The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. Good morning, Micoinus. Joshua Gala from thestandard.io. Bennark from LNBITZ. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one. Nearly all short-term Bitcoin odors are underwater, making rallies harder. The real problem is the current fragile market set up for Bitcoin, because the short-term holdlers are underwater in both price and narrative. Josh Dan Eave, what does it feel like to be underwater with price and narrative? Well, I mean, obviously the short-term has seemed to be the most likely to succumb to selling, right? They see they buy in, especially when it's in some kind of bear market, it's a bit choppy. They buy in, they see the price drop 10%, 20%. They start to free-cowl, they then sell out and then end up regretting it obviously, because if they were to hold on, as we've covered before, like four years, you just hold on four years and you're almost guaranteed based on previous data. So it's just that having that ability to have diamond hands just keep steady. The thing is with, I mean, this article mentions about how the more coins held in short-term are flowing back onto exchanges, which is interesting because they're passing the short-term that are flowing back onto exchanges as being held by personal wallets. And you'd think that people that held personal wallets of Bitcoin are less likely to be kind of newbie. They know the importance of holding your own private keys and owning your own Bitcoin, not being on an exchange. So maybe the flow of this is actually for people to try and trade more around trading, not just trying to sell off and freak out because they're selling, but maybe they think they're actually, they'd be better at buying and selling Bitcoin whilst it's quite turbulent, because these swings you can end up with more Bitcoin if you sell it and it drops on other 10% you can buy back. So maybe they're just kind of going through that adventurous stage that we all went to when you would try and day trade Bitcoin and then end up completely miserable. Or it can also be the fact that they are wanting to give their Bitcoin or use their Bitcoin for loans, right? So that people can, some other people on the exchanges can use leverage Bitcoin trading. And also I've seen, I mean, I think this is, I think it was a really email, not sure why, but there was Polo trying to tell people that you can get a Bitcoin yield now, which means, you know, where is again, we go back to this, where's the yield coming from? Like, where's that yield coming and where's the Bitcoin going? Whilst these kind of lovely gains, I think they're offering 100% APY on Bitcoin, which is something's got to be a bit odd about that. I mean, I checked the address and it seemed like it was Polo, but you've got to be very careful, right? It's very easy to get caught up when the price is fluctuating. It's easy to get caught up and just either sell or kind of think, oh, I need to make my money back by lending it out or I need to make my money back by leveraging it. When really you just got to hold tight and let Bitcoin do its thing and hedge it, you know, against inflation because that's what it's built for. But sad that they get caught out, I think. I once knew a woman who was going to double our coins by November. So we can't give that up. Josh, to go, what do you think? The noobs are moving their coins back on exchanges. The market's not really over until they get fleeked, right? Well, these sorts of statistics are always fun and a bit interesting because Bitcoin is a thing where you can kind of tell what's going on, but you're kind of guessing. That's why it's pseudonymous. It's got this abstraction with these return addresses and stuff, these change addresses. So I don't really fully buy all of these sorts of headlines. I think people are looking for news headlines that they can try to make a story. You know, it's all, I don't know. Like, sure, if people are underwater, but maybe they've, maybe they've been buying in and that's a good strategy. Like, all right, I've been buying in slowly DCAing and now I'm ready for the bull market. So I don't really pay too much attention to this stuff. If it does go lower, hey, just keep DCAing in. Dollar cost averaging for those noobs out there. Not just. And obviously at home, we're all waiting for you to sell. Once you sell, that'll get rid of all the paranoia and the market. Everything will go right back up. So waiting for you for you to sell. You're the one that turns the market. That's right. If you don't give up, it won't go back up. Ben Arck, why won't it go back up? If these people sell, is this enough? I think it's just some are dumping, man. Like people have expenditures in the summer and they're just selling a few bits and, you know, when we have a price drop like this, it's because that's small slither of. Trade is, there's none of buyers for the sellers. But Bitcoin's mostly like diamond-handed, hodler types now. Yeah, this is like slither of maybe new B coins. Maybe it's from the ordinal things. Maybe people bought Bitcoin for the ordinals and another word about ordinals and they're dumping their bits because they've got to pay for their summer holidays. But yeah, there's kind of some foot out there at the moment in Bitcoin over scaling because again, we're at the point where we've got full blocks from ordinals. And I think that's kind of worrying a few people. It's that classic, you know, sausage being made in public, like we're getting to see all the ugly parts of debates over Bitcoin, which I think within the social networks is making people a little bit. We've seen it before. People have been around here. You know, we've seen all this before and we know that Bitcoin comes out stronger for it. But for those new two Bitcoin, I can imagine them thinking, oh, crikey, you know, I'm worried about the coin stability scale and I've got some overheads because it's the summer. So I'm going to dump my coins and maybe, you know, looks like the ordinal thing isn't going to take off because there's been some slowdown in the adoption of that. So yeah, it's just, it's a blip. It's a blip. I'm very, very, very bullish on Bitcoin currently. And I think that, you know, this, this, the rest of this year is going to be very good for Bitcoin. But for now, we've got this little blip where the price has dropped a little bit just because of those, that's it. Things slither as we handed fools. I do think you're onto something there, Ben, with your logical thinking the way you tied it together, the low summer volumes, my fear over losing so much and then losing 10% more and the reality that we all know it can't go up until you panic sell. So we're still waiting for you out there. Take care of that one last panic sell. As Ben said, we need to move on quickly to issue two. Bitcoin ordinals trading is down bad, but just how bad? And it says here that Bitcoin ordinals sales volumes have dropped 97% from May to August. They have declining interest in the wider NFAs NFT space with volume dropping from Ethereum and Polygon from 22 and 60% respectively. Josh Shagalla, what do you think about Bitcoin ordinals? I mean, 97%. It's insane. You know, these are the sorts of numbers that show you that it's a hype cycle and also quite manipulated as well. They thought, NFTs. At least they went so nuts on Ethereum, hey, they have to go just as nuts on Bitcoin and everything's going to Bitcoin, but it's unfortunately not the case. Of course, there's hype. There needs to be actual use cases for NFTs. The major use cases, of course, collectibles and that's a great use case. It's interesting. But I think it's oversaturated. It's such fast food now, people just making fast food NFTs. There is so many scams in NFTs. It's unbelievable. When I say scams, I mean, just I put a tweet out there, by the way, folks, it's at J. Shagalla. Check it out in my name. It's right down the bottom there. But I put a tweet out there and I'll get like maybe one real engagement and three fake air drop posts under each freaking tweet. It's unbelievable. And so I just don't trust anything that comes out of the NFT space now. It's just too much rubbish. And I just don't know how to tell it apart. Like, at least with a crypto project, like some chic coin, you can look at the GitHub. You can look at the concept. You can say, I see what they're doing. They're doing like ticket sales and whatever it is. And you can look at the GitHub. See if there's actual people building this thing, see how many commits are happening with NFTs. It's like, I don't know. It's just a picture of some weird, I don't know, person with funny sunnies and different styles of sunnies, a thousand different styles of sunnies. I don't know. I don't get it. And of course, it's going to drop 97% because it's rubbish. It's an absolute filth. Has no, no, nothing. It's just rubbish. So I'm quite bullish about NFTs in general as a concept. For instance, in the standard.io, you can sell your smart vaults as an NFT dynamic NFT. It pulls data from the blockchain, displays it in the NFT, shows you exactly how much debt you've got and how much collateral is locked in that. And then when you sell it, the owner then now owns that NFT, but also owns your smart vault with the collateral and the debt. So you can pay off that debt and take out the collateral. Like, stuff like that, for me is interesting. Yeah, I can tell art is interesting for many people, but I think it's mainly interesting because of the pump and dumps. And I think there's a very orchestrated mafia behind all of this too. Not just one, but many all trying to basically pump fake artists up to, to laundromoney and stuff. So yeah, it's no surprise to me, but I do think there is definite use cases for NFTs. Ban Arque, you said that ordinals were filling up the blocks. How does that work? Because you have to do transactions. So quite key. Don't get me get into the technicals of how ordinals work. But it requires some blocks place and still at this point now, like more than 50% of the transactions are Bitcoin and currently ordinals. So it's still relatively well. That is actually a good statistic website. If you let me share the screen, I can show the website on the ordinal analysis. I don't know where I sit with the ordinal stuff, I really don't. But yeah, if you go to dune.com, there's some statistics over ordinals and they might fees. So you've got a couple of thousand Bitcoin in fees to inscribe these ordinals, which is a lot of money. And then if we look at some of these charts, it doesn't look like usage is that down. I mean, I think NFTs in general, like, there's less, it's the environment's weaker than it used to be. But no, it's a friend of mine, Light Rider pasties on to me. He's made ordinent, which is somewhere where people go to min ordinals. And he sent me this site here. And when I look at these metrics, it doesn't look like it's, it still looks like it's a growing ecosystem. The only ordinals which I really care about is the 600 billion collective. This is a friend of mine, Metzutashi. And he asked him how much he think Bitcoin, he thought Bitcoin should be worth. Eventually, and Zutashi said 600 billion, a Bitcoin. So these are beautiful pieces of art, which they spent a lot of time developing each one of these ordinals or one day be worth hell of a lot of money. Yeah, but the 600 billion collective, if you see 600 billion stickers about on your travels, it's because people are propagating Zutashi's prophecy that in fact, that in fact, Bitcoin, on Bitcoin, be worth 600 billion dollars. Okay. So remember that. He just said he met Zutashi, sorry. Yeah, he met Zutashi and he asked him. Dorian. No, he met Zutashi, the real Zutashi, an older guy, but he met him on his travels. And when he asked him, he had this very deep conversation about Bitcoin. And he didn't say it was Zutashi, but this guy was very well informed, very old, clearly in all school cryptographer, cryptographer. And my friend was like, this guy is totally Zutashi. And after speaking to him for about five hours, he got onto the subject of how much he thought, you know, just as fun, you know. So I do think the Bitcoin price will end up. And then Zutashi looked him dead in the eye and said very seriously, 600 billion, a Bitcoin. And then my friend was like 600 billion. And then it broke my friend's brain. So he's made this this whole movement of ordinals for 600 billion, which I really like. I love that. Is this such a ridiculous amount? It's like someone says, oh, two million a Bitcoin, ten million a Bitcoin, six million. Well, it's a five-per-flationary amount, right? Josh Getsick. Josh Getsick. What's the dollar worth when that happens? Yeah. What's the, but surely there was, there was, if you think Zutashi, then there would be other interesting things that the guy would have said, five hours of conversation. Come on, there's got to be some beans to spill. This is this was this was this was the juicy bit at the end, which you came away with. You wouldn't tell me the rest of the conversation, but anyway, five hours of conversation and all he asked him was the price. That's okay. He asked him what was important. Dan, what do you think about ordinals? They the blockchain data could be cut off. If you run a smaller node, the information will be separate. If you trade the ordinal from one account to the other, I'm not sure that you get the same ordinal or the same Zutoshi. Meanwhile, Bitcoin stamps actually published their data into the Bitcoin blockchain. Dandy likes stamps, ordinals, other NFTs on Bitcoin, liquid sidechants. Who knows? I'm really dabbled, but for, you know, this obviously this report stirred up quite a quite a bit of drama, right? Because you've got that radar you just you, I mean, their own slogan is discover track and trade everything DFI NFT and gaming. So you'd think that they, if anything, they would have a bias towards making the ordinals and NFTs and stuff look good. But this obviously, you know, this, this kicked a bit of a horny stance with people getting angry saying, well, it wasn't a 97% drop because actually the volume was 170 million down to 85 million, sort of 490 million down to 35 million. Or, you know, so those people are getting the toss either way of what stat should be used. It does seem, you know, that they've got accused of in the article of cherry picking the data a bit perhaps saying, well, you know, you're using two weeks of of August data and picking a specific two weeks for the whole of May when there was an absolute ordinal's boom. So for me, the thing that's more important is not having the organs, but would be, they're actually the number of trades, right? Because the, all these articles talk about and everyone's discussing the volume, the financial volume. But, you know, going back to the old Metcalfs law, what gives a network value is the amount of participants and users. And it doesn't actually go into detail as to the amount of trades that were done, you know, then compared to now. Because yeah, fair enough, you know, NFT's Bitcoin goes through peaks and troughs and it went from, you know, $22 down to three and then $20,000 down to three and three thousand. And then, you know, obviously has peaks and troughs 67 down to 16. And so the volumes will change very significantly. But again, as we keep on saying in Bitcoin, what happens is that all these things keep on happening, you know, five years, five years on in BlackRock and now applying for an ETF and fidelity and there's, you know, spot ETFs everywhere. You're going to spot ETF and you're going to spot ETF. Eventually it will be like that, maybe. But the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the death of ordinary and things like that. I always take the pinch of salt because unfortunately it started off with Bitcoin. There was the Bitcoin obituary and everyone saying, oh, Bitcoin's dead. Bitcoin's dead. And every now and then even like my mum will throw a major, and if prices drop like five percent, she'll be like, are you okay down? Is, is Bitcoin dead again? I'm like, oh, it's dead. Yeah, it's dead dead again. I'm dead again. Poor old Bitcoin. Oh, geez. You know, that sort of thing. But they say, you know, Ethereum is going to die. That's now what? It's seven, seven, eight years old. Right. It must be getting lost. It must be climbing up, clocking on now. Or six. I don't know. Whatever. It's a long time. Six years old, something like that. There's, you know, those coin, all that's going to die soon. You know, that's, that's still definitely not dead by the looks of it. So there's all these obituries that keep on getting handed out. But the communities are the things that keep on going. I mean, once in a while, there's been thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of shit coins. And projects that have completely failed. I think NFTs have got a, and specifically the, specifically, and the principles as well. I've got a particularly good chance of surviving and ordinals because. You know, one of the things that I liked about Bitcoin back in the day was the fact that you can timestamp something. You can immortalize it on the Bitcoin blockchain. You know, you can put data up on Google when it can be removed. put it up, even the way back when machine will remove information, but based on one of a sort of legal request comes to them, but you can't remove Bitcoin data from the Bitcoin blockchain. And that's where I think it differs a lot, obviously, from NFTs, where you don't own the NFTs not inscribed into Ethereum. You have, it's reference by it, for example. So I think ordinals have got kind of a bit of an upper hand there within mortalizing the data. But then the swinger of that is that bad data can be put on there. And then bad things happen because of bad data and chicken lick and the sky falling and BBC articles saying that all sorts of naughty things are going to be put on there. So we're going to probably see that cycle again, I think soon. But I don't think NFTs are dead. I don't think DeFi is dead or gaming, whatever. But ordinals, all of these things, they're just going for a market dip and a bit of a consolidation and then back when Bitcoin, the hype comes with the hardening, everything else is going to follow it again. And all these people are going to do the same old crazy thing. They're like, oh, I missed out on a Bitcoin. I got to go buy some water and they'll get an ordinal, they get something else or I'm going to go buy some from Shukwa. And then they miss the Bitcoin going up because they bought Shukwa. So just don't buy Shukwa. Basically, sorry. I agree, Dan. I think they've been too hard on ordinals. It's easy to kick them when they're down. And I don't think ordinals or NFTs are done yet. Not a thing that I'm sure. The actual statistic, which the article seems to settle on, when it did it. So I mean, congrats to the journalists as well. They didn't just listen to the 95%, 92% claim. They looked at their own metrics. And I think this sells around 65% drop. Which kind of makes sense when you have this crazy hype of ordinals being inscribed, and lots of people buying them. 65% is not too bad considering the ordinals being around for a couple of months now. Not too bad. Moving on, check out worldcookternetwork.com. You've got 369 videos. You could watch them for three months, 16 days, 15 hours straight. And still have more to watch. Issue three is Binance using the Bitcoin Lightning Network. No new channels for 30 days. Ben Ark is the Bitcoin Lightning Network in trouble. I mean, they got 34 Bitcoin on the node. So that's a lot of channel liquidity. I'm not sure how many people are sending Bitcoin back and forth by Lightning Network to Binance. I know with Kraken, I mean, it's much smaller about the people doing on-chain stuff. So it's just a case of the users, Binance users. If they don't need to open channels, if they're able to manage their channel liquidity, then yeah, they don't need to open any new channels. They've got a lot of Bitcoin on there. They've got some big, fat healthy channels already. So I can't really see how much of a story this is. Like, yeah, people are sending tons of money into Binance via Lightning. But there's lots of interesting ways in which you can rebalance channels without having to open new channels now. So you can loop out to on-chain. So if you have lots of Bitcoin coming in and then you loop out to on-chain, then you then balance your channels. So it's not a case of just having to open channels, constantly shouldn't have to open channels, constantly if you've got a good healthy node loss of Bitcoin on. So I'm not entirely sure on exactly how much money is for an Interplanet as via Lightning, but it could still be a considerable amount of money without having to open new channels. And I would assume as an exchange that they've looked into managing their node properly, and they put in some cool loop out features into that node to help balance the channels. Dan Eve, now Ben Arks says you're not spending enough money on coffee. What's going on with the Lightning Network? Well, first I read this and I thought, well, that's actually, it's really bad, like 30 days, that's pretty terrible. But then I did notice the date on that article was the 16th of August. So a little update actually, so I did some digging. And so five days ago, it went from six channels, so this was three days after the article. So it went from six channels to 12 channels in 24 hours. This is by the same analyst, Ambas, who we got the information from in that Ambas space in that other article, so who gave the evaluation that it's not moving, or at least their information was used to determine that it's not moving. So that was, but it went up to 46 Bitcoin. Then shortly after that, it went to 22 channels. So it like nearly over-tripled in the space of a couple of days and 64 Bitcoin. And now, according to recent analysis from Ambas Tech, they actually now the fastest growing at the fastest pace of all major exchanges. And they've just reached about half OKX's volume. And they rank number 14 out of over 16,000 nodes. So it seems like it was a bit of a slow start, but they are starting to pump the channels a bit, pump the volume. We could see, I say pump the volume, maybe that's not an accusation that they're doing it artificially, I don't know. So I'm definitely not saying that. But no, it seems like it's slowly growing, right? It was slow to start, and it does actually seem like there's some growth there, which is good. Rank 14 out of 16,000 nodes, that's not too bad. And the liquidity is growing quite fast. It's nowhere near cracker and bitfinex. But they do have from a rednut, they have a 10 Bitcoin channel with bitfinex. It's just one of their channels. So they are expanding, they've just done it really slowly. What I didn't have a chance to check into, which would have been interesting, is I don't know if Coinbase actually integrated Lightning yet, or did they just announce it and go, oh, it's not trivial though, it's going to take us a while. I think they announced it, right? But they haven't actually done it yet. I think they generally announce things, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the announcement of the announcement of the announcement sort of thing. But then they eventually do it. We call to see Binance actually published and transactions, right? We often say that Binance kind of turned their back on Bitcoin, they're a bit of a shitcoin casino. So it'd be good for them to celebrate a bit more the integration and try and please some of the Bitcoiners that they may have cheesed off in the past and kind of show that they support Bitcoin. But obviously there's the other controversy at the moment, right? The word on the street is that Binance is selling off loads of Bitcoin in order to hold the price floor of $212 or $200 whatever it is. So CZ is under a lot of fire at the moment and a lot of speculation as to why the BNB price is actually holding up pretty well compared to some of the other cryptos and it's because he's basically selling off of everyone's apparently, he's apparently selling off everyone's Bitcoin for BNB in order to kind of float the price. So I do something good for the Bitcoin community and start shouting about how much your digging into lightning and maybe even publish some volumes on it, right? Maybe not the inflows, but just something like, well, that would be cool, right? Say, hey, so many X number of people deposited lightning on Binance so fine, get involved in use lightning and all that, Shenanigans. Josh Shagalla, as Yogi Berra said, the lightning network is too crowded. No one goes there anymore. Should we switch to driveshafts? Would that be better? It would probably be better. No, no, lightning network is super healthy. We've got a 4,675 Bitcoin locked up on the lightning networks and we're 20 on million dollars or thereabouts and it's one of these things that had so much, it's a technology that had so much fired around it in the beginning because of the block wars that it just took, it's just taking time for people to realize how brilliant it is. And that's very unfortunate, but maybe it's fortunate. Maybe it's a way for it to scale slowly and people to find better ways of doing things. And in this time that it's taken a grow, like Ben said, now there's all these new ways of balancing channels and all of this stuff is obfricated away so that it's easier for the end user rather than something really complex. We ran the biggest node there for a while when we were the first exchange to launch the lightning network and it was super difficult, like it was the most difficult because there was just no infrastructure. Now through all this amazing work that Ben arcs doing through LMBITs and a lot of other teams around the world, it's just become so easy to spin up a node and accept lightning payments. And it's one of these technologies that you really just need to try. And I've done this before with people that have just pooped it like crazy. And they're so stuck in there like, ugh, derangement syndrome about the lightning network that when you actually use it, you say, oh, here I'll send you one. And they get coins instantly and you say, you know how many confirmations that's got 128 confirmations already and you just got it. And it sort of sets off this aha moment for them. And that's backed up by them being on Ethereum and all these other who have totally not fought about L2s. They're like, oh great, we need L2s, we need more L2s. And they, you know, Ethereum, they just, they love their L2s and no one fights about it. And they all work together and it's great. So when people see that and then they get that aha moment and how quick a transaction is, plus it's got thousands of confirmations, blocks deep of security, it sort of sets off that aha moment and that aha moment takes time. And I think what we're waiting now is the perfect storm for lightning network which is Bitcoin started to take off in price. Getting to the crypto summer, as we get into crypto spring, I know that that's not feeling like that at the moment as we're having this little bit of a downturn, but as we head into crypto spring, people will start jumping on to the lightning network, especially if blocks started to fill up, they just want to make one transaction and then have plenty of cheaper transactions. And yeah, I'm really bullish on the lightning network. It's just getting better and better by the day. And it's something you need to experience to understand. Ben, what about drive chains? Does drive chains have better technology? It's not so much that it's more that, like if you want Bitcoin to scale, lightning is great. I mean, obviously payment channels is the solution for micro transactions and sending basically an infinite amount of transactions through the payments network. There was all these, like everything, like it's slow to develop if there's not an assessed to there. And as it was, like ideas, like channel factories and being able to easily and cheaply spin up channels, wasn't really an issue when Bitcoin blocks weren't that full, but now they are full from these ordinals, then there's more emphasis on using lightning, which I think is why a lot of these exchanges have started adopting lightning. And I imagine the Binance is one when they first rolled it out like with Kraken. It was kind of fiddly to do a lightning transaction. You had to like verify via email. You had to give them a lightning address and verify via email that you wanted to send when he's the lightning address. And it's kind of clunky. But clearly, you know, Binance is valuable and if they're going to commit that many Bitcoins to the hot wallet, which the lightning node is. When it comes to drive chains, like, and the Bit 300, I think it is really important for, if you want the whole world running on Bitcoin, which I personally do, and I want people to do whatever they want on Bitcoin and for the whole world's economic infrastructure to be balanced up a Bitcoin and have the same security properties of Bitcoin to be secure by the miners. And it's also, you know, have that 21 million cap, then, you're going to need something like Bit 300, you're going to need drive chains. And if you want to scale lightning, so that the lightning's biggest issue is that on Bitcoin, only so many people can open channels because Bitcoin has a on-chain, you know, it has a capacity limit. And currently there are things like channel factories on there. And in order to make that reality, it might require hard fork, which you know, really wants. So maybe I was tweeting about this early today, actually, maybe with Bit 300, you could have like, that the ultimate underlayer, beneath the layer, for something like lightning, which has that stuff kind of built in, specifically, so people can easily sell payment channels, because payment channels, that's the answer, right? And then that could just be powered and be secured by Bitcoin, which is what the drive chain solution offers. So it's not a case of like, you can't use lightning, now we need drive chains, it's a case of, the drive chains would probably be a very good way to make lightning available. So the whole world likes a more like billion people, wherever it is now, so the population's plan, I don't know, nine billion, where are we at? Then maybe we put an also for all the other funky things they want to do on these crypto current. As you can see, Ben violated the rules, no good news this week, Ben provided good news. Moving on to the next issue issue for Bitcoin and Ethereum trade below the maximum pain levels ahead of the $2.7 billion options settlement. Dan Eave, we're experiencing maximum pain according to this article, what do you think about the markets lately? Oh, we haven't even seen pain yet. Jesus, it only went from like 67 and 16, and we're obviously like 26 or something now. So, you know, pain levels are 16 and lower, you know, pain, those are certainly the pain levels for for, for, for, for sailor, but you know, it's the public figures like sailor and, and El Salvador, which we said last week, they managed to pay off their loan and their laughing right now, which is, which is great. But yeah, pain levels, you know, 26 came in. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the craziness of the idea, right? The, the, the 26,000 dollar Bitcoin is like a, is like maximum pain level. Isn't that just insane, you know, you think how, how far has come? Um, and, and, you know, the years ago, people prophesized that, you know, they're like, oh, the Bitcoin swung, you know, 20, 20 dollars in one day, wow, that's like 60% or whatever. And then, and, and then like, you know, some crazy people were saying one day, it was swing a thousand dollars or two in, in one day. And, you know, there's, it's going to keep on going like that. The scales will keep on getting bigger. Um, so, um, whilst it's the maximum pain level, um, now, um, there's obviously a lot of people that are, are kind of doing okay out of it from, uh, from, from the analysis about, about Deribis, um, settlement, so option seven. So, um, you know, it's pain levels for some people. One man's, one man's track, one person's trashes and other persons treasure one, one person's losses and other persons gain and all that, you know, yin yang, ting tong, ping pong, sing song, all of those are just different opposing things. Uh, but anyway, yeah, you know, 2026 case, still just crazy, just thinking about it. So, if you are going to get it in now, as we said earlier, just like just try and hold, don't get, don't succumb to the craziness of the price fluctuations and sell out now, um, and just don't ever be in a position. And the reason you shouldn't ever, one good thing that, you know, people always say is, you know, don't put in more than you can afford to lose. And that rings true for, for in two ways. And number one, if you lose it all, then you're going to be devastated, right? Because it's more than you could afford to lose. Uh, but also if it's, uh, not more than a four, you could afford to lose and, uh, and you don't need to sell it during a low period, then you won't be kicking yourself when it goes absolutely screaming towards and, and beyond 100K and all these other crazy prices, $600 billion, $600 billion or $600 billion, $600 billion. So yeah, keep calm, keep cool, uh, and keep DCAing. Josh, Shagalla, we're in maximum pain. They say the price of Bitcoin and Ethereum went down about 10% and they're calling this a crashed, 10%. Uh, Josh is muted. It's a, it's a crash on the legacy markets for sure, but it's not in this space. And it's one of these, uh, you know, these rights of passage in Bitcoin. You need to, uh, actually experience a 10% drop in a day to be like, all right. Now I'm a true Bitcoin, uh, huddle, huddle, huddle. Yeah. I do think you're right, Josh. You're not a true Bitcoin until you've experienced a 10% drop. Ben, are you back with us? Ben's still working on his computer, but we do have word that you guys will now predict against the online magic April, the new source of all truth, Dan evil, the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week. Well, I'm hoping to increase my, my losing streak, uh, of being wrong. So I'm going to continue saying, I'm going to say it, yeah, I'm going to continue saying down because then it will go up and I'll be wrong. But still happy. Josh, I think it did go up slightly from last week, Dan. We were both positive or negative on that. I forget Josh higher or lower. It's, uh, if all my triangles and circles are correct, it's going lower. And now just ask the real source of all truth. Will the Bitcoin price be higher? We asked the magic eight ball and it says it is certain. It is certain. The ball is optimistic. Wow. To issue five, I think it is Bitcoin happening to take the Bitcoin price to a hundred and forty eight K, budget, live 2025 says Pantera capital. Dan, even what do you think about Pantera's incredible prediction that the Bitcoin price, which now everyone knows is horrible. Yet the magic eight ball predicts that it's certain to go up is now being said to be perhaps a hundred and forty eight thousand dollars by July 2025. Well, I think all predictions pale in insignificant compared to this new six hundred billion dollar, you know, the theory, which, uh, which obviously would be absolutely lovely, right? Six hundred billion dollars. So it would be absolutely disastrous. Well, if that was the case, the whole world monetary system is screwed and we're all drinking muddy water. Yeah. Now, because you're right, because because really, we have the cool stickers, right? It's a great app. Cool stickers. Yeah. The sad thing you're right, those because it's, you know, that would, if it's six hundred billion dollars, that's going to be because of high preinflation. Yeah, that'd be the point where an apple is a million dollars. You know, what apple to one billion dollars, you know, so yeah, that's going to be a sad sad, sad, sad, you know, state. But well, I don't know, maybe, maybe I don't know. I mean, hundred and forty eight thousand, it just, I used to get excited by something like that. But, uh, but now, but now, the six hundred billion dollars is just, it's all I can think about. I've got 148 K isn't too bad. Kind of rolls off the old tongue, you know, has nice round number of feeling to it. I love it. I love it. I love how they just pull these numbers out of their, out of their whizled. And, uh, and, and just coin telegraph just runs with it. And you know, the funny thing is they take the number from a company that's highly invested in Bitcoin going up, you know, that's their whole stick is investing in Bitcoin companies. So like, can you, can you take a, like a number from maybe a partisan, someone, someone that's, you know, just looking at data and not, we have to like ask the people that are heavily invested in Bitcoin to show their price prediction. I was just such dumb. Yeah. And are the price prediction comes from there inside our blockchain letter that the executives at the crypto asset manager double down on their bullish BTC forecasts. I mean, as we saw before, that's not so particularly that bullish, is it? But, uh, I, I, I think, I think is, are we still not aiming for 240 K, I thought that's where we're aiming for, um, for, for the next 12 months. So 100 K isn't the laser eyes 100 K? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. But I think, I think like Bitcoin is 10x before and there's a lot of traction on Bitcoin. And there's a lot of interest in Bitcoin. We've got a new, a lot of new talent with the Nostar stuff and all these apps and, um, people building services around that. And, uh, yeah, no, I, I, I'm extremely bullish on Bitcoin. And I think that 240 K is perfectly plausible. It's done similar, um, increases in price before in the past and, uh, 140 K is a little bit short really. Um, we do have an update from the article and remember these are investment professionals here at Pantera. The next having is happening is expect to occur on April 20th, 2024. Since most Bitcoin's are now in circulation, each having will be almost exactly half a big as reduction in new supply. If history were to repeat itself, the next having would see Bitcoin rising to 35 K before the happening and 148,000 dollars after. But just, just, that's pretty good to me. Just put this into context, though, this 100, this pithy 148,000 is, uh, is a mere 0.00246% of 600 billion. Exactly. That's what we're in before, guys. Oh, yeah. 600 billion. This is actually, it really is kind of a nothing prediction, uh, when you put it into the category of the 600 billion. Yes, a week prediction. Week prediction moving on. Uh, we have, we're reversing the bad news trend, obviously, uh, with that article. Uh, we have one more. Let's see, zoom says it's going to crash instead. Let's see. Can we have, uh, one more screen share zoom? All right. Here we go. Lawyer, SPF is living on bread, water and peanut butter. Uh, Sam Bankman, freed is having trouble getting his anti-depressants in prison. He's also not been supplied with vegan food. So he's living on bread, water and peanut butter. Dan Eve, what do you think about our friend, Sam Bankman, freed and his horrible news situation in prison? Well, I mean, surely, surely there's more stuff that could be considered vegan in prison than bread, water and peanut butter. Surely I have like potatoes, maybe a carer every now and then, a bit of cauliflower, a bit of carrot. Potatoes are not vegan. Uh, are they? Everyone knows that. Oh, yeah. I see. But yeah, I think he's going for the pity thing now, right? Soon enough, it's going to be like a hunger strike or something crazy like that. They'll be like, you know, I just think that he seemed like a very manipulative guy and with all the things that are coming out about the diary and faking the Google docs thing and, and obviously witness tampering. He's not this, he's not the, I don't know, maybe, maybe the effective altruism was, was a bit of a guys that did read something like a thread from someone who kind of said that they were a bright, I, you know, guy from, uh, from a, what university was, you know, what a US university went to work for him and, you know, told a story about how he was, he met him when he was sat playing League of Legends in the middle of the trading floor at Alameda and, and that, you know, he seemed like he genuinely was into effective altruism and wanted to change the world and make medicine free in the court cancer, all these crazy things. And, um, but you don't seem like that sort of guy seems like a bit of a sad. And, uh, and now it's going, it seems like he's going down the kind of pity route, right? It does seem, you know, he's, he's kind of like, oh, feel sorry for me. I'm a vegan. I can't get any nutrition in here. There's just bread, water and peanut bar, which actually doesn't actually sound too, too bad. I mean, I like all three of those. So it could be worse, right? It could be, could it be broth? Imagine, you know, it could have been broth, but is it broth? I believe it's a survival at least he has the water. If he just had the bread and the peanut butter, it'd turn a nightmare. Exactly. We also, we also have a report that his trans dermal patch used for treating depression. His supply is limited and dwindling. He also doesn't have access to the internet or a computer. Josh, you got a sandbagged, man, free is describing the print, the conditions inside of prison. And it's not pretty. I remember once seeing this, seeing this news piece, this is years ago, it was like, this living cost of gone up so much that this guy is resorting to eating power dog food for food. And I'm thinking to myself, hang on a minute, power dog food is like, you know, I don't know, like two bucks, 80 a can or something. And a carrot is like 10 cents. I work. This guy's full of shit. You know, because you can get much more nutrition just from others. But anyway, yeah, look, it's the guy look, if you're suffering from depression, try, you know, eating some meat, maybe, you know, you need some, like, sorry, I was a vegan very, very long time. I was vegetarian. I've tried it all. And, and you know, sometimes you just need some meat. You know, I mean, if you stuck depression is horrible. It's a horrible debilitating disease. And if you're suffering from it, you need to try other things, you know, because you're going through hell. And prisons hellish enough, I can't imagine. But maybe, maybe think of all this people that suffered from you taking all their money, the people that have, you know, killed themselves as well, because they've lost everything that they've worked so hard for Sam, you know. Yeah, maybe you shouldn't have been so cala, what's the word Cavalier with with everyone's money. Josh, Josh, Josh, the goal is suggesting the carnivore diet for SPF. Also, it is a great contrast, Josh. The period of now when SPF is actually in jail awaiting trial, still innocent before proven guilty, versus that other period where he kept doing all those insane interviews. And it just never made any sense. And he kept incriminating himself and he kept saying, how could his lawyers be allowing him to do this? And it seems like that, that lack of reality fog that he had the, the last glimpse of effective altruism or whatever. He was trying to push at the end that the part where Sam gets away, Scott free. It doesn't seem like that's happening anymore. And I don't know what he's going to do. He was really delusional. You know, he really, he grew up so sheltered to not understand reality that the people actually go to prison, you know, that that, that doesn't just happen to, to hardcore murderers or something or, you know, people in comic books. Well, that's very much like the, the dropout movie about the woman that worked at Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes. And she had all these intentions. She wanted to be Steve Jobs, but she didn't want to actually make anything. It wasn't important that she succeed by making things. It was that she succeeded by selling things. And in the same way, Sam had this business that seems completely made up. The fact that they were just taking in deposits and just giving out deposits and they didn't have a track of it. It's just a fantasy way. Then what do you think about this topic? Or put her in bread or people as well, like he's incredibly privileged, which is why he's now like, how am I in jail? I'm privileged. My, you know, my family's part of the, the click. I should be in prison. I kind of feel like it's okay for him to be a bit depressed. You know, like he did rip off everyone's money and he has like, George said he's made a lot of people very depressed. So if, if he has to sit and have a dark moment in his cell and actually truly reflect upon what he's done. So be it, man, like, you know, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime, as they say. And when it comes to prison and US prisons are somewhere you, you particularly want to be, I don't think. But, but like Dan said, like, peanut butter and toast, that's okay. I mean, he wasn't, he's not a particularly healthy looking dude anyway. So I can't imagine his diet was amazing before he went to prison. But now he's just, he's just got a face up to the reality of the situation. He has put himself in by ripping off all those poor vulnerable people. And he should be a little bit depressed. That's fine. It does seem been like he'll have increased access to sunshine, perhaps, and work out machines, other things that he might previously not have access to. And it's very tough to tell the level of trolling on the internet is incredibly high. But it isn't, it is possible that his mother could write a research paper about this. She was a scholar of effective altruism. She was trying to spread the word, perhaps, through her son. And now again, we see you can't put the cart before the horse, right? It's important to have a real business. We are already talking in that very bizarre Snapchat video where Sam still drives a Honda Civic and he has fuzzy hair and a t-shirt and he's getting ready to donate billions of dollars. It doesn't seem like his business was even ready to handle millions of dollars or thousands of dollars. This idea that, you know, just as Mitch Edwards said, like, okay, you're good at comedy. Now can you act? Like he should have just focused on running a business, not focused on being an effective altruism philosopher or whatever you were doing there. A lot of these people, like honestly, it's like reverse racism. It's still racism. You know, trying to try to. And this is what they sort of philosophy is people think. Effective altruism isn't stealing billions of dollars off of people and throwing it down the toilet. Like what? Are you doing the exact opposite? He's just a scumbag. Is that privilege mindset that they know what best to do with the money? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course. I'll take this money away from these people. I'll do something better with it than they could possibly do. I think that's the kind of attitude right? That part of the. Well, according to the interview with coffeezilla allegedly, they were co-mingling funds from the beginning. They just didn't have a very good like basic business plan to even be worrying about things like effective altruism or giving five million dollars to the father that the father is now using for the defense of the sun. Well, at least they did that part. So we'll see. We'll see how the trial turns out. But for now, S.B.F has been denied his fancy vegan food. We're running out of time. Dan, Eve, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. You're always first. He's never ready as well. OK. OK. 600 billion. I think everything's blown out of the water with this 600 billion. I can't get it out of my head. But the moment it's like it's a worm. It gets in there 600. What the fuck? So, so I'm just, but I'm going to sacrifice my prediction or the story of the week. So I just want to know a little bit more about this apparent Satoshi dude. So like what? You know, any it is. What have so many questions? How how does how was he so certain? You know, it was, it was him. It happened in rega. He's someone I work with and I've worked with on some of the projects as well. And a very legit developer who met someone who he's blown away with. And he came up with a 600 billion thing and my friend was like 600 billion with the fuck, which is why it's, you know, the 600 billion collective is 600 dot WTF. But it's just a, it's a brain worm. It like you say it blows all of the predictions out the water and now every prediction just seems ridiculous. And yeah, 600 billion. What the fuck? Well, I would, I'm going to put my neck on the line and I predicted that big one will be 600 billion to in seven million years maybe. I don't know, hopefully not that one. We definitely got to save up that will be quite something 600 billion dollars. The Josh a gole of prediction or a story of the week go ahead. Yeah, we're finally launching the standard on Monday, which is very, very exciting. You'll be able to lock up wrapped Bitcoin. You'll be able to lock up the room. And and tax gold. And you'll be able to borrow at your OS. We've had to change it from S euro to your OS because synthetics already had S euro. So, but yeah, very, very exciting. It's been a long road and come and check it out. We also have international defi day coming up and there's going to be a 10 hour live stream showcasing some of the best projects. We'll have Benark there also showing off some lightning network for the L2 on Bitcoin. We've got polygon showing L2 on Ethereum. I'm trying to, you know, unite the crew here. Yeah, everything again, the real enemy is the central banks and that that the world technologist trying to find cool cool technology. So check it out at youtube.com slash all of that stuff. I've put it in the live chat. I'll put it in one more time by itself. So you can just copy paste it and hit notify it. That's on the eighth of September. Yeah, it'll be really, really cool. Very cool Josh. Congratulations. Benark prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. And we get a demo video of the standard IO on WCN on early next week. Yeah, cool. I'd love to do that. Yeah. There was a guy on Bitcoin reddit. I think it's the yesterday and he was he was who he accumulated like seven Bitcoin over many years, over like five years and he was good that he was going to he was going to sell some because he wanted to buy with his wife by his you know his dream home, no going to upscalar home and he's going to have to sell like two thirds of his stash and he was like, you know, is this. Am I betraying Bitcoin, you know, have like have my hands become weak buying a real world thing. Yeah, and when I saw the article, I thought the standard IO and I was like this dude doesn't have this another option out there. He doesn't have to sell them bits. That's it. You know, that's really the dream that you hold your private keys. You don't need to trust the third tidy. Yeah, the private keys are in a theory of private key. So that that is true. There's a little bit of, but it's not as bad as having to trust block fire or something like that, right. And may I just well, that's what our drive chain conversation earlier that if Bips 300 gets in that Bips 3 drive chains and Bips 300, they currently have the most up to date Ethereum forked onto a drive chain on their test implementation using Bitcoin, and you can do all these funky cool things on Bitcoin. So and for you, someone who's created this amazing product in hopefully not too short a time it could be something which could just be native on Bitcoin. Absolutely as soon as it's available on something that's, you know, good enough will deploy it. The thing is that we have a few things, you know, we need to check like our smart contracts talks of the chain link or equals which check price feeds and stuff because there needs to be liquidation events and all these sorts of things. But you know, this technology will go to Bitcoin it will and I just can't wait for that time to happen. It'll be a Bitcoin side chain or drive chain or you know these sorts of things, but it'll happen. And I just can't wait for that day, but until then we're on L2 Ethereum and we'll move forward. But yeah, screw that 0% interest loans from now on in so sec. So the my story of the week would be the Rico honey badgers coming up. I'm not sure how many of us are going to be there going to be doing to talk and. My friend who might satoshi with a 600 billion collective and 600 billion prediction price prediction happened in rega. So if you perhaps with a bit of luck, stashy might show up again, crisis with his presence. I'll be doing a talk and the title of the talk is fuck Uncle Jim scaling Bitcoin. That's the that's the price that the title of the talk so very much lucky forward to that and I feel uniquely qualified as you know, I'm bits is obviously a. Something you can run as an uncle Jim model, but I do kind of feel that like lightning is amazing. And there's been a hell of a lot of development in it, but people have almost like given up the fundamentals of lightning like if you look at the node implementations like core lightning gal and D and you look at the open PRs, which there's a whole bunch of really cool PRs. And the repos aren't even really being managed as well as they could be because there's just not enough energy and focus. And even managing a node like what your options like ride the lightning, you know, is is is kind of a tricky piece of software. It's quite a big piece of software. There's not that many options for managing a node as well. So I'm going to be exploring where lightning is now. It's great. And it's the it's the solution, but we need to have a lot more energy being poured into actually developing lightning. I was a base layer because now people and this this is partly with the problem lots of people like myself would be go excited about lightning we're building on top of lightning without enough energy and focus actually on the lightning fundamentals themselves. So yeah, if I can go Jim. Well, that's great, but it's getting late. So shout out to Ryan for hosting me in Berlin. I'm going to see all my friends here, but I don't know where everybody is seems like everybody left town. I'll have to see how that goes. We'll see I call you. You're not there. Everybody gives a thumbs up down below. Thanks for sticking us on these Thursday night shows as I continue to travel and be busy on Fridays. So thanks so much for joining us. Be sure to subscribe down below and until next time.