#393 — The Bitcoin Group #393 - Godcoins - DAO Danger! - Mainstream - Mt. Gox Pays

The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 years, the sharpest satoshi's, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, the Daniel from PubKey. Happy Friday, PLEBS. And Eve, the crypto raptor. Good Friday folks, yeah. Tray Walsh from Progressive Bitcoin podcast. Hello, hello. Josh Egala from the standard.io. Evening of Ben Arck from LNBITS. From my hello. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Lord, you told me to do this. Pastor, defense taking $1.3 million from failed crypto. Eli Regaldo said that God told him to start the I&DX coin project, and he's waiting on further guidance after the Colorado securities officials accused him of running a crypto scam. Yes, it's finally gotten to that point where now covering God coins. Will this be a one off, or will there be more coins inspired by our Lord and many others? The Daniel, what do you think about the new God coins? My coin is made by the Lord Satoshi, made you rest in peace wherever he is. This is a weird story, right? Because I mean, it's hard enough to get Bitcoin adopted. How does a religious person, a pastor get a flock of his congregants together to all invest at the same time and token like this? I don't know. There's something about the merger of religion and cryptocurrency that's very strange. Suddenly people just blindly ape in. It's reminds me a little bit of the RUJA Ignatoba story, but a low-bred version of that. They have this cult, and we saw that happen a few years ago with Bitcoin Act. It's always going to be one, but I think this is just the sign of things to come. I'm sure it will be much bigger ones, a much larger God-rug-pull in the near future. It is really impressive he was able to pull this off as they said he was in marketing previously, and then he used that power to market the index coin. Dan Eve, what about a God coin for you? I like how in the article they used the creation of Adam picture, but it had to state that it wasn't actually an image of the pastor, just fairly one that didn't know. But just to avoid any confusion, this isn't the pastor right here. But it's crazy, isn't it? There's often an error of self-importance to these things, that God told him specifically that he needed to raise all this money via this coin and not someone else. There's always something weird about that. Even now he's saying, I don't know how God's going to turn this around. He obviously believes the fact that God told him to do this chip coin money raise. Even thinking, he's got me in this mess. Goodness God, you've done it again. It's just a funny little side show thing. I don't know, it's crazy. God's not done with index coin or whatever it is. Yeah, it's sad. There's been from the dawn of time, religious themed fraud that happened all the time. There's plenty of it about. It was a matter of time until an actual pastor did it to a chip coin and they again created another bad name for Bitcoin because no doubt that's going to have some form of link, right? That Bitcoin's the bad thing here, not this crazy pastor who's trying to steal a load of money from people. But let's just hope God provides a miracle for him. And the bad thing definitely wasn't the religion that helped all these people invest. Tray Walsh, what do you think about God coins on the past? It's $1.3 million, a couple hundred thousand of which was used to improve their home. God also told them to do that. I mean, I think this makes complete sense. I think it's a very joll, esteemed type story of the mega pastor in Texas, Bitcoiner's favorite state. I think if it's right in, I mean, I have said this on my show before, my background was in like evangelical Christianity growing up in that. So I've seen charismatic pastors. I've seen young pastors look just like that. Crypto wasn't around when I was a kid doing that. But if it had been around, I guarantee I probably would have been at a congregation where that wasn't being reached and said, so it's not surprising at all. I think we'll see many more of these things. It's a powerful drug. And I think these type of people, they get in position to power very easily. There's not really many checks and balances. And you've got the God card. So I think we can expect to see this in quite a bit, quite a bit more. I do think you're right. This guy was incredibly small time. If he had a large political network, say hundreds of thousands of donors, he could have emailed us to. I think he could have gotten 10, 20 billion easy. Oh yeah. Yeah. Josh, Shagalla, what do you think about God coins, the new trend in altcoining? Yeah. The like like the other panelists have said, there's always been an air of scams that is possible through religious further. The merchandise scam obviously is a big one where you sell oils or cloths or anything that gives them luck. And the sheep will come. I mean, they even called sheep and some of these congregations. Yeah, it's unfortunate that people can use it. In a way, it's kind of it's similar to a Craig Wright affinity scam. You know, your affinity is with God and God is in your ear. So you must be right because God told me so. It's amazing that people actually fall for this sort of stuff. But yeah, unfortunately, they're doing, they'll keep on doing it. Pyramid schemes, investment scams in general, I've always taken plething. A lot of the time religious gatherings are, I know people that have become religious purely because of the business connections because you can come together and you start to make friends and you make business connections in that way. And yeah, so it makes a lot of sense. You can see these pyramid schemes happen like that to where people feel confident enough. He wouldn't scam me as a highly religious good man. And of course, yeah, they do. So yeah, be careful out there. If it's too good to be sounding true, then it probably is. That's not to say that someone can't talk about some sort of project and it always is a scam, you know, as well. So this is this is the thing. You can't just wholeheartedly call everything a scam because sometimes something might not be, you know, you never know it, but yeah, so it's hard on a show like this for the Germans, you know, to tell you a rule set. But generally, if it's too good to be true, then it's a scam, basically. Well, and obviously we don't want to get too much into religion here, although it is a great topic. But remember when they all went on the crusades, they also brought back trinkets, you know, pieces of the true cross, a thumb of a pope, stuff like that. And as Josh, I thought Josh was going to say about the carnivals and the faith healing and the way that people used to go town to town kind of praying on this ignorance and placing the hands among people. And you know, it's pretty easy to get someone from backstage to pretend to be crippled and then put your hands upon them and to cure them. That was the wrong word. But so on and so forth, we've had these problems with religion. So I think it's something where you have to take the good and the bad. And this is obviously $1.3 million of bad Ben Arck, what do you think about the God coins? We're going to see more of these is Vitalik going to declare his deity, deification soon. It's like you say like religion has been used to scam people out of money. Just since time immemorial, particularly if you have like a preacher or a pastor who's in the position of power. So with the Lutheran Bible, it was a shock to all the regular townsfolk when they could actually read the Bible. There wasn't all these crazy taxes, which, you know, local priests would have said there was a tax for you. You have to pay me tax for this tax for that. It's in the Bible and then when they could finally read the Bible, they're like, oh, it's not actually in the Bible, you're just scamming me. The scammers target the vulnerable and that's sort of in sensory prayer, which some evangelical Christians can lean towards where they want God to intervene. They're vulnerable and you know, they've usually got a reason for wanting some sort of help. And that's why a lot of these evangelical pastors, the Copeland types of this world, they'll say things like, you know, send me money and then I'll pray for you to be wealthy and then all these people send the money because they're vulnerable and they want a helping hand. So it's just a scammer targeting vulnerable people through the lens of religion, which has happened forever. And yeah, it will continue to happen. And I'm sure he's probably the first of many pastors who are going to jump on the crypto train, but it's it's a dire as well of like living by faith and just saying it's God's choice and what God wants to do and whatever God will save me from this problem. It always feels like contradictory to me, because it's like vanity that God really cares about you and it's going to bail you out, which seems like a contradiction in the Christian context, but there we are. But yeah, so yeah, it will continue to happen sad poor people. Yeah, personal Jesus. It's a good point though about that that happening to them personally, right? It's like, so they got to approach this guy and was like, you need to, you know, raise this this shit-quiting token and make money from it. Like surely is a good pass to be going, um, this sounds like great God, but what about if we save some babies dying in Africa first? We did the toe-to-head. Yeah, it's like, it's like God can't be bothered with the kids with bone counts. So he's going to just bail you out of your crypto scam. It's not my phone. That's actually a really good point. Like was there some sort of utility being advertised for this coin? Like what was its actual purpose? Was it, you know, if you give money to the pastor and buy his tokens to like, you know, kids in Africa, we're going to get to do that. No, he just said he just said you'll get rich, which is the, which is the usual line from the pastors, from those pastors, where the people will literally send them money and they will say, if you send me money, you will, you'll get rich, you'll become wealthy because God will like it, you know, and reward you. God wants us to be rich. That's why I've got my private jet and fleet of cars and whatever else. If nobody taking any riches to heaven. Well, the real problem here seems to be that he made this token. So he has this index coin. So people are investing in it. Whereas the other religious people in the past have just accepted donations by promising returns. He's crossed a line and become more of a stock broker less of a religious money collector. So it is interesting. But like we said, this is only the first of many. He only made 1.3 million exit question. The Daniel, how high will it go? What will the next God coin make? Oh, those are rookie numbers, man. We have to get at least 10 million. Dan Eve higher or lower than 10 million. Yeah, it's got to be in the tens right, tens of 50 or go home. Tray was higher. We've heard 10. We've heard 10 to 50. I mean, we've seen what I would argue from scam coins hit a billion. So let's say 500 million. I'll say 500 million. 500 million. I mean, a million with inflation at some point. I mean, come on. Josh, Shagala, can you go higher? Remember we're talking about religion. This is a very, very valuable coin. It has Jesus' face right on the coin. Well, I'm going to go that instead of value, we have two God coins where these factions break off and war for 100 years saying that their coin is the true God coin and your coin is but a scam. And the other team says the same. And they battle it out, murdering each other's families for decades. That's just what they said. The Hitchhiker's guide, they said, you philosophers can make millions of dollars debating this for centuries, almost like a controlled opposition. Ben, arg, higher or lower, we've up to 500 million. Quite a lot of money. You could also be an Islamic God coin. We have no idea what the next God coin will be. It'd be good if like, we know one of these, another one coin chick, like if one of them just becomes an out or now Messiah and just claims a remissiah for something. Then six million, of course. 600 billion higher, higher. It's going to be a big market for God coins. Everyone is excited. Wired magazine doesn't want me to read anymore articles there, but they've written one issue too. A dangerous new home for online extremism. Yes, Dows distributed autonomous organizations have been discovered by Wired magazine and Wired magazine is afraid, very afraid, as they say in the article, although a new technology can be used for good, we'd rather focus on its negative aspects. Dan Eve will Dows be used for terrorism? Well, it does seem like another one of these kind of, you know, skirm-angering kind of articles. Right? Picking what the worst thing that a Dow could possibly be used for. And dare I say, it has a few dog whistles, is it from depending on which side of the, I'm using this, the antinim kind of version of this, but it's saying it mentions alt-right neo-nazies and supremacy and things and says, it says, it don't, well, it kind of says in the article, it says cybercalifate, it kind of mentions a non-right wing type of usage of a Dow. It's more of a token sort of message, you know, mention of it. But you can't really take this seriously, these articles because like, when they, like, when they declared Pepe and a hate symbol, right? It's a hate symbol used by the alt-right because of this, that and the other. And this kind of, basically, article sounds like very much like that kind of point of view, right? You know, kind of a nuance like, oh, a green frog was used once for, for in a bad meme and therefore, everyone who uses the green frog that's just a funny stoner guy must be some sort of Nazi who wants to corrupt the planet. So it seems like a bit of a weird article to be honest, a bit of a skirmongering article. But you know, they're all the same thing, right? They hear about a new bit of technology and they suddenly get worried about how it can be used in some crazy ass way that probably is not going to be useful. And then get fixated on that for ages like we hear about Bitcoin. We're still here now of Jamie Dheim in the other days saying Bitcoin's used for money laundering all sorts. He's just extremely jealous because Bitcoin is being used instead of the dollar for his money laundering abilities. But yeah, I don't know, it's just a weird article really from, from, you know, kind of skirmongering about crazy, oh, right, Nazi people just using a dial probably for rather undifferentious purposes for most of them like a coffee one. It also seemed like it was a really late article. We've heard about Dows for years now. They should have been skirmongering earlier on now for them to scare monger. There's already been all this time they could have built whatever scary Dow that they're afraid of. Yeah, exactly. There's no there's no art, there's no actual real, you know, Dows have been around for years. There's no actual substance to the article is just all waffle. There's no example of here is how a Dow was used renewally and aferiously and, you know, and the police were involved and this was really bad. It's just like, oh, Nazis could use this for so and so and so. And the evidence of it, no, I'm just, I'm just, you know, being hypothetical here from my stool of knowledge about Dows. Stool of knowledge is my new band name. The bar stool of knowledge. It's also great that the article comes after all those articles saying how the terrorist groups don't want Bitcoin donations. They're too traceable. It keeps exposing their people and they don't want that. Tray Walsh, what do you think about the danger of Dows exposed by Wired magazine? Well, I think they're running out of things to cover like stories. I think they're just making the rounds and someone, someone spit balls, just see them spitting in a room and exactly, exactly what you said to him. It's kind of like, okay, this could hypothetically happen. This bad thing could hypothetically happen. And that's been mostly the attacks on Bitcoin and anything else is this could hypothetically happen. I mean, freedom of the press. Oh my gosh, they can print something and spread this out. That's bad. No more printers. I mean, you can go back so far. And obviously, we all know this. And I feel like I've been talking about this in circles forever and ever, especially facing the the fad from like Elizabeth Warren and left and stuff that I focus on a lot for my platform. But you know, it kind of makes me think Ben Archer, Rabblin, I recorded an episode a while back about Noster a few months ago in social media. And it's kind of more of a question of, you know, how do we want to live? How do we want to coexist as people now that we have this technology in social networks? Because it's almost like what you're describing is that a social network. So, you know, these these people haven't really figured out in their heads what to make of it. And people need things to be either good or bad. That's it's really easy for people to look at things and say, that's good or that's bad. Okay, there's no gray areas. There's no some tech is neutral. It can be used for both, you know, the concept of, you know, money for enemies. We talk about this. So I think people are really trying to grapple with what does the future look like? This stuff is here. How can we try to be good people and exist amongst these things? But most of it, I think, is just an article, you know, a company getting bored, wanting clicks. The backside of some people that actually believe this is thinking, how do we exist with technology? I think that's such a bigger question. We're going to be figuring out for very long time. Yeah, it doesn't seem like we're going to be able to deny the terrorists, organizational trees or flow charts or any of this other business technology that existed so many textbooks. If they want to have a Facebook or a social network, they're obviously going to be able to make one. And of course, Al Qaeda means the base, aka the database. But that's a whole CIA story we want to get into. Josh Shagalla, what do you think about DOWs and the danger exposed by wired magazine? Yeah, where do you start with something like this? Well, the thing is that every technology can be used for good, can be used for bad. I mean, you know, people that rob banks and murder people also wear shoes. And I'm going to write an article about how terrible shoes are because, you know, people can murder people while wearing shoes. It's shocking. Obviously, it's a total nonsense. But the interesting thing about these articles is that it's designed to basically find something that's really fascinating in this world. I find DOWs just as fascinating as when I found Bitcoin because it's really for me, apart from, you know, obviously you can also use it to scam people and all the bad stuff. But it's amazing that you can build a whole community with a legal framework, with also like a legal, I mean, with, you know, a set of rules, a set of votes, it's kind of a democratization. It's kind of, for me, it's like a fusion of of having almost like a socialist mechanism of what are they called? Ben helped me out here when re-adjacent. Re-adjacent. Re-adjacent. Re-adjacent. Re-adjacent. Re-adjacent. Re-adjacent. Re-adjacent. Yeah, cooperative. That's right. Cooperative. Mixed with capitalist ideologies where you can have a free market and go out there and figure out how to make your cooperative work. This is sort of fascinating because it's in a free mechanism. No one's forcing anybody to use it. Obviously, there can be coercion involved. But this is amazing, right? And why edge being a publication that's designed to highlight the virtues of technology, but also the downsides have specifically chosen here to go after the downsides. And maybe that's typical of the time that we live in where where clickbait is the highest of goals to head towards as a publication, as more and more readers flee to, I don't know, TikTok or some other distraction. It's hard to get people in. So yeah, it's just typical of the Bitcoin space, the crypto space in general. It's constant negativity. But yeah, I just don't understand it because you can have extremists anywhere like in any community. Why do you need it to be a DAO? It can have it in chat groups. You can have it in roadblocks. You can have it anywhere really. So yeah, it is what it is. But I think people are waking up to sort of, I guess, and the really new people will be like, oh god, stay with what? You're part of a DAO. Are you part of a DAO? Actually, the good sides is I see a lot of people that work in many DAOs. They go, they do a bit of work here and they do a bit of work there. And they build like a reputation amongst different DAOs to do, you're like, I don't know, whatever they do. Graphics are marketing. It's amazing. I guess these articles are there to make you doubt them. So you're a political affiliation there. I think the key there, Josh, is to replace the word DAO with gang. Are you in a gang? Are you in a DAO? I'm in a gang. I'm in a DAO. But yes, it is disappointing to see Wired Magazine, which could be a futurist magazine, much like the great Omni Magazine, dragged down to these depths. Like Josh said, I think a much more interesting topic would be what could a DAO with the AI do if it bought Bitcoin and then used the Bitcoin to do . . . . And that's a more, you know, sci-fi jumping off point where we think about positive things in the future, maybe inspire some businesses out there instead of this, which scares the crap out of people and maybe even inspires some terrorists out there, which is not what we want. Then our care thoughts on Wired's scare piece. Yeah, it's cool that the DAO thing participants, you know, to freely associate between DAO's, because that is pretty socialist utopere, you take your tools of production between all these different cooperatives. And you know, we want cooperatives to out to win in a free market because they are a superior. When we get the right tooling, they're a superior production paradigm than the corporate feudalist structure, which we use to now. But powerful, like rich, big powerful interests have always pushed their interest with lobbying groups or whatever. And this is just another tool which allows, you know, normal plebs, proletariat, whatever you want to call them to band together and then push whatever their interests might be. And I suppose that was the concern they were trying to raise, but what are you really doing is just empowering people to collaborate together. So they're not just just one person, it's like a collection of people who couldn't push an interest. It's quite funny in the article because the examples they gave of all these DAO's were just so goofy and stupid, but then they were like pushing this like dystopian idea of what a DAO could be used for. It's a shame that they hadn't read up and like read about things like assassination markets and all the dark shit which cryptos anarchists used to talk about because all this stuff's been covered years ago. And if they were far darker ideas, then you know, some fucking neo-naxes making a DAO. So yeah, it's just allowing normal people to band together and push their interests and it's good that DAO's are getting traction. It's something we should only have in the Bitcoin world. The other shit coin is a busy on it at the moment and I'm hopefully we'll end up with some DAO's and Bitcoin and we'll get to play around without stuff at some point. But yeah, it's a funny article just waiting till they finally read up on actual cryptos anarchist literature and what they thought DAO's would be. Well, and the main thing that a DAO enables you to do is to share money. All of these people, whites, supremacist, terrorists, they already have online communications. They already have chat rooms and message boards and whatever. This DAO would enable them to better share and to distribute money. But Daniel, what's your DAO affiliation? Do you fly any DAO colors? Do you throw any DAO signs? I have no DAO affiliation. I do remember the original DAO, which was a size little rug poll that happened after the theory launched. That's made me walk away from that whole world. I never really looked back at it and I keep seeing every once in a while, someone's promoting this or that DAO. It's usually for something like gaming or app design or some sort of education community. There's all these different ideas that have come out of that world. I don't see benefits using that versus just building your own community directly. We just built a community on NOSTER. We built communities on telegram. You can use other technologies besides these blockchain token assets to distribute the value of or value economy that exists on NOSTER right now. It's fun. I went to read that article and I couldn't get around the freaking paywall. We would have been nice if there had been a lightning QR code I could have asked. Maybe that's the good use for it down. I used to subscribe to Wired back when they were a paper magazine and they actually had good reporting. Over the years, it just got worse and worse. They wrote a lot of hit pieces on Bitcoin and it just got really boring to read that kind of stuff. It feels like lazy journalism and they're just recycling stuff from the last cycle because they know it's coming back and it's going to get attention. I don't see any value in this kind of article. It just seems like somebody had a fever dream about Nazis and what supremacy and decided to wrap it in this DAO idea, which is nonsense. They just look like they. That's what it is. It is so interesting, Daniel. You said you see the article and you see Wired. You see the mast head and you're like, oh, I can trust this. This is the old magazine I used to read, but much like they found out with sports illustrated having AI people writing articles and fake AI writers and so forth, these magazines are much like the brands of the 70s and 80s like Polaroid and Atari where they've just been sold and resold and sold and resold and yeah, you can get a camera that says Atari on the side but has nothing to do with the game console. This may be their last gas. They seem like they're grasping and they're you know for attention and readers and I know they're not what they used to be. It's not the same company and I wouldn't read that stuff. So maybe they'll be going the way of sports illustrated soon. I can unfortunately report from my Facebook ads that you can subscribe to Wired for a whole year for five dollars, which seems really cheap, but then also the quality of what you're getting goes down as well. Exit question, Dan Eve, let's try to turn this around. Let's think of a positive use for a Dow could be an existing Dow that you like or just something that you think about the future. What would be a cool Dow? I like the idea because I used to have a flat in a block and there was like a management company that the RANN and they charged a fortune and did a crap job. So I've always liked the use case of like people who own a flat in an apartment block running a Dow to actually to run the maintenance of that block and have full control over that and the money. I think that's kind of a nice community idea. All right, community Dow. Tre Walsh, what's your idea for a Dow? The progressive Bitcoin I'm just kidding. My mind isn't there. I'm so focused on Bitcoin and money. The thing that kept popping out to me is you remember the craze over I say remember it was like a year ago over the metaverse. The metaverse was going to take over and that in my mind is kind of this Dow collective concept was then and then it completely died away. So I'm not saying that a lot of folks into virtual reality and augmentation and things like that in terms of the metaverse. So I think I think the idea I'd be really interested to hear more from Ben on this maybe offline too, just in terms of like those type of things in Bitcoin or any smart contract and things like that. I think are super, super interesting for any variety of groups. We've got a lot of systems crumbling right now, whether it's governments global financial system. So this is definitely going to rise. Let's hope the good guys jump into this as well. That's what I'd say. I would like to see a metaverse Dow. I think that would be a more authentic way for the metaverse to develop. If you go back to Snow Crash, again, they're really just describing the internet here where a bunch of servers come together. But no one thought Facebook would make a virtual world and then maybe gift it to humanity. And then we get the metaverse that people really want where it's all chaotic and free and full of porn. Josh Legala, what would you like to see in a Dow? Yeah, I think that I mean, fundamentally, Dow's a giant multi-seag that allow people to vote with their signature. So yeah, I'd like to see basically a major, a major, like something like an Uber or something where all the drivers get to vote on something or other, you know, a change. Yeah, there's all sorts of things you can do. And I'm really looking forward to the future. It's just probably people like Gary Genslid will jump in and you know, piss all over the any idea that comes out of the free market. Obviously, there's going to be things that people call scams because their experiments actually and some experiments fail. But this is the whole nature of freedom and freedom of use and freedom of ideas is that you try wacky things and maybe some things work. Yeah. I think there are a lot of traditional business structures that could be replaced by a Dow, especially like you said, Uber, Task Rabbit, any of these like dot com gigging service companies where it's really just a central switchboard. In a lot of ways, it could be replaced and that switchboard could just buy network resources or whatever you need for it. So I could happen. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Arck, what's your idea for a Dow? Maybe a Metaverse Dow or a Noster Dow? Well, I kind of feel that I liked the make a Dow thing for a while. The idea of like there's a vault and then you put stuff in and then you get some shit going out and then the participants of the part of the federation, maybe they control the vote convert on what that money spent on or whatever or the reason or what it's used for. Well, I kept, sorry, the make a Dow thing kept a pegged in this. It kept like, created like a stable coin or something. But there's certainly something like federated, multi-stick systems. And that's why all this traction is going on with FedEment. And I think that that's something I wouldn't mind seeing is like an E-cash federated system, which kind of works like a Dow maybe. But you know me, I mean, I want small countries to use this technology to free themselves from the hedging me of imperialist powers such as US and and the UK, you know, Wales, we want our own wash pound. And maybe that could be through a Dow, make a make a Dow type thing, a vault. We should put Bitcoin in and we get wash, wash pounds out and it's somehow using arbitrage and not arbitrage. What's it called? You use buying and sell back to the vault in order to keep a pegged. And I think my Dow quite successful this for a while as an experiment, whether that could be done on a federated E-cash system like FedEment, I don't know. But it seems very promising to me that the tool is there now for countries which don't have big financial institutions and infrastructure to be able to create their own currency, their sovereign currency and free themselves from, you know, bigger currency players like the USD. Now I see that would have been a much better article. How Dows can develop the Welsh pound and like what that could mean for Welsh independence, Scottish independence, all kinds of other groups that want to have their own token or monetary value and share it with each other. Because then it's wrong. The federated multi-sick system like that, you can do things like you can do things like fiscal stimulus, but it's a lot harder to pull that lever, you've just turned on the money printer. You can only really do it like if there's a really good reason to enable votes on it or there's some horrible economic crisis in that level of votes on it. So I think it's got our power. There's certainly something in it. Of course now when you say the Welsh pound, I'm thinking of that viral image last week of the the Irish national vault full of Irish and butter gold butter. The Daniel, what's your idea for a Dow? I still haven't heard my idea yet, so I'm still good hanging in there. How about Congress Dow? We get a Dow to replace Congress and that would actually make it more accountable to the people who elect their representatives and what they do with our money. And maybe they can write laws that don't actually destroy things like self-custody and make it impossible for people to use decentralized technology that they even don't understand themselves. So perhaps there's a way we can use this technology to help them understand these things a little bit better and make it a little more accountable to our people. I think that's their real fears that we'll all form together into a big gang and we'll start sharing our money and voting on our governor's ideas and we won't need the existing government. We can just use government 2.0, a layer on top of existing government. That's not- That's not- It makes it easier. It makes it easier to vote, vast multisegs, you know, one signature, one vote. So Toshi, there it is, one signature, one vote. But my idea for a Dow that I've talked about before is the record label Dow. The Dow produces music, it pays people to make the music, it gets the MP3s, puts them on the market based upon what sells. The Dow tries to make more music like that. The problem with this Dow, much like many of the other AI-powered ideas, is that it would be completely on its own and completely out of control. So while at first I would hope it would make kind of rock alternative music that I would like soon, it could be making pop or techno or whatever the most popular music is. And with all horrible things, it could be replaced by porn and terrorism as negative images could take over this Dow and soon it's producing pornographic terrorists to albums. Whatever the most popular thing is. So record label Dow, still available, you could steal it, you could make one. And now they just made one. Moving on, check out the World Crypto Network at worldcryptonetwork.com. We've got 3492 videos. You could watch them for three months, 18 days and two hours without taking a break. That would be fun. Issue three, more banners on websites. Coinbase, institutional execs say, crypto can go mainstream, with spot beat Bitcoin ETFs now live. Yes, all of the other things that you did in the past for Bitcoin are nothing compared to Wall Street, who has now made it okay to buy Bitcoin okay for it to be mainstream. Because now you can buy it in an ETF where you can't really use any of its properties and its revolution will be failed, much like radio and other technologies of the past. Tray Walls, what do you think of the Coinbase executives who have finally made the world safe for Bitcoin to go mainstream? Well, you know, an interesting question. I'm curious who the custodian is for most of these ETFs. That'd be an interesting one too. Oh, it's Coinbase. So, yeah, I mean, of course, I, you know, it's really funny because like a year ago, not even there's still some people that like Coinbase is going to crash and burn. Coinbase just keeps getting stronger and stronger even to my surprise. I mean, they're legal mites, they're business acumen. In some senses, they are crushing it in terms of their business staying relevant, staying afloat. There are many people that, you know, if you said a few years ago, Coinbase was going to be custodian for these ETFs and still be around and growing in 2024, they'd be like, absolutely not. It's going to crash and burn by 2022. It's going to be like FTX. It's going to be like all these others. They're hanging in there. I mean, I have so many conflicted views on the ETFs in general. When I have conversations about the reason that I get into like Bitcoin in this ecosystem with people using it and peer-to-peer ways and the global south, things like that, my interest in the ETFs just tanks. Whenever I have these conversations, I'm like, I don't care about this anymore. But then, you know, in this kind of Western view, there's some people that are going to benefit. Some people have it in their retirement funds, things like this. So, you know, people do what they want. I think it'll be interesting, but what's been very interesting is grayscale selling off so much of their Bitcoin, like billions and billions the past two weeks. And the price has, yeah, dented a little bit, but it's like 1-800th, you know, of the market cap. There's something of Bitcoin, right? So, I can't emphasize enough, the market is huge. Like, the Bitcoin ecosystem is huge. So, the ETFs, for some people, I think some people felt like the ETFs are going to be the Bitcoin market and we should already be at a million per coin right now. Well, it kind of proved like the ETFs are still very, very, very, very tiny. They will grow, I think, in terms of market value of Bitcoin and things like that. But it isn't a big deal. Sometimes, I'm like, it's actually not that big of a deal. Sometimes it feels like a bigger deal. So, you know, it's conflicted, but of course, Coinbase is going to say this. It is funny, like you say, as a Bitcoiner, when I look at the ETF, one of my first question is, how do you send and receive your ETF? Do I get a wallet? And we all know the answer, so that is no. And you can't send or receive it. You can't do anything with it. Also, for Coinbase, their largest enemy, I would say, Binance. CZ is gone. They've been smack down. In a lot of ways, that's a big victory for Coinbase who always followed the rules and tried to be the rules-based exchange. Josh Jagall, what do you think about Coinbase saying that it's okay for crypto to go mainstream now that it's an ETF? Yeah, like I said, it's interesting who's behind the interest. What I find amazing is that the SEC gave the green light to 11 of these things after just being so hardcore with their roadblock in this space. But the thing is, with mainstream adoption, it's only a matter of time until one of these big ETFs has an incident at the custodian level. So, I hope they don't, but I think they could and probably will. We'll see what happens then. But, yeah, I mean, of course, mainstream, like Trace said as well, you have these conversations. I'm also very conflicted by my idea log, Cypherpunk, routes. So, Bitcoin, you send it, you bank the unbanked, you unbank the banked and you get on with it. But with this ETF, it's like, wow, price goes up because billions of dollars can flow in. And we've talked about it many a time on the show about it being a nice Trojan horse standing there at Wall Street walls. But, yeah, it's definitely a step towards mainstream adoption for sure, for sure. Because people trust it more. What do you mean that I can buy Black Rocks now offering? I mean, obviously, that's a big trust factor. But one thing with a grayscale sell off, they also report because they had to sell because it was a legal loop that they had to do. So, they had to sell it and rebye in a certain way. I'm pretty sure. The thing that surprised me right now is the FTX liquidators are selling a shed load of Bitcoin into the market at something like 16 grand because that was when they went down. Yet it's sitting up there by 40. And at least with Mt. Gox, they said, oh, well, we're going to give you the Bitcoin. But the FTX liquidators in the States are like, we're just going to sell at 16 and anything that's profit above at 40 is actually our profit. And the lawyers and liquidators get to keep that stuff. It's phenomenal. Like, hang on a minute. It's such a broken system. You've got all these people that have lost funds and everything and you're going to legally now sell it off at a ridiculous price. Destroy the market while doing it. I mean, it's okay because they could sell it into these massive ETFs, spying it up. So, yeah, it's an interesting time. But anyone thinks that these markets are going down because of the ETFs are totally wrong. We're heading into a harvining where there's just so many things that are heading into the right direction. So it's weird that the liquidators can't just hold on for a little bit longer or give people the Bitcoin back like Mt. Gox did. It's always a good idea. Only a few weeks ago, we read the liability, the customer liability is just like 1.4 billion from FTX. But the legal fees were like 1.5 billion. Yeah, it's so shady. It's so shady. Well, it's always interesting when you let someone else hold your Bitcoin for you. And then they're like, oh, we'll give you a piece of floss, three pretzels, and a candy bar. They're like, I had a whole Bitcoin. And they're like, okay, we'll throw in 10 wacky coins. Oh, 10 wacky coins. That's much more than one. But yeah, it is interesting with like Joshua saying with the, we talked earlier about the religious ideas. Maybe the Bitcoiners are being tested with the ETF and the businesses taking over Bitcoin. And in the same way, it's a Trojan horse for them. It's also a Trojan horse for the Bitcoiners where they have to be something that they're not or watch their precious Bitcoin become something they don't want it to be. So it's interesting times. Ben, Arck, what do you think about Coinbase saying we're finally good to go mainstream, now that Wall Street will make all the money? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean that ultimately, it is the Trojan get behind enemy lines. And these are the tools of liberation Bitcoin, probably key crypto decentralized consensus mechanisms, which have the Bitcoin as well. So that being deployed, it has to happen, it has to get behind enemy lines, it has to get, it has to penetrate the like, see financial system. And it's, they're going to love Bitcoin. In the world, there isn't a lack of money. There's this moment in there that has been in the world. The average normal person of course, we're all suffering from inflation and whatever else. But for the rich people in this world, there isn't a lack of money. There's a lack of places to put their money in Bitcoin. It's this wonderful new place where they can now put their money legitimately because they have these wonderful ETFs. And all that ocean of liquidity is going to is going to flood into our little pond Bitcoin. And I predict that this will be the second to last great pump, the ETFs, is going to really impact the price. The final great pump will be when the world will use as Bitcoin as a world reserve currency. But this is on the road to that. Not only that, does it will have an insane pump and then we'll get the Trojan Pine Enemy lines. It does legitimize Bitcoin in the eyes of normal people. No longer can that line be used that Bitcoin is this dark internet money used by drug dealers. If they're all using it, if they're all participating in it. And Bitcoin ultimately will become more stable, then become more usable as well. So all in all, it's a good thing. And I agree, I think the ETFs are a pretty huge, because all this huge institutional investment of all these time and funds and whatever else, which have many, many billions and trillions can flood into it, can flood into Bitcoin. Yeah, that's going to pump. I think the real key here, and it's the opposite of what we usually say is to get Wall Street to invest more than they can afford to lose. As soon as they've crossed that point into the Bitcoin, that's where we can start to say, hey, maybe it's time to unpack the Trojan horse and unleash the soldiers. The Daniel, what do you think about Coinbase? They've finally freed the world from mainstream Bitcoin. Thank you, Brian Armstrong. I was waiting for your permission to buy Bitcoin all these years. I don't know. It's me, I just feel like an insult to all the open source developers over the past decade and a half who've been contributing mostly unpaid or paid very little and take a big risk to be here to do these things, to build Bitcoin into what it is today, going through the block size war, all the years of bud, and strife in community schisms to get to where we are now. Not to mention the Hobbler's, committed all the way through and the people who use it and built technology on Lightning, on Liquid, on SideChains. Everything that's being done right now within Bitcoin is independent of what Wall Street is doing. They don't even know about this stuff. They don't know what a UCXO is. They don't know what the having is. They don't understand the supply cap. Most of these people who are investing in ETFs are just looking at price charts. Echo something lid all then said recently. They don't even know what the logarithmic chart looks like. They don't have a clue what has transpired up until now and what's coming down the road. We all see it because we've been there. We've seen how these cycles have played out but they don't. They see something in their mind still looks like beanie babies. It looks like tulips. They'll use those words all the time because to them they don't understand the mechanisms that make Bitcoin into what it is and so reliable store of value. Congratulations Wall Street. You discovered that. You discovered a store of value. Good for you. You're so picky. I'm so proud of you. But no, I find it really insulting and it really doesn't matter to me if people are buying the ETF or not. Sure, if you want to put it in your 401k, that's great. Probably can outperform everything else in there and you probably should have that. If you don't trust yourself the whole G's and you don't want to put your trust in an exchange that you've never heard of before but the rest of us are just going to keep moving on. Bitcoin doesn't care. This stuff doesn't matter to people who've been dedicating their lives and their careers to this industry. I think you're right Daniel. We should be having kind of a bit corners where right moment but we're not having that and instead we're having a welcome Wall Street. Wall Street was right all along which doesn't jive with the charts or the reality or anything else and when we were talking about Bitcoin for years, they said like you said it's drug money. It's gangster money. It's dirty internet child porn money, whatever it is. Now that Wall Street in, it's all fine. It's interesting to see how something like the stock market and the game stop stocks was made so easily into a movie called dumb money but we still haven't seen a movie called stupid bit corners where it's like oh like Daniel is saying like hodling through all this stuff watching it go up and down getting called names getting made fun of having people lose their keys, steel keys, all kinds of things the ups and downs of these days and no no credit no no no Wall Street just takes it all by Josh. I have to say though like we you know I've run a Bitcoin exchange a small one, a small niche one called bulls or a comms since 2014, 15, early 50 and you know what Brian Armstrong has achieved there is miraculous like it's very very it's probably the hardest start up startups are hard already that are startups are the hardest things you can do in life apart from you know having children I guess but it's it's extraordinarily hard in itself and then you add the idea that your startup is going to go up against banks and governments and regulators who don't know where it is and the battles that just our little crappy exchange had are so immense on a constant on a constant you've just gotten over something and then the the regulator will come in and say now you need an anti-money laundry guy you get that person and then the bank shut you down and then then the next bank shuts you down and you have to open another bank and it's just a constant onslaught of of of of things that you need to solve problems and and for for Brian to you know yes the the open source and all the developers are doing that in the background on Bitcoin absolutely agree they need to be praised more than they do because they hardly get anything the block size wars were really offensive to some of these people that that got shits lung at them really personal attacks left Bitcoin we lost we lost some some some foot soldiers in that because so much shit was being slung that they just couldn't handle it you know they they some some developers couldn't handle it and so really yes that that needs to be praised but also on the side of the centralized on on wraps and off wraps which are an important aspect to Bitcoin because you know God remember when there was no on right on an off wraps you had to jump through a million hoops going through bit uh you know what was a called Dwala and and uh you know I don't know second life and try to get some second life credits so you can send it to something else to finally get Bitcoin hard as hard as hell that's not going to change the world like that what is going to change the world is someone can easily get paid in something and have that white fungerable between that and the money that is mainstream at the moment and hopefully that the the wishes that our money becomes mainstream you know Bitcoin becomes mainstream or whatever you're into and so um so I can I could go respond to that yeah please one one point you made which was that Brian Armstrong if you remember was on the other side of the block size war he was with the big blockers he was with the miners he wanted to turn Bitcoin into a payment coin and only a payment coin for big banks he was not interested in decentralization he was not interested in the promise of what Bitcoin really is here to deliver which let's not forget to replace central banks not to become part of Wall Street so I just want to remind people of that because sometimes that gets forgot yeah but at the same time you know what what is the block what is that that war that war was okay Satoshi built it in a way where you can have an upgrade and if you decide that that's not the upgrade for you you don't upgrade and it splits off and you get to bet well I get coins on both sides so I don't know what the what the best way is is it's more as a big I don't know as as a normal user I'll just have coins on both and we'll see what happens Brian Armstrong at the same time originally only had Bitcoin for the longest time and didn't sell like coin didn't sell any of this other stuff stood next to Bitcoin and Brian made his choice I think maybe maybe Brian got a lot of influence from Roger Verne because he was an early investor in Coinbase so maybe there was I don't know what was in the background there but just like you choosing as a user who you want to use people can choose to use Coinbase or not there's no there's no force the SEC coming in and saying well you know I can imagine making Coinbase giving Coinbase some sort of monopoly and saying they're the only custodian you can trust that that's dangerous but Coinbase is also a free free to use and free to trust the problem with that I see is it's crypto you know purest kind of guys that I don't I can't verify anything that Coinbase does so I don't like to use them personally but yeah I'm just saying that you do need to give kudos to some of these companies that have lasted such a long time haven't you know yes they've done terrible things like hand over stuff to tax but what do you expect to a centralized authority and that's what they're going to do to expect anything else is ridiculous but yeah it's an important part of it yeah it's all part of the growth of Bitcoin on its way to becoming the world reserve currency and having an apolitical money as a world reserve currency it's the half the Trojan is going to go big these big institutions these big exchanges the banks central banks they're all going to start engaging with Bitcoin we're going to have to get used to that but we may feel some ownership over it because we were there early just like people you know early innovators in the internet and they had they felt ownership over and then I'm pissed off when all these big companies and corporations came in and started using the thing which they've been building with free and open source software and collaboratively laying down the ground works for and I empathize with that but you know we we don't want Bitcoin I personally don't want Bitcoin to remain a small underground scene or choice I want it to be accessible by the whole world and yes people will engage in it in a way which is probably custodial it's probably this is probably that but then most Bitcoin is dead before they learn that they can they can have this stuff in an orchestra away before they learn that they can keep their own keys so it is it is part of the process of people learning those tools of liberation and it's also important to remember as well that like with the the block size wars there were a bunch of big blockers you stayed with us in Bitcoin and good for them you know like they they put their argument forward for increasing the block size and then that wasn't accepted and they're like okay it's not accepted I'll carry on using Bitcoin though because you know I it's it's power and its value is actually in that consensus mechanism and I personally want a bigger blocks but back then but you know it's it's I was happy to I wasn't going to fork off if I can start using some shit coin so but yeah so it was a very complicated moment in history where the users proved that they are the ones who control Bitcoin and I'm sure that fight will have to happen again because some of these big institutions big investors when they they start you know really enforcing their power and trying to join enforce that power over the Bitcoin protocol the users will need to step up again it's not something which is going to it's going to be the one fight we had with the block wars but yeah we're ready I'm ready for them but yeah it's it's this is all part of the process of it becoming the apelistical world reserve currency which is what we want because the world is well that that mining the proof of work side of Bitcoin is a really nice separation of wall street and block because this is something that Ethereum doesn't have with the proof with the proof stake is that these massive ETFs can have a huge control although if 11 of them come out plus that's just in the states if you have multiple ETFs around the world maybe that is decentralized enough these huge these huge silos but yeah I see that as a problem definitely it's the possible attacks on Bitcoin as well when you have like you know for the countries the big countries lobby together instead okay then we're going to allow people to use Bitcoin but only coins in which you can account for the entire history and we're going to attack the fungibility of Bitcoin by making its coins worth less effectively on the market and that's that would suck but we yeah but we all know the killer app for Bitcoin really is conferences and they were taken over by you know the lawyers and regular and there's a good point actually like those conferences for a while there's some conferences you go to and when you're there you're like why am I working in this industry like is what am I doing like am I am I my right all these tickets like that's been around for fucking years man like that's that's not a new thing you've got going on well going back to the block size where we said that we would welcome those people back and even though Bitcoin doesn't care what we say or do we do welcome them back but I want to say that that both Daniel and Josh are right here that coin base and Brian Armstrong were on the wrong side of the block size war but we're still fortunate to have Brian Armstrong we could have had someone much worse in there someone much out for their own gain much more making their own token betraying coin base betraying people more there could have been worse people to be the CEO of Coinbase and if you want to know more not that we know Brian personally but if you watch that documentary called coin it's on Apple movies and Netflix I think and really goes the behind the scenes how much Brian just worked all day long he just worked on this thing he wakes up he works on it he goes to bed he works on it seems to have no life at all and that's what it takes sometimes to be a successful startup founder I want to second what Josh said about fighting against the banks and building a startup being an incredibly hard thing so even if we're critical of Brian Armstrong and of coinbase often we do respect what they've done and what they're still doing but Dan Evesman waiting a long time Dan Eves what do you think coinbase say it's okay for Bitcoin to go mainstream now that it's you know owned by Wall Street I mean yeah obviously it's not it's not on their authority but the pipe dream of like Bitcoin spreading around the world by you know Alice and Bob visiting every single business and shielding Bitcoin and forcing them to take except BTC pay server and and all these other things to to get them on board and that was a nice utopian dream of how Bitcoin would make it mainstream but let's face it it will be the big retail giants that make it really go worldwide and that's because one of the the hardest thing to do with with with traditional or any business in crypto is to is to bring the non crypto people in and convince them that crypto is a good thing and and now that there's you know there's the heavyweight's like black rock behind it it does lend credence to the fact that Bitcoin isn't just this the various things so you know that as much as Alice and Bob doing their their their door-to-door business shielding like that just made a enough escape velocity for everything else to all the other infrastructure to be put in place behind in let's face it as well like you know are you in any as you said like any of the centralized exchanges are going to have to bow down to regulators right if they want to stay they they're just either going to shut their close to their doors like kind of like how I suppose how Bitrix did right they just kind of went well I've had enough of this we've tried to play ball and you know it's not work so we're still getting sued we're just going to shut shop and they play along or they they shut the doors so if you are a business owner and you want your business to stay to stay along you're going to have to you know do the KYC and all the things that are pretty crap and you know everyone was booing when you first go into Bitcoin and as part of the reasons why you got into it but you know it is the tro is the the Trojan horse right and what it is weird that eight of the eleven surely that's I mean there's a gotta be a some form of risk there right like eight of the eleven ETFs are using Coinbase custody that's that's quite a lot you know that's that's like when I was in like you know the Treasury Department of old company it was like you had to register a risk if like you know three out of the eight people on the team were on the same airplane or something like that you know that would be registered of company risk so why is eight eight out of eleven you know using the same custodian that seems like a big risk that the regulators kind of let let coin let it happen really I don't worry about it the SEC's got a covered mate don't I think there's there's still a chance for Brian Armstrong to have an oceans eleven type robbery of his own company we have no idea allegedly could be possible though yeah and it's and it's it's it's a risk quite especially is inside jobs are usually the main you know the main form of these sorts of big institutional hacks like yeah and there's so much money so much Bitcoin and it all fits in one suitcase but we're running out of time still a chance for people to give us a thumbs up down below let's go to the exit question predicting against the magical predictor of all Bitcoin truth will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week tray walls higher or lower I think higher we've got an interesting end to the week this week um started to creep on up a little bit more than I thought already uh I don't know what happened in the past hour but uh I think we're going higher quite a bit higher joshigala higher or lower oh sorry yeah yeah no I agree that there is a bunch of stuff in the background um that that I'm yeah I think this massive sell-off was FTX and a whole bunch of things and then there was nothing left there's nothing left all the diamond hands are the only things left uh after this huge long bear there's nothing left so and there's a lot of buyers wanting to get in on let me see going up from here I tried to sell but there was nothing left to sell ban arc higher or lower higher we've just got that hodla bedrock of very well-informed Bitcoiners and uh yeah we've heard such a long bear mark it's higher there's yeah it's so liquid um and uh the good thing about the massive pride imminent price pump from the ETF is yeah or so because a bunch of all street people will get a little bit richer but it will free a lot of Bitcoiners to work on the Bitcoin projects full-time which has been the bootstrap effect of Bitcoin's crazy price increase over the past decade so um higher the Daniel everyone saying higher we've got a positive bull trend here what do you say higher or lower I'm going to say lower but I'm talking about the dollar exchange rate to satosies I think we're going to see a dollar become worth less than two thousand sats well oh below the two thousand sat barrier again dan eave I started with you higher or lower go ahead but I think it's higher and the reason specific reason why is because a bunch of uh all writers are going to read that wired magazine they're going to be totally inspired to go and call some deviance in the world so they're going to create a dow by loads of Bitcoin put the Bitcoin in the dow therefore making the price go up only up and then that's going to read the reason for all the price going out next week so it's not it's it's all for the Nazis I blame the dow's and now the source of all truth the magic eight ball will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week reply hazy try again well sometimes the ball just doesn't want to predict moving on to the next issue issue four two hundred thousand Bitcoin poised for release mount gocks confirms repayment we've also got bitwise who's published their ETF holdings address after on chain sleuths discovered test on this screen oh is it desktop screen that makes it more exciting let's try this one there we go no it worked uh but we've got two hundred thousand bitcoins coming out of mount gocks bitwise as published their ETF address after black rocks were discovered and the US plans to sell 130 million and Silk Road bitcoins again let's go to Josh the gola what do you think choose a story grab bag well my my my story is definitely mount gocks one of been waiting a very long time the whole mount gocks community I guess of people that lost in there have been waiting for the legal front to stop chomping away at their free lunch and start to actually distribute but why distribute when you can keep chomping who knows it's sort of like like how council workers or these companies that do the council work do it per hour and then never stop digging that one single hole in the middle of the road that's really important road why why cover that whole up when you can keep getting paid to dig yeah oh you know one of the things that I've held haven't held my breath for is that that the distribution won't be hacked in some sort of way or the person that's actually sending the bitcoin over to to start distributing them to the creditors of mount gocks wouldn't screw it up in some way or be corrupt in some way so we've got a long way to go to seeing that but for those that think that or we'll read that wow mount gocks are sending 2,000 bitcoin or 20,000 or 200,000 bitcoin actually I think it's a 145,000 bitcoin there has been many a survey done you know obviously surveys aren't always correct and they go out of date pretty quickly as people people's financial situation changes but most people stated that they would bottle their bitcoin further they they won't sell on getting them they will have the sell their bch that's that's interesting not saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing you know but it's it's interesting that most people said I'll definitely sell my bch or coins as soon as I get them for more btc well it's been so long with mount gocks Josh I'm not sure if the problem if the tragedy is that people lost their coins or that they jerked them around with all these emails I keep getting email after email half Japanese half English I think I have 75 cents in mount gocks but they've spent way more than that to inform me about my 75 cents and it's like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football they keep taking it back we keep getting all these threats they're going to dump it on the market they're going to ruin the market and it keeps not materializing so I hope they finally give the people the money but Josh's right it would be a killer killer turn for the story if the guy decides instead of sending it to the people just to run off with it and then we have to chase that guy down and then there's there's less money for everyone Ben arc chooses story mount gocks paying back bitwise publishes the ETF address or 130 million us on sale again um Josh with the mount gocks like how much of the percentage of the funds or automasms how much the percentage of the funds you get which which which you lost if you eventually get it it's something like 15% or something like that that's low yeah yeah but then obviously it's got nothing according to the article when they were allegedly hacked they lost like 80% of their coins so to get 15% back out of that kind of loss with the and then with the bitch you know what I'm saying is I make any does that bring the percentage up at all like maybe a fraction of percent half percent or something I suppose unfortunately they didn't time it that well for the for the bitch release so there's not a lot of money there anymore yeah but the um it is quite incredible that they have a wallet with 150,000 coins on and they've still got it that's an amazing thing after 10 years of it being passed around bunch of like sketchy lawyers and and people who don't probably really know what they're doing um so you know I have high hopes that you'll be able to get your coins back and then the drinks from you Josh yeah i'm sorry so much forever I believe but I do get the emails and that's true for so many exchanges uh Daniel what do you think Mt. Gox payment return bitcoin money on the Silk Road being sold or bitwise ETF address oh man I could talk about any of these but I want to talk about the bitwise thing for a minute because I had a good laugh when I saw they posted the address and I'm like wait a minute is that like a paid the paid a script has to address like it started with a one like an old school like if I were making a paper wallet in like 2014 I'd go to bitaddress.org and I would have like moved my mouse around get some entropy and it would just spit out like a address that started in a wallet well that that would be a great way for them to make it like they put the ETF into the hackers could get into the JavaScript thing and steal all the ETFs yeah why were they using multi-save like they should be using multi-save address they should be using a modern address format and it just I couldn't understand that and it made me a little bit wary of like all of these ETF companies they really know what they're doing like who do they hire to do this and are they actually proud to publish that because I don't think that was a good idea well they said the main one of the main reasons they publish is because hackers or internet bitcoins sleuths or whatever had already figured out a lot of the other addresses perhaps just based on their size these are such huge addresses but you don't have to store all your coins in one account and if Wall Street if Wall Street's thinking at that level and I you know whoa we're in trouble proper address hygiene I mean of course we know Elizabeth Warren and everyone at Finston doesn't like address you know addresses to not be reused but that is the best way to protect your stash to make sure that people don't see your entire amount so it's free to make a new Bitcoin address guys I don't know if anyone told them that but it doesn't cost anything extra there's also no way this could have leaked with a coin base or another exchange they're actually sending and receiving Bitcoin actually playing ball these just must be huge accounts that somebody noticed out there which again doesn't make sense and doesn't fill me with lots of confidence unless the the IT guys out there like yes let's keep all the money in one account let's keep it on my computer I'm gonna go on vacation Dan Eve it's a grab bag do you want to talk about mount gocks bitwise address or the selling of the Silk Road bitcoins again yeah so very good point raised by Daniel about the address usage as well and also the fact that aren't they aren't they using one they are they using coin bases I mean that bitwise this isn't Google they're using coin bases the costly provider so I don't know if that's for the ETF as well so the fact that coin bases historically against new technologies still doesn't have the lightning network didn't have segwit for years like drag their feet because they were you know they lost the block size war and they're upset about it so yeah it is funny like you're saying to see that follow through to these Wall Street guys to the ETF it's like they also don't like technology yeah it's a strange especially as you'd think coin base would be using would be using modernized techniques but the other thing is that it's bringing this level of transparency to the banking world that like that hasn't been there before right everything's so I mean obviously we've got auditing processes but everything is so hidden and disguised in the banking process and now this is something that they have to literally show that you know there's a public ledger you've got to show your addresses so they're seeing the kind of really to the part of the side of that saying bitcoins completely anonymous right well no because anyone can go and check what bitwise is you know Bitcoin holdings are at any particular moment in time so at least it's kind of getting that message out there that bitcoins not so not so anonymous and and crazy and you know could be so easy use for nefarious practices because all these banks would be sat there going oh shit we've we've got to be transparent because people can literally see the money flowing in and out and the the amount of work that would have to go into some form of like damage control if one of those wallets got compromised you know there's there's so many eyes looking at those those wallets but then the benefit of that is as we've said the internet sleuths who are so hot on the trails of any any crypto movements we've seen a lot with and like Ethereum hacks when that's happened and all the wallet tracing so maybe we'll reach the point where the banks are now going this bitcoins not anonymous enough we need to make it more anonymous so it's pretty embarrassing that they leaked their addresses like you said Dan you can now watch those addresses and if the coins move everyone can get mad and then the banks are going to have to have a reason for what they did uh tray walls pick from the grab bag we've got mount gocks the bitwise address or the Silk Road coins sold again yeah I I started to be boring on this one I feel like bitwise um I thought that was really um interesting I thought Daniel the the Daniel that you were going to say this but the um folks sending uh I don't know why I didn't think of this but you know the 69 69 and 420 like sat to this address um such a big coin or just hilarious move uh just you know immature children sending their sats to this address was amazing from what I understand the sats since this address are just under their assets under management they're just like sure okay like people were like oh my gosh now it tips the scale and they're like I mean it's our assets under management so thanks for the free sats you know apparently that's not going to be that big of a deal I do wonder um because for my understanding bit uh well bitwise is one of the only ones well besides fidelity kind of arguably knows what they've been doing for quite a while with with Bitcoin at least but bitwise has a exclusively like crypto focus compared to the other funds so I I would imagine their chief technology officer knows hopefully a bit of what they're doing at bitwise maybe at least there's a shameer backup system or something on that on that one address I who knows I don't know there could have been I'm surprised there hasn't been already a statement out by the chief technology officer maybe there is but um I I thought that was actually a really really good move a basic move and I my hope I don't I don't want to overstate it but that really shifts like Dan you were saying kind of shifts the the window of transparency into like the financial system even outside of Bitcoin people are going to be like all right we want to see what your your assets under management are we want to see what you're saying and that Bitcoin these ETFs are kicking that off in a new way so once people are seeing oh that's how it works like now you can't fuck with that address like that's the address is on the time chain like this is legit you can't fudge that um that was super interesting to me and I'm like I it's so obvious but at the same time I'm like I did not anticipate that I thought that was very cool I also think it's really smart of bitwise to get in this on a PR aspect where the other companies have been leaked now they publish theirs uh by do a grief if that moves everyone's gonna say why is bit wise moving their money where they moving it to there's gonna be a flow chart if they spread it out to multiple accounts or whatever they try to do uh we're on to them now so that is pretty funny yeah it's like who cares if it was a PR move uh it's still good at the end of the day and I think that's so much of Wall Street being in Bitcoin is like I got who cares their motives it's good for Bitcoin right I absolutely response to people sending them little tips or something they're like yeah sure we'll take the free money like that's very classic Wall Street people think oh we're embarrassing them with our you know dirty numbers of 800 8s and you know all five and all this kind of thing you know we'll embarrass them but oh thanks for the money thanks for the tip uh but I'll go ahead and talk about the uh the plans for the United States to sell 130 million dollars worth of Silk Road coins again uh at first I think of course that they should build a Smithsonian Museum in every state with this money but it's also getting sadder and sadder as an American to see my country squander so much Bitcoin wealth while sure America could have created Bitcoin at the CIA in a laboratory and might own all the Satoshi coins if they don't they're taking a huge risk selling all these coins time and time again as we keep seeing the price go up and the US government does need money like they collect taxes still like there's not a reason to just give this back I think they should hold it or of course build 50 Smithsonian museums one in every state but moving on to the next issue and the last issue issue five Bitcoin developers have fake Satoshi on the ropes in legal fight Craig Wright has terrorized the crypto world for nearly a decade with bogus lawsuits but the tables may have turned according to the article it says that during the trial uh the Bitcoin developers are also bringing their own claims showing that Craig Wright has used forged evidence to prove that he's Satoshi and so forth after these claims Wright has sent them a letter claiming that he wants to settle Josh Shagalla what do you think about fake Satoshi allegedly on the ropes in the court? Yeah I mean I think the that copa should grow some teeth and not settle because this this is another one of Craig Wright's legal chess moves which will basically allow him to say well we're settled so I am Satoshi and I'm just letting you guys use this work and actually it opens up to further litigation later down the road as he can choose so I think there shouldn't be a settlement should just go through previous Satoshi mate sign the block do whatever you need if you are and I doubt you can so you know pay pay up and stop this affinity scam which which to my mind is and yeah it's just been so long and I just can't believe some of the courts haven't looked some of these forged documents and gone uh this is perjury like you can't just you just can't bring this sort of nonsense uh provable forgery into a court case and expect no sort of blowback um but it seems to me like that it's just sort of like oh yeah well we'll reject that as evidence and that's the end of it I hang on a minute what no like can we bring that to court that he brought this anyway um yeah it's it's strange to me that people follow this guy like I said I'm I'm agnostic like if you want to try a blockchain with gigablocks or whatever try it out I mean try it out it's a free world but don't go around fooling people into that you're you know Jesus is second coming uh or that you're Satoshi and try to uh then sue people that are making in honest living in Bitcoin or spread ridiculous conspiracies when really we're all just trying to build a cool product if you think you can build a better product then build it get on with it lie and try to deceive people that you're the original Bitcoin so buy this one uh and not that one or whatever just say look this one's better if it is then people will use it that the free market prevail you're right Josh it is a different fake Satoshi situation these days with the launch of B cash and then the launch of a BSV Bitcoin Satoshi's vision now we can say that this guy came into the community launched a product launched a second product competing against the original Bitcoin product so it is a little different than the original point when he came back and declared himself Satoshi but I'm I'm heartened by the headline it's kind of like that point in Harry Potter where they stop saying he who can't be named and they start saying Voldemort and to see fortune crypto say fake Satoshi in the headline uh we're really making progress where in the past they would have been afraid or said you know he claims to be Satoshi Ben Arck what do you think about the possible turn in the courts for fake Satoshi yeah this is from him trying to sue three and open source developers for working on Bitcoin and you have this was a crypto alliance thing what was called the crypto paint alliance thing where they they got backed by Jack Dorsey so they've got some funds now to to work with and they were on twitter just saying that's a hard pass like sorry he was Craig where I was trying to sue them for working as three of us open source developers on Bitcoin and then they sort of managed to get this UK judge to allow them to have like account acclaim against these forged documents which is a crime a real crime and you could face your all time and then if some of his lawyers are involved if they're if they're aware of that they can also get this barred and whatever else and yeah and he's fired three of his lawyers now yeah I mean law times it just keeps getting you lawful and you can't a bunch of his lawyers are in Cardiff I know them and you know they're making a ruck of money defending this guy but we're working for this guy but they don't want to you know they don't want to get in shit about it so so they're trying to do this out of court settlement which I'm sure is being pushed by the lawyers as well but yeah the the developers now thankfully in a position where they're able to say no a hard pass for you and I think this hopefully could be an hell in a coffin you're kicking the balls and we won't see any more of Craig right and that they won't settle out of court that they will take it all the way and just finally snuff this motherfucker but it's yeah it's it's a typical case of just watching a bad actor very slowly like a train wrecking slow motion just unravel themselves and you just got to sit back and wait and it's just really inconvenient for everybody I'm really glad it's why I didn't realise that it is sudden this article that Peter McCormack was able to not have to pay Craig writes court fees which from from their court case that that was thrown out as well so yeah he's just unraveling himself man and he's yeah as they do you'll end up in jail at some point eventually and then you can tell everyone in jail about his gigamix. Well much like the Trump situation it's important to know if the lawyers are in on it or whether the client lied to the lawyers so whether Craig right had these forged documents and the lawyers knew about it or if the lawyers didn't know that they were presenting for when I when I spoke to them they made very clear that they didn't think he was a Tashi so well well and that's just like if you don't believe your clients guilty you can still represent them and you can still provide an effective defense and so forth it's not doesn't have to be believed the Daniel what do you think we've got fake Satoshi on the ropes according to the article headline hey so I kind of feel like this story it's what's interesting to me about it is it ties back to so many of the other stories we talked about on the show so you've got like the the church pastor the religious extremism you know angle like selling a fake coin and getting your followers to rapidly go get behind you to you know frequently believe it and continue to pump it like there's that angle there's the angle of like with the ETFs and wall street completely insulting open source developers and all the work they've done there's also the angle of with no Cox where notice how they're not letting people cash out in B and C because no one wants it because it's not worth anything so I just feel like I'm so happy to see this story get put to bed and get put to bed before the having before the next cycle ends and we won't have to talk about CSW and any of this nonsense in the next cycle it'll all be gone ancient history we can laugh about it in a few years but man this was a hard one to get for just because it took so long I feel like this court case has been going on for like you know six years it just be like I'm tired of it I don't want to hear it anymore and I got personal good friends that are deep in that space they they they absolutely believe that I've had countless hours of arguments and it's almost impossible it's it's a literal cult I have lost friends over this like I have people who were you know my early Bitcoin friends who have gone that path you're down the B cash rate or down BSP and yeah they we can't talk anymore it's just nothing to say because they they had refused to sort of like the you know the soldiers in the jungle after the war ends and they they don't want to admit that it's over when they're still there pretending the war is happening and they're ready to fight but the worst over it's lost it also feels like a metaphor for the politics of our time but I don't want to get into that Dan Eve what do you think fake Satoshi on the ropes in court oh and it feels like only yesterday like we were saying at the end of like 2018 oh well I hope this just like these court cases just and this is getting ridiculous now and it's just really dragging out you know it's it's just such a an oh it you know it's it's it's as gone a story is like Bitcoin is bad for the environment or is used for money laundering it's you know it's concluded by anyone that really knows it and we mentioned NJ not I went to NJ in 2018 and like met some of the people there a couple of doctors and all that they didn't they didn't think that he was Satoshi and that was very clear at the the time and a lot of people have put you know come out of there since there was the guy wasn't one of the senior execs in NJ there's now completely gone you know it turned against the tide and he's saying how everyone thinks his BS in there and how crazy well I think he's actually dedicated to disproving it like not so much he doesn't just believe he's out there actively disproving yeah so I mean we need more of those people coming out of the woodwork and saying how they were hoodwinked in some some form of way a lot of them embarrassed right it's it's hard to and say that you admit that you you were you were defrauded by Craig Wright's you know words and I've met him I sat in that dinner and he's you know he's got kind of he sounds he sounds like to someone who doesn't know what they're talking about he can use his lots of good word salad he's an intelligent guy I mean like you know he's probably far more intelligent than me but like you know you kind of know that he's BSing you know if you know you know I mean and then other people you see him as a chapter and you're like they're lapping it up and you're like how do you are like logical critical thinking person how are you lapping this up right now you know it's it's just so weird but he's got charisma and stuff and that's how he's and he's been bankrupt right there's people that have dipped dipped into their pockets so hard that they have to win otherwise they they're they've you know they've corrupt inside they've lost everything by back in this guy he needs to win so let's just let's just yeah I hope it's it's one of the last of the the cases before he just doesn't get listened to anymore and finally Trey Walsh we come to you last expecting a different opinion we want you to come out here full support for Satoshi and tell us we're all wrong of course you're Craig Wright is clearly Satoshi like I don't know what you guys are talking about I mean I'm the newbie here like I got into Bitcoin in like 2021 no technical background all of this well it's been interesting for me is I feel like I've learned more about courts in various countries and you know some of our rights and protections a little more in the legal system in the US versus Europe England it's been really interesting and unfortunate to watch someone like this just take advantage of that and look for any way to terrorize someone and destroy someone so yeah it's coming back around to him it seems like you know I throw the full books at him I don't think there's any any mercy at this point this is absolutely insane going after such a pure thing on an open source software development no like this is ridiculous so like Daniel said the Daniel said I hope we can stop talking about this among many other things and just and just move forward into a brighter future with less frauds and and terrible people like this yes it has been interesting and horrifying to learn about these other country legal system for example the United Kingdom having a weaker standard for liable and thus why he sued there and then why he was able to sue developers and even a Peter McCormick a podcaster who just made a tweet where in the United States that would get tossed out in other countries they still take that seriously but we're running out of time so we're going to skip ahead to prediction or story of the week the Daniel are you ready with the prediction or a story of the week go ahead I yes I'm ready February 15th the day after Valentine's Day in New York City I predict a earth shattering events that will leave a mark on Bitcoin history and if you want to see more about that you should tray you should come to pubkey you should get on the on the now I'm trying to figure it out man so you're only 200 miles away man you got to come down here now we're we're planning an event with HRF Human Rights Foundation to talk about CBDCs and the destructive potential that they have and there will be some very interesting people there that evening and we hope to leave some some memories behind I mean it will definitely make Bitcoin history that night that sounds great and pubkey is in New York City right so in case anyone's in the area they can attend yeah yep it's open to the public all of our events are free to the public unless otherwise noted the inter-F1s this is our second in the series we plan to continue to do this throughout the year the great events you can learn a lot and yeah just down in West Village just off the West Fort Street so pop in it's open to the public that sounds great very cool Dan Eve prediction or a story of the week go ahead prediction or a story of the week what I predict that there you go it is a nice easy one I predict that the alt right that big basket of meanies the pervasive on the internet everywhere and hiding in the little crevices of society will create a Dow on on something or other and use it for nefarious purposes and probably involving some symbol that's later to be deemed a hate symbol by the ADO and we can only hope that it all comes back to the wired magazine article because that would make a really cool movie and the guy who wrote the article could sell it and get sweet money from the movie excellent uh tray walls prediction or a story of the week go ahead I'm gonna say a prediction I think this is the do a prediction for the year I think this is also going to be the year of like e cash and we talk about lightning we talk about spending I'm really bullish on on e cash cash you implementation I think folks have got some really really cool ideas with this kind of fediment along with that in terms of fee market the ordinals have kind of put this into the spotlight regardless of anyone's views on it in terms of dealing with these high fee markets dealing with what bitcoin looks like in a peer-to-peer way which is one of the most interesting things for me on bitcoin so I'm really looking forward to a bright future with with e cash and and fediments and cash shoe again it is it is custodial in a lot of ways I'm like bit clear with people but I think there's some really cool payment systems coming for for bitcoin that's really going to launch it for that's really going to help a lot of people so I'm very bullish on that excellent everyone can check out Tray's podcast the progressive bitcounter podcast do you have a webpage or a link you want to share with people Tray? Yeah so you can go to progressivebitcounter.com that's our domain we've got a substack progressivebitcounter.substack.com and then on all socials and podcasts just type in the progressive bitcounter and it'll pop up very cool thanks Tray for being on the show and keeping eye out I just might be on there pretty soon Josh Egolla prediction or a story of the week go ahead but you're still muted so we can't hear you. What postman part will become a hate symbol that's what I that's what I predict. This is phallic nose. Yes phallic nose. Sickos. Sickos. Yeah no no just my prediction is that that people will continue reading fun about all sorts of stuff and just to ignore it and keep dollar cost averaging no matter what and yeah have fun enjoy the week and finally Ben Arca prediction or a story of the week go ahead a lot really just just been grinding on the Alan bits we've got 0.12 coming out soon and that'll come with so we we have a really cool login system now which we have and also a user system so you can like manage users and that's what we've been working on predictions is just more we're just edging moving slowly closer to just world war three it's going to suck recently that was yesterday in the UK we've got some generals talking about conscription and how it wasn't the UK need to be ready for conscription if NATO goes to war with the Russians you have economic crisis then you have populist leaders then you have wars this generally what happens and 2024 it'll be the like year of kind of stuff converging technologies and stuff would be exciting but I do think we're highly likely to end up in another world war so get ready people prepared sorry you know let's be the power of bad news I didn't think I'd get to follow Ben's doom prediction but I have a nice fun and light prediction or a story of the week I've been trying to watch all the Bitcoin and related movies I watched a bit conned I watched the highest of stakes the Richard Hart Hex movie and this week I watched this is not financial advice the dogecoin millionaire movie and I was pretty interesting I got on Apple TV for like nine bucks or something but it's available out there and it basically tells the story of pro the doge a guy who invests his entire life savings and everything he's got into dogecoin makes it up to a million about three million then refuses to sell so it's a pretty amazing movie it was interesting to watch after watching the Richard Hart Hex documentary and Bitcoin and so forth and to see the the thought process was almost the same exact scene where the guy is talking to his wife and she's like I don't know anything about the money and the husband's like I just put all of our house money into dogecoin stuff like that happens so it's an interesting movie definitely check it out I'm gonna look for it in the future there's one on Amazon video that's about Dr. Rooja the crypto queen from one coin I want to check that out and I'm just totally interested in this new genre we have of Bitcoin and I suppose shit coin documentaries so I'm liking all the I'm liking all the shit coin documentaries on that flex and and things I'm enjoying them they're good well that's one of them this one I mean the point of this one at the end though they were pretty like it's interesting because the guy's won and lost the money and at the end they're kind of saying you know oh you're gonna win and lose money and it just comes back to this money thing but unfortunately whether you like it or not the dogecoin guy tweeted a couple of days ago he's back up to a million he never sold so it's pretty interesting but that's about it for this show thanks to Daniel and Tre for being our guest today thanks to everybody else thanks for giving us a thumbs up down below and pushing subscribe and until next time bye bye