there's there's certain things with that that have been tried in this base which I find fascinating and it's on that lever of of experimentation so when who was it bit Ftx and they got hacked and then they they released the token was a bit Ftx yeah and and they released the token and then people bought the token as like an IOU and then the price collapsed and then the exchange bought the IOU back at pennies on the dollar and said oh look it's not I don't know it's just market forces like you didn't have to say that sell it back to them but people did and anyway I thought that was more like a fascinating way of dealing with a hack although you know Ftx wasn't a hack it was it was outright fraud but fascinating fascinating I you know let's see and this year should be the year that us mount goxers should be getting something back we'll see if at the last minute the doesn't the wallet doesn't get hacked or the guy accidentally fat thumbs it to his own wallet and says whoops I didn't mean to or whatever I don't know what you know you're just going to get one of those waving cats or maybe the leg lamp from a Christmas story you're going to be opening up and you're like I was my refund from my gox oh no it's it's a box of chopsticks yeah you're getting nothing but I do think this lesson this exchange again is a lesson for everyone if you store your coins in exchange they control your coins and if they decide to give you back at 20,000 a coin or 10,000 or 30,000 they just couldn't make it that month like joss said and they give you this weird bit for next token it's at your own risk when you store coins on an exchange so so a lot of people have trezzlers and ledgers and hardware wallets Dan Eve what do you think FTX is going to repay everybody this is just fine right everything's fine well as just as is it is it is it everyone or is it just the us customers right are they just going to you know pill for the funds that affected all these people while wide that lost money as it and and is it just going to go to the us customers it's good they're not they're not doing a token they're able to give the money back but again just point it out we're going to be in a fair value we're going to be in a fair value that's probably very different to the to the point where it went by they went under and if you look at the FTX token right now on coin market cap it says the FTX bankruptcy proceedings are underway the FTT token no longer has any use and maybe we liquidated by the estate to pay creditors proceed with caution but it's still what like I don't know 30 40 million dollars of trading on the exchanges and there's if you look at the order books it's not just like selling people are actually they're actually buying it and that's the crazy thing about about crypto again is just pointing out the fact that the ticker just disappears right but these these tokens can be traded forever on decks is and you think about like the liquidity pool can stay there because someone for example bought a bunch of liquidity pool tokens FTX and and and and and fear or Ethereum or whatever and lost their private key or lost the control of the wallet and you've got this eternal liquidity pool and people thinking the token still there and I still see it with random tokens that are that I shouldn't have got into in like 2017 and you've got to go back to check on the go denta coin well I don't get into denta coin but one of the funny ones right denta denta coin is that still about it yes for some reason there's still places where you can buy denta coin it's still being traded and you're like what the hell is going on man like it's really is immutable it's a turn it becomes it becomes a big good well FDT becomes a meme coin you know that's you know the meme is our FTA you know Sam Altman's here Sam not Sam Altman Sam back in the free tier you know yeah but it's crazy that yeah these these people are allowed to keep on buying these coins right not knowing that denta coin whatever is is a dead token because it's still there there's no way of kind of or at least there's not an easy way of being able to determine whether the coin's completely dead and there's a lot of projects as well not just from FDX aside but a lot of general projects from like crypto in the early days 20 even the earliest ones of like 2013 where you still got a community around stuff like feather coin they just won't let go they won't let go of these old old tokens and some of them also have seen they they basically they have a social media presence even though the team is defunct and not doing anything just because they can just account a few more pennies from people that randomly buy the coin thinking you know bag holders that think it's gone down to almost nothing now if I buy some you know buy some more I'm I'm you know and it goes up I'll eventually win so all these poor people buying these defunct tokens it's very sad I love this idea because it's almost ironic and fun like a an art project like let's adopt an old dead coin but then it gets sad because people start putting their money in it but what Josh said also reminded me maybe we should pitch this idea to the stock market maybe it's not too late for other dead companies like and Ron to come back and have a dead cat bounce making some investors rich others investors lose all their money it's like a wheel of fortune it really is a gambling market we could get a lot of money but we can't do it. We can't get some shot before to go and Daniel Carry what do you think about the FTX disaster now that all the money's being returned and there's no more disaster. Yeah and I'm glad we really have talked about FTT here because you know we need to go back and talk a little bit about it's like FTT is never going to die and I don't know if you guys remember this but when Sam was running FTX and he wanted to acquire a company or he wanted to make a deal. What was the crux of the deal it was FTT right what caused the collapse of FTX is when Ian Allison showed the balance sheet from coin desk he reported on the balance sheet what was it full of FTT right so Sam was kind of it's interesting because yeah now maybe FTT it doesn't sound like it's dead it does sound a little bit like it's a mean coin but prior to the mean coin status. Sam was using this like he thought it was like dollars right he was using this as his leverage that he created out of thin air and I remember there was like this quote about him saying oh you know it's I can't remember the description that he used with the media but it made everything sound like a Ponzi scheme right and and that's because that's what it was he created FTT he leveraged his own brand to use FTT to acquire other things. And then we figure out oh now everybody's going to get refunded I mean I don't know where they found all this extra change but and I don't know how much these state owns of FTT but it's interesting about how I have always wanted to write like a long op-ed or something for my sub stack about this idea of dead cryptocurrencies because they don't ever seem to actually die they just go through these cycles that we're still going to get the idea of FTT. So I feel so new into this like something like FTT can have sort of this some you know it can morph into different things it's not dead it's a mean but before that it was like people were accepting it like it was real money. This whole story like as soon as you sent this to me Tom I was like the whole story here is actually FTT because FTX is going to die and we're probably not going to hear much from Sam anymore and but FTT will will live on like I don't know what's something that is like lasted forever that we can't get rid of in society like there's got to be another example of this but but cryptocurrencies don't go anywhere you create them but then they don't ever get destroyed. It might not be the best example because it's physical but when I was in Vienna they have these things called flak towers that the Nazis had built and they're large cement towers and they're very thick and they were to have people evacuate in put guns on have radar that kind of thing and now in modern times they can't get rid of them because they're just too thick and they're just too heavy and if we blew it up all the concrete would go everywhere and one of them has been reconditioned into a aquarium and the other ones are just kind of monumented. They're just big heavy towers that can't be removed. You know it's sort of like power lines we really should bury all power lines just for safety and all that but because of the way things were 120 years ago at least in the United States all the power lines are underground you go to China they're all underground because they planned around all that right like. So there there's interesting aspects of our society technologically that it's like we just can't we can't get rid of a dial tone we don't really need a dial tone but we still have it right still use toilet paper paper yeah what's up with that. Be day. Be day. South Park said we should all switch to be days so. But it is interesting these structures. The structures that stay around these coins that are dead stay alive I remember when Mt. Gox was collapsing at first people were selling gox coins and there was a weird way if you had coins in your account you could flip them and then get these gox coins on the outside and then sell those and the speculators were hoping they would get the coins back from bankruptcy or be able to leverage it i'm not sure what happened to. In the end Bitcoin bill or something. I remember that yeah. And with these new ones that the arb play actually comes out when they print their own token like bit for next but it's not looking too bad maybe they could even get a meme going here just paint this guy green. Put them on the cover of these coins and suddenly FTX is a meme coin moving on to the exit question no harm no foul everybody gets paid back let's just let Sam out a jail Josh the gola should we forgive Sam Bankman freed. Well I think this is what the article set up maybe some of the large don't need donation receivers are like you know I don't know sort of pushing these sorts of narratives. Because does seem very u.s. And that's where he's going to prison that's where the courts are happening. And it might be a way that in the background the heavy weights that are surrounded by in Sam and trying to help him out trying to make. Make ship the narrative to everyone's getting paid back at the $20,000 range and in full you know so seems a bit a bit strange yeah. Dan Eve no harm no foul everybody's paid back. Well I mean you know he did lie in a lot of pockets right so how much can he can he can he get away with is he can be bailed out and I did. It seems like on the surface of it compared to other crimes like there we often compare it to the like Therados is it Therados that you know that that that and she's getting what nine years or something. And so if you compare it to the scale of that you'd imagine and the intent behind it as well. I mean it's very clear that he didn't know what he was doing from the start or at least he knew that he was doing wrong from the start. So you know he'd be getting a much harder sentence but yeah I think a lot of pockets have been lined and I don't know I think you're right the article kind of a loose to the fact that well you know he's kind of they're getting money back so all's not too bad right. Daniel Carvey set set my Sam Bankman freed freed. No I don't agree with that because of the damage that he he's actually he's actually caused a lot of reputational damage to anybody who's associated in this industry. You know he was supposed to have another trial in March and the prosecutors were like yeah we're just not going to do that like we had such a slam dunk in the first trial. It's not even going to be worth our time to bring additional charges that tells you these are you probably going to you know spend a lot of time. That's also a new romantic way to deal with prosecutions and crime we're like he just committed so many crimes we're just going to let him go and not bother prosecuting them which is a justice based person I kind of offensive. Well the amount of resources that they would have to put into putting it through another trial is it's it's I think the point is moot. And I've said this to people I think we're going we could see two different SPFs in the future we could see a guy who spends a lot of time around other criminals and just accept you know continues the narcissistic behavior and blames other people or we could see a benevolent SPF that actually goes into the correctional system and actually helps people because he's such an intelligent guy you just don't know whether he's just going to continue. Being full psychopath or if he's going to actually like turn a page at some point and realize hey this was like youthful indulgence and I was I was way in over my head and I didn't know what I was doing and and particularly I just remember in the trial it felt like he was just trying to blame a lot of other people when you know the buck should stop with him. Ah your truly romantic what a beautiful vision SPF anointed in prison taken up to heaven I think they could do a film with two versions of SPF like that movie sliding doors where one of them is like evil and running the gangs in the prison and the other one is all gentrifier gotified a nice like you're saying identified similar to maybe Ross Obrecht who they say is very nice. You can see the guy either running a gang or rebuilding the library you know reorganizing it making it more efficient or doing it again I love that the movie idea we just cut back and forth it's like in one of these pushing pushing the library cart and he's all quiet and nice and the other one he's like gangs to Sam sounds fun man sounds fun. I'm not a writer on that lighting goes to that's right I want I want to executive producer credit Dan Eve what do you think should we just let it go you know the money came back no foul he's already trading his trading fish right so he's already becoming a little gangster inside he's he's trading the max the macro. Yeah make like macro macro forwarding for you know for it's also I think you could do a fractional macro thing you know give you some macro now and you get some later and you know inflate the market that way yeah. Is that what an NFT is. So macro reserve that's an MFT MFT. Go ahead Dan you're still on something about the guy in prison. Oh no that was just it there was there was it you know he's trading this he's got his prison macro or he's trading now so see how he does. Well remember the that it's fun to beat a dead horse and that's the reason that you beat it it was a trick question the answer is no he doesn't get out of jail even if there is allegedly no harm even repaying people at twenty thousand dollars of coin no no no no no no and maybe they should jail the people who helped him do it as well instead of just letting them go but that's a different issue moving on to issue four. Texas Towns misery underscores the impact of Bitcoin mines across the U.S. it's not just the power usage it's the noise they can't go outside and not hear the fans all of their liberty has been destroyed by a corporation meanwhile Bitcoin miners in the United States consume up to two point three of the nation's electricity. All right as much electricity as the entire state of Utah I think we could do better Daniel Carrey what do you think about Bitcoin mining and messing with Texas. Yeah this is really interesting because because I had been thinking about this since there was the article that came out about I believe it's called the EIA where they're going to start trying to monitor. They want to know actually how much electricity use from the U.S. electrical grid is being used for Bitcoin mining and after I read that I started thinking well technically Bitcoin is a commodity in the United States regulated by the commodities and futures trading commission. We have a lot of information about how gold is produced which is the most popular commodity we have a lot of we have a lot of understanding of the supply of gold the mining of gold the use of gold I would argue that as what is going to become with ETFs a very big commodity that we need to have more data about what's going on with Bitcoin. I don't particularly have a problem with mining but like if we're like using excessive amounts of electricity we should figure out a way to make it efficient right like doesn't mean we have to go to proof of stake or some radical idea but like how can we make sure that we're using renewable energy or you know I used to actually work at an energy company so like there's a period of time during the day where the generators they don't really even have anything to to give demand to. Like during the day people aren't really using electricity to man in their homes it's like from the three to eight window so how do we how we find a way to like efficiently use our energy to do things like mining Bitcoin or you could even talk about like AI or even like larger data centers and things like that. That because that business is not getting smaller I was reading about BlackRock now is building a data center right so like the data center electricity usage for our advanced economy is increasing I think a question is like how do we make this efficient and how do we have transparent data around this again I feel like with gold we have a lot of transparent data about that commodity if Bitcoin is this commodity as regulated you know through the United States at least like. Where's all the data that we need the one thing I noticed about like proponents of Bitcoin we're saying about this electricity usage monitoring is like it's or well you well if it's or well you and it's a commodity though I would argue we should have more data and transparency around mining. I agree tracking a business is not exactly or well you know it's what the government does businesses generally abuse the rules go right up to the rules bro over the rules and that's why we track them and then we put it. I'm going to punish them Daniel has an incredibly idea for a measured approach but we all know what Congress is going to do ban it ban it Josh the goal of what do you think about Bitcoin mining takes us as much power is Utah now Utah. Yeah right well there is if you look at the largest data centers in the world because the article mainly is about the noise right but these data centers the equinix ones and such vast 1.5 million square feet of space being used and they've just sought like I don't hear anyone complaining about the noise of these giant data centers so either they're doing something better. With their fan and heat sinks or something else but I don't know like what why why I mean there are already laws around noise and and around you know noise pollution so it seems like a weird hit piece or someone just trying to write something that kind of you know we'll move a new angle like I mean a new angle on this big. The kind thing you know the boss says the writers like noise noise yeah that's a good one because there's obviously ways of making these things have less noise better insulation and I don't know water. You hit it on the head right like a journalist is going to love to write something about Bitcoin is noisy yeah it's a noisy technology right I mean I'm a journalist like I hate to say like if my editor was like hey can you write this story about Bitcoin being noisy I'd be like yeah sure I'd love to do that. Yeah right right so I don't know how much to give so obviously that you know there are a lot of cases where farmers and such get headaches from the large windmills because the tips are going at supersonic speeds causing this certain vibrations and it can cause things but yeah I mean you just insulate better I mean the better you can the less noise. The less noise you get also the less noise you get the more efficiency more efficiency you have the more efficiency you have the higher profits you have so it's in the you know you're incentivized as a minor to remove noise to to have less heat and all sorts of things so I just don't see you know all these arguments for Bitcoin having this wasteful side to it is nonsense. Because it's in the it's in the interest of the minor to have as much efficiency as possible and so having excess noise is an inefficiency there really. Well and one of the original ideas was to build the Bitcoin minor somewhere cold like Greenland where the air is already cool you can scrub it you can bring it in you don't have to cool it but I think what's happened here is that Texas is for taxes and there are certain advantages to building a business there. There might even be subsidies and other things so as an environmental idea cold air doesn't matter as much as a nice regulatory environment Dan Eve what do you think about Bitcoin use it more power than Utah. It's a bit dubious about like the health stuff that's coming out it seems like one of the only places where this there's reports of like the residents have got vomiting vomiting nosebleeds how how can how can like a how can a wearing of a fan from a distance calls a nosebleed it kind of seems to me like this is for all we know it could be that kid from the twilight zone have they checked that they need to check it's like a horror movie. There are a lot of things. It seems like it's that sort of thing right is this more thing of like they heard Bitcoin they don't like Bitcoin they've read it from these crazy ridiculous articles that Bitcoin boils the ocean and it's the back the only bad industry it seems to be the only industry ever where we continuously compare the Bitcoin can send you consumption to a country's power I mean there's no other industry on earth where that where they do that they don't every five minutes go well you know play stations use as much as I don't know what they're doing. Crack a tower or whatever the crack to is a volcano or something isn't it be not I mean they pick around in place like and just say and just say Tim buck to and so it was using more you know power than Tim buck to know we do something but the ultimately as Josh is saying that the the the the the miners run they need to run efficiently and obviously there's going to be noise associated with that and with if they're making too much making too much noise then not running as it is efficient as they could so it's all part of the process to actually eat you. So I think it's not going to be as good as it is to make out as much efficiency as possible. I mean it the article you the problem is it's from time and I know time do some good stuff but I'm going to bring it up they did say that Hitler was person of the year in 1938 so they may not be on the ball about some of their research. Just doesn't add to me fair person of the year is not necessarily good person of the year it's more of an influential title Stalin was also person of the year. Once you you because all the basket little the basket urban achievers and proud we are of all of them. But it's the other constant stuff like the Bitcoin mining is essentially a lifeline for fossil fuels and that's just such a misguided statement with all the research out out there right now I mean you've got to make that particular statement knowing about the renewable situation about how excess energy is the cheapest is it's just really sitting as it. And it just makes it invalidates the rest of the argument then there's the other stuff like those impacts include carbon carbon and noise pollution so that again the carbon pollution doesn't come and the articles are really wishy washy around this miners Bitcoin miners are their computers they don't have a direct carbon pollution footprint the electricity they may use may be carbon based but just the same as an electric car. We're using carbon but I mean some of the the charging stations and whatever a renewables but they use the same amount of carbon is as it you know it emits the same amount of carbon is a toaster and a toaster doesn't admit or probably actually does actually because you're burning okay. Toaster example but you know what I mean right it's just picking on something and saying when it produces all this carbon but then every other appliance in your house uses electricity which also when you produce carbon so yeah it's just another like you know with all waffle article. Getting crazy about because they're going on about how is all of these health impacts of and and again data centers right data so grant like no tomorrow who's to say that you story in your crappy photos on drop box is any more important and and negates any in form of critique about how that data is stored you know with a normal data center you know what's what's the what's why do you why do your photos on drop box take precedence over mining. A bit coin mining situation because one thing you never hear about is how a data center has to shut down to give power back to the grid because they don't bother doing that they just literally carry on carry on working and and and not giving energy back to the grid so at least there's that kind of part of the process especially in the text and market energy markets. You know Dan that my Instagram photos are more important than your international monetary network that's just the way it is and it's a good point about electric cars they can be full of dirty electricity got from coal or it can be clean electricity got from solar the same thing for Bitcoin miners we can't judge the electricity we have to judge where it came from one of the aspects I liked about this story is making fun of Texas and giving them a hard time because this does seem like kind of a can. There's a lot of people in the area in the area where they're waving that San Francisco flag and saying not in my backyard don't put those miners up in my backyard in Texas and we all know that birds aren't real it's been proven they charge on power lines moving on to issue five Tesla missed 500 million dollars in Bitcoin gains will it sell their Bitcoin as predicted on this show they did do an article telling you how much money Tesla made or lost from holding their Bitcoin and they could have made a lot more as well Samson Mao has predicted that the price of Bitcoin will rise to one million dollars and if that's not enough Kathy arc says it's going to hit 2.3 million dollars. Josh Jagala what do you think about the price of Bitcoin these amazing predictions and of course Tesla still holding just a little bit. I just want to everybody to quote me saying one trillion dollars. I it these people just pull these numbers out you know one million has been a number that's been pulled out for years I don't know why they're chucking Samson Mao on the cover now. Anyway yeah look these numbers really they make no sense because what you've got to think is. What how much money are they going to be printing because actually what you're saying with one million dollars they've just printed the hell out of the economy and that's now. Why Bitcoin is worth that much eventually. It's about that obviously more Chinese coming more people want to buy more every every economy around the world that is slowly inflating away their value will want to have some sort of safe haven so you know there is that but at the same time it's kind of a reflection of how much everybody's printing. So yeah it just see these numbers I don't know it's like what will it reach one million and then just stop is that what happens it's reached a million now it's stopping there like these numbers is these numbers are dumb I just stop it. I do agree Josh this is kind of the decline of good articles so many times you'll be reading an article and they say someone says and then it turns out they just put up a quote on Twitter and it's just this Twitter post and then they'll do these talking to the crowd audiences where they really go out do some research and they quote five or 10 Twitter accounts in a row and there's not even an article there and I'm like what happened what happened in the article Dan Eve what do you think Samson Mao says a million. Kathy would 2.3 and of course Tesla made some profits. Well yeah I mean like who wouldn't like to see a million dollar Bitcoin plus but yeah those predictions they run on the mill now right you know we've and and that's they're all nothing compared to the one that Ben informed us of which was like the 666 billion I can't remember it had so many so many numbers in it you know you lose count it was something like 12 zeros more than that right. I think it was at least 666 billion dollars per coin but there was a lot more digits to it yeah that's now that's the sort of prediction we need right because these 1 million predictions are just nothing now but yeah we're always going to be looking back just like how in your own life your term ran ago while you know I wish I didn't use Bitcoin then and you know and I sold out for X amount and I could have had this much and we're going to be doing that with companies until the end of time you know think about it in 20 years time. When they're saying oh Tesla missed out that Bitcoin that they sold will be worth 2.3 trillion dollars now you know that we're going to be hearing about this for time in mortal and like you know even the ones like when was it Lily Allen who rejected 8000 Bitcoin for to do a gig you know in 2014 2015 so something ridiculous like that. These stories are going to just e-count the woodwork and and they're going to over to they'll be like the Bitcoin peak today right they'll be like the Tesla lost out on you know 9000 Bitcoin day because they sold out early but it's sad right it sounded like Tesla were rallying around Bitcoin and then obviously the you know musk had bought into the fudder around the environmental stuff and then you know things have turned around BlackRock now have an ETF and all the most of the information on the mainstream is starting to be a lot of money. So I don't actually sway around to Bitcoin being environmentally friendly so who knows what will be in a few years time. I do think we're lucky so far Dan that they are sticking to companies and they aren't writing these articles personally so it doesn't say on March 15th 2015 mad Bitcoin's bought himself lunch that lunch could have been worth 3 houses now and then that kind of thing I don't want that to be happening. Daniel Carrey what do you think about the price predictions 1 million dollars 2 million dollars and of course Tesla still has a little left. Well the big prediction it it seemed like at the beginning of the year was we were going to have a hundred thousand dollar Bitcoin and I think that that was like an expectation for this year. I bring that up because we're talking about 1 million dollar we're talking about 2.3 million what are the timelines for this because like a good point was made about the inflation of actual hard money as I guess you call it like cash money. So if Bitcoin is worth 1 million in 10 years what does that mean for the you know 5 6 7% inflation that happens every year to cash right like that's an interesting dynamic that I hadn't thought of another panelist had. To answer the question why we have so much like prediction price stuff and I can just tell you from experiences. You know as someone who's worked at Cwandaesk and is worked in the media as it pertains to price that is the most important story that readers want to read. That is just the data that is out there is that the number one thing when people are looking for crypto is they want to know about price. One thing that has happened this year that editorally that is happening with Cwandaesk is I don't know if you I'm sure you guys are aware that digital currency group no longer owns Cwandaesk and at the beginning of this year. They made a market change where they don't talk about web 3 they don't talk about NFTs they only talk about price because the new owners are wall street and they understand what the you know they understand what people want to read so what's getting pumped out in the media it's all about the markets and it's all about price. I'm not a fan of it because I think there's other things that we could be talking about but this is what people want to read. While we were while we were kind of discussing this topic I started thinking okay wait a minute why did Tesla sell their Bitcoin and so Elon I'm quoting Elon here the reason why we sold a bunch of our Bitcoin holdings was that uncertainty as to whether the COVID lockdowns in China would alleviate that was in the summer of 2022. So I suspect that Tesla actually wanted to get back into cash given that they had a factory in Shanghai that probably there was some uncertainty about this huge capital expenditure that they had sitting in China that they didn't know what they were going to be able to do with. You don't see this with a micro strategy right where they actually want to be in Bitcoin because they don't want to be in cash because they're going to hold it for a long time. Elon's not doing that right Elon needed money he had to get out of Bitcoin happens to us all sometimes got to pay the bills. So they're never going to think about it as oh like we lost a trillion dollars or whatever in 10 years they probably need that cash for some emergency situation because I think that Shanghai factory is actually running now but like it was not in a good position I think like when nobody knew what was going to happen with those COVID. So I think that the world is going to be a lot of things that are going to be a lot of things that are going to happen in China. Also another thing that I think might be a play here might be I'm not you know don't quote me on this everyone but is that Tesla I think gets a good amount of carbon credits that they then sell to space X. And by having a lot of Bitcoin because of the green mean green machine that they might be reducing the amount of carbon credits they get the ECG scores because they're holding Bitcoin which per transaction is XYZ amount of carbon. I don't know but that might be something to play with why they sold as well so they can I don't know. I want to go back to what Daniel said about the sale of coin desk it is incredibly unfortunate if they are going that direction with the articles I do enjoy kind of the mixture of price and then having a couple scientific articles or you know forward looking articles or opinion piece of just that picture. I can absolutely tell you based on you can go look at the job postings they have out you can look at the mix of articles that they have out they are totally focusing on markets. They're going to get into an indices and data business similar to Bloomberg but for crypto. I can tell you from experience that coin desk has never been profitable so this is the this is the direction that they actually have to go into because. You just look at all the layoffs in media media doesn't make money man you got to have some other kind of business that's why Mike Bloomberg was really smart about Bloomberg business week and having that media arm. And then selling those Bloomberg stations to traders which is like they make a ton of money off of that and I believe that that's the direction that going desk is going in with the new owners. That makes sense. I don't disagree I do think you're right and they're probably right to do it it's probably where the market is all of the other articles all of the you know big coin or cypherpone libertarian ideals. Probably not helping going straight for the the price is probably going to pay off better. Josh have more of this go down just one more thing to add is that Michael Casey who's the chief content officer there. He usually does an op-ed maybe once or twice three times a month and it used to be all about the digital dollar and the promise of access and he wrote a book about Argentina which got him in E. Crypto and I met him very early on you look at what he's written this year it's about Bitcoin ETFs. Yeah yeah I should all of you have more on this topic good. No I've forgotten what I was going to say but yeah it was it was about the the terminals and uh oh yeah that's right. Yeah coin market cap for instance um has turned into a paid for like to try and submit a coin now you have to pay quite a lot of money to get submitted so I think a lot of these info I think it makes a lot of sense for for a coin desk to actually head towards that terminal data feed thing. I think it makes a lot of sense and yeah I mean the rise of AI in publishing as well is a bit nasty because some of those articles are just awful and more and more people are using them because they're so cheap to produce but they're just awful to read and they always the same in conclusion. And like I just always know when something's been written by AI because it's the same format and yeah I mean maybe you get better. The the in conclusion thing drives me nuts because you don't need to tell somebody you're going to conclude it you just conclude it right. Right. Right. Only AI would do that or like a fifth grade or writing their first paper and then it gets corrected and they don't do that. Ah so glad to hear from professional writer because it just drives me nuts in conclusion I'm going to AI and I just I basically nowadays I scrolled out of the bottom and says in conclusion I just leave it. I don't bother reading it. Oh and what I can't stand now is they have the headline with like a question and you don't know who the person is. I skipped the first two paragraphs go to the third or fourth paragraph so they can just tell me the answer. Like they're trying to bury the answer in the article I'm like no I just want to know who is the actor who you know ran across three tennis courts naked. I'm like I want to know who the actor is but it's like so and so has been in so many films. But I'm going to buy a time to get to the third paragraph. It's like the actor's name the only information I wanted so yeah articles are getting worse and as Daniel mentioned I don't want to play it because they'll get all mad at us but there was a great sound life sketch in 1978. This is Dan Acroid playing Jimmy Carter and he's talking about in the future it's going to be great because Americans will be paid one million dollars a piece but one million dollars will buy a cheeseburger and you know it's just going to be amazing everyone make five hundred sixty eight thousand dollars every American will be a million there. So I don't want to. This was in 78 at the height of what was called stagflation right it was it was similar to what we just went through and it's what got Reagan elected. I'm glad you told me that was Carter because I wouldn't have known Dan Acroid doesn't look anyone like Jimmy Carter. They are they on son alive they have a thing they don't really dress them up at least back in the day. I think it's okay. They're just like how we say it's Carter it's Carter but yeah beautiful bed as he was just saying he's like I wouldn't you like to own a four thousand dollar suit everyone would like that it'll be amazing but yeah. But then everybody would have a four thousand dollars suit so then it's just like having a four hundred dollars suit. It's just that there's enough zero. Yeah I remember a big connect like a big like stadium event seeing a clip of that and the woman there was like. And the good news is we're about to give everybody another you know double the amount that they've got and everyone's like yeah. Swirl getting double the amount so hang on what. It's like that great Shell Silverstein poem where he's like I'll trade you a quarter for two dimes and of course I did it because two is more than one. And it just keeps going down and down and getting worse and worse but we're running out of time we got it for crypto. Somebody should start with FTT or the bottom should be FTT it starts with Bitcoin and it goes all the way down to FTT or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely there in the in the poem the structure the structure is good you start out and you're like oh I had one Bitcoin but I traded it for two light coin because two is more than one. I'm not a sucker you know but it's a beautiful poem. But we got to keep moving here we do have a bit of positive news from Andrew on Twitter at AP underscore abacus he writes update the Bitcoin having is in 74 days Bitcoin ETFs are the most successful ETFs launched in over a decade based upon both daily and total volumes and inflows. Expecting Bitcoin greater than 50,000 before the haveening or after the haveening expecting BlackRock Bitcoin assets under management greater than five billion dollars by the year end and expecting Schwab an additional Bitcoin ETFs to launch. So it's nothing but good news and now the bonus issue. Razzlecon Amazon is turning the four billion dollar Bitfinex Bitcoin heist into a feature film. And there's a great story on CNBC if you want to watch to get more detail on Razzlecon the Bitfinex hack. They had a lot of videos I hadn't seen before and a lot of information that I wanted to know that CNBC did a great job reporting on here. Crocodile of Wall Street and the battle over billions in stolen Bitcoin but now Dan E have I want you to know do you have rapper envy at Razzlecon the famous rapper. It almost seemed like they they live their lives knowing that this would happen one day but now there's going to be a movie. Yeah we still haven't found out whether like how they actually hacked right was was it was it was it was it was he was he some sort of a genius hacker. Or did he kind of you know find a vulnerability and just kept on pressing withdraw and it was just picking him out all this Bitcoin rock how did how did they do it. That that trial is going to be quite quite interesting to see how they from a technical perspective how they managed to funnel the money. But imagine just being in this situation and sitting on you know what was millions turning into billions of dollars and not really knowing what to do with it other than. Buy a few play stations with vouchers it just seems really what a crazy scenario that they managed to find themselves into like to to these unlikely kind of not heroes but but you know heroes in it in a hacking sort of side of things. But it's all seems to be all the rage right now all these crypto based documentaries and maybe that's because there's so many out completely outrageous scandals in crypto that you could just you know you can pretty much write a documentary off of. And essentially any ICO that's happened from yeah all of the the drama from every single cryptocurrency you've heard of from from reporter to ethereum and we're just going to see us you know again a plethora of these coming especially as we've seen earlier more. Heists that happened early on in Bitcoin's life. Bitcoin recovered from those and we'll see more of these documentaries coming out of the the wood boat but i'll be watching it. I haven't watched the other ones yet bit condon the Richard hard one I really want to see the Richard hard one because that guy's just crazy. But yeah i'll be i'll be watching the razzle calm one. The Richard hard one is interesting because they don't really come down on one side or the other there's still kind of undecided on it. Whereas bit cond really does seem like a straight up con and they are very interesting psychopaths you can check that one out on Netflix also shout out to david silver friend of the show. Who got interviewed in the CNBC little documentary there and I can't quite find it Dan but I do think the future of all these documentaries and the best the best section the most interesting graphics is when they show the big chart and they say the money went here and the money went there and the money went to there and that's what I always find the most interesting part I can't find it right now but Daniel Carrey what do you think about razzle con and the millions pilferd from bit phonetics. Yeah so i've been doing this for a while and I started out in 2013 as a journalist so i've been asked to be in some of these documentaries and I actually I am I was involved in a documentary that was filmed about a year ago about bit bit phonics and razzle con because I was around coin desk at the time of the bit phonics hack i'd been given like some information about it. I know that they had interviewed like bit phonics executives. We filmed for an entire day in Las Vegas me talking about everything that that went on I haven't talked to the producers in a long time but you know there's going to be a lot of these kind of stories particularly because razzle con. There's something that pops about that story you don't hear much about the husband because I you know he's I guess you know he's just like computer science guy he's not that interesting but the razzle con angler. It makes it all really interesting because when you look back at it and and all the things that I've read about this is like it's obviously like she knew she had done something really wrong and that she needed to you know she needed some kind of outlet and this with these like ridiculous videos were. And I remember like even before I participated in the documentary I hadn't really seen the videos and they showed me the videos and they filmed it and i'm like I remember saying something like this is not good this is like bad music. So I don't disagree with you that I think there's probably going to be more of these but they're not all going to be good right like there's a documentary or a movie. It has to have some kind of human or cultural element that makes that gives pop in life to people and unfortunately in crypto like crypto isn't like a great cultural story. Because we still haven't gotten to that point where it's like something that has really helped out and then a lot of people use so you know it's always going to be about heists and bad news and like bitcon and you know there was an sbf documentary that came out and I think that that was CNBC maybe or Bloomberg it's freely available available on YouTube but I thought that was really well done so some of them aren't great some of them are good I was told these producers that I work with were like. They had done stuff before so I went ahead and didn't had done it probably had done some things that I probably shouldn't have done in the past so i'm kind of choosing on these things now and I'd like to make sure like I know what i'm talking about before I get involved bifnics in particular there was one that I had done a lot of stories on so I felt pretty good about. Yeah any documentary that I ever talked to they never make the film so I always say the most brilliant and beautiful things and it's just wonderful and they thank me and they send me emails how great it was we enjoyed your contribution and then they never make the film. Sometimes it just doesn't get sold I think this one you know I obviously signed some things but like I haven't heard from them for a while so it's like they actually have to sell it to somebody to actually like finalize right they can show either a streamer or a studio something but if it's not like if they don't see it right away they're not going to buy it that's that's the problem so you could have been good but you don't know who else if they interviewed right like you know maybe maybe somebody wants to do something. But I wasn't wearing like a nice sports jacket like like you're calling a baseball game you know they're not prepared they haven't been studying Keith Overman like I have they don't have the chops but yeah it is always bad they never seem to make them but it reminds me which have a shout out to one galt who becomes kind of the narrator in the star of the HBO documentary the anarchists about the anarcho polka festival if you guys haven't checked that out check it out on HBO. I do think that he would narrate or do anything like that that's it's it's a great it's a whole series and you know they're just they're interviewing him but you know how documentaries there's always one guy who's like the voice of reason they go back to him and they're like don't you think this is crazy and he's like yeah it was crazy and one even has no even even comes around to the end and he's kind of questioning libertarianism I'm not going to give it too much away about the film it's a great sensational story about the film. I'm not going to focus on the stuff but really when there's a bad dude in your group you kind of have to kick him out even if you believe in the non-aggression policy and all these kind of things bad dudes and I can rule whole groups but I love this rossal Cant store the the husband I disagree with Daniel I think he's interesting because his nickname is Dutch and he's from Holland OK that's not bad interesting it's really there a lot you didn't explain why that's interesting the opposite. It's the opposite of interesting, but I do love every video I've seen of them is hilarious with the interaction. The woman really wants to be famous on YouTube. The husband's like, I'll make brownies on YouTube, whatever. Just leave me alone. And it's clear he's tired of being hassled for to be on her channel. Josh, she golly, what do you think? Amazon's going to make a big movie. We're all going to watch it. Rosalcon. It's a rapper hacker. Well, I still, you know, big shout out to Austin and Becky Craig for making a documentary about Bitcoin that wasn't about a big highest or something. You know, this was life on Bitcoin released in 2040, made in like 2013, 2012. And like the big story behind that is this would have cost them probably over a billion dollars in today's money. Probably the most expensive film made out there. And you know, they basically documented traveling around the world, just getting married and just spending Bitcoin back when it was almost impossible. And you had to convince every shop, no, no, take this. And, you know, I think I was in that movie I was interviewed for. I don't know if I ended up on the cutting room floor. I'd have to check that out. But big shout out to those guys. Yeah. I remember meeting a meetup. They were promoting that movie. And I may have written a story about this. I can't remember because it was so long ago. But the thing they really wanted to emphasize to me is like how ridiculously hard it was actually to do what they did. Like they thought it was going like they, I guess their concept of hard was not like, like we may not survive. Like I don't know how we're going to like we don't we don't have any money to give anybody. Like. Well, and now everyone does the I'm going to live on Bitcoin for a week article. And it generally goes really well and they don't push themselves. And it's been written a hundred times now. But yeah, Austin and Becky were really interesting back in the day. And it's a horror show now. Traveling, right? They were. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They were sitting at home for a week, just like converting Bitcoin for DoorDash or something. Like, I don't remember now. It was so long ago, but I feel like they did. Yeah. Somewhere. Yeah, they know they came to Berlin. I was living over there at the time and they, yeah, it was global, a global tour. Yeah. Well, and it would be it would be horrifying to people now. There's things like when Bitcoin was a dollar, they spent 30 Bitcoins on gasoline. Stuff like that happens in the film that will make you cry. But it's it is lovely. And they they do go through some stresses and things I can report to everybody. It is available now on Amazon Prime Video or Apple Video. A lot of these services for the longest time. I know they had a hard time getting distribution, even though it just seems like you upload a file in reality. It's a lot harder than that. So shout out to them for getting to that finish line, no matter how long it took them of getting some kind of distribution for their film. Hmm. But we're running out of time. So we're going to go to predictions or story of the week. Dan Eve, are you ready? The prediction or story of the week? Go ahead. OK, what were we going to do with the prediction? I don't have any predictions, sadly. No, I'm all out of predictions and stories. There's been no pigeons that I've saved. There was a there was a near pigeon event where it was just like there was just a white pigeon at the end of my driveway. And I walked open the door. I looked at it and it was just sat there and I was like, another pigeon for me to save. And it looked at me. That is a full way. So unfortunately, no more pigeon ventures for me. No more pigeons. Oh yeah, Dan opens the door. I see the pigeon drops his pants. Oh, I see. Have you look at my pants? They have one finally, but no, they don't. I can't remember if I mentioned, but I forgot to kind of, I forgot to, you know, Barry Larry and left him at the back of the garden. Then when I got back from holiday, I was like feathers all over the lawn and the cats had got him and, you know, good job. It was already dead. Is it worth? Oh, wonderful. A horrible coda to this story. More information we didn't need. Daniel Carrey, do you have a prediction or a story that we're hopefully not about to add pigeons? So I didn't know that this was going to be like part of the like I was going to need to predict something. So FYI, I don't know if you guys know this, but CoinDesk has a telegram channel. And so everything that they publish, you know, it's like a locked group, but you can see everything that they publish every day. Because I think they're you eyes not good anymore. This telegram channel just gives me everything that they're doing. I'm thinking just kind of looking at what what's been published is like, I think we're going to hear a lot more about Bitcoin learning. Like I think there's going to be more about this. It just seems like we're just starting a cycle and, you know, just just ahead of what's going to happen in 74 days with the having like I think Bitcoin mining is going to become a central story to that. What happens to the miners post having? I mean, okay, of course price is going to go up, right? But they're, but the supply that they're actually going to be mining is going to go down. So how does that affect them? How does that bring in more of this talk about energy? Again, like I didn't know you're going to put me in a spot like this. So like I guess we'll see if there's anything to talk about next week. More energy, FUD. How exciting. And I do have a prediction as well. Coin des, coin telegraph, Bitcoin magazine. We'll all not write about the 10th anniversary of the World Crypto Network. They won't write about the 10th anniversary of Matt Bitcoins and they won't write about the 10th anniversary of a Bitcoin group. Not all right, press releases. I tagged him on Twitter and I tried not to be sarcastic. That's the best I can do is I took the sarcasm down a notch. But yeah, they're not going to write about us. Josh, should go. If you have a prediction or a story that we go ahead. I think the Cobra Gregor thing is going to be very fascinating. What I find interesting about that is a matter of apparently taking their name off of it because they just wanted to, you know, they wanted to settle maybe and just have the no copyright on Bitcoin and blockchains and things. So it would be really, you know, but my prediction is that Cobra Greg, well this is the end of Cobra, you know, and we'll see that the judge just says, look, just sign it. Just sign that name. Just sign it. No, it's enough with your mumbo jumbo and your technical spaghetti. Just sign it. Just sign it. And he won't be able to sign it. No more puppets. No more puppet show. It can't be. My story of the week is I watched another one of the good movies that I've been saving. I'm trying to watch all the good movies now. This one was called Filmmaker and it's a documentary or film worker. Sorry, it's a documentary about a guy Leon Vitale who pretty much gives up his acting career after the movie Barry Lyndon so that he can work with Stan Ulyk Kubrick. And he's pretty much Kubrick's right hand man. He does all the extra work for him checking the prints, getting the colors right, checking the lights, even acting in eyes wide shut as the man in the red suit who controls everything. Leon Vitale, an incredible film worker, never really recognized but pretty much Kubrick's back, backhand man is his second hands and an incredible film. It's on Apple TV, something like that's like ten bucks. But that's about it for this week. Thanks to everybody in the chat for giving us a thumbs up down below. Be sure to check out the World Crypto Network 10th anniversary special. We played some clips and tried to scroll through the archive but it goes on forever. It's never ending. So we didn't make it through the complete scroll. But be sure to subscribe, put a comment down below and hello to everybody in the chat. Until next time, bye.