The Bitcoin Group The American Original For over the last ten seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto-raptor. Good morning, good afternoon and good night. Ben Arck from Lightning Bits, LN Bits. Good evening, good afternoon and good morning. Martin Wishmeyer from General Bites, not Bits. Hi, how are you? And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one. Why Russia hopes accepting Bitcoin will save the economy, prop up the rubles, and leave western sanctions in the dust. Yes, Russia is considering accepting Bitcoin, and they might even accept Bitcoin for oil and gas. Normally, we're all excited about a new country accepting Bitcoin. Russia, who invaded its neighbor Ukraine just about 28 days ago or something like that, now seems to be accepting Bitcoin in an attempt to evade sanctions and spite the world of nations. Dan Eave, your thoughts on Russia joining Bitcoin? Can we accept a Bitcoin bond from Russia soon? Well, it's an open system, right? So Bitcoin doesn't welcome or dismiss anyone. I think that the impact will be on the perceptions of the people that are against Russia is that Russia is using it there for Russia, and Russia is bad, therefore Bitcoin is a bad tool. But then the counter-argument is that it's also having a good use at the moment Bitcoin for Ukraine. But obviously, the thing is that not everyone in Russia is as bad as the government, right? And I'm not saying that they are. Most Russians are bad or anything like that, because the people aren't exactly the government, right? And they're crazy at stuff, and the people completely disagree, but they're being punished at the same time. All these sanctions that are taking place, fair enough, they're hitting the Russian government and they're huge reserves, etc. But they're also ultimately passing on the burden to the actual people of Russia, who may or may not disagree with the invasion or the special operation, or the special operation as the Russian government is calling it. Ultimately, it's an open system, so if Russia are using it, it's their choice. They see an opportunity here. The fact that the dollar is perhaps being used a bit less and less now for trading oil and other commodities, I think that's going to become a lot more commonplace. And rather than just using their own local currencies, I know that I think the even India have changed the way they're buying oil now as well. So Russia opening up to Bitcoin, it just seems sensible that a currency being controlled by the people rather than specific governments will work for everyone ultimately, because what it means is that it's an apolitical money that can be adopted by all governments to ensure that none of them can do each other over. So I see even though people might go, oh, Russia's using Bitcoin, therefore Bitcoin is for kidnappers, extortionists and blah, blah, blah, and invaders, space invaders, as it were at the end of the day, it's just a tool. And you know, you can use a hammer to hammer a nail or you can use it to back to someone around the head. And just because you use a hammer to back on someone around the head, it doesn't mean it's a bad tool. It means you're using the tool wrong. As the article said dismissively, alternatively, they could pay in Bitcoin a stateless asset backed only by the trust of the community behind it. I like the way they explain Bitcoin in a sentence and they always have a different explanation. They're like, sometimes it's backed by ones and zeros and cryptography. Other times it's backed by expensive environment, destroying mining machines, but today it's backed by only the community. That's a community coin. But really, the more important thing is that the Russian news made the price go up. Martijn Wishmeyer, the enemy of our enemy is our enemy. I read the article that thought it was sort of desperate move because nobody is buying the oil anymore. So it just is the only income they actually have because for the rest, well, not think. So it's just desperate. He needs foreign currencies. So anything is welcome. Even Bitcoin in their eyes. So the Russian rubles is in rubble. So $1,000, yen, they don't care. Bitcoin, before you know it, they'll even start accepting dogecoin because they're that desperate. So. I think you could also trade in your car or your bicycle. Russia will accept hard metals, washers, lightly used clothing. Ben Arck, as Dan was saying, Russia is attempting perhaps to trade oil in Bitcoin, upsetting the petro dollar, the idea that you trade oil in dollars, the entire world market, including the Saudi and Arabic states all trade with the petro dollar. But now it's been broken perhaps by Bitcoin. Well, you know, as Dan said before, you know, oh, sorry, as you said, as a quote from the article, the Bitcoin's backed by the community is opposed to being backed by the violence of the big authoritarian imperialist state. If you look at, you know, war, when war happens and the different weapons you can use, if you use a weapon, which is indiscriminate and then has a lot of civilian casualties, then that's in fact a war crime. And against the Geneva conventions and sanctions as a tool of war as a weapon is exactly that. I mean, the people who are really affected by it are civilians and they're civilian casualties and it's a war crime. So anything which can bypass sanctions to me is a good thing. I know that, you know, obviously these sanctions be rolled out to try and weaken Russia in its attack on Ukraine. And the sentiment I suppose is, you know, it's obviously coming from a good place or that they're using what power they can without actually waiting into war and causing war to war three. But personally, sanctions to me, I just see it as an indiscriminate weapon. When Biden's giddy that they've managed to make the the ruble, halve in value and that they've utterly decimated the Russian economy, I just think of all the civilian casualties which that we just then associated with that. And if there's ways of getting around that and keeping our economy moving for general public and civilians and that's a good thing. And as a late political money, this is why I almost, I mean, in all fields of economics, a Keynesian Austrian, whatever, Marxist, that the concept of having an apelate pay political medium of exchange, there's always been very appealing because this is what we had with the British pound when the Brits had the biggest empire on the planet. We used it to oppress people, we used it to subvert challenges to our power base. And in the same way, the US have done the same with the USD. And the more now there's that alternative, free and open source value transfer, the more pressure they put on people using their economic tools, the more they're going to subvert that by going by using these unsensurable censorship resistant mediums of exchange. So I think more and more people should realize the actual realities of sanctions and how austerity terrible they are for the population, the civilians of the people in the country, which the sanctions are levied against. Of course, in this case, the alternative would be a nuclear war or allowing a genocide and invasion without doing anything about it. So the sanctions are kind of the best only tool we have. No, that's not. Yes, they agree with Thomas here, you know, defense of the state and, you know, take away their money so they can't produce anymore. But they'll just print more money like the rubles made up so you can just print more. So taking away that we all know where that goes. We like it when you print more like everyone that's rooting for the end of government is like, yeah, printing more is good for ending government. It doesn't matter which one. But it is good for maintaining wars. That's the, you know, the downside is that it can keep an economy kind of alive as a hungry war machine. Yeah, but this is the reason why they founded central banks. They were there. They have central banks were initially founded to finance wars. So they're not there for like stabilizing the economy. No, they're there to found China finance a war. Well, and as we've seen over the last 20 years, we've attempted to work with dictatorships. We've worked with autocracies. We've tried to have that economic intertwining that we think will bring peace. And they're saying now because of this incident, countries are turning away from this idea. They're not going to try to work with the bad governments anymore. They're going to encircle them and starve them out. And I agree with Ben, it's going to lead to huge humanitarian disasters. But maybe less war and maybe no nuclear war. No, you know, you're humanitarian disasters. I mean, really just look at what they're doing to Ukraine. I mean, what's the worst disaster is like not having nespresso capsules in your supermarket or having your entire community blasted to bits. Now, I think this like it is not even comparable what type of disaster is currently going on there? So it's like, you know, in itself inflicted damage. They are the aggressor here. They invaded another country. It's not a conflict or anything. It's an invasion. So starve them to death. Death, Paul say that over 60% of all Russian people still support a commie bastard on the top of the food chain pyramid. So, you know, just like really starve and to death, you know, they want the freedom. They want to use our money. They want to keep the dollars. They like to have a yacht. They like everything they like to have their kid cat and McDonald's and espresso. And what? They don't and then they stay in beta to the country. No, fuck you can't have them both. No, sorry, sorry, sorry, the average on the show. Somebody has to beep that out. But no, no, I think they should, I think this best, best solution peacefully. Just like economic warfare is like you don't like it. Then don't use our money. Bye. Well, and going back to the Soviet Union, one of the big things they were upset about is they couldn't get Levi jeans. They couldn't get cassette tapes. They couldn't get televisions. They were lacking consumer products, which were being made cheaply and massively in the outside world. But they couldn't get inside of USSR. Go ahead, Dan. Yeah, well, not only saying now that they're going to do a 10 year ban on any companies that leave. So like, you know, if McDonald's leaves, then that's it. They're not allowed back for 10 for 10 for 10 years. That's what the Russians are threatening. They're saying they like saying, right, if you, if you leave us now, then you take away the biggest. If you lead us. 10 years. That is interesting. And it is, it is going to stop companies from doing what I thought they were going to do, which is. Leave for like six months, leave for two years and come right back. Or even better keep operating your subsidiaries and keep getting that money. During the World War II, IBM just separated with its subsidiary, Hollerith, and they were allowed to continue making fantastic machines inside of Germany that you could read about. But those are those are really evil ones that the IBM machines that literally they categorize people. Evil, evil is a scale when you talk about World War II. It could be an automotive, an automotive evil. There's all kinds. But as I said, the Russian news made the price go up. And that's what really matters. Prepare yourself to fight against the Bitcoin predictor ball on the road. Dan Eve will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week. I'm going higher. I'm the optimistic. I mean, optimistic this week. Ben Ark higher or lower? I was thinking again, where I was feeling remember my point of sale. And I was like, how is one penny worth 30 cents? I wasn't making sense. Must be broken. And it was the price. And then, and then I finally looked at the price. I was like, oh, it's the price again. And screw me over. So yeah, it's going to go higher. Martine Wishmare. Absolutely higher. And now the Bitcoin predictor ball, which we can't quite see because we only have one camera this week says, Will it be higher next week without a doubt? Yeah, out of doubt the Bitcoin predictor ball has spoken moving on to issue to Bitcoin miners want to recast themselves as eco friendly. Look at those windmails out in the distance. Those windmails are mining Bitcoin. Yes, it's still using energy, but it's using environmentally friendly energy or it's using excess energy. And the Bitcoin miners guild put together by Michael sailor is going to guarantee that they continue using this energy. Ben Ark are the Bitcoin miners really going carbon free? Or are they just talking about it as the New York time seems to accuse them of in the headline? Yeah, I mean, I'm someone who admits, you know, who thinks that humans can have an impact on climate. And the amount of carbon we put in atmosphere can be a bad thing. And I'm also someone who thinks that Bitcoin does have a heavy carbon footprint per transaction. If you're just doing like on chain transactions and just using send value for more person to another. And there's been a lot of kind of hope recently in Bitcoin. There was a podcast by. On what Bitcoin did and it was with a guy, come and resume. Let's try to find out actually. And it was on. Let me see if I can find it or I'll see if I can find a second. And it was on the idea of. And I think that the idea of a company's like carbon neutral investment companies. Investing in renewable Bitcoin mining as a way of getting into Bitcoin and then using it to offset carbon. We should then perpetuate more Bitcoin mining in renewables. I just kept a little of the whole thing because I think with a minor. It needs to be on like 100% of the time. I think you know, that's pretty much established needs to be on pretty much 100% of the time. And the issue with renewables is that you know, the sunshine's part of the day. The wind blows for a little bit, then it stops. So if you've got a renewable energy production energy source, then at some points, the. It's going to the wind's going to die. The sun's going to the clouds going to come in and. And then also you don't know when exactly this is one of the hardest things with the newables is that that doesn't also aligned with. And then the grid requirements, the grid which you're putting your energy into. So I'm very skeptical of the whole renewable Bitcoin mining. Argument that encourages renewable mining, but I'm very happy to be proved wrong. And there is some very interesting work which has been done by people trying to kind of gamify the renewable energy Bitcoin mining market. And I think that's really interesting. Yeah, like by this podcast which is on what Bitcoin does see if I can find it. I should have found that before we actually started there before we went on to the book. I see if I can find it. It does seem like a large like an economic debate between if you had a windmill, should you be mining energy that you could sell on the market. Or should you be mining that lucrative Bitcoin that you could sell on the market. And then someone just sets up more windmails that aren't working on the energy problem. They're working on the making Bitcoin energy bigger problem. Well, the argument would be that when there isn't an uptake in the grid and you can't sell back to the grid for a large amount of money, you would then just mind Bitcoin with that energy. But then you would then switch to selling your energy to the grid. And then sometimes the wind dies. So it's very intermittent. If anything from Bitcoin, you know, we know from Bitcoin mining is your power source can't be intermittent. And this minus needs to be on a whole time just joking away. So maybe that's the only real interesting renewable for Bitcoin is that hydro mining where the river or the lake or whatever goes all the time. And you have batteries that are only a certain percentage. If your batteries are full, you switch it into Bitcoin mine. But like you say, Ben, if they're not mining enough, they're not ever going to win anything. They're just having clock cycles for no purpose. I think that in this podcast, I mean, I'm going to bastardize it out by by. But I think in the in the podcast, which was on what Bitcoin did, which is this idea of creating a carbon market around renewable Bitcoin mining. The idea was that for the mining operation, which was using renewables, they could bring in some extra money by selling. That as a sort of carbon credit scheme to these, you know, these funds, which have top zero carbon impact or something, but it's it's seen very hope you to me. It's very complex. They always stack things on top of each other. They don't actually just plant trees and turn off the pollution. There wasn't idea not too long ago, where I think Bitcoiners were going to buy a deactivated nuclear reactor, turn it back on, start producing nuclear waste in order to mine Bitcoin. You have to admire them. Martine Wishmare, what are your thoughts about the environment and Bitcoin yet again in the New York Times? Yeah, I'm not I'm just mining council stuff. I'm not really too impressed with that. It is interesting development that's since 2020. Let me see if we'll be nearly two thirds of all the renewables like wind and solar and other renewables, the table stream in 2020, where it's so 62% was cheaper than the cheapest new fossil fuel. According to the international renewable energy agency, I rena. So this is this is double what of 2019. So we can see that the cost of renewable energy is falling and you know Bitcoin is is based on greed. So what do people do? They take the cheapest electricity possible and even though you know the the the the the it has its its outages like you know at night there's no solar power but as Ben said, you know the miner needs to be on all the time. But there are ways around this you see that in a I believe Norway they use the wind energy the excess energy generated by wind energy to basically power pumps that pump water up to into a reservoir for a hydro plant. So they're using the the height difference in water level as a sort of like battery and that's pretty good because those you know other batteries that require lots of lithium and they don't store as much. And by just filling up that that reservoir for your hydro them, you can actually store it as I don't know kinetic energy. I don't know if I'm saying that right. But so there's is ways around that to take out the peaks of this of this renewable energy production. So yes, I'm optimistic. I'm not optimistic about whole micro sailor mountain mining council thing, but I'm definitely optimistic that within within a very few years. And more and more renewables come on the market and they will be cheaper than then you know gas and and and and and oil, especially at today's prices. Well, you know, that was the first time that the Bitcoin miners ever work together or thought about working together all of Bitcoin was really unstructured before Michael sailor arrived to give us all of the knowledge. And if you ever see anything that he tweets, that's the first time that's ever been thought of or tweeted all these ideas are brand new cutting edge. They're not five 10 years old. It's not like CNBC that just follows the latest trends. It's hip. It's with it. Dan, Eve, your thoughts on Bitcoin and the environment. When you when you initially said like the sailors mining mining guild, it reminded me of the famous actors guild for myself. Matt demon. But yeah, you know, so good points, Ray. I think my name is a really good point about there. The you get over the hump of the wind not blowing all the time by using on the sun, not shining all the time by using that for and specifically the most widespread, I think, but this kinetic, you know, energy storage is is in the uphill pumping of water. So you have two reservoirs that you just keep on pumping it, pump the water back up and that, you know, when when you've got excess energy and then you let it flow down and it acts as like a normal kind of hydro sort of, you know, hydro power plant essentially. So there's also there's loads of different quirky ways of storing energy in a inner, in a, what's the word in a, an environmentally friendly wave stuff from which isn't a really good idea for my season of critiques, but like storing it doing the similar to the hydro pumping up water uphill. But like using basically lifting giant weights. So like there's this thing which list giant concrete blocks and then and then it lets them go down slowly. But that's pretty poor. There's also well underground, like inflating caverns with air so that the air pressure, you know, increases like massively and then, and then they, you know, but these these are all kind of pipeline dreams. But battery storage is getting better like day by day, obviously it's still pretty bad for the environment. So there are there are lots of ways around it storing the energy outside of the working hours. But one of the things would be, you know, is that you obviously need an excess when you are producing. So it means that you can't use 100% in order to be able to store the energy. You can't use 100% of the energy on your mining. So you must, you know, you must have to have over capacity and consider a amount in order to be able to store the excess energy to have left to mine the power of miners. But I think the nuclear option. I think like, yeah, nuclear power is like pound for pound the best and I'll let you have the three, you've got like three mile island of Fukushima and obviously Chernobyl and they were bad. And I think like there are renewables of coal power plants and what that does to the environment compared to like the storage of nuclear waste. You know, there's a huge huge difference and you know that those previous reactors apart from Fukushima are like Chernobyl and stuff were like, you know, they were, they were like, I can't like level one a, you know, nuclear reactors and you're on like level three and four in shit now. I think this, I made up the four, I think there's three, but, but the other thing is that we're getting closer to nuclear fusion as well. So like, you know, there's all the the tockermack and stuff are trying to create nuclear fusion right now. Yeah, that's that's going to that's going to boost things and you know soon enough in the next 10 years. A lot of these arguments are going to be almost like out of window because we'll have so, you know, the solar panels would be that much more efficient and there'll be other kind of ways of storing the energy that will just make this argument a bit more null and void. But what it will do is it will dive the argument will evolve into well, fair enough it's using Bitcoin's using too much clean energy and we need to reuse that clean energy to do X Y Z. It needs to be used for something else. So the money people would just moan about something else basically. Dan makes a good point about nuclear power with a mic drop even I hope we caught that on the thing but a damage a good point about nuclear power. Previously I was concerned about where we're going to put the waste. We can't look exactly put it in a rocket and shoot it into the sun because of the rocket exploded that would be the end of everything we can dig underground and put it there but we don't like to do that. But in general, it is one of the best solutions for right now to get that carbon number down and I remember just an idea about this carbon thing. There's a thing called the weights glacier you need to look at and that the ice doesn't just melt like 3% a year. What happens is if this one large glacier breaks off then suddenly that piece of ice like it was in your drink is being melted from all sides. So it's going to melt a lot faster than it's going to break up again be melted from all sides it's going to melt a lot faster so we don't have that much time to get carbon neutral. That's why it's not just a percentage gain it's like all and then suddenly the whole bottom drops off but more importantly going back to Bitcoin miners exit question can we trust the Bitcoin miners to stay in one country after regulation has been put upon them. Or will the Bitcoin miners simply hop from country to country as regulation chases them then arc. Yeah, I think more more countries are starting to realize that they should have friendly Bitcoin mining policies actually in what else do I simply right now there's talks over trying to use renewables to my Bitcoin and as a friend of mine who's put together and I think it's only a couple of million quit which isn't much for watch assembly. To be able to run like a pilot scheme when they can have renewable mining in a way which is profitable and he had it so that the podcast with people come back on what Bitcoin did was with a guy called Troy cross. I didn't do what he said justice at all a lot of people were very excited by his concept of using these yes she markets and the carbon credit markets to be able to incentivizing game theory renewable mining so more people would do renewable mining because they would then be able to accumulate Bitcoin wealth and it would kind of get this negative feedback loop rate would then everyone will be racing to do more renewable mining hopefully that comes to pass. Bitcoin will you know who to thought Bitcoin will suddenly go from being you know the having the same carbon footprint of Greece and being the thing which is driving us rapidly towards extinction to the thing which then ultimately saves humanity in the planet and we all have a combined assistance after that so yeah check out that podcast with Troy cross it was very good and I feel bad I wasn't able to talk about what he said properly but yeah mining countries and the world is going to be a lot more important than that. Yeah more more countries are just becoming Bitcoin mining friendly and they're going to start taking as they reserve specifically if they can buy gas from Russia. Martin more countries Bitcoin mining friendly. Miners will go wherever they treated best but we see new initiatives like for example in the Netherlands there's one guy founded a company and they use the heat that it's coming like by product from mining Bitcoin to heat greenhouses traditionally the greenhouses have been using a liquefied gas to heat the greenhouses now they're switching to electric but it's cost. But it's costly so instead of just heating the place with electric eaters they are using a submers in liquid cooling submers a Bitcoin miners that he generated by the Bitcoin miners is going through a heat exchanger and is then blown into the greenhouse so I think you know we'll see Bitcoin mining everywhere eventually but if governments decide to. I try and ban it the miners will just back there are rigs and and move elsewhere you know it's fine Bitcoin mining is like like money it flows to wherever it's well treated. That reminds me of the origin of the word firewall gardeners in Britain wanted to grow these hot house plants like pineapples so they'd have fires next to their greenhouse but the fire from the thing next door would catch the greenhouse on fire. Hence they had to build a brick firewall between the two Dan Eve will the Bitcoin miners stay in one place of making regulation easy. I'm with with Martin they'll go where they're treating best and if that means that you know regulations obviously can impact that there's going to be bands the impact that if they come out the blue like a while say out of the blue like China who like we're like up and down like a yo-yo for years on Bitcoin then we're like right all mining ban but then all that happened was the miners just moved and got switched on elsewhere and we're now still pretty much near an all time high extra hash you know mining rate so. So it's just going to move wherever the money is or where the money isn't for the cost of electricity so yeah but whether whether laws do come into place though that if they do use renewables that those that that that they have to supply certain amount back to the grid or something you that's another story but again the miners have just moved somewhere where it's a bit more it's a bit more lenient but it won't matter because we're going to have a decent sphere. The pineapples that they made from these firewall hot house gardens were so expensive that you wouldn't eat them you could actually rent the pineapple and put it as a centerpiece at your dinner table to show people your great wealth. I will rent the pineapple. So I also say as a skeptic of the whole I don't do think the Bitcoin as a horrible carbon footprint and it's something which may not be tackled with these renewables personally why I still continue to think that Bitcoin is incredibly good idea is not as a valid transfer from one person to another but all the stuff you can do the Bitcoin transaction so you make a lightning channel you do thousands of transactions and you get an example of social scalability and actually then the amount of carbon you're using for all that economic through portfolio. So that's personally why regardless of whether we can use renewables to have clean mining why I still think Bitcoin ultimately is going to have a much better carbon footprint than all of these legacy institutions which require big buildings and all this stuff you know all this all this gold mining or whatever else and all the other things we have to do we don't want to be able to create this you know economic through the market. I think we could stop global warming with a firewall we just need a great firewall really big one could build some walls moving on to issue three El Salvador turns to Binance for help El Salvador seeking support on their volcano bonds this time from Binance the Bitcoin and cryptocurrency exchange. El Salvador has delayed the release of their volcano bonds as the Bitcoin prices down and they're worried about interest Ben Ark your thoughts on El Salvador by net and the volcano bonds. They're just going to kind of wait it out like the we all know the price of Bitcoin goes up like they did a big play. I can't play. I can't he was there pumping the price got the price really high. Start going about Bitcoin cities and then made a worth thing out of the skies of it nuts and a Bitcoin price dropped and we've been going down ever since and now we're picking back up again because you know actually it's a political money in the wall seems to need Bitcoin could you imagine if the price had gone up if he'd gone on stage with the backwards hat declared the volcano bonds and the price had gone up for an alternative universe right now. It's going to be the limit right this guy would be on time magazine he'd be the hero of the thing had had he gone up and said just like talked about all the amazing like who I didn't know anything about a Salvador be honest like I really didn't know anything about a Salvador I couldn't point out on a map right. However, the tourism industry was up they had all this amazing all these amazing innovative like cutting edge companies wanting to move into San Salvador. How do you turn around talked about that then said we're going to use this this capital which we've now got come into the country to improve San Salvador I said this before on the show like when I went to our Salvador San Salvador is a wonderful city beautiful and it just needs a little bit of investment and if it were invested and it could be like brilliant it could be it could be equivalent to any European city any you know. Modern functional European city with that investment but having gone stage and talk about this bitcoins city thing it was just such a bad play I think that that tweet he put out or that when he changes profile to see over our Salvador I think like he took that to heart and he thought he needs like pump you know the valuation of our Salvador by proposing this ridiculous product which was the Bitcoin city. But no I mean I'm selling contact with people who are like in our Salvador on the ground and what's very reassuring to me is the actual our Salvadoran citizens are still really excited about Bitcoin they understand that it's followed highly understand that there's a whole bunch of you know problems should be solved but they're still super excited about our Salvador and the very proud of the fact that their country was the first country to start implementing Bitcoin as you know as a city. As you know as a official medium of exchange as official currency so the price will go up and it's going to go up and then a lot of these worries are going to alleviate from the the our Salvadorian people but yeah I mean I suppose they're just trying to government are just trying to pull in what was confused about our Salvador thing as well as like for Kelly himself he seems quite glued up like he knows this stuff you know he says some cool things about the you know when in the US Steve in the US for example when they like. Inflate the price of the US D to do some fiscal stimulus and all these countries in such America they'll see any of those fiscal stimulus they just get the you know inflated currency I said I was a cool insight and he himself when I heard him speak has been despairing brain formed on Bitcoin but they say apparatus as it is I think like like the Chival wallet debacle has is made it quite easy to be critical of the our Salvador experiment but we're the price bumping up now I'm sure you know I'm sure you're going to be really happy and I'm sure you're going to be very happy with that. I'm sure this will just fall to the wayside and this now like this new you know by nuts trying to step in to save the doubt that law for by the wayside to people are excited about using Bitcoin in our Salvador and there's some great companies you know so I'm in Guatemala and some of the neighboring countries which are really helping make this make this thing work as well shout out to I back which one of these companies by the way really come me. I've been cynical and critical of this the whole time and one of the things I think then they have that first stream of money coming in and they could have just said hey companies move here we have an existing city we have a Bitcoin neighborhood they could have done all those things but they wouldn't have gotten that second stream of money coming in and you've got to get that second stream of money coming in because as they said in the Martin Scorsese movie casino it when you're in the counting room and all that money is going by God forbid. You should forget to steal that is and if you've got two money streams coming in you can steal so much more money you can skim it like right off the top right but that but that was that second wave of money that when I was in a so and honestly like the Bitcoin cover so much of the like in conference so much for the Salvador and there was some big companies are in the Bitcoin space worth a lot of money and you know have high valuations and I spoke to the CEO's I went for lunch with them and they were saying I might just move here I might just move to our server make so much sense you know we can we can spend what would the more Bitcoin make we'd have to pay these you know the tax is good here and it's good stuff a company here and then all that kind of felt by the wayside when it came up this Bitcoin city craziness it was like oh yeah no people just stay in the US for a little bit longer. It was quite a show Dan Eve your thoughts on El Salvador and not forgetting the steal. Well I think you got to keep the momentum going right because Bitcoin's part I went and obviously we're back up to 45k which isn't so hardcore off of the the five sixty sixty nine and but it is he's got to bring some excitement back and kind of keep the keep the dream alive right because there's there are people that have and they say is saying well they had their doubts about Bitcoin and all the Bitcoin's gone down since you know since some of those purchases and he was quite public about some of them as well. So you know they've got data points to be like oh you bought it so and so now it's gone down look what you've done blah blah blah when in actual fact it's as a as a whole like looking at that at the all the you know all the factors it's not just the Bitcoin price that they bought into but they brought a lot of investment into the country that they wouldn't have otherwise had there's as it was mentioned and I think it was in Martin all been said about the people that they're proud that the first Bitcoin country you know the first country to accept Bitcoin. That's kind of you know that's going to have a ring for a while right especially when Bitcoin eventually takes over the the world hardcore you know it's going to be like like room 77 became renowned for like the first bricks and more place to accept Bitcoin so you know Salvador's the first country to have its legal tender but you know I do like his quirkiness at the end of the day like it it's much more refreshing to say and maybe just from a bridge perspective but to have him on stage for cap. Backwards the job bubbling Boris with his fair everywhere and bottle waffle and you know and it's complete you know it's which is complete ball so and you know i'm not going to lie a lot of the world leaders I I pretty much despise right now and I think they're pretty suck but he's quite a funny guy I like you know the like touch as well when when when Bitcoin did have a big dump he was like oh so I won't be buying Bitcoin today then or something like that you know making making the joke of it and showing that you know it's so it's all right. It's not quite the fun but ultimately I think this move is going to do good for El Salvador and we know that we all know that four year rule so as long as they can kind of continue holding in in the reserves while they fend off the the IMF moaning at them for not using the dollar and and again the main thing that you know they aren't getting any advantages out of the dollar being printed into oblivion they're just getting inflated currencies as Ben said so it's like you know it's not good for them it's not good for them it's not good for them. You know I don't I also I've said before but like I think printing money is an act of war in itself printing money which you can use then as better purchasing power against other other economies is a is like you know it's it's cheating it's basically fucking if you're in if you're playing monopoly and like and like you're all trying to get you're not trying to buy their house and someone like lands on your tile and then like then like I'm not paying you and then like okay right well okay I'll just go. I'm going to print more money and then they pay you with that you're like you've ruined you've ruined the game the games facts you've literally just printed a load of money you tosser what have you done and so yeah I think printing money's printing money's bad and these countries need to get away from the dependency of money printing that doesn't actually benefit them so you know short term short term frustrating you know with the price dipping but long term I think it's you know it's going to have a it's going to have a good effect. Martin Wishmer. Yeah I'm not too much excited about the Hobbit Coin City project I think Ben in that aspect is is right you know better to invest it in in the existing city you know like Sun Salvador but I suspect there will be a friend of the family who owns that land which is really useless and worthless but now all of a sudden becomes prime real estate and make a nice fortune out of that about the whole finance thing I don't know what Binance is going to do I think the next step is to have a B&B coin legal tender in El Salvador and then those going I don't know that does sound like a good idea you know everyone comes to Bitcoin and like this Bitcoin's really great but I could attach something to it and whether it's Binance coin or El Salvador volcano bonds everyone wants to attach something to Bitcoin so they could make that extra sweet money. Who will be the first country though to accept Dogecoin is legal tender someone's got to do it that would be that would be great but when you look at the volumes so you look at the volumes of trade right compared to the actual market cap Dogecoin is like about 20% of 20% the volume is traded against its market cap whereas compared to like you know others that around like 2% to 5% max so weirdly Dogecoin is you know it is maybe not used in it in an actual constructively but people use it for like you know it's the biggest joking history and it's amazing. It's probably probably can buy a Russian oil with Dogecoin soon because they'll take anything going back to the country. I don't know about a country Dan but I could see a company like a pizza place or something taking Dogecoin putting out the advertisement we're the first to take Doge and you know putting the symbol throughout their restaurants they probably have to license the Doge symbol though they'd have to pay money for that. Go ahead Ben sorry I could show going back to you you mentioned of room 77 like a lot of cool stuff came out of the fact that there was a bar which accepted Bitcoin like the first Bitcoin wallet on a mobile not lightning wallet Bitcoin wallet the world was invented there because people wanted you know they didn't want to take the laptops to the bar to buy beer you know and like so much cool stuff came out this bar just continually accepting Bitcoin. I remember being with Christian roots of the most people let's move in the bar in our Salvador and we're on the rooftop bar lovely bar and I'm like this bar accept I said to roots of I was like look this bar accepts Bitcoin and then and then we turned around and we're like this fucking city except Bitcoin the amount of real world application and use case and feedback we get from a whole city and a whole country accepting Bitcoin really upside game and since then like the obvious thing whether there was payment rails are great the lightning stuff works great. It's great. Okay, Chiva wants to be shit but the lightning stuff works great. The problem is a price volatility we all know this right that the now everyone's happy because the price is high but the price is going to drop and everyone's on subsistence wage ultimately they need like something which is stable and there's been loads of work done now on people being able to access stable maybe a strange built on Bitcoin in our Salvador so the human rights foundation they had this big bounty for for that. And I think John Cavallo with seven them he recently did a tweet this week in fact which was sending usdt over lightning network and basically said the people of our Salvador will have like a stable coin the stable medium of exchange and the loss of Bitcoin and they could just swap in in and out as much as you know this is you know with us are savings and then this is what we're going to spend day today and then our subsistent wages and going to be really horribly affected by these price fluctuations by a little must tweets and I'm seeing more and more in a way that's going to be a lot of work done. I'm seeing more and more innovation in that in that realm have been able to provide and again again you know the Guatemalan company outbacks they're doing some great work on trying to be able to provide a stable coins stable medium of exchange which you're also using lightning so the use experiences exactly the same as if they're using Bitcoin and that's very exciting and that comes from actual real world implementation of Bitcoin as opposed to us all sitting around going on business Bitcoin great blah blah like this is what they need to do. And so you know we talk about these other coins which may be used in our Salvador I think ourselves was really going to drive this idea of like using stable coins built on Bitcoin using lightning network and gallery in fact are also doing some great work on this as well as the shots there but yeah that's that I found that's very exciting sort of next step for Bitcoin because that's to me like obviously Bitcoin ultimately we'll have enough liquidity that it'll be stable and we can just use Bitcoin as it is but I almost feel like we can't get to that stability on Bitcoin. Unless we have enough liquidity we don't get the liquidity unless it's stable so this is a nice way of doing that in the medium term of having these stable coins. Stable doge. So we need stable. It's been too far long we haven't had our stable doge as we're saying we talk a lot about the dictator in El Salvador and again you are a dictator if you seize power with the military you guys can read the Wikipedia article about it's not like if you do it once or twice but what about the people of El Salvador is Bitcoin good for them as Ben has been saying on Twitter here as an ex-teacher Ben is very excited about I back's Mercado and their 10 week Bitcoin diploma aimed at 16 to 17 year olds to first to be rolled out in El Salvador later the world teaching the financial literacy to engage and innovate on the world's future financial systems you can donate to this they have a tally coin that is going to be a big deal. So while they're maybe negative things politically this is helping the people what kind of advice and how are ways how can they profit and how can they succeed from this martin wish mayor go ahead. I think it's any education is good I sometimes find it difficult to explain Bitcoin and what 100 words to other people and especially when when like at the age of 16 or 17 you learn very fast so it is I think it's the best age group to start educating people you know like instead of telling them that they will own nothing. But they will be happy make them learn about Bitcoin I think it's fantastic I think anybody doing any educational project is yeah kudos to them yeah good thanks for the the the tweet mentioned bend also very good. I didn't answer your question that's fine it's also great for them to learn like martin said learning how to code learning how to do anything improving your own skills that's the stuff you can take with you that you can go from project to project doesn't have to be Bitcoin it's that that learning that knowledge and it is good for the kids here I hope so Dan Eve what about El Salvador and the people. What's the question again sorry. Oh what should the people do with Bitcoin what can they do to help them and also bends a cool program where they can get a diploma they can learn about Bitcoin they can like martin says they can become experts others my whole screen you can come experts at explaining Bitcoin to people and coding and stuff like that way think that the teaching side definitely is awesome right because I remember in school like I didn't learn about much about economics at actual school and no one never told me that if I if I saved money and got you know but I get interest on that money and then I get compound interest and stuff and you know it wasn't that like an Einstein like quote or something that he said something about compound interest is the greatest invention of humans or something like that. But you know what I want to know I'll teach you that they teach you just spend it and instead of like interested instead of saving it and what's the point in trying to save it anyway when the interest rates are like 0.25% or whatever there's you know there's you might you've got to put it into an asset that even if there's a bit risk of upside because there's only downside to fear, especially if you're only getting like you know 0.2% like 25% or whatever the inflation rate is more than that year. So you know you're losing money by just holding fear you know that's the downside. So any education process about Bitcoin not just from a technology perspective and talking about the stack and blockchain etc but from a monetary perspective I think the education parts you know it's good and they'll be getting a level up on on school kids around around these parts. But in general it's going to be hard for you know for the El Salvadorians who you know there was I think it was a couple of weeks ago we did there was an article where the guy was like yeah you know I did 40 dollars of sales on that day and then you know by the end of the day it was that 40 dollars was worth 30 or something like that you know within the end of the week or whatever. So everyone who's been who's on the Bitcoin roller coaster knows that you know your heart stops when you're as it suddenly jump 30% you've got everything you know all in because there's been a there's been a dip and you know it's the long term perspective that people are missing at that point you know it's the short term is oh shoot shoot it's gone down like 30% in a week but you know long term you know it's Bitcoin is an only upass it and that's financial advice it's not financial advice just just jump. I don't know how to arrange it but it would be great if the black Bitcoin billionaires if that club and the way that they teach people could also be taught to the people of El Salvador and the kids in this course like Dan was saying the idea of holding on to a little bit of Bitcoin as an asset and that you might actually have that compound interest you might actually have that value go up because Bitcoin is so limited because Bitcoin is new and all the other things like that are going to be a little bit more important. So that's the other things we talk about Bitcoin but Ben Ark we could tell the people don't use Chivo wallet hold your own keys don't forget to steal what else should the people of El Salvador do and what else can you tell us about this Bitcoin diploma program. The diploma program is going to be a 10 week course the same to 1617 years I've suggested that they emits 14 16 years because of in the UK kids can do school and the sorts of kids actually want to be engaged in Bitcoin a lot of them do school by the age of 16 and so is in Europe as well but it will be a 10 week diploma and it will sink in with you know sort of general key skills because I mean like learning about Bitcoin then it's also apply mathematics like we already said like a financial literacy but there's lots of key skills communication IT there's lots of key skills can be brought up and it's going to be a lot of things like that. It's a great diploma which they're working on and they've got good resources doing they've got a great team behind it as well with I've x and the sea of the that as everybody said that a great team and they'll do it well it also it will be like a free open source thing so they can roll it in our Salvador first they've got some schools on board because obviously they're you know it's there it's a currency but it will then be able to be used by anybody so you could take that course you can then go to your local you know educational authority and say look let's roll this thing out. Even if it's not Bitcoin like the the futures the world future economy is going to be digital payments native digital payments in some way or another and your teaching kids to how to innovate and how to engage within that ecosystem and it's permission list so they can you know build our own projects they can build on top of it's just an incredible educational tool and again like this hasn't happened with just us you know sitting around being all sci-fi about Bitcoin like it needs to be. Actually implemented in the country and then people are like okay well let's actually teach kids give them like a time we call so they can actually learn properly how this thing works and then teach them how the tools they need to get to innovate and build on top of this soft build on top of this stack so it's extremely exciting and anyone out there please yeah donate don't it's the course on tally coin big shot only again tally coin fantastic like it's great see tally coin being used for such a great project. I told you tally coin was a great idea. It could be used for good projects bad projects big ones small ones everyone should use tally coin it's the best moving on check out WCN clips on YouTube yes you could pause this show right now Google WCN clips and you could subscribe we're kind of recruiting subscribers one at a time now so there's 93 subscribers that's up one from last week so we're hoping that right now with about 10 15 people watching maybe 500 people total per episode we could get maybe five maybe seven eight people let's try to push this over 100 for WCN clips it's clips of this show people love JRE clips will you love WCN clips too. There we go it says that in the script moving on to issue four coin base sued for allegedly selling 79 so close unregistered crypto securities including XRP that just sounds wrong doge coin and sheba in you yes coin base going above and beyond the full cryptocurrency here with 79 alt coins and now their former investors are suing them martin wish mayor what do you think about coin base suddenly sued for imitating the full cryptocurrency. Well it's a bit of a shit coin circus in the in the past I would recommend people to just buy some coins at coin base but they on purpose like finance does distract people and then sell them I don't know unregulated securities I mean you can't do that so yeah I think you know it's not an exchange I will recommend I think they're doing great they're like you know stock exchange but they should just have a little button there that's like dark mode is settings but another button that says Bitcoin only and then ignore all the shit coins and it will make it more clear if far more clear into face people will not be distracted but yeah people that bought that stuff and then lost money and then now decide to sue I don't know it's just it's their own fault they should have pressed that by button but yeah well as a registered or publicly traded company I have to be careful with those things so yeah back to date yeah I don't know they did great but they turned into a shit coin casino that's all I want to say about it. As Martine said it's a shit coin circus but at least it's a circus and you have to love the part where they train you to use the altcoin stuff like the they'll pay you and you click on next and you select the boxes and you learn all about this altcoin and that convinces you to invest in it. So yeah I think they're in real trouble especially with their programs where they'll pay you in altcoin to learn about altcoin so that maybe you could invest in altcoin and we could get fees for that it seems like a good plan we even get fees when you sell even when you sell as a loser the company gets fees it's great it's great for the company it's bad for the user Dan Eve what about coin based selling 79 cryptocurrencies I'm going to go against the grain here and I'm going to say more okay people want to buy stuff let them buy stuff right like like you know it ended the day I know I know you know there's quite a few people that when when they when the when we Ethereum was just popping up and Bitcoin as we're going oh Ethereum's never going to amount to nothing it'll never be used blah blah blah and like they put me off buying or keeping Ethereum and I would be a gazillionaire right now so people don't want to be held back from being gazillionaire sort and so and so they're going to make fees off people buying Bitcoin anyway but you know it's up to people's choice right the whole point of Bitcoin is like a free market open system and yada yada yada so let people make mistakes as long as you're literally not outright scamming people if something's got a potential use case then you know one man's use case is another man's trash or one man's trash is another man's use case or something like that that you know that that not not everything is a scam and we've got to you know weed out the intentional scams for sure and get rid of them but you know yeah I'm not really I'm not really fast you know do do whatever makes you whatever makes you business as long as you're not being predatory and no one forces anyone to buy dogecoin it's just like a fad right you know people lose money off of random stuff all the time look how much people look how much money people are losing from just having money which is called fear money like that's a perma scam so you know surely surely having even dogecoin is a better bet than having all your money in fear you just got to do the same rule which is hold it and and if you I'm sure if you look to dogecoin the same four year rule probably roughly applies because of the fact that you know like things these things just a minute overseas not gonna last forever but yeah well I don't let people be free freedom to freedom to buy shit coins I don't care what do you call a gazillionaire in shiba in you homeless because there's no liquidity it's because you can't sell Ben Arck they've got 79 crypto currencies on coinbase is there room for one more I think the problem is when you have like legitimate projects and then you have these illegitimate projects and then coinbase says but it's got a wallpaper you can trust it and then these need to come in and then they get ripped off and they're kind of trusting coinbase as it is an exchange as opposed to a casino I mean I'm not sure whether the line is there but I guess they need to find that line regulatory wise but it would be nice if you had like a forced advisory fire regulations that they're warning this exchange has shit coins on it pick wisely or something and then they have to like put that on there I think with some exchanges like Polonia X or something like back in the day we all knew there were shit coins and that's cool whatever you can have fun mess around in the troll box and put somebody on the shit coins but you know when you have some like coinbase or a gem and I also something and then then they they have this kind of like legitimate authority and then there's some trust then that they use as the the products which they're promoting the legitimate products with liquidity and aren't just you know ridiculous shit coin databases pretending to be something that they're not but they have a white paper I think Ben Arck was the most sensitive thing Ben Arck was a pointer they should have a disclaimer like you know they're just like the cookie warning have this big poo emoji full screen and then you have to click okay so you are aware you are purchasing a shit coin and don't come back later they complain about it so we still have some free markets that be porn people I think it does say like experimental asset or something they do have some sort of label but it's not as it's not explicit that's like that's like breaking news everyone wants it everyone wants experimental asset Martin's a little harder with the shit coin because you'd have to say like I bought the shit coin intentionally I knew it was a shit coin but still I do think they'd see it anyway but then you know they're saying that you know that that lawsuit it sounds like they people that have lost right they they went into they bought those coin at like 75 cents and they sat there if their arms folded because they should have just bought Bitcoin and held it and it wouldn't have gone down as much and they were all stop here they're having and they're little stoppy pants and they spoke into their law and they're lost money and I think these are securities no so just you know they're and but and you know that wouldn't happen if they just had what had you know game loads of money but you know banks I could buy I could buy all sorts of I could buy all sorts of bank shares through my from my bank like and and they didn't like warn me that the share was complete hogwash like you know stuff that that folded or whatever because I'm on the not the not the the penance even better they'll they'll run commercials they'll run commercials all day on CNBC how you should buy this stock because electric cars are the hottest new thing and this is the hottest new stock and it's brand new and you got to get it and you'll be down like 70 80 percent like not laughing about it. Yeah nice bad people should be protected yeah but at the same time people should have the freedom to buy complete trash. Excellent excellent closing for this issue moving on to issue five US government spooks have cracked the anonymous Bitcoin was wallet was sobby yes things keep getting worse for wasabi wallet just a few weeks ago they were going to set check all of their transactions against a government or a provided list before they mix them now it turns out that it doesn't matter if they're mixing them at all wasabi did not use zero link technology they used something called peel coin where you could peel back the labels and find out where the money came from they also mixed dirty money with other dirty money making it very easy for this company again shane out analysis to track everyone who used wasabi including the Dow hacker who was tracked to his wallet. Martian wish Mary talk a lot about wasabi certainly seems to be raining shit on wasabi wallet. Yeah I think their business model was like providing anonymity and they no longer do and all the transactions ever made can be de-anonymized so yeah I think I'd be worried I think it's time for a rebrand and then re-vent the technology and you know but this this name is now a bit tainted and that's I feel a bit sad for the guys it probably you know really wanted to do well but they made mistakes so yeah I think the whole branding concept has got to go Japanese sounding names no longer inspire me to believe in privacy Dan Eve your thoughts on the wasabi conundrum yeah it is it's a shame right because it did try and bring an extra layer of privacy to Bitcoin but you know it sounds like yeah they made a wrong wrong move with pill chain instead of instead of zero link and the fact that it was cracked by you know chain analysis to analysis niche and just using general open source software as well that you'd have thought that they would they would there would be a bit more hardcore I suppose testing mean a penetration testing as if it could be called that from their side in terms of being able to to de-anonymize the transactions but it's a shame because it wasabi was a you know it was a cool brand I think they they they may be able to to put it off I'm not sure what the what the general direction is now they're going to implement zero link or you know I'm not sure what's happening now they're just going to go with having pre-analyzed you know transactions allowed to enter the pool but it does seem like the government's in general whilst they're kind of warming to Bitcoin they still don't like the idea of the the anonymity because they're not stupid they know that Bitcoin's a public ledger so they do like the traceability of it and and yeah maybe maybe privacy will come back into or will be a top a top line for Bitcoin once all the the once the government start adopting it and they don't want people seeing what where they're dirty transactions are going but yeah I think I hope they they pull it back wasabi because yeah it's a it's a cool brand I liked it I liked using the wallets a nice user experience so hopefully wasabi is no no sapuku well the government and Shane Nalessich both agree they love these privacy tech technologies especially when they're put out untested and people like the Dow hacker using them thinking that they work Ben Archer thoughts on yet another failure from wasabi wallet I got a filfenapara I mean like I think part of the problem is that we were in our little bubble where everyone's like oh yeah this technology is amazing we could do this and that and it's totally private blah blah blah and then suddenly it's like out in the real world it's being used by big hackers on this dial thing and it's being used on this and then suddenly we realize actually the technology is not quite there yet I also feel sorry for summer I wallet having their their logo on the on the on the header of the article as opposed to the wasabi logo because obviously wasabi is the issue and they're not not summer I saw where I wallet so it's kind of unfortunate that people might associate summer I with wasabi and summer I wonder once you actually implemented the right technology whereas wasabi implemented this peel and the peel thing as well I think it was like debunked in 2017 as being not particularly secure and able to use just regular normal food open sauce chain and I snitch to be able to figure out by the funds have come from and gone to hopefully this will just drive more energy I mean the people working on Bitcoin the goal is zero knowledge transactions it's it's it's me sending money to you and there's no way of proving like you can prove that you got the money and I can prove I sent the money but there's no way of proving that our transaction was between me and like for me to you like that's the goal and I've spoken to like and I've been you know when I've been in contact with with core developers that's that's the goal that's what we're working towards but then there's this kind of like around Bitcoin and Bitcoin culture there's this concept of you know the Bitcoin is perfect as it is now and the the the the being able to like track where all the coins go is a feature as opposed to something which is an attack on frangibility and that's just complete nonsense like we're targeting privacy that's what we want and that's what we need in order to be able to have fungibility so these things these wasabi's and these samurai wallet things they're just band-aids for now and they may do more damage than good when it comes to frangibility but yeah only use them if you have to again this is something I'm quite happy about is that hopefully less people will see this as just like a policy thing where they can enominize their coins and it's fine there's going to be no repercussions from that use it if you have to use that technology if you have to but you know be careful because you may end up having to launch your own money if you want to buy a house or something in a jurisdiction where you have to you know abide by anti-money ordering laws like in the UK and Europe for example but yeah privacy on trade that's what we need ultimately I think what what Ben is is trying to say that we should have the privacy built into the protocol layer of Bitcoin as opposed to what we currently do added to the application layer like the wallet layer so by having it in the protocol layer it would solve most of the problems and you know having it in the application layer will also create problems at exchanges but I say well why did you do this why did you try to enomize your transaction while if it's at the protocol layer it's like oh no there's nothing I didn't do anything it's just a Bitcoin transaction so yes I agree with Ben there it should be in the in the lower level of the protocol and not somewhere in the application that would be much better I definitely agree with that going back to this issue I know I agree with Ben I think that all the people involved wanted privacy they wanted the best for Bitcoin they wanted to build a good company it seems like they made this bad mistake early on and now they're kind of doomed the real important thing here is do you think we'll get Max Hilla Brand back on the show I want to bring back the Bitcoin predictor ball will we get Max Hilla Brand back on the show following the unfortunate demise of wasabi wallet here we go my sources say no damn I like Max Hilla Brand I'd like to see him back on the show moving on to issue six but the ball has spoken you know that's just how it is issues six the newest Bitcoin diet trend is hating seed oils yes that's right Bitcoiners love to eat only meat and now they love to hate seed oil as the article says from vice.com in addition to being a contrarian on monetary and financial matters you are probably also in terms of advice you get from the government or it seems like science nutrition anything Bitcoiners know everything and Bitcoiners know best Dan Eve seed oil is this the cause of all of our problems no I mean I have read research that he's heard of it I'm not saying I read it I made read the summary you know but there's there's there's lots of different research that there's always a study that points towards something being bad then there's another one that counts as it and says that it's good and a Bitcoin has kind of had this natural inclination to to be against what's kind of not state and the state mandated or state kind of forced or encouraged and whilst there's kind of you know it's in certain areas there's conspiracy theory ask kind of reasons or you know it's a while people you know would hate on seed oils the fact is that money drives a lot of stuff and and the lobbying especially in the US where you know something can be put through there's maybe not for a government and encouraged to whatever that's not so good for you you know that's that's happened before it's not something that's completely out of this world and a crazy idea that's kind of you know money makes people do things that they wouldn't otherwise normally do but it does seem like it's a bit of like a you know a a a fad sort of thing like the you know the carnival thing and it's like it's it's a part of the club right so you're like you know the Bitcoiners checklist it's like right I'm I'm into Bitcoin now okay so I'm in so I'm a carnival and I hate and I hate seed oils and and you know they've got the little list of stuff and and you know you don't have to be into everything that some of the prominent Bitcoiners are you know you can still like seed oils will not really agree with what their reasons against them you know do your own research right that's what that's what everyone says when it comes to get gaming into Bitcoin is like do your research on Bitcoin and then you know you go down the rabbit hole obviously sometimes with the information on the internet there's crazy stuff crazy rabbit holes but you know you've got to try and apply a bit of critical thinking to whatever source you're reading and think about the bias of your sources you know even though the bicycle you know gently at very very balanced article talking about some of the pros and cons of seed oils and did focus a bit on some of the crazy people that are kind of pushing it like I think at some point it went off the tangent into eugenics and all sorts of crazy stuff and you know that's that's obviously you know kind of a bit of the you know argument add a add Hitler sort of thing but you know at the end of the day the article was quite balanced and yeah I've read some dodgy stuff on seed oils but I've read some dodgy stuff on other stuff personally I'm a olive oil man all about the olive oil it is a lot like punk rock right Dan all these people are individuals and they're all unique and they're all punks so they're all gonna go get leather jackets and they're all gonna get mohawks and every punk has to dress the same and that's not very punk yeah they're all the same they're all like individual and unique all the same punks and I'm also I know there's so the unique I'm so sad to see Bitcoin I used to think it was like like cyber punks like these you know people on the internet with their complex encryption and all that stuff and now it's become the lone gunman like ex files where it's just these people that are kind of posters and followers and they question everything and maybe they're being confused by other people as it says here I think that the ven diagram is forming around seed oils and the different circles are ancestral health keto carnivore paleo and Bitcoin so again we've gone from being cyberpunk to being libertarian to now being we will believe in anything are we going to be flat earthers yet are we a globe tard then are you a globe tard or are you a flat earther I mean I say we and like us like here like with Bitcoin this like we've been around for a while and none of us associate health diet dietary requirements with Bitcoin's like associating it is interesting how we're able to use a computer program about money and not have it influence our dietary habits yeah that's been a fascinating disconnect where you could be a vegetarian and watch this show or a vegan or you can eat only chips you can do whatever you want we don't seem to care it's fascinating isn't it it's the same with like tour email like in ftp whatever man everyone knows the email user's only eat grapefruit and we all know that like I guess it's people that wanted to wanting to establish culture shared culture and then being part of a club and then it gives them kind of association that gives them some some sense of being and and like they're part of something but it can kind of become this mob I think that Bitcoin quote unquote community is it kicks back on it quite hard like you know the safety and fear bad fear fear like fear me feel food fear whatever like all that nonsense is is is more and more just just being sidelined and this this kind of oil thing now is like a a death rattle of all that it's important to like examine the stuff you put in in your body that's a good thing but yeah you can you can more or less anytime that there's a belief system which tells you how to eat then that's kind of like an extreme belief system you know so so that you can probably vary away from it's just a protocol it's a money protocol we'll just want to secure like money better in a way which is outside of censorship and then you know these people want to build this like dietary culture around it then fair enough but don't do this no true scotsman of well you know a true Bitcoin if unless you eat fucking only lambs I'm surprised that I'm surprised that there's not like like little cooking workshops that are spraying up at these Bitcoin events so like after you've gone and listened to a lecture you can go and make some there are there are you can do that that oh yeah because he gets he's stupid like steak dinner's currently you can pay a fucking thousand dollars right yeah thanks to Jimmy song you need a steak you know oh and sadly it does seem like it does seem like the same people are pushing these group identity ideas as Ben said that if we don't have a culture and it's a blank slate then I can say Bitcoin and carnivory suddenly we all eat meat Bitcoin and America suddenly we're all American Bitcoin and God suddenly we only believe in the Christian God we're not a multi-faith type thing all of these things limit us I feel by trying to make these smaller groups empowered and we see it again and again and again still waiting for Bitcoin and the flat birthers martin wish mayor what do you think about our shared culture suddenly having very extreme dietary restrictions almost like you want to be part of the cheerleading squad you have to have a certain weight limit to get into Bitcoin yeah I find it fascinating I'm looking at it from a distance because I don't really want to be part of any club really but it is it is it's strange to see that like the telegram groups I was following until recently they were all about Bitcoin for years ago and then he became all and well we were right about Bitcoin price went up so we probably write about just eating meat we're probably right about that mask basically suffocate everyone and it's just a hidden political agenda you know and all this all this stuff it just it just it just distracts me so much and it annoys me it distracts me from what we're really about we're about Bitcoin I don't care how many times per per year you have to take a you know visit the bathroom or I don't care what you eat I don't care whether you put extra canola oil in here in your cell it I don't care I just care about Bitcoin and maybe that makes us like bit outsiders maybe in a way on the other hand I think the most people they they're not like that it's just that the folk very focal minority that just you know starts protesting in the street like no more rapeseed oils no more canola seeds you know we are we we're all white with beds so maybe if you're if you want to be a Bitcoin you're gonna be white and have a bed like that's the thing I just did that because it gives me like a sort of wizardry like type of like expression and maybe maybe we aren't seeing the the the ability to cash in here we need to be having well can you can't even say those words but we should have special clubs for people with beards which again it's awful you can't even say these things but there are on Facebook actually I'm John Sefer all of them all all true all true bit coars have beards everyone knows all true there goes all the women they just turned out right now you know it's got a beard oil tips and you know like trimming tips everything but it's like yeah and all the lights right over because you know you're gonna need beard oil for your Bitcoin minor you can just use these you know there's a lot of like similarities and crossovers maybe we can you seat oils to to to soften our beards I still love that that fake advertisement from fight club where they painted over it and it says did you know you can use old motor oil to water your lawn right killer well I think we're running out of time here exit question I don't know what is with these Bitcoiners and their alternative diet theories is this is this a fab that's going to continue is this part of becoming mainstream is it something about the bit corners that they just believe in everything and anything and lizard people let's go to Ben Ark you look ready yeah it's just it's just trying to grab onto culture I wasn't ready it's just trying to grab onto some sort of culture and identity and then claiming that they're a bit coina like they're a true bit coina is the noteworthy discussion thing I'm a true Bitcoin because they only maybe lambs and they're going to see oil and I'm a male white male with a beard so like that's that's the that's the that's the that's the like you said as well it's also ultimately like hypocrisy because often the sorts of people who are driven to Bitcoin are distanced and they're disenfranchised with the sort of society in general at large and it's a shame that they then have to feel that they need to build this kind of culture and around themselves which then boxes themselves in and their ability to think freely but yeah it's nonsense Ben what do you think about the anger of these people when you violate their shared culture like right here on this show you probably assume that because I'm a Bitcoiner that I eat only meat so if I come out and I'm like I eat vegetables not not enough but I need to eat more like I like you say the no-too-bit-coiner thing they can burn me down right because I eat vegetables or because you're liberal or whatever like everyone has these preconceived ideas and they get upset when you violate them I think just look at the people actually working on Bitcoin and like look at the actual people you've been working on Bitcoin for a while and doing being in the Bitcoin space for a while and there's not much support for this nonsense it's kind of a mob cultural rhetoric mentality which and it's a death rattle like it's becoming something it's taking less precedence now than it used to the sort of safety mob screw them and like they'll fall by the way side it's the people's money for everybody you know whatever vegan whatever Grakham Dan Eve no-too-bit-coiner could eat seed oil or enjoy vegetables I think it's just part of this this ever growing need for people to be in a special club right like and and and have and also this this we've been growing more you know the society's been growing more towards like being have you know who's the most morally superior and like you know and it's one of those things right it's like it's just it's just another club for for people to be in and you know maybe another thing to chat to people at conferences for you know they so they can have a little seed oil no seed oil section and maybe they go to with with with pickets as well they actually have no seed oils they're outside and then you know they eventually if they have a little mark on their badge it says like no seed oil you know not to give them any seed oil you have to work people they had a different they've got a Bitcoin flag but it's got a new thing on it to say no seed oil is like that and I don't know it's it's just another like a lot of fad really but yeah I think that they made a good point in the article that it's you know Bitcoin must have a natural distrust in in in the government because the government made the fear the fear is the bullshit so you know that if there's anything that's state endorsed or encouraged by it the people are naturally in Bitcoin they're like questioning it and whilst critical thinking is obviously it's good you you need it you know you also have to apply critical thinking to someone who is telling you to apply critical thinking right you know critical thinking has to happen everywhere not just from someone telling you you need to think critically about something else so as long as you apply it unilaterally then you know you you you will level up but if you just treat certain sources as gold star you know trust you trust and not verify then you know you're and you need to apply your critical thinking liberally in order to you know to have the best balance Martín I think you were on to something earlier you said if you were right about Bitcoin this means you must be right about everything else a lot of people seem to believe this how can we convince them otherwise I'm not a person to convince them you know just like I I never tell people I stop telling people to buy Bitcoin you know like I'm not I'm not giving financial advice I'm not giving dietary advice either but I think it's because they were right about Bitcoin they considered themselves a diet diet diet is dietary in I don't know what it's called a dietitian dietitian or a virus expert or yeah they're or health experts so I think it's just it's just nonsense about you know I might be wrong you know maybe rapeseed oil and soy soy is really like you know the oil of like evil and it should be banned but I like my soy drink in the morning and I'm okay with it but you know don't just don't know no no dietary advice and if I meet people on a Bitcoin meetup and it's they start about these things then I just turn around to walk away I'm really I don't have any time for this well as you know Martín I only drink rain water and pure grain alcohol they've been putting fluoride into the water and destroying our purity of essence it's good for your teeth the fluoride fluoride it's good it makes you quiet keeps you quiet in school yes doctor strange love we cannot allow a mind shaft gap but moving on to story of the week or prediction let's go prediction Dan Eve predict the future I'm going to Bitcoin up I think we're on a little mini mini mini bull run I think we might we might you know go even go to like 50k maybe some positive news about about about the the Russia situation could could help things kind of you know could could help things a lot because once you know there's a bit more clat less uncertainty and fear of looming war nuclear war and both sides have put cases forward as to why Bitcoin would be good for them maybe we'll just be like they'll just be like hey I'm sorry I invaded Ukraine let's just all agree that Bitcoin fucking rocks Bitcoin brings world peace martín wish mayor that's hard to follow to have a prediction other than Bitcoin and world peace I think I think we will see Bitcoin hitting the 80k mark within a few months I wouldn't surprise me at all inflation is very high dose so by that time it's probably it's probably just enough to buy a cheeseburger at McDonald's without a bun because that's one contains trans fats in my dips you know seed oil seed oil yes that like that that classic mean martín where the guy has the matrix and he's like will I need to sell my bitcoins for millions it's like in the future you won't even have to but yes it will be worth a hamburger Ben arc we've got the price of Bitcoin going up we've got world peace do you have a prediction maybe something about music or sports no not said oh wait a world peace I think I'm hit on that now on the head I think world peace I think Bitcoin is going to create world peace we'll all share the same yeah world currency and then that'll be world peace it's beautiful and only took us 301 episodes to solve it and again we want to celebrate the 301 episode once again I'll talk about it every single episode no we're not going to do that but I want to thank Theo and Blake and MK and Kristoff Atlas and everyone else Gabriel divine all the other people that I forgot tone Jimmy everybody in case I didn't mention you a mentioning board people all right Dan Eve story of the week obviously the 301st episode the impressive ability of us to continue beyond 300 that's what you're focused on this week Dan yes yeah yeah that just that because yeah I don't have any other cool stories apart from the fact that I'm still honored and excited to be a part of the show that's been so you know because again we've been this 300 episodes but then once a week and there's only 52 weeks a year so that's a long time you know and I haven't been in from the start but I've been in the last the last few and yeah it's a great honor so I think I remember the 200 fact yeah I think I was here around for the 200s so it's even more incredible that you're still having me on for the 300s so thanks I think this tradition of the the grappling at the end definitely needs to continue for all of the 300 dot dot dot episodes we need to do a thank you section at the end Martín Wishmer do you have a story of the week or you just also impressed our ability to plus one to 300 you know the the the I am impressed with your ability to constantly keep pushing everybody to be on the show because you have definitely been the driving force for the past the 300 and one episodes for story of the week what we're getting ready for Miami so I hope we get to see and meet all the viewers in in Miami it will be nice to just you know talk Bitcoin no dietary advice please but just Bitcoin on the Bitcoin only event in Miami so I hope to see you all there they only eat seaweed and they like fruit that's fallen off the tree they're fruitarians now Ben Arck's story of the week are you muted all of it lost and I enabled sorry I swore that as well and that could you please enable the screen showing sir disabled all right enabled I mean oh well the story of the week is the can you see my screen you can see my screen yeah yeah yeah yeah on the wrong thing here okay yeah you can see this currently okay so this week I've been engaged with the shop the web bolt-thread hackathon which is by the Bitcoin design community and it's been great they've done a online hackathon which is going on until the 28th of this month Monday and I get I got to do a talk on Alan Bitts which is great there are lots of people who are interested in incorporating Alan Bitts into their projects and just some great projects people building so it's still going on so if anyone's interested and join hackathon it's free to join when you join you get to join the slack and then in the slack I didn't realise that these Bitcoin design community their slack is huge it has like look at about 2000 almost 3000 members on there it's it's a whole world which I didn't even realise existed if obviously you know if you've got a project and you want some design input then there's this great Bitcoin design community experts you can help you on that and then also on the bolt-thread hackathon there's a whole thread on there which you can join in on and there's been some great talks some great projects involved in it it's been a real pleasure so that's yeah that's been my story of the week is it's been involved on the shop the web bolt-thread hackathon it's been great and it's still going on so you know join in and there's there is also some cash prizes as well so for people building on top of lightning network the first prize is you know a decent size price so if you've got a project with your building we've been building and you think you could you can cooperate in the bolt-thread hackathon then please do and grab those stats that sounds like a great event thanks Ben for sharing it with us I also want to thank Vortex good old Vortex and as it says in the chat the Bitcoin Rodeum guy was Andy Hoffman and I want to thank Andy too and as I said at the time especially when I interviewed him if you go back and watch it he was going to teach us all a lesson with that Bitcoin Rodeum everyone falls for an altcoin sometimes but like they say in tropic thunder and you can't say any for you can't go 100% altcoin right you can't go full altcoin and he did and it was very sad because he went from a hardcore gold bug to a Bitcoin maybe then hardcore Bitcoin and then hardcore random coin that was paying him yeah so he was a cool guy though Andy Hoffman like I kind of feels I mean he popped up like I think I was watching a Bitcoin documentary he popped up the silver next but you know from from that time and it's a shame on because he's been building his profile and he could have had a lot of time and the things he was saying about Bitcoin were so correct he was absolutely correct but then it's so hard to keep your investment thesis and I know Blake used to say this all the time as well he'd say you just have to have a longer time horizon you know you just have to hold your coins longer and then you know sadly I don't know that Blake was able to hold his coins that long like people have the right idea but actually implementing it as a martin was saying about the board apes and everyone wants to be in a club those board ape guys I almost put it on the show but they raised I want to say 450 million dollars giving them a 4.5 billion dollar evaluation for their club so there is something about people wanting to be members of a club and wanting to join things if we talked about here with Bitcoin and and it's easier to join I guess if you can just say well we go to dinner together we eat the same food we're all the same it makes us good joiners or we could just arbitrarily say that we're Bitcoin and suddenly we're a family and we can discuss things and disagree with each other and learn from each other like a family we don't have to be this new hardcore thing where you cancel everyone you disagree with but what's great about Bitcoin is that you know hopefully as it plots on and as it incorporates you know lightning and all these other technologies a lot of these people just come back you know like we want them all back you know I know that the Andy Halfman's and the vortex is they were always kind of I mean many Andy Halfman but the vortex is very true to the Bitcoin and I agree we welcome them back we'll forgive every shit corner everybody makes mistakes and they're always welcome to join Bitcoin again and maybe that should be our new Venn diagram for Bitcoin that Bitcoin pointers are forgiving Bitcoiners understand if you sold at the wrong time or you bought at the wrong time or you got into an altcoin or whatever it is Bitcoiners like yeah we've all been there we've all learned from that we've all had to learn all kinds of horrible lessons winning money losing money being at the right time in the wrong time and the thing about the Bitcoin family that brings you back to Bitcoin is that Bitcoin forgiveness there's an idea we can all get behind too bad we haven't written a clever book Bitcoin and forgiveness that we could sell you right now for 999 99 we could have we could have really probably I know 999 we could have really and we had a seminar damn we just a special I got I got to I could forgive Bitcoin to give us dinner if anyone's on the Bitcoin forgiveness dinner in BTC Miami in BTC 22 I'll be doing a Bitcoin forgiveness dinner well we'll just be in avocados so yeah please come to the Bitcoin forgiveness dinner well and we all need it too everyone you're all forgiven for not buying Bitcoin earlier for being a new Bitcoiner for selling your Bitcoin at the wrong time for buying the altcoin all forgiven all right now the ball has blessed the I think we're running out of time for this show do you guys have anything else to add anything we didn't get to complete silence literally everything we covered everything we it's all said even the 4.5 billion dollar evaluation of that joke collectible thing yeah billion dan jav work ahead oh it's just gonna say thanks for watching and thanks for the thumbs and have a quick break thanks for subscribing and until next time bye bye