The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest satosis, the best bitcoins, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Redolfo and Drainius from La BicConf. How are you doing, Tom? Thank you for having me here. I really am out of focus. And change the thing here. Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Senate votes to move ahead on trillion dollar by partisan infrastructure deal. The deal has only passed the Senate with a chance for amendments to continue through the legislative process. It remains to be seen if any amendments will be agreed to since they will be subjected to a 60 vote threshold. The bill text has not been formally unveiled and amendments are expected not to be considered until Senate majority leather, Senate majority leader Chuck Schumer offers up the finalized deal as a substitute amendment, which could happen at some point later Friday afternoon. But what does this have to do with Bitcoin? According to Jake Sherwinski, lawyer, but not yours on Twitter, GC at compound finance strategic advisor to variant fund, DeFi chair at block chain association, a maximalist whose tweets are not legal or financial advice has informed us of a major part of the US infrastructure deal. A new provision has been added that expands the US tax codes definition of broker to capture nearly everyone in crypto, including non custodial actors like miners, forcing them to KYC, all users. This is not a drill. As Schewinski continues, the bill expands upon the definition of a broker to include any person who for consideration is responsible for and regularly provides any service effectuating transfers of digital assets. Earlier drafts said, even if non custodial and explicitly included decks and P2P markets, this definition is so broad, it could literally apply to every economic actor in the US crypto industry. That includes proof of work miners and proof of stake validators, since providing a service to effectuate transfers of digital assets for consideration seems to fit both. It might include a huge range of DeFi market participants to like decks, LPs, liquidators, pro-called governors, etc. Depending on what for consideration means, it might not also extend to non economic actors like node operators or wallet developers. The scope here could be massive. Now why is this happening? It says that additionally, the tax code requires brokers to comply with IRS reporting requirements filling out form 1099 forms. So this is a major form problem. You'd have to KYC everyone were skipping ahead. This sounds insane, but it's white happening. What does this crypto law have to do with infrastructure skipping down to Jake's point number nine? The bill has to include pay for provisions to raise revenue for the new spending so that it's revenue neutral as a whole. The broker definition is one of the pay for provisions in the senate draft of the bill. There are three main ways to raise revenue in a bill like this. Increase current taxes, add new taxes, or improve tax compliance. This allegedly falls in the third category, making people pay taxes they already owe. Congress thinks crypto is full of tax evaders. parentheses, Jake says, it isn't. The infrastructure bill is estimated to cost $1 trillion. The bill has scored the new broker definition at an added $28 billion in tax revenue. Jake says he has no clue how they got this number or how it's even possible to calculate. Regardless, this is no way to handle major new regulations. This is a deeply misguided provision that if adopted, we'll do far more harm than good to US interests. Adolfo, your thoughts on the new US senate infrastructure bill and their potential, changing of the broker definition to include minors, node operators, decentralized exchange operators and much, much more, maybe even proof of stake, proof of work, everything has the government finally come for crypto. It looks like we are on the then they fight and then we win. It's like I think these things should be expected from anyone in the crypto space to government be more aggressive, not aggressive against Bitcoin, aggressive against some kind of use than to Bitcoin. Because at the beginning I thought they will be against Bitcoin as a currency and a deflationary and against the US dollar. It seems that it's not like that but they are trying to put the tail to each user of the space. I think it's very aggressive. I think it might raise big concerns among the players in US. Also me as a Latin American person, US is just one of the 197 countries in the world. So these kind of bills are being also promoted actively in Europe. Now in Europe they are also discussing this about putting names to each player in the middle. I am highly concerned about how you solve these expectations on the decentralized protocols. I am so glad Bitcoin is nameless. In the sense of you can't push anyone to do anything. Sometimes centralized protocols, there is someone who leads the development or the existance of it. Beyond being open source, if you push someone then the protocol will also change. Bitcoin is a bit in the safe place there. I don't think the BIB will be added into the Bitcoin protocol to make it more transparent and stuff like that. Even think it will go more towards privacy than transparency. But on the second layer or on the business layer, this is obviously an imperative element for them to fulfill. So I guess that some companies will be, some know Sarah will be affected. I am concerned about the nodes. Yes. Though who has a node, who is the owner of the node? It's like sometimes you do loss that are inapplicable. You can't execute them. It's just the law. But then make them be real and be harsh to the ones who go against it. At least I said you should have, but who knows who is behind. So I don't know. I think it's something to keep watching from a near. To keep having a near eye on it. Also this is what some guy is saying. No, we need to. I always learn not to take once approach as the real approach. And I think it needs to be more, more well understand by other players also. I think you make an excellent point that this is definitely going to direct the programmers towards privacy as one of their goals for Bitcoin when they see something like this happen and they see the potential problems this could cause. Everyone talked before when the Trump administration was on their way out about Steve Mnuchin and how he was going to do a similar thing. The main thing that keeps coming back in these bills is they want to create a surveillance environment for crypto where they can start gathering data. So then they can start busting people. So they keep coming back to that over and over again, which like Redolfo said is going to drive the programmers to change the Bitcoin to change the crypto and to remove this surveillance ability in the future. Of course, in the present, this is bad for Bitcoin. This could cause us miners to move out of the United States. We just got them out of Canada. Now we might get them out of the United States. This might be the way they ultimately kill Bitcoin driving it to the corners to the edges. But it might not actually kill the network. The network might actually survive, which would be even bigger a front to the people that are trying to do this to Bitcoin. This could also be bad as technology companies and smart people, universities, other people start moving out of the US if they're just going to arbitrarily decide stuff like this to get money. Instead of raising taxes, they just want to raise money, like the article said with that third rail. You don't raise taxes. You don't have new taxes. You just adjust the dials until you raise more funds. So I'm against that. Redolfo exit question. Is this worse for altcoins, especially altcoins whose funders and founders have addresses can easily be looked up? Is this worse for decentralized exchanges, the new defy people? Or is this worse for Bitcoin? Who takes it the worst if this passes? I think it's the ecosystem in general. I think obviously they have other reasons also to go against defy. I think it's almost to all the ecosystem. It's like a, I know the word is Spanish, similar naso, but it's like a shake, yes, in general. But you know, I have an additional concern. We all, I guess, we all love sailor. Yes, we are all like he speaks very well. He's very well intended. He's great, yes. But, and I do really appreciate him. But there is this discussion about privacy, yes, that it's something that should also be addressed when you're talking from an institutional investor, which is different from Bitcoiners, which are not institutional investors. What do I mean with this? This micro-sailor has 100,000 Bitcoin. Yes, they're all wide-leveled Bitcoin, very nicely. Bitcoin, why would he care about privacy into the Bitcoin? Yes, why would he be an active promoter about, yes, let's fight also for privacy into this? Why should institution, why should gray scale fight for that? They have 600,000 Bitcoin stored, yes. So this is, I think privacy will be the core. I don't think it will be the discussion from everyone. And I might even see that privacy against scarcity, yes, it's not against, but scarcity is okay, privacy. Yeah, but, yes, eventually some don't need that kind of privacy. Yes, so I think this might become like the, not only the thing programmers would move into, but the big main future discussion, yes, about Bitcoin's evolution. How much privacy into this? That's right, I've been very surprised about how that's right was by 90% of the miners, yes, both in. And that's really like a first step towards higher privacy into Bitcoin. And must is a second very big step into privacy into Bitcoin. It's always opt in, you don't need to do all tax transactions, not all mass transactions, but it's like an opt in. I think that opt will be relevant, but we might start seeing white and black. And this makes white more valuable than black, black more valuable than white, I don't know, but Bitcoin's at 21 million. So, fungibility Bitcoin, it's a way of seeing it. They're not so tangible when you know the history of the Bitcoin, no? So I think that this white, black, this is something that will start occurring in the very near future as big discussions, the next big discussion into the Bitcoin will be privacy, not because as big partners we would all say privacy, it's okay. Because not all players are so expecting, expected about this privacy concern. And now, I don't left the scene, so I guess I should just keep on this concept. But I really think if this could occur, if privacy becomes like the main discussion, we might be discussing also about a future fork or something like that among the ones who are really active into this and non-activity to the privacy. So I don't know how much you've heard them, but... Well, I do think you're right that privacy is going to be the next issue for Bitcoin, and this might actually cause some separation between us and our newfound business friends, like you said, Sailor and Jack, Jack Dorsey, some of these other people, because they might not want the upgrades that the programmers deliver. And we put all our hopes into these players because we all need to get hopes from where we can. Yes. But let's understand that they have also their own reasons to be here. And we are not all the same in this space and not everyone supports. Actually, not even you and me, yes, because your concerns about privacy might be different than mine concerns about privacy. In Argentina, my concern about privacy is not paying taxes. It's not being abused by the government later, yes, about willing them to take my Bitcoin from me, eventually. Or not being harassed or hijacked, I don't know, say, at the gunpoint, yes, by people because in my country, they tell others who has Bitcoin and they go against you. So concerns about privacy, yes, it's not even the same for everyone. So, and it is like a plural open space for hundreds of thousands of players, yes. And my make-up, I guess they are not discussing this. But watch it in this way, yes? 21 million Bitcoin, okay. Some of them, highly white, some of them don't. If you are on the white side, would you like to promote that it's the $21 million? It's our 5 million of whites, the one that can be moved and get much more value. If we also create this white and black situation, I mean, big concerns, big concerns of decision. I thought we'd just be friends forever. But we were talking in the chat earlier this week with Martin and he was talking about how once he used to live on an island. And at first he thought it was going to be great, and you'd be all private and all off by yourself. But pretty soon he realized that the only way on or off the island was the boat or the plane. And that the government, whichever one it was, was watching the boat and watching the plane. And pretty soon he realized that maybe it's not so good to be on an island. We might find out more about this with Bitcoin privacy. My answer here, I would say that, yeah, it's bad for the altcoins. I think it's worse for the altcoins than for Bitcoin. I think it's bad for people that have addresses like Michael Sailor or Vitalik Booterin, their companies, their altcoins, the way they did business are going to be analyzed once again. And especially if there's anything back there that they can find that they could tax, maybe they'll adjust the way they saw the Ethereum IPO or something like that. So bad for them, Bitcoin survives. And again, this isn't concrete, but it is important to know like the author said like Jake said in his post, it's just about the revenue. They like, everyone's like, there after our freedom, the government's here, blah, blah, blah. Now, this was just a line item about revenue. They just want that 28 billion. I agree with the guy. I don't know where they got the numbers that all of the tax cheats in Bitcoin are worth 28 billion and they're going to fund your infrastructure bill. But that's what they need just for the numbers, just for the bill so that it says that it's revenue neutral. What actually happens in the real world, everyone knows nothing is revenue neutral. But we are just upon in a larger game. So don't expect it to be mentioned in the papers. Everyone's like, this will be news everywhere. Now, this is a Bitcoin news and I agree with the articles, if you want to contact your senators, if you want to contact your people, that's probably the best thing you can do. It would let them know that you think this is a ridiculous law. They don't know how stupid it sounds. They're just doing the math and assuming that they're going to make all the revenue and they don't have to raise taxes or have new taxes, which as we know is political suicide these days. Moving on to issue two from cash to Bitcoin. Are we heading towards a cryptocurrency future? Well, we've been talking about this for years about the importance of cash versus Bitcoin, how cash is an ability for people to spend money, which they're trying to tighten up Bitcoin is a people that spend money as pseudo anonymous, but cash is truly anonymous. Will Bitcoin finally eliminate cash? Normally, I would say no, but I think we're getting closer now than we were before. And I'm still not sure it's a good thing. I do think that the lightning network is more anonymous than Bitcoin, but it's still pseudo anonymous cash. Say what you will about it. It's really anonymous. You know, I got money from the ATM. I gave it to the guy to pick up my junk from the front yard. Junk is gone. Cash is gone. The deal is over. I have no idea who that guy was. I can't go back years later and show a record of it. Much worse, a digital record in a database with hundreds of other records as Redolf was talking about. Michael sailor and other people are hoarding these white label these fresh bitcoins come direct from the minor, never been sent around, never dirty, like the cash. We all know that story from Washington DC about how I don't know one in every 10 bill had cocaine on it, blah, blah, blah. And also how dirty money is just filthy and physically dirty. Now think about that if you had it in a database, you could tell who had the cocaine at every level. You could tell who had the dirty hands. You could tell who had the doughnut that morning. You can get an incredible amount of money. Sorry, incredible amount of information, the practically the same thing. When you have a database, when I can line up your cash transactions with your credit, with your movement, with all the other information I can get about you. So getting rid of cash while it sounds good and technological and all the iPhones have little wallets on them now. So you don't need to carry around your wallet and all those annoying old-fashioned pills. We should keep an eye on cash because and think about what we're losing, what we're giving up. It was a very private medium. Redolfo, your thoughts on Bitcoin versus cash. Yes, we go back to privacy. Again, the discussion on privacy. Yes, it's not I think that Bitcoin does hold most of the cash properties. But not the one hundred percent privacy. And it's not about recording. It's about how much you can watch about what's been recorded. Because again, if you sort of do transactions, be a lighting network, yes. Most of them want to go finally to the to the most of them. No, any lighting network transaction will finally be in the in the Bitcoin network. Yes, they will be occur all on offsite notes. And eventually those recordings of the notes are in the middle while they're not like open and shareable. So I guess that Bitcoin does have the quality of being of cat. One of the good things of cash is the physical aspect. They can and the only thing in the physical aspect, the only relevant aspect of physical things is that they can't be in the same place at the same time. Yes, two different elements in the same place at the same time. And Bitcoin created this car city because not all this car city. It's car city, but this asset that can be twice spent twice the same in. So it's like as every Satoshi is as unique as one currency bill. Yes. So this is one of the things that digital money is not. This is we all know this is not used for anyone listening to this. But this is one of the things is just like having currencies just when you give me 100 bucks. The only way of getting it back is. Manacing you and telling me to me or or stealing your wallet, but it's not like digital currency. Yes. But it has history. I think that as long as we move on history, we are seeing it in a network, but of eventually stabs and mass and others. Yes, solutions. We will start seeing less history into the big transactions. If this comes with also a support from the from the whole ecosystem where we have for it. I don't know this is the other discussion before, but I think this is something that will occur and between will be at the same level that cash eventually also on that aspect with the benefits or being digital. Which you can't have because you said the guy who is moving my loan or or taking out the garbage. Yes. You could be talking about that guy in Europe, you being in US, no. Giving him the cash that has no trades. So, so I think it's it's like, okay, this and that. But we will move into a more non traceable solutions. Yes. And the ones that said the cash and others can be discussed if they are or they are not money or etc. They were not as successful as they need to find the same use case and use acceptance and items, no. But I think we will move into more private eventfully transactions also. This has been said the article that you was that you was discussing today or I was shared for this talk. It talk about what's happening in some other what's happening in in other places. Yes. And I and you can see you can see in I was sharing with you earlier today, no, that for example in Argentina. There is a city called San Martindelo Sandes and I was surprised to listen to the day that one of the companies lemon cash is it's a local company. Yes, actively moving now in Latin America. And before becoming this lemon cash they had this project about helping San Martindelo Sandes, which is very interesting. Yes, to go into into crypto payments and almost 70% of the. All those restaurants you ask are taking Bitcoin there is a pain so. So it's a very bad thing to do. So I mean, it flows. I mean, I see that it could eventually happen. It could eventually be adopted as cash as long as we solve this other tracing problems. It's interesting the way these were two totally different issues, but everything seems to come back to privacy. I remember when we were trying to solve the scaling problem and everyone was like, what about privacy? We're like, just let us get scaling under our feet. Let us get a secure foundation to build upon and then we'll go to privacy. But who knew the shift would happen so fast when suddenly just the Senate's after us the cash people are after us. But if we had that privacy, we could we could change this we could turn it all around the discussion is harder. Yes, scaling we all needed we all decide we all decide that eventually it's it's not about it's scaling. I think we all agree we need to skate. Yes, we were discussing if you see the first layer of the second layer we were discussing if we were doing it now or we do it later once we have. Do all the compression possible in the in the actual area. So so the scaling was not such it was a big debate. But somehow yes, it was about something that we all agree is just about when yes privacy. We do agree but in different kind of levels and in different kind of if you think about second layers of third layers they're all government somehow. Influenced yes, it's not brought up to this not the open brought up a layer so so on that when you're talking about that which makes things to flow and allows you to pay to the five market allows you. Privacy is not as relevant or as important from everyone or or some institutional investors mainly might not be as concerned so I think this discussion is much harder much much worse than the one we had before yes. I think so I think you're right before before even though we had the the disagreement with bit main and they might have been making more money on the chips or whatever that muddy the water I agree everyone wanted to scale everyone wanted a different plan to scale with privacy everyone wants some privacy but they certainly don't want that total privacy and this goes back to the foundations of the very idea of digital money if you remember when they created PayPal PayPal at first kind of wanted to be like Bitcoin where they had a token that would go from many computers and you could run a PayPal wallet on your computer and I could run one on mine and they quickly figured out that you and I could pay each other for anything we wanted and while that sounds great if you look at it from a company perspective they would be potentially liable for all of those payments so if we went and paid somebody for something bad PayPal would be liable so in that same way people like sailor and maybe jack Dorsey might have to back away from Bitcoin if it becomes too private and they might use their power to prevent it from becoming too private so it really is once again back to the programmers back to the users back to the miners the groups of Bitcoin to see where it goes. Let's move on to the exit question the analog to digital switch was so fast it feels like it was just a few minutes we had audio cassettes and record players CDs now MP3 digital files. How quickly will we switch from analog cash to digital cash whether it be Bitcoin lightning or something else one year three years or five years redolfo which direction are you heading how long do you think it will be. To really move on. Imagine many years I don't know twenty fifteen no not one three or ten or five I perhaps I didn't get the question straight you mean totally globally in which sense you mean like go. I think it happened fast I mean I think something like the Facebook project if that got off the ground and if one or two of these things went forward and pretty soon everyone's going digital I mean because it just happened so fast even right now apples producing a program that's going to digitize identification cards so hold back from the digital wallet idea because you got to think about the kids today they don't want to hold around a hunka cow leather to say I got my money in it they don't pull in that out their phone people they wanted all the phone you might have a different approach on me again. Sometimes it happens to me when I'm from another country yes from another point of view that American people use or repeat and points of view no I was in US I was with my brother in US yes I couldn't come back to the dean I want to do and I almost never saw my brother spending cash. So tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap they use credit card for almost everything ask me in Argentina how much people would tap tap tap and pay credit. Yes we do it's it's not a poor country it's like a regular country yes but cash is the king yes and ask me in in a big amount of the 187 countries around the world yes where cash is the king so perhaps if you see it from your point of view or for your experience yes you will say well we are very near we have been Bimo Bimo and we have a Apple Pay we don't have a we have Google Pay we don't have Google Pay and we have credit cards everywhere and we have Okay and we are already all doing by digital but not in the world in some parts of the world perhaps them for some the relevant part of the world yes the important parts of the world but but actually when I was answering that time 15 it becomes my approach is more like we still need to move from from cash to digital concepts yes and then go away from replacing the digital with Bitcoin so so from a global perspective I think it's way longer than the the process yes beyond what's happening in some other places no but beyond that I think it's at least but at least 10 years like okay let's say something here in the US it could be less than five years but it might not be Bitcoin it might be digital credit cards moving on to issue three nodes on Bitcoin Lightning Network double in three months they said it couldn't happen they got out their charts and they graphs and they told us that the Lightning Network could never grow it could never grow at a rate fast enough to support all the users that would need but meanwhile the Lightning Network out of nowhere has doubled the amount of nodes in three months Redolful your thoughts on the continued growth of the Lightning Network the thing that they said never could happen see happening I think we're way short from what we need to be not actually in the size I think we are scaling pretty cool yes but we're discussing about 1,800 bit points it's it's not even away yes it's like a starting way so but it's for small payments so actually 1.8 or small payments is enough it's not for moving billions of dollars but yes for small trading and operations yes so I think it's a very good it shows fairly well where we're heading to yes but we are away from from the adoption I would expect yes I've been using when I can't say eventually platforms that I've been using because they're not sponsors here yes but I've been using a one that allows me to create when I was in US I have no credit card so I was was using a platform allows me to create on the fly a credit card yes for paying online stuff in US and I was using it in network for payments like 800 dollars also I like the network because it was very easy to do it instantly at much it would cost me as much as in the Bitcoin network no so so I was using it for for fairly interesting payments and and it was an amazing experience and I've been using the wallet that Jack suggests not because it's being of Jack but because it's a titanium the moon wallet and actually I said bit because there I don't need to create any node of lighting or anything and I just pay if it's a lighting network cure it would pay lighting if it's a bit of cure it would pay a bit you it's the easiest platform and it makes it very easy so I think that yet in my country or mine correlatives yes I see a few adoption of lighting I would expect a huge more adoption so I guess that lighting's gross it's not about how much nodes there are or how much big best there in it and about how much people is willing to start trading at not trading start paying and using lighting it's more about about promotion or spreading the word that about its growth that we see numbers yes it should come before people have it the needs of using lighting as a way of paying staff well I want to follow up on the question and just dunk once again on all the people who said it couldn't happen because I remember when they got out their graphs and their charts and they said lighting network isn't growing fast enough and we should just give up and they were wrong it's growing people are adding on new nodes there's a great tweet this morning I forget his name but he's been tracking lightning for a long time and setting up actual profitable nodes and he said he was just able to make 30 thousand dollars this year which you know isn't a lot to him and you know is like half a salary to a lot of people in the US and such but is a ton of money to someone in the develop in world and how the idea of making money running a lightning node you do have to configure it there are options there are things you have to know it's not just plug and play but it does seem to be possible which is going to incentivize more nodes which could lead to a mining situation where people have buildings full of nodes I don't know where it ends but the fact that people are being incentivized and that they're just choosing to add to the network for the good of the network continues to build this secondary layer on top of the world. Bitcoin for small payments and I agree with you I think you know small payments now about like you said $800 a thousand dollars that's kind of a small payment soon you know for a lot of people that's a ton of money no doubt that's you know you work very hard to earn that but for the Bitcoin network for the the kind of thing that we're building that could be very small and pretty soon small payments could be $10,000 or $100,000 or something like that so we do have that in the future. Absolutely actually it's not about the the amount because amount is related to the price of Bitcoin it's about how many satosis are the fees to related to the amount because if we're saying yes I'm moving 0.001 and it's $1 million okay but if the fees which are not related to dollars are related to size and satosis provide yes that's what I mean it's relevant 800 is not relevant for many for several. Yes but 800 in the Bitcoin protocol having to pay $30 when I can't really sell yes if so so it's not about how much money it is but about how much how many sets is against the fee of the sets and so it's not I think that that's the issue and and I really think that most things might go into writing also also because of the spirits of privacy yes but when we were discussing notes eventually also notes we need a KYC I don't know talk. Well don't worry about that we'll get to that when it happens but yes it's all about the satosis and oh how fun has it been to have that final little decimal place named sats or named satosis after the creators Satoshi Nakamoto a lot of people weren't sure about the name. Or they weren't sure about if we need bits or bytes or whatever kind of decimal places that we're confusing but everyone getting down to the sats and then just hearing Satoshi his name or her name or their name or whatever said like 100,000 times it's just fun I think that's just a great great little tribute. It's novel I think it's like a good I mean what's fun what what it's like the the fun part of this is that finally the fun part of this is that finally the fun part of the finally the smallest decimal of Bitcoin becomes something relevant. I mean not naming it Satoshi because we could have maybe Satoshi and no one ever use it but the fun part is that we actively use this sat as as eventually every time more relevant relevant element or asset. It's like sat is what we are measuring big components and also one of the nicest things we always say that Bitcoin we know we say Bitcoin is really like that, but it's it needs to be a store of value yes we all know it's against our value it needs to be a user you need to account and a medium of transfer no this is like my while money is. And every economist will say it's not a medium of account yes but in the mining Bitcoin is the unit of account yes you don't care how much it becomes priced the unit of account is Bitcoin yes and you're paying a certain amount of sats so actually the sat is Satoshi it is I think of it being called like the creator yes it's really the real moment. Real moment in which Bitcoin is used in his full concept of currency yes it's being a store of value it's being used as a unit of account and as a medium of transfer of this value so I think it's a huge and recognition to Satoshi. I can only imagine what Bitcoiners the past would think if they transported here to the future and we told them that yes no one is trading or using Bitcoin anymore and no one says buy coins with an s or I've got a lot of Bitcoins that hardly ever happens but now we're trading eight digits down at Satoshi's and it's only been you know about 10 years or so it hasn't been that long so it's exciting to see it move this fast let's move on to the exit question. Exit question Rudolph when's the last time you use the lightning network what did you buy what wallet did you use how did it go today I am doing a contest for for NFTs yes and I was trying to use rarotoshi and rarotoshi is from liquid yes so I had to get some liquid from liquid a bit to see I mean I don't know if I can do it. I don't like to use things that are not BDC so I'm not using the ones of it in human all that I was looking for one in where I could do it with BDC and I could do it with with with lightning Bitcoin or liquid yes so I used like the network to send some bucks there and support one of my of my friends that are being artist there so I did it today. How did it go they got the sats did it go for you actually I mean I'm actively using like the network yes and it's it's amazing it's it's great it's great. It's been a little while since I've used it we need Ben to get back on here with all of his little gadgets I'm pretty sure the last time I used it it's a scan one of Ben's codes to make something pop up on the screen or was low smoke Adam or something but went great I used a wallet of Satoshi it was cheap and fast and you just got to learn again I've always told people is like you need to learn how to use email back in the day even though you had no one to email you need to learn how to use your Bitcoin wallet now if you have a familiarity with scanning QR codes entering in amounts sending digital currency you're ahead of you know I don't know 80% of the world your way far ahead even if you just understand that little thing and can teach people that you can teach people how do you use wallet. But the good thing is this new wallets that makes you not needing to understand about lining I I've been using blue wallets for example yes and if you're blue one you have Bitcoin and you have lightning why I mean why it's it's comprehensive but better that kind of complexity but having Bitcoin or lining yes it needs to be removed and most of the I think one is especially also a big big thing so when you use this when you start using things like moon for example you just you just forget about that you have Bitcoin if you need to do a payment for lightning you will go through lightning because so actually what we need to do is not needing to learn it's just use it it's it's what it's our send and receive that's all you need to know send and receive yes scanning QR right now secure but making if it's Bitcoin or lightning what are you paying and that's a additional complexity I think that we will move on to wallets where you don't even need to discuss this and you will do the easiest and most most logic payment and either in lightning or in Bitcoin according to the one who's asking you the money but not for the one who's paying the money. We've always said all the complexity would be worked out and you certainly wouldn't have to run a node or configure your mobile wallet to your node that was all early hobbyist behavior where we were having fun and we were getting ahead of the curve using that network I agree with you I think it's going to be send received super easy everyone will have a wallet they won't even know if it's Bitcoin lightning lightning to liquid whatever it is they'll just use it like electronic money. Moving on to the next issue check out WCN clips on YouTube just Google WCN clips check out all the amazing clips from this show and other shows on the world crypto network you can even share them with your friends at WCN clips on YouTube it's also a great time for everyone to give us a thumbs up we've got about 36 people watching on YouTube if everyone would just reach down and give us a thumbs up I'll bet we could get 40 people watching no problem. Moving on to issue four issue four. Bitcoin's biggest corporate investor in posts $299 million loss after crypto crash but billionaire CEO says he's not backing down micro strategy which as we discussed earlier owns more Bitcoin than any other corporation in the world posted its biggest loss ever Thursday as a result of the cryptocurrency's massive crash. Last quarter but the company's long time CEO says the company will continue buying more of the volatile asset amid strong support from institutional investors. We're talking about Michael sailor before we've always said this was coming there would be a point where the board came to him with pitch forks and said what are you doing with our money I don't think we're quite there yet but we are starting to see signs of Michael sailors position in his company. How long do you think he continue will the board remove sailor and force them to sell their Bitcoin. I think of sailor less or less right yes he really is less or less. But you raise point I mean will they remove him from the board I mean eventually these things happen and can happen. I don't know it's one of my concern and it's not it's like a loan who cares what Alan says when market but I don't when but the market that's yes and when about the market will feed themselves will will will find a again the road after the impact of what Alan says. Actually it's kind of the same who cares what sailor says we all do but that but me I really think it did not because of sailor says of it but me now they institutional investors perhaps not the ones who are keeping it at 40. But I'm always concerned about how much of our trust is being played some people and companies instead of what makes Bitcoin probably yeah the sole real scars asset in the world from the near future yes so so if you're really into that I know what happens to my strategy or to sailor is just a stone in the road yes. Something that you think it will eventually outcome as you expect if you don't believe that we will survive any of those things then why are you being. Okay if you're just for the money okay yes but if you don't believe that government will attack but we will survive attacking that big investors will invest and they will be push or somehow decide then to any best if you don't expect big players to say hey and then say no I mean this should happen this will happen. If you don't realize that these things will happen then you're watching a different movie yes might happen with sailor I don't know I guess it won't happen with grace gate for example yes because grace gate is himself I guess it's different it's great great. Grace is 100% yes but it's 100% Bitcoin yes while my strategy is a plural platform of investments yes so so better than risk good disappear but I guess they won't change him for another one start sailing and doing another I don't know I don't know I see you doing that. So I don't know but but I think it's I don't see a near future with this might occur but if Bitcoin goes back to 12 who knows I one of the things I read in an article recently I guess the one you shared to me is that he was looking for 500 and he got the 1.5 billion yes for the next round. And it was when it went down when it went down to 33 so if it goes down to 12 and he says oh but it is simply to buy perhaps it's 5 billion so but I don't know. Bitcoin is this great when it goes apps everyone goes to buy when it goes down everyone is and some say yes but that's fine but it's going down the trend so I don't know I think that it might occur I hope that there were ways but Bitcoin ways no institutional ways no investment ways no Bitcoin in the middle ways yes that are big. We just stay and keep believing and the price is just a moment in the Bitcoin life. I think there's a very interesting disconnect into man where somehow the information about Bitcoin got muddled we had all those periods where it was a Ponzi scheme and it was just for Silk Road people and it was terrorist money or it used too much energy whatever they're going to say. And it got muddled right and all the people and normal people business people all the kind of people that should be buying Bitcoin aren't buying Bitcoin and they aren't valuing it and they aren't saying just like they would say with an NFT there's like wow there's only 21 million of these NFTs you know that means not that many people can get one that kind of thing they're not saying that with Bitcoin yet. But Michael sailor was Michael sailor and his company went hard they went heavy into Bitcoin with the idea being that they had the information and they were ahead of all these people and that all these people would naturally follow so now the question is how long can sailor and his crew hold out before the rest of these people wake up to what we as Bitcoiners already know how incredibly valuable these things are how little we have of them how desperately we're trying to hold on to what we have. And you know it's different again Elon Elon claims he's a holder or a hotler whatever and he has billions of dollars you know he's not like anything he's doing what he wants to do it's that guy that's working at McDonald's that guy that's working construction that's holding on to his couple hundred dollars in Bitcoin that guy's a hotler that guy is fighting it out and every coffee he skips and every decision not to buy a magazine or whatever to go to the library save some money whatever you got to do everything he does there that guy is going to do that. This guy is saving and hot so the quiet it's just a question of time will his board hold out when all those people come or will they be this incredible story where they were too early and they had the right strategy they had the buy Bitcoin and hold it strategy and they even they told us they had all these meetings and the websites and the information and everything but it's could still go down so I think it's an exciting period. I think it's done that one of the things that for sure happens is history. Yes, investing into I started in 2011 I don't remember we talk about this but I don't remember when it starts but two something is in it. Yes and I always say people ask you when you start yes and oh yes it's a real redoing was a 10 or a 20. It's not about when you start but how many times you stay in yes it's the release it's what you went through not when you start because much people bought a 10 and 12 and it were 20% you. Yes so it's not when you start it's not what price you bought but it's what you went through during all that time yes so history explains you about what you might go through. It's not the truth it's just history but it's something which is create your truth yes and everything in value yes it's expected utility expected cost and how much you add of trust in these expectations why you expect it to go up or you expect it to go down or you expect to spend something and there's always trust in the middle not like Bitcoin is so important for changing the way we create trust no this is blockchain or not so. So history is relevant and these investors that are coming today they have 12 years of history yes and history shows that Bitcoin does huge movements so if you introduce your board about Bitcoin going into Bitcoin and you introduce them about the past and yet you talk to them that it might go 80% down but we're doing this. It's huge investment because it's long term 200% and we are when you invest actually think like this when you invest in a company yes and you put $2 million in a company I VC 10 million in a company eventually at 10 5 years later it turns out that it fades okay you lost the 5 years yes but you wait 5 years to see if it really multiplies 12 300 for 100 times so in Bitcoin we happen to see. 5 years of down trades of down trades yes and it's just about wait wait hold hold hold yes it's okay it's a bad moment okay go down down down and we have quarters that we have to show oh we're going down down down down down down down down but let's hold because we're doing an investment for 5 10 50 so it has to do with with the scope you put and understanding which are the risks in the middle of that scope. I'm sure that if they study the past they are ready for what might come about the prices yes and they expect because that's how they create their trust you know they believe based on the past that they expect that in 5 years between halving and halving yes prices tend to go up so I want to be so concerned it's like a different kind of asset they need to know that they are a different kind of asset they need to look back and look and put their side of what future they expect no I we have no reasons no reasons yet to believe that Bitcoin in the future won't be more valuable that big to need the best yes I just hope that Michael sailor and his board have better advisors than Elon Musk because we all saw what happened to Elon Musk it seems like they did no no information no study of Bitcoin decided to accept it a couple weeks later it got a little warm the environmental pressures maybe there dependent on government subsidies so they have to clean up their ass they can do for the Bitcoin but still they they've got to do that research they got to know when they go in like you're saying if it's a five year investment if it's 10 year investment they could lose 80% of their money yet if they wait for the have to wait till I don't know two years after the have to whatever it's going to be which is really hard to say it sounds like I sound like a con man now I'm like just wait two more years and we'll send you the product just wait two more years the product is coming along you know yes I'm sorry this is not just a comment it's like you study and you understand that even though we have like people in the chat were saying we will have cdbc's and that what we will be pushed towards everyone yes yes we will have the city and that will be the digital currency most people will be using yes yes but even though cdbc's even though even though you understand that because we'll be the only real scars asset in the world yes so and and and and many pull up and all the stuff yes so when you understand those things it's not about conning man it's about believing in stuff beyond the just expectations it will go up no why it will go up because it will still be because actually because we will have cdbc's but that's bad no that's good because cdbc's will fail we will be abused we'll show that it's the same the digital currency so I think it's believing in stuff yes and so so I also like it's a lot based on charts and past performance and the incredible ability of humans to predict a future performance with past performance based upon math I don't know that much about this but I read the book Money Ball and I saw the movie and I know that they can tell that baseball players are good because they're good in the past Michael sailor and his crew are looking at Bitcoin and like you say now as in the past we were like brand new and we were like it's so new but now for these guys they have 10 years they 12 years they have this record they can look back on and they could say well if it does this then it'll do that and they can use all their fancy maps and hopefully come to the conclusion they should hold and see how it goes I mean time will say always time will say yes but but I don't see research anything in the future that might prevail that Bitcoin keeps being the most secure and certain scars I don't know if you remember remember when back then to 2011 eventually 12 we had the 42 coin there was a coin which was 42 coin they had just 42 there was also a great one called one coin not the one where there was there was just one coin so if you had like a point one of one coin you had 10% of the market So it's never about scarcity yes scarcity it's something needed to have value but it's not because of being scars or more scars it will have more value yes it has to do with adoption with people willing to have it so but beyond that we might have other assets that become more scars than Bitcoin yeah it's not easy to even to create them yes but as other assets in which we can trust that this scarcity won't be manipulated only bit today for me only bit not even Ethereum not even Ethereum changing their their mining and making destroying coins in the future I don't care so if it will become more scars if you know if the amount expected can be or if the promise of with scarcity of which scarcity model is being offered by others we'd be respected in the future yes so that's in what I believe that that's only Bitcoin yes I don't care how many others are there I don't care if Volkadot is the wallet the blockchain of the blockchain and if you think I don't care because that's not the thing I make to believe who's prevailed in the future what prevails in the future is the most trustable assets yes and I only foresee the real trust yes on the Bitcoin way of solving the evolution of the blockchain so I don't know I that's what I see I don't think anything I run it I don't think anything around changing it obviously not the CDVs so the VCs is the opposite is let's print as many as we need yes so why should I be concerned I feel like okay let's move more people more argentinians that don't have digital cash oh let's move into digital cash then they will I think it's I think I think at the time with you it's like a fight yes and we will see a con a geo geo economical fight among CDVs it will make different currencies more accessible to anyone in the world yes today US is the number one currency accessible to anyone but if I would like to have Swiss francs it's not as easy I would like to have a joint it's not as easy no it will be easy yes so I guess it will be a fight for them not against Bitcoin for them and the debris of this fight will be the the nurture the food yes of this nice turtle that it's called Bitcoin that slowly moves towards its goal of becoming the number one reserve so really if I were a sailor I would be seeing the same movie well never forget there is an infinite amount of cash at the federal reserve an infinite amount of cash at the federal reserve that's a lot but let's move on to the exit question of pick one which one of the Bitcoin CEOs for lack of a better word will be the most successful jack Dorsey with Twitter Michael sailor with micro strategy or Elon Musk who isn't sure that he likes Bitcoin but says that space X and Tesla own a lot of it choose your Bitcoin CEO head Redolfo I would like it to be I would like it to be Jack I think it will be original be sailor it's Jack is more because of the fight I think sailor is more because of of the aspects and the possibilities is brings for for investment is that they don't and I don't care I don't care yes I think it's probably it's much easier for sailor to succeed all he has to do is hold onto that Bitcoin till it's worth more than what he paid for sell it for more and he's a hero to the board right that's it's pretty simple he's got a simple job I'm rooting for Jack though to I really like what he's doing with Twitter expanding into spaces expanding into I think a lot of other new projects they'll be launching this year and it's a it's becoming quite a nice communications tool it has parts of it that are similar to Instagram or Facebook has aspects of kind of everything clubhouse other software and it's really coming together and jack seems to have the right ideas I don't know if he's going to quite let it loose let Twitter become a protocol especially with all the negative information and misinformation and things that such a thing could be used for so we're probably going to continue to go back and forth on privacy and those kind of issues but as far as somebody that's taking Bitcoin real Bitcoin refusing all the others and hooking it up to the infrastructure of what his business does this isn't Facebook with Libra or whatever they change the name to as a you know subsidiary or side thing straight into Twitter straight into square cash straight into cash app jack dorsi is using Bitcoin is using real Bitcoin so we're rooting for jack and yeah what about Elon I don't know those are some nice cars though still nice cars moving on to issue five Bitcoin accumulation accelerates amongst whales fish wow Bitcoin rallies to $40,000 this is just on chain sentiment though coin telegraph says the big question is how does this relate to price action in general the price of Bitcoin is risen from $30,000 to over $40,000 perhaps continuing the long term bullish setup many have been talking about the stock to flow level and stock to flow seems like it's bounced still in the range perhaps we're still going to $150,000 or $200,000 of Bitcoin everyone wants it to go up everyone's buying Redolfo are the bulls back are we going nothing but up was that was that it was that the drop or is there more pain in the future your thoughts on the price of Bitcoin I'm sorry about doing price predictions I'm telling me about doing them it's very well about playing them so I don't know I don't think I don't think it's it we've seen all no I think it will keep moving up and down no I even still believe that it might go below 30 in the near future but I don't know I actually don't understand why it went to 40 yes so it's like you I'm always happening yeah because at the b world at the battery really I don't know I really don't care that much anyway that's because I don't spend money time into into this kind of stuff but I really I I never been that good about making money yes and and when I always see these ways that they're raising more and more I like wow congratulations because I could be raising more and more and I never do so it's just like I go with the with the way but I see them and these fishes and the ways that they're doing investment and trying to to win the market and I'm glad if they if they achieve it but but anyway ways it's not a good I don't I don't see ways like a good thing yes I see ways like sometimes I can raise also no not only like a good thing so so it's now that the ways are getting bigger we are more secure no why a way should be more secure because they're really hotlers but if they're hotters that are playing the market why should we be more secure having ways it's like no they're playing the market and they want to get more and getting more will make it eventually try to dump and and try to get more and so I would prefer not big ways I would prefer that always more spread but I see them I say oh great great for them but I don't think it's a good thing but it because it's the mid-genera I agree with Dolphal I'm not great at picking the market either in fact I've often thought I should publish a list of when I buy ourselves so that people could do that because and also for me it's always like I'm just so in favor of Bitcoin I just think it's such a good idea I thought it was good idea in the beginning I think it's a good idea now I just want to see it get where it's going so anytime it goes up I think we're going to the moon anytime it goes down I'm worried I think it's all falling apart but will still be fine just got to wait longer so it's good to be out of one of those downtrends like you're saying it feels better to be in an uptrend just has that good feeling to it I don't know if this is the one like everyone else I've been watching the plan b twitter to see what the new stock to flow model will teach us about Bitcoin but a long time ago I learned that there were only 21 million Bitcoin and that's pretty rare so it would be pretty neat to get your hands on one of those so we'll have to see on the price but unfortunately for you Redalfa you and I are both going to have to pick against the Bitcoin predictor all the greatest prognosticator of prognosticator the seer of seers this truly has all of the answers so Redalfa just one question for the exit question higher or lower this time next week which direction are you going no I'm going to I'll just follow I'll join Redalfa I usually say higher now the ball will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week here we go shaking the ball could cause bubbles you want to be careful here we go it is certain it is certain so there we go plan b the ball redalfa and I everybody on the same page for once we did it and we're also reaching the the end of the show so redalfa do you have a prediction or a story of the week anything you'd like to tell the people about what you're up to what's going on no I wanted to share and there is a very nice video last time we shared a video was nice I think this is even nicer a very nice video about about Elon about coins the moon stuff like that if you if you're able to share it I will read I think people will really enjoy it all right here we go again ready for a video from law bit confits as a holders to Mars let's see here sorry everybody a little loud we're not listening anything there is no sound oh I can hear oh and they are amazing Wow, fantastic video, Radolfo, really came out good. I thought we think about the lemon. But I was great to see him there and just, I love the part then with the pizza on his mask and even reminded me of the show I'm watching now for all mankind. The great show. It's very good. I need to. The second. The sick. The tempo. Yeah, I'm just starting. I'm way behind. I'm. But the minute I heard it was by Ron Moore, who did Ball start black and DS nine. I was like, oh, I'm sold. I'm in like. And then it was the 60s and the space race and a little bit of twists and turns. Very nice. So. Yeah. Yeah. We're now doing another one for announcing where we might host the next conference. And it's very shorter way shorter, but also very nice and these high quality. And what can you tell the people about law, bit conf? Where can they learn more and what's happening? Do you have any information? Go ahead. The big count has always been since 13, like the number one event in Latin America. Yes. For Latin Americans to have access to the big speakers in the space. They usually all come down to. To our conferences in wherever country we do it. And also for international people to do business down in Latin America. And this year we were doing it on Mars. As you see all these. Videos were about us doing it on Mars. But finally, we we are changing eventually to to a server. Near to the end of the year in person because of some other announcement. So so this is yet to be. And we are going to be. Confirmed. Yes. But it's the main idea. If we are unable to do it. Yes, it's for any reason we're not doing it. And we might be doing it any anyway. Again, online. But this time last year we did it on the moon. Yes. This year we will be doing it from. Yes. But you could expect very good news from the big cons. And we will be able to do it. And I think it is. If we are doing this in the same way. So it would be like a wall. The sounds fantastic and it's always great to have you on red alpha. Because I think. One of the first Bitcoin videos I saw was. And JS Antonopolis and I think he was speaking from law. BitComp had the big Bitcoin letters on the stage. And I was just blown away by what he was saying and how he was saying and everything about it. It was just great. a saver and just for those you know I think that Satoshi was like the main leader for bringing in the developers yes and the and the first believers in the one is being built I think that Andreas became like the main leader about bringing in believers people into the space yes this first big play big not I mean people me codlers creating codlers into the space yes and now I see say that like the main institutional driver yes of the space eventually I would have expected that sometime later we would see some kind to your some bank or something driving them into this somehow might occur with San Salvador yes so I think things are moving pretty fast yes because the time between Satoshi and Andreas and Andreas and Sailor are now Sailor and San Salvador is like it's like very huge very quick but but I think that some people place relevant roles in the in this and and it's like an evolution then we go from here to government then we go from here to people and then we go and yes Andreas has been supporting the victims since since the beginning since actually he was one of his part one of his first stocks and the one he did 2013 when he was like it's fantastic work and it's excellent stuff it's great to see it passed from Sailor or from Andreas to Sailor and then on I think that goes a little bit into my prediction a lot of people have been talking about it recently the companies denied it even though they're hiring people but I want to go ahead and predict Amazon will accept Bitcoin maybe this will be as Redolfo saying the the next thing to push it not just a government or a person like Sailor or Andreas but Amazon Jeff Bezos is gone there's a new CEO they need to differentiate themselves getting into Bitcoin and Lightning would be a great way to do it that's not saying they're ready yet it could still take three years they're going to write all their code they're going to have all their ducks in a row but when they get into it global worldwide and it could be a tax collection problem for all of the legacy countries and the old system so it'll be fun to see whoever runs Amazon now if they do this as I'm predicting it'll be fun to see and it'll be another exciting moment in Bitcoin shout out to Josh and Ben and Dan the crypto raptor and Chris and Rita and everybody else who's at me orca blockchain days apparently there's a small island off the coast of Spain called me orca and that's where everyone is this week so if you guys are looking for all the other panelists maybe you're hanging out with them in Spain just off the coast of the continent there at me orca blockchain days so shout out to those guys hope they're having a great time at the convention shout out to Chris who's running the show out there and everybody else who's working on the convention so great stuff to have conferences happening again hopefully everybody's staying safe and all that but that's about it for the show be sure to give us a thumbs up down below push subscribe if you haven't already thank you Redolfo for being our guest today thank you for your back and that's about it until next time bye