#316 — The Bitcoin Group #316 - Tesla Sells - The Merge - Coinbase Crisis - New York Yankees

The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last ten seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists. Josh Tagala from thestander.io. Well howdy folks. Martin Wishmer from General Bites. Hello Bitcoin. Ben Arck from ARKBTC. Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. Musta Levista, baby. Anon Thomas Hunt from the world of crypto network. Moving on to issue one. Issue one. Tesla cashes out. 75% of its Bitcoin. 936 million dollars. That's right. Elon Musk, a friend to Bitcoin no more. What a difference a year makes. After Tesla loved Bitcoin, now suddenly they're selling Bitcoin. Josh Tagala, we all saw this coming. And now Elon Musk has done it. They stopped taking Bitcoin and now they sold 75% of their Bitcoin as CNN proudly proclaimed. They kept their Dogecoin. Dogecoin unaffected. Yeah, let's all keep the coin where its inflation rate is higher than Venezuela. That's tops. We actually talked about this on the show that he's a businessman who he won't sell at the end of the line. He's got shareholders. The CEO needs to bow to the shareholders and the board. And whether he wants to keep it or not, if there's a constant bear and you got to remember, Tesla is down almost 50% since November. So that's, you know, he'll be under a lot of pressure. But yeah, I didn't see anything abnormal. I did see it a bit abnormal that it was at the bottom. But if it was at all time highs, then they would probably hold even further saying, what's all time highs? Why would we drop this right now? So what was interesting is I would like to know when exactly because I want to see on the charts how much difference that sort of volume made. I'm guessing it was all OTC and someone else bought it because when someone sells, someone needs to buy, right? So the article could just as well say, so and so billionaire bought 900 and something million dollars worth of Bitcoin. You know, instead, it's a Tesla sold. So actually, the real article is always who met who? Who went up? Did the buyer meet the seller's price or did the seller meet the buyer's price? Does that mean to see the down or up? We always knew this was going to happen. We just thought the board of directors would make him do it. Martin Wishmare, your thoughts on Tesla selling out? Personally, I don't really care because I'm not a big fan of Tesla and I think Elon Musk is a bit of a... So honestly, don't care if he sells or not, but from what I understood, the reason he sold is because of extensive lockdowns of COVID lockdowns in China, uncertainty with a mega, mega factories and they just needed a cash. Their stock is down, they needed a cash. So they made them sell it. And it was funny that I mentioned that they kept their doge, probably because it was worthless and the whole price will go up a bit. But yeah, it is a bit no fun, you know. When it was announced that Tesla bought Bitcoin, the price jumped to 20%. And now that Tesla sold the Bitcoin, the price did maybe 5% maximum. So yeah, it's a tick tock, tick tock, there's not a block and Bitcoin moves on. There's nothing really to see. And it's good. I'm happy Elon cashed out because the whole tweet storm thing, which is just... It was just downright annoying. So yeah, please move on. Nothing to see here, business is usual. Yeah, I don't think he was buy in the future because he got a lot of criticism for purchasing this energy and tentative cryptocurrency while he was making green parts. I don't care really, somebody else will step in and buy it. Maybe Michael Seller bought them all. I don't know. Martin's previewing what I wanted to say, Ben Ark, is Tesla finally about the environment now. They won't take Bitcoin for a car and they're not holding a lot of that dirty Bitcoin. I mean, nothing. Three of the things he was on Twitter as a Bitcoin fan of somebody who knew who would try and communicate that he knew something about Bitcoin and he was an authority on Bitcoin and then they accepted Bitcoin and Tesla because he had to you turn because he hadn't looked into the carbon footprint of Bitcoin. Clearly he didn't really know that much about Bitcoin and how it works and how it's must or else they wouldn't have accepted Bitcoin in the first place. But Billion dollars worth of Bitcoin is a lot of money. It's a lot of Bitcoin to flood onto the market and it is great that it didn't dump the market too much. It just dropped the price a little bit. At the time when Elon Musk pumped the price of Bitcoin, that's 20%. We were about to head into kind of bullish, sorry, bearish territory and we were having a bit of a downtrend and then he came in and started pumping the price up and we got excited and then there's all this jubilation and the price went even more like synthetically higher than it should have been and then the drop was even harder for people. So it's not very responsible behaviour in my mind particularly because he hadn't obviously done his due diligence on Bitcoin itself for the firm to make that U-turn and it just makes sense now that they've done Bitcoin. This goes like getting out of the conversation where it comes to Bitcoin moving on and similarly get these electric Tesla cars out of the conversation that's all moved to hydrogen fuel cells which is a fast superior technology which doesn't rely on all these horrible lithium iron batteries and all these chemicals and compounds which needs to be mined in very dodgy mining conditions by small children in sub-Saharan Africa in order for you to have all these batteries in your car, hydrogen fuel cells are the way forward and we see these like huge companies come up out of nowhere and make huge fortunes and they're going to change the world and then they crash down to nothing and I think that's what's going to happen ultimately with Tesla and Elon Musk and his empire. But yeah, don't put the Bitcoin, I mean he's done the thing isn't he's like he's bought quite close to top and then he's sold right down at the bottom so you know, move full him. Dan, Eve, Elon Musk signed a deal to buy Twitter. Do you think he's selling the Bitcoin to get the money? Well now that there's that potential lawsuit then that's being hurried as well, you know, there is there is a reason why he would need a bit of extra capital and that probably Tesla shareholders are a bit scared about their assets and what's going to be needed to fund the Tesla deal. If the Twitter deal if it gets pushed through, ultimately Bitcoin doesn't need false idols, right? And anyone who has too much Bitcoin is considered a risk. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people would agree that if Satoshi came back out of the wood work and was holding a million Bitcoin, which is a huge percentage, then that's you know, there's kind of a risk that someone's got that much Bitcoin and can move the markets in such a way. So, you know, I think markets, you know, Michael Sali, kind of is doing a lot for for sourcing Bitcoin and trying to talk about the good things about Bitcoin, but at the same time he's got a lot of Bitcoin and when you have a lot of Bitcoin, you have, you know, a lot of risk associated with it. So I don't know, I think ultimately it's good that not one party controls too much, too much Bitcoin and and yeah, it's just a shame that the Elon got caught into the like, bye, hi, sell off like we've all done before. So he got caught, but it is just crazy considering how it, you know, the Tesla is meant to be like a green company. Obviously, the way they've mined their batteries and bars pretty hardcore, but that he didn't do the research into the mining. Now, hopefully this doesn't like turn into some sort of crazy ethereum play where he's been bagging up loads of ethereum because he's like, oh, you know, ethereum is going proof of state. So that could work well with Tesla, you know, it energy efficient ethereum and that's something that I wouldn't completely past past his craziness. And the doge thing, I think that's a bit of a misnomer because they would have had to have found someone to buy that much dogecoin. Like so, yeah, there's two sides to the sale, right? Like as Josh pointed out, if someone's going to be selling Bitcoin, dogecoin, then someone's going to want to buy that much dogecoin. So, yeah, I think that's just, you know, they kept it just because they have to. Exit question, yes or no, is Bitcoin better off without Elon Musk? Josh, I don't think Bitcoin gives a shit, gives a rat fat. Martin Wishmeer. Yes, yes, they worked Twitter tweets on Bitcoin and then a price movement now better off with that Bitcoin. Sorry, without Elon Musk, sorry. Ben Arkey runs a fancy electronic car company. Yeah, honey, budget on car just by Elon. Nice to know you. It's fine. Dan, is it a sweep? No one wants Elon around. Well, I think I think you too much of an individual risk because he's very kind of politically, you know, dividing at the moment. But I'm not, I'm not going to, I don't think it would be a bad thing if Tesla turned around and said, hey, we've, we've assessed the Bitcoin mining situation and we actually agree that it's now more than 50% manure renewables and we'll start accepting Bitcoin, you know, I wouldn't have a problem with that, for sure. It's only because they named it Bitcoin mining people, picture, pickaxe and coal. They should have named it Bitcoin politely bringing out of the ground some kind of nice thing. Maybe they could have named it issue two early thought Bitcoin Mounts surprise rally as fears of crypto, winter fade. The rainbow chart was right again, the price of Bitcoin and Ethereum bouncing over the weekend. Martin Wichmer, is it just the mad tour and the fact that Thomas Hunt is traveling around again that is obvious, he saved us from six more weeks of winter almost as if some kind of groundhog day type prediction was happening. What about the price of Bitcoin? I think this article is really what two days old and the price is already down again. So I don't think it's really, I don't think it's very much a news item any longer, but yeah, the price is, well, it's constantly going up and then I'm not, I'm not worried. You know, it will go up crypto winter, I out it last for a few more years because then we can stack more sets, but now I don't really care about the price to be almost. The price goes up and the price goes down Ben Arck, what about the price? Yeah, I mean, you just go look at the Bitcoin's undervalued, but I do feel like we're still going to go down. Maybe that 10k GDP, not GDP, GDP, price, which is what I was aiming for. But it's just such great work being done in the space by all these free and up resource projects, companies, individuals, there's just the stuff which is being built immense. And the value and the actual value of Bitcoin is far more than it was last year, before, whatever. So it just continues to have that bootstrap effect by people having all this access to capital, mainly from the price going up so substantially over the past decade. And that's going to continue to impact the price. It's a feedback, negative feedback cycle, just like a chain reaction, just we'll go up and price. We are probably going to dip down first, which brings us nice thing in line with the harvining pump, which is what a year away, we start pumping harvining when we start talking about harvining and pumping up. We'll start as soon as we can, Ben continuously, bearish to 10k. He wants to see Michael Sailor cry. He wants to see Michael Sailor cry away. We weren't at the New York conference last last week where we all were, we probably could have done a show, but it was just too busy and hectic, so I apologize to everybody for that. But it was quite nice to be a Bitcoin conference, and to kind of feel bearish, like there wasn't that too much, that wasn't that that many people there. They're all great people, the people who were there, but there wasn't that, like when you're in a bull market and you have a greater number of people who just come to any conference because they started hearing about Bitcoin's going up in Bryce blah blah blah, and there just wasn't that sentiment there. So it did start to feel like you're actually in a proper bearish territory now, which is good. That's where the platform to go up from. Well that's good. Benny Penny, the sky is falling. You know, you know, you're in a bear market when Chris puts on blockchain days, my uncle, because the guy has the worst luck when it comes to timing. Yeah, I mean, the poor. Dan, Eve, the price up or down, what do you say? I'm still on it. I'm still on it down. I don't think we're quite out of this little crypto winter thing. We're only less than a year away from the last all-time high. There's never been in history like all-time highs coming within a couple of years. It's going to be like 23, 24, when the price really starts to get all choppy. I think I'm not sort of about a dead count bounce, ultimately, everyone's already covered the infrastructure is still building and building. People more people and services using accepting Bitcoin and learning about it. So ultimately, it's just part of the ride. The price is just what follows a lot of still, a lot of external things like the stock market. We still have attraction to the stock market and other indices. We are susceptible as Bitcoin is to the price movements of everything else that's happening in the wider environment. But ultimately, Bitcoin is still here, it's still strong. The the hash rate is still like near all-time high, really. It's just under 200, 200 to ex-hashes. So it's only 30 ex-hashes from all-time high. Obviously, it seems like I think the difficulty to an adjustment down of about 5% the biggest in a while due to some other miners coming off line that drop from the all-time high of hash rate. But ultimately, Bitcoin is here to stay. And they've got all these funny EMAs and SMAs and all these little acronyms that they can use to save what's going to happen to the price. But no, what knows? That's the thing. So just watch it go up, watch it go down and just learn. It's a lot more thing than I just noticed. The block height is also at an all-time high. Ah-ha. Very well spotted. Josh, Shagala, do we need a warm coat? Is crypto winter continuing? No, the thing is with these like deep fails of price. Usually what happens is that people, when the price recover slightly, people are like, oh, this has been too much for me. And they usually sell. So usually after a massive collapse, you don't go straight back up. That's just usual. Obviously, it's not every time the case. And there's nothing you see on this show as financial advice. But I do feel that we're probably going to head back down for a little while longer as people just sort of take profits and get out for a little while. Because people are putting on for ages going on and on about this 13K. And when there's sort of this zeitgeist, this sort of mass with everyone thinking the same thing, it generally is a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I kind of feel like that's the case. The same that. I think from here on in, I'm going to sort of cross-average in a little bit more. You know, at a time, I think that's probably the move. But what about the fun of breaking poor Elon's heart? We always have that fun to count on. Think about that. And now your chance to compete against the Bitcoin predictor ball, the baldest and greatest source of all truth, truly an incredible ball. Martian Wishmare higher or lower this time next week. Well, I noticed the Bitcoin ball shrunk and just like the Bitcoin price. So I'd say it's lower because you know, this is a smaller Bitcoin ball. Ben arc small ball small price. Yeah, lower. There's still people who like were retired on Bitcoin who need to like spend their stash. And they need to go back to work basically and stop spending their Bitcoin. We've got to go a bit lower first before that happens. Dan, even more negativity. Yeah, lower. There's going to be a few more musk shakeouts, people panicking and they're like, oh, you know, I bet it's sell because what if it got dips back down to like 19 and then 18 again? And then what if it goes even lower? So I think there's going to be some there's there's a bit of turbulence in the turbulence in the air. They all down our group. Josh Shagalla. The old down a group, the American original. Yeah, sorry guys, down with the crew here. I'm going to go back to the market. Here we go. Will the price be higher this time next week? Maybe. No. And astounding maybe from the ball. That's it. That's advice you can trust. Maybe. Moving on to issue three, Vitalik Booterin says, Ethereum will be 55% complete following the merge and the adoption of proof of stake. Vitalik the king of throwing down arbitrary comparisons says that the difference between Bitcoin and Ethereum is that Bitcoiners consider Bitcoin to be 80% complete. But Ethereum's consider Ethereum to be 40% complete. Ben Arck, what do you think about Vitalik's latest invention following his classic labeling of Bitcoiners as Bitcoin Maxlists? Now Bitcoiners are too satisfied with their coin thinking it 80% complete. Whereas Ethereum apparently has much more code to write. Quick tangent because I can't comment in the chat, but I noticed in the chat, if I talk about renewables being used on Bitcoin, I have a repo. Or some eco Bitcoin is on RKBTC or some eco Bitcoin where I collect links on actual examples of people using renewables with Bitcoin. And there isn't any. There's one and it's yeah. So go check that out PR if you have any examples of actual renewables being used with Bitcoin when it comes to Bitcoin mining. Just want to drop that in because I couldn't comment in the chat. Sorry. But with Vitalik, that's Vitalik saying that it's 55% complete. And then he's looking at the Bitcoin community and saying, well, they think it's 80% complete. If you ask similar, what is Bitcoin? Is it the core? Bitcoin core? Just not the second layer of stuff, or anything else. Just the actual unshamed Bitcoin. How complete is it? He would probably say it's like 30% complete. He would probably have a lower number than 40%. So yeah, it's a bit of a bit of just marketing by Vitalik. I think most people who are working in Bitcoin and trying to solve some of the problems which Bitcoin has when it comes to scaling and rolling it out and getting everyone access to the Bitcoin network, they'll all say that it's not 80% complete. And that's just the wider Bitcoin ecosystem. I met if you were to go deeper and ask the people who actually, like the core developers, working on on on on on on on on on Bitcoin core, they would say it's probably lower than 40%. So yeah, it's just Vitalik just pulling out some silly percentages. Dan, Eve, surely we can trust Vitalik when it comes to talking and defining Bitcoin. He has no snake oils to sell, I'm sure. No, ultimately, he's got his own chilling points. His can be Ethereum. Obviously he started off contributing to a code buys, but it leads to in the cypherpunk mailing list he wasn't involved in that. He was in a round in the early days. But ultimately, he theorems his baby. And whether the assessment's right of it's only 40% complete or 55% complete, this seems like it could be a bit of a play for now that there's a lot of environmental fun that's pretty big, especially with the global heat waves and the panic stricken people everywhere, like usbreaths frying in 36 degrees and the other, this is a good opportunity to say, right, from Ethereum side to say, oh, Bitcoin is contributing to this, this boiling of the oceans and blah, blah, blah. And they're not using renewable energies and caring about the planet. Ethereum is moving over to proof of stake, which is less secure. Although in that high, although they said it's more secure, they didn't explain it just when Ethereum, proof of stake being more secure. No, it's not, like it's literally not, like it's there's no reference or anything citing why it's more secure. But I don't know, I don't get it. I'd like to read up on that, but it's obviously not more secure. So, anyway, so the success of proof of work. So this seems like it's a bit of a play attempt to maybe, as most we alluded to the next sort of our school, like we're trying inside a flippling, right? So Bitcoin's now on the come down of a recent all-time high. It's pretty obviously previous market cycles that we've got a little while before the next harvining, which is when things really start to get choppy. So maybe this is kind of an overtaking play. It's like trying to play the environmental side, push Ethereum proof of stake, push some Bitcoin environmental fard and to stir up the maximalism of it and try and get people over to Camp Ethereum for some price action. In between, maybe to try and get Ethereum to detach a bit from Bitcoin's price of cycles that are based on harvings. Either way, at the end of the day, Bitcoin is hard money. Ethereum is like playing money. It's like playing things, right? It's like toys. So Bitcoin is like the proper money and Ethereum is like toy money that you just sort of throw around. It's not even money. It's like toy thing that you use for clicking on things and staking things and doing things. So they're two different completely things. Things all together. Thing is, I think. The card I've been given says environmentally friendly proof of stake. Yes, environmentally friendly proof of stake. Josh Shagalla, is it another master performance from the great marketer Vitalik Booterin labeling Bitcoiners as completists or something like that? No, I think this is a false dichotomy. I think it's a false thing to focus on. Just like the constant battle between gold, bad, Bitcoin good or Bitcoin bad, gold, good sort of bullshit, we are fighting against one thing and that's fiat printed out of nowhere as debt that doesn't exist in the system with interest that doesn't exist in the system. And a fractional reserve banking. You know, I think everything else is experiments in code. I think what Vitalik's doing is very, very interesting. I think what Bitcoin's doing is extremely interesting. I don't even see if there's a flippering, but that even matters. That's the weird thing to even focus on. It doesn't matter. What matters is that we build an alternative mechanism to the monetary system. And I think what Ethereum brought to the game in terms of decentralized finance tools to be able to outside the banking system to not trust bullshit like Celsius who did the old Wall Street game of taking your money saying, we'll give you a return then going and speculating with those funds in ludicrously to generate ways. And then going, whoops, sorry, screwed up. Bankrupt. Totally, totally terrible. I think this is what DeFi brings to the table. It tries to replace some of the centralized finance stuff where you have to trust institutions with your liquidity. Yeah, you still need to trust smart contracts and code just like in Bitcoin on RSK. You also need to trust. But RSK and RSK is doing also really cool things on Bitcoin. So that's also happening there. But I don't think we should keep on fighting together. This, we are in a battle against the Federal Reserve system globally. That's my battle. I don't know what you guys are out there of battling against, but that's my battle. I think we've got something heading that we're all building towards. It's really, really cool. There's such amazing stuff happening on Bitcoin as well. Just being there at Mallorca and seeing Ben giving his hackathon and us and a whole bunch of other, also some women there at this hackathon putting together their Raspberry Pi, full nodes and lightning nodes. Really cool stuff, man. It's starting to happen where we're actually building, making change, making a difference against the old school centralized system. And that's the enemy, not Ethereum or Bitcoin or even Dogecoin. I don't care. It's all an alternative economy. And that's cool to me personally. Martin Wishmare is Ethereum the enemy because Vitalik's percentages certainly make it seem good. Except that it's a pre-mind coin, which is like basically scam. And then it is, they roll back to the blockchain because it's so decentralized, they decided to roll back the blockchain after they lost money. That's like, it's still very much not decentralized. And then now they're moving to proof of stake even though we know that only enables the current big whales to control the system, which is also another good thing. And it skills like a dog. And all these decentralized apps and DeFi ponces, it's all great. Well, it's all the future and stuff, except that they run all of them on Invera because it's the only way you can actually talk to the bloody Ethereum blockchain. And that's so centralized. It all runs on Amazon. Oh, and and the whole Vitalik with this, I look so weird. You got to trust me. I'm like a scientist. No, it's just a weird tech cult hippie. Sorry, if you're looking, you're probably not looking. But maybe hopefully someone tells you you're a weird tech cult hippie. I'm like, no, after we looked at Ethereum, built a port for it in the 80s and all, we decided that no, Ethereum is crap. And you know, they talk about the flippening, but they don't even know themselves how many ether and ethereum's or whatever they call it in the article actually exists. It's like a constant stream of shit coins that keeps like keeps producing 21 million for everyone. Now that's the store of value. I really believe in Bitcoin. I think Ethereum for Bitcoin to succeed. It's Bitcoin will succeed, but Ethereum will die. Once people find out that the stakeholders, for the proof of stake, they're basically all the exchanges because people leave their coins on the exchange and the exchanges, they own the stake. And they're not only in your best interest. So no. And then when you find out that all your decentralized crypto kitties die all of a sudden at the same time, and oh, wow, it was centralized after all. So what's the point of building a decentralized application? If you basically centralize everything, you know, these NFTs, I mean, they're basically it's bullshit. It's just bullshit. I mean, really, I can keep going on for this for hours, but it will just make me angry and already have high block pleasures. So no, don't care about the article. Just seeing the picture of this guy in this article, it is like, boom, the flipening. I said, no, no, I'm out. I'm out. No, stop enough mute. Stop the world. I want to get off. Epic rants. I think we need to get that on the Bitcoin clips. Yeah. Oh, wow. Crypto kitties never die. Moving on to the exit question. Will Ethereum flip Bitcoin? Will the market capitalization of Ethereum be greater than the market capitalization of Bitcoin? And do you care? Ben Arck. I mean, the problem with proof of stake is it will work. And then until they have a UASF event where someone like Roger Verne and the big corporations starts to take control of Ethereum. And then the users won't be able to claw back that control. If we'd had proof of stake on Bitcoin when Roger Verne did his thing, then we would all now be peddling Copcoin. And they would have won. We wouldn't have been able to fight back. They would have too much power. And as Martin says, inevitably people leave the Ethereum on an exchange, and they're going to be the ones who have to power an ultimate power. So it's really quite terrifying, but it will work for a while until they have one of these events and everyone will go, oh, wait there, we actually don't have that much control and that kind of sucks. And during that period, how long the period may be, maybe a few years, maybe five years, then yeah, absolutely, it could flip in Bitcoin off the ecology fud over the problem with proof of work being very carbon-heavy. I asked somebody to drop the link for Satoshi's viewpoint. Because in 2000 on the Bitcoin talk, forum, somebody's second is thermodynamically perverse on this very topic of how carbon-heavy Bitcoin is. And I think Satoshi in his ultimate wisdom within a few paragraphs just somewhere I think Lee. And it's not about renewables, it's not about us using clean energy sources, it's about the stuff, the legacy systems we will replace, it will Bitcoin far and away and that positive is that social scalability and XABO stuff. So cool, I want Bitcoin to use renewables with mining, I'm not sure it's really going to happen and I'm not sure it makes sense as a base load to use for your mining to use renewables, I will go on that run. But yeah, proof of work, proof of stake could work and for a while until they realise that they've just given a full control to a few centralized players. Dan, Eve, yes or no, will Ethereum flip the market capitalisation of Bitcoin? Well, if it did, it has no bearing on what Bitcoin was designed for and what it's still designed for and being used for. It will just be a price thing that as part of some market hype and pumping will potentially, it's only got what, two and a half, it's 1.01 market cap of Ethereum right now. So it's 4.41 for Bitcoin, so that's 1.01. I don't know what the math says, but it's just over 2x from where it is now, if Bitcoin stays still. So it's not completely out of the question that crypto will go up 100% in a small amount of time and place some funny antics on the top 10 of CoinMarketCap. But it's still a different thing, it's not Bitcoin ultimately and it's just going to be a bit of a price gain. But yeah, the fact is that I just see them as two different things. I don't almost see them as competing. That's a chart that just shows you what the market gap is. There's no other relevance to it other than the fact that there's two things on a list. There's plenty of other things on the idea that are completely incomparable to Bitcoin, but there's still on there. So you don't count them as part of the competition against Bitcoin. It's just a thing that's on the list that's measured by market cap, which is the supply of the coins multiplied by the price. So yeah, I don't really care if it does flip it or not, because Bitcoin is still doing it, doing its thing. All the ways interesting is that it did say that you see Ethereum and the base layer hitting 100 transactions per second after all this all is said and done and whatever, which is a yeah, it's the first time I actually read that and to actually quote it from Vitaly, but I've not had how that exactly is going to happen from a technical level considering it's what 17 transactions are now on a list. We've gone up a bit. It's the same there. How was the transactions a second who would be able to do with proof of stake? He's a 10,000. I think so. We said 100,000 or something. Maybe we're going to either way. Maybe it's 10,000. It's still one million transactions per second. So that I, of course, says to the end of this roadmap, Ethereum will be a much more scalable system but are inset by the end. Ethereum will be able to process 100 transactions per second. So yeah, very interesting how they're going to be able to do that. Through the shouting. I could shot 100,000 in a second right now. Yeah, you're all about the shot. Just sharding everywhere. Josh, Shagalla, will Ethereum flip Bitcoin in market cap? Oh man. I don't know. Let's just say the gold is has a trillion dollar market cap for something. That's same for that. Probably it could. Yeah, it could. I mean, there's a lot of stuff happening on Ethereum. I think there's a lot of shit happening, but there's a lot of shit happening. A lot of weird coins and stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really care. So that weird enough to say, Mike Dupree, there he is. Martin Wiesmer, you say proof of work will ruin Ethereum, but will it flip Bitcoin in market cap anyway? You mean proof of stake will ruin Ethereum? You said proof of work. For stake. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really care. You know, I can create a shit coin out of thin air. Sell one to you, Thomas. At an inflated price. If I have a billion gazillion shit coins in my in my check at home, then then that I have more market cap than Ethereum. You know, I mean, it doesn't say anything about a coin. And also, I wonder how they calculate it because nobody knows how much ether there actually is out there. Because that is something even fetalic doesn't know. That's why I think it's the shit coin. You know, there is no definite number of how many Ethereum that is out there. Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. What? No. Like the blockchain. Tell you how many Ethereum. Absolutely. Oh, no, no. Because which is a vitality couldn't answer. And it was how many Ethereum exists and he couldn't answer it. And it was like exactly that. Well, maybe, maybe a lot of people on coin market cap, but it is complicated further because some of the fees are burned when there is a transaction or something. I don't know. There was like not all of the generated coins are there. And it is. Oh, I might put it on the back. But you can literally check. Like if you ran a program, you could check like the burn addresses and. Yeah, that's this is why fetalic didn't know how to answer it. You know, I don't believe it. I think it's shit because there should be 21 million. Anything more is unnecessary. And if we count count to 21 million and that is more than that, then he's used the shit coin. I mean, really? I don't know. I think there is something to say about having a soft amount of like, look, don't give me wrong. I love the fact that there's 21 million in Bitcoin. I love it. But it's the best thing ever. It's what made Bitcoin Bitcoin. But there is and I there is something in in trying different economic theories out when it comes to like development costs and supporting open open source developers and supporting communities and you know, building stuff out. It's and the idea of like a slow inflation, a very minimal slow pre program, pre understood inflation. I don't know, like no one knows what the best thing is and it's great that these experiments can run in real time parallel so we can see. I definitely understand that Bitcoin and I'm the first in line to also say, hey, Bitcoin, 21 million, I never want to change that. I never want to have anything changing that. But I do like the fact that there's experiments running. Yeah, I'm just not going to put my money in that. And that's what my financial advice. Yeah, financial advice. And you can take that to the day. Yeah. I think the numbers should have been capped. But the fact that there's 21 million specifically, I mean, I think 21 million is a bit of an arbitrary number. I think there should be a cap and whatever it is, we would have proportionately all been going. 21 billion, that was the perfect number. But I think the thing that plays down is getting people's heads trying to make them live in Satoshi, especially when we've got these hopes of Bitcoin being a million dollars one day. You know, getting people to think in the sense of, oh, I've got, you know, naught point, naught, naught, naught, naught, one Bitcoin for my paycheck, you know, this week. And it's a month's paycheck. It's a lot harder to sell to someone than saying, you know, if there was 21 billion, for example, they're like, oh, I've got three Bitcoin this week for my paycheck, which is worth a couple of hundred dollars or something like that. So I do think that, that, that, you know, the, the, the number itself is arbitrary. What matters is the fact that it's capped and it's finite and it's not going to change. And that's what makes it scarce. You know, it could be 20 or million, it could be 21 divisible by 67 zeros. Maybe it's zero. It's not arbitrary then because it's obvious because 22 million would be too much. I mean, don't trust me that. 21 million is just right. 22 billion is wrong. It's like the coldly locks half a 42. So obviously, the answer to the universe and everything. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. And obviously, you guys are being too hard on Vitalik. He didn't know the number of Ethereum because he didn't know if you wanted to include the pre-min. Yes, you were unclear about including the pre-min. Ethereum probably will flip the price of Bitcoin just to piss you off just because you think it shouldn't happen. Therefore, it will happen. Check out the World Crypto Network audio podcast on Apple iTunes and many other places where podcasts are found. It's now up to date and there are more than a thousand episodes. Leave us a review and a star rating because there are more than a thousand episodes. But they only review us based on the political ones. Moving on to issue three. Crisis on the horizon. Leak reveals a major red flag inside Coinbase in amid wild Bitcoin and Ethereum crypto price swings. Yes, they've stopped the affiliate program at Coinbase. They're no longer paying users to recommend them as a very popular startup strategy. Josh Shigala, what about Coinbase and the sudden stoppage of the affiliate program? Yeah, it's always tricky to know where some of these companies put their liquidity sometimes as we saw with Celsius, as we saw with 3-Hours Capital. And I'm not saying this is what Coinbase did, but seems pretty weird that a company with so much liquidity would have issues in this bear market. I get a feeling they fell for that lunar trap or something like that, something weird. I don't know, or they had money in Celsius or something. I don't know. Something smells fishy. I don't understand how Coinbase can be having liquidity issues. They're just far too successful in terms of the amount of liquidity they should have. To pull this one, but maybe they don't need affiliates when no one's buying. I don't know. Maybe they've got more customers in America than they need. Maybe there's no customers left. Maybe they're on the market. The servers are too tired already. We don't want to get more servers. Martin Wishmeyer, is there trouble at Coinbase? They're shutting down the affiliate program. I don't know Thomas. I used to refer a lot of people to Coinbase back in the days. People asked me, where can I buy Bitcoin? I just sent them to Coinbase. And I stopped doing that a long time ago. Why? Because Coinbase gradually turned to shit Coinbase. They were pushing all these useless coins turns out now that there was some insider trading going on. People had knowledge of what coins they would list. And then make a shit out of money on it for themselves. I think the real reason they stopped this affiliate program is because nobody any longer uses it any longer. I can't honestly refer newbies to Coinbase because they'll end up buying shit coins. And they'll totally, because they really have to look for Bitcoin in between all those other coins that are listed. And I think that's a real problem. People no longer want to refer people to Coinbase. And yeah, I don't know if they have any liquidity problems. I cannot believe that they have. But it wouldn't surprise me if they got stung by some scummy defy Ponzi and then Luna. And then yeah, I don't care. I don't use them anymore. I don't recommend them. I stopped using the affiliate program like years ago. They had this earned program too where you could like earn some shit coins which could then immediately switch back to Bitcoin and then try to cash them out. But it's an easy app. It's a good company in a way was. But now I'm not so sure. You know, there's always every week there's some new bad things coming out. So I hope they get their act together. And then turn into a professional Bitcoin only company again. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Now, go now. Ben Arck, maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe every man, woman, child on earth already has a Coinbase account. So there's no more reason to market or advertise. This is a positive decision given that light. I think let's let the bear market play out. With Coinbase, I think we should assume at some point it's been hacked. We should assume that it's held some sketchy asset which has done some funky stuff and they've lost value. We should assume that they've tried to use some of those assets which they have on their balance sheet to do something funky and they've probably lost it. So we should assume that it's fractional reserve and the the amount of money which they say they have they probably don't have. And then this is something which has been shaken out just by this bear market and then let just let the bear market play out with Coinbase. Always reminds me of that Morrissey song which Morrissey wrote about Satch which would die. And it's just like when will you die? When will you die? And it's kind of like that. You start there watching it thinking when you're going to die Coinbase, when you're going to die. Why are you in a bend? We should start one. Dan, Eve, more doom and gloom for Coinbase. Surely Coinbase won't die. Oh, Coinbase got a lot of haters but at the same time like like Martin said like back in the day it was the easiest way to just shut people to Coinbase. I didn't even do it. I never did it with the referral link but just to say if you want to buy Bitcoin you know you can go onto Coinbase and it's kind of nice and easy. They've taken on some crazy ass shit coins and people have been burned but ultimately I don't think it's constructive for Coinbase to fail and hopefully they probably have been hacked. They probably have done some stupid stuff but I'd like to see them survive purely because of the fact that they're a Bitcoin company. They were a Bitcoin initially just Bitcoin they did have shit coins. But it's not good for the ecosystem for the more these titans fall the more even though it's not Bitcoin the more it reflects badly on Bitcoin. The affiliate programs specifically they've said that it's just in the US right. So maybe that's something to do with regulation rather than rather in profit and loss. I'm not sure. I mean obviously there's probably going to be share that shares down 80% from when they've floated so there's going to be some shareholder pressure to tighten the reins a bit. Stop spending as much but there's obviously competition for in places like Stryk who want to do their 0% spread fee sort of thing so they do have a lot of competition but at the same time we're in a bear market right but there's something we didn't have really hugely in the last bear market. Now first thing is that well we had the last bear but first thing is that people have still got sell so it's not just about people buying Bitcoin people are still selling and they still make money on the spread of Bitcoin right. So that's so even though there's people dumping for example and not as many people buying and pumping they're still going to make money on the on the spreads and second of all loads of people I know around the world be included paid in stable coins. What you do is stable coins you have to cash in for normal normal like money and what do you do you make a huge spread on it. So like pay chunks, people who are getting paid all these different decentralized communities that are paying people in stable coins they've got to cash out in some way into real fear into real shit going. So the coinbase is still making money on that spread so I don't know I don't think it's as bad as the doom and gloom sort of side. I think it's more just kind of general trimming down they can see a bit of a multi-year bear market or you know a winter coming in but at the same time they're just trying to tighten the reins make sure that they're they remain profitable and yeah as much as people want to see them for you know at the end of the day you don't think you don't have to go like you think about like this right like you don't have to go and buy the shit going you can go on Coinbase and just buy Bitcoin you don't go into a supermarket and go oh they sell carrots I don't like carrots you know I'm not going to buy anything else I don't like them because they sell carrots. No no no then the difference the difference is if you come into a supermarket and everywhere you look there's fucking carrots everywhere and you're just there for a Mars bar and you really have to dig through the carrots to find that one single Mars bar then I would not recommend that super market and that's the case with Coinbase try finding the Bitcoin between all the other listings just saying you can't it's not that that black or white you know there is like that is true but I do like carrots everywhere I do like the analogy that shopping at Coinbase is like trying to find a Mars bar party in a carifest yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah moving on to the exit question is Coinbase too big to fail even if they got hacked even if they bought a shit coin even if they run out of money Coinbase will be bought by Goldman Sachs and everyone will be fine Josh Shagala yes or no Coinbase too big to fail sadly yeah yeah I agree with with that I don't I hope they don't fail because you know they haven't really right they've they've they've been a solid company throughout thick and thin they haven't you know like yeah they've they've done shit like given IRS a whole lot of things but that's usually because the government's forced their hand and if they want to keep operating they have to comply and and yeah I mean I I hope they survive so I don't really have a gripe with Coinbase I've never used them because but you know I think yeah I don't think I don't hold any mouse against it and I think rich bear too big to fail well you know I hope they don't go out of business but I've had some terrible support issues with them so I wouldn't use them or I wouldn't recommend anybody to use them but yes as I think Dan pointed out if a Bitcoin company fails that's bad because it reflects on the entire industry so no I hope they don't fail and somebody will maybe FTX or the other company will buy it you know the company that buys everything it's like a buy and large just from a walley you know the the only company left but no they'll they'll they'll be around don't worry about it in the future all restaurants are Taco Bell Ben Arck will Coinbase survive I don't think it does reflect on the industry as long as people know that Bitcoin is in Coinbase which was you know has been the problem in the past that people have thought and Mark Gox was Bitcoin I think Greenchilly is correct in the chat when he said that you know Brian is a bad actor he's a bad actor and ultimately when it comes to them having a bailout whether they're bought by a big company then the big company's going to look at their assets going to look at their debts and you know what they owe to their customers and if their assets are far smaller than their debts which they owe to people and then their reputation is tarnished enough and there's plenty of other good choices out there you know crack into good choices as far as I'm concerned there's plenty of good exchanges out there like like for example there's a great exchange like you which is more transparent on the way it keeps its funds so it could fail and it should fail if you know it's assets far out way sorry it's debts far out way the assets it actually has on its balance sheet Dan Eve Kenneth fail Ben is bucking the trend here oh it's did everything can fail no matter how big so I think it definitely it definitely can fail and my team would be to it like if it does fail I can see that Sam Bankman Fried will be like just gobble it up like it like anything else so depending on how bad the situation is since he bailed out they bailed out Celsius for your ex and block fire and block fire yeah so he's on he's on a straight there right there's some of the biggest players in the game and anyone any company you know can still fail regardless of how big they are and you know it's that all saying the fact is the bigger they are the harder they fall so you know I just hope that if it does fail then they don't it doesn't screw you know the ecosystem and and put a dampener on Bitcoin because of as Ben pointed out people making that that kind of mismatch between or thinking that Coinbase is Bitcoin you know they're synonymous because they are one rather than you know Coinbase is a retailer of Bitcoin if you could call it retailer people might think that Coinbase is Bitcoin but the answer is no Coinbase will not fail they'll just be bought by someone else moving on to issue five the New York Yankees are paying their employees in Bitcoin you can now choose to take part of your salary in Bitcoin in the state of New York with one of the biggest and oldest baseball teams ever we have a panel of baseball fans before us let's go to Martijn Richmer are you excited that the New York Yankees baseball team is accepting Bitcoin and giving it to their employees now I'm probably on the side of the phone so we don't really you know we we we play soccer here we don't do baseball so I have no relationship to baseball but the whole article read a bit like advertisement for a company exchanging money to Bitcoin for the players so and you can do that on just about any exchange nowadays so you know you don't have to be a New York Yankees to DCA your way into the to the fork new fortunes just set up your your monthly auto reoccurring auto purchase of Bitcoin and you'll be doing exactly the same without having to play baseball so no I was just netfatorial did I pay you to put this article in Thomas as they said on South Park if you're in then we're all in Matt Davins in he's drinking the urine no I just I just like the Yankees I think it's a major thing because it's the Yankees I also think it's funny that it's happening in New York which was so critical and negative about Bitcoin with the Bit license it just kind of throws me a bit Dan Eve how about them Yankees they've won so many world series what a class organization now accepting Bitcoin well I think the idea is the idea is kind of you know cool for them right whilst everyone's like waffling in like 9.7% inflation and not knowing how to get from one paycheck to the next the Yankees again well I could take a small portion of my paycheck and Bitcoin why not you know that's uh they you know they've this fair to do that um it's just said that we're not in a situation where uh you know the the general economic sits in I mean is that people can save a bit more normal people can put something Bitcoin you know the average person who's a from a street cleaner to a to a uh I was going to say to a road sweeper that doesn't leave much in between um but you know the average person those are the only two jobs street sweepers and road cleaners that's your future son that's it or or a New York net Yankees player you can either swing a bat or sway the broom um but uh yeah so it would it would be nice if the the currently economic climate meant that more more um more people were able to save like fear money let alone you know to get into Bitcoin and take that slot bit of gamble because what do they care if you know the 10% of their wage they buy in Bitcoin and it goes up or down you know they're they're they're living very healthy and happily um whereas for someone else who doesn't know whether they're going to be able to make rent for the next week it's you know that makes it a bit more of a uh a difficult decision point right and and also um what employees are going to want to put their staff through that risk right if you're employing a lot of um low salary people you almost don't want to give the option because if Bitcoin goes down then you know your staff are going to be able to press because they've you know part their their wages and uh but the weirdest thing is is this thing did i just did i read something like they can get their their portion of their wages in Bitcoin but they can't send any Bitcoin to the platform or take it off the platform it's basically a black hole where they pretend to have the Bitcoin like that's that's how i that's how i understand it new york dig enables to be playing Bitcoin well well but they can't send it there they can't send it out and all they can do is sell it like it just seems like it seems a bit strange it sounds like an ETF uh but just not quite an ETF yet yeah shagallah the Yankees are also letting their players and staff take their salaries in lottery tickets um why not Bitcoin you know the thing is exactly what you said and you stole the words out of my mouth um that uh you know the bit license i just as the new york because i don't know much about the new york Yankees all i know is george kastanza works there and uh and that um that the bit license i know do they have a bit license now how do they do this how do they do this magic ah that's how they do it they don't actually sell Bitcoin they just allow them to buy some sort of weird derivatives that and then sell it again or something so they can't actually have of the Bitcoin oh new york i mean to be the heart the financial hub of the world and just to to basically put the new the new economy into bondage so you can save the old economy is just disgusting and i don't know why uh or you know uh coin desk has their big events there in new york and stuff we should just ignore new york fully and i'll write and let it rot sorry new york Yankees uh the new york Yankees are a championship baseball team with 27 championships the most in the major leagues they're also one of the highest payroll teams uh paying more than 214 million dollars for their team actually looks like the highest here above the mets at 194 and the dodgers at 197 so the Yankees are both a rich team and they have the most championships in baseball Ben arc now their employees and staff can buy Bitcoin although it sounds like it's in some kind of black box in the state of new york but still the Yankees the Yankees i'll have to reread the article but i'm pretty sure it's that they can uh that they can send them money out to an external hardware wallet so i'm not a totally external wallet sorry so i'm not sure is it is like fully wrapped up and locked and if it is then that that can that sucks um but i think it's you know if if they can actually get access to the Bitcoin and then hold the Bitcoin themselves i think it's a good thing uh a lot of these new barish types you know they like Bitcoin they like you know these cryptocurrencies and these LFTs and all this shit and they can talk about it in that eyes wide shot parties and they can sound intellectual you can watch some undress interviews and it gives them a talking point uh and they they they love these things they're like yeah i get 20 percent of my salary and Bitcoin yeah i'm stuck it's that's baby um and uh yeah now it's it's i think more and more ways for people to have a part of their salary given to them in Bitcoin and then if you have like you know big press like this whether it's a big you know sports team whatever for a their salary in Bitcoin and i think more companies and more people will say well you know i would like some of my salary in Bitcoin can you please make that available to me company um so like in other bits for example like we have like a business arm and other bits now where uh which is great we're able to employ a lot of the core devs working on other bits um so they can be full-time other bits and um and it's fantastic but then the inevitable question comes up why won't we be paying Bitcoin and it's a bit like well yeah but we haven't got any Bitcoin until we actually start offering products and services and we'll have some Bitcoin and then like when it comes to regulation and stuff how do i tackle all the regulation so actually if we employing somebody if you can outsource that to some company for you know uh for a company which doesn't want to do all the like work and and figure out all the regulation stuff themselves it can make a lot of sense um and uh i i think it's a good thing but you know if if as long as they can actually get the Bitcoin which i'm pretty sure in the article that said they could but i may have misread it literally literally oh sorry just really literally says while users can sell this this sounds insane while users can sell Bitcoin on the platform the ETC cannot be deposited from an external source to NYDG's custody platform or transferred to an external wallet it's niche like game come to a restaurant we'll give you some cake and it's behind the glass screen and then they like throw the cake at the screen and then you just walk out and you go that was fun yeah just just for history though that's how cash app was that's how PayPal was it seems usually when they start a new system like this they don't want to turn on withdraws just in case it's not ready yet so it's very possible they add that the next six months i just i think that's possible no that depressor by the way for you if you are looking to pay your employees or you're an employee that wishes to be paid you can use a bit wage dot com and they've been in the industry forever i don't know who owns them now but uh maybe Thomas do you know you know those guys because they're in California right it's probably FTX that owns them but yeah bit wages classic and they've been doing this a long time what's nice about that you can set up like checking in savings and you can just send like a hundred bucks a month to savings and they'll convert that to Bitcoin and send it where you want it and all that but we're running out of time moving on to issue six Bitcoin is for billions fediment on scaling Bitcoin in the global south a community custody protocol fediment wants to scale the Bitcoin network to a billion users in the global south they've got a chart where second parties and friends of family not financial institutions then there's federation with no single point of trust guardians who are Bitcoiners are likely doing this already and then there's Chomean eCache privacy preserving money all in fediment that they say is going to use community back to lending and challenges include that most of the states listed here have either an absolute or implicit ban on cryptocurrencies Ben Arck what do you think about fediment and their community lending strategy with privacy money and question marks for Africa I think it's I think it's great the people who are working on the project are people who I personally admire like OB and general just immuno's involved in the project and from from from proud and the freeing up and saucer many mint is the freeing up and saucer made fediment which is the the the business arm and then that there's a Chomean eCache in that you have a mint and then say if I send funds to you Thomas and I can use blind signatures to send funds to the mint the mint burn them and then they send them to you and it could be done in like a zero knowledge e way this cryptographic technology has been around since the you know since Chome wrote about in the what late 80s or whatever and I know that he he ran some examples of it during the 90s and the concept now is to try and the problem with the mint is obviously that length it regulated so the idea is that you federate this and you have lots of other mints we sure kind of federate together and then you can have this community coin where it can be very very private it doesn't have like you know on chain costs and the way fediment are doing it it'll be interoperable with lightning network hopefully they've received a funding round seed round nothing is 4.2 million and they're great people the people who are involved in this project and I really do wish them the best but that there are a bunch of problems with you know any federations such as civil attacks and there are some concerns around that but it's it's a very interesting topic which everyone should be aware of I think they're hopefully going to be rolling out usable software in Q1 of 2020 basically it's like how and I we spoke about this in New Yorker we had a panel discussion it was on the lightning network and it's how do people use the lightning network and it came to a real world context like how is how is the best way for me to become involved and me to start using Bitcoin and I mean to start using you know the lightning network and actually you know running a lightning node is pretty hard running opening channels and things is costly currently maybe we'll have technologies like channel factories where I've become less costly in the future but that's not there now however there are all these countries like our server door central public and there's other countries who are starting to use Bitcoin and use lightning network for their payment rails and then the question becomes basically like what's the least shit custodial model you can possibly do and then when it comes to federated charming and e-cash mince that's a nice approach but there are some civil attack concerns where if the federation can get you know coerced then can you really trust the federation there's other proposals like there's the hosted channel proposals which is where you can get some liquidity from a lightning channel and you can use it say if it's from like a big node like L and big for example they can allow people to have some capacity from their hosted channel and you can get instant inbound amount of liquidity and then you have a proof if they rip you off basically which you could take to them and say look you rip me off so that again that's a custodial solution but rather than like a wallet satoshi or a custodial lightning wallet where you don't have any proof this way you kind of get a proof and you can kind of like you can distribute the risk by getting these hosted channels from lots of different nodes I know there's a lot of people in lightning who are very interested in that and it's kind of bubbling where in the background but then there's now this you know federated charming e-cash stuff and it's it's a very interesting the biggest question for me is like why if this is such an easy thing to implement and such a great idea like why isn't it happened already in Bitcoin like why I have an all these cryptographers who of course no David Choms were why is it Choms himself he looked at Bitcoin for a long time like why didn't he think maybe we could use Choms e-cash but a federated model on Bitcoin like why doesn't it exist so far that was my exact question why it doesn't make any sense because he decided to create a shit coin and that obviously failed that was the reason I think he thought he can make more money by peddling another shit coin and then people were not interested anymore I think his reputation was on the line there you know well and originally wasn't there a copyright issue where Choms were couldn't be included because the copyrights and then that got worked out and then like Martin said I do think he had an alt coin yeah Dan Eve your thoughts on federated systems then was muted there was was that was that was Choms was that bit while though while am I getting there completely mixed up no no no no no no no no no no no but I think yeah I think it sounds like really interesting concept you know obviously there's still it's not completely trustless there's still there's a federation right so but there there are trusted community members you know we actually the Guardian so it's kind of it's decentralizing in as best you know the best approach you can so I think it sounds like it's got a lot of promise I think I hope he's done some really good stuff in the past and he's a really great guy and I think yeah it sounds like it sounds like they're onto something here with with Fediment and you know ultimately the the dream like what you know one of the things that attracted me to Bitcoin was initially was the fact that it would give access to the unbanked and you know as Bitcoin's price is risen that's kind of it's kind of excluded these people from from becoming unbanked themselves and being able to to get Bitcoin back into that situation where it's being used for the greater good it's being used to to counter the existing banking system that excludes people and and and ostracizes them segregates them or whatever for whether it's a political reason or or because of whatever community things going on and I think it's it's good that we have something that's going to be countering that and helping Bitcoin grow in a place where it's most required and most needed and also most you know easily able to to to keep people away from the traditional banking system which is like so many people down well if we can't trust the federation we'll have to trust the klingons jasha gola your thought on federated blockchains I mean I'm not the biggest fan of federated blockchains I do think they they can centralize because they start I mean I've only got I've only got the example of something like federated proof of stake chains so I don't quite understand the security profile of it as much I know that for instance eos what ended up happening with them is that the federations just start voting each their mates in and then they can collude and then they get bigger and bigger and then I'm not sure you know I have to look into it further I think it's always interesting like I said before it's all experimentation anything that can make Bitcoin scale is definitely worth a look because I think putting all our eggs on the lightning network while lightning is very promising I think we need competition in space we need more more solutions to scale and if this is another way then let's let's have a look from a technical perspective make benefit because you know a bit more what's if block block streams liquid is federated right what how does this how does it block this differ from say absolutely that's one big federation so with fediment you could potentially spin up your own federation and then so do you you're not reliant upon block streams liquid network you could you could quite easily sort of spin a community coin up yourself and then the way fediment they're doing it what the way fediment hope to do it is that if somebody comes along and they're not part of that trawmene cash system then they can use a lightning transaction send the funds and then the person who then received the funds using some atomic swap stuff like you will be like the trawmene cash but it just it's so it means that you can have a more kind of integrated so if you imagine like federated liquid a liquid federation a separate liquid federation like multiple ones of them they wouldn't be able to kind of like send funds between them as easily as you could potentially do on this and then currently in liquid we see that it is a very like big just one patient but then I mean the argument would come well you know with a liquid federation you've got you know a bunch of signatories who are quite well known there's enough of them and they're vetted enough that you know they're not going to get a civil attack whereas if it comes to like a small community and saying you know I know Swansea City Council Swansea area or something and we have our own Shawmean eCash federated minting system like would that that would be a lot easier to kind of civil attack so and you could potentially like you know they could do some shady things and you would be out of your control and then it'd be easier for them to do that so that would be the argument I suppose against a small smaller federations but I think to be honest Josh I think your experience in the you know Ethereum world of federations and whatever improve with stake federations I think it's very relevant because a lot of this these ideas are kind of been taken from some of those you know all coin tests in that scenarios and then they're trying to try to make this try to make this work I think the ultimate thing is like if you've got countries wanting to use Bitcoin and Lightning like do you want them all using Chiba wallet ideally they're all going to run their nodes and then they're all going to make channels but that's currently very expensive that will get easier and that will get cheaper however for now like what's the least shit custodial solution and something which is kind of censorship resistant I'm a big fan of the hosted channel solution I think it's a little bit more kind of almost like transparent like you get to I think who was a crypto cleanse had a nice point in the chat there he said risk is voluntary personal decision and I think in a hosted channel kind of environment that that's what it is like you're picking where you want your hosted channels to be and it's still a custodial solution but you know it's not within the interests of those big node operators for them to rip you off because you can you can go be very public about them ripping you off from nodes and you say I think you can get these big lightning nodes can also get yield for offering those services as well whereas with a Chormy and federated Chormy and eCache system like I don't know that this is a similar tax stuff which worries me personally yeah yeah it's always has been and I met David John a couple of times throughout the years and you know I think I think he's one of these geniuses who suffered a little bit from paranoia and stuff and and sadly that sort of stopped his work in a lot of this it's been it's been a tricky forum but yeah I think yeah anything we can look at in terms of this stuff but at the end of the day this is why Bitcoin was invented in terms of how do you you know have this solve some of this these issues in terms of the the the bezzanine generals problem or Byzantine generals problem and these sorts of things happen over again when you're looking at second layers because uh you know there's there's everything that's old is new again everything that's new is looking at the old stuff and and so it's very rarely something that's totally new Bitcoin the Bitcoin white paper was one of those things and ever since then it's just been trying to look at old technologies and how to fit that on top of this to make it scale but and I think yeah looking at this might be might be interesting I think ultimately it's worth remembering that you know the the root goal board machine of legacy finance like we could do that and we could do it better than they could do it with bodgie hackie federated e-cash chome and e-cashments and always host the channels or whatever and it's like how do we just find that now how do we find the best solution out of though out of those baskets of different solutions but we can easily replace what currently exists which is you know that's great you know when and now it's the next thing is how what's next like how do we make people to be able to engage with the Bitcoin network in the least custodial most non-custodial way in a way that's not feasible currently yeah and uh and you know trying to that's a scale it's always a scale and just like um that risk is a scale so if you're going from full custodian like coinbase or what we do at bautoro all the way to total total security on your own but then in the middle there there has to be a middle ground because there is a useful reason why having centralized certain systems is handy especially for scale because switching info in a database is super fast and efficient so having a custodial some sort of ring signature I don't know some cryptographic magic uh to you know I always knew multi-seag is the answer to something here I'm just not sure what it is martin weissmayer your thoughts on federated cash um back when I was a student that we had our did a first internet startup we were the only place you could get decent internet in Amsterdam at the time was in the science park and our neighbor was David Sean with his didgy cash company so all the uh facts machines because yes back then even though we had the interwebs we still used the facts machine and the coffee machine the the soda machine and the snacks machine they all worked using uh e-cash so we had this like little card chip payments and from what I understood those digital coins they're actually coins they're like you know this is a signature thing they're like coins so there's no real custodian there if you lose your card you lose your coins that is like they're gone um with uh with the issues I think that didgy cash faced at the time and one of the reasons it failed was that you couldn't just have several issuers of didgy cash it would be one point of issuing where all the coins were issued so back then they had some uh I don't know do we do we Louis little weird bank in the in the US uh I forgot the name but they were like it was a very small weird bank and they changed money so didgy cash that was the only point of entry in the system and from what I understood is this is this is like this this is the way it works so if you have like JP Morgan and they won't start using it you would have JP Morgan cash and then the fat would have their own cash so you would have fat cash JP Morgan cash that would be not be compatible so having bitcoin solve this issue for me that's like wow that's the missing link on this what 30 year old system and it makes perfect sense the only thing is how are we going to solve this because um right now we okay we need a custodian and a trussed third party and yes we can make sure that they are trusted because otherwise they will be shot so they will it keeps will keep everybody honest but it's not we shouldn't really have to trust them so I would like to see a sort of like automated no trust like smart way where we can like swap from lightning or from on chain directly onto this federated e-cash and then I think that is definitely the solution for for for for countries going all bitcoin back because the transactions are super fast but there's no yeah there's there's no way of tracing transactions through the different payments meaning that they can't trace it like on the bitcoin blockchain it's really like coins in your pocket they're like really like digital coins and this is what appeals to me it's it's digital cash in its purest form so yes I hope this will work I don't think it's like a replacement for lightning I think it would just be another solution you know like there's like many things that that will work and the market will decide what will work where and the the the capacity of payments was really good the anonymity was really good with e-cash so I suspect that will be the same with this this shaman e-cash bitcoin I don't know I forgot fed fedie mint or something is that the brand or is it is fedie mint called the comp is that the brand doing it or is it free to free to our resource project which is made the software stack and there's some great people involved and that is is mini mint okay I think I tried mini mint or I think a year ago or something and or half a year ago and it was all still in the terminal and it it came a big warning that you will lose your bitcoin if you continue so I I did try it a bit but I was a bit hesitant I thought this is very very early I will wait for the next version and then spin it and give it another try but I think yes I will I'm totally on board here I think this is this is fantastic so yes having used a dt cache or e-cash for four years for four years we used it never had a problem with it the only thing that can happen was that one server that like was the brand down and then then then there were issues communicating but for most of the time it worked and we never had security incidents they were toyed around with the the head of sort of development kit at the time where you could like build e-cash or ditch test compatible applications that was really simple so I think if they if they just copy paste that into the new ced feed mint compatible system that's like you know I don't see it not succeed you know but yes yes totally on board there I like new experiments and we don't need to it's theory and block change to do something new on Bitcoin right I it sounds like an interesting problem will have projects and we'll have to see how it goes before we're quickly we're running out of time I just want to thank everyone at meorka block chain days we had a great time at the conference maybe just really quickly Ben what was your favorite part about the conference I know you were running a lot of workshops they were building a little bit coin ATMs right there in the room yeah that that the LMPOS the the point of sale ATM device thingy I think the best part was it was the first time at a conference where I ran a workshop and it was predominantly women during the workshop and that was cool you know when uh often these these the concoverses it's all dudes and there's one or two women and so it was actually weird walking in there I was like I felt like I was in some sort of Star Trek alternate reality all of a sudden microchips and wires and ben at the round it all in this herium uh of followers and uh and uh and building cool stuff and an epically technical scale it was like that's an epically technical and then when I sat down and did it it was awesome what Ben had set up was the ability to sort of IKEA style put an ATM together with a really simple system man I was so good it was so good there was there was the same in Miami you know you do go at any time of the conference there will be a big table lots of soldering irons you know little smoke coming off components just about everywhere and there will be bandwidths disciples all listening and he wouldn't be like pointing it out and I think it's fantastic yes this is the way you know to build stuff I think yeah Dan Eve you were sick for most of the conference what was your favorite part? Oh yeah completely right right off one of the days um with uh with strep throat but then I managed to I'm uh it wasn't my highlight well my highlight in personal achievement was that I managed to have a little sing song on the on the roof which was which was always which was lovely to entertain a bit um but uh the similar talks are really quite interesting on the on the the second day I only got like half of the Saturday because I was pretty poorly um but I like the FIR the NFT panel actually and how uh how I was very surprised I was most shocked the most shocking part of the event was how flat had turned around I thought he's going to be on the NFT panel and flat uh uh it was like it was like oh actually yeah now that you can put them on bitcoin uh okay yeah um but no there was some really interesting really interesting talks and um I think uh I second I think it was just said earlier about the fact that it's not a ball market and therefore it wasn't one of these really kind of like hyped like pricey hyped conferences it was pure bitcoin talk and bitcoin and liberty and freedom and it was just really interesting it wasn't really um uh you know uh over what's the word you know overbait with like shilling and stuff like that it was just call down to earth people all chatting and talking about bitcoin and and um and yeah I think it was a really really cool conference and if you do get the opportunity to go next year um then yeah check it out it's mjorkablockchaindays.com but fantastic conference Chris and um and co an Andrei and co great organizers um brilliant event and yeah thoroughly thoroughly thoroughly recommend it to to you know to go um and and it was a nice mixture as well of technical and non-technical I think that's what I like about some of these you know it's a really good presentations like I'd miss Ben's workshop but um you know there was uh there was stick as well for a stick from satoshi labs and um so it was a nice mixture of um uh I really sad actually I missed uh Thomas from Electrum's talk as well because he did a really good one last year um but yeah definitely real nice kind of contrast of of hardcore technical stuff and also some some you know learner stuff as well so and I'm always I'm always learning I'm always one you know I'm I'm a beginning at every table um so yeah I think it's definitely great conference and get around there and I also managed to um I don't know why I'm bringing I'm bringing this up but we're here a little little story so when we we did I did eventually go out on the on the night the we were out into the bathroom for the morning of something couldn't couldn't get in anywhere so I thought why don't I do something crazy some big something Bitcoiny and just like jump in the river so I jumped in or jumped in the port so I jumped in the port and I'm all so I can wear and I was like cool now we can all go home no no no no no somehow we managed to find somewhere that was like and forward the morning and then had to dance like for two hours in trousers and a shirt and shoes they're all so I can wear but it was still fun and it was all samber they were fireworks inside and uh get your ass in the vlog Jamie Okadai's next year Josh Shagala what was your favorite part of the conference uh all of it it was so good it was so so good uh I gotta say the two conferences that are well worth looking at um is the uh is LeBicConf the Latin American Bitcoin conference always epic and great uh and and LeBicConf uh sorry and Mallorca blockchain days uh it's really a great conference crisp and and co here bus gin and Mike and and the rest uh they they put on such a great great show every time and it's it's it's it's always unlucky for them because they seem to put it on always like a bear markets or during covid or you know poor guy I don't I don't mean to laugh it's it's really you know it's very stressful to be an organizer for one of these events and uh and um but it's well worth and if you're gonna go do the experience ticket because all getting together and just hanging out on a boat afterwards uh and talking Bitcoin talking philosophy talking uh solutions instead of problems all the time uh finding solutions for big big societal issues uh is is really cool and so yeah definitely make it long I totally enjoyed the talks a lot of really really good core people that that built Bitcoin in all the way from the early days uh were there so uh yeah there's not many people and I like those conferences I can't stand conferences like Miami where there's just the thousands and thousands of people and all these new so-called Bitcoin experts come out of the woodwork that have you know found it last week and suddenly experts especially in the VC space you know the shark tank guys all of a sudden everywhere the Bitcoin guy and I'm like dude you know what we who we go away you know and uh but these sorts of little conferences are really nice there's so many uh really core people that have made this thing what it is now and uh were worth catching up with chilling out with treat having it be with um yeah awesome we're running out of time martine whispered you have a prediction or a story of the week yeah I like Miami but uh no prediction um story of the week I will have a Miami like event in Amsterdam in October so uh that's going to be fun and I think Ben will be speakers I'm not I'm not 100% sure but I thought I saw Ben on the list somewhere so it will definitely be worthwhile not I'm not sure if he will be like just speaking or also be bringing kids and soldering irons but it will be worth it nevertheless so yeah that's that's not really a story of the week but uh we can spend some more so Ben art should we predict that you will be at this Amsterdam Bitcoin event looking forward to it man we're going to bring the fucking ruckus so like with it with the Miami one there were lots of people went to my name conference and like Martin like you were there and amazing and you were like you were you were doing here for general fights you're doing the incredible uh sell stuff and you're talking to all those people and I had a lot of value I say conference but I think for a lot of people walk around that conference and then there's some nice sound bites about people who want to go to the first stage and they could see people working on these three episodes projects they're like building stuff and we have workshops and all those things and then they felt okay well this is this is this is the Bitcoin and kind of used to and the one I'm following you know um uh and keep in an eye on it on Twitter whatever and um and uh we hope to just bring more of that to the Amsterdam one and I think being in Europe as well like the Europeans are more kind of make a centric so I do hope and I know that um oh Christ who's the guy runs the Bitcoin conference no that's Chris is me or currently uh anyway I know that the people who've run the Bitcoin uh uh Miami conference I know they're very keen on rolling out more of that like more workshop hardware hacking like free and open source and actually they were very good for the Miami conference in that they gave if you have like a free and open source project you're working on a Bitcoin free and open source project getting contact with them you can get yourself free ticket um and uh they're very hospitable and uh uh yeah so the more they want to embrace that more which is which is good news in my opinion um and I'm really looking forward to Amsterdam Dan Eve prediction or story of the week I'm gonna go uh I'm gonna end on a sour note here and I've been thinking about it more and more and I reckon crazy man musk is gonna do some sort of ethereum play and uh so my prediction is that he's gonna yeah he's gonna he's gonna start shilling ethereum or something crazy like that yeah jashigala prediction or story of the week um I don't I mean he just he says he doesn't understand smart contracts which I don't understand why he wouldn't understand anyway um uh yeah uh where we've we've got uh we've got all the uh the smart contracts for the ib-c-o which is an initial bonding curve uh that we're building to release the first stablecoins s-euro and backing it with uh with crypto to start with and then figuring out the gold situation after that um yeah it's coming so i'm really excited so next step is to get those contracts audited by third parties and um yeah it's just exciting seeing tech being built and yeah so check us out at thisdandard.io or follow me on twitter it was great to see everybody at meorka blockchain days there are even people that talk to me who said they watch this show so thanks to everybody who watches world crypto network and mad bitcoins and give us a thumbs up down below and push the subscribe button and uh sorry we took last week off but we're back this week so there you go i wish you never should though until next time bye