The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoins, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. Howdy, Holbycord! I'm in Raffi from BitTopia. Hey guys. John Light from Sovereign. Hey folks. Ben Arck from LNBits. Mustard Oil. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one, Bitcoin moves towards $28,000, as the world's largest crypto extends losses. Everyone thought that the price of Bitcoin and altcoins were just going to go up forever. But everyone was wrong. They went down recently and everyone is freaking out. Bitcoin's dropped to $28,000 and it's dropped nearly 8% after rising to 30,400 a few days ago. They're saying that the Federal Open Market Committee has increased its benchmark federal funds rate by 475 points since March. Trouble for Bitcoin. Dan Eave, why is the price of Bitcoin down? Certainly has nothing to do with the Magic 8 ball. It's down because as the best country indicating the world, I said it would go up last week. I said it wouldn't set it up. It's quite me on that ever unless you're going against me and then it's good to bet against me. But yeah, there's quite a bit of news. Wasn't there like BitTrek's, the DSEC, BitTrek's suit. I'm not sure that was the spook general. Bitcoin is so much, but obviously the rest of the, when the rest of the markets go, it kind of produces this bit of a cascade, right? And there was Gensler being grilled and he was being asked about Ethereum, whether it's the security, and that was quite funny. It was just like, well, you see, you just couldn't answer it whether Ethereum was a security. That kind of spook people. But again, would Bitcoin really follow Ethereum? That doesn't usually happen. Usually it's Ethereum following Bitcoin and everything else following Bitcoin. It's just general price consolidation, right? Because we had a bit of a pump. It was not too long ago. It was 20,000, just touching under 20,000. The weekend of when USDC depegged. So it's had quite a run since then. That's only just over a month or so ago. So yeah, maybe it's this kind of consolidation movement. I don't know. I'm not good with triangles and stuff like that, like these chart experts. I tried to ask chat GPT. It doesn't comment on the price. I tried to convince it otherwise, and it still says no. But if you're having problems getting it to write your code, you just need to ask it 10 times, and it continuously says no. It's a language model. And then if you ask it nice enough, and enough times, it eventually writes the code for you. So that's one tip for chat GPT. Yeah, unfortunately, I don't know. It goes up, it goes down, it goes sideways, but eventually it's moon. Chat GPT setting a horrible example for men in our society. A men wise, the price gone down. Is it the interest rates, the scary securities talk, or something else? So it's two ways to approach this. One is no one knows. The second way is, I think it's healthy. I think it's healthy for this to occur. You can't just stop prices going up and up and up. That's when it gets scary. And this is when I would pull my money out if you didn't drop for a bit. But prices no reflection of its actual function. It never has been most Bitcoin purchases actually occur over the count. That's something people forget about. There was what's the guy from Fox News called top? Forget his name. Talk, talk, talk, talk. Yeah, talk, he said. He had this theory where he's like, oh, prices, price of Bitcoin is going up because these malware and hacks are happening around the world and governments need to go on exchanges and buy Bitcoin to pay these hackers. And I'm like, governments don't go on like Coinbase.com and buy Bitcoin. It's like, hey, wait, I'm just open up a Coinbase account for the US government. I'm like, all it is happened over the counter. It's a stupid thing to think. It's going up because government suddenly needed for malware and hacks. So that's my two satoshi for that comment. It's always difficult to figure out the price. The media is always just pulling out whatever event happened. Oh, Joan Rivers passed away. That's why the price of Bitcoin is down. John Light is Joan Rivers responsible for the crash in Bitcoin. Man, what a time to be alive when 30,000 to 28,000 is a crash. No, probably not. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that there are more sellers and buyers. Other than that, I don't know. I don't look at short-term price movements. I'm most focused on Bitcoin adoption, the growth in merchant adoption and adoption by long-term true Bitcoin believers. All of the indicators that I'm looking at are up and to the right in that regard. These short-term price fluctuations, I think they're just day traders and speculators getting washed in and out of the market. It's just noise. It doesn't really have any real meaningful effect on Bitcoin long-term or certainly not on Bitcoin's fundamentals and the real value that it brings to society. That's my two sets on that. I think it was on a recent episode of Mad Bittcoins. He said, if the price of Bitcoin went down 2,000 dollars back in my day, that would be it for the price of Bitcoin. It'd be over. Ben, Arck, what do you think about this 2,000 swing in Bitcoin? Yeah, I agree. It's just day traders. It's exactly why he shouldn't day trade because even if the general value of Bitcoin is going up which is significant, I think we all know that. If you do day trades, you can just get wiped out by some random hiccup in the market because there's more, like say more, sellers than buyers and then it pushes the price down. Particularly in Bitcoin, it's such a thin layer of actual people buying selling Bitcoin. We should move the price like the little ripples and then the general current, obviously moves in the other direction. But Bitcoin is such a strong place to the moment. All the North Star integration, people using Bitcoin on North Star, there's going to be a slight lag that those people will be using Xaps and they'll get a little bit of lightning that will be zapping each other on some of these North Star social platforms. I know most of them are Bitcoiners, but it's also pulling in a lot of non-Bittcoins. And then after that lag, they'll be like, well, I'll probably should buy myself some of this Bitcoin. It's pretty cool, like in these micro transactions to support tweets or whatever. So I think the North Star impacts can be huge for Bitcoin. It could easily get it to rally up to a couple hundred grand of Bitcoin, let alone all the other reasons we should be all using Bitcoin. So yeah, it's exactly why people shouldn't day trade. It's one of those little hiccups in the market which is really meaningless, unpredictable, and sometimes it goes just by some Bitcoin hold it for a decent period of time. And now showing that you have two powers over the market, I'll ask you guys to predict against the Bitcoin predictor ball, the greatest source of all truth in Bitcoin history. Dan Eave, will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week? A man, Rafi, higher or lower? I'm going to get up. They say never short. So I'm going to get long. John Lyd, it's been all positivity so far, higher or lower? One BTC is one BTC. Uh oh, a push, the worst answer. Ben, arc, higher or lower? Uh, lower, but I, Jack, just for tiny period of time in the back up, I mean, yeah, whatever the money, yeah, lower, lower. Because someone has to be contrarian, right? I can't all be positive. Here we go. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Very doubtful, very doubtful. The ball is pessimistic. So there you go. The ball has spoken. Moving on to issue two, US crypto exchange coin base secures Bermuda license. We thought that Brian Armstrong was just threatening the United States saying that coin base might leave, but now it's a real possibility with coin base setting up a coin base international exchange that sounds like it might finally be able to compete with the likes of finance and others who've been running stateless crypto exchanges, even offering zero fees. A man or a few, what do you think about Brian Armstrong and Coinbase's decision to perhaps flee the United States because of a lack of regulatory clarity? So my view on coin base is it's got a huge link to the intelligence agency. And I'm not a fan of any centralized exchange. So as far as I care, I care very little about centralized exchanges. So as far as like they're moving to Bermuda, I think they should do that anyway, regardless of what's going on. Being able to compete with finance, maybe, finance controls the market quite strongly. And I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting these news about centralized exchanges and their ties. I don't know. I'm a fan of decentralized protocols. So I don't care. Is there real risk? Of course, if Coinbase was a CIA operation, they'd be losing power by pushing them out of the competent country and weakening them. John Light, what do you think about Coinbase and the possibilities of Bermuda? Kind of reminds me of the Bahamas and someone else down there. Yeah. Yeah. When Coinbase polycule. But yeah, like I don't have a very strong opinion about this either. I work on a project that builds a decentralized exchange on the Rousseauk Bitcoin side chain. I'm an advocate of non-custodial or self-custodial decentralized exchanges. To watch the centralized exchanges kind of wriggle in squirm under regulatory pressure. I mean, it's, I think, to be expected. I think everybody expected that at some point there would be some sort of challenge from regulators to Bitcoin exchanges or crypto exchanges broadly speaking, especially these exchanges that are trading so many different tokens of dubious quality. I think they're just kind of setting themselves up for that kind of face-off. My understanding is that this particular showdown with the regulators was driven by Coinbase's desire to open a derivatives exchange. And that, of course, is pretty heavily regulated activity. And so they were bound to face some sort of challenges. I do think it is kind of strange that they haven't been able to do it in the US. There are other derivatives exchanges in the US. It's just the question is, why can't Coinbase specifically do it? I think that's an interesting question. But overall, I think that this is just more positive news for decentralized and truly censorship-resistant exchanges that don't have to worry about this kind of pressure because they can't get shut down. It's just running autonomously on-chain or in peer-to-peer protocols and it just can't get shut down. So that's the kind of protocols that I'm focused on that I'm most interested in. I wish the entrepreneurs in the space the best of luck. But I don't know if that route is really going to be the best and most sustainable route long-term. So I would advocate for people to look at decentralized exchanges and truly decentralized and censorship-resistant protocols instead of trusted centralized custodial intermediaries. We've talked before on this show about the idea of good times for Bitcoin and bad times for Bitcoin. There was this great period where you could transfer money from your bank account to your Coinbase account. It was really easy and it's also really easy to look at and say, that will all go away. If they decide to get rid of Bitcoin, all that will be left, like John Seng, is these decentralized option meeting people in person. We've seen local Bitcoins go down, Paxful recently went down. They are trying to cut off a lot of those things that were made and what will likely happen is a more decentralized version of those things will be launched if we really need them, which we might. Ben Arquets, interesting to see Silicon Valley's star coinbase start to fade here. They were doing everything the right way. They were going to be the regulations, guys, the ones that got in there early with them and not only in shape the regulations. Now it seems like he's going on the run, he's putting on the pirate mask as we talked about. What do you think, Ben? They've probably just given up. Maybe there is Bitcoin bias in the US and that's why they haven't been able to become regulated in the way they want. So he's just whatever, we're losing money, fighting this unwinnable battle with the US government. There's jurisdictions which are far more like regulatory, friendly, which is what we always say. We've set a bunch of times on this group that the countries which are for a need to Bitcoin or they have clearer rules and they're probably not going to shift those rules as flippantly as someone like the US might. They're going to be the ones who capitalise on this huge industry which is growing, which is, I don't know how much of their operations have been moving to be new to us, but if you would just go with a benefit from it. I'll just be a pattern, we'll just continue to see and I'm sure Coinbase, other companies will follow suit from Coinbase, I think they'll have Coinbase going on might as well go as well and then I'll leave as well. So it's a shame that the US is going to leak that tarlin in the industry, but yeah, absolutely, we should all be concentrating on the real juicy bit which is the decentralized exchanges. You said you were working on a decentralized exchange on root stock on the Bitcoin side chain. I just wanted to ask, you could you tell me a little bit about the project? Sounds really cool. Sure. So it's called sovereign and we have an automated market maker, smart contract that's been deployed to root stock. So users can deposit liquidity and then other traders can come along and trade against that liquidity, Bitcoin for stable coins and other assets that people choose to list on the decks. And then we also have a borrowing and lending facility where people can again deposit assets to lend Bitcoin or stable coins and other assets and then users can come along and like combine the trading and the borrowing and lending to do margin trade. So they can trade up to 5x leverage on margin. So all of that is happening like on chain and yeah, it works. It's been running for a couple of years now. It does. I think a million, two million or something like that and volume a day. So it's still relatively small, but it's been working and slowly growing. Yeah. It seemed to have lost Ben, but when he comes back, we'll see what he thinks about that. Let's go to Dan. If is the United States at risk of losing their tech future, we finally getting the point where they're cracking down on these legitimate Boy Scout following the rules, entrepreneurs. Well, they've happened to come be that they've been friendly to regulation, right? They've been closing up record with the regulators and it seems like trying to do the right thing in the US. So it's kind of a big deterrent for businesses wanting to start your business in the US. If the biggest company, you know, the biggest, you know, US based trading company can be hounded continuously by the SEC and the recent one was about staking, right? And how they got they got told off for staking mechanisms and obviously, whether you've obviously have loads of shit coins on there, but you know, pretty much every exchange does nowadays. You can't avoid it, right? Because if the customers want it, you're going to supply it to them. But it's that classic example of regulation to evacuation, right? You get regulated too heavily. You get fed up with the markets as Ben said. They're kind of probably given up, right? Imagine sleeping at night thinking any service that you have is going to be attacked by the regulators and why bother focusing so much of your efforts with regulation when there's all these absolutely insane obvious scams out there that aren't being chased as much as say, you know, given the time of day from regulators as Coinbase are. You think about like how much efforts got into finding one coin still probably a lot less than Coinbase and all these other crazy scams out there. Yeah, legitimate businesses that tried to be good with regulation like Bittreks as well and other one, they're being targeted. And that's kind of, I wouldn't want to start a business in a place where you know that you're just going to get spanked every time you try and even make a good move or whatever the right move is. But one thing that was interesting that I didn't realize in that article is that the in March derivatives trading volumes are much alone by the sounds of it. Derivative trading volumes on major exchanges at 2.8 trillion dollars, which is a huge amount. So it's a huge business to be getting into. So why stay in a market that is so difficult as John said to why not launch derivatives in the US and go and do it elsewhere. You're not going to please anyone by doing in the US. They're only going to look at you even harder and under more scrutiny. So it just makes perfect sense to sleep better at night and be in a location set up at a location that's going to be a bit easier on you than the US region is. Also as John was saying they have those large mansions in the Bahamas as well as Bermuda. So you know, never too late for Brian Armstrong to branch out and join a polycule. But as Dan was saying, I think this goes well into the exit question. Bittrex the US exchanges recently sent me that all too familiar email. It's time to withdraw all your funds. We're getting the heck out of your country. Do you think I'll get a similar email from Coinbase? A minrofe is Coinbase going to leave the United States? Yes or no? I believe so. Yes. They'll leave. They won't go down with the country fighting the regulation. Online will Coinbase leave? I don't think they'll leave completely. I think they'll probably still continue to do spot trading here. But yeah, they will set up some other business entities outside of the US like maybe staking, maybe derivatives and other things that the regulators are not cooperating with them on here in the US. I do love the idea of them losing their virginity here. Coinbase is like, we're better than those other exchanges. We don't do those things. We don't work in the dirty sneaky countries. We work in the US. Now they're like, we aren't making enough money. We need to go to that sneaky country. We need to do those weird derivative things. Dan, if I'll then get set up, will Coinbase leave the US? Well, one move could be. I don't think I agree with John. I don't think they'll leave completely. One kind of smart move for them might be if they're really that worried about regulation. Since Genzo, again, recently was grilled about Ethereum being a security, he confirmed that Bitcoin is not a security. So what if Plot twist, Coinbase went Bitcoin only in the US? They were like, get the hell out. You know, get the facility to share coins now. What else do you want to say? Transfer them out now with Bitcoin only in the US. And that could get them in back in the good books of some Maxis. It will be like when Jesus threw the money changes out of the temple. Everyone will cheer. Ben, Ark, your back, what do you think will Coinbase leave the United States? Yes or no? No, I think the US is going to become a little bit clear regulatory. John, I'm so good today. I missed that explanation. It's just your approach. But it gives me a good excuse to watch the video back afterwards. I was holding afterwards. But yeah, cool to see that you're building a decentralized exchange. That's clearly the answer. And I'm very glad to see people using RooStock. It's great. All right. We're going to move on to the middle of the show. Check out madbittcoins.com. We're celebrating our 10th anniversary today. Many years ago today made a little madbittcoins show. And here we're going to watch the first one. It's only 30 seconds. I don't have a microphone. I'm like kind of yelling at the camera. But here it is. 30 seconds of madbittcoins on April 21, 2013. Good morning, bitcoins. I'm Fiat Currency. And here are today's madbitts. Butterfly Labs actually shipped something. I'm working. Giga hash in the wild. That's why I've sent my money to butterfly labs. And I'm in line with everyone else. Can you feel the momentum? Giga hash in the wild by bitcoins today. Madbittcoins. So there you go. I didn't just recommend that you buy Bitcoin. I said that you should buy bitcoins. Multiple, multiple bitcoins. And that's amazing. I didn't even realize I was here for such a special day. So happy 10th anniversary, madbittcoins. Did you ever get that butterfly labs, ASIC? It's pretty interesting. Eventually I didn't get it. But it was so sad because as I show in the next episodes and stuff, it's like the difficulty goes straight up. Something about my timing there in April, like madbittcoins kind of joined for the Giga hash moment of Bitcoin mining where for a couple weeks, you're like, if I could get this box for $300, it'll make $300 a week. Like I'll clear in a month. I'll be in the rolling. And then by the time the box comes, the disaster with the company, everyone else in the market getting Giga hash at the same time, I think that we did get a small butterfly labs box, the little itty bitty one. And we ran it for about six months until it covered its costs. And then I think it went on eBay sadly. I thought we should have kept one, but it was tough. It was all your predictions on your legal pad for your mining business or whatever it would be. All went down, all lost money. Mining was loud and interrupted all my movies, but was never successful at money making. But Ben, Arck, what do you think about madbittcoins? I think it's spectacular that it's been 10 years in the congratulations. And the madbittcoins, whoever that guy is, I mean, he has such a huge impact on Bitcoin. Like there was so little content out there back then to see this, you've done who it is, but I mean, could be stoshy. Whatever this guy just appears and then produce all these videos, occasionally produces a video now. It's all very impressive. But no, absolutely, it's a romantic occasion that we're 10 years from madbittcoins first video. And yeah, maybe we'll look forward to the next 10 years. See where we are. It was pretty amazing. I remember no one was talking about Bitcoin at all. Like I read about it a few years ago. I didn't get into it then. And everyone has that tragic story. But around, you know, 2013, I had on my list of like January things to do. So by the time it gets to April, and the price has gone from like 30 to 300, or 30 to 100 or something disastrous like that. Well, it's finally time I give up. I'm going to get in because I was like, oh, I should have got it at a dollar. I should have got it before a dollar. It was all these things. And then once I was in, it was like, well, you know, all my $1,000 in savings is gone. And no one is talking about this. And I think it's just the greatest thing. I was so excited to read about the possibilities and think about how kind of like an aquito move, you know, something small like the Bitcoiners could flip something large like the Federal Reserve or the state or the way money was done, or even just having people send money across the internet for a cheap, even just getting rid of Western Union, where if you're, you know, sending money back home, it's not eating up all your money, especially kind of the poorest people who are sending money back home. And as well as just from like a artistic perspective, I was really excited by the idea of the QR code. And then on the end of the Mad Bikwins episodes, there's a QR code. And whoever you are in the whole world, you can scan that and you can send like 10 bucks to Mad Bikwins. I thought that was just the neatest idea because I knew YouTube took a cut, YouTube, you know, gets on your butt for the taxes and everyone should pay them of course, but it's just, it's very complicated if you only make a couple hundred bucks to pay the $3 in taxes, but you should all do it. But this crazy Bitcoin thing just jumps over that. So if you had it in an artwork or a poster on a wall, someone could support that cause, someone could help that person with that QR code, just cause a Bitcoin and then now later, we see with the Lightning Network as well as like a new way to send this Bitcoin. Dan, Eve, what did you think of the Matt, go ahead, Ben, you want to talk? Or I just say it's really interesting just having my Bitcoin on the right consistently on the right side of history because obviously a lot happened between then and now and a lot has changed, but I think one of the most important things about Bitcoin is always on the right side of history. And for a lot of people, like, you know, if anyone's a fan of the shows, it was like a guiding light to help give information, could give them to, like, give good information, which we could form opinions around and then make the right choices. So, yeah, it's great. I felt very much like in the beginning, like if I didn't report on it, that it didn't happen. And so I didn't really watch like other people's publication. Yeah. And also I wanted to give my kind of spin, my sarcastic take or with Bitcoin, usually my positive take. And one of the big things about Bitcoin, I wanted to do is I wanted to be positive about something. So many times you're like the government or the secret conspiracy or whatever and they're dragging you down. And it's impossible to do anything because the enemy is so everywhere. And with Bitcoin, it was like, no, everyone can do a small thing. Like getting one person into it is a success, talking to the taxi driver or the Uber or leaving someone to tip, all these things are our success. And they're also just just buying the stuff because you're taking the money out of the banks. Like it's the ultimate contribution to Bitcoin. It's just getting some. Well, and that's what they would do too. If they disagreed with something, they'd take their money out of it. And we have the chance now to have an option to have a plan B, as they say. And like you're saying, Ben, I remember during the scaling crisis that I kind of felt like Bitcoin was going this over this waterfall. And I was like, what's going to happen? Why are we going over this cliff? Are we sure we want to do this? We're going to fracture the community. And I kind of went there and I was going on Twitter and I was just kind of hassling people, trying to get them on my show every day. And I did that kind of series of shows where it was like an emergency in Bitcoin. And I talked to Roger Vier, and I got his full side of the story. He was having trouble using it as a merchant. And it seems that he could have gone on to the Lightning Network and had success there. But he didn't see that succeeding. So he wanted to go his own way with the B cash. And then I talked to all the other technical people and they had their own perspectives. But it was really nice to try to put the pause button on Bitcoin there and try to get those interviews together. And then by the end of the week, I was pretty much, yeah, there's no uniting these communities, Roger Vier. What does it want to do with their models? That was what I mean, no to ex-moving came out of my Bitcoin and the Bitcoin group and things didn't. And I mean, for most people, I think for most of us, that's one Bitcoin actually had value when it beat the big corporate interests. And they were like, okay, this thing is, it is censorship system. It can't be controlled. And that's when it really got interesting. So on the right side of history, I can. On it was so unlikely that we would beat them. First with the UASF, getting that in there over what we now think to be the wishes of Bitmain and G-Han and the ASIC Boost issue. And then the second thing where the corporations were like, oh, well, now we're just gonna double the blocks because we feel like it. And everyone was like, no, maybe we shouldn't do that. We should wait some more, be scientific. And it was interesting, Ben. I remember when we went to the Bitcoin Paris type of van, I forget which one it was, but it was fantastic. All these other people were into No2X as well. And they had stickers and they were talking about and they put it in their presentations. They're like, by the way, No2X. And it was like this sudden idea where it wasn't just us like at home being like, maybe we shouldn't do that, just being cautious. It was all these serious researches guys, the programmers, the people actually involved. And I think that really united and helped the community. Dan, what do you think about Mad Bikkun? So you remember your first time? Oh, indeed, indeed. It was like, I can't remember. I'm pretty sure I watched you first before I listened to the first two I listened to yourself and Trace May when it was one to go. And yeah, it was back when there was no media like even then there was just no media coverage right? There was every now and then you'd hear even not even a mainstream news. It would be like some side news outlet that would cover something that was the farrier spit coin related, but you couldn't get news from anywhere. So yeah, it was just great to hear a refreshing like news source and something that was really interesting as well. Like, you know, you're hooked in by the psychedelic backgrounds and the hat. And if you'd have listened to Tom on that very first day when it was on the 21st of April 2013, it was $123, which would currently put you about $27,170 up. So, you know, Kudos first like for anyone that bought at that time. I went down the same route as you. I bought butterfly labs, I bought blocker up to cubes. I bought all sorts of stuff. I tried to get in on the juke like Jupiter miners. Is it Jupiter miners? But end of K and C ended up buying a load of script miners for Litecoin. And others flower tech was the one that I got hooked into. And yeah, this crazy days, and then ended up building a little mining farm out of GPUs because I got stitched on every single like azure I bought. And exactly the same thing like had a massive spreadsheet. All these calculations like how much profit I was in as I was waiting for it. I was like, oh, this profit, amazing. And then it got here and it was like difficulties up like 50 X. Like, no, not savage. All those dreams just bluttered away in a butterflies and the flap of a butterflies wing. But yeah, incredible that you've been doing 10 years producing content. Absolutely amazing. And yeah, I was just proud to be part of like the world crypto net as well, which is also nearly 10 must be nearly 10 years as well, sure. Yeah, it's about nine years for the world crypto network. And actually, I think the Bitcoin group started before the world crypto network. So we'll probably hit the Bitcoin groups 10 anniversary pretty soon. What episode is it as well? What's the episode? 355 I think. Wow, 355. And those are weekly. So those are hard to get with a 52 weeks in the year. And I think one of the big successes not that mad bitcoins caused it, but I think we all caused it together by talking about Bitcoin, tell everyone about Bitcoin, all the podcast, everything else, is that now Bitcoin is regularly used as a joke on late night talk shows. They're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Bitcoin. Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha. Like, everyone knows what it is. Like, it used to be, you know, two technical or drug money. And it wouldn't be a joke like that. Now, it's like Bitcoin that people lose money on. Bitcoin that weird currency that I don't know how to use. It's too confusing, which is a much better place for us to work from, to try to build it up. But yeah, they do always. And I've seen it just casually just, you know, it's not like they invested in Bitcoin. Ah, ha, ha, ha. So I think that's a huge, huge victory for the whole space. A man, do you have any memories of mad bitcoins or anything you'd like to say? Yeah, for sure, man. So I got into crypto in 2013. I remember buying the first Bitcoin for 50 Australian dollars. I was like, this is warp craft money, man. I just got scared. What is this one on my screen? Oh, on my cash bag. But then, yeah, I went and read the wallpaper properly and got involved a lot more, proactively and learned a lot more. And you were definitely one of the main people that was allowing people to die in a digestible manner, receive the information in regards to what's going on and how to be involved. And all the other exciting things that was going on. So I definitely remember that show. And it was just different, you know, there was a lot of people that were involved from a developer's perspective. And it was boring, man. It was really boring to hear a lot of like the deaf talks and all these stuff that they were just like preaching to the choir. And it wasn't very like inclusive of other people who didn't have a technical mind. And you're sure definitely a great job in terms of being able to make it fun and make it interesting and get people involved in that way. So I always do appreciate that. And also seeing you at the Hackers Congress and being able to be a part of that. And you know, it's been a great journey for me personally as well, just like all the OGs that got into it and where we are at now. And yeah, with the mining, you know, I had my own pool for Bitcoin. I had like several pools for different cryptos. One was X 13, which turned into dark coin and dash. So yeah, it takes you back when you took me back to when I saw that day, 2013, I'm like, damn, a lot has changed. Now there's all these people talking about essentialized exchanges. I just want to tell you something, which you might find crazy. You know, I do workshops and courses on cryptos. And I have a lot of students when I tell them, you know, you can buy Bitcoin or cryptos in person. They're like, what? You can buy it in person with cash. I'm like, yeah, I mean, that's how it started. You know, like that's how it's designed to be. They're like, wow, like I'm being very genuine. You know, like it's not even a joke. They're like, where do I find these people? I'm like, well, you know, meetups, there's people meeting up. They're like, there's people that have meetups for Bitcoin and crypto. I'm like, yeah, man, go and meet up.com or Facebook or ask around. You'll find the right groups and they're like, wow, like it blows them away. You know, because they've been so focused on what the garbage that comes out of TV and like what you said, you know, they're doing by Bitcoin. Like it's like, he's the clown here. But yeah, it's good to feed them that information. I just thought after 10 years, people would have figured out this stuff, but it really shows you how little people are informed of what's really going on and how to get in touch with it and how to obtain it, but are going through centralized exchanges. And once you go through it and you know, as I do with my students, they just like never look at the centralized exchange again. I had like two ladies in their 40s and 50s who really literally found like a couple of Bitcoin ex 80s around Sydney and they drove just to like use it. They're like, we will never use the centralized exchange again after knowing how it all works. I'm like, good on you ladies. Good. Get it. But yeah, grania and you know, I'm sure he's got points. Yeah, you're key. You're good. And yeah, congratulations. 10 years. It's a long time to be on the front line. So good on you. Thanks, man. Yeah, I think one of the other things we're still working on is that you can buy less than one Bitcoin. You can get like a point zero or point zero, zero one or all these kind of things. So just they still have that. That's right. You know, I thank you for bringing that up. You know, they're like, now I can't afford Bitcoin's to expensive. I'm like, you buy $100 worth. They're like, what? You can do that. I'm like, yeah, yeah, we show you by like 10 cents if you want, but it's not going to work. I know where the idea comes from like stocks or gold bars or whatever you have to buy the whole alone, but even now with stocks, they have programs where you can buy like $100 of Apple or whatever. If you don't have it for the full share. But it is really fun. Like I'm in with saying I kind of having John here is great too because we used to go to the San Francisco Bitcoin meetup together. And it feels kind of like we went to college together and then we all went away in different places and the crazy COVID happened. We all stayed home and nobody got to meet up. It's like, I haven't seen everybody in three years and all this stuff because of just how the conferences went and how the COVID went. But it was great as a man was saying to get into the mad bitcoins because there was no kind of humor in it. There was no lightness to it. And at first I got kind of push back. I got kind of negative comments. So they're like Bitcoin is a very serious thing and you're being you know, unserious and you're not being Matthew enough and you should go slower and why are you we're using a weird voice and why you have a weird costume and you shouldn't have this and it would be great if you just did it like a normal newscaster. And I was like, I'm trying to break through and try and get it in a different group. And that's what's so interesting is that that did kind of happen. We went from like the the veterans and the cipher punks to kind of normal computer people to kind of normal people. And then to see as you guys are talking about earlier how like the NFTs and the art movement brought in all these people. And now we're seeing as Ben was saying through Noster and being able to just share information just notes and other stuff generally could bring in our next round of users. And our earlier rounds of users, they don't even necessarily like the new rounds. They're like, I don't like the art people or I don't like the notes people that just want to send data around or especially when it gets combined with the art people are now, you know, stacking their notes data in the blockchain is Bitcoin stamps or Bitcoin ordinals. And now there's a whole nother debate going on. But I think all of this is great. I think it was great to add this fun of mad bitcoins to the bitcoins. And I also think it was great things like let's talk Bitcoin that also started around the same time that was more serious and that was more like Colin radio and more serious stuff. All of those voices together and all the new voices got us where we are. So I think it's great that everyone has that perspective. And thank you guys for responding about mad bitcoins. We do this kind of in prompt too. And my goal tomorrow is to get up early and try to watch some of the old episodes, maybe hang out with some people or someone's around. But it's really fun. We're going to watch some old episodes over on the mad bitcoins channel. So check that out. But now back to the Bitcoin group on to issue three. I think that was I honestly think that was the most important story to be honest with that we are. Let's carry on. Most important and confident. We can't had ourselves on the back all day long. Only sometimes. All right. Moving on to issue three Bitcoin Lightning Network is a thousand times cheaper than visa and master card. According to data. Yes. Bitcoin is finally starting to flip. Visa and master card. Thanks to the Lightning Network. We always used to talk about this before. We're by how Bitcoin was too slow. It didn't do enough transactions. And let the transactions cost too much. Now the Lightning Network seems to have perhaps solved both of these problems. Let's go to John Light. What do you think about the new data that the Bitcoin Lightning Network is cheaper than visa? It doesn't surprise me. I think visa and master card have virtual monopolies in their domain. And they're centralized. Then there's a lot of friction and regulatory red tape and what they're doing. So it's no surprise that they're costs far exceed those of a decentralized peer-to-peer free market for payments liquidity that we have with the Lightning Network. But it's good to see that intuition backed up with real data now. And it'll be interesting to see if we can keep that competitiveness as the Lightning Network grows. It would be great to get back into the whole Bitcoin adoption thing. I watched some old mad Bitcoin's episodes getting ready for the anniversary. And sadly, a lot of the time I talk about going to restaurants and using Bitcoin and I get a lot of flack from the beat casters and such. They're like, oh, we can still use our Bitcoin at restaurants. It would be great to see Lightning Network rise to that level. Ben Arck, now that it's cheaper, our company's going to get in it. They're going to figure out they pay to use visa. They only get their money at the end of the day. It's a settlement system, whereas Lightning Network boom, instantly, hardly any fees could change the world like we used to say about Bitcoin. I think it's probably for use cases beyond visa and what the visa network is capable of. So I don't remember when the Lightning Network was kind of a concept and it was being worked on. And then the other beat casters and say, so the big lockers would ever say, vapor, what they'd vapor where when it was more academic. And there were all these conversations about how many transactions Bitcoin could do. So like visa network could do 27,000, it was the number 27,000 transactions a second, whereas Bitcoin could do seven transactions a second and it was like, okay, clearly this isn't going to scale when you something better. And then the Lightning Network started and people started running nodes and there were some node implementations and it was buggy and hacky and people were doing it for, you know, altruistic reasons for geeky reasons, much like when they first engaged with Bitcoin early on. And then going back to our previous topic of my bitcoins, when I did that rubble interview on the World Crypto Network in Nosterica about this is the guy who employed Jack Dorsey. And he worked on a lot of free and open source projects in the past. He's kind of like the free and open source hacky guy in Twitter trying to keep it free and open source. Obviously that's an impossible mission. And we had a good conversation about that how important the social aspect is the free and open source. And if you can have some great free and open source project, but with no social movement then it doesn't get any traction that one uses it. And it's a shame because it's a great technology. Like something like liquid might come to mind. I always feel there should be a better social movement around the liquid network by Blossom stream. But with the Lightning Network we had the full mo and was probably the main driver which is the German lot, the sort of hacker German lot, they really pushed the Lightning Network. They started the Lightning hack days, the Lightning conferences, so many projects came out of them like Alan bits came out of the Lightning hack day for all my projects came out of the Lightning hack day as well. And it was really that social movement which made the technology become successful and it's just as with Bitcoin, this is why this is why content creators or anyone who is trying to get people engaged with Bitcoin and especially in a fun way as well. Why it was so important, why my bitcoins was so important. But now to see Bitcoin, the Lightning Network being used and it's original use cases. So the reason that work can do 25, 27,000 transactions a second, the Lightning Network now it's surpassed visas through book capacity or transaction capacity. And because of that we can do tiny little transactions, we can be sending fractions of a penny, which is what people are doing in the last hour currently there's app in each other and they're sending these tiny tiny little amounts of Bitcoin and tiny little amounts of value which visas just can't do. And I actually think that this is the way in which Lightning Network will be adopted more by different industries as I'll be like wow this opens up all these use cases now which we just can't do on visa because visa technology is just not enough. Like it's just it's too, there's not enough transactions, they cost too much. You know like we need to do really more than a dollar to be able to make it financially viable on visa. And I think that's and so pay as you go content, pay more content, that's that sort of stuff and zaps and you know, no sort of applications, bunch of other applications people I mean sort of yet, I think that'll be the real driver into people using Lightning Network. But it's fascinating now because for such a long time Lightning Network was just hobbyists you know and a bunch of you know some services you could get you know if you pay for your hosting or whatever online. But there's some real things you can do with your Bitcoin on Lightning Network now which is great, great to see and long way continue. I think a lot of younger Bitcoiners look back and they're like why would you ever spend Bitcoin? Why would you even tell people to spend Bitcoin? This is disastrous even donating ten bucks to mad Bitcoins I've had people get mad at me. That ten bucks is worth a hundred dollars now and I sent it to you and whatever if you didn't rebuy I mean you have to rebuy. But I think what we're talking about here is having too many transactions in the blockchain and it's because of these people who were sending it around, who were spending it, who were talking to their taxi drivers and their Uber drivers that it became too popular that the programmers then had to make the Lightning Network. They had to look for scaling solutions. If no one had ever used it, it never would have done that and I think we're going to see the same thing with the Lightning Network where people need to start using it more and it would have got for Bit, it gets full but if the Lightning Network was... No, this is a thing it can't get fully. You can't fully have to make a second one or just get too big. No, no, no, just guess it's got infinite capacity just you just open more channels. The biggest limit I've heard that before and then I get down to Excel, sheet number 255 and it stops syncing and it throws away the rest of your data without telling you about it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, the need is to be able to make China. The same thing I hear that from my Apple Eye Photo. It holds all your photos and I'm like, what about 100,000 photos? What about 200,000? No, this is different but the biggest limitation is opening channels, opening closed and channels but that'll be fixed with channel fat trees or whatever. Sorry. I do think... Channel fat trees don't allow you to open new channels as people, right? You can only open channels with the people you already have channels open to, but for onboarding a new user to the lightning network, you still need an on-chain transaction, right? Yeah, it's still potentially fixable problem. It's just finding a solution. And then we have top route now, we can do a whole bunch of things we can do for a Bitcoin. Some will find a solution for that problem, I'm sure. Yeah, I think interestingly enough, we're back in the same cycle where we need people to use it, people to buy and sell things for lightning and to cause the network to be expanded. And we need people to talk about it, not just at a mad bitcoins or a podcast or level, but just everyone that sees a mad bitcoins or this show or whatever, and then goes and talks to their friend, talks to their brother about it, tells someone else forces them to buy $100 in Bitcoin, holds the computer to their head, whatever is necessary. It spreads the word, it spreads the network. And now, lightning network is a whole new challenge. It's a whole separate thing. It's Bitcoin, you know, to what everyone say. Can I turn that to that, if I may? Sure, go ahead. Yeah, cheers. So, you know, you set something interesting, which is like, it started off with, hey, man, you can go to this restaurant or bar or wherever and you can use it, cryptos or Bitcoin to pay for things and give it to people so they know how to use it. I know so many people I can look back, but after many years came back, they're like, hey, remember that $100 in Bitcoin, you send me? It's worth like, you know, a couple of grand now. I say it's beautiful cities things, but somewhere along the line, and I say this as part of some of the videos, I do. People's minds got hijacked and they started believing in this concept of huddle, huddle, huddle, and then spend it. And they're like, and I think it's such a toxic mentality to have because it really does damage in terms of adoption and people being able to use it and actually learn to use it with other people and pay for things. And I never understood why people, you know, I think it's been hijacked. People's minds have been hijacked rather than their actual desire to hold it onto it. And this is why because there's no reason why you can't just have like an allocated amount that you use for spending or for purchases and you have still your savings account. It's like money, yeah. But there's so many different assets in life that you can just kind of be like, oh, hold onto it and one day we'll go up. It's, wait, it's just going to be sitting around your 30s all the time. Like 40, 50, 60, whatever. And you haven't seen anything and it's just like, thank God I hold onto my crypto. It's like, well, did you do anything with it? No, but I do have a lot of crypto. It's like, you know, I remember getting into it in 2013, 14, 15 before it became infested with people that just came in for the money aspect and it was used to do beautiful things. Like I used the majority of mine to travel and speak at the events and share the knowledge with people and it was very, it was a more blissful period of that crypto era. Whereas now it's just, yeah, it's changed a lot. So thanks for bringing up the concept that people need to use it. People need to really go out and use it. And I really love seeing people like go and find restaurants or bars or whatever, where they can spend it. So it's fun. It's just like, cleanse your hand off that blood money. I definitely think it's a great idea for people to use it also for them to have multiple wallets. Like you said, multiple accounts, like have a long term, you know, life savings, have a normal savings, have a spending money. One, I think a lot of people were like, they kept it all in one account and then they felt move to donate to somebody and they're like, Oh, here's your point one. And I like, I just sent away my life savings, my savings and my donation money all at one time. And then if they don't rebuy almost immediately on whatever platform you want to rebuy, they lose money or they gain money or whatever and they get all mad about it. But like I mean, with Sarah, remember my first time kind of watching a Bitcoin transaction on like a YouTube or an explainer in the very early days, it was all command line. And I was like, Oh, yeah, this isn't going to work, guys, where, you know, I mean, I can see where the value is coming from here. I can understand what's going on, but everyone else is going to think this is a trick. And they're not going to get your warcraft money here. You know, your point zero, zero, you're said, Oh, you sent it to your, oh, but when you actually use it yourself for the first time and you get that wallet and you send, you know, a dollar or $10 or whatever from one wallet to the other. And you realize that it happened without an intermediary with like a bunch of random intermediaries, right, which is better because they can be trusted, whereas one, you know, could be corrupted and so forth. And then, you know, you send it back and it's like, it happened again. You know, I think the old days used to go, you know, you don't have a huge like computer beep, you know, the whole sound and everything. And yeah, it was just so fun that like starting to send it around and having, you know, for me, one of the big breakthroughs is, you know, why I didn't get in in 2010 and I did get in in 2013 is that, you know, especially coin base and bit pay were there. And I was like, wow, there's an easy to use wallet and there's a merchant thing. So I can go to the, you know, dovey site and I can buy something and dovey can get paid and he can pay the people that he bought the thing from and all of this. I was like, wow, this is, you know, much better than that command line thing. I looked at a few years earlier. Dan, Eve, what do you think about the lightning network using less energy than visa? It's just generally better, right? Well, what's really cool about it is that is the Bitcoin often gets mocked because of its fees, right? But now Bitcoin is cheaper than the biggest payment systems on earth and like buy, buy a long shot with a huge amount. Obviously, it's, it's not on the main layer, but the fact that it's faster, more efficient and much cheaper than the biggest, you know, payment networks we have is that's a huge, huge, you know, a trophy to sort of to swing around, I think. And I think I must admit, so I totally agree with the, like, the blissfulness, if you to explain it as the blissfulness of the era back then, right? It really was a different kind of a different mindset. And I definitely agree that the, the, the, the hoddle thing, this is just brand, but the, the hoddle thing is a free hat. And I think it's, you know, it's good to have both, right? You know, obviously, the, the hoddle thing gets people in, right? It's, it's one of those things that make people click, but it definitely was more about Bitcoin as users of payments. You know, I, I, exactly the same thing. I, I think it was, I mean, it's about replacing Western Union. That's, that's how I heard a bit like it is, you know, it would, it's Peter P's. It's paying someone from around the world. It's internet money. It's the thing, you know, rather than it being like, this is an asset that's going to replace everything on earth. You know, everyone's going to sell everything they have from Lego to post start post cluster to goal to Uranium to get their hands on Bitcoin. So it has definitely transitioned, I think, I don't know, somewhere around like 20, I think it was reasonably like, you know, 2017, it's 2018 that we really started to transition into this hoddle thing during that, but that ball market of 2018. But, you know, I think whilst the, the, the mindset changed from like, you know, from a spend Bitcoin everywhere. Here's some, here's some Bitcoin. Here's some Bitcoin, which you know, all of us used to do like it was doze raid like back in the day. Now, you know, the mindset has changed, but only because, you know, I think for a lot of us, it's like, if you hadn't have done that and you could have just been like my, my brush, just Bitcoin, you know, we'd all be insanely rich right now. So there's probably a bit of like a bit of, you know, whilst the word animosity towards those who didn't, who didn't spend it. You know, you were part of the bunch that spent it and, you know, shared it around and you gave Bitcoin to someone who then says, again, come back to you like I mean, said like, oh, yeah. Yeah, that Bitcoin gave me as worth a huge amount now. So, you know, I feel, I feel good about it. I feel good that I gave out Bitcoin in the early days and I got people hooked in and suck it in. So, and Lightning Network, you know, it kind of exploded during that period where, like it was probably what I ran early 2019, right, where the number of channels just went through the roof. And now the capacity, the capacity is what is it? It's like five and a half thousand Bitcoin, which is just huge. It's like $161 million according to BitcoinVisuals.com. So that's really, that's a really cool milestone, you know, that in the hundreds of millions now locked into, into Lightning Network. And it shows that it's evolved like Bitcoin has. It's not like a brand new protocol now that you really can't trust, you know, obviously, you know, once it's still experimental. But ultimately it's reached that phase where there's a level of trust in the trustlessness, as it were. And that's brilliant. It's a great thing. It's reaching that reaching this level of maturity. And it is starting to be accepted by businesses. And if you're one of these places, like they said in Cape Verde, where they where they get paid, they have to pay up to 8% to Visa and Mastercard. Like that's an insane amount. Your business is losing out on huge profit when it could be accepting Lightning Network. And, you know, if you're saving 8%, then that's more than enough to to to accommodate for swings in price here and there, you know, you're making that much more profit by not accepting Visa and Mastercard. Let alone American Express because they charge to apparently a lot more. So yeah, who ready for Lightning? I think I think I just want to say there's I think a big part of people spending early on actually was because like you thought it was going to break and you were like, well, I've got this thing and I can do something with it. And I might as well buy a fucking pizza. Might as well buy something before the whole thing imploded on itself. There wasn't the certainty that this technology will stick around for it for longer. So, you know, as a like I was I recently shared a place with Marty Malmo. It was a second person ever to work on Bitcoin after the Starship. And the dude would be, you know, multi billionaire had to kept his coins. But obviously, think he was coins and there's always someone who's who spent more coins than you spent. And it's the Bitcoin won't be anywhere without people spending coins. And, and that's what's great about the Lightning Network. Because I think part of where this this this hard on thing really took hold was during the scaling wars. There was a good argument from the big blockers. It was like, you know, you can't use this as money. You can't use it as day to day for day to day money. And then the smaller blockers would be like, well, no, it's a store value. It's not it's not meant to be used as day to day money. It's both to store values and store a larger amount of value within Bitcoin. But now we can have Bitcoin on chain. They have kind of the best of both worlds. So just like you say, Thomas, you have your savings account, which is your Bitcoin on chain stores some are super safe. And then you took some sats into your Lightning wallet and that's the thing you got and you used to spend in your cafe in your bar. And all those transactions for coffees are stored on a blockchain anymore, which is great. I also think Ben there's kind of a novelty to spending Bitcoin and getting stuff. Especially I can't think for these early people, but if you'd held it for years and it's like, oh, it has this value. And finally, you could buy Alpaca socks or a keychain or whatever. And you got something real for it. You're like, it does have this value. Like I got this keychain and it was this kind of real reality proof. And as Dan was saying, it's sad. I think that we only have two acceptable investing strategies in Bitcoin. You can hoddle, which is great because you don't have to think about anything. You just hold everything or you can trust a guru or a system, like a chart watcher or a magic eight ball or somebody like that. And then that in the same way, you don't have to think about it. You don't have to take responsibility. And that's what leads you to using something by DJ booth, the xsats.net, where you go back in time. And you're like, oh, if I had bought this, if I had bought this, but you're like, I wasn't responsible. I was following my hoddle system. I was following my guru system. So I don't think that's the worst, the worst website, which has ever been created. No one go anywhere. And it was called again. It's awful. It's called xsats.net. And it's similar to the original website, Preve, that a lot of Bitcoin is used where you can say, like, what's $10 in Bitcoin? What's $10 in Satoshi's? But then there's this horrible button below there that DJ booth is engineered from his mad laboratories in Australia. And this button lets you go back in time. So what was the price on April 8, 2013? And it's like, oh, that one dollar, that was $100 now. And it'll wreck your mind. So you have to stay away from that. But both these systems are about getting so that you're not responsible. And there's a lot of other systems of religions and other things that make it where, you know, you're not responsible for your life. Like something else is controlling your life, alcohol or a religion or a god or a parent or a wife or somebody. Somebody's controlling your life. And the system that, oh, sorry, didn't mean to catch you off, Thomas. I was just going to say the system that I'm a fan of is a DCA dollar cost average and spending replace. So I think if you do those things, if you're, you know, if you like Bitcoin, you do those things, you'll live a life with very little regret. But yeah, I would just say, you know, overall, do what feels right. But that strategy has worked for me for a while. And I also think like I'm in with saying you have to find this kind of middle way between never spending and like Ben was saying like if I'd bought in 2010, I never would have talked to any of you people. I wouldn't have went on YouTube. I would have been at home like Howard Hughes with a long fingernails and the jars of piss. And I'd be counting my Bitcoin as going, ha, ha, ha, ha, right. And I imagine the same for minus Marti or what I don't know. But the same thing, if he had had that wealth, you're not out there talking to people, you're not going to meetups and stuff. Obviously, you know, Matt Bickwin's is not rich. I go to meetups and stuff you could tell. But I think that you have to figure out kind of a moderation between that like never traveling, save all your Bitcoin or like waste it all on a Lambo or a Ferrari or whatever it is. There's this this middle ground and a lot of, you know, religions and things talk about that. But it's very difficult. It's not like easy to just be like, I'm middle ground now. It's a lot easier to be like all the way vegetarian where like I never eat meat. Rather than like, I eat meat every once in a while. And the same thing with like smoking cigarettes. You're like, I smoke them all the time. Or I smoke them whatever once well, you go right back in to smoke them all the time. So it's that moderation that's hard for humans to capture. And can I jump in? Go ahead, Amelia. Yeah. It's interesting actually like Ben Tuchson is or it was, yeah, it was during the 2017-18 period where the scaling was sort of thing was happening. The narrative changed into this store of values. So I saw like they were trying to change the narrative of Bitcoin from this thing that if you read the white paper, it was meant to be for micro transactions and like these sort of things that people were using him for. And then they changed the narrative to like, no, it's actually a store of value. And I think that's why I pissed off a lot of original Bitcoin fans because they changed the narrative into this kind of thing that you just hold onto. And it's not for paying for coffee and it's not for going to the restaurants and paying for food. It's actually not what it was designed for. It's a store of value. And that really pissed me off personally as well because it's not all about the origin. I don't know how, I mean, it ostracized a lot of people. I don't know how much good that that bit of propaganda actually did for Bitcoin. Because it's like you say it was just it was it was wrong. Like it seems like a building block for everything that came afterwards where the lightning network did provide what you wanted with the micro transactions and we did get there because of SegWit. Yeah, but I mean, I think a long way they said it was a store of value. People, people, people are clever enough to understand that you can use it as money and currently it's not scanning very well. Like you don't have to actually change the purpose of the technology into a store of value. Yeah, agree. And it was interesting because back then in Netherlands, there was a city on Hermit was called the Bitcoin city and they had like over a hundred grocery stores, bars, cafes, restaurants where you could go and pay with Bitcoin. So one of our meetups actually would be to meet there on a Wednesday and all the Bitcoin fans would come and would go around this city and you know go to a bar have a beer and go eat some food and like do it all with Bitcoin. And then all these people that are now like regulation is great. Well, what regulation did was in Netherlands now you have to pay like 20 or 50,000 euros per year to have a Bitcoin or crypto license to be able to do that. So the business that actually did all that for free and provided the payment gateway for free so people can go and pay it all these restaurants and everything. Suddenly they are to pay like, you know, huge sums of money to be able to continue operating. So you just shut down all these real grassroots oh seem to have lost them in but I do think one of the problems. They're probably enjoyed it. So well, the good things about Bitcoin but also a problem is it has so many features that it's kind of like a Swiss army knife so tell someone it does payments and I like that. It's great and you know it also fights you know online censorship. I like the payments better and you know all these kind of things different people like different things and they're all true you know you pull out all the different blades of the knife they're all there but and then you tell someone it does all those things and they're like that's ridiculous no one thing could do all of those things like you're making this up. So it is very difficult to explain I think. Amin do you have more on the or Dan you want to go first and then we'll go to Amin on the Lightning network but go ahead. Well at least now we've got the best of both worlds right so Bitcoin mentioned you know on chain is a store of value and and you can still get the store of value if you're using it off off to an online Lightning network on layer two but for a much cheaper transaction rate so exactly you said like you know you've got your savings account and your and your wallet and you know those are two completely different things no one ever takes their whole life savings around with them so you know you've got access Bitcoin that's very easily accessible that can be used in lots of different places and use very cheaply and ultra fast getting around that thing of like when you know all the people said Bitcoin can can be used for coffee but I said a transaction it's still asking confirmed and my coffee's gone cold like you can't say that anymore because you can use Lightning so it it it it it transacts faster than it it takes to actually pull the coffee so yeah screw you guys. I agree with you Dan no one keeps their entire savings and their checking account so forth a fun story we were playing video poker at one of these machines recently and usually they have like a top to the bet like a max five or max 10 but this one had no max bet so when you push max bet it put like all $60 that you had in the machine into one hand of blackjack so fortunately my brother won so he pulled out of it but interface questions like that you think max bet is usually five or 10 you push it you got your whole savings account in there you better win that bet or you're going to lose it all so I mean what did you think about the Lightning Network outpassing visa? Yeah I think it's for first of all he cares what visa is doing I mean people are waiting for that kind of thing it's it's different mentality I think it's great I think it allows Bitcoin to be you know used as something for daily purchases I mean I lived on crypto for over 10 years so for me like if people understand how the fiat system works they will they should do what I would suggest that they do whatever they can to not use it so it's not just like we use Bitcoin because it's this cool thing or like you know decentralized money it's like screw the fiat system like clean your hand of something that has caused so much devastation around the world that caused millions of people to become homeless at some stages caused millions of people to like you know lose their livelihood and so many things have happened through the fiat system so when you have a choice you should exercise it it's empowerment it's it's it's a tool of human extension in terms of freedom so it's it's strange when people don't use it and you can always buy more like when people like I can't spend my buy more man you get more it's fine clean your money up to you then put it in the crypto and it's all good so I love I love that people can do that and it also allows for people that post podcast shows so there's a guy from euro from the hackers congress you've been making time for sure so he has his entire podcast and a platform that you can do with lightning network and that's great so you watch you know you listen to the podcast you watch it and in straightaway tp and support all these artists so it's like we did a fourth 360 yeah like we were like yeah micro payments no store of value in the like no okay we're back to micro so it's great I love it and screw visa so he cares it must be very frustrating for the the beat cash fans we're like we wanted micro payments the whole time and we just circle back but again I think Bitcoin can be everything to everybody it has a lot of different features it's just which one is the most important to you let's move on to even now we've got even now we've got side chains like rootstock that you can do a theory and smart contracts so if you're if you you know if that kind of thing interests you and you're like well I just want to do it with Bitcoin well now you can Bitcoin yeah it's it's it's a programmable money so I think it's just up to people to use their imaginations and think of you cool new things that they can do with it and it's probably possible we have the NFTs from at least two or three different angles now with counter party ordinals stamps liquid NFTs on a side chain I'm sorry rootstock NFTs talk NFTs I'm sure I wasn't I haven't seen them but I'm sure they have them and yeah it's great it's a great way to spread the word about Bitcoin and get more people in different uses of these networks but yeah I must be frustrating to those who like I want just one usage or one usage was more important to me and John you can't remind me back I remember Vitalik was considering putting you know the Ethereum network onto Bitcoin and that was his early first ideas and then it became the Altcoin and all the other Altcoins and it's funny to see that come back and that's kind of what we said at the time we're like Bitcoin will do this it'll just take longer like the security issues getting things adopted segwet things like that it'll just take longer and no one has any patience for that but then if we wait long enough you see it happens anyway like Bitcoin did did get all these things I think Altcoins are high time high time preference activity but you know there's there's some useful R&D going on out there I have to see how it goes and what's really cool is seeing these people coming back to Bitcoin as well these great Ethereum developers and the lots of the coming back to Bitcoin to work on Bitcoin stuff I'm loving that the flood of new talent again in Bitcoin from it sorry sorry we always said we'd welcome them back and we'd welcome Roger back and so forth we do welcome them back and also Bitcoin the currency the protocol the code it doesn't care it did notice you're gone even if we wrote angry messages about it and so forth on the medium or a Twitter whatever Bitcoin the protocol be fine you can you can come on back so all right is everyone done all right I'm way I'm way see that big pause there oh wait all right moving on to issue four because we're running out of time a newton grand mother scammed out of twenty thousand dollars used Bitcoin ATMs to send the money we've talked about this before especially with our friend in the UK who actually has a convenience store where he's seen this happen the lady was kept on the phone she was told that her identity had been stolen they were going to get her a new social security number and they were going to help her move her money over to protect her identity of course they were moving the money into their own Bitcoin wallets the way these scams work is they keep the person on the phone the whole time so the person's driving to the bank the person's driving to the Bitcoin ATM and as our friend is described in person at a convenience store they'll keep the phone glued to their ear that is someone will say hey what are you doing what are you doing with the twenty thousand dollars what are you doing with this you know massive withdrawal from your bank that you're now shoving into a random machine that you've never seen before and these people are just kind of in a trance and they're in a trance and they're just intent on sending this money and then they wake up it's at this lady sent two tranches of ten thousand dollars before she went to her lawyer she could have went to her lawyer first then sent the money and she got it but before Dan Eve what do you think about scams like this they're going to be more and more common the common denominator of course is the Bitcoin which cannot be cancelled or easily returned I actually think sadly we haven't kind of seen peak scam yet I think that it's a technology that let's face it because it's so good it can be used to scam and I don't think we've seen enough of it you know I'm expected to have seen more kind of ransoms and things like that maybe it's because they're kind of played down and the institutions or whatever they've been companies that being ransomed want to be quiet about it to protect shareholders and that side of things but I think there's definitely it could it could be a piece of it noise my dogs so it could be abused a lot more so but but when it is it's obviously really sad to see here in cities like like that you know like you said about the ATM I think I think it's a post-op scam in the UK that was sort of going around you also get the HMRC scam as well and people frantically trying to try to withdraw money from here there and everywhere and it wasn't that in with the article about Ian Freeman a while back they were saying right no you know he was asking more questions than the banks were with people making nefarious transactions but I think that article does make a really good point which is they said quote do you really want do we really want bank tellers screening us and asking how much money what are you going to do with it you know is it religious mess it for just about legitimate purposes you know there's how far do you go with trying to protect people without a money cobbling and kind of you know asking in a patronizing way you know what are you doing with your money why do you want to withdraw that amount of money and let's face a 20,000 really isn't a huge I mean it's a big amount of money but it's not huge compared to like you know compared to what could be deemed as a big sum of money nowadays so it's you've got to be you know strike a careful balance between trying to protect people and not intruding on their personal space and putting them under pressure to answer questions now obviously there's there's certain people that are should be more protected like you know I don't know if this is this stereotyping but like the elderly right you know because they could with new technology could fall for certain scams more than others as well because they're kind of maybe they're not say less street wise but then I know a lot of young people that fall for absolute like culturs of stories like I did for dope one finding having a treasure in his ass or which which is probably fake I don't know who knows nowadays but yeah it's just really sad when anyone loses money from a scam I've lost many many a penny over the years in Bitcoin scams probably the most I've lost value wise was when it was actually coin telegraph promoted the fact that and crypt bitcoin news promoted the fact that K&C miners were back in 2019 I think it was and I went in on it because I thought oh I trust that you know it's been around multiple news sources blah blah blah they even had set up articles about companies and their legal companies were taken over K&C miners so I thought oh they've you know they've really set up to this kind of the launch date or whatever and then I sent sent multiple Bitcoin it turned out to be completely fake and I knew immediately after pressing the button but anyway anyone losing Bitcoin's bad maybe she needs to go and raise funds on tali coin the bank should have some kind of minimal standard maybe no one on a cell phone should withdraw more than ten thousand dollars something like that but obviously the scammers will adapt they'll make them like hold the phone down and the people are basically in a trance it's like they're in an action movie now and their hearts beating fast and some of them they say they've kidnapped their husbands other of them it's a tax problem in this case they told the woman that they were going to protect her that you know they're on her side they're going to keep her money safe and of course tragically she's sending her money away I'm in Rafi what do you think about these Bitcoin scams are they going to continue will they get worse? It's been happening for a long time I feel a lot of it you know there's so many scams occurring even beyond Bitcoin I know if you know a friend that got scammed I think 75 thousand Australian dollars and he had nothing to do with Bitcoin you don't see that on the newspaper or like you know on the news media like fiat being targeted for you know but that's why they want to bring out digital ideas and all that jazz I think I'm dubious of these articles especially given the source of the article I'm not going to take away you know the person's pain having to deal with it 20,000 might not be a lot in today's times but for some people that's a lot of money that's all their life savings so I feel for those people and then they don't be greedy that's what I'm going to put it out like there's a karma to every action we make and I don't want to be rude to that lady but question you notice us why you did that without even consulting with an individual that may have a greater understanding of it so I don't really blame the scammers I blame the people that participate in the being scammed you know there's it's a two-way road no one's forced you with a gun point to go and like give that money to an organization you should just if you don't know any better if you're in a vulnerable position just consult with your peers or people just ask questions is the first to but if you're so blinded by greed that you're just going to go and cash out 20k and just force its way into a machine in the hopes that you're going to get back some amount that you're promised that's more on you than Bitcoin or any other technology anything else that's going on out there that's just my two sort of issues personal response feel is a big part of life people I must be strange feeling though for them to use this machine they've never used before one of these weird Bitcoin ATMs and it just be like shoving this money into it more money than you've ever put into a machine before you know you buy a candy bar or something it's not like this but again I really I think they're under a trance it's a completely different state of being and they're not thinking rationally because obviously they should go talk to their attorney or their counter or their best friend you know if you're going to invest 20k into something you'd be like I should talk to my best friend first but they can't do that because they stay on the line sir stay on the line you know don't hang up this the IRS is going to get you John Light what do you think about these scams is it all Bitcoin's fault by having this one-way transaction system they kind of allow this and make it possible I wouldn't I wouldn't say it's it's Bitcoin's fault like like a min said people have gotten scammed with fiat many times I mean fiat itself it's got a one giant scam but yeah so this isn't Bitcoin's fault I think it's I think it's on the one hand I think it's what's needed is education so I think you know just more people should be educated I don't know what it takes PSAs you know just more you know conversations about these things on mainstream media just you know people being maybe people's banks sending out like my bank I have a credit union you know they send me I get newsletters from them probably quarterly at this point I was just like hey here are some scams that like our customers have said like are you know they're getting targeted by look out for these kinds of things so I think that kind of education is helpful I've also seen at Bitcoin ATMs in in my neighborhood they actually have either signs or like on the screen you have to like read like in like big you know bold letters like you know Bitcoin is commonly used for scams if you have been contacted by somebody asking whatever like don't if you use this machine and you have to like you know click a button to like acknowledge that you read this message and you know I think but you know there's only so much you can do to like try to protect people from themselves when it comes to that side of things but but I do think that more of that just making people aware of the the adversarial environment that we're in now with all of the technology that we have nowadays that's used especially now with AI and like voice faking and you know things like that like the scams are really getting next level now and so it's just I think important to make people aware and yeah like remind people like hey if you get that call like maybe you know surely you can kind of suspend this belief for a moment and like hang up call the IRS back or call you know the social security administration back on the number that you know is theirs that's on their website or on you know some paperwork they sent you and say like hey did you just call me did you know yeah what what's this about um just you know show a little bit of skepticism for these kinds of things whenever somebody calls you or contacts you asking asking you for money um and then on the other side I think you know having these like protective measures like if somebody like a bank is going to be a custodian of your fund like your money um they should maybe have some like extra measures in place to protect you or have you know certain things that you can opt into to say like sure I want to be able to withdraw maybe like up to a thousand dollars with no questions asked but if it's more than that yeah like ask at least ask me what like why I'm doing this or maybe even if you're like uh if if you are um uh maybe uh elderly or something like that like you can say like hey I want to have my significant other sign off on you know larger transactions um or maybe you know my my child or my lawyer or somebody like that sign off on larger transactions just because like I know like I'm getting older like my my understanding of technology isn't so great or maybe I'm I'm starting to get you know since uh some dementia or something like that like I think having these safeguards in place that people can opt into um I think I think would be you know good to have and we have that with Bitcoin we have things like multi-sig um and uh you know I think it would be good to have some of those things in the fiat system because it can be just as ripe for abuse as you know cash or or electronic cash like Bitcoin. Oh I think people have to see that in the right ways not a restriction on their account or a restriction on their freedom but a protection from these scams because like you're saying John the the old guy should be able to spend a hundred bucks wherever he wants but if he's out spending a thousand bucks maybe he should talk to his son first uh there's also time shares and multi-level marketing and all kinds of other things that you could get in trouble with where if you had a little protection on your account and sure it could be turned off and if you want to buy the buy the mixer whatever they'll sell it to you um but to have that that protection and to see it as a protection also as John was saying I think education is the most important thing uh but and I should really write a book about this but I do think we made a choice when the propaganda of World War two one and two were successful and we brought everyone home and then we switched to advertising propaganda where if you have too smart of an audience and they're too good at critical thinking they see through the advertising right and this is a big problem so you have to have them educated to the point where they can be valuable to society but not educated to the point where they see through the propaganda and and this leads us to these people getting into these panic states when they pick up the phone and an authority figure tells them to stay on the line and go with draw a 20 grand and put it in this machine that's part of success like they need to accept that they're supposed to be doing that for Budweiser or for uh you know Goldman Sachs or whatever the the correct marketing choice is a not for that guy on the phone so there's a hole there uh they also had a really interesting interview on uh CNN recently and I'm not supposed to get political um but it was all these people from Fox News and they were telling them how you know the Dominion lawsuit worked out and the Fox had given them incorrect information on the election and that they recently paid $757 million about this incorrect information and pretty much all four of these like well educated nice people slightly into politics they said I am going to keep watching Fox News like they had this big interrupt this giant uh the largest defamation case in the United States a huge interrupt like maybe you should look at your actions and say wow you know a moment of clarity I've been drinking too much you know and look at your actions instead they all said without a doubt they're like I am smart enough to see through propaganda they're like Fox could be throwing the greatest propaganda in the world at me but I random normal guy who hasn't studied history and so forth am smart enough to see through it I'm going back to the well and it was pretty crushing and pretty tragic to see it but that's how we are as people but we believe more in ourselves than maybe we actually have and uh those critical those critical thinking skills are the hardest things to teach the hardest things to learn and it's not just being opposite like I believe the opposite because this is true or whatever you actually have to do the research every time on every individual thing and and then you have to be capable of doing the research like have a research background and not just googling stuff but Ben I fear we've drifted far what do you think about the nice old lady who is scammed at the Bitcoin ATM? I think the news and our people in terms of the news is very interesting and the side effects to this information revolution because you have um there's a certain generation most of the source people who will get scammed by something like this where uh they grow up in a very regulated world and they're free press in all these countries on developed countries they could trust there are some journalistic integrity because they're monopoly on press and there's an expectation there and they could be regulated by government and so on and of course they swayed one way or the other but there was journalistic work um and then you have this information revolution and then that that same sentiment is passed across to just joke logs on the youtube video and some more day watchers are in there and believes this thing to be true all that thing to be true and actually normal people it's just a very fact that they were programmed that this thing reporting news before had integrity now this thing also reporting news is probably got integrity um uh and slowly people are learning that they need to be a little bit wiser and they need to be critical thinkers um and it's just a slower journey as we as the information revolution takes hold and we're moving from that world of a regulated world to a free world with more autonomy and then it becomes role of government not to regulate the role of government to educate um and uh if you know if there is government or whatever but government companies whatever that needs to needs to educate and education is the key um uh and uh yeah but the the the the the news how the news evolved over time is is it kind of interesting it's a shame really that you then because what happens is with the traditional news outlets sorry is they then need to compete with Joe blogs on YouTube and they haven't got the resources to do so so they just start saying things as well and before you know it you can't actually trust anything anyone says ever uh and that's why you need to start doing your own journalism um so people are getting their people are getting wiser and this whole deal was part of that process everyone's been scammed um at some point uh and if you have a good modern to you but it's nothing to be ashamed of and um uh yeah that's that's the rest of the panel so I think education is key on this it's uh the role of government to if they're all going to regulate things and to really educate people uh well they can't make it if they can't regulate the certain industry then really educate them as much possible on on things they should be looking out for it is interesting Ben how news is expanded from kind of guys on suits on your local news guys on suits you know national news guys on suits CNN and then there's this kind of point where you can photocopy this guys on suits format and put a different ideology into it and that it's not so much news and trust and the search for journalistic integrity it's what your ideology is and uh that the people perhaps trust that too much and and again if you're using one source as your information like you're already in trouble like you just need more sources uh but we've gone on really long today so we're running out out of time so let's go to Dan E for a prediction or a story of the week go ahead Dan always always on the spot you know I never pre-prepared for for my story of the week of prediction so I'm gonna go um I'm gonna go sadly there's gonna be a big big event uh before the end of this year in terms of a Bitcoin ransom that will actually shake the news up something that's not gonna be small time but there's something that's gonna be a big kind of turning point where you know the people really start to to you know it maybe it may even be a cascade of these events once the criminal realizes they can extort people in such a way but I do think yeah we ultimately we haven't seen as many of the scams like in in Bitcoin's as I think we could be seeing given it such an incredible technology everything from the past is coming back Dan predicts the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby the 20s are here again he wants a Bitcoin ransom this time uh I'm in Rafi to have a prediction or a story of the week go ahead yeah all right prediction I see Binance being targeted so I don't want it to happen but I wouldn't be surprised if Binance drops and a push for essential bank digital currencies thereafter that's kind of a worrisome prediction that I don't hope happens the the people that know how to use non-castodial wallets and really know how to use crypto as the true way do not have anything to fear so that's my two stoshies you never know when Binance is going to end up like sheep marketplace it said it had great service right up until the weekend when they exit scammed and you just couldn't get them on the phone a John Light prediction or a story of the week go ahead maybe a story of the week um for me it's a big week because I'm going to be speaking at the MIT Bitcoin Expo this weekend in Cambridge and then I'm going to be at BTC plus plus in Austin next weekend very exciting um other than that I've just been heads down building so I have no idea what's going on out there in the in the rest of the Bitcoin world um but yeah those that's uh that's the big story of the week for me and uh if anybody out there is going to be at either of those events please come say hi I'm always down to chat um I'm going to be presenting about my research on validity rollups on Bitcoin uh which uh I originally published at Bitcoin rollups.org and um we'll now be kind of giving uh giving the presentation at a conference talk format so looking forward to that that's great John congratulations and where can people learn more about the sovereign decentralized exchange that you guys are working on? Sure um so the main website is sovereign.com that's s o v r y n .com and that'll that's the main portal which will take you to our community channels and of course the decks itself um so definitely go check it out if uh if that sounds interesting to you sounds great sovereign.com and Ben Arca prediction or a story of the week go ahead very cool um the um congratulations by Bitcoin's uh and I very much enjoyed chatting to everyone today and it's a big reminder as to why people should attend the ups conferences and things because it's just great to share um you know words spoken words with other Bitcoiners and through ideas around so I've enjoyed that very much um I want to quickly share my screen because we've Alan Bitts we launched a uh a SaaS you see that we launched a SaaS um service so uh now I can pay 21 SaaS an hour and I can launch my very own Alan Bitts um uh using uh our server and then you can just run it you know you could have a uh an Alan Bitts running just for a few hours for a meetup if you wanted to or you could play around with the technology and you can install your POSs and that sort of stuff and you can go to manage extensions here go to all and all these extensions you can you can install into your WordPress install sorry your Alan Bitts install just like WordPress um and that's all now possible through through our SaaS which we have for the the cheap price of just 21 SaaS an hour and you can pay hourly as well so pretty good way to get people to like experiment with the Alan Bitts 10 software um and uh yeah we're excited about it and we've we've had a big uptake as well people playing around with it which is which we see so thank you for everyone for doing that so previously Ben you had to set up a server or a node to run Alan Bitts now you can kind of rent an Alan Bitts extension for you guys no no see I mean you could use our demo server if you want to election to Alan Bitts .com just to play around the software and it could use someone else as Alan Bitts server or you could run it yourself on on your own computer or vps it would make it easy but um there's just kind of a need for people to be able to like spin up one just with a few clicks so this actually installs a fresh a fresh Alan Bitts install um in our you know a little Kubernetes cluster and you get your own fresh Alan Bitts instance which is completely you know gap from all the other instances and you can just use it to play around with Alan Bitts as as an admin as if you've installed the software yourself but you can do that for just 21 sets now as opposed to actually having to install the software itself so it's kind of like Docker you have a container and you can have your own Alan Bitts instance in there it's a bit like yeah it's a bit like uh say WordPress.com I suppose if you can't bother to spin that WordPress yourself then you go to a press.com and you can spin up WordPress uh WordPress and it would yeah let's go out that sounds great and people can try it at lnbitts.com yeah just go along play around with it yeah all right and a min did you want to tell people what bit topia is and what you're working on with Bitcoin education? thanks for opening up that channel I felt a bit left out I'm like I should have you know with my project London thanks for coming back around uh yes a bitopia came about because of everything we spoke about it was like 10 years and I was still confused why people didn't know what Bitcoin was and it was so interesting for me that you know if he was created by the IMF or something everyone would know what it is so it wasn't that happening with Bitcoin so I did like a word cloud and did a kind of a survey as to why people are not using Bitcoin in the way that it was designed to be and the number one thing was knowledge so confirm my kind of hypothesis as to why people are not using it which is lack of knowledge education and also so that the education industry much like the financial industry was top down in which the end users pay their cars the systematic risk is passed on to the end users so in the education industry I saw the same thing so I wanted to flip that around and apply to do to their financial do what Bitcoin did to the financial industry to the education industry that's where Bitopia University came about to decentralize education and to go about like bringing about all these forms of knowledge that are hidden or sensitive in mainstream forms of educational institution so it's not just about you know we're going to offer programming and all that there's so many forms of knowledge that's just hidden in the traditional institution you don't have access to so we've done really well we want to ground from the Swarm Council Foundation to develop some parts of our system to be able to reward students and centralize the student process to be able to have like each course its own treasury so they can find and to be able to empower students to become entrepreneurs not just go out and work for some Google or Facebook or organization having that Dow system be applied to the university framework it's proven to be very powerful we've partnered up with a university in Switzerland to create our Dow course together so you know we're making really good progress so right now we're just looking for grants because at the moment we don't really want to go to VC route because you know the changes in narrative and the principles behind which we stand and also there's another project that came about through Bitopia University which is called Unchained Innovations and that's if you want to get you know if you want to get rid of your CIA phones and get some graphino-s phones or Linux laptops things like that is another service that is provided through that organization that came about through Bitopia University so thanks for allowing me to explain that to people if you come through mad bitcoins where can you channel what's the web page good so should I should I type it in it's just tell them tell them so they know where to go oh yeah so bitopia is bitopia.org bi tt o p i a.org and Unchained Innovation just Unchained innovations dot uh dot com and i will forward you to the right place and if you're looking for phones or laptops just putting where you heard this and definitely they'll look after you. Great stuff, man thanks so much. Glad we got your plug in there. Dan you don't have anything to plug? No I'm still like incognito with what I'm working on so yeah I can't really talk. I really have some other words to say about that but i'm going to start like writing some some new content so you know it's uh i'm going to i need to i need to start writing some some some tunes although you know there there is always the temptation to just get uh get it to do you know chatgp t to do for you i was doing it it gave someone an example like the other day and and in in about eight seconds chatgp t4 wrote me a cover of hotel California about being on the toilet and it is incredible like it's just amazing it's about being stuck on the toilet and not being able to reach the toilet paper and uh like it's it's just yeah so good so hopefully i won't i won't resort to using chatgp t and i'll use the the noggin but either way i'm going to try and make some new content especially for block jay miyorka because i just spoke to chris and should be should be there for this year's block jay miyorka days as well so i hope to see you there. Well that sounds great we'd love to see some new uh crypto raptor wraps and uh just want to thank everybody for all the kind words about mad bitcoins it's been 10 years uh seems a lot longer when you look back at it it seems like a blink like i remember yesterday and i remember going to driving to san francisco for the bitcoin meetup and meeting people in bitcoin and then going to you know Washington dc for the bitcoin and the beltway going to europe meeting people all over europe for bitcoins so it's been really fun uh it's been you know work but it was fun i mean editing is is difficult but when you get back into it you're like you get that product at the end where like i'm satisfied with this edit and that's that good feeling out of the hard work so i i have that for mad bitcoins i think that good feeling out of hard work and my general idea at the beginning was just you know do five a week uh do a whole bunch of these crank them out and uh and definitely that kind of watching pti uh part in the interruption with the sports writers yelling at each other at the end of the show that toney always says he's like well try to do better than next time and that was a big thing about mad bitcoins and i'm going to talk about that tomorrow uh if i go through some of the early episodes like every episode i tried to fix at least one thing like there were a lot of things wrong in the beginning uh but by the time you go 10 20 episodes and you're starting to fix very small things and your project starting to get really tight if you're focused on it in that way if you're if you're re if you're repeating it you know if you're like oh i'm going to do this again tomorrow i matter it make this easier i better streamline that so it's a great way to get a lot of like you know templates out a lot of test shows uh but now i'm going to watch them all so it comes back on you in the end but uh thanks to everybody for joining us be sure to give us a thumbs up and push subscribe down below until next time bye bye kids mad