The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Josh Agala from the standard dot IO. Good morning, everybody. Oh, often, who in the morning, wherever you're up? Ben Arck from Ellen Bitts seems to have dropped off the call. Satoshi's waiting. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the world crypto network moving on to issue one issue one Bitcoin price falls 54% from its high. The world's largest cryptocurrency, Bitcoin fell from to 31,075 dollars on Monday, a 10% drop from Sunday. Bitcoin's prices fallen 54% from its record high of 67,802 in November. Why is the price of Bitcoin falling? Well, the price of Bitcoin did return to 30,000 dollars with other currencies also surging as well as the market seems to be recovering today. Perhaps Bitcoin fell because cryptocurrency, Luna crashes to zero dollars as USD continues to slide further away from its dollar peg. And we've also heard that crypto.com has been reversing traders, Luna transactions from May 12th. So if you made a lot of money yesterday on crypto.com, you might not have made it today. Joshua Shigalo, what's going on with the Bitcoin markets? And with this crazy, Luna token. I've been warning people for a very, very long time about Luna. You know, I created Voltoro after the Mt. Gox collapse. And it was actually a string of different fails in the Bitcoin space where people were running off with other people's money and basically going, oh, we got hacked or no transparency. So we don't know what's going on. And we saw the same thing. I saw the same thing happening with stablecoins. Like there's a real need for stablecoins. They're really, really interesting technology, particularly decentralized stablecoins. I think they're very, very fascinating. And I have a very bullish on them. Let's say that. Now, just for normal people here, let's go through just a real basic reason why you would need a stablecoin. And you're out there trading on the exchange and you want to sell to dollars, but maybe you're not on an exchange like coin base that just lets you go to a bank account, maybe on a decentralized exchange. In that case, you would want to trade your money into a stablecoin, something that's pegged at a dollar so that your funds would not go up or down. And you could get off of the roller coaster. The only problem is Josh, when they do these decentralized stablecoins or if this one was an algorithmic stablecoin, what's the difference between saying algorithmic stablecoin like Luna and something we might be more familiar with like Tether? Yeah, so there's other use cases for stablecoins, like not only the trading one, but I noticed we've run a Bitcoin only business now since 2014. We launched in 2015 and really for that whole, most of that time, people would invoice us in Bitcoin and then later when Ethereum came on the market, people started invoicing sometimes in Ethereum and sometimes in some random shit coin. But very, very after around 2020, everyone started invoicing us in stablecoins. And I remember like, why do you want this Tether stuff? Why do you want that? And it was very simple that it's a lot easier to invoice in USD or something like that. And then you get that and your accountant loves you because they don't need to do much work. They know how much you invoice and how much you got. And you do any conversions or try to keep up with the volatility. And then, and then you can buy the speculative asset like Bitcoin with that. So you invoice that deal with taxation. It's very easy. And then you buy the speculative asset to Bitcoin. And that's really a massive part of this game. And in terms of what the differences are, so Tether is basically, it came out of the promise, which is also false, of you have a bank account. I put one dollar in the bank account and I create one ERC 20 and I give it to you and that represents all. And you can always come back and grab that dollar and I'll burn the ERC 20 and give you the dollar. The turns out though, that billions of these, these Tethers got made and we don't know how much is in there. I even talked to the auditor that got fired before he could audit the thing. There's all sorts of like weird jiggery pokery going on shady stuff like bank accounts getting frozen. I'm not telling them moving jurisdictions and this nut. And they actually made some pretty good moves because they bought Bitcoin's dip. And, and then the Bitcoin cruise up to like, what was it? Like 60K or whatever it was at its high. So they actually made up pretty well. At least with the Tether, they have a bank account theoretically. We don't know what's in there. But what's different about Luna? Do they have a bank account? No, so Luna is what they call an algorithmic stablecoin and it comes after a long line of these tries where they're trying to peg one token to a fiat and and and then try to algorithmically do that with nothing, no real value. So what they had Luna, they had their Luna token, which is their governance token, which is just fluff. It's just made for nothing. And and they're and they're token the US terror USD or terrible USD as I like to call it. And and basically what they would do is they'd always promise a swap for $1 over this for $1 of Luna. And the thing was, so if Luna dropped down, it didn't in price, it didn't matter. It would just basically print more Luna that smart contract would basically generate as much as it would be one to one. And so you could always and but what happened is there was a little mini bear hook there and US, US terrible started going down. And then Luna was going down and then the market cap of Luna wasn't enough to cover how many tether that were terrible they were and it just basically went down and down and down and and these the thing is, this is like a Ponzi mechanic in the background because the thing is a Ponzi scheme works like this is very basic. You get in new investors, you get them in you say, I'm going to give you a 20% APY, I'm going to give you a huge APY and what you're actually doing rather than actually getting real value, you're just getting new investors to pay those guys out. They're happy they go, wow, it works. This guy's a genius. He's got a business that gives me 20% and they tell their friends, they then they come around and more people that come in pay the. The thing with what Luna had, they didn't even need the new people coming in, they just printed more up. And we give a whole lot and I mean we can see that Luna lost so much value for them to try and swap one to one. It basically they went in the last days from a few billion to now 6.8 trillion Luna flying around like basically Venezuela said, hey, check out our inflation and you know, Luna went, hey, hold my beer. And printed a whole like trillions of these things so it's it's a total joke. I've been wanting people about it for ages and this is why we started the standard is basically to build a proper stablecoin solution that is truly backed by not only hard assets like gold and silver, but also by real assets, real rare assets that we can't print out of nowhere like Bitcoin and you know, arguably people would say Ethereum as well. Is fairly rare compared to you know something like Luna, which is programmatically not rare. And and people would lock those up into smart contracts and then generate stablecoins from them. So there's a whole lot different. And we can see die for instance was the first one to do a properly I feel where you lock up ether. And and you generate die. And so there's always more value locked up the problem with them is there's there's multiple problems. I won't go into them now that I feel but but still you have actual value that they can't print out of nowhere backing the underlying backing of of the stablecoin. So you have this volatile asset and you can borrow up to like 50% of that value that's locked up. Yeah, here we go. And you know, I won't talk about pegging because you know if you will get the brits get really funny about that word. But but yeah, anyway, it's it's really sad. I'm so so sorry for all those people that lost money. This is billions of dollars. There's really people suffering right now. So I don't want to make too much light of it. But really the thing is even even just just as recently so many people were saying hey, buy more, buy more. And even last night I was like maybe I should even just buy them because it's just collapse so much. I know that psychology of the market is so like it'll go back up. The problem is if you really look at the mechanic. It just prints and prints and prints and prints like nothing like men, so should say. Like crazy. And like I said, there's now six trillion of these things floating around and and you know, by and answers, they listed them and. And you know, this was a top 10 coin like this was a huge project. And I kept on telling people this is a snowball mechanic. This is a Ponzi mechanic. Be wearing the ball. Oh, you don't need why you're building. You should build the standard on on Luna. And I don't want to touch that field. Like I really don't. It's it's not good. It's not well thought out. I mean, maybe it's well thought out for the scammers. But I don't even feel like they're scammers that think of it. They're just literally so. So dumb that they don't see that. That's what I hope. That's what I hope. I many would say that's not true. But you know, I just recently I've heard the person that invented the thing. Do Kwan is his name. Or something like that. So if I miss pronounced your name there. But um, he you know, he said, oh, we're going to start buying 10 billion dollars worth of Bitcoin to back. So I think he saw it coming. He saw the writing on the wall. You can't have a snowball system backing your stable coin. You're so called stable coin. It just doesn't work. And we saw it popped, you know, four days ago. So it's really unfortunate. Well, you have to be careful with that attempt to find the bottom there. Josh. There was a rapper recently. I forget his name. But he put something like 2.5 million dollars into Luna trying to find that bottom this morning. He woke up. It was worth a thousand dollars. Oh, it's just absolutely crippling. And we do have some more information on this. Thanks to the excellent YouTuber. Coffee Zilla who did a great report on this. Like Josh said, the creator of Luna Terra coin was do Kwan who is an anonymous person. But they found out later. He also tried to start three other stable coins. All of which failed. Not as spectacularly. And recently he was on the internet. They had a theory where just like Josh is saying, if you had a billion dollars, you could come into this product on one side, crash the market. So the other side can't respond and get more than a billion dollars. They even speculated you could get 50 billion dollars. Instead of reacting to this appropriately, a dough Kwan was egging on the internet saying something like billionaires in my feed. If you see this, please try. And you never want to do that. You never want to say to the internet come get me or something like that because there is someone out there that's bigger. And no one knows why Tara Luna went down these days. But it could have been some pissed off billionaire trying to make his his 50 billion. Yeah, I mean, he said stated in another interview that he wanted to be the largest holder of Bitcoin under Satoshi. And that was his goal. So yeah, maybe he was a scammer. Maybe he legitimately wanted to create a very valuable product that actually created so much value that he could do that. Accomplish that goal. But seems to me after, you know, I mean, I could blatantly see the scam and there's plenty of podcasts of me talking about it. And that's one of the main reasons I started, you know, the standard with the team at Bautoro. Because of this reason that all these stable coins, they're not, they're either centralized or their algorithmic and they're going to fail. And we really wanted to look at everything that was being done in the decentralized space with locking up real value, but also try to tie in the goal thing. I mean, we've had 5000 years. Gold is really literally the ultimate stablecoin. Yeah, people say it's not that stable. But compared to compared to a lot of crypto projects. It's very stable. And compared to when you compare to the market. And compared to other commodities. So if you compare it to pork belly, weed, corn, all of this stuff, it fluctuates quite well around that. Of course, if you compare it to dollars, there's a whole lot of jigglypogory happening, happening with shorts and paper gold and all this nonsense. So, but if you compare physical to physical commodities, it's fairly stable. And it's, you know, it's gone through every nightmare that human conditions thrown at it. If you've gone through a war, your fear, at any time there's a war, the, the fiat of that country is absolutely decimated the savings of everybody's absolutely definitely decimated. But if you're holding gold, you come out through the war, you're still holding that same value. So it's, it's really, really a strong case for gold. And it's also decentralized. It's mined in a decentralized fashion. There's not one owner of gold. And you can't print it out of nowhere and it gets harder to mine. So I think they work really well together. I don't buy this whole Barry silver thing of drop gold. I don't buy Peter Schiff's thing of big coins crap or crypto's crap. You know, they, they, they're an absolutely amazing pair. They should work together. I've always said that and that's what we're trying. And Ark did something happen to Bitcoin did consensus break did one one nine get adopted. Is there a technical reason that the price of Bitcoin is down? So I mean, I mean, first, first I look at the stable coin stuff. I mean, Josh obviously becoming authority on this with the standard. And it's, it's a good credit to him that, you know, a project like this hasn't been rolled out quickly because this is very complicated problem. There's a problem. It should be solved. There's lots of ways of addressing and lots of ways of doing it. And I personally think the way that the standard team is doing is, is perfect that you have a basket of assets as opposed to like make it down and die works very well. And the peg has been kept well. But ultimately you're relying on one asset. So if you have like multiple assets in some sort of baskets that just go Bitcoin to other commodities, then those the ability for it to lose its peg and for those assets to, you know, catastrophically drop in price is removed. That's the whole, you know, can't even bank or proposal, which happened. So I very much. I mean, we need stable coins. People need not only for things like trading where they want to hop in and out of Bitcoin to something which is stable. But more importantly, for meeting with exchange or you want to buy stuff, you want to get you know, much of the world's on subsistence wage. They want to be paid and they want to know that that thing still has value at the end of the month. They don't want to put their trust in governments and they don't want to put their trust in specific private institutions. They do want to decentralize stable coin solution. But but how we get that is I mean, it's still very experimental. There are some great projects like make it down die, which is great. But it is. It's not quite that it's not quite what we need. So I very much applaud the people, you know, people like Josh is working trying to work on solving these problems because the world desperately needs it. And I'm just going for the Welsh pound like I want the Washington pennants movement to be able to create the Welsh pound for us to be able to use it for it to be stable for us to be able to link it to a basket of assets and could even be like assets which are nationally important. So for us, it could be you know, I can sheep on and the price of coal or something, but the. Having a stable, because obviously like the way tether does it, you have this trusted third party and that comes to the whole load of issues. Where you can't actually trust the true true, you're putting your trust in that that third party. So, you know, can you really trust them and they've got this sketchy bank in the middle of nowhere and it's it's not audited properly and they come out with sketchy comments like I'll say that we've always been able to you know. If there's ever been any we've always been able to honor anyone going in and out of tether any one day and it's like well okay I just don't know, like a thin slither of a common people could potentially want to pull out of tether. So then people try and solve these problems and then all these scammy projects come up and they're like yeah we're going to just able to coin and like things like lunar and then they have these weird mechanics we certainly make sense and. Make kind of work until someone with a brain comes along and just figure out a way to exploit it and make a load of money off the back of it and then loads of people you know suffer for that. Whereas you know I love the idea of algorithmic stable coin which isn't controlled by trusted third party but it is something which needs a lot of research a lot of study a lot of a lot of building in order to be able to build this thing which which is reliable and which is safe. And that's I really look forward to stand and to see what what we're building. Just quickly. Just to interject there Ben on the algorithmic side the problem that I see with algorithms controlling a stable coin is that algorithms are generally if they're not if they're very simple and smart contracts are very simple algorithm but you can't really deploy much complexity there. And the trouble with algorithms they can be gained because basically if you if you put throw a bit of liquidity into something and it makes it reacts in some way and as that wave comes back down you maybe throw another and another and another and it just gets bigger and bigger kind of like an army marching on a bridge. As the resonant frequencies you keep manipulating the algorithm because you start to understand there's a pattern there and and as you keep pushing in the same direction and tapping every time it comes back. You can you can start to get a such a resonant frequency that you break the bridge and that's why like armies will have a double step in their march to sort of break that and have some entropy in there. And break that resonant frequency in is it's it's it's it's it's it's is it's die is that that's not algorithmic then because that relies on markets does it keep in the bag or is it algorithmic no so algorithmic show my neatness here which one which one die dying the make it. No, no, no, it's not like I mean someone's sorry that was my mistake I kind of look at that I turned that has been algorithm in that it's you know without a trusted third party have a vault. So it's the market market which builds the disability yeah a lot of people are differentiated between decentralized stablecoin centralized stablecoin and algorithmic stablecoin which could also go into the decentralized stablecoin pool but but because you know it's it's decentralized if it works and like I don't want to say that it'll never work. You know and I like that people are experimenting like this is the whole point of cryptos like let's let's try weird economic theories the problem is they can they they get so complex and people don't understand like I looked at at Lunar Taylor very early on and I saw straight away really clearly that this is going to fail just like Olympus down and just purely because you can see the mechanics there is built on a snowball system it's built on fluff. And and so yeah so just think we'll have like a because I really want like a make it down vault type thing with Bitcoin going in and then some stablecoin being spat out and then the peck being kept out fire you know market arbitrage yeah do you see what's you that with with with Bitcoin is that being built on Bitcoin or so. So so that's what we're working on at the standard but because the smart contracts need a quite complex Bitcoin doesn't have the opportunities like that it doesn't have this the language there to do that now RGB is working on some some cool technology to be able to have more intricate programming in in the lightning network which will be epic. But so what we're looking at doing is anchoring on a layer to on a theorem which is a lot quicker and cheaper than a theorem it has still the secure uses the theorem as a security layer but but basically what we're looking at is bridging across or being able to mint instantly using an Oracle system across to across to the lightning network so that. So that you can mint the coins on the lightning network through RGB and and transfer there because RGB really is the ultimate in terms of like if anybody's used lightning that's what you want to use it's so cool like being up to invoice people upfront is is just so snappy and fast and yeah I mean when I think of the Al Salvador and stablecoin dollar which I I hope is an inevitability that it will eventually will emerge somehow I imagine it's still using the lightning network is his payment rails because it works it makes sense. And everyone knows how to use it and the the and then for them to be able to like subatomic swap in and out of Bitcoin to this stable medium of exchange and be very easy for normal people because they're still using the same wallet they've just happened to have like you know Al Salvadorian cut dollar and Bitcoin in the yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no it's is it's actually fascinating I very much think that the Al Salvadoran experiment actually is is kind of brought a lot of this into like obviously all that this has always been needed within the trading world but it's just so obvious that like you need stability when you're dealing with the exchange and subsistence wages yeah for for normal people like for for weird cryptos we don't care about volatility you get in once you've got it once you're in the in the green enough or in the black as they say in some country you don't care about the volatility anymore like it sort of hurts a little bit but it's it's when you come in and then all of a sudden everything goes down so if you start accepting Bitcoin if I'm a TV salesman and I I sell you a TV for Bitcoin and I need to buy more stock and it tanks it just sucks it's just not going to work so this is the big problem for forever with adoption and and you know we've seen I've seen throughout my time seen Bitcoin and I seen Bitcoin you know being being really slowly taken up but mainly as a speculative asset and enough seeing things like Alipay come out of the woodwork out of nowhere or we chat pay and basically take most of Australia within a couple of years and you start to see stickers everywhere Alipay accepted here or whatever it is like why hasn't Bitcoin done this and that's exactly why it people needs stability they want it there is much as I speak coin Maxi's can say no I just want to touch it's what to touch it yeah yeah what's it like I'm sorry it doesn't work like that the market is what commands what the market wants not you yeah exactly and what about crypto dot com they canceled some trades on May 12th but they gave their users a $10 certificate to make everything better we find with that we're going to give them a pass because they're new exchange Josh is really quick what do you think about crypto dot com canceling those trades I think it's rough I don't think you should cancel trades I think if you did a trade you should take the trade I mean I wish they would cancel my trade some bad trades that I've done it's just not the way you do it in fact I think it's they're stepping really really closely to hot water because if you do that I'm pretty sure it's a suitable offense so I'd be careful and not only that what you do is you open up hand or his box for like you know a whole lot of a whole lot of stuff like you shouldn't do it really you shouldn't come on Ben arc it's no big deal they're just canceling trades when the house wins what's wrong with that the house just needs to keep winning right I mean you know your money's on there within their private system and it's their money it's not your money so you know that's the lesson isn't it is they can do what they want with it and it's just out of good will that all exchanges don't just reverse trades will you nearly you know to benefit their own box and crypto dot com we're just proving to people why they're not going to be should have control of their keys for the vast sum of them on the obviously practically speaking like people need to be able to like trade things on and then hopefully it would drive more traffic away from crypto dot com towards more reputable services where they where they have a history of not reversing trades but it's something which is possible in a centralized exchange is there they can verse trades if they want to Yeah I mean I was under the impression that fortune favors the brave and you would have had to be pretty brave to buy Luna so I don't know you know I don't think I can dump on them anymore the whole media has just been having a field day with the mat day and commercial coming at the peak of cryptocurrency they're all blaming mat day and they're all laughing at mat day like if you had traded like mat day and you would have done this this this but it's always that same thing where they pick a little slice of time and they're like if you bought between now then you lose what if you bought over a long period of any of the last 10 years you would have made tons of money so it's very hard to continue to take their argument at a face value but they do like to keep making it one thing with this whole lunar thing before we move on is that apparently Mike Novigrat's got a massive like I'm not just not just a little one but a massive tattoo of lunar On his thing like only days before it totally shit the bed worse than Amber her like actually are natural real tattoos actually real tattoo yeah it'd be like one of those me like a walk with a moon and it's a full like it's got color and everything right Josh like a yeah it's intense it's intense it's all like Mike's walking around with his failure it's like worse that could be upset could be upset every time he's looking at my mirror he's coming like to start snow for grads you couldn't be me I got a tattoo you know I lost out like the rest of you it wasn't me I didn't do anything I was innocent because he got the tattoo it is funny to see so many people all get into their favorite altcoin whether it's lunar or Ravencoin or Lightcoin or whatever it is everyone has their favorite altcoin and some but now it's your chance to predict against the predictor of predictors the greatest prediction engine in all of Bitcoin it's better than the ballinger bands it's better than the triangles it's better than trading view all these websites the magic eight balls back Josh a call a lot of people are sat out there we had a bit of a recovery rally today will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week I mean we might be heading into a dead cat bounce focus so maybe up a dead cat bounce Ben Arck what say you I went in I found Tom Vays and I shook him and then he just said lower so that's the only way to get the truth out of it is you have to shake him and now we're going to the magic eight ball on its own special camera oh look at that this is advanced technology here you have to shake the ball remember be careful that could cause bubbles will the price be higher this time next week and the ball says it's clearly recorded don't count on it it's a sarcastic magic eight ball full of bubbles don't count on shake too hard it might cause bubbles now we're moving on to issue two issue two El Salvador's Bitcoin experiment is looking like a disaster yes pretty much everything's gone wrong for El Salvador with the price of Bitcoin declining trouble in the society having to arrest hundreds maybe thousands of gang members as there were as tons of murder in the country El Salvador is an absolute Bitcoin nightmare meanwhile you got to admire the guy because he is buying more El Salvador purchased another 500 Bitcoin around a 15.5 million dollar bet at one of the recent lows meanwhile they've released plans for Bitcoin City while no longer a technological paradise on computer graphics it's now some kind of rendering in gold looks like it's been carved into a table as they continue plans for Bitcoin City let's go to Ben Ark what do you think about El Salvador and the Bitcoin disaster the media just loves to report on it this way I mean that Bitcoin City doesn't look very green does it like they're taking like a green belt like a beautiful volcano full of all this green lush rainforest and then they're putting this horrible like non-ecological construct on it and it's this desktop megalomaniac you know I'm gonna ego project I'm gonna build it doesn't seem like it has any parks and it does seem like it's kind of made of gold like a James Bond villain and then in the middle there there there'll probably be a big statue of the desk part that's usually the way they roll it's such a shame it's like the tech that thing isn't it's so hard for us all to do where we have an idea we have a pitch we have something which we anchor ourselves onto and socially anchor ourselves onto it as well and then we run with it and then there's a certain point where you're knowing your you're in your gut that what you're doing is wrong and you should reverse it and then invest that money into San Salvador make that a beautiful city which is so possible and plausible honestly it really is it's a lovely place but you just can't because you've got that sunken cos fallacy the sunken cast that tech that you don't want it you don't want to let go of this thing which you clung your ego onto and that kind of feels like this Bitcoin city project and it's a shame that it's still there's still stuff about it and it's like those you know it's almost like the you know the scenes of those films have hit low and it's ideal Berlin and this is but it's a lot like it'll be beautiful and meanwhile the Russians and the Americans are storming into Berlin and they're about to take Berlin and I mean you've got to admire I mean I know that he's in many ways very anti-democratic and he's he's eroded a lot of the democracy in the country and there's lots of problems with his with him and his party but you do have to admit the fact that he has an incredibly difficult country and he's still innovating and he's he's he's saying well you know we're going to use this Bitcoin thing we're going to build that infrastructure we're going to attract investors he's got a bit nutty and he's kind of like focused his energy maybe in the wrong direction but still to have such a broken like not broken but such a troublesome country with so many internal problems and then not just to be caught by those internal problems to be able to kind of like think well okay let's try and build something you know a little bit better than what we have there is something to be admired there and and that's what he's done with Bitcoin and I very much hope this his bet works I mean so if it goes the other way now and if the price does go up which is it's very plausible so you've got this this Bitcoin crashing down right but at the same time you've got like all these amazing companies and projects going in the other direction and all this energy in building out this infrastructure which is a hyperbolic like the the amount of hours human hours and which are going into pushing Bitcoin as a technology so maybe he sees that anything so you know the price is going to rebound and go back up and when it does like we're going to do very well off that particularly if we bought the dip so hopefully that bet pays off I really do hope it does pay off for the Al-Savardorian people but I mean I've spoken to friends on the ground who are in Al-Savardor now and they said there's loads of investors there there's loads of businesses who are trying to relocate there there's there's lots of good energy there and Al-Savardorian themselves like they understand like the Bitcoin market more than you probably think they do and it's you know it's it's volatile and that has its issues but they're still kind of interested about the technology less people now are using the Chivo wallet which is great so they're having more of a better bit top Bitcoin experience and it's not just that database flip which Chivo is doing but no it's not it's not a failed experiment and they've you know they've they've got an incredible amount of like gang violence and whatever else in Al-Savardor and Bicali's I mean I mean this it's kind of like you know this is what a dictator can do isn't it like you can take all the criminals and just lock them up and starve them which is apparently what he's been doing some of the jails but you know crime is a hell of a lot better in Al-Savardor like you can you can walk around San Salvador and you won't be kidnapped and held hostage like it's safe enough for a gringo to walk around whereas it wasn't you know like you know five six seven years ago like you couldn't go to the center of Al-Savardor it's just too dangerous it was really very dangerous place to be so on the ground I think this is why it's such a populist leader because he's a populist leader he's popular because the the real world impact for normal people is that they have a much safer Al-Savardor so hopefully and I quite like that statement by the the treasurer is running Al-Savardor when the IMF was saying they should liquefate their Bitcoin holdings to try and pay their debt and then the treasurer was like no you're not going to tell us to do anything we do whatever we want and I quite like that plucking us like they're just like yeah whatever keep your debt we're going to look even like more Bitcoin to be know it's going up and so he's yeah he's wearing the Bitcoin price dip well but hopefully won't have a detrimental effect on the people of Al-Savardor so far I don't think it has I actually think it's brought in a lot of investment, love tourism and things there's been quite positive for their economy and it's just their debt which is you know defaulting or on the way to defaulting hopefully Bitcoin is price I mean that's why we want the price to go up not only so we everyone makes a few extra you know dollars worth of stats or whatever but for these countries which are actually adopting Bitcoin for them to get just some capital which they can invest hopefully in a wise way and not some silly Bitcoin city idea well I know there's a lot of good Bitcoiners that were into this and sorry to be right and to tell you about it early but it was easy to be right about this Al-Savardor didn't have the people that were into technology they didn't have the people that were into Bitcoin the people didn't want it they felt it was forced upon them and at the same time you got the whole dictatorship the gang violence the bad country it wasn't the right place for this Bitcoin thing but we forced it on them anyway we put on a super popular man like he's I mean I agree with what you're saying very now being he being anti-democratic with populist leader he's very popular among those people who's got like to prove or write things in in in you know private polling like he has still has huge approval rates is it really if you're really popular you could run for re-election and not use the military to change the results of the election I mean there's you can be popular and work within the constraints of the government or you can use that popularity to do anything that you want to do and that's when you become a dictator so yes you can be a popular and be a dictator he could clear the streets and remove the threat of violence but also maybe he cleared the streets too extremely how many innocent men were caught up in the the dragnet and this is again the always the back and forth slider of of what you want to accept and I just don't think it was the right place for Bitcoin the Bitcoin city that's why everything feels like a scam that's why the confusing volcano bond with the 50 50 switch that's why the Chivo wallet with at not actually giving the people the 30 dollars in Bitcoin everything continues to smell bad about this situation and as much as we want the best and we root for the Bitcoins that are down there we hope the best for all the companies everything just keeps smelling bad although again props to them for buying the bottom props for them for saying the right thing and continuing on with this Bitcoin experiment despite the negative press maybe they come out well in the future and this is just a downturn Josh Egolla what do you think about the El Salvador Bitcoin experiment I mean look it's not like America so-called democracy doesn't have gang violence or doesn't have innocent people in prison it's not you know book Kelly could have said I'm just going to print a whole lot of money like Venezuela and and and basically be totally you know I think there's worse economic things he could have done than incorporate Bitcoin into his economy like I don't think it's that bad I think it's good to see this experimentation on a state level dictator or not and I think gang violence and all this stuff is a problem generally in a lot of South American countries but also in Western countries and really what it comes down to is lifting the middle class the more you can lift the middle class the wider the middle class can become the less crime you get and and this is I guess he one of the ways that he sees that vision of having Bitcoin allowing that middle class to grow now the way he goes about it with you know I don't know him storing his family storing all the Bitcoin and I don't know if that's the right way to go but but at least it's it's going with with Bitcoin or cryptocurrency or whatever whatever I mean it's fully gone Bitcoin so that's great you know he could have created his own coin or or just minted his own like just not even a coin just done another fed reserve nonsense snowball and and you know who knows so I think it's great that he's tried to get away from the IMF try to not take loans from from these predatory organizations that that like the World Bank and this sort of nonsense they probably they probably owe a lot of money to them and just want to get out from underneath that that crap so I think it's an interesting experiment man this whole space is full of interesting experiments you know so seeing it on the state level hey I don't know the guy I don't live there I can't make a judgment on if he's doing a good job a bad job because I don't have time to look at that but I'm sure someone would tell me if it was really really really horrific and like Ben said he is a populist leader and yeah I mean I'm not a fan of dictatorships not even a fan of democracy really that much but I think democracy is probably better than dictatorships and and having more and more choice would be even better so yeah that's my two cents I think we could probably agree with church Hill that democracies the best system given the alternatives moving on to the exit question forced prediction yes or no will the Bitcoin experiment cause the collapse of the bukele regime and arc no I don't think so he's very very popular and like people will just they'll look at the crime which existed and how and safe they felt in our Salvador you know six seven eight years ago they'll look at now and despite what the international stage might be saying about our Salvador for them that's a real world material change so he'll still be popular and the regime will continue on and if the price goes up which I it very possibly could at the Bitcoin price could you know could could do its thing then of course everybody's going to think he's a genius and either the ultimate play so Josh Shagala I think exactly Ben Spotton I don't think you know it's really not that much money that in the big scheme of things that they've got in there really when you look at Luna so yeah I think it's yeah I think it's a good play I think it is good play and I think in the next five years the whole world will be looking at him like he's a genius the answer is yes the chief o wallet will be hacked or stolen from and will finally find out how many Bitcoin you can fit in a briefcase when you flee the country disaster and crisis but it all all seem like an accident we tried that they're not they're not they're not just the money out the back door we have no idea the wonderful thing about the stuff we're building is even if you build like a shitty state wallet which doesn't do Bitcoin properly and estate-based flips people can just take the Bitcoin out and they can just start using actual lightning while it's a Bitcoin wallets and no one uses a chief o wallet no no one and it's a joke like among the people like they know it's Bollocks so that's great they're learning like they're learning even if you know that they have access to internet and like Josh says there is this emerging middle class and I saw them there's plenty of them there's plenty of these rich kids and whatever else in in our Salvador and since Salvador and and even working class people are back to the phones they're learning about the thing with this Bitcoin thing and the the the bank care the last week in fact we pushed the ibex vacated workshop they're going to be doing with 17 plus year olds in our Salvador and that's that's a really good course which they're building so so educationally wise like you're really giving that whole population a jumping head start and and they're learning what wallet's a good what wallet's a good and and and Chivo he's not going to run off of the Chivo money because well there's nothing in there you know and people have learned that it's nonsense well they better hurry and remove their money before it's too late as you all know everyone said that the service on the sheep marketplace was absolutely stellar right up until the weekend when they exit scammed right up until that weekend great service moving on check out WCN clips just google WCN clips were right there on youtube look we have 104 subscribers we are marching to victory with great videos like Roger Vier promotes dogecoin is Bitcoin winning over other crypto currencies and central african republic adopts Bitcoin as legal currency maybe things will turn out at there just as good as l Salvador we can only hope moving on to issue three Elon Musk's bid to buy Twitter is on hold casting doubt on the 44 billion dollar deal as we've talked about before Elon Musk was going to have to sell or perhaps leverage some of his Twitter shares to get the money to buy Twitter obviously with the market turned down to a Tesla shares have been affected as with the rest of the market maybe Elon doesn't have the money he's also saying now that he's worried about the number of spam and fake accounts on Twitter oh watch out for that one Elon Josh Chagall what do you think about Elon Musk's attempt to buy Twitter now seems like it's in trouble mainly just because of the money he just doesn't have the money I like Elon can get the money I don't think that's a problem the whole world is a flush with money it's just silly but I you know we've seen it with as soon as the market turned down a VCs family officers all of them start shutting doors start covering positions and start not lending you know capital does dry up but I think someone like Elon Musk can can muster the money whether it shares amongst a whole bunch of mates of his and it's not him solely the owns a but a a circle of his peers so I don't believe that and I think maybe it is a due diligence thing where they they are starting to see the numbers that there are just so many bots and you know in the future it's going to be really really really really difficult if anyone's seen palm the new AI it makes GPT3 look like a caveman and the GPT3 made Siri look like an amoeba so it's really stunning how fast AI is now growing we are heading towards a singularity that's for sure and and yeah like these bots when you plug that in and you know people like you don't know who's human you just don't and yeah we'll see we'll see what happens we'll see what happens I think in terms of fact checking and all of this I think what he might start to see is that he he wants this panacea this open discussion course but he's already getting threats from Google saying that they'll take Twitter off of Play Store and Apple if they allow hate speech and hate speech is a very vague term you could use it for anything I'm pretty sure Hitler would have used that as well from the pull the old Hitler card out here but you know you can you can really like strangle speech and say it's hate speech or it's it's this or that but really freedom of freedom of conversations you need the freedom of ideas swapping ideas because if you if you crush one side and all of a sudden you get a different leader and they swap they have the technology to swap that you just you don't want to go there you want free speech of course you want to ban images of you know child abuse and and people getting their heads cut off an animal torture and stuff but I think I think it's going to be very very difficult for him to have a truly free space because yeah the rest of well Google and Apple are really big gatekeepers because of the App Store situation which never used to be there by the way guys when I grew up you downloaded an application that wasn't called an app it was still called an application and you installed it from the internet yeah it was full of viruses and crap but um but you didn't have a central control over what you installed you just installed it or you had a floppy disk can you install that I think that's definitely the trade-off there Josh between getting all the viruses versus having the App Store where presumably you don't get the viruses and maybe like you're saying you don't get the extreme content the questionable the hate speech wherever you want to go with that um but I'm not sure about this experiment that Elon Musk has going out there like Josh is saying he seems to be into this idea of unrestricted free speech we have one of those on the internet it's called 4chan it's an unfortunate place it's full of hate speech negative things all kinds of bad stuff and as Elon has expanded publicly he's gotten into political speech saying that he would unband Trump he's become kind of a conservative hero and if you agree with him or not none of this is good for Tesla none of this is good for SpaceX he has these kind of uh technologically not political companies where they're trying to go to space they're trying to build electric cars these aren't necessarily political things you don't need to be political to ride in a Tesla but as he keeps acting this way he might bring that back on the company so I think that's bad for them and if you look at Tesla look how upset they got when they took Bitcoin they're like Bitcoin's bad for the environment Tesla can't take Bitcoin look at what Elon is attempting to do with political speech whether it's good or bad whether you agree with him or not he's waiting into a space that he doesn't need to be in if you look at him three years ago five years ago he's this technology technology genius he's paypal he's SpaceX he's Tesla solar city technology Edison Tesla genius right inventor now he's waited into political speech and whether you like him or not he's going to get dirty he's going to get dirt on his suit I think it's a bad deal for Elon it's bad for his companies and it's much worse than when he smoked pot on Joe Rogan Ben arc what do you think of Elon is plan to take Twitter do you agree with Josh do you think he'll get the money no problem uh maybe even the money's an excuse maybe he's feeling this political pressure I'm talking about and saying maybe I could excuse out of this I could say hey it's I just don't have the money right now sorry I can't buy it you know no he's pretty early on he was like a lot of the the board members of Twitter they were they were suing Elon because he he can't because he had X amount of shares which he didn't make public and then he tried to buy Twitter and there's there's some clause in that you know their charter whatever that this is charter which this allows him for them you know to buy Twitter because it's like some sort of rigged thing so I actually think it's illegal like he can't legally buy Twitter he has the money and then he also I mean he said that he was going to buy it off himself but which you could do um yes you know we're just doing the world um also people say but uh he then also had people who were willing to invest you know he had um uh yeah so people who were willing to give him money just buy Twitter as well and there's some control of this very powerful medium but the whole cult of the entrepreneur is just uh excuse um to legitimize centralized control and we don't want centralized control because we know if you have any centralized control then you know it all fall into the hands of somebody you don't want it to fall in the hands of and it's just better that somebody doesn't control something like Twitter and Twitter is decentralized pre- and open source protocol he there was some talk originally of him saying that he wanted to do certain parts of Twitter he wanted to create make pre- and open source in a way that you know they couldn't censor Twitter um but these are all that hard problems which you know like as within the pre- and open source consensusy type world have been hitting on head against the wall for for for a whole bunch of years and what and uh you know he's not going to suddenly swoop in and fix those problems um there's some great projects and there's a lot of momentum because people know that things like Twitter need to exist like large scale communication apparatus needs to exist but it doesn't need to be in the control of some private company or government or whatever else it needs to be something which is like the commons you know and that's the free and open source stuff isn't it um and there's a whole bunch of ways of tackling like you know hate speech and and access to things like hate speech and uh you know which spoke before like i'm very bullish on the nostar stuff i think that's pretty cool um those are someone posting earlier the day there's just that telegram group man i mean i pop in there every now and then i like i send the last show i haven't really done any like active development on anything to do a nostar recently but uh i went in there the other day and someone was talking about profiles somehow um a client could um uh there could be a sort of hash attached to a profile uh where they have to get x amount of zero so that has to be some sort of proof of work which is your computer or whatever device you're using whatever client you're using has to use a computation of the the device you're using so if you try to see too which socks poppatory you could do sock poppatory then uh it would computationally cost you a lot so it would you're less likely to do and i thought that was very interesting so there's people working on like the sock poppite issue and there's people working on reputation issue um and then there's people working on the the sort of censorship issue because you want a sensor like i want a sensor self-censor uh the content i have access to uh but um so this is something which will emerge and the ultimate solution will come from the free open source space ultimately it's always easier to do it in a centralized way anything it's easier to do in a centralized way and that's why Twitter was built it was like oh build this thing we have private company blah blah blah and then there's all these problems you know which we hit up against um and uh users aren't happy because they get banned for some political reason or whatever else uh and then you know um uh it it's unjustifiable in on what some of the Twitter did deep platforming has happened you know personally like i've seen i'd be quite glad for some people to be the flat form from Twitter but it's still an unjustifiable amount of censorship um so uh these problems need to be solved and they will be solved by the free open source community in this building so sort of decentralized solution and if uh Elon Musk gives a spy by the way uh wants to be part of that then uh then then great but um we'll probably want because he's a spy and uh yeah well and remember the the original Twitter had an API and it was a large part of the Twitter design that you could build your own Twitter client you could display the tweets anyway you wanted you could display only some tweets or all tweets you had access to the data and slowly they rolled that back slowly they bought or killed all of the companies that use the Twitter API uh Twitter picks all kinds of things like this were rolled back uh there's been people floating the idea that Twitter could be a subscription service i agree with this idea for both twitter and facebook the problem now is you the customer are the product they serve you ads they find out information about you to serve you better at it. We saw this in us that in switch yeah in us that you could have like relays where you have to like pay to tweet um pay some stats to tweet this so they could be some economic uh you know um um roadblock if you should put in content out there and it's an interesting solution to me it feels a little bit vulgar but another step through for work solution as well which is a possible answer but what's great about so-and-as-so is it could be a hard to patch so different relays could kind of work differently um but uh yeah this whole cult of the entrepreneur even with Jack doors like Jack doors who like I like to do and he's he created a product which didn't really change much when you look at something like facebook and how i'm looking for such change like clearly Twitter was just very well built from the get-go um and uh the concept was was sound and then Jack doors he was like I'm gonna make blue sky and we're gonna do decentralized Twitter and blah blah blah and then nothing came out of blue sky for for for years because it's hard it's dead hard and you it's not a case of you've got this genius you know if i can um you know have it in the Hollywood industry you've got this uh uh uh a stark like facking uh i and man Elon Musk genius billionaire who's who's there for a reason because he's a genius and he's one in the million and it's it's nonsense like he's there because he's got incredibly talented engineers who are equally as good as him if not better than him working around him and uh um ultimately like in a free and open source you know um uh uh solution then then you're able to pull in all that all those minds you know working on one problem and there is no you know so dictator there is no one at the top of that uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh that hierarchical structure is flat and that's what we want when it comes to you know uh uh an international communication that worked like Twitter well i think it's interesting with both Twitter and paypal as we talk about Elon Musk a minute ago uh at the core if you let the users take the product off of your centralized server all kinds of horrible things can happen with it uh paypal when they're developing their product, they're like, well, if we let users pay wallet to wallet, they could be buying prostitutes or drugs or overthrowing governments. We have no idea, right? The same thing with Twitter. If we take the product off of the centralized service away from the moderation as much as you might not like politically motivated moderation, there's an incredible amount of pornography and violence and spam and whatever you want to call it that people are pumping into Twitter all the time that we're not seeing because of this moderation that the minute you go to a decentralized Twitter, you suddenly have incredible moderation problems. You have perhaps even legal problems if bad messages are traveling through your servers, the same as PayPal. If bad money was traveling through your servers to bad causes, you're suddenly responsible which goes back to why Bitcoin was designed the way it was and the way the blockchain works to prevent that censorship and that Bitcoin, like a year and a half, allows all these good things but also allows all these bad things. You've got it as well, feel for these microlancers who are earning such small amounts of money to like click through horrific video, horrific image after horrific image and the earning pennies for every single one and that's how like Twitter and things do their moderation currently. There's surely a bad way of doing it then sacrificing these incredibly poor people who just need to make a little bit of money. But I also think like I've heard Elon say that Jack and him have talked and Jack never wanted to really ban Trump and think thought it was a terrible idea and really what it comes down to is that when you can't silence Trump's voice and this is exactly what Elon said, he just went over to truth social and everyone moved over there and you just start to radicalise the right and a vast amount of America. I mean you've got to remember a lot of people voted for this guy. They all feel alienated, move away from Twitter and they start to not have the conversation between the left and the right which is really, really important. You need that constant discord. You need if a bad idea comes along, the good idea comes or if a good idea comes along and someone wants to challenge it with a bad idea, this is really, really important. If you split those apart, they start in these echo chambers and they get radicalised and more and more ridiculous and goofy. I feel it's a mistake to do that, especially with someone that literally the point of how to get to the top there is you get more than 50% of the government of the people sorry to vote for the guy. It'd be interesting, there's so many things I really am looking forward to Nostar launching all of these things are experiments. AI is going to screw over a lot of it. It is going to be so many scams and deep fakes and oh my god, the future is looking crazy. But at the same time a lot of AI will help take away that horrific job of these micro freelancers. What did you call them? Micro-lancers. They don't get paid to look at these horrific images and they don't have enough money to even go see counselling and they don't get paid to get debriefed properly and it is a really horrible job. I can't imagine what they see. The problem when someone tries to overthrow the entire government is that it's bad for business. It's bad for business on both sides. While they put Hitler and jail after the right-stock firing between the two elections after the UNICPORT put it didn't work but still what are you going to do? Not put him in jail, not try to preserve the society, they want to keep making money, they need to try to preserve the society. The problem with Facebook and Twitter is that we've seen how they can turn against democratic governments. We haven't seen how they can support democracy, how they can improve our discussion like Josh said. We do need that discussion. Unfortunately, that discussion was over a long time before the ban. I actually also think that exactly you hit the nail on the head there, Thomas, in terms of these social networks are highly controlled by the secret services. The way to manipulate, and there's been experiments that very open to Facebook said we can make people feel how we want them to feel on the day. We just depend on what we show them in the newsfeed. If you're the CIA and you have control over multiple platforms around the world, you can start to control who you want in power around the world because Twitter is a global thing. Why wouldn't you want, if there's a country and you think you want this person to power, hey, Twitter, tweak what people see more positive about this person. Of course you want to control that. Of course you want to control that. You don't want to have that just waste that card. And yeah, it sounds conspiracy, but I'm pretty sure if I was a CIA head, I would be pushing, hey, you want to do business and then you've got to play with us. Plus, you probably want to play with us because we're America. And you're an American company here. It's his first, so Homeland Security. You Elon. Yeah, and then Elon will come along and now he's starting to see the deep states all in there and mucking around and controlling stuff. Of course, I'm of course. Why wouldn't you? I've seen enough stuff in East Germany and West Germany here, how the state controls stuff back in the day and nowadays as well. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you? These companies operate in every country, most countries around the world. And they basically, those people that are looking at those feeds, get whatever feeling they get from those feeds. You know, you are what you eat. It's like the departed when you realize Jack Knuckerson, he was a rat the whole time. And that's how he was able to come so powerful was because he was a rat and he was working with the authorities. Well, Elon Musk, we just mind the world. We've been naive to think that he hasn't been touched by the, you know, alphabet. Well, again, spoiler alert. I think we're going to find out that we underestimated the impact of social media on our society. Yes, Facebook did have many experiments internally, but in general, we weren't prepared for this. No one thought about this. And again, even if you say we need an educated and informed populist for our democracy and this is going to destroy that, you can't stop them from building it. They have to build it anyway. But let's get back on topics we can go to the next topic. Quick exit question. Will Elon Musk succeed in purchasing Twitter? Yes or no? Josh Shagall. I thought it was a done deal. But anyway, Josh is sticking with done deal. Ben, arc, yes or no, Elon purchases Twitter. Yes, but it will take a while because there's a whole load of legal hurdles. And he is being sued over his, is attempt to purchase Twitter. So yes, eventually, but not in the immediate future. Well, I agree with Josh. I thought it was a done deal. The fact that they're hedging on it now makes me think it's not certain. And I don't think it's going to happen. I think somebody is going to say to him, they're going to say, you don't want to own this thing. You've got some perfectly good technology companies. Just run those companies for a while. Don't get political. You don't need this headache. Moving on to issue four issue four coin base coin base stock has tanked. As Brian Armstrong said that they expect quarter two to have lower transaction volume and lower monthly transaction users than the quarter one levels coin base being affected by the downturn in Bitcoin and cryptocurrency trading. Additionally, Bitcoin and other users are upset. As coin base during their SEC reveal for their stock said that if they do go bankrupt, customers will not receive crypto. But instead will receive a receipt for the bankruptcy, where they will likely be refunded their money in dollar terms, not their crypto. So once again, hold your own keys, have your own coins, or hold them at coin base and see what happens. Josh, you got a really bad news for Coinbase this week, both the downturn and then the stock following the bad news about the trading. And then the Bitcoin or event kind of a sideline. But what do you think about Coinbase this week? Outlook, I mean, this is really important for people to understand. When you put your money in a bank, it is literally not your money. The bank promises to pay you your money back. And for that, they'll give you some interest, well, usually unless you live in Europe. So when they go bankrupt, you will not get your Bitcoin and crypto. And this is exactly why we started Voltaurip in the first place. Was that I was looking for a way to have a counter asset to Bitcoin that could be legally in the user's name. So we found, obviously, we worked with Gold Boolean. Gold can be allocated in your name as your legal property. And it sits in a high security voting facility. It's just there. It's a block of metal. It's insured and it's audited. And so people trade into Gold, which is like the ultimate stablecoin, over 5,000 years of testing. And then you can trade back to Bitcoin when it comes to it. And if anything happens to us at Voltaurip, as a company, liquidators can't touch your assets, because it's off of the company's books. Your Gold is allocated. It's not ours. We just connect the two and it's done. With Coinbase, you're putting your thing in, your Bitcoin in. It's their Bitcoin now. Legally, not figuratively, legally. It's on their books. It's on their balance sheet. And this is the very, very important part to think about when you're thinking about Exchange and this is why after the Mt. Gox collapsed, I started Voltaurip was to find that solution to the bankruptcy problem. I'm still waiting for my payout from Mt. Gox, because the liquidators still sitting there, all the lawyers are still munching away on every creditors' stuff. So it's important to have. That's why we started this idea of having Gold, sitting in a vaulting facility in your name, is your legal property off of Voltaurip's balance sheet. And yeah, so I don't think Coinbase will go bankrupt that easily. It is looking pretty bad, but I think they're cash loaded enough. It's a big week for Josh, you're right on Voltaur, you're right on the standard. Both of your issues are coming up. And again, you're on the right side of both of these, but they seem to again have all the money and all the big things. How can you screw up with that much right now? We've literally been running on the smell of an oily rag for so many years. These companies have infinite cash, have constant parties, everything's paid for, everything's done in there. Like what? Talking about bankruptcy now? A load? What? I don't, I don't, again, I don't think there's a risk of them getting bankruptcy at all. I would actually go the other way. I guarantee you they'll be bought by Merrill Lynch or Goldman Sachs or one of these large banks just to get the customer list alone. But not to be mean to Bit Corners, but this is not a surprise. It's not a surprise that Coinbase would not give you your coins back in the event of an unlikely cataclysmic bankruptcy like Josh said, you would get that little piece of paper. It would go through the lawyers. And fortunately, unlike Mt. Gox, it would be in English this time. So you wouldn't get those strange letters with all the characters. As for the trading downturn, it is certainly a bummer, but this is Coinbase. And when crypto and Bitcoin are trading down, Coinbase is going to trade down as well. So it's a bit unfortunate if you were looking for a stock maybe to diversify. Maybe you had that idea like I did where you're going to buy the shovels and you're going to be the miners and the stores and stuff that hasn't worked out since the ICO for Coinbase stock. We definitely took it in the chin on that one. Shout out to BitCoinTina. We spoke in a chat once. He was very much against Coinbase. I was like, why not just give it a try. And he was right. I was wrong. Both Coinbase and BitCoin went down. So neither of them was any good. We all should have gotten cash or maybe gold. I don't know. There's when it's raining everywhere, there's nowhere to hide. So it doesn't matter what moves you did, you would be slightly better off. Ben Arck, what do you think about Coinbase, both the creepy bankruptcy potential and the bad news for the stock and the trading? I mean, yeah, of course it's theirs. And they can do whatever they want with it. Hopefully they'll try and be some sort of clever technological solution. But Coinbase is always falling quite short when it comes to innovating, technological-wise. And hopefully that's what we're just trying to people to better services, where they can't just take your money. If something goes wrong, or decentralized exchanges, and they're still bubbling away in the background. And again, try to solve this problem. Like you've trusted their party work, so it's easy. But doing this thing in their sort of decentralized safer way is hard. But we'll look at there eventually. And hopefully we'll just try more customers towards their products by services. Yeah, so just fall to her. So yeah. Exit question, will Coinbase go bankrupt? Or could this cause CEO Brian Armstrong to be removed, much like Zuckerberg, Armstrong has held onto his company since the beginning. Josh Shagalla, is this the end for Coinbase? No, no, no, this is just a headline clickbait nonsense Coinbase is too good. It's not like the Bitcoins would overreact. It's not like they would overreact and start screaming about how they're not going to get their coins back. Not like that doesn't fit with their pattern of not your coins, not your keys, all the things they say all the time, being reinforced once again, nothing like that's happening. Ben Arck, is it over for Coinbase, Brian Armstrong? No, I mean most of their customers aren't quote unquote Bitcoins, are they like what we think of a Bitcoin as being? So no, they'll continue, they've got big fat stacks and yeah, they've got a lot of, they don't have access to a lot of money, so no, they'll be fine. I agree, they'll be fine and worst case scenario, they'll be sold to a larger bank, a larger company, investment bank, somebody like that will come in and buy them for the customer list alone. All right, we're out of stories, we're moving on to prediction or story of the week, Josh Agala, do you have a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. You're muted. The prediction, well, now the prediction has been that Luna's going to fail. And so this week I'm all out of predictions. But yeah, story of the week is that really, when things bad things happen and we've seen these cycles happen over and over again, and sometimes really people get very, very wrecked. And while you hope that scams are like candles that you, you know, kid my touch and understand what the heat of a flame is without, you know, severe lifelong injuries, unfortunately, some of these crypto, some of these large scale, either if they're malthought out or just blatant scams like Big Connect was, sometimes these are roaring fires that people throw their whole bodies into thinking that they're going to become wealthy and they don't survive, they're scarred for life. And sadly, there's sometimes, you know, the calls are for like suicide hotlines and things. And if you are feeling really, really, you know, down in the dumps right now and really helpless and you've made some bad decisions, please reach out to people that's you know, talk to people about it, don't do anything drastic. And I don't mean that lightly, honestly, I've been in this game long enough to see people actually really suffer. And there's light at the end of time. If you have the, if you have the attitude and the knowledge and to want to be successful in this space, you will be. You just, this is a lesson. There's a lesson and you've learned it and now move forward and move along. I agree with Josh. It's good to talk to your fellow bit coiners about these problems. A lot of people have lost as much as you or maybe more and they can commiserate and you can feel a better understanding. It's not just your mistake. A lot of us are stupid too. And this keeps happening to us. It goes up and it goes down and then it goes up again. And presumably, it's going to be like that this time. We don't know. We don't have financial advice other than the wisdom of the magic eight ball, which is the source of all truth, as you know. But other than that, no, we don't have any advice, but definitely call out talk to people. Get help. I like this in the chat. Miguel Pacho says, Elon is reminiscent of Peter Sellers character in the magic Christian. A great comedy about a billionaire who trolls and corrupts everyone he meets for his own amusement. Sounds like an interesting comparison. Ben Archt, you have a story of the week or a prediction? Go ahead. I think to Rosalina what Josh was saying, actually, it's very true that obviously we're kind of a bit seasoned. We're used to these ups and downs. But even people who are seasoned, whatever, it's hard for people, particularly if they've gone all in and they thought that the comments are going to make them rich and they'll invest all this money in it and then they lose it and it drops in price and it can be quite terrifying for people. So just reach out like everyone makes mistakes. Don't worry about it. Just people who think that they're going to put all their life savings into buying the dip. No, just invest wisely. Like, don't invest in amount of money, which is going to be cataclysmic to your life. Ultimately, it's something we should come recover from and just reach out to people who can help you if you're feeling down and the dumps about it all. Then when it comes to story of the week, not a lot, right? I mean, so the make it, there's the Oslo Freedom Forum. It's going to be happening next week and then I hope to do the show with their WhatsApp date now. I won't be there on the 20th. No, but I won't be there next Friday, but it's on the 23rd is the Oslo Freedom Forum Forum. The Oslo Freedom Forum by Human Rights Foundation. And that'll be really great. So if anyone's in near Norway or can get to Bellers of Freedom Forum, please do. And we've got lots of really interesting. There's been a real drive, actually, a real push for NFC stuff because I think people have found out with QR codes. They're probably from all the COVID stuff. We've had enough of QR codes. And we want to, we want to experience lightning how it's supposed to be experienced. A Bitcoin payment, how it's supposed to be experienced. We're using like literally just tapping and then boom, you're making a payment. So being working pretty hard on Alan Bitts and getting up to support NFC stuff and then also like building NFC into the point of sale. I've been working this week on a ATM, on an updated FOSSA, the Freedom Source ATM project. I've been filling around with a bill acceptor and I've been taking a lot of my time. But yeah, no, it's just, it's kind of bill time again, isn't it? The price is down. Don't look at the price build stuff because you build cool things and that's ultimately, you know, what drives value to this whole thing is all the great minds and all this creative impetus we have to try and build out this new future financial infrastructure and rails, which we should have access to and we can bank the unbanked, which is the ultimate goal. So yeah, just build stuff get involved. I did a little drive earlier to down Twitter. I just put on Twitter. I said join us and then I put our Make a Bits channel. So it's a telegram, Make a Bits. I very much urge people to join that. It's full of people like working on the hardware stuff on the DIY hardware stuff, which is very important for I think for Bitcoin and banking and bank people. But yeah, just get involved actually building out. Don't just worry about the price. Like if you can get involved and actually building in and just running software like run a node, like play around run a Raspberry Blitz and then install the different applications, the one-click install applications and then give some feedback to those projects. It's so valuable when people drop into our telegram group and they say, oh, you know, this work, this didn't work. Could you do this? Could you do that? That's ultimately how we like drive value. So if you're worried about your investment, like that's the way we drive value to this thing is just by people building and running software and experimenting. And it's also how you keep the space decentralized because it's all these these amateurs or professionals doing amateur work and that build all these things that you can print out in your own garage and really work out the small. Instead of these large corporations like Coinbase just, oh, we own this part of Bitcoin. No, no, no, we, you know, we're supporting the little guys that are making and creating and doing wonderful experiments and building technology. That's crazy, man. Like on our Make-of-its channel, we've got like, I mean, for years, I'm not an electrical engineer and I'm just using off the shelf like hardware to try and build some of these things. And now we have like some pretty cool electrical engineers coming in and that they're building boards and devices which are specifically built for Bitcoin stuff. And it's very cool to see that momentum and it makes me, yeah, very bullish on all of Bitcoin, just the amount of energy which is kind of driving and they might have great minds which are of pouring into it. And I would great minds like amateur minds like you say, like people who are just like experimenting and want to get the hands dirty, they want to they want to learn new things, they want to be empowered, they want to become autonomous, they ultimately that's how you have autonomy is by by learning the tools properly and learning how to use this stuff properly. So yeah, get involved. Not much going on this week for me. I've been enjoying block size war, the book. I started a while ago but I got back to it. It's a great history book about the events that just happened a few years ago. It's great to read his analysis. He kind of sees everything tactically. It has a bit of a military history feel while you're reading about it. The small blockers versus the large blockers and this small gambit worked and this one failed and the small blockers have the initiative and things like that. It's a great read, especially if you live throughout just a few years ago. We just celebrated the fifth anniversary of Kerio cards shout out to my little NFT project that we made many years ago. We used to call them blockchain collectibles, digital collectibles, things like that and people are actually collecting them these days. They're buying, they're selling. There's a huge marketplace for Kerio cards. People talk about them all the time. So it's great to see that project have some success although it took about four years for anyone to find it. So it's been about a year of success but five years overall. So it's interesting the way that happens sometime. And of course, happy birthday to me. Celebrate my birthday week this week. So thanks to everybody for giving us a thumbs up. Push and subscribe down below. Maybe give us a comment if you're watching this later on. We read all the comments. There's only like five or six of them. But thanks so much for joining us. Until next time. Bye.