#266 — The Bitcoin Group #266 - China Crackdown - Consolidation Complete? - Crypto Cons - Contract Coin

The Bitcoin Group, the American original, for over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Arck from LNBITS. Should I? Hello, everybody. Michael Carter from BITS, be tripping. Let's get into this guys. Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. Good evening from the United Kingdom. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the world crypto network, moving on to issue one, issue one analysis, limited capacity, logistics to slow Chinese Bitcoin miners, global shift. China is continuing to move Bitcoin miners out of China, but it's taking longer than you might think, unplugging all those computers and moving them somewhere else to plug them in. Also, China continues to crack down on Bitcoin, taking down a company that was suspected of providing software services for virtual currency transactions. For years, China has signaled that it wants to ban Bitcoin. They could be looking to stem capital outflows via stablecoins and cryptocurrencies next, or it could be all part of their hundredth anniversary of the Chinese Communist Party. Be sure to give us a thumbs up down below if you're just starting to watch the show. Ben Arck, what's going on in China? Why is it taking so long to move the miners? It's a lot of weight. Those things weigh a lot. You have to put them on boats. You have to ship them around the world. They're not easy to move. And I imagine that those Bitcoin miners are dumping Bitcoin right now trying to get their miners moved into more friendly locations where they can start mining again. And it's interesting that China are doing this, but they're not just banning it and copying it, aren't they? They want to make their own digital currency. And they're not happy that Bitcoin would compete with their digital currency, which they're making. It would be interesting if it continues to kind of like affect the Bitcoin ecosystem in China. So if they start attacking the manufacturers like Bitmain, I imagine they will because for China, they don't care. It's not even a record. It's a tiny part of their GDP. And if they want to ban something, they'll ban it. And that's fine. That mining will just move somewhere else. The mining in China, as we said in other shows, it wasn't really sustainable. And it hasn't really been exploring the energy sources. Effectively, it's been using cheap coal energy, which has been subsidized by Chinese government. So it's not a bad thing that it's moving, but yeah, it's going to take a little bit of time and that's to be expected. It just be interesting where these miners start popping up, where they're going to start mining, Bitcoin, where they're going to sell shop. I know a lot of them are moving over to the US and maybe with some of the promises of free and clean energy, but volcano energy and somewhere like ourselves, or maybe if you all pop up there, maybe if you all pop up in Iceland and make use of all that geothermal limitless power, which is there, and running all the time. So yeah, cash rate will go up. But for now, we're going to have a debt while these miners are relocating. And I think the China is just going to keep on attacking Bitcoin until it's out of their country, so they don't have any competition and they can monopolize their digital currency and people using their digital currency. They can go anywhere they want as long as it's not my house. I want to watch movies and read books in peace. Carter from Bitspeach Trip and Your Thoughts on China. Yeah, I mean, I think to your point, they've been trying to break it for a while. And this was kind of a place that they could actually have a physical impact. They can show up to the various areas where it was being mined. They could see it on the grid as it started to scale up now, where it wasn't just a small power user. So now they had an idea of where these were at and then put out that ultimatum to shut down, or BC's type of thing. I think what we've seen so far is some of the faster moving, more organized shops out there in China have either liquidated some of their equipment or they've tried to find some partnership that was just out of China. And that's the stuff that we've seen move. And when we look at where Bitcoin has recovered so far, stuff is set in import still. It's some of it is getting deployed. But we still have a bit, I think, before we see it, a full recovery. But I think the point is, is it will fully recover in some way. And if it isn't that, it's going to be in the next series of equipment that starts to come out. To Ben's point, I think on what's the next sector that could be hit, it could be something like a bit main or one of the companies that are actually producing it. I've been looking to see if there's going to become a moratorium out there. Anybody that's doing any kind of pre-ordering of equipment, especially first batch stuff on some of the newer stuff, I would just take caution on it that you are in a very very agile, loose environment right now when it comes to regulatory in those countries that are probably most impacted from it. So investor capital and that sort of thing, I think, has a higher risk. I think a lot of the big companies that are buying that hardware either have some kind of understanding, or if it's at a poor level understanding or using a broker that understands the current regulatory environment there to keep them out of some of that risk. But America's, there's several countries in the EU right now that are like, hey, we're open for business, send them here. You can see, luckily in the States, it's 50 states, and even if the federal government comes out and puts some kind of restriction or I would say impediment, the states can follow it or they don't need to follow it, right? We've seen this with like mask mandates and stuff like that where states ultimately will come back and say, hey, we have created legislation here. We've created kind of grandfathered rules here and you're going to see places like Texas and Washington continue to operate in some of these other states that see that competitive advantage that the states are getting from revenue stream and new jobs and that sort of thing, you know, encourage more Bitcoin mining coming there. So outlook is still good. Nothing's shaken Bitcoin. I mean, a contraire to some of the risk out there. I think you do business in China that's part of your risk right now. And it's always been part of your risk, right? And it's a communist regime. At any point in time, we all knew that this could happen. It's just now finally happening. And the Bitcoin network signal to noise is showing us it's happening because the network dropped close to 50% of its hash rate, 28% network adjusted difficulty because it takes time for difficulty to adjust. The numbers after the last adjustment here that just happened a few days ago was 28, about 28.5% on the network adjustment side, which just means folks that are mining here are making close to 30% more yield even in a down market right now. So yeah, it's unfortunate that China is not seeing that. I mean, I feel bad because it's out of human level people, you know, they're trying to be part of this network and part of that environment. And anytime somebody comes and tells you you can't do that when you're doing it. And you were an innovator and a leader. I mean, they had 60% of the hash rate, you know, it sucks for them. But, you know, you know, what it is that's China, China is going to do what China wants to do. It's amazing being in Bitcoin this long. You have all these kind of potential black swans where you say, okay, Mt. Gox is going to go down BTC dash. E is going to go down all these other services look really risky. And you say, wow, everyone's mining in China. How long is that going to go on? You know, how long is this government that doesn't seem to like anything related to freedom or independence going to allow this free and independent coin to be mined in their country? And it's interesting to see this finally happen. But it's also if you put on a list, things that you think are going to happen in Bitcoin, like a country taking it or a country banning it. We've been talking about this for years. Another interesting idea, though, I think it's a long one, a bit of a stretch. There's a lot of these new Bitcoin miners where they put them right into the container already. If only we could then plug those containers in on the containerships, get some kind of satellite internet. It gets a little far fetch. But then we could mine at sea and they could never stop us from mining Bitcoin. So I'm sure technically it's a difficult sell. But if it's already in the container and you just need to plug it in, I think we could get it done. Dan, I heard some of those trucks back it up at Eros card. Do you want to weigh in on my container ship mining first? I was lab as your power is probably going to be your biggest issue there. But yeah, I mean, it's not completely far fetched. There is a lot of, there's an entire concept of what they call off the grid mining, right? Where you're not grid tied in, right? And there's various reasons why you'd want to do that. And part of it is especially around if there's not legislative issues, but just the local area you're in are concerned that you're going to pull too much or you're going to be putting the resources at max, not being tied into that system helps keep alleviating those kind of risk. But you know, having where you're competing and sending up to Bitcoin, block stream satellite, your only issue there is like you're you're trying to start in the race condition with one hand behind your back because of the latency issue. And you know, when you find a block and you broadcast it, you want that to be hitting every node possible to make sure that you're not racing against somebody else in your workers orphaned. But you know, over time, maybe maybe that's one for ironically we use Elon Starlink for that where we have faster latency at sea. It knows it's possible. It's an interesting idea. They are mining on the containerships, but it's also gosh, what was I going to say? It just messaged me. Go ahead Dan, you confused me. I've seen you moment, senior moment, the creep it in. It's got four different points. Dan, I see the trust. Sorry, your house. Go ahead. Sorry, that was my bad. I was sat on the wrong YouTube stream and I was thinking, yes, it's static as the show doesn't start yet. I think that's a very good point about the portability of these of mining years in general and as collections of mining units that it wouldn't surprise me if with the looming decision because I'm sure there was a reasonable amount of room at beforehand and if you're in the know, you may have had enough time to prep up and actually start to put into containers and try and make that transition as efficient as possible from one country to another, even finding sellers that could really earn early on. But it's just unfortunate because it is people's livelihoods that obviously people have invested. It's not just companies big rich, multinational companies, mining, Bitcoin, there are small start ups that start mining. The good thing is that obviously if the 70% of Bitcoin mining was done in China and that's going to be good for centralisation that has been banned and there's already been offers of saying come and mind at the volcano in El Salvador and hopefully more taking advantage of other renewables in say Iceland as we said. But I think the impact is probably a bit muted because the chip development has been slower. So the mining mine has actually been lasting a bit longer. What would have really ruffled feathers is if a brand new set of chips came out and huge in power surge in terms of hash rate but it's currently sitting at about 96 x a hash is down from an all time high of 175. But it seems to be at the end of the day it's very secure. It's more secure than it needs to be. If you actually look at the hash rate, we're still at the level that we were to work around the beginning of 2020. The network is just it's very secure. Obviously we'd like to see a massive mega pump in hash rate and more renewables to get that level up to 50% so that Elon Musk writes his Tesla stallion back again into the Bitcoin world. But yeah, I think we'll have to wait and see the long term impact of this. But I can imagine that hash rate is going to be jumping up pretty soon as the shipped mining units go back online and start to be switched on again. Dust it off. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Elon to come back. But I do have notes. My notes say that Bitcoin mining is a bit like choosing a cabin. You have your perfect location out on the hydro electric river. You're all set. But then you need a network cable and then you might need a little electricity too and then it's not a cabin. Then you're living in the suburbs. It's interesting the kind of trade offs where you want to be remote. You want to be near hydro. Maybe you even want to be in a strange remote country where they don't care very much about Bitcoin mining. But then you need a network cable. So it's all these different trade offs and it's interesting to see China declining. Maybe the US and other countries ascending here. What do you think Carter? Good. Yeah. Well, so it's the container ship kind of concept are the containers themselves was really for portability, but it also was a very innovative way to contain your hot and cold zones when you're building out like a mining rig set up like that where you could have your intake and your exhaust and a confined area and you could control the environment a lot better. Then you also had the portability of it and a lot of the container style farms don't even actually use like network connections. You don't need to centralize your networking area. They'll have their own LTE tower. So you can it's also sell networks and you know, and it's very interesting that they work very well on cell networks because you can put them in countries that don't necessarily have a huge infrastructure, but you could have a localized power and then you're just hitting the local cell network there. So when you start talking like Africa and areas that have pretty diverse cell network set up because they went, they kind of jumped over the concept of needing personal computers and it's straight to doing things with cell phones and mobile apps and the optimized LTE networks out there. It gives you a lot more portability. Additionally, you're going to see to the point of why the innovation track hasn't really slowed down. I mean, Bitcoin went from the Avalon A1s butterfly labs era to where it was using the 15, 16 nanometer architecture to now be in the tip of the spear, right? Where it is leading the innovation and pushing these foundries to three nanometer and lower, right? So they're at the tip of the spear now driving innovation. So as new breakthroughs are made there, it's Bitcoin because you have the proverbial arms race to have the most efficient setup there. So as new foundries are spun up in the US when we have Samsung, what come in here, I think was a TSMC's coming with a new foundry here. You're going to have a few new foundries in the next couple of years also statesides to kind of lighten some of that global pressure too. So it's going to be interesting to see, you know, where's the next? Is there another new bit main? Does Bitmain get kicked out of our leave China and start innovating in Taiwan or somewhere else that's next to a foundry? Just a little different structure. Just a question. Do you think that, who wants it in the chat just said something, which I was sort of thinking the same thing crypto player, that the in the chat, he just said that the Chinese mind is they're not going to move. They're just going to sort of go underground. You know, they're going to update go underground. Is that possible? And you say the people utilizing these cell towers? Is it because I mean, you've got obviously got the great Chinese firewall? Is it possible to mine Bitcoin? Because obviously a lot of their power grid, they haven't got power grid. It's like localized. And there's a lot of problems in the past with people kind of mining under the right door. So do you think that people, that will happen that they'll just kind of go underground and use to make use of these out. See, it'd be hard to go underground at a large scale because you're just going to put a footprint out there. And at a worst case, you put a heat footprint out there, even if you're not connected. And a lot of countries, at least like the larger countries like US, Russia, China, watch themselves in a whole bunch of different ways, including thermal footprints for different setups and stuff. And so like if somebody was trying to off-grade with scale, you would start to see where that heat production was. There's also a lot of, it's like, it's like when I talk like the OVAC blocks and things that have to do with regulation of like Bitcoin and stuff. And I start looking at it like it's like regulating like the phone network between people having a conversation on a phone line. It's not where you try to put that pressure at. There's already a massive infrastructure of legislation and structure around asset management. So even if you had somebody that was kind of going underground, they'd still have to requisition certain things, very expensive things. Like they're doing gas turbine or they found some kind of vent and inner Mongolia and area in China and was like, we're going to be kind of tactical where we're setting up. We've paid off all the officials locally. Nobody's going to know where here. You would still have a lot of large asset purchases that are going to have a trail. So supply chain trial, yeah. For sure. And then like somebody's going to ask a question and they're going to track it down on one of those components. And that's the same way when I, if I'm talking to somebody at Georgetown or if I go to DC to talk to a legislature or any of those folks, that's part of the thing is like when it comes down to the innovation and the tech stack, you should innovate, put innovation funds out there to be a participant, not so much put a heavy amount of regulation on the actual operation of like the way crypto works, proof of work and all that. Because you already have this massive infrastructure in place that anything we purchase over $10,000. I don't care what country and you can go to Malta with less rules. But if you got the Malta and drop a couple million dollars on a yacht, you're going to have a huge paper trail. So that is everywhere on this planet. And that's for all kinds of reasons. And it's not just because the US or bed and SEC wants to shut everything down. It's literally because every country has that interest that if somebody's buying things of large value, they want to know about it because it's a large asset in their country. So they could go off grid with some of it. It would, I think in China, you're never going to drum any of it out. It's the same thing if everybody in the entire world went cray, cray and started it's trying to shut down the decentralized system. You would just have this. You'd have people moving back to this single rigs being sold on black market. Things would be running at a home scale and you would still have a pretty diverse network across the entire world, right? And I think that's the kind of point is that it would still go underground. It might not be at the scale that it is and it would lose all large the big investors and all that stuff, but you'd still have this decentralized network. You know, from a China standpoint, maybe they get a handle on it. One of the speculative pieces that I've been talking to with and some of the guys from Compass is trying to understand why some of the stuff is still setting in port. And there's some speculation out there that they put a moratorium on shipping some of it because they're trying to get their arms around. What's going on here is it going to turn into like a state sponsored. You have like a bit licensed. And yes, this one province that is is ESG centric, you know, where it's renewable. You guys can go build your farms here. And is that going to be what the next phase of this is and trying to come back with 30% of the Bitcoin hash rate? But now under more of a state mandated, know your customer kind of concept. Seeing that some of that hash rate hasn't, you know, came back online and knowing that some of that stuff's sitting in port and not allowed to leave makes you wonder are they going to are they going to put it back under a state sponsored program and not let it leave country. Which is even more of a reason for Bitmain to kind of maybe check what's if they're wanting to stay in this. Are they going to become, you know, kind of state-owned and now they're going to regulate how much Bitcoin miners they sell and where's that where's that IP go? Where do the engineers go? Do they leave there and go to other competing companies and that kind of thing? I think that blends well into the exit question. Exit question. Will the yes or no, will the Chinese crack down continue? Ben Ark. Yes. Carter. I think so for sure, including into production. Dan Eve. Yeah, they want to butter people up for the one for the dissTV DC. So they're going to make Bitcoin sound as bad as possible. It's the hundredth anniversary of the Chinese Communist Party and everyone agrees the crackdown continues. Moving on to issue two issue two Bitcoin price consolidation may be nearing the end. Indicators suggest. Own car, God, bull riding in coin Bay says that Bitcoin may soon move out of its seven-week trading range of 30,000 to 40,000. With a major indicator, the Bollinger bands tracking that the price volatility may suggest a big move is overdue. Carter is the price of Bitcoin going up. I think in the next six months, it absolutely will. I think there's a couple other existential things that aren't being tracked by a lot of these, you know, I would call them market indicator indices that people are looking at to see from volume and use and all that. I think some of the tech stack that's coming into place right now, especially from like from fidelity on their side with trying to hit that open enrollment standpoint in November. So, you know, in the US, especially companies kick out open enrollment, which is when you go and you declare your 401k settings and your insurance settings, if they can actually get their investment portfolio and portals set up to add in that crypto segment. And if that's through, you know, current EFTs or that they're going to be because they have a custodial service site to where they'll be a custodial on behalf of folks, then you'll have that transfer of wealth that's in current 401k's moved over to, you know, fidelity investments. They have everything to gain from that. I think there's enough structure in place for them to continue to do that and at least offer current offerings out there. Nothing's stopping that right now. So, I can't imagine them not, you know, pursuing that and that's in this November. So, I think there's still a lot of innovation and movement on that that will put some serious buying pressure on Bitcoin and all these other things that we're tracking is kind of just noise. Dan, Eve, are you a bull and bullish? I think I'm bullish. Screw it. Yeah, I think the price has got to go up. I'm counting on it anyway. This bull runs not over yet. They got to lean over to the right there. You have to cover up the bear and highlight the bull in the background. Ben Arck, the price of Bitcoin up or down. Yeah, the TAs just nonsense at this point and that chart is an embarrassment. It's made on Microsoft Paint. So, it's funny how all these different technical analysis tools, they all claim that they're still in their channel. You know, we're still in a hyper wave and we're still in a stock to flow and blah, blah, blah. Like we're always in within their channel and they're not all accurate. Now we're certainly not all those, you know, day trader types who follow these technical analysis tools and can kind of shift the price, you know, within their ranges, they've dropped out, man, you know, like they're dropping like flies. And now we're getting down to the battle hard, the hot, the hot, the bedrock and fundamentals. And the fundamentals are that Bitcoin infrastructure is stronger than ever, ever. We've had a massive upgrade Bitcoin, Cores, 0.21, and a high-statt prudent grade into it. And I've heard it runs really nicely. And we've got all these new things, you know, just within the near future, which is going to make Bitcoin much more powerful piece of software as well as all this great software which has been developed by all these three open source developers. And, you know, crazy events like, you know, whole country now, controversial as it may be, but it's now, you know, a legal tangerine ourselves adore. And there's going to be a hell of a lot of innovation and Bitcoin being used in the wild, which is then going to, you know, create a lot of innovation and products which are being built on it. And, you know, like you have you have got fidelity, you've got my, so you've got all these incredibly large players jumping into Bitcoin as well. So yeah, the fundamentals are outstanding. But, you know, those traders are dropping and is supplying demand. So I do think that we are going to hit down to like, you know, 2015 K. But then we'll bounce up like crazy and we'll be heading towards that what 240 K. Yeah, the 240 K, which we talked about in the past. So yeah, we are going to drop in the near term to the next couple of months. It's going to be a bit of a rough road, the Bitcoin price doesn't look very strong. We just seem to be bouncing a long drop, bounce a long drop. So there's not much momentum there. But in the longer term, yeah, in the sort of six months and beyond then we were definitely going to shoot up on this week. The balls are going to come back just off the back of all that crazy fundamental momentum. I do agree, Ben, it's a very different market now than what it used to be trying to use the old tools to predict a market that includes Michael Saylor and Elon Musk. Elon Musk was bragging about hodling not too long ago. If you have millions of dollars, it's not difficult not to sell your investment. It's the rest of us that have rent bills that are chiseling away at our investment, becoming a smaller and smaller part of this. The large players are taking up all the space. It's also all these people have like huge like historical wealth, which they built up when they want to secure it in some way to a hard asset. And now they've all been learning about Bitcoin over this pandemic. And over some of the inflation fund, which has been out there. So whether that's true or not, they're going to start diversifying their portfolios into Bitcoin. That's going to push the price up to you, but it will take a few months to come into fruition, I think. Speaking of Saylor, there is actually a YouTube video on now, I think that from my Christrategies and it's literally titled, why Bitcoin is going to make you rich with Michael Saylor. They be pubs, they be. Yeah, I'll jump in real quick on two. So part of the whole premise of having a lot of people like, I don't want the large you know, fidelities of the world or whatever in. And I made this point on one of my previous I wouldn't call it podcast, it was just an open livestream. But the importance of having access for people that are not the day to day crypto folks like us, we get kind of tunnel vision right now because we're in the space. But I mean, I have a pretty large microphone's phone apart here. So I was kind of working on that too, as we're trying to make this point. There's a lot of folks out there that want to be part of this space that don't understand enough fundamentals, nor are going to take the time to understand the, you know, not your keys, not your coins. So they're going to rely on, you know, some of these institutions to help them take part of that investment. And if that's using a strategy of like a three to five year type of thing where they're taking two to five percent of their portfolio and just bring it in, they're the tools and mechanisms that enable that are getting set up and in place, right? So I don't think there's not about a question of if it's a matter of when those things are ready, um, moves like from the OCC given guidance for banks to become charters. And while it was paused with the new administration change, that's still a lot of momentum that's moving towards some discovery. It's not shutting it down. It's just saying, hey, we want to make sure Finra and all these other entities are aligned. Um, so again, pausing a momentum from a legislative side and from just a governance side that enables, you know, the common mom and pops that are not going to, you know, have hardware wallets and stuff, but want to take a, you know, a three to five percent portfolio adjustment into it. And when you start looking at the math on that, this is where you get the JP, uh, and, you know, if it's JP Morgan or if it's some of these other analysts that are working for them, they're looking at, you know, assets allocation, private equity, funds, and they're saying, if even a percentage of these folks had an enabling tool to take a position in crypto, right, wrong or indifferent, they just wanted a diversification on their portfolio. And the tools are there and they have the timing, which is usually during like an open enrollment when you're messing with your, your, uh, insurance and your 401k settings, that even a three to five percent allocation or even a one percent allocation when you look at a dollar money that's setting in those, those, that's like not, you know, money that you're getting that day, that's the money that's in here and accounting, you're just transferring that wealth. What's the winners and losers on that transfer, you know, they coming out of the 2040 fund that has a market basket and they're coming into crypto and seeing that, you know, the Kevin O'Leary and some of the larger CMBC personality saying, hey, I'm taking a risk of three percent and a three percent allocations are a good risk for us and the upside is potential is high because it's a pure supply-demand game on some of these things. They're taking risk on that and I, is that narrative starts to inflow to folks that have now the tool to walk in and just do the, I don't know anything about crypto, but I can sure hit this three percent and next, next finish, right? And then it moves that allocation there when that enablement comes in place, that's going to be the proverbial. I think Novigrat said it a long time ago, the herd is coming. I think that's when you actually see the reciprocation of that and those things are being built and it's like, I look at all these fundamentals and these charts and stuff and I'm like, guys, like the tools are being built to do this and then when that happens, you're going to see a pretty large effort and, you know, a signal to noise on that, like, hey, you can do this. You should have three to five percent, you know, from a risk standpoint and that just, you start looking at the money on that and the supply, it's numbers only go up on that standpoint. Michael, Michael Sayles-Won was, there's an ocean of liquidity out there which is going to flood into this pond of Bitcoin and there's some great custodial solutions out there now for people who don't want to hold their own, and it's found upon within our world. But there's some great custodial solutions out there. Multi-sake support is becoming ever more, becoming ever more better. So, and then when all those, all that liquidity comes into it and when you have big players with these huge bags like the Michael Sayles and they have that vested interest in the Bitcoin as an ecosystem and then all that investment capital then floods into all these projects, what's these, and again, you know, strengths as a project and the value proposition of Bitcoin. So now, yeah, more and more people definitely will be diversifying into Bitcoin. More more big players will be diversifying into Bitcoin. Well, and I just want to say again, what a complete reversal this is. How just a few years ago we were rat poison, you were going to lose all your money. It was a Ponzi scheme. It was a con artists. It was all a techno babble like it was designed to confuse you. All the things the Bitcoiners were saying were wrong. And now, like Michael said, they're praising us on CNBC. They're investing in Bitcoin and if they only put a small percentage in just like we've always talked about getting a small percentage of the gold market or maybe getting all of it, it will change everything. And like we're saying here, in a way that the markets won't predict, it won't go up on a nine. And then, you know, this investment fund buys 1%. It's going to go a lot more than a nine. It's going to break the little charts. And it's probably going to happen soon. But all the way to 11, all the way to 11, D miners, the saddest note there's ever been. But you guys do have to compete. I found it. It was in a box. I had to go look for it. But you now have to answer the question, will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Let's go to Dan Eve, crypto Raptor. I'm going to be optimistic and I'm going to say higher. And arc higher or lower. We said lower last week and the week before I think and we were right. So I think it's going to go lower, lower, lower, lower. But hold on tight because, you know, you know, hold on. And then within a year, you'll be back up. Don't worry. Ben the bear and now Carter higher or lower. I think it'd be higher. I'll take the opposite of that. And here we go against the ball. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? It's a very scientific process. It's probably more scientific than we realize. Most likely, most likely, the price will be higher than may be wrecked. Check out the WCN Clips channel on YouTube. We now have 50 subscribers. Join us at WCN Clips on YouTube for exciting clips like UK rules in favor of fake Satoshi, Jack Moller's Strike, combats, coin base and US urges L Salvador to be responsible. These clips and more at WCN Clips on YouTube. Moving on to issue three crypto scams. According to the Motley Fool, scams related to cryptocurrency and investing are in more common and making more money than ever before 2020 was a record year for investment and cryptocurrency scams. Almost 26,500 cases were reported to the government resulting in a loss of $419 million and 2021 is on pace to exceed those numbers. It must all be Bitcoin's fault. Dan Eve, why are there so many scams in Bitcoin's and altcoins and ICOs and brand new cryptocurrencies? Is it Bitcoin's fault? It's always Bitcoin's fault to a no-coiner. I think one thing that they don't do when they put these numbers down is compare to how much use utilization is going up, how many more people are using it, how much more, because the amount of infrastructure in 2021 compared to 2020, and the amount of services, the amount of things that you could usually be going for, where there's a lot more. You're probably going to have something more floating around. You're going to have more of the crime that goes along with it, especially if it's a new technology. I read one earlier about a guy in Malta who was in an investment scam, but he handed his phone to make a transaction. It was meant to be a small transaction. He was like Gossmaek when the person just swiped 700k and was just like, yes, could you? Unfortunately, you've definitely got to watch out for that if you've got a load of crypto that's that you're just Bitcoin's stored on your phone or whatever. Don't let someone else have your phone. But even in that way, I've seen an advert on us. An advert. Oh, it seems to have lost Dan. I know back. So they call it. It is. Go ahead Dan. Oh, sorry, Karyam. Oh, well, I know back in the day, they used to hand out a ledger at the San Francisco Bitcoin meetup, and they would braggingly say there's one million dollars on this hardware wallet, and they'd pass it around the room. And nowadays, I imagine someone palm it and swipe slide, slide of hand and then break it down physically and get inside there. Because everyone knows you don't let anyone take your hardware wall and outroom if you want to keep your money. Let's go to. Oh, so I was also going to say about that not just, you know, 2021 has been a year and 2020, you know, it's been a year of the scams increasing as they do naturally with usage and adoption. But if you think about the again, comparing it to other scams and other fraud and say, we've been in lockdown, like the number of delivery scams and tax scams, like it's just every five minutes. So I'd like to see the numbers on that. And you probably find that the amount of like delivery scams has risen way more exponentially compared to actual Bitcoin scams. And that's purely because of the scenario, the environment we're in now where everyone's using deliveries, more therefore, everyone's going to get the scam or deliveries. If you stare at QVC long enough, you'll eventually buy some cubic zirconium jewelry. But I've been buying mainly stuff on Amazon, but that's my own fault. Let's go to Ben Ark, your thoughts on crypto scams. There are there. People have to adjust to being digital native where there isn't all these protections that you had where, you know, societally in the past, you're now in the Wild West. And it's a lot easier to get scammed. It's sad because the people who really suffer and when there's these sort of waves of scams coming through are, you know, the people you don't want to suffer aren't they? They're ill informed. Usually the people who can't afford to lose their money they're losing. And that sucks. But yeah, I mean, it's a very arbitrary number. So I've no idea how these numbers are calculated because, you know, on-person scammers and other persons, gold miners, and they managed to pump their bags and sell it to somebody else. But I suppose if they're talking about sort of direct investing this, you know, cryptocurrency thing, or this is then an XB cryptocurrency, send me some of your money or send me your Bitcoin keys and I'll send you blah, blah, blah. Then it's very sad and it's just people are just, we just have to do more of a job to educate people on being very skeptical about anything, you know, which offers, you know, ease free and easy money. And then very sadly, you know, in this world of Bitcoin and some of these, you know, altcoins that, you know, that has to be some people have achieved that. They've, you know, invested very small amount of money in and they've achieved huge wealth. So they can use that as a historical reference and say, well, you know, if you invest in this thing, then you could also achieve this huge wealth and invest for people investing and they lose their money. So it's very sad, but we just need to do more of a job is, you know, as people have been around for a while to just try and educate people as much as possible of these scams. And then ultimately people are just going to have to learn like this is the responsibility of being digitally native, like you need to, you need to just treat everything with a little bit of skepticism. And that just doesn't just apply to, you know, Bitcoin and cryptocurrency, whatever, and all these crypto scams, it also applies to just differentiating between good and bad data, which a lot of people are struggling with. And that's why we see this rise of conspiracy theories and so on. But people will get better. It's just we've suddenly got this new data point when we get a lot of information and we're just able to have to differentiate between the bullshit and the good stuff. Human brains are very capable of doing this. But it will just take a little bit of time for people to learn how to, you know, how to exist in this new digital environment. It is interesting to have this kind of compromised position like Ben was saying where you're like all the new crazy scammy stuff is a scam, but the Bitcoin is okay. And all the new scammy stuff makes you lots of money. And the Bitcoin also makes you lots of money, but the Bitcoin's okay and the scammy stuff's not even though lots of people made money on the scammy stuff, but lots of other people lost money. So it's like a tough position to be here. It's like when someone asks you about Bitcoin, they try and explain Bitcoin. And then in the back of your head you're thinking I just sound like someone selling a Ponzi. I just sound like someone scamming like a scamming somebody and you have to stop yourself. It just sounds like you're pitching some sort of scam. You know, when you say to them look by 10 grams worth of Bitcoin and then hold it for five years, you'll probably be able to retire off that. I mean, that's a very scammy thing to say to somebody, but within Bitcoin, it's been true. And the technology is there and infrastructure and all the geniuses behind it are there, but it makes it so easy for these other, well, not projects to do for other, what would you call them, just these vultures to fly in and just to take advantage of that and try and hoodwing people into giving them money. I also want to forgive everyone because it seems like it would be real easy to convince your family and friends to get in a Bitcoin, even especially if you have knowledge about it, you've read a bunch of books about it, you're really in a Bitcoin, you're like, gotta get in, gotta get in. But like Ben says, invest 10k and retire sounds really scammy. And if you scroll back through my messages, I probably said that's my whole family and no one listened to me. So it's interesting to see how even with the best of intentions and the best of knowledge, you still sound like a dirty scammer. Let's go to Carter from Bitsby Tripping. Your thoughts on crypto scams. Is it inherent? Is it part of new technology? Or is it like Ben said, the people just want to get rich quick? Yeah, I mean, I think good money is always going to bring bad malicious actors. I think anything in general brings malicious actors and people trying to get one thing over somebody else. I mean, it doesn't matter if it's a MMO and somebody trying to steal your hard earned, you know, wow gold to crypto, right? It's the same kind of basic concept where somebody's trying to take from you. I think a lot of it comes down to education. The unfortunate thing with crypto is it's complicated enough that people will spend a certain amount of time on it. And you know, they take chances on the wisdom of the crowd type of thing. And that's why we see stuff like Safemoon and these some of these other obvious rug pull, you know, the sheba crowd people think critical mass will then run it up. And then somebody's going to be left with the bag, right? And you have these natural order effects occurring that are just kind of replicants of our society in the way we try together certain things. But, you know, trying to understand the fundamentals of a project and what what gives it some value proposition. Quite frankly, a lot of people don't, it there was a point in time where I think people cared about it. It seems now that it's all about because you have this like critical mass that puts a little bit of time into crypto. They gravitate. I mean, just look at the community sizes and like the sheep folks and you know, Dogecoin has a check mark and Bitcoin doesn't know, right? Like, I don't know, you know, still understand why Jack hasn't given, you know, Bitcoin a verified account. But like, I think it comes down ultimately down into education across from everybody to understand like, here's the things and here's what they're trying to do. And here's the risk you enter in this is like doing business like we were talking about earlier with China, like if you're if you're hosting in China, you paid some kind of collo. I've heard a lot of people that had some kind of collo deal with China and now it's shut down and they're not going to get their money back. It was kind of what you entered in. And so it's kind of like a disclaimer coming out with some of the folks with some of these obvious, there's obvious scams and then there's ones that look like they have at least a community behind them, but there's no real point to them. You know, of just educating what's the difference there and where do you ultimately want to, you know, have your money setting in? And you know, is it there's a lot of friends I've know that like, they've been around me. They've seen the mining that I mean, in mind you, I was doing this stuff. I was talking on Bitcoin talk in 2011, late 2010s when I created my account there. And like they've been around it since the beginning practically and some of them took a position, some of them were out in 2017, but they I still get the same actors, the same friends that have been around me of all people like that do this every day. And they're still like, hey man, what do you think about Safemoon? I'm like, bro, like seriously? Like, have you not been listening for seven years? Well, what I'm trying to tell you here and it, but it comes down to is like, you know, people go to chase that that the quickest dollar. And it's I don't know if we're ever going to change people from that. It's just more enablement from some of these services and people building, you know, like lightning and some of these other ancillary tools that get them to, you know, make Bitcoin sexy, make it easier to use and access and give it a value proposition that, you know, pushes people to to state to some of those projects. But it makes it hard when you have stuff like Ethereum with air drops, Uniswap doing air drops, you're like, this free money, like I haven't accounted to get money. That happens to be worth money. Getting, you know, these exclusive groups that try to get, you know, pump and dump and all that, you know, it's just there's so many scams out there in so many ways for people to take your money from it. And it's it's that kind of quick order effect like, you know, the generations that are really interacting with this when you look at like the demographics. It's like, it's the generation, it's our generation and younger that have had that click, click, loot kind of mindset from gaming and stuff. And I want the quick instant gratification. It really prays on that, you know, and that kind of ideology that maybe I'm taking this huge risk. But if I can get, you know, a 10X Robin Hood kind of style event, it's just going to continue to occur. But I don't think you break that in any way besides better better tooling, education, better interfaces and just, you know, a, us having conversations like this and hopefully people find it and it's interesting to them. And sometimes they find it after the fact, right? They're like, man, I got rugged and this will be the metadata inside this video. And they're like, us talking about a man, I wish we could reach these people and they're like, yeah, I got rugged. Now I understand, you know, and sometimes you got to get burned to to start to have a more appreciation to understanding and hopefully just don't get burned too hard. So it comes down to you. Although I do agree with you, I do think we need to make Bitcoin sexy. I'm reminded of the old joke about the stand up comedian where he does all this work and he becomes a perfect stand up and like Bitcoin does all this work becomes independent cypher punk, crypto, money, all this stuff. And they're like, yeah, but can you act? Yeah, we still got a chance you guys can push the thumbs up button. We got about 47 people watching us live, even if you're watching later, you can push the thumbs up button. That's how YouTube can tell good videos from bad ones, so just thumbs up all the good videos. Moving on to the exit question. This is a tough one. We're going to Dan first. Is it the responsibility of Bitcoiners to protect and warn people about these scams? I don't think it's the responsibility, but the good thing is about the Bitcoin community is that it's a community where people look out for each other. And although everyone rips on some of the funding like Schema scams and all that, you know, we ultimately we do realize that it's bad when people get scammed. And we don't want to get people getting scammed in Bitcoin because it can Bitcoin investment scams. We're almost as ripe as other, you know, shit coin scams. So I like the fact that the Bitcoin kind of community like cares for itself. It doesn't have to, but people don't have to and they're not obligated to, but a lot of people are really kind-natured and they do try to deter people from investing in scams and making them be a bit more vigilant. And Ark, are you your brother's keeper or is it enter at your own risk? I think it's a yes-no, maybe it reminds me that one of my favorite cities in the world is a place called Burn in Switzerland. And in Burn in Switzerland you can google it, there's this crazy river which is like an alpine river and it runs through the whole city at a phenomenal rate. And it's very shallow and you look at it and it's got all these swirling currents. It's sort of wherever you were told never to go near as a child. Well, in Burn in Switzerland, the crazy Swiss, they jump in that river and the users are full of transport. If you want to get like into town, you jump, you put all your stuff in like a waterproof bag, you jump in the river, you just fly really fast along this river and then you grab onto these as these bars coming off the side of the river which you grab onto and then you pull yourself out. And honestly, they're insane. I saw a pregnant woman with a dog like grabbing onto one of these bars and pulling yourself out of this crazy river. And I think in the UK that would be illegal. Like you wouldn't be allowed to jump in that river. But then people would and they would hurt themselves. When you walk along the path running alongside this river, there's just loads of really nice public information. So it's like, you know, be careful of logs floating on the river. When you jump in, it's shallow. So make sure you start kicking straight away. There's always great just information. So people are going to jump in the river but just do it safely. And then when you actually stood on one of these bridges about to leap into the river, the local Swiss people would be like, oh, make sure you do it this way, make sure you do it that way. So you have guidance just from, you know, the town which saves they've put up. And then you've also just guidance from the locals who also, so I think that's where we are like we should give people good information and they say to them, look, if you're going to do this, just don't put too much of a portfolio in there and don't go for something which is too scammy and don't think you're going to smoke the hope you're going to make, because the liens overnight take your time, blah, blah, blah. But then also, I think it is up to the role of society at large in governments to to so recognize as it's new asset class, which is very easy to onboard onto. And just say, look, you know, there are these risks attached to it. If you're going to do it, you can do it. It's fine. But just understand that there's these risk attacks attached to them. And some, you know, you really looking, need to look into the fundamentals of a project and how it works blah, blah, like, so just education from general society governments, whatever, but then also just from with it, you know, with each other, we can help each other. So I always think of that crazy Google it. It's insane. They're nuts. By the way, if you're having burn in Switzerland, there's an amazing bit for me. That's where I grew goal. We worked for our ideas from and did all the macaroon stuff. And they're nuts, but it's a great city. A very libertarian answer from Ben Ark keep the beach open. There are no sharks here. Carter from bits beachripping. Is it bit coeners responsibility to warn others and protect against scams? I don't know if I tied the direct responsibility to them more than they have an interest. They have a vested interest to make sure people understand it. I think it's in everybody's best interests. I mean, that's the last call the time like, why do you still make videos? I mean, you've been in this for a while for a long time mining and stuff. And I said, you know, I look at it as like a social responsibility to ensure that people understand from an observant report, how things work. I think as more people started to do, you know, start to do that, it does help the ecosystem. But I think it's also part of that evolution of innovation as we start to get better interfaces. We have, I don't want to call it rails, essentially set up to where it lessens that or creates a disincentive for folks to do a lot of these fraudulent activities. I mean, I'm more of a if governments and folks are going to be involved or large entities that are building on the Bitcoin blockchain that they build innovation budgets to de-incentivize the activity of what's going on. So instead of trying to create a whole bunch of regulation around it, which create essentially people that will just, you know, create other facets around the regulation to create innovation and incentivize activity for the opposite of that effect. To where maybe some of those would be folks that are going to go for the scammy side can actually say, hey, you know what, there's a there's a honey pot out here that if I just actually be a contributor in the space, I can, you know, take on some of that capital versus trying to scam people out of it. Give people opportunity to innovate it better. I mean, you look at how much money that is probably going to be spent by just the US government on this. I mean, it could be in the billions of dollars to create all kinds of regulatory framework where you could have a situation where you could say, you know what, how about we take about two and a half three billion of that, make it an innovation fund and now have a huge amount of capital out there for people to improve the ecosystem. It creates a different flip side of that incentive to maybe go maybe convince a handful of folks to not try to screw people out of it and say, you know, there's a lot of, you know, cheddar out here to go after and it allows us to, you know, have these innovation funds. There's the examples of this out in the space. I mean, the Air Force does this with something called Afworks out of Las Vegas where they try to get solicit small business to give them innovation stuff. You could be a business of one person and submit an idea to them and possibly get a million dollar contract where they'll have you, they'll help you source people and all that and that's just a person with an idea. I think investing in there kind of crawl walk running this ideology right now to try to get other innovation in the space. I think doing that will do more for the quick on ramps. I mean, you literally go out there, you register, you put forth an idea and you know, 48 hours you have a response, right? And I think that could be the pivot to where people start innovating, you know, kind of like a bug bounty program but without a lot less paperwork. And just, you know, attack it at its core, right? So, you know, disincentivize that activity from people, give people outlets. I think you're always going to have like a state actor issue with that where there's still going to be attack vectors and stuff for people. But, you know, I think it all comes back down to to give people an incentive not to, you know, try to screw people out of stuff by giving them a better incentive to participate. I mean, that's effectively what proof of work is, we're all fighting through the same kind of thing at the chance that we're going to win. I mean, if you think about proof of work in general, it's like a mind blowing like we're all going to compete on the same exact problem at the same exact time with the possibility that we're going to win, right? And I think that's a good format to understand like if you put the carrot out there large enough that people do a lot of crazy things to build towards that. And I think putting, you know, a large enough carrot out there to improve it would be, you know, at least, you know, measurably reduce the amount of negative that'll come onto it. And you'll also not put so much restriction that disincentivizes like good participants to actually participate in the ecosystem. So, I think it comes down to that and we just got to educate ironically not just the users, but we got to educate our governments to make sure that they understand that that's a better way. And don't turn crypto into like the war on drugs and spend a damn near trillion dollars trying to stop it. And now like almost every state opened up marijuana, which is should have happened years ago, right? So, it's just like, let's get to the means of the end. The music industry moved a lot faster with like the RIA, suing people back in Napster days. And then they were like, wait a minute, this text action pretty good. Let's make Spotify and all this other stuff. And now they're making more money than they've ever made. So it's like there's multiple examples in different, you know, vertical channels. If it's music, if it's drugs, if it's whatever, where they can lean in versus hold back. And then you're going to get a lot of the behavior that they're trying to stop ironically out of the system because the incentive is out there for them to for people to participate and not attack. That makes sense. Mining also seems like an evolutionary process. As you mentioned, all the miners out there competing much like all the sperm trying to fertilize that egg. There's only one winner. It's all or nothing. And they're swimming towards their target full speed. That's an interesting thing. I could just, I could see it. I could suddenly see it. But again, let's hope that's not happening. But going back to Bitcoiners, at the beginning, they did see themselves as kind of an anti-viral system for Bitcoin. They were trying to defend the space. They were very stalwart and they attacked every new project. Whether it was good or bad, whether they had good intentions, whether it was like an experiment, like, can we do this or whether it was, oh, yes, we can do this and we're going to make millions and billions. They attacked them all the same. But then I think people got tired of that. A lot of these projects were sincere. They did intend to experiment. Some of the experiments succeeded. Some of them failed. Some of them are still ongoing. So I think a people have gotten tired of that. But this idea, this idea that Bitcoiners could somehow protect the others. And that there is a simpler way and that you could just go with Bitcoin, still make a little money. But maybe it's not as risky. It's never going to work, right? That that pitch is over. People want all the money yesterday and they don't want any risk at all. And that doesn't exist anywhere, but they keep looking for it. And every time someone says it, whether it's a Shiba Inu coin or Ravencoyne or Dogecoin or whatever the new coin is, they always have the same kind of promises. And then we see in the end, if they succeed or not, there are so many coins that have been forgotten. Everyone pretends, oh, coins just stay around forever. You know, like coin, Ethereum, Worldcoin, Megacoin, Primecoin, Peercoin, Kiercoin, all these kind of things. They're all there. I'll still around, right? And then some of them aren't. You look at it, some of them. And it's not like it's hard to explain how a coin goes away. How if you had Megacoin in your wallet and you could send it to the other Megacoin wallets, but then one day, no one's mining Megacoin anymore. And you still have it in your wallet. You still have it. You just can't send it to anyone. So you can't sell it. You can't use it. It's delisted from all the exchanges. Pretty soon, everyone forgets it. And they just use it as a name to start a new coin. There's a new world coin coming out. So just ignore that old one coin. They've got a new one. Cardi have more on this. Yeah, it's interesting because I was actually talking with one of my friends that have had in the space for a long time, Bitcoin bin. And you know, we were talking about some old coins that you know, Aurora and a few of the other old ones that kind of just fell off. And we took a little experiment one weekend and we're like, let's see if we can find one that actually has no nodes online. Because I mean, I have a lot of the like a lot of the original like proof of work mining coins. I have a lot of those original nodes. And it's like, I haven't kept up, you know, them running. But like I was like, can we fire up a node and let's see if we can where it goes to. It is stop. Are we the broadcasting node? Are we the longest chain? Because if you're the only node, technically, that once people start mining again. So we did a local mining. I think it was like yaw coin. It was an example. And like we were the only node online. We started locally mining. And then we started moving the chain. And I'm like, you know, we could broadcast this as, you know, it was like a no pre-mino. It was a start, you know, I didn't have any of these coins. It was just like, let's fire this up. Well, let's see, we'll start mining. And then if we posted that on a forum, would other people be able to mine it? And it was like this little like weekend experiment with, and then we ended up seeing like three or four nodes pop online because people like, oh, you guys are running this and they downloaded it from us. And it was interesting to see kind of like a vampiric like resurrection of one of these networks and then how they started up. And you know, there are a lot of instances where coins have lost their either developer and then they've lost like their node structure. And so there's no nodes and then there's no miners. Even if a miner's locally mining, just the knowledge there, just the base knowledge to like make the export and go out there and find the GitHub and try to restart that coin. But I think that as things start to evolve and people start to have a better understanding, I mean, there's already colleges teaching cryptocurrency basics, right? So it's actually curriculum stuff out there to understand the basis of where cryptocurrency and, you know, blockchain technologies, what's the differences, which proof of stake, proof of work, proof of the last time, all the different consensus algorithms. As more people start to understand it, I can see a resurgence of the discovery phase of that. I see that whenever I post old content, sometimes I go back into like the 2012, 2011 content and I'll go to my repository for that and I'll post a screenshot with like the butterfly labs, you know, first launch of something mining and stuff. And the engagement rate that that gets and then the new people that come in that are like, hey, I've been studying this and I'm super intrigued on this because it's hard to find that content. Some of your old videos from like Mad Bitt coins, that kind of stuff. I think there's going to be an interesting resurgence just from a discovery phase on that. Where did these coins go? What was their value proposition? So yeah, it's interesting that you bring that point up because I think that's you know, from a historical standpoint, I think people are curious of how those experiments run and what what caused their their demise, you know, as it starts to go there. Well, and if pumping a dumping and dumping a coin on a market is like level one, you know, buying a bunch of it, selling it, whatever, what about getting a bunch of old miners, recreating the network, relaunching the coin? I mean, it's interesting to see Dogecoin because Doge is one of the earlier coins and because of whatever reason Doge has been summoned up to the top by Elon Musk. It could have easily been Feathercoin or Roracoin or Megacoin or Worldcoin or any of these coins he could have chosen. He says, Oh, I like that, you know, Feather mascot. That does it for me. So I'm going to adopt it. Yeah. And the same thing you could take Feather now. I don't know for sure, but as an example, a coin like Feather and you could get five or six miners you and your buddy and pretty soon you are the network and you're mining it and you can send it around between yourselves and it has no value and no exchange has it. But if it takes off, if it goes that way, I remember my friend retcraton did the same thing to Zcash. He edited Zcash. He took the founders or reward out. He put the code back out there because he's a coder and he's just kind of shrugs his shoulders. He's like, okay, that project's done onto the next thing and it became its own coin. Like you said, people just started popping up and mining it. They started editing it and improving it. And I think it's called Zcash or Zen or one of these things. It's hard to catch up on all these things, but it can just happen. He just published the code. I mean, he got super lucky. It was a good code and all that. But what happens when you have it? So I was thinking about like drive chain stuff. So if you have you know, Bips 300, that got in and then you just recreate Zcash and you just blind merge mine it. Then all these Bitcoin miners who are just running like it doesn't make any sense for them not to have that bit of software running as well. Like would that create a world where some of these, I mean, you could make any old experiment. And it'd be much harder to kill those alt coins, wouldn't it? Because these miners are just running anyway. These Bitcoin miners are just running anyway. And it's just part of their package mining software. Like would that post something of a threat in that like coins won't, that there won't be an evolution of coins where they just naturally die out if no one cares about them because they'll just continue to exist because the Bitcoin miners have been just being hard and by the Bitcoin mining network. Yeah, I mean, I think the ones that have done the merge mine there, they benefit from keeping the network. It all comes down to as the nodes up and is it, you know, so they had the consensus, but the being ran in that node, you know, is there a node network can people start to create other on ramps that are if they can't get on to exchange? I mean, one of the, there was a, a livestream that I did we were talking through some details related to like IBC. So it's like what Cosmos is trying to do from an internet blockchain of things, right? Where they want interoperability between all these different UTXO blockchains to EVM based blockchains like Ethereum, you know, forks that are out there and creating an interoperability to give an on ramp possibility for those as just other unique assets. They happen to be tokens on, you know, whatever network we, if we're using a feather coin as an example, to where somebody can create that kind of service registry to Feathercoin's node and now you can use YunaSwap to get Feathercoin, right? And it's like RAPT Feathercoin. And then overnight, you have all these like old school chains that now get like this kind of like like path we ribbon of beer, right? Like it was gone and then it became like the hip, you know, hipster kind of a nice, the renaissance of the else for sure. And then you have this resurgence because people want some of the old networks that had very deep rich, rich histories. Feathercoin was a very like grassroots rich history, you know, like one of the fourth or fifth, uh, I think it's the first out there. It was the first, wasn't it the first foot Bitcoin Feathercoin? Was it before? It was, it goes, oh, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, pure coin, name coin. And then I think it was, uh, okay, Feathercoin. So I think it was six. And then like Darkcoin, which ended up becoming dashed. But like I did a little cryptocurrency back in like 2014 or something on the channels like my eighth video, whatever. And I all, I gave homage to all the coins out there at the time. So that's how we go back to there. Like let me watch this again, because I did it in chronological order of release. Um, but, you know, like I can see that becoming a thing as more and more folks start to understand it. And I use that from a premise. There's actually a video that we have coming out today. I've a couple, uh, you know, younger guys are 17 or about to be 18. They help me do yard work and stuff out here. And they've been learning like I've been, you know, explaining like crypto and stuff to them. And it's interesting to hear their perspective and like the school's perspective and that kind of senior year this year of where people are trying to understand the crypto space and I was thinking, oh, they're going to be all doves or seaboo guys. But they're actually asking about like the history of like, what would it come from? And what were these other coins? And like, yeah, we're talking at it at school. What's pure coin? I'm like, oh my god, dude, I haven't heard that in forever. Like, so it's interesting to see and hear some of the, the youngest of generation coming up that's coming into the space. It's getting access to liquidity. And where they're trying to understand it. And is that going to be a thing that kind of merges the tech stack where you have like cosmos enabling those things to be able to be accessible from like the DeFi markets that are out there? Um, it's going to be an interesting thing. I mean, what is the use case that it's doing? And at the end of the day, it comes down to like, well, if it's accessible, why do people buy half the ERC tokens out there? Right? And if it's not trying to, you know, pump whatever or they're trying to provide liquidity to it, you can get into this weird conundrum where you have this whole DeFi marketplace that's enabling all these other tokens that never had any kind of thing, but they do have rich histories, you know, with a lot of, I would say, kind of OG crypto folks that may have small bags on or whatever that they get resurrected who knows. But yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing that that could be happening in the next few years for that. I can see people resurrecting that just from that whole thing. It was like, there was no, we weren't trying to resurrect like Y'all coined a, you know, try to do anything with it. It was more of like the technical exercise, like, what's the blockchain height is? And if we exceed what the last known one was, then we technically have the longest chain. And if other nodes come on and connect us, then that is the version of truth, right? Because it wasn't in any exchange and it's interesting from an experiment standpoint doing that with an older chain versus trying to just like, poppy code and create your own. Because you know, it already has some history out there. It's important to remember a feather coin. Feather coin was like the first community coin. And a lot of the ideas behind Dogecoin, like having fun and having a community came from Feather coin. Jackson Palmer, who later on said that and agreed that Feather had been a major inspiration when they were starting Doge. So maybe you guys are going to go Google Feather coin now. That's like, that sounds like fun. So have fun. Watch some Chris Ellis videos. But to go back to Ben's question, there is a main, there is a big advantage to being on a main chain. If altcoins of the future are attached to Bitcoin in some way and get the benefit of being mined by Bitcoin and perhaps even just forgotten by Bitcoin and Bitcoiners, they could come out really large in the future. I remember when we started Curio cards in 2017, we had the option we could have made a copy of Ethereum and had Curio Ethereum. And we would have mined it and we would have gotten all the coins and we would have been market makers and all that. But if we stop mining it, the project would pretty much go away. Like we could archive the chain somewhere and hope it comes back. But instead we released them on Ethereum as ERC 20 tokens and then the sands of time and NFTs came and went and all of that. And later on, someone went back in that Ethereum blockchain, you know, being led there by the breadcrumbs on the internet and they found Curio cards. So we benefited greatly by Ethereum still being here, still mining it, all of the things still generally working even for an old hacked up ERC 20 token NFT still functional. So if they had that same option out with Bitcoin, it could be an incredible advantage to altcoins of the future. By the way, everyone out there, you need to support BIP 300 DriveChains, go watch Paul Shultz on his talk at BitcoinMindMe. It's very good. All right, I think we have to move on to the next issue we got caught in the exit question there. Issue four, Ethereum Roundup, valid points, the fate of Ethereum miners when there's nothing left to mine. What happens to all of the miners on Ethereum when Ethereum switches from proof of work to proof of stake? And will this switch cause Ethereum to become the dominant store of value? Perhaps upon there on proof of stake and proof of work, Goldman Sachs and others are backing the Bitcoin competitor. Let's go first to Carter from Bitsby Tripping. What are your thoughts on the coming switch of Ethereum from proof of work to proof of stake? Will this make all of the current people who currently mine Ethereum? Will this come out of business? Yeah, no, spoiler. No, I don't think so. So I've done some pretty deep analysis on this. I'm actually in that article, I think, at the bottom of that article that that first one, Christina Kim reached out from CoinDesk to ask for some points on that. And what I effectively covered in there is there's, you know, I've done quite a bit of research on it, made that public. I have a huge spreadsheet to show various price discoveries that would need to happen to make up that, you know, Delta, when you look at the Ethereum network, there's really two sectors. There's the ASICs, F hash. And then there's the GPU side. The GPU side right now based on what's been shut down. We seen Ethereum peak at about 650 Tera hash. And it's setting around 490 Tera hash right now. And remember at 650 Tera hash, even though it was $4300, ETH price, if you take 650 Tera hash and look at $2,500, F price or $2,200, it's still profitable. So there was nothing that should have stopped the growth of it, continuing past 650 at about 750 at $2,500, it would become unprofitable, even at 2.5 ETH per block pricing. So what that shows is a lot of the stuff that's gotten shut down in China. It was about 220 Tera hash. And most of that being mainly ASICs. So that gives you the kind of scale and scope of what that was is about 35%, 36%. I think for a long time, we were saying it was closer probably 40%. Obviously those ASICs have proliferated not just in China. So there's still Ethereum ASICs out there. So when Ethereum moves, why is relevant? The whole point of me saying that gives you a dynamic of where that GPU hash rate is going to go. So if we look at 150 to 200 Tera hash being GPU, that's really the size of pi that's going to spread across the other networks. So it comes down to what are those other networks? Well, Ethereum Classic and Ravencoyne are the two largest networks that can take on that hash rate, at least at 200 Tera hash. Hash rate, it would make it unprofitable unless Ethereum Classic moves back up over $125 per coin right now, it's at about 35 to 40. When it hit 175, it actually had enough to almost take on most of that 200 Tera hash. And it's literally a simple math problem. If you look at Ethereum Classic at $175, look at Ethereum two years ago, what $86 rate. When it was $86, it was putting out right there at three coin, they went from the three coin to two coin hard fork. And when right around the same time that the price went down at $86 and people had to shut down and the network went down to about 160 Tera hash. So Ethereum Classic right now is showing you that it already can take on more than half of the Ethereum GPU network right now, setting at like $40, $40, $50. So then that means the rest of the half needs to come over to some other network or be spread across the other different coins out there. And I've done a pretty deep analysis on that. I took the top 25 hash rate, proof of work, networks out there. So that's a whole bunch of VTC, you know, vertical and all these different networks. And I looked at it proportionally if how much hash rate needed to come over to them and what was their price that it needed to get to. If you know something like Ravencoyne went to 51 cents, it could take on the entire Ethereum network of hash rate. If it sets at 25 cents, which it hit 27 cents in May, it could take on that other half that's required. So bottom line, the sum all that up is the two largest networks right now at their current price points are pretty close to be able to take on a majority of that hash rate as it sets. Now what the question is, what happens with that other 200 to 300 Tera hash of A6? That's going to be the pivot point of what network is going to fork back to F hash. So you have Ubic, you have ETC with their ETC cash are one of them going to fork back because they have the highest potential to gain all that ASIC hash power. That's where you have Lindsey and was at Lindsey Tech, which is in a silicon lobbying right now. You see that they actually have in this article that there are lobbying some of these other networks Ethereum cooperative, but ETC cooperative rather and a few other networks to try to lobby for them to go back to F hash. So then there's a place for those ASICs because there's a huge amount of investment in that. So it all comes back down to consensus. People are like, oh, that's like some kind of gaming. It's consensus at the end of the day. You want to have your best option, you know, your best amount of hash rate. So it really comes down to who's going to take back over to F hash and then who's going to take all the GPUs. So it's not going anywhere. How exciting for Ethereum classic to come back again. Just the original sin comes back to Rampantum, the fork, the fork forever. Dan, Eve, your thoughts on Ethereum and the possible upcoming switch to proof of stake. Technically, technically that surely F-classics not the original sin though because that wasn't the chain that was like rollback, right? And that's the same thing with the other chain, yes. So I think, yeah, so there'll be more sequence invented that are mindable, right? That there may even be like some, you know, some collection of, you know, miners, GPU miners who've got a big farm that kicked something off just to kind of compete with F classic and Raven. To bring a new GPU mining coin out there, that's definitely a possibility. It does seem like, I don't know whether AMD will follow Superd, like, you know, video, they're blocking or reducing limit of the mining now on the 36, 36 and TI, 37 and 38. So if AMD start doing that, that would be interesting for the playing field. But what does make me laugh was that going back on the shea recording, they launched their, they're like, de-stair, like, uni swap, cloning the other day and it started getting used. And everyone on Ethereum started kicking off because the chain was being used and it was slowing down again and putting transaction fees up. But it just seems like Ethereum's like that only chain where it gets where everyone starts to use it and people get pissed off, whereas every other chain, they're like, yeah, please use our to use our, we need to show that it's being used, definitely. But the flipening, now I don't think so. I mean, the DeFi craze has had an incredible meteoric rise. But, you know, I just think once you get DeFi properly on Bitcoin, then, you know, it shows over. And arc. Support bit 300, draw chains. So then you can have all this DeFi on Bitcoin or the shit coin, you can just go to Bitcoin and it renders all this stuff completely redundant because it's no longer a hospital and sand. The ETH2 switch, I looked at their proposal for the transition, it looks scary. It made my stomach churn when I was looking at the proposal for it. I mean, if it works, whatever, you end up with a proof of state coin, proof of state to me just feels like the same sort of neoliberal control we've always had, that the people with the bags control the money, you know, so very, very exciting. So, sadly, proof of work is the best solution. So I say sadly, obviously, because of its huge carbon footprint. And there isn't a better solution currently, so we just have to mind Bitcoin more efficiently. But yeah, I mean, it's a big experiment. The transition to ETH2 and all these minds are going to go somewhere. And I do think there will be something, another renaissance of the ETH classic. But, you know, maybe if the transition to ETH2 goes well, then people get all excited and stop pumping into that. But they've just got this crazy amount of like front end devs, which Bitcoin should have. But like, these people want to innovate. I've said that I think I said this in the last one is the last Bitcoin group that like Vitalik, he was a Bitcoiner, but he was impatient. Like, he wanted the promise of smart contracts and everything they can do. But he wanted it now. You don't want to wait until it, you came onto Bitcoin and it was developed in a, you know, slow, like, sober way. He wanted it now. He wanted to be reckless and he wanted it now. And that's where Ethereum came from. A lot of people did. And it's the same with, you know, C-Cash. There was certain functionality and they want it now and they can't wait for it on Bitcoin. But as Dan said, like it will all come onto Bitcoin. It's just a matter of time. The proposals are there. But Bitcoin developed slowly because it's very conservative in its development because obviously it's got this money at stake, whereas some of these other chains don't. But yeah, in the short term, I don't know. Maybe Ethereum could flip Bitcoin, but it doesn't matter because that Bitcoin is the Bitcoin's the network. The rest of them, it's kind of experiments and glimpses into a possible future that will exist on Bitcoin. It's just a matter of time until we get it. And if you're really keen on all this functionality, which Bitcoin has and got at the moment, then, support drive chains. It's 300. Just to build a little bit on what Ben said, a lot of the differences between Bitcoin and Ethereum come down to centralization versus decentralization. Centralization is a lot easier. It's a lot faster. It's a lot more controllable. Decentralization is a lot harder. It's a lot slower, but it's a lot harder to control. And from the beginning, Ethereum has made many choices that have led it towards centralization, the early pre-mind, given to their developers and their supporters, leading to a lot of people centralized holding the coin, the production restriction that they did favoring the people who would hold on to their early pre-mind. And now the switch from proof of work to proof of stake, literally favoring the people who have the largest proof of stake, the people have the early pre-mind, the potential for centralization in a proof of stake system has often been discussed as one of the problems. It seems as if proof of stake itself academically leads towards centralization and elite control, which are radically different ideas than Bitcoin. That's why the Ethereum Bitcoin thing's always been such a back-of-forth. They're all crypto currencies. They're interchangeable like clean up and days. But each one is uniquely for a different problem. Ethereum solves this problem of having smart contracts. Bitcoin solves the problem of internet money. So it's very different problems, but because they're in the same category, because they're all cryptocurrencies, they must just be interchangeable like toast. It's 100% like now on the head. You have Vitalik there. He's surrounded by all these second fans who are like, come on Vitalik, let's strengthen opposition, give us more power, give us more money. Obviously, the network is going to lean in that direction. Obviously, you know, you can argue the environmental concerns. People will, the proof of stake is so much more environmentally friendly, but you're just creating that same neoliberal control we've already had. So there's no point. Is that Vanguard, technocratic control, which doesn't exist in Bitcoin. And as soon as it does exist, it gets just attacked and decentralized out. So yeah, it's just a matter of time till all this functionality comes to Bitcoin. And I want that to happen, because honestly, I think Vitalik is a Bitcoiner. He edited Bitcoin magazine all these years ago. And he just wanted this functionality to exist. It didn't exist. And he had to move to something else as soon as it exists on Bitcoin. He was conflitting back with all those great front end developers on Bitcoin will be the richer for it. So only Nixon could go to China Carter. Did you have more on this? Yeah, I mean, I mean, if you look at even even Ethereum, you know, started with Charles Hodgson, Dr. Gavin Wooden and Vitalik and the who's the other guy that's always on there at the bald head. I can't think of his name. He's just the money guy of For Consensus. You know, that were the main core, you know, the financier and then the three developers. And those two guys, you know, left to make their own. And you have Polkadot with Dr. Gavin Wood. And then you have the Cardano with, you know, Charles Hodgson. And it's the same kind of story where people had ideas and they wanted it now. And they were like, you know, whatever, I'll just, I'll go build it myself. And they're competing. They're all competing. They're all competing on a platform. I look at, you know, Bitcoin's, and I've heard this from other folks. And I agree with it. It's art is in its simplicity. And it's refinement and design that there, it hasn't been a need for a lot of change when it comes to just the core operations of it. There is an existential thing that you can put on top of that to expedient, you know, some of the functionality add more features to it, but not compromise that that underlying structure that it has, you know, Ethereum trying to tackle something, in my opinion, different. The narrative is switching it to say, oh, it's ultrasound money. And it's going to take over this because that's the investment guys trying to make money on it, right? But the core premise of what Ethereum and Cardano and all those are trying to do or become platforms where you can build other stuff on top of circumstantially they have a token under it because that's the way the mechanics work. But it's became because of that narrative about money. And it's people posing like, hey, it's going to grow better and it's going to be the store value. That article it even says that it's a store value is nonsensical. It has no upper limit. It's made to use. It's made to be fuel. It's not a store value. Like by design, it's not a store value. You spend it to make things function. From a platform standpoint, I mean, there can be platforms that can be built on to Bitcoin. But I think these different change facilitates specific things that are more conducive to whatever their ideology was. And people will either build things on top of it. Ethereum just got that first mover advantage where all the developers came to it. I mean, solidity is language sucks. I don't know if anybody's tried to code in it, but it's not a good language. It's gotten better, but it's not one that you could create a lot of complexity with. That's why you have these other chains that have spun up and have, you know, Java clients, JavaScript clients, Python clients, those sorts of things to a lot more innovation on them. But, you know, I don't look at it as like, I can see from a premise of trying to build things on to Bitcoin to provide that underlying core structure and then that value proposition. But I think we're going to see even more competitors come out against, you know, you know, Ethereum and that kind of concept of, you know, the smart contract platform. And if that ends up getting hopefully would get built on to Bitcoin, that would be great. But I think that as that next series of innovations starts to come up, we see some of these younger developers cop and look at all of them and go, you're all crazy. Here's a better solution, right? And if that's going to come out with proof of work or has some kind of interconnect with Bitcoin, where it actually is using Bitcoin from consensus standpoint, but is providing a new way of value, you know, it's going to be a competition. It's going to be a continued competition under the same premise that we've seen from everybody that's forked off and done their own thing. I don't think we're that's that's one concept that's not going to stop. And that usually sometimes comes just from one argument, be it on Twitter or whatever. I mean, we're seeing that right now. I don't know if anybody's tracking some of the stuff with the MEV discussion on on Ethereum. But that's happening literally in real time with Hatsu, which is a researcher that covers a lot of Ethereum stuff got into an argument with one of the flashbot MEV folks. And it's turned into now where he's like, well, I'm going to create an offensive weapon for MEV. And I'm going to make it open source. And then we're just going to nuke Ethereum for more of it. And he's already posted it on GitHub. And he's already made it open source. He's going to keep it. So you're already seeing this kind of effect of how quick something can pivot. And I think that that still transcends down to new innovations in the crypto space. And we'll see. I mean, hopefully people choose Bitcoin. I think there's a Bitcoin has a huge advantage when it comes into from, you know, you have El Salvador making his legal tender. If you have other countries start to make it his legal tender, there's rationale for more functionality, but it's on top of it to facilitate, you know, higher speed transactions, that sort of thing. So Bitcoin has that advantage to where, you know, countries are choosing to use it as, you know, not just a store of value, but an enabler for potential currency. Ethereum isn't there yet, right? They're not talking Ethereum on that, right? They're talking Bitcoin. So, and it's the same thing that conversation with Janet Yellen and looking at ESG concerns all this up, they're not talking about Ethereum. They're talking about Bitcoin, right? So from a, from a state level, legislative level, large situational awareness level, we see our own congress folks in the US, you know, say, well, there's Bitcoin and then a congressman saying and everything else is shitcoins, right? I mean, I think you have that understanding that Bitcoin has a lot more, call it cloud or call it understanding that it is the foundation. And I don't see that interrupting anytime soon. So yeah, that article is crazy talk. Ethereum is not going to be the, the ultimate store of value. I think it's just, you know, corporate people that probably invested in Ethereum and saw if the message at 4,300 seen it at 3,500 and say, or 2,500 saying, we have pumped this up, my deads. Exit question, forced prediction, will the flipping occur? Will the price and value of Ethereum surpass the price and value of Bitcoin? Dan Eve, crypto raptor. I don't think so. Ben Arck. Sorry, what was the question? Sorry. Will the flipping occur? Will Ethereum flip Bitcoin? For what price? There's a lot of traction on Ethereum. People have built on these NFTs and things. But I mean, it may, but it doesn't really matter because, you know, it's, it's, it's not, it's been commented, it's not designed as a store of value. So ultimately, no, it doesn't matter. But it could potentially have more interest and high of value for a short period of time. Michael Carter. If you're talking market cap, it could, if there's more expansion on its underlying market standpoint, when it comes to like NFTs and the marketplace, stuff as a foundation, in Bitcoin and it has, you know, it's a singular UTXO store of value. Ethereum gets an advantage from its, its platform and the fact that it has multiple streams of potential income, uh, the standpoints from NFTs to DeFi, it's all that stuff and it being the underlying fuel from just a mechanical reason only. I think it could, um, because you could have that flipping, but from a store value, uh, no, because if you look at the base concept of that, you got to spend it. Why don't I want to have a token that's a higher value? And we see that already. When it went to $40,000, $100, Ethereum effectively stopped transaction volume, effectively stopped. People stopped transacting it because it was just too expensive. So only had wells moving in it. I think the use case out there showed itself there, um, that, you know, layer two, magic, that kind of thing kind of picked up a lot of that slack form, but, um, yeah, I don't, I don't think ultimately it isn't. Bitcoin wins it. The answer is maybe yes, because it's something that Ethereum people care about and Bitcoin, the honey badger just doesn't care. So if Bitcoin is not manipulating its network to make sure it's the most valuable in all these things, and Ethereum is, they just might take it. Moving on to issue six special bonus issue, the defense industry has started seizing Bitcoin being used by Hamas digital funds and digital wallets have been seized by Israel from the terror group, Hamas, presumably similar to the hack of the pipeline in the United States, where one of the servers belonging to the hackers was seized Bitcoin itself was not broken, but something we talk about almost every week is finally here. Bitcoin is being connected to terrorism. Ben, Eric, can we expect a quick clamp down on Bitcoin? All of the banks abandoning it, Michael, Saylor being hung in effigy, Elon Musk, transcendent and correct as now suddenly Bitcoin is terrorist financing. I mean, it's interesting going back to our previous topic on China. I don't think the US can ban something which China is also banning, like they can't share an enemy. So it's probably the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my friend is my enemy. Exactly. So if they're going to keep this kind of cold war, China narrative going, then they're probably going to have to like really big up Bitcoin and then not attack it for being the chosen value transfer mechanism for terrorists and drug dealers and whatever else. They're using it for remittance, they're using it to transfer funds because it's good money and it works, good digital transfer, value transfer and medium of exchange because it works. It's ultimately should be a selling point for Bitcoin really, the Hamas are using it. But yeah, I mean, there will be some affod around it because obviously, you know, it's about state, all states, really in control, which is very hard for them. And actually, I do think that this China-Food stuff is going to play ultimately in our favor because they're staking their flag in the sun and saying no Bitcoin is bad for us commies. And then for the rest of the free world, such as the US, then they're not going to be able to stake the same flag because of it. So, so it will be used as food potentially by some politicians. But I think generally, like people just understand it is a way people transfer value over the internet. When you watch these news programs now, over some ransomware attack, whatever. And this happened, the WannaCry, in fact, and I somewhere have a Reddit post, which is like, I always refer back to it for my ego. Somewhere have a Reddit post on the WannaCry attack on how I noticed at that point, the narrative wasn't, look, there's this evil internet money, which is allowing these things to happen. There was, you know, look, this evil thing has happened, and they used this internet currency called Bitcoin. And even recently, I watched a news article, a news video, I can't remember who I was. It's even a US, a US, sort of, right winged type news show thing on the internet on YouTube. But they didn't discuss, they didn't, they didn't implicate Bitcoin as being the problem. The problem, I think it was probably over the pipeline attack thing, that they talked about, you know, the attack being a problem, and then they used Bitcoin as just a transfer mechanism. So, yeah, no advertising, bad advertising, you know, I think it's just most people subconsciously would just understand that they're preferencing this value transfer over the internet, over other value transfers over the internet, because it's effective and it works. And I do think that the China furthest is going to ultimately play an off-aver in the West when it comes to, you know, the US not be not, I mean, if China would embrace Bitcoin, then the US would be like, okay, Bitcoin's for terrorists and for the colonies, and we don't want to use it, okay, and look all these suchful American countries that she's using as well. It's evil, it's clumped down on it. Whereas now it's like, what can they say, you know, like I have to embrace it. And then the the terrorists photo letting go so far. So, that's it. I think it's exciting. We finally bought the US and China together over their mutual hatred of Bitcoin. And I agree with Ben, it's interesting to see them go from because to end. This server was hacked because of the cryptocurrency Bitcoin to this server was hacked and they use the cryptocurrency Bitcoin. We're just a side player. It's no longer because the money was available that the hack was done. So they are getting a better understanding of hacks and how the world works. I'm sure they'll remember this for other issues and try to seek a nuanced perspective rather than just being superficial. Let's go to Carter from Bitsby Tripping, your thoughts on Hamas and Bitcoin terrorism. Well, I mean, I think I'm looking at it more, I guess, less cynical and just if there's funds and they can't use traditional finance because obviously the centralized banks can shut things down. It's a natural order that they're going to go to cryptocurrency. That's I think that if they're trying to raise funds in any way, we see that with just creators that have been shut down. That lose their accounts, they move to maybe some other like D2 or some other platform and then they're taking it, your other patrons get shut down. If you start to lose all that access, you're going to gravitate naturally to things that you have access to, which is going to be crypto. But it comes back to where these were the hot wall lists are stored and is this complacency? I don't think the article explains how they were able to get that. I don't obviously think that it was cracked or anything like that. It was that they got a hold of these hot wallets maybe in seizures or whatever. And I think it's just it's probably being played up because the crypto is part of that crypto in general right now is a hot topic in world news in general. So it happened to happen and it was crypto. So now it's a headline. But I think you're going to see more of that to where the sophistication of the enforcement is going to be at a level as they understand more of where to go get it and how to seize it. You're going to see more of those articles to where it's going to be harder for those things to transact. Additionally, the second order and third order affects when they're trying to use that currency in places and then leaning on those folks that now cross those honeypots. You're going to see more of that. So it's going to lead back to where the source of the crypto came from. Again, it's showing that it's it's good money and all frameworks, including enforcement. So like the I don't look at it as like any kind of like bigger issue than that. I think the media is going to make it a bigger issue that now this is another funding source that they're shutting down. But you know from the US coming outriding and trying to ban I mean that's that's one of the fortune things of living in the US and having the rules and the guidance that you know having three branches of government separated in the way it is. Is that even if the federal government came out and tried to quote unquote ban it. It doesn't work that way without a state level that they can put a mandate out there and then the states will look at it and go yeah cool cool story man we're not going to do that. And you see that right now even which is like the drug site. I go back to like marijuana right it's federally illegal. But at a state level it's not in certain states and it's just the way our government structure is set up and it has a lot of flaws in it but when you look at this the basic premise of the way that structure is we the folks that live in the US benefit from a lot of that kind of diversity of structure. And I think you know that's going to play out probably in the US at some point to where you'll have even the strongest opinion against crypto. Especially if something terrible happens in the world and it was financed by crypto which is still I think one of those kind of elephant the room probabilities that if something substantial happens and it was enabled because it was actually paid for by crypto because all the other facets were shut down. You know that could be an attack vector in the space of saying well this is why it happened. It's like well you know cash also could have happened too right but it shouldn't that shouldn't be just like some of these stories where there's the the large hack that just occurred over those weekend where there's 70 million dollars or the crypto being asked for by you know a hack group that's allegedly in in Russia. The story isn't about the hack right the story is about crypto and it's like dude that's just what they're trying to get paid in like the problem is is this SaaS that was used by several companies to manage our IT framework was exploited at the supply chain level. That's a huge issue like we should look at the cyber security side of that and look at their processes and stuff like that as the premise of what the real issue is and have nothing the fact that they're trying to get paid is just circumstantial right for their efforts. It comes back down to again to core cyber security issues but it's it's another example of where this crypto this misinformation or of understanding like what's important in that messaging is being focused on the crypto side which it really shouldn't be it should be on the cyber security side in that instance with like this homosting in general it's just again being glorified that that's where where the where the stories at where it should be more towards around what the real root issue is so I think eventually people will just get kind of tired of hearing the crypto side of it and especially if you're a business being hacked you could care less the fact that they're getting paid in crypto you're going to be calling up the company going why the hell was I hacked right you you don't care about the crypto side so I think it's just going to it's going to come around maybe if the media companies get attacked like that in some way they're going to be talking about the risk of cyber security and open you know closed source software issues and supply chain and the crypto issue. There reminds me a lot of something Andreas Antonopoulos used to say I'm not sure he ever wrote it in his books but he used to say if your currency can't be used to buy hookers and blow it's not very good currency Dan Eve your thoughts on Hamas and Bitcoin terrorism. I think I think Michael made a really good point there about the fact that if it's a huge event like if it's a huge event that's the big if it's like a 9-11 style thing that's going to be where the big problem is like where it gets it's on the map where is this they're kind of pretty numerous now that I mean we shrug them off you know because we we see you know all the reasons behind why it's not actually such a problem you know the pipeline was solved really quickly why is that so quickly well because Bitcoin is not completely anonymous like everyone thinks it's sued anonymous so so that was a learning curve for certain people and these stories are going to are going to fizzle out because it's going to be a null issue and people will focus on the fact that the bad thing is the bad tech that's governing your your company it's not the fact that Bitcoin's being used and we've said this before it could be goats it could be not that goats is a coin but you know it could be could be goats there are a lot harder to transport there's there's not infinite goats they probably could you know depending on the size of the planet and stuff but but regardless it's just a means of it's a value isn't it of being able to extract from someone by pulling you know pulling into a ransom the important thing is that the tech is is a lot more secure and people more wary of security around technology and especially over the internet because of data literally you know the fact that it was it was a common what what coin it was the other day they kind of they asked a question and someone said I was there's what was the most biggest event or something and they said oh what perhaps it was we were seeing my name and address from the data from the data league from your website you know people are more concerned about their data and their information now we're taking security a lot more seriously but yeah I think ultimately it's no more threat than than it has been before it's yeah it's just the fact that Bitcoin is the big you know talking point at the moment because it's just gone through a massive pump and yeah I hope that it just doesn't get used in a in a kind of a huge event but if it does and they say ban Bitcoin then stumble will use banana they use something else they'll be there will be something else they'll be whack them all but with different cryptocurrencies and that would just be an endless cycle until it's accepted and until there's good enough infrastructure built around it and you know but dare I say more services like chain Alice niche for catching the ransom people when they do ransomiers people well if there's a your event in terrorism I hope they do use Bitcoin well I think we're seeing already a kind of a I would call it a front-running of the mindset at least in the the government read legislation side of it because we just I don't know which representative it was but I was given a clip that you know he's like going back I think it was one of the security hearings and he was like you know 99% of the crypto or 99% of the cash transfers for at least elicit activity goes uncought you know and it was like at the counterpoint to them about you know on the crypto side of where at least they have telemetry and forensics and it's all about behave you know looking at good behavior versus bad behavior and that's not like looking at even like taxations or anything that has to do with more civil type of issues I'm talking like bad things bad people trying to harm people usage and you know where crypto has at least a trail and why didn't get it right maybe before it or during it there's still a lot of forensics that can go on the backside of it and even on like privacy coins and all that kind of stuff when you still have you know a debit and a credit somewhere you can start to still trace where certain things and assets were bought and stuff like that there's it's not why it gives you that level of privacy in between the same thing with TAPRU. That's why I think you're we're seeing the maturity in general in the space not just from the governments but maturity from the technical side where we didn't see this huge uproar about TAPRU about like oh you're gonna you're gonna cause all this issue and all this innovation is gonna get shut down because now they can't see certain in-flight activity right and what it really comes down to is they understand the UTXO you're still gonna have a debit and a credit on both sides of it what happens in the middle it's actually a good thing to have privacy of calls it's like why we can make a point to point call and we don't have everybody just listening in all the time right you have still some level of anonymity on that conversation and that we can have a transaction that can have some you know obfuscation to it it doesn't completely you know shield it from not being able to be still discovered you know from an input and output standpoint there's still telemetry that can be garnered from it so you're seeing some maturity I think in the space and on the telemetry side too that they're saying you know hey yeah this this creates some complexity in the middle however of the things that we really care about at the end of the day from the transferring from entities and stuff we still have now enough understanding that from a discovery standpoint we can still find things that we need to find and that's why you're not seeing this huge push on TAPRU TAPRU doesn't even really been brought up in the conversation short of the fact the acknowledgement that it's a thing and it's moving forward but from you know the risk and the government and all that stuff bringing it up I haven't seen anything come out heavily on it and you know even security experts out there freaking out about like oh this is all going to be hidden and now we're not going to catch anything in the same reasons why we don't see a huge amount of noise unlike Monero and you know you got your outlier folks that are out there like oh it's been cracked for years they're just you know they're sitting there watching all the transactions I mean there's no proof of that but it's also not upsetting the balance of you know sort of a few comments every once in a while that you'll see an uninformed people that may get on to a you know congressional hearing or something that and they just talk about crypto being obfuscated and they can't see anything or something of that effect that they're not really read in yet but you know I'm not worried about it in the long run I think that it adds a lot more value at it into the ecosystem and makes people more transparent I'll bridge part of that to also why I think we haven't seen the Chinese government or any of the other governments come out with their own stablecoin yet because when you start looking at like this is me kind of put in the architecture hat on when you start looking at the second and third order effects of that if you have a country that likes to manipulate its currency even if it has a centralized currency that it whole sell controls when you start looking at like how stablecoins connect and you're going to have third parties that are going to be using said stablecoin even in a centralized way they're going to have nodes so like if you're going in and manipulating your nodes and all those second and third order effect things that you've connected in like service registries and article services and all these other things that make the smart contracts work you can't go in and start manipulating your currency because you're going to start breaking all the nodes and you're going to break all of them and you know they're not going to be fully coordinated right because it's just the complexities that we have in the typical centralized world where you change an API it's going to break somebody downstream so you're starting to see as they map those out and map out those stablecoins and look at like well well yeah we'll use this is a better innovation and then they start looking at some of those use cases where they're going to make changes or potentially you have to manipulate something that they just can't do it like they can do right now behind the covers that it's transparent even a stablecoin that's spun up by a government is transparent at least internally to and all those other people that they're having an effect to that are going to be receiving that downstream or any other participants that are going to be processing it are going to have nodes that are going to they can't go back in and reorg they're going to be like wait you're breaking all my stuff here because you went and then just change like supply numbers and stuff so they have to do an append only log just like everything else and it's going to have to have some kind of accountability like in a cruel so you know you're starting to see it's going to be fun to see when the first which entity first creates that which treasury which government treasury actually does that because it's going to be even be in centralized it's still going to have some level of you know accountability that's interesting because I always think with Bitcoin like you know even though we have all these coin mixes and other options whatever in eastern work towards their knowledge proof and just ultimate privacy just just to get the fungibility because you don't have fungibility unless you have that when you when you scale up and if you don't have fungibility then it's not a good medium of exchange so I think with all these like state actors it's all about control and like I was saying in the last topic with the China just opposed with the US and the US can't you know not like something which the Chinese also don't like because they don't you know they can't agree on something but actually it does expose that Bitcoin is primary use case which is to disrupt their control of a monetary supply and disrupt state control is affected by by Bitcoin and that's why the US wouldn't like it just as the Chinese wouldn't like it so actually for people maybe it'll be it'll make them aware that you know Chinese government hasn't got that much there's not much that much difference with the the US government you know it's they don't want to they don't want to relinquish that control and they're going to fight to the death to keep it but you know with all this chain analysis type stuff scares me and I think ultimately we need to move towards their knowledge proof and and if you want to reveal yourself then that's an option but the default should be that it's completely not to leave private and it's possible but something Bitcoin needs to develop and get better out double muted all right moving on to the exit question clash of the Titans heavyweight championship fight what's the worst fud for Bitcoin is it Bitcoin and terrorism or Bitcoin and energy usage Ben Ark it's gonna be Bitcoin and energy usage that's gonna be I mean it's valid you know we have a big carbon footprint on transactions so technology you see it's to get better and it's a good it's good use Chinese the Chinese mining fleeing filling China and all that cheap government subsidized coal power is good and yeah we'll bring that percentage up for renewables mining Bitcoin which is a good thing and hopefully incentivize renewables but yeah it's gonna be it's gonna be the climate change stuff and maybe not terrorism but I do think that you know with the stuff which is going on our Salvador that's gonna really ruffle the feathers of the US and their control of Central America and they may spin it in some way and they'll use whatever is it hand you know terrorism environmental stuff but and if they do play the you know we should clamp down on Bitcoin then hopefully people will realize that it's for the same reason that the Chinese government want to clamp down on Bitcoin running out of time crypto raptor terrorism or energy use which is the worst fun for Bitcoin energy use by far it's such a massive topic you know and and it was the thing that that knocked the whole you know knocked up musk off is it's Bitcoin pedestal you know when he when he sort of pulled Tesla back from you know from accepting Bitcoin so I think it's very topical and it's gonna be here to stay and you know think it's across we're just not gonna see like shitty terrorist attacks happening that would make Bitcoin the ban for that reason so yeah I think it's climate change unfortunately I can't believe what I'm hearing surely someone must think about the children a Carter from BitzBee tripping are you gonna go with them go with the energy usage over the terrorism yeah yeah it's for sure energy use mainly because it's a direct order effect right it's it literally is connected to Bitcoin uses energy it's directly connected and what that energy mix is is right now a current very hot topic and you know we know the back-end effects that it naturally will go to the most cheapest energy and what that is but energy directly the terrorism piece why it could be pushed heavily to be an enabler or that that's not the first order effect of it that the the act is the issue right with that so it could definitely be a tag lag like we're seeing on all the rest of these things but people are gonna quickly not care about how it was financed and why it happened and why it wasn't prevented right so that that's the thing with like you know any a large event like that it's it's not how it was financed right so it's definitely the energy thing will will be it's it's a keelies for a bit but I think there's a huge amount of effort right now to to fix that and just uh you know even if it's costing people more money and it's the better thing to do um it's gonna be that and then the follow-in behind that spoiler or it is gonna be it's even if it's a hundred percent energy renewable it's gonna be still like why aren't we using that for other things why is it used for Bitcoin right now that we were producing all this renewable energy um so that that's gonna be probably the follow-on to it once it's a hundred percent I think there's always going to be people that are gonna be uh just looking at it and because that number is big they're gonna have a concern with it even if it's a hundred percent renewable right it's just like well why is it using all the world's power you know at some point you know right you know like it's the 80 percentile of all power used or something so um yeah I think that's gonna be a bit that's an excellent point Bitcoin can exist without energy usage but terrorism can exist without Bitcoin so they're not directly tied uh we're running out of time we're moving to predictions or story of the week Dan Eve are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week go ahead some of you get this it's coming home I think that England may actually win the euros and I will be watching it and uh yeah so think fingers crossed because England doesn't ever win anything it's pretty lame that's what they're saying on the internet the best part about the slogan it's coming home is that they've never won before then arc a similar soccer prediction from you I mean hopefully it doesn't um because I despise soccer and all spectax sports because um yeah but um uh what was it gonna say yeah the problem with the the soccer the the the Britain winning is it just kind of like reinforces the whole Brexit thing like we did well on the vaccine roll outs and that's kind of pumped on you know the Brexit is and so will the Bitcoin Britain winning the the football as well uh so that'll be a sad day for his anti-Brexiters but now prediction story it's so story of the week is there's a guy called Chris who's developed a discord bot for um it's like so say if you were a discord server you can connect he's built an extension in a lot of bits um and you can connect that extension to your discord server and then uh people can have wallets and they can send values to each other just through like uh IRC backslashes which is super cool um and um yeah and then they've got wallets then which they can access and they don't want on an element bit server somewhere so honestly I've had a few like chats just chats with people like real life chats vocals um zoom calls with some of the the developers lurking around in the element bits telegram chat and it's going to be so flipping bullish that they're just really interesting capable people developing interesting cool things and uh yeah Chris is one of the people developing one of those things so check it out this week there should be some demos on will corrupt a network on how to sub this discord bot if you've got um discord is amazing as well I don't know why I don't use it and why I'm still stuck on telegram it's so good um uh but yeah check check check check it out and it'll show you how to like if you've got a discord server and a community of people on there then they can start sending values to each other and um we did also discuss like maybe if you had like a percentage fee so as the administrator it could be like a nice passive income uh in a way which isn't gonna hurt people like you if I send Thomas a thousand sats maybe I'll get a sats just because I'm running that server uh so it could be quite a nice way for people to stack some sats in a passive way uh so yeah just stop that I haven't got demo but that check it out this week should be coming out should be cool very cool also uh Michael from BitsB tripping prediction or story of the week go ahead yep uh the story of the week so far of what I'm tracking right now is that kind of uh inner argument that's happening right now on the MIV side I think it's it's gonna be interesting now that we've got a really motivated flash bot person in there trying to uh create some uh some chaos there um I think it's a topic that that actually transcends the mining so when it goes to proof of stake this is still gonna be a thing um validators writing scripts to try to arbitrage for earn each other it's kind of just what the ecosystem that the Ethereum's unfortunately built around it um when it comes to front running and just the the advantages in that space so uh that's gonna be a close watch I'll be tweeting kind of uh the the consumable version of that story as it were uh as a lot of technical uh conjecture is going back and forth so um yeah it's gonna be fun to see how that that shakes out because it it's just a thing that that it that's you know taking the story right now very cool and uh be sure to check out michaels youtube channel bitsBit tripping uh one of the oldest maybe the oldest Bitcoin mining channel and Ethereum mining channel and all that in existence so very great channel uh thanks to 2013 man in the age of mad bitcoins indeed indeed and uh if you guys got some extra cash check out shop.worldcryptonetwork.com we've got some mugs and some t-shirts I've got the uh how Finney mug right here myself it's really cool uh you can celebrate how Finney with a how Finney mug and help support the world crypto network at shop.worldcryptonetwork.com we're running out of time it was a long episode today thanks to everybody who stuck with us till the end i'll be sure to give us a thumbs up put some comments in we had some great comments last week we kind of had a left versus right socialism versus a capitalism argument and it exploded outwards into the comments so i hope you guys will do the same this week find something that interests you and try to have a discussion about it in the comments right here on the world crypto network that be fun so thanks so much for joining us until next time bye bye