The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Martine Wishmare, from General Bites. Group, morning Bitcoin. Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. All right, all right, all right, give it up for candy. Josh Shagalla from the standard.io. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome. Ben Arck from LN Bits. No, Stoshamay, good evening, everybody. Gabriel D. Vahn from the World Crypto Network. Guten Tag, aren't you going to come in? And I'm Thomas Hunt also from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one issue one Bitcoin could hit 30k or 100k this year. What a range as analysts warns the next months could be key plan B, the legendary analyst with the stock to flow. That's right. There's less Bitcoin all the time. So they're going up in value chart says that it could go to 100k or 30k. Dan Eve, 100k or 30k, which way will it go? That's quite a lovely range, isn't it? I like it when when like, analysts kind of do that, do that. Well, it could go up or it could go down. And everyone's like, wow, very good, very good, very good theories. Yes, yes, yes. I suppose it leaves your options open, right? Because that way if it pumps, then you're right. And if it dumps you, then you're right. So you've got the angles covered. And people like people only remember the hits, right? It's like with psychics. They do the kind of the cold stuff. And people remember they're like, oh, that's Sandra. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's definitely Sandra. But at the end of the day, it does seem to be flowing in the same way as the stock to flow. It kind of kept in the in the blue lines, you know, in the blue in the blue area. And it does, it just seems like we're, you know, we're not double topping or at least I hope not. And if anything, I think it's going to be a really scary point when we when we start to reach the previous all time high. You know, if it gets, that's going to be like a real nail by it. Because if it pops over the top, then you know, we're, we're moaning. And if not, then, you know, that's going to be shut up shot for the next three years. And everyone on a downer, whilst we slowly, you know, lose, lose a bit of the Bitcoin height and then gain traction again, once there, once the next, the next harvining happens. So I'm on the side of 100, 100 K. Yeah. And I think actually pretty much the, this time last week, it was exactly, almost exactly the same price, I think. So maybe just a slightly fraction higher. So hopefully by the end of the show, if everyone buys a bit of Bitcoin, then I would have been right in my prediction last week that Bitcoin went up. So please buy Bitcoin. It's never too late. Joshua Shagala. Hey, um, you know, this is, this is why the importance of, of dollar cost averaging or gold cost averaging in my, in my, in the Valtteri world is, uh, it's really the way to go. These, these analysts like Ben's, like Dan said, are always doing the same thing. If you, if you watch every single analyst, they're like, you know, if we see this, reach that and test it again, we will go up. But if we see this and that, it will go down probably just as much as it's always at the end of watching the video, you're always like, I'm not any wiser at all. The thing with, the thing with trading, like if you want to be a trader, really, what you're looking for is not, it's definitely going up, definitely going down. And this is why they do that. It's more about like, okay, the chance is like 45% that it'll go down and 55% that it'll go up according to, you know, all sorts of triangles and squares and squiggly lines. And, and that's what you want to try to trade on is that tiny percentage difference. And you'll probably lose most of the time, but you'll sometimes win. So, you know, that's what it's all about. But it's, it's a kind of a bit of a slap in the face that article. I mean, why even publish that article? What's the point of it? What is it? Like, it's either going to go down 10 grand or 20 or up to like, all right. It's a competition for the largest range. And we all know that the true and only predictor of Bitcoin is right here and it's correct. 100% of the time. Then arc. Go ahead. For that readership, they've got to publish these articles. I think everyone when they first start, you know, getting into Bitcoin and maybe buy a little bit coin, a little bit of Bitcoin, they'll often just Google the Bitcoin price. And I'll just look for articles which talk about the Bitcoin price. So there's a big demand for readership. So obviously it's intensely boring and it goes up. It's got limited supply, huge increase in demands. It's because the technology is amazing and we all know that. And it's still, you know, a very nuanced and underused technology. And then occasionally we have some wild cards, some of them baked in such as the, the halvings, halving events, which obviously have a big impact on price and supply. And then some of them, which are baked in, some of them which are unforeseen, such as the Elon Musk. I mean, someone just placed a bet there. I hope you won. Make sure you click on the link in your wallet. Some of them are unforeseen like Elon Musk tweeting out, which can affect the price dramatically. So this is Dr. Flow ratio thing. I mean, it's such a wide channel. Oh, you lost. It's such a wide channel that, so you lost. That they're, they're always, yeah, they're always going to be right in one way or the other. But yeah, it's a pointless article. It's a 30k, whether in the over and together, you're hedging your bets there, aren't you by following those two different traders advice? Yeah. But it goes up in value because it's really good technology. And there's, you know, not of people are using it and it's going to continue to go up in value because of that. Buy it, hold it for five years. Don't do anything with it. Don't try and trade it. And then, you know, if you've bought a decent amount like 10 grams worth, then you'll probably be able to retire and whatever you make. So, so yeah, buy it, hold it for five years. Don't do anything with it. That's my advice. Gabriel, divine. It's the price of Bitcoin. Obviously, we've never discussed this before. This is my first time talking about the price of Bitcoin. And you know, this is amazing. That thing's slapping you, Ben. I mean, that was hilarious. What, that's, that's incredible that you just set that up automatically slapping in the face when somebody bets. That's, that's genius. And I love the, the price ticker they're, uh, surging up today a little bit after yesterday's correction of three and a half percent. Uh, yeah. And to answer why this article exists, um, yes, it's meaningless, but online magazines are content mills. They make their money by getting clicks and having eyeballs on the ads. I should know. So, uh, yeah, I'm sticking by my, uh, my prediction from the last show that we did, which is $425,000 per Bitcoin, 2021 peak and a 90% correction or 85% correction after that. And I do agree with, uh, what's this face? Um, the guy in the article, uh, the S2F model guy, uh, that we're looking at a, like, a 100,000 ish. That's my bear market price. Like a, like 90, 80, 110, 120 somewhere around there for like the bear market of 22 to 23. Martin Wismer, your thoughts. It's a typical coin telegraph article. They took a tweet and they just made an entire article around it. Um, I saw a read tweet from plan B where he linked to the podcast, whether it was his analyst explaining that, uh, there's diminishing returns and it takes longer for a boring to, you know, to pen out. And, but he also said that, you know, he basically just had two data points. So if you're like, make a prediction based on two data points, it's like, you know, nonsense in his nonsense out. So I really, I, I really don't know what to think about it. But it plan B have a stock to flow. Then it came stock to flow. Uh, version two. And then it was stock to flow, uh, effects or something like that. Um, and the original stock to flow prediction or, you know, the model, uh, predicted a price of 50 K, uh, per Bitcoin in December 2021. And I wouldn't be surprised if, if that will actually, you know, pen out that way. I always thought the, the, it was a bit bullish, but 50 K at the end of the year. Yeah. Sounds reasonable. I hope it will be higher, of course. And, uh, but, um, as, as Josh said, all these, these analysts, they're all like, you know, it's like going to a fortune teller on a fair. And, uh, world crypto network, the only indicator we trust is this, um, magic eight ball. So, you know, we don't need those analysts. And it's almost time to hear from that incredible ball, the prognosticator of prognosticators, predictor of predictors. But first we have to ask you, Dan Eve, higher or lower higher Gabriel, Devon. We're going higher. We're going to, we're going to break the recent high of 50 and a half or whatever that was. Yeah. And arc ducking the slapping machine. Yeah, higher, higher. The, uh, you can just see the scenario show right now. The price is, is rocketing up. There's lots of people buying and it's moving the price a lot. So, yeah, higher Joshua, she got. Going lower. Way lower. No, I fucking higher. Lower. Maybe it's not going to stay in still. That's for sure. Martin Wishmare. Uh, we'll go sideways for a while. And we're trading within this like narrow, narrow bent, we'll probably go sideways for a while. Sideways. And now we'll ask the ball, the predictor of predictors. This is the only thing you need to trust. So the only truth, will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Most likely, most likely, which again, I mean, I need mad bitcoins on another tour because when you're being tall, that's when Bitcoin really, really makes moves. That's what's wrong. No, man. How long, how long has the eight ball been around? It's been six years, hasn't it? Well, yeah, yeah, well, ever since we lost all the other chart predictors, we replaced them. We got this one. Never talked back. Doesn't say anything political at all. Like, I have no idea if this eight balls of terrorists supports terrorists. Anything like that. That's like it's completely. All terrorists use eight balls, man. I know it's completely like, they'd have to get a different, they'd have to get a different. Yeah, it's pretty epic having this. It's different explosive device. If you just have an eight ball and places somewhere and put some sort of explosive device, which is tricky when someone shakes it. Oh, God. And then, and never whoever walks in, that really isn't terrible. That's the most terrible thing of it. And we're moving on. Oh, actually, when you did, we needed to a thumbs up round right there. Everyone was there. I'm 24 people watching right now on YouTube. If you're on Twitter, you could give us a re-tweet. We still have one guy who watches us on Twitch. He's like all by himself and all of Twitch. Yeah. Watching us a shout out to that guy. Yeah, Twitch is a thumbs up. Hey, by the way, Twitch, check out what Ben's doing here. Can you quickly explain what you're doing there, Ben, so that, you know, we go through the show understanding what's going on? I will gladly. So I got the price checker here and then I got a QR code there. That's a gap, not gambling. You send me some Satoshi's and I might give you some Satoshi's back, maybe more. And the chance and the winning is, I think, a 60% and it's like a 1.5 multipliers. It's a bit like Satoshi's dice. And that's kind of done in while it was pretty cool. And this is just a tip QR code. If you pay a tip, then you'll trigger like an animation on the screen. Oh, this one also, if you make a bet, I think the middle of the bet is 300 sats. Then yeah, you'll trigger the the slapping machine as well to slap me in the face. So you can win Satoshi's slap me in the face. What's not. Hey, so like I just want to point out for the people a little bit of history here is that when when Eric Voorhe's released Satoshi dice, the big thing in the Bitcoin space was all about spam. This was the invention of the spam transaction, wherever I'm with, say, hey, this is a big debate. Is there such a thing as spam transactions? And because after people were like, no, there's no such thing as spam transactions. If you pay for a transaction, then that's a legitimate transaction. But of course, as the blocks got fuller and fuller, Satoshi dice became less and less useful on Bitcoin core, on chain. No, it's a B-cash thing, isn't it? Yeah, no, it's flipped over to Bitcoin cash. Hey, like this is this is the true beauty of what Ben's built here is that you have a chance of winning a certain percentage. I mean, what's even cool, and I didn't even mention so that all of this is done in the Alan Bitt software. And then if you run the latest version of Alan Bitt software, you can make these Satoshi dice games yourself. So if you're running a bar in the your your, your, you could have one of these QR codes on the wall and why people are taking a piss. They can do a little bit gambling see if they can stack some sets. Yeah, and one one thing Ben, is there because one of the big inventions of Satoshi dice was provably fair, where you know, you could prove that the thing was fair after the fact. Is that something that you're working on? You just you just have to gamble loads and then figure out whether I'm being provably whether I'm being fair or not. You do the odds. Yeah, that we could build all that in later on. I said, this is like an MVP, you know, experimental job, you think. Very cool. Very cool. Cheers, Josh. Thanks for the shot. Yep. And we may be having additional technical difficulties today. I'm not sure where these are coming from. We're using our standard setup like usual, but it looks like restream it has dropped our YouTube connection. So we'll just download this video and upload it later. So if you're watching us on YouTube later, hi. Yes, the thumbs up. But we're just going to move on to issue two. It's just way too hot in here and the suit is too hot. Issue two Bitcoin hash rate rebounds after China's mining operations were shut down. Everyone was afraid. Henny Penny, the sky is falling. China is banning all of Bitcoin mining. What ever will happen? It turns out that the mining machines moved overseas where their owners shock, plug them back in and their mining Bitcoin again. Yes, the Bitcoin hash rate has rebounded to its original numbers. It's almost as if nothing happened after China banned Bitcoin. Martian wish mayor China banned Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is still being mined. How is this possible? I think it's fantastic to see how resilient network is to like rogue state attacks because it will not be shut down by anyone. This is a large country like country like China, where they live in the majority of all hash power was concentrated. It just took one or two months and they're back again. So it will not stop and the only way to stop Bitcoin if all countries in the world would decide at the same time that they agree on that Bitcoin has to be stopped. And this is looking to be like a very unlikely and longer it takes the more unlikely it will be. So it's good to see we didn't need the extra hash power though. I think Bitcoin was strong enough, but if there's machines out there, it's better to use them because if all those machines would have been bought by a single actor, then they would have been able to attack the Bitcoin network at the latest stage. If they're back online now, that's fantastic. It just shows how strong the network is prepared to have most of the other. Joshua, Shagala. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, the Bitcoin network's far too over, I mean, it's not too over a secure, but it's really like it can afford to lose half even. It just doesn't care. It'll just read just the difficulty and get on with life. All these people that picked on it for China, banning the mining, they didn't understand the whole concept. The whole thing is game theoretically already thought out. So none of this matters. It just comes back up. Of course, if you have a piece of hardware that goes and finds rare numbers, you're not going to just stick it on the shelf. You're going to sell it to someone that can plug it in. And I don't even agree, Martin, with you, that even if every country shut it down, because people would just run one miner that couldn't tell the difference between that miner and, you know, I mean, sure, maybe large scale mining could be stopped, but one person could run one machine and that's already enough. The difficulty would just swap down. It would make it more attackable by a state that could turn on large scale mining to destroy the network. But even then, I feel that the people running nodes would switch to a different consensus hash and just get on with life and just remove all of those asics out of the picture. So it's so resilient, it's unbelievable. I love it. I've loved it all these years. I love it every minute. Every minute. Joshua, I wasn't implying that that would be something that could happen. I mean, one thing that is certain is that the world as a whole has never agreed on a single thing. The first thing we all agreed on was that Bitcoin actually has value. Yeah. Then having to agree on that, we're going to shut it down all over certain, all of it all together. Yeah, never ever going to happen. Yeah. You're right also that if anywhere I have a miner here, it's old, it's dusty, but if all the miners would stop, I would fire it up again. And that would be the lone miner that would do all the Bitcoin transactions. So yeah. Start. Then, Ark, your thoughts on China and Bitcoin mining? Yeah, it's great. It's kind of certain that the president, again, if it happens, a country has, because it's near on close to 50% of the mining was in China or the harsh rate, it was like 47% or something. And it just shows that if that happens, and then the worry was that they could just switch mining on and off and they could control the mining, but clearly it just all fires up again in some other country. Yeah, it's incredibly resilient. And the other miners are going to be sat around long, but you'll be located and then powered up. And even with the Chinese miners, when the Chinese mining down, the harsh rate down, Bitcoin and Tashre were still so incredibly pie and Bitcoin were so incredibly secure. I think it dropped to like the same level as I had at the beginning of 2019 or something. So it was only dropped to a few years before harsh rate wise. But yeah, it's great to see Bitcoin working exactly as it's supposed to work and being resilient as exactly as resilient as it's supposed to be. And they could have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you kids and your Bitcoin. And I can see the fly spot are just like almost moving. It's got this like almost slap. I should say actually, because we're not live, I suppose, don't do this one because it won't do a trigger anything on the screen. Do this one. Do a little bit gambling. And I promise I'll sit in front of my computer. And then when this video is like on YouTube, I'll keep this powered on. So occasionally I just get slapped in the face for no reason. That's awful, man. And we're still kind of live. We're live on, I don't know, Twitter and our one guy on Twitch. So there's like two people watching us. But though I write, which boy, the reason why I did the shout out to Twitch, because this is perfect for Twitch. Try to spread it to your Twitch mates. It's trendy new pips to trip to Twitch. I don't know how Twitch works. It's like discord. It just confuses me to hold. Gabriel, divine, your thoughts on the hash rate recovering after China banning. Can you hear me okay before I continue? Yeah. Great. Can you see me? Yeah. Okay, fantastic. Loud and clean. Just freaking out. Fantastic. Zoom is winging out over here. Yeah, I actually wanted to circle back on Marta. I was just thinking about the lines comments about all the companies, excuse me, all the countries coming together and banning. I agree with Joshua, not only would that not work. Actually, I think that a worldwide ban on Bitcoin would just speed up its development. After an initial, maybe slight set back in sort of institutional involvement, I think that it would completely backfire and make everybody just wake up that much quicker. To governments fraud in central banking. So even a worldwide ban could stop Bitcoin. There's nothing that can stop Bitcoin. Me, other than like, you know, on the media side, slash, you know, supernova. But you know, Gabriel, are you saying that we've invented that Satoshi invented a perpetual motion machine? Is that what you're saying? Definitely not. I'm definitely not saying that. I'm saying a robust technology protocol was created. That's all just anti-fragile and robust, not perpetual motion. We are continuously putting a lot of energy into it as, you know, eco fake warriors like to point out. But good question. The incentive situation, you know, that Joshua brought up, that's a really important thing to consider. You know, I'm sure that Thomas and some of our watchers will remember interview I did five years ago with Vene Gupta. And he threw a tantrum on the show, lost his composure, was yelling me down about China hosting the majority of the Bitcoin hash rate. And what a huge danger that was not only for, not only because they could kick, you know, shut it down at any time and reduce the hash rate, but also because somehow. The miners being in China would be a threat to the Bitcoin protocol. He wasn't, he just yelled at me instead of answering my call of questions about exactly how that could be achieved. And here we see both of those predictions. Turning out to be extremely false as I knew at the time and anybody, anybody thinking could know that at the time. Not only could China not exert any power through, I mean, I'm sure they were, I'm sure the CCP was involved in the bit main 2017 debacle. And I'm hoping that they lost a lot of money by betting on B cash, but the other threat that a sudden decrease in the hash rate due to. The banning of Bitcoin mining in the country could somehow hurt Bitcoin has also been proven false. So it's wonderful to see that once again, as you pointed out, game theory at play Bitcoin was created with these incentives. And I kind of want to point out that not only are there technical internal incentives for the Bitcoin protocol and systemic design itself. In this case, that's an obvious case. But also external incentives is one of the things that keeps us Bitcoiners inspired. The effect of the Bitcoin protocol on everybody's lives on society at large on the economy. These are external higher orders of effect that Bitcoin has on the world. So not only is it well and designed within but also without. I just want to follow up on what Gabriel was saying. And this is a good reason why you can't just fiat and let it be done in advance to the future. So many of those articles where they're like Bitcoin uses too much energy because I multiplied times 20. And now it's more. And what Vene would probably say things like when Bitcoin's big and it's really important and you really need it, China is going to censor your transactions politically. China is going to attack the network because it's in their backyard. China is going to have a big switch and they'll just pull it and turn your Bitcoin off. And now here we are only a few years later and already China's not a problem. The mine America would never do that. Well, the same thing. I mean, it's the same thing. It's going to be distributed. We're going to solve that problem. And I think it's just something we're to come along. I also like that the only thing that Bitcoin has to worry about is the eventual heat death of the universe. When everything cools off, that's when the hash rate will go down. Dan, Eve, your thoughts on the Bitcoin hash rate? Well, I'm sad that we didn't see more of those crazy mining deaths spiral. I haven't heard that enough in 2021. Those articles were, they're all the rage back in the day. And you think that, you know, this is the most significant drop that we've seen. Obviously, that article references a blockchain.com stats, but a bit of a chance reports slightly differently. The reason why I'm continuing to use those guys is because they just he listed BSV. Because it takes up screen time, you know, on the info charts. You don't need Bitcoin SV on there. But some interesting like stats, I was just looking at, you know, just in general. So obviously we're about at the moment. We're about 66% back from the all time highs. A bit in very chance list that that's about 198 exerhashes and it went to a drop down to 68. Back it like 131, which is, you know, which is back pretty much, you know, before it started to boom, because it really did boom, you know, just before the drop. But it just really does show the resilience of Bitcoin. And the fact that, you know, even there weren't really many scary stories of a potential 51% attack. It was like, it was on my mind at the time, but I didn't actually see many stories trying to like, you know, capitalize on that fear mongering, which is quite, which is quite good. I think that maybe the, this is a bit of a point, a turning point for, for certain press that they're realizing that some of these buzzwords aren't working anymore. Like, you know, almost like the Bitcoin's dead. Me, you know, that the number of people saying Bitcoin's going to die, you know, that was that old chart of people saying it's going to die. And you know, that those people are whizing up now because you're just looking stupid, especially after 11 years of the, what the most solid network uptime on earth, like you're looking very stupid if you say it's going to die now. But yeah, I think it just like everyone else, it proves Bitcoin's resilience and it's good that the mining, the mining hardwaves being being relocated, it's being decentralized even, even further. And that's that benefits the ecosystem immensely, you know, builds on that pillar of decentralization, the core value of Bitcoin. And the fact that it's reducing the element of control from one particular or a few particular parties. So I'm, I'm game for it. Yeah. That's, I think it's, I think it's wonderful Bitcoin. You're wonderful. Moving on to the exit question. Bitcoin uses so much energy. It uses less energy than all the play stations and always on devices. It uses less energy than the banking system. It uses less energy than the gold bullion system. Yet some country will soon line up to ban Bitcoin. What country will ban Bitcoin mining next because it takes too much power? Artene Wishman. Oh, I think Iran will ban it again because they recently banned it because of the electricity. Now they allow it, provided you paid a government, your Bitcoin. And they'll ban it again soon because you know, it's the only way to get money out. So, you know, rogue states will be at its, or you know, the three hogger states like, you know, where is it? Krat Igerl from they'll, they'll ban it too because bad, bad, how dare you. No one seems to know anymore. They all say scanty and avia. Josh Shagala, who will ban Bitcoin mining next? I mean, it's sort of not answering this question, but in terms of China banning the mining was part of the whole sort of releasing their in central bank digital currency. I think it's not really got to do with the green thing because they've got plenty of a plenty of surplus power that's just sort of sitting there. But what they don't really realize is that, yeah, you can ban like mining, which is easy to spot like proof of work. But there's, you know, in the entire crypto space of competing currencies and competing technologies, you've got so many that are running, you know, hybrid proof of work, proof of stake, you then you got proof of stake, stuff happening. So there's all sorts of things happening. It's just useless and you can tell this is typical bureaucrat crap. They're like, we must ban this. That'll stop it. Like why? Really? So it's just funny. It's funny that they try and and it's completely idiotic. But, you know, I don't know how many other people need to do the same thing to realize that they're not doing anything, but inconveniencing people. It's probably one of the few industries that are booming right now and they want to ban it. Like, like, you know, sorry, there's people out of a job left, right and center and you want to crush the one of the few industries that are actually working. It's just like people need to get a grip. Let's keep the 12 libertarians who are watching excited and use their favorite phrase. Statists got a state, right? Ben, Eric, your thoughts on who will ban Bitcoin mining next? Yeah, Josh is 100% right. The countries who are developing their own digital, digitally native currencies, they're going to be the ones who are going to experiment with banning Bitcoin. Experiment because they'll just end up using it at some point anyway and allowing it. It's such important technology. But I think this will probably segue into I think it's the next topic. I think really we want to keep our eye on the countries who haven't got central banks. Who aren't developing their own digital native currency, which will be centralized using their central bank. We want to look at those smaller countries. You need something sort of some sort of digital currency, which they could develop themselves. And we'll probably be utilizing all the decentralized technology which we have built into Bitcoin. And the payment rails with something like lightning as well. So yeah, so I think you'll find the country like China who wants to be out of their own digital currency, they will probably try and keep them in uply on monetary control by banning Bitcoin or limiting people's exposure to Bitcoin. But it's futile and not only to be temporary, just like China's ban on mining will only be temporary eventually. And Bitcoin does use a lot of electricity, a lot of energy and it has got a high income footprint, but we all know it's ebbing slowly towards more renewable usage, because that's obviously cheaper. Also, the social scalability, like if I'm just passing a Bitcoin on chain to Thomas, then I can do that. If I want to pay the fees and I want to take up that block space, but it's an incredibly inefficient use of, you know, the truth ledger, the planetary truth ledger, which we have, and we have more efficient ways of using that now and we'll explore more efficient ways of using it. And that's where we end up with all that social scalability, where we can build lots of different services and platforms on top of Bitcoin. And that's when obviously it'll be incredibly efficient, much more efficient than the monetary mechanisms and networks we have now, but then also the other things we should be built on top of Bitcoin for transferring ownership rights, whatever, whatever. So yeah, so it's, yeah, the countries which want to bring out their industry, native currencies, they're going to be the ones who are going to explore planning for a while. Waiting. There it is. Yeah, I saw you been before you're like trying to open your eyes as far as the price that I set a bet to wait you up. Gabriel, divine your thoughts on what country will ban Bitcoin mining next. Australia. Australia, very political pick with all the lockdowns and the COVID happening there right now. Everyone claims it's a prison state. Is this a prison state? No, this is shop. We're all crypto network.com where you can get t-shirts and mugs. I have to go turn the other ones back on, but we've got our new no profit. T-shirts and mugs. You can buy anything you want and we'll make no profit. We've got how Fannie Mugs, how Fannie shirts, we've got it all at shop. Dot world crypto network dot com. What happened to the the transverse down float shirts? I think that the company defaults to setting the things to kind of expire. Unless like the right button and I think they expired. So I have to like re upload it again because that's a cool shirt. I think I have one. I didn't know it is rare and limited edition now, but the Bitcoin not bombs and the treasurer shirts are both like super. They stay good in the law and the worst too. That's how it works with collectibles. You have to buy when the opportunity is prevented, presented moving on to issue three Cuba becomes the latest country to authorize and regulate crypto currencies like Bitcoin. Yes, Cuba's government set on Thursday that it will recognize and regulate cryptocurrencies for payments. A resolution, the official Gazette of the country's central bank will set rules for such currencies and determine how to license providers of related services within Cuba. It comes just as L Salvador is preparing to officially recognize the use as Bitcoin as it seems all of Latin and southern America are getting very excited about Bitcoin. Josh, Shagala, your thoughts on Cuba becoming the latest country to recognize Bitcoin. Yeah, I mean, just like just like we started off Bitcoin. It's funny. Most technologies they start off from the top down. So they get the wealthiest have the Tesla to start with and then they get more and more people buying them. So they have money to build cheaper and cheaper and get bigger machines and single die cast things and now they can pump it out for the masses. But Bitcoin is one of the few technologies that started from the bottom up from the grassroots just with people and freaks buying it and libertarians and not job socialists that want to like, you know, so like it started off down the bottom and then it slowly scaled up to the institutions now that, you know, a piling and then next, obviously, these countries. What's fascinating though, usually these these hype cycles have happened after a boom bust and the next boom happens from the next sort of iteration of Bitcoin. And you pop the top drop down. This is going to be one of those things like Mercury is rising where all of the technology just breaks at the same time. I like the way Josh, Josh is in today can only handle so much of Josh talking for just. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry guys. It's like, say, oh no, more libertarian rants and raves. Hey, no, but basically usually the hype cycles drop before the next asset, next class of individuals or institutions come on board. So, you know, it dropped institutions came up, we have the next bubble. And I thought it would have been like a little while, like in four years time when the next harving that countries, but this El Salvador move really, really basically sped up everything. But I think also COVID, everyone injecting money like crazy and printing it like mad to stimulate the economy's worldwide is also speeding things up and accelerating stuff. So I think I'm very, very bullish that, hey, Cuba will do it. Then the next person, the next country, the next country, the next country, it's just it's a black hole and it's going to suck everything in. Ben, Ark. I think you lost back on this show back in the day, you know, that it was people adopting it and then it was going to be the companies and financial institutions and then eventually countries and speculate on which countries have been adopted and blah blah. So we're starting to see it roll about the technology, rolled out to these different countries, which is great. The US embargo against Cuba has been as a, it's been condemned by the U.N. since I think like the early 90s, 1992. And the embargo restrictions increased during 2021. And I think in the article, it said that the GDP of Cuba was affected by 11% because of this. And a lot of that is that you can't, US companies are prevented and people are prevented from sending money basically to Cuba. So you don't have that remittance, which makes up a huge portion of all the countries around the US. It makes a huge portion of their GDP like in El Salvador, I think it's 70% just incredible. So that's why those embargoes are in fact condemned because they break international law, the US acting like that. So this is a way for us Bitcoin becomes more adopted and people more people are to use Bitcoin and obviously the Cubans who want to send money back home and all these businesses who want to interact with Cuban businesses can do that. And I've under the radar and through this censorship resistant pseudo-normous technology, which we have called Bitcoin. But yeah, these central American countries are trying to wiggle out of the US imperial control in one way or another than Bitcoin is absolutely ideal for it. And as I said before, I think Cuba has a central bank, but it's not without its problems and it's susceptible to corruption. And a lot of these smaller countries, which have central banks, which are more likely to be corrupted or have don't have central banks at all, I could just going to switch to Bitcoin and building that probably build our stable coins or stable soft currencies on top of Bitcoin as well, that's possible. But yeah, it's great to see that's this stage of of Bitcoin's evolution happening. And I think Josh is right that it's the everyone becoming digitally native much quicker than we thought. Because the COVID, which is accelerated all of that. So we're in like Bitcoin 2025 right now, I think not Bitcoin 2021. We've been catapulted a good few years into the future. So yeah, great to see and wish some good luck. Gabriel, divine. I don't think this announcement is all that momentous or significant in itself. This is just a kind of a paperwork thing for us, I can tell. However, your guys are right in calling it out as a possible next step towards something more like El Salvador where they actually adopt Bitcoin as an official currency for the country in some fashion by the authorities there. But as such, it's not that momentous, but I would like to comment on what Ben was just saying about our predictions on this particular channel and in general, my comments about Bitcoin. I am not, I mean, yes, we've been does exactly what we've been saying over the years and our predictions are of course terrific and have basically all come to pass. But I don't agree with you guys that I was looking at mid 20s for government adoption. 21 was really a target year for me because of really in 2016 when the white paper for lightning came out. I thought that it would take a couple of years to create alpha software and then about three to build up enough client side software in order to be able to use lightning and sure enough, that's exactly what happened. Early this year, which is the five year anniversary of the white paper release. You know, we saw the things really began to heat up and where human beings on the ground that don't know anything about things other than just apps on their smartphone don't know anything about technology, their farmers, whoever in third world countries anywhere. They could start using Bitcoin easily and smoothly and that happened and so of course everything now is flooding in because now Bitcoin is becoming a medium of exchange very quickly. And I really saw 2021 as the big year when that would launch up and that things would begin to move a lot faster. So this is actually in line with my expectations. Dan Eve. Well, I think the fact that essential banks giving it giving it the seal of approval, you know, albeit from a court, you know, a much smaller country, you know, lend credence, it gets to Bitcoin being a legitimate, you know, legitimate money source, right. So sorry, so sorry, so much money, a legitimate money, you know, it's a stamp of authority now made, you know, maybe obviously the US doesn't sort of. It get along with Cuba so well still, but there will be people thinking right well, you know, there may be a bit elements of corruption in some of these countries, but you know that there is obviously a benefit to having Bitcoin. And the fact that it can be rolled out in countries that are not so you know not known for being technology technologically advanced right it's scuppers the argument that you know Bitcoin is this complicated thing that people can't use properly, but no, no, now farmers has been rolled out to farmers. You can, you know, just have a phone and an app and then bang they're done they set up and the infrastructure is there so they can switch out into fear if they need it or want to etc. So I think it's yeah it's just another string to the bow of Bitcoin. And it's only going to snowball right there. Once these these countries have got successful implementations of Bitcoin, especially with lightning network and you know taking taking to strain off the main chain, providing you know, like in fast transactions, etc. They're really proving the case again against the arguments like you can't use it to pay for coffee or you know that sort of stuff it takes too long to confirm so all these every one by one all these arguments that they're being broken down the dominoes are just falling. And so I think it's cool it's just turning into a monetary arms race right between between the countries that are sat there and there's a you know everyone's going to be looking over their shoulder you know they're sat at the what is it the the the dad's move what's that what's that place Davos Davos that whatever one of the big things they're all going to be talking about Bitcoin right it's it's it's it's going to be on the the the you know the lips of basically every big leader out there because as much as they're trying to dismiss it. There are going to be people that are probably kind of like sat there going you know trying to shield it right there's going to be someone like a few people in Davos who are like. They come on like to the Boris Johnson or whoever these world leaders and be like you you you serious like come on guys like you know get into the 20th century. I agree with Ben about things being catapulted though right we've gone you know things like you know zoom usage etc went up massively all the working from home you know the fact that companies have a lot of them have you turned and and I companies my friends work for they were like very against working from home and now like wow this this really works for us so that's really very good for us to help with Bitcoin adoption because it's putting us fully into that virtual world the Stimichex. Stimich yeah they helped definitely with Bitcoin you know being bought that's for sure. But yeah I think I think it's great I went to Cuba once beautiful place absolutely amazing I was the most fascinating thing is like all the like this or so many of the cars not all of them like the old school like American cars from like you know the 70s and stuff they're like it's I think even in the picture in the art school is they're like. It's yes just like a really cool. Not 70s 50s 50 sorry 50s. Yeah you're right before the revolution of 59 the gangster sort of ones yeah yeah I think it's a bit definitely a beautiful place and if you get out there let's say pay it visit. Artin wish mayor. And I'm very excited about this new developments even though they seem a little bit no not so significant people use it anyway but fact that government start. endorsing use of Bitcoin not the other cryptocurrencies because if they start making your own shit coins I'm signing off but that they like a dog Bitcoin because it does make sense. Many of those countries have been using the US dollar as a sort of like backup reserve currency or currency and it is for a country it for economy it's really bad if you can't control your own money. So if you're already depending on somebody else's money and you're depending on them doing the right thing meaning like don't print it like crazy. Then you have little to no control over your own economy so if you already have no control over your own economy then why not select Bitcoin because at least we know there's 21 million. Bitcoins there will not be more bit made as as Dan said the infrastructure it's it's it's there it's working it's a piece of cake to implement just maybe make a nice branded wallets for like the official wallets. But there's nothing stopping people from like transferring to their own wallets that's just it makes sense and I think the next country that will adopt Bitcoin will also be countries that are using the US dollar or another foreign currency as their main currency because their own currencies yeah keeps slapping bad. But that they use that they use any country that doesn't have their own currency or their own currency is weak and therefore they rather use another currency is a potential candidate next and I like the little quote in the article that said yes but the government will be monitoring and patrolling it I mean good luck with that but you know they'll figure that one out they'll probably have some infrastructure and stuff but It gives the people a little bit more freedom and I think it's good for the people in Cuba because this way they can at least like save a bit for the future because right now there's no points in saving dollars or the local pay sauce because It's the value ways in like you know it loses its value very fast and and with Bitcoin well up till now everybody wants it for four years or longer is in And big is in the plus so yeah good for Cuba. It is funny martin how governments used to be very powerful and everyone say oh the government's going to turn against that or oh this country doesn't like that but now with Bitcoin you just kind of shrug your shoulders like what can they really do especially a small country but even a big country like China or the US like we were saying earlier unless they all agree at the same time let's stop this thing or if they turn off the internet. This thing just keeps going and going going as we've been talking about for the exit question El Salvador is working on adopting Bitcoin and launching it in the next few weeks will it be a big deal life changing for the people of El Salvador everyone on the street using Bitcoin. Complete transformation a cybernetic future or will it be hardly any deal that all life goes on for El Salvador let's go to Joshua Shagalla will El Salvador be a big deal. I really hope it will but they need to implement lightning network without that it's it's it doesn't work so implement lightning have lightning working and and hopefully accelerate that side of it. Yeah otherwise it's not going to work that's good they say they have lots of Bitcoin ATMs let's go to martin do you think they have Bitcoin ATMs or lightning ATMs. I saw a couple of pictures of a locally produced well you know I'm biased but I call them like monstrosities general bites I know what clients of us also putting machines there so we're we're gradually seeing the ATM side of things you know Gather steam we've been supporting lightning since I don't know for years now I stopped counting how many years so if they want to enable it for perfect there is a custodial wallets that's being developed in cooperation I think with Athena. Or one of the other ATM operators it's going to be like very centralized thing I mean it's running on Amazon web services and all but it it's not the only way to use it people can use their own wallet people are free to select their own wallet. I do hope it will you know have a gradual start because from what I've heard there's people are a bit afraid of it because it's like so new and they know nothing about it. Banks don't know how to deal with it they ask questions like should we start mining I mean really no you don't have to start mining but the fact that they even asked those questions shows the limited knowledge available right now so they should like you know use national TV to to have introductions and maybe get. And Andreas on the novel is there with this like with a reality show where they do transactions and stuff and gradually educate the public and therefore I hope it will be a slow start but the risk of a slow start might also backfire and that media will say see it's been bullshit all along it's not working is not working as but you know I think a slow start just gradually you know gradually then suddenly. I think that's the best approach for for El Salvador. I think Martins actually absolutely right here and he's predicting the future a little bit I think if this fails and it might kind of and by fail I mean have very little change in the people's lives if it has very little change in their lives it'll be because of a lack of education. The campaign needed like he's saying a television campaign actors stars over and over again over and over again just cementing how to use this how many time did they show you how to swipe the credit card they used to have the big machine now they have the chip and pin again they take so many examples so many shows just casually using it casually just put it in the people's minds I don't think they have that I don't think they have the preparation I think it's being dropped on them and it's interesting to think about the importance we put on what. The importance we put on wallets and what kind of wallets they use with the actual users they don't care at all I remember back in the day we're all like what wallet do you use we ask everybody they're like local bitcoins I just keep my money and where it came from you know they never looked out that there was air bits and so many other offerings and ways to hold their own keys and such they're just like local bitcoins coin base you know that's almost maybe maybe re stream as an option to stream life to El Salvador TV very soon. And we can like educate the people fight a world crypto network it is the strangest thing where the the pipes are there like local cable all these things they probably have it we could record stuff for them they could dump it out there and maybe translate it of course but I just I just don't think it's being done I think it's an even larger thing to do then accepting Bitcoin is educating the people about Bitcoin yet if you don't do that I don't think it's going to work let's go to Dan Eve your thoughts on Elsa. El Salvador big deal or little deal. I think it's a big deal right like it's it's the first kind of it's the first of its kind it's it's a bit of a bit of a test pilot test I suppose the role of Bitcoin on a mass scale by a country you're choosing to do it not like by the people pushing it forward so I think it I think it is big deal but I'm just going back to that the cubit article I thought was quite funny. The one of the comments in this is the resolution says the central bank and authorize the use of cryptocurrencies for reasons of socio economic interest but with the state ensuring that their operations are controlled and then it says it also explicitly noted that operations could not involve legal activities I just like the way they had to state that specifically like you could you could you could you could you could have Bitcoin but none of the illegal stuff please. But I'm going back again sorry because I made it made a note about the fact that the impact to say our Salvador which was you know dependent on the on the dollar and when you have a bottomless fear money pit that's sort of printing that just happens I didn't think about the the secondary impact on on countries like our Salvador that don't benefit from the dollar going directly back into their infrastructure. They just like hodlers of the dollar that don't get the benefit of all the money being pumped back into America by printing so it's it's you know it's disastrous really having a reliance on another currency that's just printed out of thin air and so yeah I'm I'm all for cube in our Salvador making a making a run for it basically and and detaching themselves and becoming financial Lee self sovereign tea tea. currency control is very important to these countries and without a local currency they are kind of without a sword in a video game then arc your thoughts on El Salvador. Yeah that's 100% correct Thomas I'm not sure that they have the same soft currency functions with big points big when it's of course a hard currency remittance remittance remittance so much of this country's GDP is remittance and if you have three to seven percent of your you know the remittance. going to western union and other such companies then Bitcoin is very attractive just tool for getting money into the country without having to pay those fees the feedback on the ground for people using Bitcoin is it's incredible and the paper rolls are fantastic you know there's that video the guy paying for his electricity bill just by scanning a QR code you know they they they they now have a better financial infrastructure than I have when I want to pay for some bill you know I have phone up and something so yeah they could just kind of QR code and paying because you have that remittance there's always a lot of money. You know granny wants to pay electricity push kind of for it and then you know as soon as you ask and send some money and then instantly she's got it in a wallet and then boom she can pay for the the bill. Fantastic but there are limitations so you know people in our Salvador particularly well off and they can't afford to speculate they'll have them on subsistence living in if you're if you were you know 100 200 dollars a month and then. That's halved because Elon Musk puts some tweet out that's not particularly useful and the US dollar is in fact better form of currency for medium of exchange if you're facing that with that kind of scenario and that sucks so i've been speaking to people i've spoken to block stream i've spoken to a couple of a couple of people at the blur. uh what's it called the blockchain. Um conference we had in in me orca and there's lots of people who are interested in the concept of you know a sovereign soft currency stable coin bill on Bitcoin so. Say if you think of liquid network you could have a liquid network fork but instead of the federation so obviously liquid network is federated instead of it being federated by financial institutions it's federated by. And boroughs in your country and each of them has a key and they they all sign transactions and they they if they need to they can. They can create more tokens for physical stimulus and for digging themselves out of you know some sort of horrible financial disaster which are the the useful functions of a soft currency but also often obviously they get corrupted. And so I do believe that a lot of these countries like al-Salvador for example they're going to fall in love with the payment rails they're going to absolutely hate the instability and they're going to explore how to make something just stable. If you look in ethereum land they have the die that has to really interesting ways of keeping its peg using arbitrage opportunities between you know buying and selling the the the token back to the die vault. You could do a similar thing on liquid you could have a token where you have a vault and in that vault people send Bitcoin and in exchange for that they get you know al-Salvador dollars and then if it you know goes up or down you can sell it your al-Salvador dollars back to the vault and you can make a profit on the Bitcoin or. And that will help keep the peg so I think all of that stuff is going to get explored and I think we should be encouraging countries and projects to be exploring these things on Bitcoin. Because if they don't get Bitcoin they're going to do on something else and it's going to be a house built on sand. But yeah have only the great thing about a liquid network solution as well obviously is you have the ability to have lightning network on top of that. It's interoperable with lightning network and then you could do some crazy atomic swap stuff. So for the user they would just be switching between al-Salvador dollars or Bitcoin on their lightning wallet and it would be very very seamless and all the technology would work you know there. I know from our own experience with Alan Bitts we have a couple of companies which are rolling out literally just that we have an extension Alan Bitts to make a point of sale. And they're rolling out that point of sale to restaurants, to hairdresses, to whatever shops, corner shops. And then they people there you know the vendors can then accept Bitcoin over lightning network and then after a couple of days the company just gives them cash for the amount of Bitcoin which they've they've taken and they just charge a small percentage for that. offering that service. So yes they think they've been able to pay through QR codes all this other stuff is cool but at the end of the day they want something which is stable which is why I think you'll end up with a lot of hacks converting Bitcoin into USD. So these companies and businesses and people can accept Bitcoins they have to but then if they do accept Bitcoin that they can then have it as something which is more stable and the USD you know. Despite the printing is stable much more stable than Bitcoin is so it's exciting to see these companies building on top of our software which we're using. But I do think we need to really talk seriously about how do we give them a better medium of exchange experience where there is stability because there is technology out there to do this in a way which is. Federated or decentralized and is corruption resistant and can be rolled out by a country which doesn't have a central bank so we need to explore it very very seriously. I think Ben's right after the project fails because of a lack of education though blame volatility and print their own coin Gabriel divine your thoughts on El Salvador. My prediction is kind of like Ben's but just I think it's helpful to separate some of the use cases of Bitcoin in this scenario in order to make a judgment as the effect on the. Small countries economy you've got transactions savings and remittance these are three very different use cases for Bitcoin now in the future there won't be much. We'll be able to consider them together more but in in this day and age with as you pointed out so little education. The transactional effective Bitcoin is going to be negligible you know payment rails for Fiat are just fine and there's digital payments and all sorts of stuff you know out there. Credit cards and everything like that and Bitcoin might help to as a competition to lower the rates but as far as just regular transactions within the country that's not going to have much effect savings. I think that this move will certainly turn some light bulbs on especially for the young folks in El Salvador so I think you might see several tens of thousands of people or maybe even up to a million. Really doing the research and figuring out that oh my god this is my chance to save and so I think the long term effect on El Salvador's economy is going to be stunning a lot of people are going to critique the economy for all they can make a difference three years from now but seven eight nine eleven twelve years from now when we see entrepreneurs and everybody popping up in El Salvador and the GDP exploding. Everyone's going to point to 2021 as the time when that started and then on the remittance level I agree completely with Ben that this is a huge just sudden jump in the you know GDP of the country it's just going to be this massive chunk that's just going to start coming in because they'll be able to just use Bitcoin a lot more seamlessly to move money into El Salvador from outside. I agree with pretty much everything apart from you know 70% of El Salvador's are they are on banks they don't have digital payments now they do have digital payments and there's like it's a great video it's on a device documentary on the subject and it's a guy paying electricity bill and he says that previously we'd have to sit on a bus for an hour and then you'd have to wait in a queue for an hour and you have to get back on the bus for an hour. So now you go by social scalability, say yourself three hours by having just access to digital payments. So I yeah I stand corrected. Yeah, that's anything. Cool. All right, very good moving on to issue four issue four man, so's parents of British boys Benedict and all of them over one million dollar Bitcoin heist. The parents aren't denying the crime but apparently they're not willing to give up the money either back in 2018 a Colorado man had roughly one million dollars worth of Bitcoin plundered from his digital wallet after three years of working with investigators he's traced the crime back to two and named Benedict and Oliver and now their parents are being taken to court. They've filed suit against the miners they've tracked them down and they've asked the parents to give the money back the parents have completely denied that saying they won't give the money back they gave them a chance before sending these this court as case to court. They said I'm writing you I'm saying I'm giving you a chance we have the evidence let's go to Ben arc your thoughts on the man suing the British boys who still stole one million dollars. I think it's not a good thing to get the hands on it. Just you know, spirited it away, trade and shit coins, because I think it's partly how they found out about it was the fact it was like sent to the next or something about some some exchange. So they probably did exchange stuff with it the kids did. Yeah it's really interesting and article I imagine more people got stung so I'm looking not looking forward to but I'm going to be interested to see how many more people come forward and say yes I also had you know. Bitcoin's taken from me when I was using electro matter my downloaded it from this dodgy source which I shouldn't have done. But yeah it's hopefully something which will become resolved and it's that sort of hack where you're not attacking some big corporate entity which has tons of money and can afford to lose a little bit. You're vulnerable people you don't really know how to use a computer you're going to download the wrong software from the wrong place and they're going to get stung and they're going to lose all their money and sucks and sad you know education is the way forward on that and how to make that better but it's just like similar sorts of scams it's the vulnerable people should get. Which we should we should we should we should we should attack them that's kind of sucks it's sad. Hopefully they'll have some resolve a record I can't imagine these kids are going to have the money you know they probably spent it by now whatever case spend them on you. Gabriel divine. Yeah it's what I find interesting on this story of Benedict and Oliver is they were clever enough to insert or to get an address swapping malware. On to this download site in other words on this this schmuck excuse me this some schlamasal who. Who put his you know you downloaded electro atom from some sketchy source. Didn't check he's sending huge amounts of Bitcoin really you know decent amount back in the day thousands of dollars worth. The source address everyone should constantly everyone in every Bitcoin user in the world should always be cognizant of the possibility of this exact hack and always double check the addresses whenever sending. Bitcoin always look at the address check it double check it triple check it I know it's a little bit time consuming but especially if you're sending a good amount of your. You know that's not worth you want to check every single character to make sure it wasn't changed on the you know in your copy and pasting. So that that's you know that's really too bad that he's so reckless with you know with the addresses it's not difficult for any human being to look at characters and compare them it might take several minutes if you're really slow or drunk or tired but take the minutes. You just need to check all of it right you just check the last like five characters even because there's so many check sums in place of the thing that's the minimum to do of course if you're sending your life savings maybe you look through but the first three in the last three is even enough. Yeah yeah if you're sending a few you know you know a few bucks or the worth or whatever that's cool. You know always at least check something for the other side of the equation that's hilarious to me is that he was able to track these kids down they were they were smart enough to put the malware in that changes your address which is relatively sophisticated piece of malware. But they weren't smart enough to cash out their bitcoins in an anonymous way where they wouldn't be caught on the other end that's shocking to me that these that these kids lacked that well I guess that should I guess they're young they didn't they had a only code knowledge and no no knowledge of the world and you know on the other side of the equation the fee outside or the exchange side so that's pretty terrible this is an example of really bad op sec on all sides of the world. And it's just kind of like you know play stupid games type of situation but you know whatever that's just how things go got to be careful in this world and I think Bitcoin once again we're speaking about incentives earlier. The incentive for proper cybersecurity is ratcheting up very quickly around the world not just to protect your information from crying eyes and from the public you know you're also going to need to understand cyber security a lot better to protect your life saving. I really thought the most interesting thing about the articles the way that it covered the parents and it said the guy sent a letter to the parents and he said oh you know we can we can settle this privately you know i'm just looking for my money back. I don't have to ruin your kids lives and the way the article presented the parents aren't denying the crime but apparently they're not willing to give up the money either it's almost as if the parents have no shame and at several points some of these articles they say oh the person was you know five countries are way or a thousand miles away like they're not a real person like the guy has you know bills yes stuff to pay you doesn't have his Bitcoin anymore somehow they managed to track these kids which is amazing. And then the parents had this chance where they're like oh yeah your kids are at school anyway like they're probably going to make lots of money maybe even if it's gone they could work out a payment plan or some kind of a resolution but it just seems that shame doesn't work anymore and that the fact that these kids would be shame Benedict and Oliver who would hire them that the parents would be shame that even the country could be shame they're like it's a million dollars like we need that or maybe it's already spent I don't know Josh wish a gole your thoughts on. The million dollar theft. Yeah I mean you know the history of hacking has always been in the someone someone bet something Ben is Ben is falling asleep here someone slap that man basically the history of hacking has always been with these kids you know it's the archetype hacker is the kids you know kids are breaking into something and you know back in the day somehow it was like Kevin Mittnik you know he was I don't know like I think if I remember correctly at my a Monro high school or something when he first started being a hacker and then obviously you see it Tim Berners Lee you know started hacking his computers back in in the mid 70s or something like that before he invented the internet you know you got George George Hots he was an amazing hacker he basically jail broke the iPhone meaning like the web not Tim Berners Lee the web not the other web right okay yeah right oh geez the the semantics here are important but you know George Hots was also this this amazing hacker like took something and and and jail broke it and actually if it wasn't for George Hots jail breaking the iPhone and putting a what an app store before Apple had an app store it just had a bunch of apps it basically gave Apple the idea of hey an app store that's a good idea it was this young hacker kid who basically credit is up store and then all these other people would start creating these apps to put into the studio I think it was called which then sparked this light bulb in Steve Jobs the hey we could we can have an app store on this thing and maybe maybe he thought of it before I'm not sure but it definitely accelerated it but you know it's sad to see these young kids go and take money from from people that are you know that that actually a real people like Ben said you know these are and if you read the letter that he wrote it was really nice it was like man I don't you know this has been a really hard time for me I lost this money and it's been I've really suffered and I'm writing this letter to you to say hey you know if I don't want to ruin you you guys are kids and I don't want to ruin the rest of your lives by taking you through court and having a bad name but you know can we sort something out and and for these parents to just then go no and and sort of you know come on guys I mean it's it's pretty it's pretty shitty and you know let's get back to ethical hacking hey hey sadly he's left it too long as well he left it like three years so now there's this side sort of time that you're allowed to get someone but I don't know if it'll stand up in court that's the article says maybe it won't start to go limitations yeah those limitations so yeah let's say it'll be definitely something interesting to follow but the kids mandate come on the kids where they wouldn't have spent it all they would have bought some some wacky crap coins they probably made a lot of money they probably got more than enough like if they really did it properly so there's a good chance that they have way more than they need just throw throw dog a bone hey I agree Josh is letting me know if I can do it. I was very kind but people often see kindness as weakness and maybe they just decided to go after him. Are teen your thoughts? Well I have to disagree with Josh here you know you can't compare two script kitties that got some malware from somewhere the monitor a clipboard and then they it touched it to a Bitcoin wallet and then redistributed it. That's not rocket science. That's not like jail breaking an iPhone. It's just pure, you know, petty, petty, yeah, you know, it's just just it's just a script kitty. It's not even a hacker that has got any good reputation. And what they did was illegal. They knew that at the time when they didn't, whether they were kids or not. So I think they do have to be prosecuted. And if I would be the judge, I would say, oh, no, no, no, no, it might be, you might be out of time or it might have expired. But in this case, it took a while before we found you out. So definitely set an example of this. Make sure that the kids don't ever ever do this again by just giving them appropriate punishment and make sure that they pay it back. Gabriel had a good point there. It is bad upsec from both sides. You know, if it's not your private keys, then it's not your coins. And if you transfer it to another address, then you originally intended it to, you know, if you have a million dollars, you should keep it on a hardware wallet, at least, you know, there's the absolute minimum. You just get a treasure or another flavor of the month hardware wallet, you know, get a good one. And then it will show you the address where you're sending to. And it will on the device itself. And that device is not hacked. You know, it might say something different on your computer screen if it's hacked, but it will show you on your device, which address you're sending it to. And then you confirm it on the device. It's the reason why all those hardware wallets have a display. It's the display that you can trust. You can't trust what's on your computer screen. And, you know, it's the guy, the person who lost his coins could have prevented a lot of problems by just getting a hardware wallet. So for reviewers at home, don't be spooked about this. Just get a hardware wallet. They're like 50 to 80 dollars or something. If you go, you can go very fancy and buy one for 150 dollars. But it's not really necessary. You know, you just get a basic hardware wallet. It's called book reputation. I wonder, I'm named Amir unless they sponsor the World Crypt on that work. But that's like, it's the basic. But, you know, regarding what should happen to the kids, I think they belong in jail. It's just, it's just crime. They have crime. They had proceeds of the crime. Now they should go to court and make sure that their proceeds are taken away. And if they don't have the money, yeah, lots of luck. That's not, that's not the problem of here. You know, if they don't have the money, they'll have to pay for the rest of their lives and to pay it back. So yeah, I totally think that they belong in jail. And they're not like fantastic hackers or anything. They're just nasty scriptkitties that probably found the these keywords stealing Trojan on the on the web. Then got an executable. Then just tied them together, changed the icon back. So it looks like something ledgits. And then that's it. It's not, it's not really difficult. It's just a little bit of Lebowski there after he pulls up in the Corvette and he's like, oh man, they already spent all the money. This blends well into the exit question. You be the judged forced prediction. What will be the outcome of this case? Will they go to jail? Ben Arck. Yes, they, they, I think they probably will, like Martin said, but I also want one little word of advice as well as like the guy clearly sent a huge chunk of change in one transaction. And he would have, if he did, you know, after putting that software up for the first time, if he just done like a smaller test transaction, then he would have picked up on that clipboard hack, which was in the software. So yeah, I mean, definitely don't send all your coins in one huge massive transaction. That's, that's the first arrow you made. Yeah, you're hardwell as well. But yeah, that, no, that's job. That's job. Gabriel, divine. You be the judge. They didn't mention the age of these young males from Great Britain. It sounds like college age. They said they're studying computer science. Okay, so if they were, but if they were miners at the time of the crime, it's conceivable that they may not actually do any hard time. So it depends on their age. I think maybe if, if they're not twins, then Oliver, the older one, which I'm totally guessing, Oliver may end up in the slammer and Benedict may run free. Who knows? Judging by the large amount of money stolen, and if it was a million dollars in the time, they might be tried as adults, although I don't know the British court system. Joshua Shagalla, will they go to jail? I think there's probably better ways to deal with these sort of people in terms of, you know, like re-education camps. No, I'm just, no, like, you know, getting them to do good things. You know, they're obviously clever guys. Kids, kids, when kids, you know, there's a reason why kids don't go to prison is because they're just stupid. They might be smart in terms of they can code in there, but they're just, kids are just, they do dumb shit, especially teenagers. Teenagers do, they're super dumb shit. So, you know, I just, I hope that this guy gets his money back, and I hope these kids will learn a really strong lesson, but I definitely don't want them to sit in a cage with Pubba. Martin, who is mayor, do you see them doing public service work, you know, cracking passwords, fixing, Judge Martin says, go directly to jail, do not pass starts, you will lose the Lambo, and you will have to pay a one million dollars. No Lambo for you. No Lambo. Moving on to issue five. The fear, wait a minute, before we go, the fear, the fear equivalence thing is interesting because it's $100,000 at the time, and then I think is $700,000 now, but I say claiming a million dollars in the article. So, do they have to pay back $700,000 or 100,000? No, they have to pay back to Bitcoin. They're going to have to pay back to Bitcoin. Then the price will go up. You're so cruel, Judge Martin. Very hardcore, very hardcore. He solves the problems. All right. Moving on to issue five, issue five, the high priest of cryptopia regrets nothing. Ian Freeman could have been a Bitcoin billionaire. Instead, he could go to prison for the rest of his life. Ian Freeman is one of the hosts of free talk live, the legendary libertarian radio call and show founded more than two decades ago. The show, one of the key parts of the free state project working out of New Hampshire, is a major tenant in libertarians. It was where Roger Veer told people of Bitcoin, they were early Bitcoin adopters. They've been active in the town of Key New Hampshire. Now a complicated case involving a, look like a business, they set up being accused of money laundering, not paying taxes, so on and so forth. Mr Freeman now has an ankle monitor and it doesn't look good for his future. Let's see, whoever we started with, let's go all the way down to Dan Eve, Dan, your thoughts on Ian Freeman free talk live. There are early Bitcoiners, libertarians and now they are basing off against the government. Well, I must say it was a very, very interesting article. I'm not going to lie, I kind of flusied on the headline and was like, high priest of Cryptopia. And I was like, oh, this will be easy to talk about because, well, I can just moan about having my funds go down with Cryptopia when that went down. But no, it was a 700 page article that strained my eyes and took millimetres of skin off of my finger having to scroll through the entire thing. But no, it was a very good, really interesting, actually. It's like a real, you know, told us a proper story about the history of Freeman and how he set up the church. And it seems like another one of these, you know, these silk road type things where the FBI came in and they set up some transactions and he got caught in the end on one of the not preventing someone from depositing money. So it does seem like a bit of a set up, but at the same time, well, you know, the fact that he was sort of filling to the banks, etc. Although technically, lock fit not filling because I like the idea that he was saying about his coins, right? They're collectible coins and Bitcoin is like a collectible coin. There's only 21 million of them, right? So of course, you're going to collect them though. It's a collectible coin. So technically, he's not actually wrong there. But it seems like he's quite quite a free spirit. Didn't really kind of, you know, capitalise and spend out on lambo and stuff like that, living a very kind of humble life. It's and so to put someone like that in jail over kind of like, you know, minor kind of AML issues and KYC issues that, you know, when when banks can quite literally like, London billions and billions and billions, like openly and plainly and just receive slaps on the wrists or fine and no one goes to jail in those. I think it's an awful, awful situation. But yeah, very interesting story about the about in Freeman in general and also how everything into Twins, right? So they talk about how how obviously Roger Ver was there and also I think they mentioned about Vitalik as well. He also popped up at the same place. So it's quite interesting to, you know, to think about the kind of early days and all these paths crossing that are now being written about now, very fascinating. So yeah, I think I think it sounds like he'll probably be get caught. I did think when I saw the ankle as in, you know, he'll go down and maybe not for long. There's obviously an incentive for their co-founder of the church who's also a convicted murderer apparently. But it was apparently he was convicted murderer. So obviously that adds to the kind of the story, you know, and probably doesn't help he in his case. But I did think actually that his bracelet was, I thought it was like the ankle thing. I was like, oh, maybe it's like a where will it? And then I suddenly thought, no, you idiot, it's a it's a monitoring device by big government. So yeah, good luck in free spirit, free man, hopefully free forever. But, you know, yeah, sadly, it sounds like he's going to be his cop in one for the team. For at first glance, it actually looks like he's wearing an an iPhone or an Apple watch on his ankle. And you're like, oh, that's like, that's the new Apple watch. Like, oh, you get it on your performance. Oh, nice. Let's go to Joshua Shagalli, your thoughts on the libertarians and free talk life. Yeah, it's definitely a full on article, but it's kind of a weirdly written article. It sort of jumps about and and just says sort of just throws things in left right and center. And you don't really know like at the end of the day, if if you're going to be openly hostile, not, you know, this is the this is the thing about Bitcoin is that you can be pretty like hostile just by using it. It's kind of a hostile act. But you're an air all the time and say, I can't not just living the living it a very openly and brazenly. You know, there's a reason the guards at the at the toll gate are going to chase you down if you just brazenly duck under their toll gate. You know, so it's one of those things. It's it's it's there's even like mentions of, you know, after hurricane, the devastated Puerto Rico in 2017, digital speculators moved to the island of Valtteri, build it today, crypto Rico. Seems like a glorified tax shelter revolving around the entourage of a former mighty duck actor. And they're obviously they're talking about rock pierced there, but instead of saying is as I, you know, he's he's achieved a lot that that guy, you know, throughout his life. And you know, they just boil it down to a mighty duck actor. It does read a lot like a hit piece, generally on on on, you know, some sort of a person who maybe, you know, is a no-coiner and just angry or maybe he got hacked early and lost all this Bitcoin. It just wants to bring someone down. I don't know. It's just it's a it's a it's a funny thing. I do wish which I love some of the videos he would do where he'd go behind a parking inspector's and put some coins in the machine just before the inspector got there. And he just followed, they did this whole thing where they just followed parking inspectors around all day just putting coins and machines just in front of them so they could never make any money and they got really annoyed. It was kind of funny, but yeah, it's, you know, there's some weird sketchy stuff in here that, you know, you never really know, you know, they throw around like that he was, you know, blaming the saying the FBI was the biggest dealer of child pornography and stuff like that, which obviously gets, you know, people's people's sort of anger up because, you know, you want to protect children, of course, it's the so these sorts of things just thrown into articles. I think anything to do with with that sort of topic, I think really needs to have proper legal and consequences because it's such a sick thing that needs to be stamped out, but it's yeah, I don't know, I'm sort of sort of rambling here, but what I'm saying, what I get to the point is it's see it reads like a hit piece, smells a little bit like a hit piece, and really like Dan said, you know, this is a free spirit, he's a guy, oh wow, you know, he's, you know, he's done well by getting into Bitcoin early and seeing that Bitcoin is what it is early, but yeah, it's sort of like what's his name that started Bid instant, Charlie Shrem, also the same sort of thing, like, you know, they just sort of take these people down and then because maybe a transaction of a transaction ended up on the Silk Road and double hopstrip or hops away or even directly and because he, you know, you're excited about a technology and you can't keep track of something, but obviously that's not seen like that by the state, but yeah, I wish you're more the best. It just seems like they broke so many rules that they were just out there, you know, there's that old thing, you know, don't shit where you eat or live or, you know, if you have a fake ID, use it to buy booze, not to drive the car. There's this obvious attention on them, and it just seems so simple to take donations, be a non-profit or take donations, be a business, pay your people to have these extra steps to have all these Bitcoin ATMs or Bitcoin vending machines, if they're going to call them that, to do all this, the church and to do all these levels and all these complications, it just seems like an obvious way to get the FBI on your tail. And I wonder too about a little bit maybe a failure of vision and a failure of future here where libertarians don't want to follow the rules so badly that they blow their opportunity to become billionaires where they could influence the rules where they could have a real free state project where they could have government representatives where they could have television advertisements and education about their ideas and whatever could be done with them could be moved forward with the power of a billion dollars if they were willing to follow a few rules while this incredible currency takes off. Josh, what do you think about their failure to see this? And that I know they would have had to follow the rules for like 10 years there and maybe be quiet about maybe pay the taxes, not have this complicated scheme, whatever it is, at the end they could have been billionaires, they could have promoted whatever they wanted. The ideological, they have to have that purity, right? They can't. Yeah, I think there are a lot of people like that. It's just the fact that he's a radio host. What is he not going to talk about it on the radio? Is he not going to be a rebel on the radio? On a radio show called Free Talk Live? Obviously he's going to be out and outspoken and and these shock jocks, that's their whole stick, right? It's to try to shock people because that gets listeners riled up and yeah, why are we pay for all these wars and these governments? And you know, so it's pretty hard for someone like that to go about and you know, go under the radar and then come out and ha ha, I'm going to buy up, you know, if Super Bowl ads and talk about like whatever, I'm going to lobby for the the cessation of main. The alternative does seem to be his co-host, Mark Edge, who seems to be, I don't know about Dan's thing, but seems to be in no trouble at all and is now buying a private island or something. It seems like there was somebody that was more straight edge and you know, knows the grindstone. Let's go to Ben Archer, thoughts on Free Talk Live and all the libertarian drama that they've presented. Well, the ideologies what drove him to go into Bitcoin so early on and like go full into Bitcoin, isn't it? So I think you know, I can forgive him for not changing the way he is. So I mean, the squares didn't get into Bitcoin early on, you know, a few did and there were a few libertarians such as, you know, Roger Verne, who were able to sort of strike a balance and then try and influence things in Bitcoin, but then you know, we saw that won't quite badly. So maybe it's better that he even didn't have that lobbying power and as much power as he had, as much power as someone like Roger Verne has, you know, obviously with Bitcoin.com. But yeah, I mean, his ideology is the thing which put him in the position in which he's in. So it makes sense that he continues to be who he is. And I think I can give the man a lot of respect for that. Is there some naivety for sort of mouling off and saying all these libertarian ideals and then having to face the music when the man comes and knocks the door. And I don't think there is. I think he's prepared for it, which is what the article kind of misses. Like his, the article he's criticising the article to be very laid back and not really taking the court case thing seriously. But of course he is, you know, he understands the implications of the gel time he may do. He's potentially facing a life sentence and they do, you know, state does like to make an example of people. And as we saw with McAfee, there's some real world consequences when these libertarians do get caught and they are backed into a corner. So no, I don't think he's naive. And I don't think that he should have done anything differently. And I think he should have just did what he did. And yeah, maybe he could have tried to work within the bounds of the law a little bit more. But you know, civil disobedience is a very powerful tool. And we need these dissidents to challenge laws and challenge society and challenge the power of state. And particularly once we're so vocal and they have such reach when it comes to like their viewership and if they're running a radio show or whatever like this guy was. I mean, I don't know so much about the guy himself, but on a superficial level, you know, just reading the article and researching the guy a little bit. I think he's prepared to face the music and he stuck to his guns and he's the example of civil disobedience. And if you have all those all that support from his viewers and from his viewership. So yeah, I think it's it's fine that the article was I agree completely with Josh. It was kind of they wrote up like a freak show article like one of the quotes at the beginning was when they walked into his house, I was like, this doesn't smell like somewhere Billy and now would live because he kind of just tank of like mold and square and it's like a sticky house. But you know, this is quite often the point with a lot of these Bitcoin is that they go into Bitcoin for ideological reasons and they don't really care about the material wealth stuff. They just want to continue to try and push the what they believe the the Bitter and Ideals they believe which is wrapped up in the protocol. So yeah, good luck to him. Hope he doesn't do part gel time. Probably will because I'll make an example of him. Gabriel, divine. You know, it's always fascinating to explore the stories of these early Bitcoiners. It's very it puts all these you know, 10-year-old occurrences and events and decisions and vicissitudes into a really interesting light because they are extremely magnified because all the activities that those individuals were doing back then, you know, everything's worth a thousand times more now. So oh, it's 50,000 times more. So I think the same thing's going to happen kind of you know, with things in recent years that we don't really think about that much but in 10, 12, 20 years, everything that we're doing now is going to be magnified 500 or a thousand times. So it's going to be pretty interesting to see but I just want to say that this photo, he's got dirty feet up on his desk. It's so disgusting. Like I totally I don't approve. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, it's course. They're dirty. They're not just like it's not just the filter on the photo and the photoshop thing. They're actually dirty. So I'm not surprised that his house smells. You know, I can't blame a guy with to have him, you know, wires and stuff on his desk running you know a radio show but like 30 feet didn't know. And I agree with Ben's perspective on this guy. He's an ideal ideal log. He's an idealist. He's you know, a libertarian. What do you call it? An ardent, you know, sort of extreme guy. So to him to like to like bend, bend the rules a little bit or be like, you know, like just to justify the ends, justify the means with with some ends down the line with it's just not acceptable then. He's a hard line guy. So I can see kind of why he did that. And you know, 10 years ago and you know, that's just that's just what the natural thing is, you know, there and he might not even the thing is like to to have the perspective that you pointed out there, Thomas, like you would have to assume that all the systems are going to exist that long and has a lot of Bitcoin hard core believers don't, you know, think that the Bitcoin is the pin that's going to pop the balloon of false authority and that all they need to do is hold on long enough and stick to the guns and the system that would correct down on them will collapse. So that's kind of I think that's another part of the thinking behind that decision making path. And I kind of just wanted to like point out that there's like I think it was Josh you mentioned, Charlie Shrem, there's a lot of these not a lot. There's a handful of these human beings from back then most of whom we've never heard of and never will. There are people out there human beings, they're possibly like still working their day jobs, you know, whatever coding for 135 grand a year or whatever they're, you know, they're getting to be a little bit more senior in their careers even if they got into Bitcoin as you know a 16 year old in 2011. Some of these people out there have thousands upon thousands of Bitcoin. Several of them will be billionaires. You know, there's like a handful of these Bitcoin billionaires already today. There's the famous Romanian fellow by the name of Popescu. And what was his first name again? Something with an M. Whatever it is. This guy, Misha, Misha Popescu. Very interesting character, very controversial. You know, he's got his blog still online, Trialema. And this guy, Misha, either faked his death or actually drowned in Costa Rica a few months ago. I was really curious to see what he would do because I had a feeling he might be the first public Bitcoin trillionaire in a few years because he had over 250,000 Bitcoin. And the type of effect that people, libertarians or sort of right libertarian guys like Popescu will have on the world is very unpredictable because these people did not, could not exist for the last 100 years and even possibly a bit longer, even with the sort of robber barren type of era or whatever you want to call it, the 19th century industrialists, they had to play by the rules still. And you know, the government had still had quite a bit of power. But I think that the idea of these guys like buying tracts of land and creating kingdoms and stuff like that, that's coming. I thought Popescu might be the first one. Obviously he's left the public eye, whether he's moved on to another realm of existence or just in hiding remains to be seen. But there's people out there, there's human beings I'm assuming mostly males, but possibly both genders, whatever that are going to have a totally unpredictable effect on the world's economy that's going to create change so much faster than most people recognize. The technological innovations coming down the line, Bitcoin itself just as an effect on society as a whole and these individuals with unprecedented power to bring their political vision into the world is just, it's going to be a stunning couple of decades ahead as these, you know, libertarians never really had a way to bootstrap like they do now. And this is a huge movement of people that are all getting turned on to this sort of the orange-pilled populace. You know, there's millions of us now and they're going to spend their money in a really different way from Wall Street schmucks. Tell you what. Well, going back to what Gabriel said about the idea that you could just surge forward and eventually the system would break and it wouldn't matter that you'd broken the system's rules. I want to tell my story about Rome and I probably told this story before but I like this story. Hannibal Barka was marauding through, you know, the continent and he had these big war elephants and everyone was afraid of him and the towns would do this little thing when Hannibal would roll in the towns would take down their Roman flags and they'd put up the Hannibal Barka flag and Carthage and they'd be like, yay Carthage and then Hannibal would move on to the next town and the towns people would get their Roman flags back out and they'd put them back up because they knew that Hannibal was just passing through and that Rome was forever and I would I would worry about that strategy to try to break through. Well, you do have big momentum and people like Albright or Freeman have a lot of ideological zeal and presumed righteousness on their side and often even the righteous die in jail cells. So it's a very dangerous game that they're playing and just to remember Carthage after Hannibal went home after conquering Rome a couple of times. Rome came back, Rome made it out to Carthage, they filled in the port, they salted the earth, nothing ever grew there again, don't mess with Rome, it's just an important lesson. Martin Wishmayer, your thoughts on Ian Freeman and free talk live and the incredibly long article that some of you actually tried to read, I was skimming yeah well you did give us some homework this time Thomas. I found it fascinating article, it it did read a bit like Josh said as a hit piece because the it was an opinionated writer but it did have some really nice things in it like for example that Kevin and Reason, one of the core developers at the time he he went out for lunch and then paid for it in Bitcoin and that Kevin was handing out like like free Bitcoin to everybody who asked for it in a force it back then and this is how I got my first Bitcoin it was my I believe five bitcoins I got and then I tried to like change my IP address once and so I used the VPN and I got another five bitcoins so I got 10 bitcoins for Kevin I never I did think thank him for that at the Bitcoin 2013 conference because that's where I met him at the time and thank you thank you for the Bitcoin because it got me started with Bitcoin it got me interest in Bitcoin and I started mining back then so that was nice to see that Kevin also went to this free state project and I did read about this this project I never listened to the podcast and I wasn't like you know really into this this whole libertarian stuff but it the article really like highlights what happens if you stick your head out and you troll the government they'll will come after you and you know you can like hide try and hide but the government very powerful they will eventually come after you and it's it's it's a bit sad you know the guy like all these opportunities and he just like stick to his ideals and I agree agree with Gabriel that like the dirty feet on the table that was like an absolute no no I was like that wasn't what I thought that first it was photoshopped and then I enlarged the picture I thought no no no no no it's really really walking around barefoot in his in his house yeah it was a long read I do recommend people to read it but to do like keep in mind that the the opinion of the writer is very much being pushed through but yeah it's it is a bit like Bitcoin history and you know the fact that Roger Fair kept this station afloat by donating three and a half thousand every month to keep it running and then decided at one point that no I should pay you in Bitcoin because it's a libertarian show after all this is like you know one thing I do agree with that you know we call Roger Fair Bitcoin Jesus he's now more like Bitcoin cash Jesus but the real Bitcoin Jesus should be this Freeman guy because you know he's the one that started a church because that would probably be text advantage or something and then he like you know he had his gospel on his radio show talking about Bitcoin and the state but yeah unfortunately stick your head out troll the government and they will come after you this is something you know I think you know most people learn that when they're in their early 20s so yeah sad but yeah I don't know it don't think he should be in jail for that long or lifetime that's just ridiculous but yeah it's it's what happens stage set in the example it's unfortunate but true depends it depends on what they facilitate though doesn't it like you know we'll sort of money transfers and transactions like knowing we facilitate it between what kind of parties because that's you know how they got shrapnel if we if we if there's some entrapment it would be illegal in Europe it in the US that's a common way to like to arrest people is that somebody like undercover goes to him and says oh I've got pcil growth coins I'm going to change them for cash you know I sold drugs online and now can I change your machine to change them for cash and then if if he would have said yes no problem I don't care it's Bitcoin you know free world free market then he's then you know then they got that on tape or something then they probably got him you know so yeah I don't know the exact details but it's sad I think he shouldn't be in jail you know if I would be the judge I would say you're free to go but watch your face please judge Martin a little easier there on Ian and of course uh Martin reminds us of that classic Japanese saying don't be the nail that sticks out that's the one that gets the hammer and is is is that the Japanese saying it has a lot to do I think with their culture like it's very much like stay in line kind of culture uh where American culture might be either nail in the Dutch language it is if you stick your head out above the mowing fields then the lawn mower will get you and you're gone you know so it's the same exact thing trying to pass down that knowledge and uh doing it through metaphor and and I do just want to say just a little bit here that these aren't just people on a screen for us like I don't know that I've met Ian Freeman but we've been in the same room and I went to pork fest and our friend Derek J is mentioned in the article and I hope he's not involved in the court case it wasn't entirely clear uh I hope he's doing good and that all of these libertarian people are uh to me they just seem like normal people I don't think there was malice here uh they're using this money laundering laws to track them down remember these money laundering laws were invented to crack drug cartels and a drug cartel has all kinds of negative externalities where you know somebody didn't pay and they get beat up or somebody over doses somebody steals the stuff or there's crime there's always these bad things for society involved but here I just I don't understand where the crime is and where the damages are certainly perhaps these laws were broken uh but were there real problems and I think this is pretty obviously what the libertarians are going to say as well and I just I mean I wish all these people the best we don't have any ability to change anything or affect uh this case and I hope Derek J is okay um but yeah I'm retalk live and uh all that they've done for Bitcoin and and for their own cause whether you agree with it or not they express their own opinions they did it often they let anybody call them peacefully disagreed peacefully exactly that they didn't harm anyone but now as Martin predicted it's time for you to be the judge again what will happen to Ian Freeman Dan uh Dan what's going to happen how will it turn out will he go to jail? I think so I think uh it seems like the classic you know the that he's been set up for it he's obviously done some funny stuff in the past um bit of a kind of oh it's well kind of victimless crime-sprey style as I think they stated in the article like but um I think it's caught up with him by the sounds of it and uh yeah unfortunately he'll be made an example of um sadly hopefully not though Gabriel divine I don't know I didn't get a clear idea of what even anything was about in this article but nice sentences nice prose so who knows I have no idea and they went there they interviewed him they hung out in his musty house Joshua Sigala you know I I'm hoping that he'll have enough money to get some really strong lawyers and that the rest of the community will help out if his funds have been frozen or the at least the the off ramps have been frozen for him to be able to pay the lost but even now nowadays lawyers will even accept Bitcoin so I'm I think there's a whole lot of people that he would have behind him that are very astute with the law and that he'll be free you know that feed up on the desk thing was more like a yeah go suck on this sort of picture then Ark you know Jesus Jesus Jesus so you know what would Jesus do not wish use probably um but they've got dealt and in the case was going for five years uh we don't know what that dirt is I think mine's probably right it's probably uh entrapment and quite often the US is always funny you have like they'll try and do one of these entrapment things and they'll actually figure out the the person known trapping is it also an agent as well and everybody in an organization is an agent and they're trying to entrap each other so it's a it's a big problem obviously Ross wouldn't have fought Ross Obert wouldn't have fallen into the mess he fell into had it not been for someone trying to entrap him um so uh yeah no I think he will go to jail to be honest these facilitators of freedom technologies like Bitcoin like the Charlie Shrems um the you know they're a central point of failure there's something which they can attack you know they it's good to struggle to find that the people in freedom are maybe dealing with but they can they know who in freedom and is and um uh the father sounds with awesome sort of service he was offering where who's people could send Bitcoin and then he would give them cash um I think they see his five million dollars worth of coins casheces coins and so I pronounced that wrong uh uh I imagine being from being a along you know standing Bitcoiner he has other sources of Bitcoin stash here there and everywhere so if I actually don't think he'll be struggling to try and meet his defense but I do think that you know they would have built up a big case over five years and then they'll be going for the juggila trying to make an example of the guy so I do think he'll do time yeah what would Jesus have worn according to archaeologists they found small tuffs of cotton on Roman sandals meaning that Jesus would have worn socks with sandals the correct way that they are worn martin oh maybe he's German maybe he's German uh no one no one that speaks German could be bad martin whisper your thoughts on what's going to happen to Ian Freeman judge martin thrown a down if it would be up to me I would say not guilty out of jail free collect your uh how how's your coins or the collectible coins you're free to go but I'm afraid they will uh set an example and just go after him because they probably can and and this is this is this is really sad because uh this is how governments basically ruin people their lives you know it's uh it's it's a said it's like a bunch of victimless crimes there's like nobody got got got hurt or anything uh it's he was just going after like his ideology of like you know libertarian states and you know moving to in middle of nowhere and try to get people to move their to to swing the votes and you know it was all the typical mindset of the early bitcoiners you know we wanted like the internet gave everybody a voice how nowadays we can have a podcast and we can you can tell the world about what we think I'm back in the days before the world worldwide web this was impossible if you didn't own tv network or a newspaper your voice was not heard so the internet gave everybody a voice and made everybody in power a little bit less powerful and bitcoin is doing the same for money and they were the first ones to see this and this is why bitcoin stuck with all the libertarians at the times now then you know then it became first of all a proof of concept then came the libertarians then we saw sort of like e-cash like application primarily for dark markets and then came the little mom and pup investors and and then came big money but you know we shouldn't you know without those libertarians bitcoin would have never succeeded so I think he doesn't belong in jail you know just giving back his radio station maybe saying no no no no more trolling on the airwaves and let him go but I'm afraid to set up it just reminds me of that sort of really angry cop going off to cheat and chong yeah I'm gonna get those pots smokers just like what this calm down calm down I used to watch those the mate it's amazing to see chong doing interviews now and he's he's pushing his own line of marijuana and it's completely you know above board it's completely legal he went to jail because his son started a company that made bongs in his name pieces of glass glass vases were sold in his name and the government busted down his doors with a SWAT team and put him in jail and all that and that's why we have the movie the Wolf of Wall Street chong's roommate was Jordan Belfort chong inspired his roommate to write his story down became a book became a movie and the Wolf of Wall Street was from the truck right wow what a what a creepy connection you mean so many different stuff no mate yeah not not just a roommate yeah we're already down I get where he's growing down but yeah I agree with rattle I think I think Ian's going down I guess they call themselves the crypto six I hope Derek J's not in there but yeah the government's gonna make an example of them this is gonna be Ross Olbrek to the libertarians will be chanting where's the crime where's the crime but again money laundering's the law it's on the books they're gonna say it's a crime they didn't change any of the laws in the free state they never reached that critical mass I remember when the project was first discussed I thought they made a huge mistake going into new Hampshire instead of Montana or a less populist state I would have gone for the the smallest not Rhode Island but any other state that small doesn't have a large population has a lot of land that would have been a better bet they went with the historic bet that the people of new Hampshire where live free or die but that was 200 years ago right the people who are there now are like leave us alone you know we want our parking meters to work or whatever they didn't they didn't adopt to this movement there was always an oil and water I talked to Derek J and others and seen documentaries and films and even Derek J is victimless crime spree that I think you guys can get on amazon.com on DVD I have it and yeah the same thing the town didn't really adopt well to the libertarian outsider so you're sad you would have thought like Texas or something as well even if you it was a straight no the Texas has a lot of people the idea was to have to go to a state that with very few people then move in our mass like all the libertarians then then then game the election system and then change the law which I think you know it's yeah you'd also you'd also need libertarians to run for office there there are no libertarian office holders in the United States Congress there's 525 or 35 of them or something not a single libertarian so I don't know it kind of it violates a lot of their individuality to run for such a collective I'm not sure they'd be into it even if it was in the free state right if it was the freest of all states I'm still not sure wow it's kind of like infiltrating the the the biker biker's and turning them into united way or something you know it's not going to happen only only Nixon can go to China but I think we're running out of time for today so I just want to remind everyone to check out the WCN Clips channel WCN Clips just google that it's on youtube you can subscribe we've got 64 subscribers we've got all kinds of great clips from this show that you can check out and share check out WCN Clips on youtube are we're going to go to predictions or a story of the week our teen wish mayor are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week go ahead I got a story last time I couldn't tell the story but this time I can tell it we like upgraded our small b ATM 2 model it's our best selling model since 2013 and it's not a prettiest model and that's why we thought you know we needed to upgrade it so we increased the screen size so our clients the ATM operators can have their logo they're better and bigger and it's easier to operate so we'll be shipping that from very soon if you order now then you know it will ship with the largest screen and we managed to do that without actually increasing the price because that was like you know we wanted to keep the price the same so this is a really I'm really excited about that I was biting my tongue last time because I couldn't tell it I couldn't tell it because screens weren't in yet but now the screens are in so we're shipping that with the large screen and we created a VR interface for those with an Oculus headset or VR glasses so that they can like use the everytrade.io portfolio management app in VR so if you're don't shooting zombies in VR and you want to check whether your portfolio is still okay then you don't have to take off the VR headset and you can just fuel your portfolio in VR so I thought that was like revolutionary new 3d it is all very green because when you fuel your portfolio there's like trees everywhere it's like you're in a virtual forest so you know it's the greenest greenest portfolio tracker you can just possibly get and it's free okay that was my shameless look for this week thanks to almost ATMs and Excel spreadsheets and unlikely mix for VR and everyone can check that out at generalbites generalbites.com I assume or something like that Dan Eve prediction or a story of the week. I predict that I've got a nice positive prediction actually that would be called if it came true which is I predict and I hope it comes true that some some big twitcher uses Ben software because it really is incredible and and I just think that it's yes just hilarious to watch it and if you see if someone's giggle is any time that they're speaking in an inappropriate place it's probably because you can't see but someone sent Ben a slap or something in the background so you've got to forgive us if we laugh inappropriately at certain times but it really is incredible software and yeah I think it should be I want to see people not using it in anger. Okay let's skip ahead let's go to Ben arc next so we can all slap them in the face go ahead Ben prediction. I hope it works because I think it was bugging out at one point in the show. Prediction is I really predictions really no I don't think I have prediction I've really got a story either but the yeah the software is great that little bit is coming along really nicely there's a developer called Fitties doing a lot of good work on the twitch side he's got like a twitch streaming extension but as I said I don't understand how twitch there is a withdraw faucet here so I know this is kind of coming out like this isn't live but if you're quick you can scan this and you'll get 2000 sats and you can hit that three times and that's some of the money we made on the the slappy machine is oh well that's going to be in the way isn't it let me put that over there so you can still slap me well actually let's put it here shall we oh no we can't put it there because that's my face put it down there there we go over the stuff of the price because it's going down the slappy machine works anyone try slapping me yeah but yeah it didn't work but then I won the lottery so it didn't matter anyway oh no the why came out of my slappy machine that's why I tried using it then and it I get an error that says I get an error that the LN something like you know it's not supported is it what what what what are you using it's breeze I'm using a shitty wallet it's called breeze and it pumps out with a camera too and it's like a pay 300 sets which is the minimum to gamble I'm not the gambler what all this one then I I got some mind says processing payment just please wait while payment is being processed got this all coming through oh hey damn it seems to work now I think I think maybe maybe it's because it was the wife I also think that it's very temperamental I have even won I can't believe it can you just like put this this thing on I'll just keep playing until I lose it all you know copy winnings you there L you must claim the sets now actually I take back no no the crappy wallet because it it it didn't work at first but now it it does seem to work and I okay redeem and it even it even gives me back my price this is so cool I can't understand the not everybody oh failed to receive funds that was the one yeah wait wait a second it made and now it says payment received yeah it's a bit confusing but it's also bleeding edge technology exactly people have to get into this and I my favorites extension on Ellen Bitts because now we're all about the snappy machine and the gambling and the tips and stuff but I do I like the the faucet is really cool but my favorites really the Spotify jukebox I mean you know like a jukebox you know it's everybody can start a jukebox that works on you know on Bitcoin or Lightning even better so it's just it's just there's so much in there and it hasn't got the exposure like I use Umbrell because I don't want to mess with stuff so if you if you were set home on to use it just use Umbrell install Umbrell go to the app store click on Ellen Bitts create the wallet and then go dive into the extensions there's a whole bunch of them is like this is not enough QR codes to fit on the screen you know there's like there's so many extensions so yes good idea then there's actually big story of the week is all these new additions to the Ellen Bitts extension let me tell you it is Beater as well so you know don't get your hopes to see which you can book out occasionally yeah well I got my four and 50 sets that say it's it's beta but it's really working now no here we are there is there is a story of the week then Fusion 44 is really good developer he's been switching our Python server software from Quart which is what we use it's quite a niche piece of software to fast API which is a much more used piece of software and we think that's going to iron out a whole bunch of bugs and then hopefully we'll be able to get out of beta but yeah so so yeah thanks Fusion 44 for we hard work and that link all right very cool Joshua Seagala prediction or a story of the week go ahead story of the week oh we we we did a lot of stuff with the with the standard.io it's really it's moving along with the the the community's going like crazy it's very and very excited about it so I'm really happy about that the second part of the story is that I'll be on the black sheep summit which is starting in about what's already started which will have David Wolfe this isn't live but it has a whole bunch of really cool people that are talking about gold silver it's a whole bunch of you know more sort of hippie type libertarian prep of types and and yeah they're all about like learning how to grow your own food how to get off grid how to have gold and silver and Bitcoin and crypto how to do permaculture and you know all this sort of stuff how to how to make batteries and solar power and hook that up and how to you know trade in a self-sustaining way all sorts of really cool talks happening over there at the blacksheep summit.com check it out you standard if you're if you're watching this that'll give you 50% off the ticket right now we can pay with standard the standard token now. No no it's just it's just a discount code. Oh okay okay I think I thought it was like life. I wish that would have been really cool. Yeah excited about it. Yeah. All right and and a theorem seems to be going through us fork because no one's upgrading half the. Yeah and then didn't the developers tell everyone just to not do transactions for a bit just. I don't know like I'm just sort of reading up on it now it happens there was there was some some sort of upgrade and this is why actually I'd really liked with what found interesting with what Amir Taki was doing back in the day with having an alternative implementation of Bitcoin I always thought I was interesting too so you could have the choice but that never happened never really took off. It's it's nice for the Ethereum people to take a day off you just you can't say. Yeah. Yeah. One of the one of the core devs one of the core does literally say could everyone just stop doing transactions got side take a walk we all need to just cool down. That's fun way. It was a bit seriously. Yeah seriously. Yeah seriously. Yeah I could get seriously. And finally Gabriel divine welcome back to the show. Good to see you. Yeah. You have a prediction or a story of the week go ahead Gabriel. Yeah a story of the week. So there is a country in the Middle East which was invaded successfully excuse me successively by not successfully by the Soviet Union for 18 years and then there were several just a handful of years of Taliban rule when they were beginning to eradicate the highly prized opium crops at the center of the world's heroin trade and then what's the price? CIA and the US came in in 2003 and also had an invasion which lasted 18 horrific expensive and very deadly years and it's really interesting to see how that event has really served to wake up a lot of people to the Biden pretendancy as they call it. This guy who appears by all intents and purposes to be seen I'll supposedly in the Oval Office some people are not convinced about that and in any case it's really interesting to see how even mainstream media sources are beginning to wake up to the fact that this is not a competent person and it's really interesting to see that sea change beginning I really think the Afghanistan situation as sad as it is and as deadly and horror of horrific as it is for in so many ways at least there's a silver lining that it could begin to shift the American political landscape and by extension possibly the world so something to keep your eye on. There does seem to be an interesting disconnect where the last two presidents have wanted to immediately withdraw from Afghanistan where the media seems to want to stay so it has been interesting to watch that because it was of course Trump's plan to withdraw which Biden then doubled down on and went ahead with but I mean it's about how you withdraw as well you can't just up and leave like I don't know what Trump's plan was I don't know what Biden's plan was but you know you do it you take the 20 billion dollars worth of plans you take you slowly move the cars you get some of the weapon from what I've seen Trump's plan was actually struck down by Biden when he came in so while he may have given lip service to this withdrawal he definitely did not follow Trump's plan for withdrawal. It does seem like both however paid lip service to this date of September 11th that we must be out by then like Josh said it wasn't so much about whether we had our gear or our people or our helpers or anybody out it was this arbitrary date they had several negotiations with the Taliban the Taliban didn't keep up their side of the negotiations I'm not sure why you would continue with the agreement but it does look like they continued with the agreement and regardless of whether we're ready we're out so but more political talk later we'll let that pass everyone check out w world crypto network dot com DJ booth has been working on the website and Marwe has been working on tagging things if you go down here on the left side you can see we talk about Bitcoin price quite a lot Thomas Hunt tone veys and Joshua Shagalla leading the human race with Theo Goodman and Jimmy Song right behind you can also check out topics that we've talked about on the show there's so many topics Brian Armstrong Deutsche Bank Goldman back secret island Rick Falkvenge really by Marwe going here and trying to tag the topics and for a lot of these like Ron Paul I really got one there but for a lot of these you will see multiple videos about the topic here on the world of crypto networks so check that out at worldcryptonenetwork.com thanks to DJ booth and to Marwe for doing all the tagging and we've also got hosts and guests you can see all these shows here with with Jimmy Song just scrolling back here and there's probably more and stuff like that but very cool check that out worldcryptonenetwork.com and I wanted to close with a little tweet that I put out today how can you tell if you have an early NFT and here we have a picture of rare Pepe and a Curio card and if you're if you're early NFT has a picture of mad bitcoins it's an early NFT if it has no pictures of mad bitcoins it might not be an early NFT as you can see here they found today that Curio Kirk Cobain is wearing a mad bitcoins Pepe T-shirt so pretty cool stuff to see rare Pepe and Curio cards united 2018 that one came out there and then rare Pepe was before that so very cool stuff happening in NFTs but we're not really going to talk about it here I just wanted to show that cool picture but thanks again to everybody for joining us so sorry that Restream it didn't work today we're not going out live on YouTube so you're going to have to push the thumbs up button later you're not going to get that instant feedback the chat room's not going to be there you're going to have to chat later in the comments pretend that it's the chat room but yeah after this ends we're going to upload the video so to people who watch tomorrow or over the weekend they won't even notice they'll be like everything was normal but to everyone else sorry we had the technical difficulties we don't know what happened but hopefully it'll be better next week so thanks so much for joining us until next time bye bye bye