The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Adam McBride, NFT archaeologist. What's up everyone? Michael Dupree from EasyBit. You know, unmute yourself. Hello, everyone. Great to be on the 300th episode. Oh my God. Mike Dupree from EasyBit here in Acapulco. Great to see everyone. Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. This is Bitcoin. Martin Wishmare from General Bites. Howdy Ho. I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one bit the next bitmex founder predicts gold rising to 10k Bitcoin, marching to one million dollars. The price of Bitcoin has been down lately while the price is gold has been up. But now they're saying that both gold and Bitcoin could skyrocket. Adam McBride, everyone loves the price of Bitcoin. What can you tell us about the price? Well, you see, if you read that article, really nice article actually, what he puts in it is basically. We're talking about Arthur Hayes, right? Yeah, it's brilliant, brilliant man. Yep, he certainly is. And he made a really interesting point, which is like, look, the world seeing now individuals are seeing that these governments aren't necessarily to be trusted, right? Workers in Canada, they'll take your bank account, no court order, just grab it, right? And with the Russians, governments' money being frozen through the Swift network and this sort of stuff, his point was like, look, now countries around the world are seeing that their assets can be frozen. So they're going to look to diversify, and the places to diversify are gold and Bitcoin. I think that Putin is also seizing Biden's assets, but Biden is a junior. And so their seizing is dead father's assets at this point was on the list, but yeah. Yep, so the theory, it's an interesting one. I hadn't thought about that, about that carryover or what kind of a precedent's been set. And it's an interesting theory, who knows if it'll happen. But if it does, if these kind of countries start moving into Bitcoin as a store of value or something, oh my god, forget it, it's crazy time. I think the bigger problem for us is if they move away from the Swift network, which the United States basically controls, and they create their own, then it's going to be a big problem for us. But we're getting off topic, I apologize. Mike, to pre your thoughts on Bitcoin and if governments could use it as a store of value. I don't know, like El Salvador is certainly trying to and I was down there a few months ago at the conference talking about anti-money laundering and these kind of things. And I'm really excited with the ideas that they're trying to execute, but it's a bit disconcerning at points whether or not they're going to actually fuck it up and make Bitcoin look bad for lack of better words. So it's not as easy as it looks necessarily. But I think that governmental involvement in Bitcoin is good, but I think that El Salvador has the potential to have factual reserve Bitcoin since they only allow a lightning network within their ATMs and their exchanges, for example. So I think the jury is really still out over there. Dan Eve, Bitcoin to $1 million? Well, I think so and eventually I think maybe not in the short term. But the gold situation is getting crazy. It's near another all time high. You've got China and Russia have been stacking gold for a few years now. In the UK, just over 20 years ago, Gordon Brown sold off almost half of the UK's gold and got a measly $275 an ounce. So it's kind of another Bitcoin pizza sort of situation where he sold it for $3.5 billion versus about $16.7 billion now, which is crazy. But I think that Bitcoin's on its way up. Obviously we're in a bit of a sideways market at the moment, but there seems to be hints of another bunch of checks coming, right? You know, a stimulus checks coming from the US and we all know what happened last time and once we were actually used to buy Bitcoin, which is obviously really cool. But the general is kind of ironic that our United States ATM average transaction is currently $1200. I know the stimulus checks were an age, ages ago, but literally right now it's still $1200 average. But that could be because people literally were saving those checks. Like, I'm going to save this check for a rainy day because it's not in my account and therefore it can't be taken out by direct debit or whatever. So they'll save that stimulus check. And now they're finally thinking, actually, they're printing so much of this. I might as well put it into Bitcoin because remember what happened last time, they bought the they bought Bitcoin with the stimulus checks when it was what like $9,000 or something in 2020 and it's now 40, you know, and was 68. But yeah, it does seem like the US dollars kind of could potentially is losing its hold right now, even like Saudi Arabia wants to sell oil in Chinese one. Russia to India oil exports, the India is kind of crossing over you. In current scenes, sort of the US dollar. So it's kind of almost setting the stage for the Chinese one as the digital dollar, right? Which is what they've been kind of working at right now. And this kind of this turmoil and the sanctions on Russia, you know, Russia is still selling that oil. It's just going through different sort of avenues. And you know, obviously they've got other other issues with their assets frozen. But like I read that rather than, you know, obviously Europe, US just cutting off the oil supply from Russia, it's being sold elsewhere. And then that's being sold at a premium back to the US and other areas in the Europe. So it's finding a way to get back because at the end of the day, there is a dependence on energy on Russia. They're the biggest energy. What do you think about though, like Elon saying, Hey, like America, wake up, we need to start producing more of our own oil. But yeah, well, very sensible because as much of, you know, the guy that the facts is, I kind of respect his crazy stuff, but I respect them that their Tesla's technology is open source. So if anyone can do it better, you know, he wants the state of energy ultimately. And he knows that if he revolutionizes the energy economy, we just don't want him promoting doggy coin and such and fucking around with our financial markets. That's right. Exactly. No, no doggy coin, no doggy coin. Well, I think that, you know, if you, if you haven't got a chance to read the article, I think he pretty much summarizes with really poetic little finish, which is remember this, you own nothing, you merely rent your net worth both as an individual or soren, a sovereign from the entity that operates that centralized permission, fear digital monetary network, or you're referring to Swift and co. And so, you know, the fact is that again, going back to this whole premise of you, if you don't own your private keys, you don't own your Bitcoin and your monies in other people's hands right now, your money. That's the issue in El Salvador with the Chivo network. You don't hold your keys, though, you don't own your Bitcoin. Yeah, because it's not, it's kind of they're using a permission, permission lightning network, right? It's not, it's not people running their own notes. So yeah, yeah, correct. And all has to be administered to the government. So it's free and they allow you to interchange, but it's not really your own private keys. There you go. So Bitcoin is bringing a lot of freedom there to El Salvador. Oh, we got to Martin. Maybe Russia will trade their oil for a Bitcoin, only 21 million units, quite a collectible still. I don't know, I read the article and, you know, every time somebody wants attention, they just add an extra zero to the projected Bitcoin price. So yes, he's obviously very, very smart man, but, you know, and even if it's more than zeroes, you add the smarter you get. Yeah, and if you add the most zeros, you'll end up in Forbes or something. So it's, it's, I don't know, every time I see that, say, sure, eventually the Bitcoin will be worth maybe one million. But by that time, it's just enough to buy a cheeseburger at McDonald's. So, you know, because the inflation is catching up to, I'm not really, I'm not really impressed by those projections. And yes, sure, the prices are going up and Russia, apparently, is one of the world's largest gold producers, but they can't access half of their gold. So I'm really curious, where is their gold stored? Not in Russia itself then, that they gave the gold to the Swiss or what happened here, you know, and that's, you know, I couldn't find that information. I tried researching it, but it's, nobody knows, but Russian gold is, maybe it's in cool. Really? Josh is confiscated in Voltoro. It's probably a lot of money. Yeah, it's all in all four of them. I think it is really important to note, though, that in the previous years when Arthur has made these predictions, he's actually very, very smart. Like I met him probably seven or eight years ago. I don't know exactly when in Hong Kong. And he's just like, he's not someone that doesn't know his math and his numbers. So I know that everyone, anyone can say, oh, gold's going to 10K and Bitcoin's going to a million and whatever else. But I feel like Arthur actually has a finger on the pulse and BitMex is not a small exchange and some of the things they've done are really cool. So I wouldn't underestimate his opinion. He's been right many times in the past, a few other times. It's just that there is no time frame set on the prediction. So when there is no time frame set on the prediction, I'm not really impressed with the prediction because it's like, you know, sure, it's been a thousand years of dollars. Exactly. And oh, yeah, Arthur was right all along. Yeah. So yeah. I'm just being that in general, he has a good idea of what's going on. And he's a really smart guy. And I think he's personally valuing or benefiting from trying to make these predictions. Anybody who uses that prediction and then trade some BitMex will probably end up wrecked, you know, going 50 times leverage or something. It's also a report that on Twitter, Plan B has come back and says that Bitcoin is still within the range. And if it just goes up like crazy, he'll be back on board and the Plan B theory will be good to go. Yeah. But until then he's an anti-virus expert or something, COVID expert. I stopped following the tweets. Sorry to Plumbe if you're listening, but, you know, I followed you for your predictions and not the COVID advice. He was very upset at the Netherlands and their attempts to get control over COVID. Now it's the time everyone's been waiting for the Bitcoin predictor ball. Adam McBride will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week. Oh, hire my friend. But did you hear, man? A million, dude. A million. That's the prediction. What do you do? And of course it's going to be higher. What does the ball say? Mike Dupree. It's going to zero, but I won't tell you when. I guess I guess lower for the purposes of one week. Yeah, I guess lower. We've got a higher and a lower so far. Dan, if where are you going to go? Well, I don't think it's quite going to hit a million very, very soon. But I'm going on the same train track as the mystic Arthur Hayes. And I'm going to go higher this week. Because I think we're on a little many, many, many fake ball run. Martin Wishmeyer. Definitely higher. It's been going up for days now. So I or we will, we'll go. Now I have it on good authority from the chat that this is everyone's favorite part of the show. So we are going to go all out here and turn off all my virtual backgrounds. Get ready. Here we go for the magic eight ball. Yes, you can see it right here being shaken. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? And it is, it is certain. It is certain. The ball has spoken. Moving on to issue two issue two, the freedom convoy of Bitcoin donations have been frozen and seized Bitcoin was supposed to be a financial lifeline for vaccine mandate protesters in Canada. That has an exactly worked out to plan. Yes, one of the members of the group was holding on to the Bitcoin getting ready to distribute it to the truckers. When suddenly it was seized by the Canadian government, Mike Dupree, what do you think about the attempt to raise Bitcoin donations for truckers in Canada and how it spectacularly failed as predicted on this show? I think it is ridiculous. I think there was already some dows and some Bitcoin donations and crypto donations both for Ukraine and for the Canadian truckers. Like this go fund me people who arbitrarily, they didn't even refund everyone initially. They just arbitrarily froze their money as a custodian of Bitcoin with the ATMs at points. If we did that, they would throw my ass in jail. So I don't understand how it is acceptable at all. Let's use dows. Let's find ways to raise money through Bitcoin and crypto and keep it from being frozen. It's absolutely ridiculous. They would freeze. If you know who the people are that are giving you the money and you're sure they want to give the money to these truckers, fuck and give it to them. It's not illegal. It shouldn't be illegal. I think it's ridiculous. That was pretty awesome when they froze the go fund me money. Sure it's one thing to refund it to give them the money back. But another thing to freeze it and say that's bad money. You're bad money. Dan Eve, your thoughts about the exciting. Exactly. I'm putting you with you more. Sorry. I'm getting you to wrap. Sure thing. Dan Eve, your thoughts on the fundraiser gone wrong. Well, I think the part of it that went wrong was because obviously Bitcoin is censorship resistant money. But obviously that's completely peer-to-peer and wild-widen. Yada, yada, yada, and it's hard. Hard money. But this particular method still relied on third pints. That's always where the kink in the chain is. As much as they're really well organized and there was a 25 page dossier on how the distribution method was going to work. And they were going to smash the printer with the sharpest pruning. Yeah, dude. Like they're going to wipe their iPhones twice and then chop them up into little bits and then microwave them. I'm like, dude, that seems like a little overkill. But I don't know. I got to go to Martin. Like, Martin, is that overkill? Or can I just wipe my phone and then chop it up with pliers? Like, how much do I need to do? I'm pretty sure. I can't find my data. I'm pretty sure. How much do I have to do? Reset to effects resetting. Several probably do enough. The job. They recommended two resets. Get this two resets to factory settings. Dan, did you read this? Two resets. I don't even matter. Because Facebook and Apple and everybody else already have copies of every message and every so I mean, it's not like your physical device even matters that much, right? I'm not sure. But I said we wouldn't trust that they don't have. Yeah. They would have had to use a messaging service and there's probably, you know, in ways that if that being that into and messaging being compromised, especially if it was shared as multiple parties and then if one person, you know, drops the ball, then that drops the ball for everyone's, you know, messages essentially. So yeah, it was cool. I actually think that they did it slightly the wrong way around in that the distributed effort should have been done first, like going out to these truckers at the protest, getting them to set up wallets and then people would donate for, you know, wallets and they would have like a stack of these wallets that are verified kind of publicly, maybe on Twitter or something like that. I don't know for each wallet and each truck with a license plate number, something like that. There's this like over a theorem or a root stock where it's easy to like make votes and things. It's not rocket science. We don't have to trust in any centralized authority. It's easy. Yeah. But I think it could even distribute it as you went along like once they reach $1,000, it sends everyone a dollar. Once it reached $2,000, it sends everyone a dollar. There's no reason to hoard the money in a big pile other than to get that. It's a headline to say that you raised X amount of dollars. That's a really nice headline. But they can still get that headline anyway because you have the total amount right before it gets spitten as you're saying, you know, it goes to X and then they get Y and they go say, why unless you're really smart and you start donating that money back to your fundraiser and now it looks like your fundraiser is just growing infinitely as everyone redone it. It's all money. Yeah. The issue with that though is like the governance and stuff. So I mean, with some of the other thousand things, there's been issues with this. So I mean, with the truckers, we could try to assign an individual like an address to each of them and like one truck entitles you to one vote. I guess kind of like one truck one vote. One truck one. But I mean, it's not it's easier said than done in general, but I think what go fund me did is bullshit. And I think that anyone that have their money tied up there for a period of time, there is a time value to money should fucking sue a man. It's ridiculous. What they did is wrong. And I'm just telling you as a money services business, if I did that shit in America, they'd fucking be hammer at my door to our morning. So like stealing people's money, not okay. I hate to say too, but like the sex, I obviously go fund me. They're, you know, they've bowed to lots of other different pressures. But the Christian funding crowdfunding site are two things. One, God didn't stop him getting hacked and two didn't, didn't stop him from getting rated by you self and the mountain crew. So like I think the Catholic church is the highest revenue business in the world in the world. Yeah. Yeah. You go to set this crazy. You go to some, some pieces and the, the sins piece, the, the, the, the, the, the Zillocorant stuff. You just see like gold coated stuff. And then, and then like you, you see all this poverty around the world and you like, couldn't they just sell just a little bit of it? Won't they do a few little auctions, sell some little, little bits off and it will still go to museums and stuff, but we can, you know, work a little bit towards, towards hunger, but let's not go down that route. Yeah, and they can pay for these text abuse victims. Exactly, exactly. So, but yeah, so I think ultimately, I don't think it's a, a, a, you know, they're showing the, in fall, sorry, the fallibility of Bitcoin because it's just, it's just demonstrating the fallibility of a trusted third party service and, you know, the, and not a non trustless service. So ultimately, whilst it was a good effort, unfortunately, it didn't work out. I kind of think it's a good thing because it still has the ignorant people thinking, aha, Bitcoin's not, you know, not completely, you know, not completely, it is, it is fallible. Well, actually, this PTP, you know, money isn't actually fallible from a, from a hacking perspective. You can put a gun to someone's head, but you can't hack someone's actual wallet, and no one's hacked the network yet. So, you know, I think it's, it's still strong. I've still got a crazy upgrade of like 99.99, 99, ding on percent. And yeah, this is just another kind of another real world test of integrating trusted third parties and a trustless monetary system. Well, I would agree that even though we know that Bitcoin didn't fail, there's only so many of these crowdfunding attempts that we can completely miff before the public is going to lose their faith in the unsensurability of Bitcoin. It seems once again, these libertarian ideas, they work well when they're computer programs, where we can say on the code, these are going to go to these wallets and so forth, and we're going to shred the printer and all these instructions and so forth. But then there's separate of that. And there's time, which they ran out of time. Maybe their plan was too complex. Maybe they as well as I said, sometimes there's issues of implementation and execution. Like, it should work like this, but it works like that. And now all of a sudden, there's issues. So it's, it's not so simple, but. And I think this gets back blame. Governorate. Governorate. Exactly. And governance, like Mike was saying with these new DAOs, the attempt to have online governance, voting proposals, all of these structures. Again, we're talking about government. We're talking about a social contract where people come together and they give up some of their rights in order to gain other rights and privileges that they get from working together, right? And the libertarians might not be so into that. And maybe the anti-vanday Max truckers might not be so into that. If the first thing they said when you arrived at the protest was, hey, sign up on this piece of paper, give us your phone number, your truck address and your Bitcoin address. And just started checking people in. People will be freaked out. They're like, I'm here to protest. I'm not here to join some organization. But that's what I've always felt about protest. It should be which truck do you support? Exactly. Can we get that Ethereum token? This one's a little better than that one. And maybe he wants his donations in Dogecoin. But Martin, what do you think about this? They have these great ideas. They described it as some more often. Fashion on the front. We can collect the Dogecoins. And then at the end of the day, nobody gets any Dogecoin, not even the truckers. It's a typical example of a central point of failure. When we started with Bitcoin, everybody would have, don't trust, verify. So you're a trucker. And the first thing you do is you trust this guy to handle your Bitcoin. So it was bound to fail in a way. For GoFundMe, I think it's really scammy websites. If you look at all those GoFundMe listings, most of them are just pure scams. So they have no right. 20% or 30% are some ridiculous amount. I've donated before to them for some marijuana movement things. And people only get a fraction of the money at the end. I agree with that. Very scammy. So I used to lend money on BTC jam. And it was an ultimate disaster as well. People took the money. They didn't pay it back. And I can imagine it's just as bad in these crowdfunding sites. There's even a South Park episode about GoFundMe. So if they made it to South Park, you're a trustee. No, it's for. You know it's for. It is a typical example of trusting a third party with your Bitcoin. And then the trusted third party. And so for the private keys, because hey, I don't want to get arrested. So there's something to learn from this that we shouldn't trust the third party with our Bitcoin. And this is why people should learn to keep their private keys. There's multi-sign technology and things like this where we don't need to centralize the ability to intimidate someone to give up their private keys. Correct. You can even split the recovery seed from your wallet nowadays. If somebody would put a gun against my head, I don't even have a means to transfer the coins because I don't have access to it. So there's always to protect yourself. But if you're protesting, you probably got other things on your mind. And then you're happy to trust the third party. But it's something I think people should learn from. And yes, the network hasn't been compromised. Bitcoin is secure as ever. Bitcoin will remain secure. It is. But now we have a little like a spit narface about, oh, crypto this and that. And they didn't get their money. And it has nothing to do with us. But people are still looking at us and say, hey, it was Bitcoin in the end. It was these go-funny scammers. No, it was it was people being stupid. It's not Bitcoin. Sorry. You know, you could press the coins. Bitcoin's equal with go fund me that both of them failed to raise money for the trucker. So it's an equality. I'll give you that. That's good. Normandy point of view. The normally point of view is people don't even recognize that Bitcoin failed or didn't fail. Like we all know Bitcoin didn't fail. But they do recognize though, is that a government they thought was like a quote unquote good government will swipe money. And that for a lot of normies, I know a lot of my friends were like holy crap. Like that was a wake up call. They had no idea that that was going to happen in the West. They just didn't believe it. But unfortunately, if you really look at their tactics, they crossed the line from protest to blockade. Now, I'm a, you know, lefty liberal. I wanted to stop the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and all these things. I think we should know you're our tree. I think we should have blocked the streets, right? But right here, when they did block the streets, what happened is what they always told me was happened. They lost their respect of being a protest. They lost that protection. I have to disagree with you. I, and to be very clear, I had a hundred ATM's arrive in Vancouver about a month ago and had to spend twice as much money. And I lost money on the delays where they were getting truck to Calgary, where our warehouse is, but very clearly, I think these guys were peaceful. I think the way the Canadian government handled it was wrong. I absolutely agree with them. And even as a business in Canada, at my expense, I am not angry at them at all. But I mean, if you compare that to what happened in Washington and these kind of places in the United States, where they were throwing bombs through windows and shooting people and whatever else, yeah, stop your trucks until you get what you want. And if that's our perspective, it's very easy to do that. It's very inexpensive to do that. When you block the streets and you block the flow of commerce in a capitalist country, you're blocking what matters, right? You're blocking the thing that's brought us together as a society. But in that case, like you can arrest them. And there are legal remedies. You don't do that. To grab their money, but to make them a non person by grabbing their bank accounts. Yeah. Or that becoming a thing. Yeah, it's probably mostly socialist that were blocked, but that were angry at the capitalist truckers. Well, again, it's been a good service. You know, whether you like it or not, with the issue of terrorism, if you donate to the IRA or to some time kind of organization, they're going to block your funding. So if they see this blockade in a city, which is, again, it's an extra level up from the protest. You can be mad. It was simply a prime minister or president or whatever they call them. They're different from row, whatever it's been. We should have said, listen, fine, we're going to be easier on the COVID things for the truckers. We appreciate your guys. Like the work. But if the prime minister, like we're going to arrest you, I don't know what you got to come from. But if the prime minister rolls over so easily and you can just rent a bunch of trucks and block the street and get whatever you want from the government, we've lost all form of democratic government. If they want to change the vaccine things, they should run for office. They should work on ground up things. You can't just block the streets and say, do what I want because that could be. He did support protest in India, though. He supported the farming protests in India, but they did almost the same thing. So to be tweeting about your support in like in solidarity with like the farmers in India blocking stuff and then going, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to literally kill everyone's lives in terms of finances because it's in your own turf. It does seem a bit slightly hypocritical, one way. Say, but just what I was going to make is that if these, if these people who had their assets frozen, who would court, you know, drop in $20 on GoFundMe or whatever to the trucking protest, we're bringing it. If they had, well, I'd bring in a can of gasoline. If they actually had already had their funds in Bitcoin, and it was in their own private wallets, their funds wouldn't have been frozen. So to the people that they've gained Indians that did actually have their assets in Bitcoin, they, you know, they came almost unscathed because Bitcoin proved itself in being uncomfuscatable. It was only the ones that went through this, this donation program that got caught out using Bitcoin. I just, I like a nice, peaceful protest. And I don't think there was a lot of violent certain thing going on in general with the stuff in the truckers protest. And I think that the way that the Prime Minister handled it by taking it to a level of, listen, we're going to fucking take your livelihood. We're going to seize your assets, these kind of things. This is like, it's, this is like ridiculous. This is what we do to cutin or whatever for attacking Ukraine. This is not what we do to people. Okay, I agree with Thomas. It is an issue to have the truckers stopping everything. But at the end of the day, they're not like out there with guns. Nobody is like, again, there's such a thing as economic violence. All the people in the government escalated. They couldn't go to work. All the people in the city that had their apartments full of gas from the trucks running. All these people that like the GM plant that couldn't get the supplies, all these things were affected. So you can't just say, only, you're not going to get the police violence. And the reason unfortunately that it does require money. I paid like $40,000 to have ATM's move from Bank of China to Calgary. And it should have been 10,000 because of this fucking thing. So I mean, I lost money because of their protest. But I'm saying I agree with their protest. The thing you realize, Thomas, is by your methodology, which is they can make you a non-person for any reason they deem without a court like process. If you can just make people non-people by taking away their wealth and their funds immediately, without due process of law, we're lost, man. Because what you are then is they have to tell it in control over every single person. Every single person. You can't blockade cities. No, Thomas, I agree. We've done all the time in Costa Rica with the new. Inside of a country blockade cities. Thomas, we deal with that all the time in Costa Rica. They arrest the people and they impound their cars. That's what they do. But they don't take their bank accounts. They arrest the people and they impound their cars. That's what they do. They take their bank accounts like you will rush the people. You have to look at the tactics and logistics of this. The government got a slow start. They didn't attack them as quickly as maybe they should have. Then the fundraising, which actually opened up by attack. Most of the fundraising came from overseas and from millionaires. You have to look at it that they were supporting the blockade. So they were going to make the blockade inside your country go longer. You can't have blockade cities inside your country. You can't have people donating money to people who blockade cities inside your country. Once again, I was for these tactics when we were stopping wars and things, but we didn't do them. And the reason that people didn't do them is because of this. They've lost the protection of peaceful protests when they blockade cities. It's not a peaceful blockade. It's a blockade. Like you guys aren't seeing like, so why can't you arrest them, Thomas? Exactly. They didn't arrest them. They were going to be arrested. They're making chaos. You're going to go down and block it if you're right. They lost control of the situation. If you look at the situation, they didn't get on it quickly. They lost control of it. And it was ballooning out of control. So yes, they made financial tactics that you disagree with. But the core of this comes when you make the bad choice to blockade cities. Like maybe they're making a better show. Maybe they're making a better show. Thomas, you realize you're on a Bitcoin show right now, right? Again, you can't blockade cities. Like you guys have to look at military history and you can't blockade cities. You lose your right of being a peaceful protest when you blockade cities. Like I'm very sorry to explain this to you guys. I'll do it again and again and again. You can't blockade cities. Look at Kiv. He's blockading cities and people are not approving of it, right? They're not like, hey, Russia's got the right to protest what they're doing there. You know, they're blockading the cities. Come on people. Like just because you agree. Yeah, but this is our blockade. I don't agree with blockade. This is our blockade. I don't agree with blocking them, but I agree with Adam that you come. There's like deleting them basically from a catchless society where everybody needs the cards to do anything. It's it's a bit it's just wrong. You know, it's like, Thomas, tell me this. How's the person who just got arrested supposed to defend themselves if they don't have money to pay for a lawyer? Or even a sneaker from the machine. How? Yeah. How can I defend myself if you've taken my bank accounts so I can't pay a lawyer? Like a public defender. You likely get your account. Oh, that's a good chance to think. Okay, buddy. What about with that? It doesn't matter. Maybe you should support the public defender system. No. Maybe you should have a robust system of public defense. I mean, you can't just claw out at other parts of the system when you're upset because you are arrested for blockading a city. Come on. You're arresting from just saying you can't cancel people. It wasn't even the topic as well. Like the topic. The topic is they screwed up and they couldn't get any money to these people, which we predicted here on the show. And everyone's like, come on. They're not going to screw up Bitcoin's unstoppable. And I'm like, but they'll screw up on the government part because they don't like government and they don't want to do government. And whenever things get complicated, like when they get called out for blockading a city, which is not acceptable, then they're all like, oh, but this is our blockade. Oh, this is the Liberty blockade of freedom. And again, where did the money go? They could have donated the money to a charity and it would have done more good than having it frozen by the Canadian authorities and having everyone. Everyone is for charity. Oh, Bitcoin. Bitcoin gets frozen. Bitcoin gets frozen when you donate it just like the other things. So exit question. Why did the fundraiser fail? Why was it so obvious? Why did no one get any money from this? Dan Eve. Well, it's the, it's the, it's the, you know, the trusted third parties. Yeah, that's the point that the point why Bitcoin is so strong is because it's a trustless, permissionless system. And as soon as you have trusted third parties, that's where you have a king in the chain, is it worth the blockchain, the blockchain to the human chain. And yeah, that's where the point of failure is. And unfortunately, you know, governments can't hack the blockchain, but they can hack people and they can hack their lives and hack away at them by, you know, taking the freezing their finances and doing other really creepy stuff. Martin Wishmeyer, why did it fail? Dan is right. There's a third party and it's trust us and don't trust, verify. So keep your Bitcoin in a private wallet. Don't leave them on exchange as well unless it's your trading with them. And just, you know, keep, keep, keep them in your own control. And once you are like used to that, run your own notes and instead of using Bitcoin, you can be Bitcoin. So yeah, it's not don't trust, verify. It's trust, but verify. You can trust, but you can verify. Now, you can't trust. You got to verify. You have to trust the network. That's true. That's true because you've just hung up on you. What the heck Martin? You're going to way from the other side. We're both in ATM space. Maybe he doesn't like me. I don't know what's going to trust. You got to trust the software. You've got to trust the hardware. You've got to trust the airways. You've got to trust the encryption. So there is an element of trust. Yeah, but you know, you trust a computer technology. And technology is either, you know, broken or it's working. And it's not like humans that change their minds. So yeah, I have more faith in technology than I have in politicians and humans to be honest. I thought you were supposed to trust no one. Adam McBride, why did the funders fail? Actually, I think it succeeded in a far more important way, which is telling us a global community, what our governments are willing to do. And giving us basically your point of view, Thomas, which is fine. You can hold that point of view, but it awakens enough people, a whole bunch of new people who never really got what Bitcoin's about. And this sort of has awakened just a whole group of people. Like if this had happened under Donald Trump, God help us. We'd be screaming to the roofs about authoritarian and how he's Hitler. And it happens in Canada with Mr. Nice guy up there. And he's super cool and he's beautiful looking. And he did it. It just, I'm telling you, I have dozens of friends who are like, holy cow, I had no idea. Tell me more about this Bitcoin thing. And that's where we are. So I actually think it was a good thing overall for free people the world over. Mike, do you pre-widen the fundraiser fail? I'm not sure, but I think in general, some fundraisers have been very successful. And that it's not a broken technology. It was a broken implementation. We need to remove, go fund me and you centralize the authorities, use DAO's. We have a technology to do this with multi-sigs and stuff like that. It's easily done with many other projects. We should try again and raise these guys some money. And this time not allow there to be any centralized point of failure where they can put a gun to someone's head or seize an account or a company can decide what they think is morally correct or not. If only we had used DAO's and NFTs, everything would have been fine. Moving on to issue four, six months in, El Salvador's Bitcoin gamble is crumbling. The price of Bitcoin is down. El Salvador is launching its Bitcoin bond saying that it's all or nothing that the project must succeed. Meanwhile, no one wants to live in a Bitcoin city near a volcano. And many others are wondering if the dictator with the bat where it's hat has gone too far. Dan Iktator, you mean the CEO of El Salvador? Whenever you claim power by violent ceremony by making the force to vote for you, you're kind of a dictator. Sorry to get too much into the terms. Dan, if your thoughts on El Salvador and they're suddenly all or nothing Bitcoin bonds. Well, I personally think it sounds quite cool to live next to a volcano because you might have a bit more warning if an eruption than they had in the Pompeii days. And that's so. But obviously, what you would do is centralize a load of Bitcoiners in that particular town, which probably makes it a bit of a target. Imagine if you centralize people enough and it becomes that popular and everyone's all Bitcoin and they're all holding their own private keys. And then it's like some other crazy, not some other crazy dictator. Not I wasn't saying like a crazy dictator in another part of the world is like, Oh, okay, everyone's getting too dependent on Bitcoin. But they could then go and like, nuke the Bitcoin city and then wipe out loads of Bitcoin supply. And then that's got a whole other host of problems. So yeah, for enough El Salvador had some, you know, some rollout issues using Chivo wallet and they do seem like they're, they're, you know, they're remedying that. Obviously, it hasn't helped the people. I actually understand the implications of Chivo wallet though and the Chivo wallet system. When you say the implication doesn't, it was kind of, it seems like it was a, I wouldn't say a backhander, but like it was a lightning network where you don't hold your own keys. Yeah, yeah. It's not your keys. It's not your Bitcoin. I just want to be very clear. We have ATMs in El Salvador, but we've been down there since the beginning. We have very big concerns about the way that they're implementing it and the true fungibility of the El Salvadorian Bitcoin versus a standard Bitcoin. Additionally, the potential for them to have like a fractional reserve of Bitcoins. Like, if it's only a paper Bitcoin and you don't hold the keys, how do you know that they don't have 500,000 Bitcoins on the books and only 100,000 Bitcoins in the reserve like the United States does with gold. Anyways. Well, and this issue really came to light when El Salvador started to give out, I don't know, something like a thousand dollars each to each of their people, but then they only gave you $30 each. Yeah. Yeah. It was in the Chivo wallet. It was the $30. And we don't know unless they cashed all of those out, whether they actually gave that Bitcoin or like Mike said, they could have fractionally reserved that Bitcoin. So that's a whole nother shoe waiting to drop. Dan, do you have more on El Salvador? Yeah. Well, that was definitely the biggest issue that is, you know, it's a lightning wallet, but it's custodial. There are also I think issues with how it was the company that owned it that it was kind of linked via family members. And so it seemed like it was a bit of a side deal, you know, rather than going for the best technology, it was going for something that kind of, you know, made everyone happy. But ultimately, yeah, I think they've mainly been stunned from an outward perspective by the fact that Bitcoin has been taken from, sorry, been gone from like 69K down to 40s. Everyone's kind of like, oh, well, Bitcoin's dropped and it's a terrible decision. And obviously people aren't used to the fluctuations, right? People slowly getting to Bitcoin. It makes your heart stop when your assets suddenly dropped 20%. Even if you're like a fly by the seat of your pants kind of, you know, a roadside cafe or whatever that's taken a couple of hundred dollars a day and it drops 20% or 15%. That's going to hit you hard until you start realizing that if you're holding for the long term and whatever and, you know, you're being a bit more projection based on your stock and trying to forecast a bit better, it takes a while to get your head around. So yeah, I think, I think ultimately there's going to be naysayers, but there, I think we're on the on the right track and again, going back to this rule that if you hold for like four plus years, then eventually you'll be back in the green. Martin Wishmer, El Salvador used to be all powerful and amazing and strong country. Then suddenly the price is down and now the Bitcoin bond must succeed. What's going on in El Salvador? Yeah, I think as Dan said, it has to do with the current price. If the price would have been going up like planned, be predicted under the K or more, then everything would, if everybody would be still be cheering. And now they're like, you know, probably getting a lot of negative reviews and I told you so and this was bound to fail. So, you know, on the Bitcoin bonds, that's just not for me. You know, I want to hold Bitcoin. I don't want to hold a promise of Bitcoin or some some some some fiat based returns. I honestly don't care about that. But maybe it's something for someone else. I do applaud them for trying. They were they didn't have their own currency. So why not adopt Bitcoin in that case, you know, so it makes sense because the monetary policy behind Bitcoin is known. It's 21 million and there will never be any any more with the dollar which they had before that or they still have. You don't know how many bit or dollars there will be like new dollars there will be like next month. So yeah, it did make sense and I think it still does make sense. And I still think it's like kind of brave to do that. But I agree with Michael. He said, we do have our reservations on how they implemented this. I think it was just like a quick way to implement it and get it very fast. And in the end of the day, if it's not correct and people lose money, they're going to end up blaming us, not the El Salvador CEO. You're right. I still think they're trying to find out how many Bitcoin you could fit into a briefcase and sneak out of the country. But we'll see how that goes. Is it right? You shouldn't do that. Just send them on the interwebs. I also agree with what Martino is saying that why would you buy these bonds when you could just buy Bitcoin? And even the article itself, it was like, why not just buy Bitcoin directly? Why have all this stress? You're buying publicity. So what if you're buying a bond that's really not as valuable as a Bitcoin is? But because of the artificial inflation and them arbitrarily creating additional Bitcoins that don't really exist, maybe the first few people will get it on the pump and dump before everyone realizes, I'm not saying it's a scam. I don't know this for sure. I'm just saying like, I'm very cautious about El Salvador in general because they're not being fully transparent. And what they're doing is it doesn't really. It's not fungible and it doesn't really articulate to the true like decentralized kind of thing. Why do we need Bitcoin through our government? It does expose a problem in their system and that's probably why they created these layers like the Chivo wallet where they can still maintain control and maybe not even give out all the money. And then now these strange bonds. It's that old thing. Everyone comes to Bitcoin. They're like, this is the perfect currency. I could attach something to this. I could make a coin base. I could make a bond. But is it just that the price is down and it's causing worries? Josh Chagalla, your thoughts on El Salvador where suddenly the bonds are all or nothing and the backwards hat has to make all his money back or it's a huge problem. And hey, Josh, welcome to the show. Sorry, I stepped away for a second when you joined, but it's really good to see it. Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that the clocks had changed. Well, the clocks have changed in America. So in the US, they went one hour at the counter. Yeah, it's made it permanent now. So it'll probably be effective you guys soon. Just wait for the bulletin to get out. That's how powerful governments are. They can change the time. Space time continuum. I agree with the panel here. The Bitcoin bonds are a strange concept. But I do like the experimentation. I like that the government has tried this. I think it's all about timing with this stuff, especially bonds. Because bonds from well, really at the time where it's a bull market. Because depending on the maturity date, but yeah, I mean, it depends also what they do with the underlying collateral. So if they go and put this stuff into defy or lend it out and get more Bitcoin back and actually build up the underlying reserve, your bond might mature worth a little bit more. It's more or the other. I haven't looked into the transfer with it. And they go throwing around money in the wrong places. You could lose your ass. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. So in one side, that's the good side. The other side is that's the bad side. What Mike just stated there. And knowing humans, it's usually the bad side because they get greedy. They screw things up. So one thing that would save them though is if they really worked a little bit more transparently with multi-sig wallets, with dows, like build a government dower where people vote on where allocation of funds are and treasuries and stuff, this would be a really interesting. I think El Salvador is really going to that. Yeah, they're not trying to get a government install at all. What's that? It's not going that way though at all. They're not planning to do like a government install or something. They're literally just saying, trust the government, we'll hold your Bitcoins. You don't get your private keys. Use our ATMs and put your money in Bitcoin and trust us. And like that's the complete opposite of what we're supposed to do. Yeah, totally. And the problem with your new system is it gives power to all these new people. So of course, existing power is not going to go for it. And it also, it allows the state to hold the entire economy to ransom as well because if they get voted out, they're like, well, we're going to take the keys. We're taking the keys. So it's sort of. If when they get voted out, there's even anything left in the reserve and there's really nothing technologically, algorithmically preventing them from just stealing everyone's Bitcoin. I'm not saying they would do this. I'm not good friends with the president or something. But the reality is that technologically, nothing prevents that. And the whole part of cryptocurrency and Bitcoin is removing that ability via technology for someone to be able to just run off. Yeah. I really see what the president had a down and everything and the governance was correct and all that and the keys were public and everybody could see what's going on. Ideally, that would be great. I don't think that's what we have here. Yeah, I don't think that's happening either. Adam McBride, you were mad at Trudeau when he was freezing accounts. Could you imagine if all of the country's money and spending power was in the Chivo wallet and you could shut down anyone's wallet at any time, you can't even buy a Coca-Cola. It's all over for you. I know it's hard to believe, but how little I trust the Canadian government, I trust the El Salvadorian government, even less, like way less, man. I mean, dude, I live here in Central America. Bro, you can't trust these governments at all zero. And we all know like the CEO of El Salvador, he's done this because it's a fantastic publicity stunt for him. He gets, dude, he's set for the rest of his life. He gets to travel the globe, hang out with Bitcoiners, all this sort of stuff. But dude, this is a backwards hand. Yeah, dude, this, you know, Mike's got it completely right. This is a complete cluster. He behaves like a rapper when he's on stage and stuff. He just thinks he's like a cool rapper. Yeah. And look, they got a bunch of, their citizens to sign up because they got 30 bucks free. And 30 bucks free is significant for them. This is not like nothing. This is like a couple of days of work for a lot of people. No, no, it's up. It's more than that. I think the average wage is like a dollar or two dollars a day. Yeah. So the idea that, but the idea that basically these poor people are going to become Bitcoin enthusiasts and guard their keys and stuff like that's never got for most of those people that's not going to happen. It is what it is. We got to look at it and say, look, this is just a government doing something. But do I try would trust it absolutely not zero? I would buy exactly zero those bonds. And if I could short the bonds, I probably would be shorting the bonds. It's not nice to say, but this wasn't the right country for this. And we said it in the beginning and we also said, sure, we can't stop them from using Bitcoin. We can't, we don't want to slow them down. Give them all the help files. You can send them all the people you want to, but we need a technologically ready country. We need a country that's already Bitcoin curious where the government announced it pushes them over the edge. Like we've seen in the article, many people were upset. They felt the government was forcing Bitcoin upon them. They felt that this Bitcoin somehow only served the Bitcoin visitors, the travelers and things. It's come on. It's come on. Even have a smartphone in El Salvador. So I mean your average person is not like on the, I think 70% of people in El Salvador do not have a bank account. Don't quote me on that, but I think that's correct. So we're not talking about people here are like, hey, government, please help me with my money. They're like, yeah, we're using US dollars, which is their official currency. They're kind of working fine for us. It's dependent upon the US government. We don't really need you to come in and issue new currency and whatever is going on with this Bitcoin. And are you giving away money to foreigners? Are you, what are you supporting here? What's the people I think in general are confused? And just like with the convoy, we want to imagine that they're getting the best possible version of Bitcoin that they're going to print out their wallets and they're going to hold their own keys and they're going to do all this stuff. But in reality, the actual Bitcoin, they're getting her this Chivo wallet and when it fails, if it fails, sorry, they'll take all the money and they'll blame Bitcoin and we'll hear on on about how Bitcoin was a scam and they thought it was a scam in the first place and then it paid off. Mike, do I hear you're running out of battery life there? You might have to leave us. Is there anything you wanted to say in celebration of this 300th episode? No, Thomas Hunt. Yeah, I'll say a little thing. It's just thank you so much for having me on. It's always a pleasure. I haven't seen you in a while because of Corona, but you're always welcome back. Well, I'm not in Barcelona. I'm not local, but you're always welcome back in Barcelona sometime and really a pleasure. Josh, I'm sorry. We only had a second chat and Martin always great to see you and Dan and what Brian, right? I'm sorry. Dan F.T. Guy. Yeah, you're all of us. Yeah, really? Can you go do a pool plunge for us, man? You're going to run and jump in. Yeah, that's what you wanted to do. We don't want to get him kicked off of YouTube or whatever. So I'll do the pool for the camera. It says in the chat, can you look at it? Can you look at the pool? We're really great. Thomas, we've been on the 300th episode and all these things and I completely agree with everybody here that with El Salvador in general, we should be for this kind of thing, but we should be cautious. We have to remember at the end of the day, they're not going to remember the CEO of El Salvador. They're going to remember the Bitcoin that everybody lost their asses on. That's where we have to be very cautious to. But again, we're theorizing here. For all we know, these bonds are going to be the most valuable in the world in 10 years. And El Salvador is the most perfect financial even in the world. Who knows? No, I mean, just to tap on to the rest of that, we saw also the oil bonds. It was a oil bonds was tokenized oil coming out of Venezuela. So again, total scam. What's happened to that? Are they actually using it? I don't know. It's sort of disappeared. I remember now they made their own coin, the Venezuela coin. Petro. Petro. Petro. Yeah, the Petro. I think I'm working with them on that and they're going to make a pipeline or something. Anyways, happy 300th show Thomas. Thank you for inviting me. It was great to see everyone. Peace, love, love. Cheers, Mark. Take a cannonball. Take a cannonball. Take a cannonball. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. All right, we're going to move on to the next issue. Check out the WCN Clips account where now you could subscribe. We've got 92 subscribers. We only need eight people in the audience to Google WCN Clips and subscribe to WCN Clips. These are great little clips of these show. They're smaller. I bet we do want about us fighting about blockades. Then you can share it with your friends and ask them to write to watch the show. Check out WCN Clips. Thanks to the WCN Clips guy for doing this, all of his hard work. Yeah, man. He's just beavering away. What a champion. What a champion. And maybe someday we'll get some old clips on here too. Do some classic clips. Moving on to issue five wasabi wallet. Wasabi wallet a famous privacy wallet similar to samurai wallet has run. Run into trouble. They've decided to pre-sensor Bitcoin transactions before they allow you to use their coin join software. So if your Bitcoin address was on a bad list, you wouldn't be able to use the coin join software to attempt to hide or to disguise the source of your funds. Many are upset with wasabi which focused heavily on privacy and now is delivering this less than exciting update. Then Eve, your thoughts on the wasabi wallet controversy? Well, it privacy is always like a really difficult thing to discuss because somebody will say, like, oh, we need full transparency. What's it difficult to discuss as in? Just because you suggest that you want to be private with your transactions and certain data, people suggest that they link it to this nefarious activity. Bitcoin, obviously, is there's still that stigma of it being incorrect stigma that it's a completely private permissionless money system and it's used for only nefarious activities and kidnappings and money laundering and terrorism and all the bad things that they say. But obviously, it's a public blockchain. Privacy is more than just being able to hide financial transactions. Obviously, there's things like wages that you don't know publicly what your wages are. Obviously, there are no life savings. They don't know what your political interests are even. Hobbies that you might be embarrassed, maybe you're a knitting connoisseur and you don't want the guys at the rugby club to find out. But the fact is, privacy is more than just hiding something that's dodgy. It's your right to having a space where you can message and whether that's a message and communicate, whether that's communicating with money or communicating with something else. It's something that you have as a right as a privacy. But there is obviously the debate that anything that's private should be actually in the public domain because otherwise, it means that you've got something to hide. Now, I really hate that saying, just because you do something and you want it to be private, there's a reason you've got to hide it. But they do seem, we're sorry, they're trying to be ahead of the curve. The regulation hammer, let's face it, is going to come down pretty hard. I think unfortunately, there's an even crack in my credit. Jesse said keep your coins off exchanges ultimately because the regulation hammer is going to come down and when it does, they're going to have to abide or they get shut down. No one wants to get shut down because it means you end up becoming the whack-a-mole. So there's some things you've got to concede to and privacy is whilst you want to protect it at the same time. You also want to stay alive as a company because that's what provides you and your staff are a means of living and that's your goal is to provide a service and sometimes you've got to keep on the train tracks of regulation. But yeah, I think they're obviously trying to distance themselves from the nefarious side of all the coin joins being used only for bad things. So as a business move, they've kind of got to do it otherwise they're going to be forced out of the system. Anyway, it's a very difficult thing. But ultimately, to chain Alice Nitch and Coat, these services, they're thinking around the block chain, they're only going to proliferate. They're only going to become more common. Chain Alice Nitch is the one that everyone knows. But as the regulate is grow stronger, as the power is going stronger, all the analytics is going to grow stronger. And so you're going to get caught out eventually if you are doing anything nefarious. So in a way, in an odd way, all the chain sniffing could lead to people, the proof, more proof that Bitcoin is used for actual positive activity than the negative activity. So even though it's a shit thing, people snooping on transactions, it could turn up for the better of Bitcoin because there'll be more research that shows that Bitcoin is used for the good and not for the bad. It really does seem like it was set up to fail from the beginning. If you say, I'm going to build a secret system where you can send around all your money and no one will know about it. But we're setting up a traditional corporation and we're taking venture capital and you can find our office at this address. It seems like there was always going to be this problem. Now maybe they've forced their hand here by saying they're going to do this pre-check for every address that enters the system. But again, it just seemed badly set up from the beginning. Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, these new ideas of raising money such as dowels and other things, although it failed with dark wallet, there was no dark wallet product, there were a lot of money donated. Still, it's probably your best chance at getting this kind of software. But even then, would you be able to trust the software if it was produced by such a shadowy group of individuals? Martin, wish me your thoughts about the Wasabi failure. Yeah, I've been told it's going to be forked into Wasabi Keshe and that will have no search scanning abilities. And Wasabi Keshe will be the real Wasabi. So I'm not sure what will happen there, but I read that there is a way around it. You can set up your own mixing coin joint group, but there is no nothing in the configuration that allows you to change it. So you'd have to start editing config files, which it basically means that you and your friends can mix coins together and spend together. So it totally defeats the purpose. I think they more or less killed the company on this one. And it's said to see, I do like any new initiatives in Bitcoin that try to increase its privacy because as Dan said, it's important that there is some privacy. Just people that say, oh, I have nothing to hide. Usually, I have nothing to say either. So I think everybody has a right to a little bit of privacy, even if it's just to prevent everyone from knowing your entire Bitcoin stack. So for Wasabi, I don't know. But first, there's not a product. I believe Samurai Wallets. And they were like the competitors. They were like the two Japanese named Wallets that would give privacy to Bitcoin. So I think somebody that Samurai's probably love, I think, we won. But yeah, for Wasabi, I don't think it's too late. I think they should just fork into a new product and it could be all the same developers. But then, I don't know, name Wasabi. Cash might not be a good name for the Wallets. I think I read somewhere, somebody suggested sake, because if you have sake wallets and you have Wasabi wallets, and so it stays in this Japanese naming convention. But yeah, I never used those wallets either, to be honest. I like it from a new technology, a few points, but I have no real need for it and daily use. So yeah, I hope it gets fixed. Waiting for Wasabi. Got it. If the source is mightier than the sword with Wasabi versus Samurai. It is funny, all these privacy wallets with the Japanese names. Of course, there's a quick workaround. If you are a criminal and you're really fast and your address isn't in the list yet, you could still mix your coins. But what if your address was added to the bad list by mistake? Joshua Shagalla, what would happen if you were bad listed by mistake? Yeah, I mean, you know, running, we've been running Voltoro.com since 2015 and as regulations have built up and up over time, we've had to comply with all of this stuff with regulations. And we can see what we see in the back end. And funnily enough, what doesn't make sense to me is that if your coins have been through a mixer, then they get flagged. So when the start, you get checked. Have you got anything dodgy? No, okay, go through the mixer. Next time you try to use it, you won't be able to use it because you went through your own wallet. The thing is, this has been a problem with Bitcoin since day one, is that privacy only works if we do it for everything all the time. If we only do it for like part time, yeah, the people that need it the most will be people that are doing stuff that is a little bit more in need of that sort of thing or people that are really, really privacy centric. And you're right. Like, if you're running a business, I don't want all my employees knowing exactly how much every employee is getting paid because, you know, you're making deals. You have some people feel that they're better than they are. And there's all sorts of dynamics there. The other thing is, if you're running a business, you don't also, you don't want your customer to know where you're sourcing your goods from or what your markup is. Like, these are just standard things in normal business and why you need privacy. So these idiots that go on about like, oh, we got nothing to hide. Yeah, go on then go on then show everything. Well, pull down your pants, show it all. You know, like, it's just silly. So it's the most naive nonsense to say that you don't need privacy. And so of course you need privacy. And really, this is sort of why I'm a narrow and such. Really are important. But I think what will happen is that big, big coin, my hope is that Bitcoin becomes so entrenched. And it slowly starts bringing in like functions like like, like, like, and what's the thing that that Charlie Lee's put into Litecoin now? Oh, it's slipped my mind, but it's also a privacy feature. And as these features start coming in, I'm hoping that eventually it just, it just happens where all of a sudden the entire network, including the, the network of, of, of merchants suddenly upgrade and hey, presto, everything's more private. That's my hope because it does what happens is that once you put breaks on things, you can see it with this wallet. No one's going to use this wallet anymore. So if you start putting in, if you start having to like weird laws like, you need to check for ones that you have one Satoshi that was in a weird transaction, three transactions ago. Yeah, so it is, it is where, although there are points in certain regulations where if something goes to a sketchy market, you cannot really flag that too much. Like, you can flag it internally, but it's not guilt because they might have accidentally done it. They might have, you know, there's a whole bunch of, of scenarios where you have the benefit of the doubt on, on the side of the law. So, yeah, it's, it's a very, very complex topic. My wish is that we go full privacy and let good off fashion police work, deal with the, the, the apparent criminals that are just in society, that are, you know, doing all sorts of horrible stuff. And, and rather than, you know, trying to stop the money flow because stopping the money flow stops a vast, you know, I feel there's a, there's a further, there's more to be lost by doing that and there is to be gained by stopping the crime. So, you know, stopping the money is a very, very new, it's not something that's, it's, it's, it's what, maybe 40, 50 years old, if that. And back then, before that, it was always just good old fashion police work. You find the criminal, you find who's doing, you stop him, you arrest him, you put him in prison. Nowadays, it's, it's much more about just stopping the money because it's, it's a lot easier and I understand it's a lot easier, but it's also not a good thing for society to put breaks on money. You want that to be as fluid as possible to have a, to have an economy because the economy at the end of the day is only the sum of all transactions that people are doing. And if you're putting hand breaks on transactions, it's terrible, especially a push technology that crypto, that way you, you, you're just all of a sudden got these coins that someone's sent to your address. So yeah. Yeah, you can almost, you contain other people's coins by checking out big, big addresses and sending them tainted coins, right. And then how many, how many hops is, how many hops is like, okay, how many times is a transaction need to have a Bitcoin move? Before it's not tainted. And there is that is then that's, that's true. You can send a, say tainted Satoshi's to like a whole bunch of addresses and then implicate them on whatever crime you did with your Satoshi's. But when you scan use those analysis tools to scan the incoming transaction, say the coins, then it will it will clearly say, well, you know, this then he's just sent us one Bitcoin and there was only one or two Satoshi's which were related to drugs and the other one was gambling and the other one was arm trade. So there's three bad Satoshi's there and the rest is okay. So then it will not really immediately flag it. My major problem with this technology is that what is deemed illegal in one country say gambling. I know gambling is stupid people who gamble they can't do that or not or mouth, but it is illegal in some countries. It's perfectly legal in other countries. So when we looked at that, I noticed that we noticed that like gambling is flagged as even more dangerous than gun gun running. So this is this is this is the gift the ridiculous situation where you know, even though something might be flexed it might be not a thing at all. It's just maybe is silly gambler, which is not illegal in Europe, you know, it's silly stupid if you do that, but it's not illegal. Well, you get a lower you score lower on the dodgy scale. If you bought arms online while in Europe, that will be like, oh, no, bad, bad person, you bad person. And so it's like it's the same with like one man's erotic eye is another man's pornography, but it's the same with the scaling the dodgy bit points. Sorry for the introduction. I just hope we can keep buying that erotica. We're also joined today. We're very lucky to see Ben arc. How's it going Ben? What are your thoughts about with savvy wallet and the blocking of certain addresses. Yeah, sorry, I'm a little bit like I feel quite strongly about coin mixing services and coin joins, because I think that increasing fungibility on the network is just going to be something which government's going to attack Bitcoin on by emphasizing fungibility and how you got some tainted coins by allowing some coins and not allowing some other coins. I think it's like a temporary bandaid which some people need and they need to use, but this kind of like promoting just mixing your coins, just to support privacy on the network. I understand the sentiment away it comes from, but quite often when people talk about that, they don't talk about the implications of it, you know, like like Josh said, someone will go to the go do all the KYC in order to go buy their coins on some exchange. And then they'll mix them then five years or pass as coins be worth a large sum of money and then they'll go to buy something in the real material world such as house, for example. And in the UK and in Europe, you have you know anti money laundering laws and you have to prove where those funds came from. And if you if you can't do that if you have these coins are just the history has been erased from it, they'll ask questions, but why did you do this ultimately Bitcoin. The goal is zero knowledge that you can send coins to somebody else and it's completely private and there's no way of tracking where those coins came from. But then the argument would be that then you can't verify supply because you can't, you know, see exactly where all the coins have gone and card your channel is you can't prove that all the coins which are supposed to be in the system so people worry about things like inflation, which may happen. But I mean, these are incredibly hard problems which take a long time to solve. I remember Peter Wollard doing a talk at one of the Congress cares communication congresses or just more of a chat than a talk actually and he was saying this is the goal that's what we're aiming for you know, we're aiming for this zero knowledge, but how do we get there in a way which doesn't. You know, it doesn't work against you know and create things like inflation is a very hard problem to solve in this whole like wasabi debate thing I think Max Celerand he had a very good point in one of the threats of threat is that it's a private product private private company. They can do what they want and that's exactly true like it's a private product private private company if you want coin joining done in some decentralized way which isn't a private product belong into private company then those tools need to be built. But I do think that increasing fundability and having different variants of coins and privacy can be quite tricky and problematic for Bitcoin and it's if you're a government wanting to attack Bitcoin that's why you attack right there. So like Josh said, hopefully over time the Bitcoin network would just become more private and everyone's coins will become more private and it will be so entrenched in the system and so much big capital will be in Bitcoin that there won't be large attacks by government and it's a very plausible scenario. I think the lightning network I think goes a goes a long way although it's still full short but what's interesting with the lightning network is it allows for mixing to be extremely cheap you could just be mixing all day long it's just con and you know sending around and up and down and. Well, I mean it mixes I mean just it's more private in many ways isn't it because when I send funds to you there's no way to prove that the funds came from me to you yeah through the lightning network which is why taproot is important because you can hide if everyone starts using taproot addresses then you can start to hide you know that that address that transaction was a opening of a lightning channel so there's no way of proving what then happened to that transaction while it was within the lightning network and what you're paying for. But yeah no I'm a big fan of privacy on chain I think it's important I think we need it I think in order for Bitcoin to work successfully as a money it needs to be as private as it possibly be on chain and I think for a name maybe shataki for the new fork over wasabi shataki would be pretty good. I like that. Yeah I told for shataki. I will say as well I like the bar a lot and I feel kind of bad for all the hate he's been getting over this but I mean I wasabi did get this huge influx of investor capital which came into wasabi and I think that then it meant that he grew and then they were providing this product in a very commercial way and then they had to get all the lawyers in the room and the lawyers were like okay well we're going to get in a lot of trouble if we're mixing points with the other and we'd be careful with you see. And that's the danger of well I mean it just shows that you know all these good intentions aside if you've got a private company which is providing this service then it's accountable to the jurisdiction which is operating and there's no way you can get around that unless you do these things in a decentralized. No it needs to be at a protocol level it needs to be at a protocol level we need to get to a point where it's the norm and and that's I don't know if it's ever going to happen. I mean lightning goes the long way. Yeah. All I know is if I trade my dirty coins for your dirty coins they come out clean. Adam McBride your thoughts on the wasabi privacy issue dude you guys got me so fucking terrified to buy bitcoins thinking I might be buying fucking dirty coins dude I had like I did not realize I mean I've heard about it but I didn't realize it was a big collector's item coins. Hey Adam. I mean if coins you lease your problems NFTs are the heart of all money laundering right now I got to just put it out there. Bro I wish I had more money to laundromat and I wish. You know what I said. Yeah I don't know I mean I'm with you get more privacy not less like more more privacy and whether that happens on Bitcoin or lightning or you know if it happens at the protocol level. It's amazing but I mean we see what's happening right these these companies are now terrified they're seeing what's happening on a global scale with governments around the world they're trying to take preemptive steps to keep themselves safe because they want to have. You know companies that function and can make money and you know whether it happens on a protocol level which you guys seem to think is unlikely. So that's the next thing I mean it are these things built on a level like this gets forked and it's just by done by like an anonymous organization does something like this I don't know man you guys. You know the experts. Sorry done. I was just going to say it may be in a sweet ironic touch as governments get more and more into Bitcoin they'll realize that they don't the governments don't want their own transactions to be so public and therefore there'll be advocates of privacy they'll be like oh we can't just have all of our transactions public so we need to have more private transactions on the Bitcoin network and that will be the driver of privacy being being pushed in Bitcoin. I love that strategy that's a great strategy. Well it's it's quite true I have like and this was man over six or seven years ago talk to higher bankers who when you know we would be like why don't you guys start working with Bitcoin and the answer that came back from two major ones that I talked to was it's not private enough. So you know there's that but what one thing that's very fascinating and I and I hope that Bitcoin can get there somewhere as well is that Ethereum for instance is less private than Bitcoin doesn't have the old UTXO stuff it's it's you know you have one address everything goes back and forth to the one address. And so it's quite easy to track there's there's none of that sort of is that the change addresses at night there's you know although all the channel us stuff of snitch us stuff can can see past that there still is in a court of law that the one of the main pillars of a court of law and in a democratic modern society is that beyond a shadow of a doubt concept to be held guilty and this is the thing that a lot of the mixers. The mixers or the the Bitcoin model of address and change addresses is that it does mix in that tiny bit of shadow of a doubt and so it's it can you know help people out in that way you know advocating criminals get away with stuff or anything like that i'm just you know putting it out there as a theoretical of course but but yeah what what's interesting about the Ethereum side even though it's more traceable because of the functionality of being able to code smart contracts you can do a lot of interesting stuff so all these decentralized exchanges you can really start to do crazy stuff where where you don't where you can start to obfuscate the transactions a lot more and throw stuff around convert things to another token which then goes over here and then spits out to 15 different addresses and adrops to things over here and you can do anything right because you can code it so I would really love to see more you know some some smart contract stuff on Bitcoin I really, really would I mean I'm going to do that. I mean I would love to build stuff and most of it's on like side chains like stacks and ISK but but I'd really like to see some in lightning I'd like to see lightning network and the RGB network really come to fruition because those the depths there are working hard on that stuff and I think it'll I think that could really help on the privacy side as well. I think we'll be able to solve it today but we will discuss privacy again in the future but we're running out of time we're moving on to issue five issue five can I just can I just hop in so it's a really interesting precedent which is Crawford and the Royal Bank which is happening in Scotland in the 1700s and it was where Crawford signed all these bank notes and then try to argue that those bank notes then belong to him or something can it's called Crawford and the versus the Royal Bank and the precedent was set it's called the fungibility of bank notes absolute currency absolute currency of money in that if you have a money then it has to be fungible that you can't have tainted money but it's it these things have been realized about if you have money and what money to be able to work that you can't have money which is worth which has been tainted as so many which hasn't been tainted and you just can't have money. That was established back in the 1700s. Yeah but that's that's fungibility with a Bitcoin system you can track everything you have a database you can track millions or hundreds of millions of addresses so they're using that against us the technology features. Yeah and in that case the bin brought up that's fungibility through law because every bank note has has an has a unique non fungible number so so actually by law they're just not allowed to say hey by the way because you go to the bank with with a bunch of money that you earn and the bank can't just take it from you and bring it back to the police station and return it back to the person who was stolen from three transactions ago because of that. And so it would be interesting to see if like somewhere like El Salvador that's made a legal tender out of Bitcoin would grant Bitcoin the similar idea of of fungibility through law rather than through technology. Well we just have to get Bitcoin the Trojan horse inside the walls it has to bend and not break and it doesn't have to be perfect but more and more we're seeing all the financial people are helping and they're carrying the Trojan horse inside the wall. The unanimous decision from the courts was that money is not subject to any victim relay and it cannot be vindicated from the bona fide process process. However clear of the proof of the theft may be so you can't say that these coins have been tainted. Yeah looking up the Crawford and the road versus the roll bank important case. This but it also sounds like our money now goes through a relay and could be tainted so the technology of the issue has changed previously hand to hand cash is not relayed but Bitcoin's clearly relayed so they might have to revisit that case in the future and it might not go well for Bitcoin moving on to issue five board ape yacht clubs, ape coin Dow airdrops millions of ape coins to NFT owners yes board ape yacht club is back in the news again after purchasing the assets of crypto punks and me bits just a couple of weeks ago and the leftover crypto punks and me bits they've now launched their own coin delivering most of the coin to ape holders. Adam McBride your thoughts on this exciting development in the NFT industry and more and more looking like the board ap yacht club industry get get ready for another NFT bull run my friends bye bye bye bye right now quick Martin come on man get on board brother by your first NFT man this is it. Yeah this is it's those guys are geniuses straight up straight up those guys get it they understand what they're doing I'm not saying it's look when you look at the breakdown of how much the ape holders and the dog holders and the mutants got that percentage is so small compared to the entire like coin release. The amount that you guys is like keeping for themselves keeping for the founders keeping for the team who I mean it's incredible that they were able to convince every all these board ape holders that this is a great deal while they're going to literally be billionaires from this this coin drop. It's incredible you know for for the NFT space it's very exciting everybody gets fired up because it's free money right in theory it's free right if you bought a board ap it you know 300 grand though it's not really free right you bought into this kind of ecosystem I just think the the guys who run you are just so in tune with with what gets the NFT space excited. Did it can't be underestimated I mean I think this may be the first coin that works from a project standpoint just they they obviously the entire space knows about it it's all over the news the globe is knowing about it so I wouldn't get in its way that's for sure I wouldn't be shorting this one because it's just got so much momentum it's going to be hard to stop. Well and what I want to lade them for here is their execution because we had many of the similar ideas we thought that we should have a membership club you thought that we could have our own currency to reward our members to even trade our NFTs or our karaoke cards in but our execution wasn't there we weren't at the right time and what they've done is coming at the right time and just execute perfectly that's why I think the crypto punks holders were probably in the right decision to give their IP seller IP for probably billions of dollars. To them because they will handle it well and I do think they're going to handle it the strange new membership club with a membership club currency I think they're going to handle it well I think they've got the right execution and again this idea has been out there for a long time as Kurt Vonnegut Jr said in his book slapstick Americans just really want to be part of a club and what he suggested is that since we don't have enough cousins and brothers we don't have large enough families anymore that everyone would be assigned an adjective like red. And a number like 15 as a new middle name now suddenly anyone who also has the middle name red is like your brother or sister everyone has the number 15 is like your cousin now there's all these red clubs and all these towns you could go to there's all these 15 clubs if you need a place to stay and just like your current relatives you like some of them and you don't like others people love to join clubs they love to collect things board a Piot club with the 8 coin. Seems to have a handle on this they seem to have an understanding on this and more importantly they have the execution and now hundreds of millions maybe billions of dollars to back this up by hiring other professionals and so far to work on their project full time so I think it's going to be huge I don't know about the price or anything like that but just in general this is a good company or it seems from the outside I don't know anything. Just add kind of one number if you guys haven't seen it the percentage they gave to existing holders right so that's like basically 20,000 people the existing holders was 14% of all the coins so 14% went to them 14% went to the core team 8% went I mean the amount they they were got was so small I just I know I I know if I even put it out on Twitter I would get beaten down as being like flooding and all this sort of stuff. But it's just it's amazing that that team was able to say oh this tiny bit we're going to give out and you guys are going to be happy with it and people were thrilled. They really have the pulse on the market that's for sure. Like we said earlier with the price going up saving or not saving El Salvador the price of the board apes went up it was a point three Ethereum and now it's 30 Ethereum or more or whatever it is people made lots of money they're very happy maybe Paris Hilton or Jimmy Fallon they haven't made lots of money. Maybe they're counting this eight coin like Adam was saying but again if you have to put in millions of dollars to get back thousands even if it's denominated in eight coin it's not a good deal. Dan Eve your thoughts on eight coin taking over the world. Well the thing is with giving it a load percentages right it's been to the public and then you know keeping it off of founders. It's it's a tried and tested method that as much as you can criticize it it's still successful and Ethereum kind of has proved that and various other coins as well where you've got the founders sort of reward was like a C cash and last but I don't know where C cash is nowadays maybe more 2017 heads still back on. But ultimately the people that the people that are buying into it don't give a crap because they believe that their money is going to go completely nuts and the people outside other ones that are most likely to criticize it you know you don't shit on your own doorstep so. I don't own a board apes i'm not going to lie I wish I got one not 300k I wish I bought one like a five or whatever they were going that was cheap like anything. But yeah the end of the day it's a kind of a drop people get excited about a drops they you know they didn't they didn't you know came out of nowhere so for these people that even. But I'm bought a really high rates it's a kind of consolation prizes a booby prize right it's like well I bought my ball board eight really high but now they've almost not just a consolation prize but they've almost got like a backup thing right so they've got this free money that they can either sell and get something back or. If the momentum of both of these things does well and the token they've got is going to go up and the actual four apes are going to go back up again and so they've almost got like a this this spiral of publicity there's each one is going to help the other so for the people that are in. Then cool beans and the people that are out. Yeah we should have Nate. And they've already done a great job rewarding the fans of their their products Adam I don't know the exact details but did everyone get a mutant ape or did they all get a syringe I know they upgrade yeah you got a serum back back in the day you know the olden days long the long long ago like eight months ago yeah you got you got a you got a serum which allowed you to take your your ape and basically get a whole nother NFT which is the mutants and some people still have those. And some of those serums are like one traded for like I don't even know 1500 or 2000 ETH just crazy crazy numbers yeah obviously the lottery ticket of all lottery tickets was buying an ape at launch but you know regrets it's part of the NFT space man. So obviously if you have one valuable thing and then the company gives you another valuable thing that you could sell if you want and then maybe another valuable thing if it mutates and then now you get some valuable ape coin they're just doing a classic textbook good job of rewarding their fans and while it's simple to say hey just give them money people do like free money Joshua Shagalla are you an ape holder are you looking for some free money. I wouldn't want to be part of a club that has people like me as members so I'm saying but yeah it's it's amazing I agree with Adam this is a tried and true method of you know air dropping especially with the very vast numbers like trillions you see that in some of the other some crypto projects like some like 200 trillion tokens so there's people that feel like wow I've got 10 billion imagine if it goes to one dollar this is the sort of you know logic but hey you know I think it's all an experiment I think if people are willing to try it I think go for it and people burn their hands and they won't do it again or they actually do well the important part is that we need people like Adam educators in the space because it is for full of danger and it is highly speculative I mean it's the art market right so it's one of these things where we need educators and people like this show you know shows like this shows like atoms and many other podcasters are there primarily to teach people you know the good ones teach people what scams look like what do they look like now if this looks like a scam hey it's up to you you might you might be able to sell it quicker than the other guy and it is what it is but I'm a big fan of people learning people taking responsibility for their finances of course there is the old gambling gene and some people have very very strongly and it's very unfortunate because it does ruin families but again we're all human the Darwinian race towards something so you know if you if you screw up too often you might not mate that's what it comes down to so yeah I think it all comes down to education and people touching that candle a few times or once at least and going oof okay that's like I'm not going to do that again and arc they've got their own membership cards they've got their own currency if they started collecting taxes they'd be a government what do you think about the board a Piot club I have literally no idea about any of the words any of you've just said and I've no I read they're at the heading for the article and it just confused me though lots of words and understand cool crack on like when it comes to Bitcoin I'm sure it'll all make sense for now it's the Wild West and I mean it's just whatever it's just this this thing I don't understand and I am amazed that people have the mind space feel to like get the heads around Bitcoin and then also get the heads around all these other complicated things is it on a theorem is it like an Ethereum thing like is it built on a thing was about one of these a theory of like because Ethereum can actually do the things the same supposed to do so you build these words shit side chains where they have to like every now and then they have to do these these like stamps where they take the whole ledger and then they make a hash and then they put in the theory of blockchain and then they could roll back the thing like the magic type shit like is it that or is it is on a theory like what what I wouldn't say it's that but they are doing some of this kind of crazy stuff where it's like okay it's a token and then they've you know in order to try and protect themselves they set up a Dow right and then they set up a foundation to manage the Dow and all this stuff soft shore and it's all these layers and all this kind of decentralized stuff which we talked about it's cool it's called it's called it's a membership card it's a membership club profile picture thing yeah you have to eat profile picture and now you get to go to the parties but I get some of the ape coin you can ape you get the syringe you get all the all the it's it's innovating and it's exciting but I mean a lot of it feels like a castle bill and sand because I'm going to trust in the thing was it is but cool like crazy words do the things and then eventually when like it comes into my world like and like a no coin it'll all make sense to be like email I'd be like what is internet and then all of a sudden internet will make sense that so yeah, recommend still to see these kind of organizations raise trillions of dollars while you're suffering out there in the wilderness with Ellen bits I don't know Ben just doesn't seem right just like I really like dials is what I mean instinctively I like dials is a way of organizing stuff I think it's cool but yeah when it gets to me it'll it'll all be fixed and will make sense so carry on innovating Martin Wismer another member of the board apiot club right here No not for me I personally wouldn't touch any coins that have picture of a dog on it and the fact that it took 54 years after the original planet of the Apes movie to actually launch ape coin, you know, I don't have the time of that that that kind of patience so no no yacht board apiot club for me no ape coins no projects on and Ben says Build on quick sense like the Ethereum network. It's just not my thing but you know whatever floats your boat if it's nice and you just like you know you at least you know by the time You know it all goes down you can still say I have a picture of a board ape and at my you know And you might be able to print it on a t-shirt and say well this is this is my ape I got the right students ape I'm actually the owner of this ape I lost all my money, but you know I do have a picture of this ape so yeah Whatever floats your boat, but I will not be joining and and maybe just maybe if it all wants it all mature stuff We'll start building applications for it and and and and and machines that sell apes. I don't know I don't know you can have a I can go see an ATM and I can put like 20 euros in and I can get a picture of an ape Yeah, well, yeah sure one day in the distant future Yeah, yeah, we can all dream are they bored, but is it a board ape or is it excited? I don't know no, it's an ape smoking a sick guy. So it's extra special It's interesting is how but the as you mentioned about the club right there's other businesses that are trying to capitalize on this So they're saying like right if you if you own a board ape your club like NFT you can you can if you prove that you only You can then get certain perks on our platform. So then owning it becomes this kind of you know like hold it the American Express like gold card or whatever Like the uranium card whatever the highest one is down You got free peanuts There's three peanuts. Yeah exactly. I said free penis first of all you get free penis No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, unlimited penis But yeah, like it's becoming like this special club where you can use your Yours use your NFT as a sort of ticket extra ticket entry to a VIP area So it's interesting to see what they're doing with it But yeah, it's all it's it's all newfangled technology stuff as well for me. It was crazy NFC things Our teens ideas have led me to an interesting global warming analogy perhaps that's just the board apiot club is mocking everyone who doesn't Believe in global warming and not taking enough action soon enough and they're like you stupid apes You're just sitting there doing nothing like Greta would say what would Greta say? Daniel shame how dare you It once again, what a society we can we can raise trillions of dollars for these apes and we can have private parties on yachts This is the biggest thing in the industry Adam try to explain to Ben how big I can idiot What they're trying to do what the apes are trying to do and you galabs is trying to do is make the default token or the default currency for all like in-game currencies and things like that So anybody what they're trying to do is is make this so big a coin that if I'm making a new video game And I want to include a token within the game for like a play to earn game I'm gonna use the ape token because it already has like a market for trading and so they're trying to be How could a company all right literally what they're doing how could a company already be so big that it could smell its own farts Like this technology they've developed it's just amazing like how could they do that? But yes, Ben. It's huge It's like Jimmy Fallon in Paris out in both own one of these things and we're talking about on TV They bought them through concierge services that go out and buy a bunch of these and then sell them as a catalog To other rich people who don't have time to shop on the open market And these they weren't they weren't the first they're not early all those things but like like Adam I've been saying the company just seems really well organized. They have a really good plan They're executing incredibly well and yes trillions of dollars. They could probably buy El Salvador And they probably wouldn't want to do you think these are like professional adults in the room now like you have all the Crypto crit kitty creating us and then you have to keep saying obviously it's worth a lot of money They're let's some big gig of brains come in the room and do this thing properly and I would think so given by the deal They did with crypto punks. They this other company larva labs owned the actual first ones other than Kerio cards and some other things And they sold their intellectual property and they're left over crypto punks to this company basically saying You guys can handle this better. You could run it better than us You can serve the community Adam. What do you think anything else about this company? Yeah, they're the leaders in the space. I mean period and and they believe in a kind of decentralized NFT web3 future that and they want to be People would say the Disney of that or the big company of that they want to be the Dominator and they have the two biggest NFT brands Under their roof and so they made a huge move. God knows how much they paid for The crypto punk IP. I mean estimates are in the like 300 million dollar range for that IP So we'll see how it works man. I mean it's a huge risk and you know, there's a lot of a significant risk that these go down tremendously obviously, but there's also a Tremendous upside that this that they got it right and if they do this is a Who knows the value of this come? This is a potentially a trillion dollar brand? What what chain what chain is that is the token? So these are on a theorem. Yeah on on based a theorem and they want to be the coin on every So that what they'd like to be is is be the coin for all these kind of play to earn games I mean at the core that's what it is people are into this like play to earn Game building business like everybody wants to be the next axi or somehow incorporate coins into all these kind of But I mean we're we're you know, we're doing a lot of R&D at the moment on on a theorem and and on a theorem virtual machine So it doesn't have to be a theorem, but It's it's almost impossible that a theorem will scale It it will scale only with with a whole bunch of different puzzle pieces coming together and one of them being the whole side chain or roll ups I'm a big advocate of the roll ups. I think they're really good Especially the ZK ones because they had the privacy in there or what they can at the privacy they don't at the moment, but I don't if they're doing it purely on a theorem I'm sure they've got plans to do it on some sort of layer to because Which is one way I think they're going to be curing all their technical problems with money Because you can do anything with money and there's a pay to earn games Adam was talking about also featured on South Park also a fantastic series of episodes there and One of the other neat ideas I think they're going to work on with the IP of the crypto punks and the board apes is both television shows animated shows and movies with these characters video games with these characters and then Maybe we'll even see that idea where if you own the character and your character becomes popular in the video game Somehow you get some money from having your ape in the video game or your ape in the cartoon television show these ideas were very theoretical to us But this company is actually going to have money to write the scripts to hire the people to make the animation That was one thing I wanted to do a year ago when crypto kiddies came out because I actually come from an animation background I wanted to buy some really cheap crypto kiddies and And then make an animation series with that one and They have to then sell it you can do this but you just have to marry Ashton Kutzer That's where you went wrong if you just married Ashton Kutzer now Television shows cartoons based on NFTs and who knows maybe they'll be successful maybe they're It's it's wrong up to the thing where they take the stock shot thing Yeah, yeah, I read into that shit man And it sounded really cool and complex in crypto we on the surface But then when I looked into it's sound like piece of shit. They just Take these snapshots which then they can like if they need to they can roll back their chain On the on their side chain And then they just take that thing and then they put it into a theory because the theory can't actually do the things it promises it can do Yeah, like there's more there's there's different versions of it so There's there's one based on a lot of more trust and that's And then there's ones that aren't based on trust and they're the ones I'm interested in where they can't roll back But yeah, it's obviously also if it's centralized on that say yeah, I mean there's a lot of work to be done and Just like lightning wasn't perfect and has a lot of issues, you know, that need to be solved There's a lot of issues that need to be solved here and no one's saying it's all been solved and it's all perfect But there's a lot of good brains trying to try to make it work. So we'll see We'll see and Yeah, I mean if it wasn't for people like yourself Lightning wouldn't be where it is now I don't know I think lightning's pretty good man like it says as a side chain as a pre-war thought It's kind of working is they expected it would work from the beginning to work fine for me. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying it wouldn't but it was because of people like Ben and and and fear Jeff and and I mean Thousands of people working and building and and fixing certain things fixing the the routing issues and You know, there's a whole bunch of stuff that needed to be worked on for it to be Working and and it's you know, it's amazing. But I'm just saying it wasn't On on day one when when segwit came through the door It didn't just instantly work I don't know I mean, I think I think it's kind of different from these Ethereum protocols Because they do feel a bit band-aid like oh no, this can't do that thing which we thought it could do So now we're gonna come up with this new way of doing it which Whereas with lightning it was like oh no, we you know Bitcoin can't scale I mean no it can't scale to do all these transactions and microcoins transactions And there's a sort of very well thought out protocol which is developed over an incredible amount of time Whereas with Ethereum it all feels I mean still the move fast break things It's cool because they innovate and they come up with all these great, you know NFTs and whatever else all this new fangled technology But Yeah, it always feels like a bit like oh, well, oh actually, I we can't do it on the stone So now we're gonna have to build this other thing and then we have this roll-up thing we do the little little little And um ultimately like a lot of it just feels like it could just be kind of done in a centralized way and uh and work up talking of Fiat Jeff actually he's got the um have you seen at Lennyam? That Lennyam is centralized smart contracts, which is like a a master troll Ethereum And it's actually very cool at Lennyam if anyone anyone in the audience wants to go google at Lennyam Centralized smart contracts, so it's quite a good idea in fact um, but uh, yeah anyway, uh, yeah I don't know I don't know the museum's just cares me because it's just every time I look at it It's like more hacky bits built on top of hacky bits to make it work Yeah, I mean the thing is like I The thing is I cannot build what I need to on Bitcoin Um, this is the biggest issue I'll say it's an impatient technology for impatient people like I mean, I'm like when I when I wanted to make my collectibles and I couldn't make my collectibles on Bitcoin We had to go to aetherium and everyone was critical of us at the time But now everyone else has gone to the same solution. We might see no, I'm still critical Yeah, I'm still critical to I mean, I think that it is it's an imp There was always that promise like the side points realized it early on they were like they were really wrote about An almost transaction systems and then they realized that they would then have all this other stuff All this utility built on top of it and it was like okay, well now we have Bitcoin now and all the sort of utility where we can't Happen's because we know showing complete blah blah so then Vitalik makes a theory when they and it feels like they're trying to like push towards that Futurist those futurist ideas which were outlined by the side points early on but they're trying to do it too early You know like it's like the the technology is not being built As a as a test net side shit as it you know as a test net chain whatever like carry on and then all the stuff eventually If it's good enough to lend up on Bitcoin It is interesting you expect the more centralized institutions like coinbase or something to maybe leading the way on these things But then it's Binance coming in out of left field you expect these traditional things to have it and then Board apiot club comes in out of left field you never know Where the innovation is going to come from and like Josh is saying bends LN bits and all of the volunteers and other programmers there They're coming out of left field and making major changes to this industry as well Exciting to see I think we're gonna head towards the end of the show here Are you ready with a prediction? I know Adam McBride is ready with a prediction So we'll go to him first prediction then story of the week then we're gonna do a little talk about the 300 And then we're gonna be out because it's all right. He really long episode You're gonna see you're gonna see a board ape trade for 10 million dollars in the next month or so. It's gonna it's gonna go crazy Oh 10 million dollars. That's crushing still a chance you could send me a free board ape come on I'll join your club. I have to just send me one maybe two then I'll have one to sell dan eave a prediction tell us about the future Uh Okay, so I think last I can't remember what I did last week But I think I went to no nuclear war and I think I was correct so nice and easy one and I'm gonna go for a prediction Next week that there will also be no nuclear war and I think that also Bitcoin will go up So I'm doing a double prediction, which is like one of those like betting slips where you do the combination things where you've got to get two Matches in a row or you know two matches that the same prediction. So no nuclear war and Bitcoin on the up again Rt and wish man a prediction Now I don't have only ever story off the week so All right, so Yeah, his prediction is he has no prediction that no prediction came true came true already then arc of prediction. Are you ready on Doris? That's it. It's a single word prediction Joshua Shigala. Can you top Honduras? Do you have maybe another word to repeat? Um um prediction prediction prediction I actually don't have one I'm prediction loss at a loss All right, let's go to Adam McBride. Do you have a story of the week go ahead Adam Story of the week is NFTs man. Are you guys got to get into him bro? This is the future We're building the future on the Ethereum blockchain and no Ethereum is not a test net. It's a real blockchain I Keep trying to convince those that the blockchain it's a blockchain It's a blockade. I think I think Thomas said it right which is like look all this stuff is just built by humans man And it's flawed and crappy and we just keep working man And hopefully we're working to a better future who knows what's gonna happen and they could all go to zero my friends Something could break it at all ends tomorrow, but I'm hopeful that smart people like you guys build the future for You got some great talent in the theory. I just want them all back back in Bitcoin Dan e of a story of the week Um, no nice stories from me Josh Shagalla story of the week anybody this week Um, I Basically the story of the week is where Signing deals also to do with NFT marketplaces for S euro so that S euro will be the base currency And then the other currencies to be traced out there as well and we're releasing a version two of the white paper because there was a bunch of stuff after a whole bunch of R&D over the last months To fix up certain game theoretical issues, but also one of the things that we really saw When we have we have an in-house data analyst Voltau and I said why didn't any other euro stablecoin come out and what happened to the USD stablecoins that failed What was the main issue in them then every time it was lack of liquidity So we worked really strongly to figure out um how to launch with deep deep liquidity from the get go and we solved it by taking the best of a few different protocols and um and figuring out what they did right what they did wrong And and putting it together so i'm really excited about that and uh yeah come over to the discord at the standard.io and uh and uh Yeah, see what we're doing because it'll be coming out pretty soon. It's gonna be really like i think we're going to compete with every CBDO Because centralized stablecoins will all be made illegal and decentralized stablecoins was where it's at And we're building really the most advanced one that will mirror every single fiat currency in the world And be fully collateralized There you go It's my story is it based on the ape point does the Sadly So we're really aiming for that layer zero thing layer zero of stablecoins that's basically where we're going So the ape can be on top of us, but maybe they can use apis collateral And you can learn more at the standard.io Ben arkt you have a story of the week for us Can they share screen Go ahead the dude Good on him Well done to that bloke Found five thousand bitcoin on his old laptop So That's topping out on reddit and then two days later got the love of his life even though he's a oap Oh Oh no You said romance is dinner Yeah So you know the story of the guy this is the guy He found the love of his life But she loves his private keys Yeah, that guy is a story of the week And oh, I have got a question though Because things happen on this show don't they like you put ideas out there like Um Tali coin and then someone goes and makes it and then it becomes really useful And it's in the news and it's everywhere and then you have like real world impact So I'm going to put the idea out there because you've got an fc people on on on the line now So we can talk talk about NFTs Why really want Talking about computer games is what maybe the eight point people like this Why really want is like I think you know top Trump so they want to top Trump's Like it's like you have like you're like you're like little boxes of cards and it has to like the simpsons top Trump's And then it'll be like a different Simpson and then they'll have like five different stats like Strength And then you'll have to like play against each other and then you'll say one thing and then the other person's gonna have like a High number than you to beat you you know what that is they's probably got a different name in different parts of the world And in the UK it's called top Trump's you know what top Trump says don't you yeah yeah It's got some more like Like a motorbike and it'll be like top speed acceleration to six to two. Yeah, I saw tractor one That's what tractors tractor Yeah, right so so my idea for it for I say For the NFT world right is And I think this would be quite cool as right so so you have of so remember um Yes, go. I mean I was teaching kids and they were buying these vouchers to play csco and csco you get this this crate And the more you spend on these these vouchers the more likely you are when you open this crate that you get like a decent weapon with decent stats So my idea is that you have like a vault and then you send money to the vault and then the more money you send to it the more likelihood is that you will get like a good quality Card back now. It's called a generic top Trump. So it's not simpsons. It's not tractors. It's not motorbikes. It's not cars It's a generic Jason of integers. Okay, so you have the first integer of six integers the first one is from zero to a thousand And then the other one actually all of them are zero to a thousand the first one is a Type and then the the other ones are like stats. So for example, so I put money into this vault I get my generic top Trump now this generic top Trump protocol. I can bring this into a game to say if I bring into Grand Theft Auto Zero to 20 in Grand Theft Auto Might be like this sports bike. Okay, and then 20 to 40 might be some car or something And then 40 to that might be a gun So that depends so in game they can decide which Item it is on that integer. Okay, that's the first thing. So I bring it in and then in Grand Theft Auto it was the sports bike saying And then Because I didn't put much money in but I was quite lucky. So I had like a high stats. So I had like high acceleration And then shitty handling shitty cornering shitty blah blah blah. Right. I take that same generic top Trump right and at protocol NFT And then I take that and I bring it into I don't know like Uh fortnight and then it's it's a weapon or if I bring it into water warcraft and it's a different type of weapon So I could bring in this this protocol this generic NFT protocol Generic top Trump NFT protocol. I can bring it into different games and then it's different items with different stats um And uh it's like CS go like you the more money put in the more likely you are to get one of these things out Now what's quite cool about it is that the vault itself then is accumulating money Which could then be I thought you could use it for something like paying for development So if there was like the ethereum you know developers or I see I don't know what you call them the ethereum cabal Right if they had one of these this this vault and then people put a theory man Then they get this fucking thing out right and then the the vault then sends the funds to all the main contributors on this on the ethereum repo Okay, periodically every month or something so they'll get paid But then you've also got the secondary market then where these tokens float around and there were different values Because you could bring them into different games and you know that crappy uh That that generic NFT Top Trump in Grand Theft Auto and it has like the car with a really good handling but crappy everything else that's actually more Warcraft it might be ace it might be like a super fake gnarly axe which you can smash someone But then don't let someone you know hit the axe because it might explode because it's actually very weak Um so yet that's my idea I want to put out there And I want someone to like do something with a make it because I think it's a cool idea um Uh, but um I I don't know how to make it because I don't know how to do an ft things but I'm gonna have to listen I'm gonna have to listen to that all over again about 30 times to understand what you just said It's the I think it's a cool idea you should yeah, you should and make it. It's good But this should be a protocol like because top Trump's are really Whatever they're called where you are because I don't think they're called I think it's just a new chemical top Trump's When you know what they're everywhere these things you're seeing in stores everywhere They're all different cards you'll have like Avengers top Trump's Simpsons tractors cards, but a lot right It's an important part of our real world life for little kids and playing cards and families when they're on holiday Play these cards. Don't don't kids play on the Nintendo. Do you yes nowadays? We're not but you could bring this into the Nintendo DS game. See this is the point Did they do the post-op ones? They didn't they do Pepe Pepe type ones where they have different powers like that Yeah, exactly, but this is like a different version So you could in fact, yeah, we could have like online things that online get out you could print them out and they could be different characters and whatever but also you could bring them into computer games so that I I see An issue here, which is the same reason why we don't see cryptocurrency uh Acceptance in the video games is that the makers of the video games usually make money selling loot boxes and selling you the weapon with their own in house currency because that way they are not only the game developer They're also the bank and this protocol how cool it would be is that you can like, you know, you can exchange your items between games But at the same time it would take away money from the game developers and Last and last rock star they do this thing and then they pay their developers and then these Protocol you can then exactly it's all the different rock star games. So you have to get you have to get them on board I think I think we're running out of time you know hard time getting people two and a half hours into this show to find the The thing you guys are talking about oh, but it is the 300th episode of the show So I wanted to leave some time And Dan what do you think about the 300th episode the Bitcoin group any Memories of watching the show or being on the show something you want to highlight and then we'll just go down the group and then I'll try to thank people at the end I'm gonna forget people that I'm already I don't have a good enough list. Well, it's just an incredible like Incredible being part of it like I haven't been here from the start and there's obviously been many people on the way So that kind of being in that chain of people that uh show chains of a blockchain It's just a real big honor and being what 300 is like the longest running so happens 2013 was or 23rd 14 where it started 2013 Absolutely incredible 2014 I remember watching mad bitcoins in 2013 but not WC so like so so I think it's just cool that you know Years ago nearly 10 years ago. I was getting inspired by you like buying mining equipment and bankrupting myself You're crazy ass psychedelic backgrounds and now I'm a part of you know one of the shows So I think I'm absolutely honored and what you've done it with WCN and mad bitcoins is incredible. So absolutely kudos man Thanks so much Dan Martin you're not about the I Remember like the Thomas you were like the mad bitcoins show was the very first show I watched on my mobile it was some shitty of crappy HTC back then my data connection was slow I was stuck into traffic jam and I put my phone on the dashboard of the car and I was watching Show about bitcoins in my car and it felt like you know this we are changing the world here, you know One show at a time and it's 300 episodes later, you know, I'm still there. I'm still watching I think it's amazing the consistency at which shows have been produced You've been like, you know recording shows like Presently every continent in the world on the world on this planet now. So you know in Europe Different shows, you know Every time and always like you know the latest news in crypto. So I think for the viewers It's just the one stop source for anything crypto and I think you did an amazing job there And it's I'm really proud I get to join every once in a while for the show because you know It's the world crypto network. It's the original with the sharpest atoshis From almost 10 years now Thanks so much, Marti. It's great And I know a lot of people have told the story how they used to talk back at the show at home And then they got a chance to be on the show And I think that's really fun that you know pretty much anyone that wants to eventually Can work their way up to the show Let's go see Shagala your thoughts on the 300th episode Yeah, man. I gotta I just got a backup whatever and I'll say it's real It's a real honor to be on the show. I think it's amazing to think 300 shows And if it was a daily show you think oh yeah, you know a couple of years, but uh yeah, you know But it's it's once a week So to get that many shows and it's just every Friday Is is is really phenomenal and um and I I I've got to You know think about all those great shows and all the great information and also the inspiration that I had from from guests that have been on the show and and and being challenged as well um both philosophically and politically and You know, that's what I one thing that I've loved about the show is you know, I'm a crazy libertarian nut job and and you're on the opposite side of the spectrum I feel in terms of the old school political left right wing stuff and and what I love is that We're here and we're together and we don't have this cancel culture thing where we're like I don't want to hear it. I get offended and and instead we battle it out and this is something It's quite unique nowadays because nowadays people are all in their echo chambers where they feel good and they don't get offended And they're nice and cozy and they just you know bury themselves and get deeper and deeper into their own philosophical crap So uh, so that's that's really solid and it's one of these things where Uh, I think it's just fantastic that uh that you have all sorts of views and and walks of life on the show And um, yeah, I think I'm hoping and I'm looking forward to the next 300 Thanks so much Josh Ben are your thoughts on episode 300 100% same, you know longtime fan Thomas it's amazing you've been going for such a long time. It's been consistent It's it's been a go-to for just getting the the digest on the news of the week Um, and it's the it's all the I mean obviously some of the audience they they you know Feel the need to actually get in front of the the camera and and participate in the panel Such as ourselves who are here now and we all fans who've been ended up becoming you know participants But all the audience who you were just sort of inspired by the dialogue and the information and the the energy and the The just the the focus, you know, even one times even when it went all cool. There's periods and bitcoins Timeline went way quiet and nobody cared about bitcoin and we you Continually they're slugging away from me. I was I remember when I was teaching a Friday night I used to get a bunch of beers. I sit in the bath. I trip my beers and I'd watch the bitcoin group I used to shout at the the screen And then eventually I had to I had to get in and join and participate But you know, thank you Thomas Then also thank you to the audience as well because they've always been incredible and quite often like the the chat There's like two shows going on at the same time. There's the show which we're doing and there's the show which is going on in the chat And there's always really interesting information in there as well Um, and you know just staying on the straight and narrow like you know, I think a Bitcoin group is one of the main reasons I didn't get too Deep into the shit going world And that that was great. So um Yeah, we're real inspiration and honestly a part of it and 300 is incredible You know when you say it's like it is it's a weekly show and it's not even every week. There were periods where it's we didn't have shows for a few weeks I remember like What I was working I remember there'd be those weeks where there was no show at the end of the week And it threw me like it's through my routine And then I'd be off I'd be like for the for the whole week I'd be there for there wasn't a Bitcoin group. What do I do? And then that was part of the reason I wanted to participate because I was like okay They haven't got a people they need more people to get the show after joining and do something Uh, so no fantastic. It's it's a real uh, it's it's a pleasure. It's an honor and it's it's always enjoyable to be on and as Josh said It's it's great to like have that conversation and have this back-and-forth of ideas and we affect you know Uh, uh, Josh with our You know fucking commy lefty ideas and then Josh infects us with those free market libertarian ideas and it's it's we just exists and it's great. I love it Thanks so much Ben and again the reason we started this show originally I had mad bitcoins I was kind of silly I even was maybe even a little pseudo anonymous at first But then it seemed like there was a gap there for more serious discussion of Bitcoin And I like let's talk Bitcoin and if you guys notice you go back to the archives We actually had and Dreis Antonopoulos and Adam McBride or sorry Adam Levine. Sorry Adam Adam B Levine from let's talk Bitcoin on the show and it was great to have their contributions And it was great to try to do this more serious discussion obviously it's pattern after the McLaughlin group John McLaughlin Reston piece started a political show in the 70s where he did the same kind of round table And they would have the strong opinions they'd have the strong moderator and All of these ideas are taken from McLaughlin So it's great to be able to continue this idea of what I enjoyed about the McLaughlin group was like like Ben was saying Left wing right wing Disagreting with each other even getting loud and at the end of the show they're like oh this is all fine Let's go drink whiskey and smoke cigars They don't have a concern about it. We can still talk about these issues Before I run out of time. I want to thank a try to remember some of the names I want to thank Sam for always updating our podcast Sam in India did for many years updated the world crypto network podcast Cory also later out helped on the podcast I want to thank Jeremy for doing the time codes for many years He did little time codes at the bottom in the comments. You could go straight to an issue. That's really useful More recently our friend Marwee has been helping out with the scheduling so I say shout out to Marwe She scheduled all the people for this show and of course all the people who have helped out been commentators Chris Ellis tone vase Jimmy song Derek J. Christoff atlas mk. Lord's Dovey Barker so many early bit coiners who helped out on this show some of them didn't want to be on a TV show weren't ready for me to be yelling questions at them and things but they put up with that and they sacrifice to help the show And thanks to everybody else who gets all my messages every week about you want to be on the show You want to be on the show and not getting completely annoyed with me Because that's what I have to do and thanks of course the audience for giving us a thumbs up Putting in your comments and your chat even if you disagree with us I like that you put your comments out there and that hopefully you can enjoy the show like Josh said because it has many sides And we let everyone get their opinions out there. So thanks so much for watching Alex the clips guy Yeah, and the clips guy All the people there helping out with a show that that I forgot to all those people too but Thanks so much for joining us for 300 episodes like Josh said we're hoping for 300 more at least get up to 500 It takes a long time doing the weekly episodes We try not to miss a week and we do our best Thanks so much to everybody for joining us until next time