#229 — The Bitcoin Group #229 - Bitcoin Seized - $250M MicroStrategy - Asteroid Mining - Defi Degens

The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists. Ben Arck from BTC, IoT. Shwail. Martin from General Bites. Hi guys. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one. Issue one, US, CES's Bitcoin said to be used by finance terrorist groups. ISIS and other groups openly solicited virtual currency donations because they mistakenly believe that the transactions would be anonymous. Officials said. Of course they didn't actually seize the Bitcoin as Bitcoin cannot be seized, but they did take control of it. The United States government says that it seized about $2 million in Bitcoin and other types of cryptocurrency from accounts that had sent or received funds in alleging financing schemes for three. Foreign terrorist organizations, Al-Qaeda, ISIS and Hamas' paramilitary arm, the Al-Qasim Brigades. Law enforcement officials said they obtained court orders to seize around 300 cryptocurrency wallets held by bank-like institutions. They also blacklisted privately held accounts containing several million additional dollars of virtual currency. Ben Arck. What do you think about the United States seizing Bitcoin? In the great scheme of things, it's not that much Bitcoin to be found. There's 300 cryptocurrency wallets, bank-like institutions with 300 cryptocurrency wallets and a range of different coins. What does that mean? It's a sort of poloniac thing. What is a bank-like institution? Is it an exchange? That's what I couldn't crack. Like Coinbase for terrorists. Maybe there's a special exchange for terrorists or something. It's not that much. It's not really a remarkable amount of money. Particularly, it's dwarfed when you think of HSBC in 2012 when it had its $880 million worth of cartel money which they laundered. It's not really a reason to go after Bitcoin in general. There's something which these terrorist organisations use. Inevitably, it will be used for trying to get funding for terrorist activities because it's good money, which we all know. They obviously didn't use it properly because if they did use it properly, which is terribly hard, then they wouldn't have been able to seize the funds. There was this also in the article that was at a part where it said about blacklisting accounts. I was unsure whether that would meant blacklisting accounts on Polonia, Blacklisting wallets or coins or trying to blacklist Bitcoin. But obviously, if it's Bitcoin addresses, they're trying to blacklist. You can run it through coin mixes. To me, I've always been an advocate that we need to move towards as much as there are knowledge as possible and make Bitcoin as an ominous as possible, which I think will more and more come to the forefront of Bitcoin discussion as time wears on. I know Trace Meyer was a great advocate of that as well. A bunch of other sort of Bitcoin or Piawola was one I heard speaking, Kerr's communication, Congress on that subject and how Bitcoin needs to be as ominous as possible. To the point where we shouldn't have to use coin mixing services. But for now, Coin Mixing services, they fulfilled that niche. That's okay. They're using it because it's good money. The real danger is that anti-terror laws can be used to just seize Bitcoin from people. But then again, if people are holding their Bitcoin properly, then it's unseasable. It's just a small amount of money. It's not too much money. For the intelligence services and for the people who seize the funds, it's like a trophy. I imagine that they were fairly amateur users of Bitcoin or whatever else. Most likely just some kids working for these terror groups that are playing on the side playing on their phones on some exchange trying to make some money. So it's kind of an remarkable amount of money. But again, it's another nod towards why do people want Bitcoin? Why would terrorists use Bitcoin? It's because it's good money. So it appetizes that. It does advertise. And that goes right into what I was going to say that this is a success of Bitcoin's marketing and a failure of the terrorist's researching arm. They thought that Bitcoin was anonymous. They thought it would all be fine. And then the government traced all their transactions back perfectly. They can probably even identify the donors. As we've said before, many people were worried about Bitcoin and law enforcement. But the way that Bitcoin was currently set up, you could actually trace really easily. You don't even need an advanced law enforcement computer. You could just use blockchain.info and click through the transactions. So major failure by them. Although I agree with Ben, it wasn't a lot of money. It is another though feather in their cap, a success that they can claim, especially a success in the dangerous world of cryptocurrency and cyber hacking. It really shows that they're on top of their game. They're doing a great job. I feel very safe. Martin. Yeah, we all feel very safe. But when I read the article twice and it says, the title is the US CIS Bitcoin sets to be used to finance terrorist groups. But then if you read it, it just says they had obtained court orders to seize about 300 cryptocurrency wallets, which I think means 300 cryptocurrency addresses, held by bank-like institutions, whatever that means. So they also blacklisted. And I think the blacklist is that they just used this, what's it, OFAC designated nationals list. Because they're also in addition to that maybe blacklisted, let's say companies like Cybertraise or Chain Analysis, so that whenever they are trying to cash out these coins on a reputable exchange, which obviously will require KYC AML before they will allow a bank withdrawal, they will be flagged. And they're already flagged. So as Ben said, it's just a matter of running it through a mixer a few times. And then it will be impossible to trace, except that if you run your coins through a mixer, this is also feasible. So a reputable exchange will ask the end user, why did you really feel the need to mix these coins? So they're tainted. And I agree with you, we need a, it undermines the principle of Bitcoin. It's like, imagine if you can't accept dollars that have previously used by drug dealers, then most 100 dollar bills will be, you will not be able to use them. Because in the 80s, they had this research and they said almost every 100 dollar bill had traces of cocaine on it. So that means that you wouldn't be able to accept the money and you can't see as an end user whether the money, whether the Bitcoin you accept is tainted or not. So I do understand that exchanges will, we'll check quite possibly ATM operators will check too. It's not that they are really curious, but they have to be compliant. And I think it's, they're making a big thing out of it because it never happens. Like when they catch a hacker, they make it into national or international news. Why? Because all the hex that, or websites that happen, they're never in the news because they never find the guy that did it. So this is, it's a bit sensational article. I think for the New York Times, I really expect it better. It's, you know, it's, it's good that they keep an eye on it. I think we should, you know, we should try to avoid that our, our favorite cryptocurrencies being hijacked by unsavory individuals. But then, you know, one man's, one man's terrorists is another man's freedom fighter. So, you know, and, and, and okay, these were really dubious individuals. I mean, it was for ISIS, I believe in Okdas. So nobody wants to deal with them. I think they just lack less the addresses. They didn't really get any bitcoins. They just try to, you know, make them impossible to cash out. But as Ben said, there's an easy way around that just by running them through a mixer. And then they'll probably be, you know, baby salt, do an OTC deal, not fire, an exchange, not fire on ATM. So yeah, it's more sensationalist than anything really happening there. You agree? I agree, Martin. And I also think that they didn't actually seize the keys, but they like to say that they seize the keys. And it's a good point on the way that they couldn't really cash out through an exchange, much like the Twitter hackers that we just talked about last week. They wanted their money. They wanted it now. And they were trying to cash out the bitcoins through Coinbase, of course. And again, it's just this, this rush to get it to cash keeps catching these people. But I do agree that Bitcoin users should have a better expectation of privacy and something that should be fixed in the future. But it is a glaring hole right now. And most Bitcoiners know about it, but apparently terrorists don't. So let's keep it on the down low. Let's not tell them everyone keeping quiet out there. Don't use Bitcoin for bad stuff. It's obviously traceable. But we all know that. Let's move on to the exit question. Will we see more or less stories like this in the future as Bitcoin becomes more and more accepted? Will it just be terrorists use money? Terrorist steel money? Government ceases money? Or will we continue to freak out because it's internet cyber money? Ben Arck? Yeah, you're right. It'll detach from the story. So just be terrorists, fun, seized. In fact, that will be a great day. And there's universal coverage of a new story where instead of terrorists, you know, intelligence services or whatever, they seize terrorists, Bitcoin or they just say they seize terrorist funds and then the funds happen to be in Bitcoin. That means the Bitcoin is really, you know, supplanted itself as a, as a, as a, just a, a store of value and it's not something which people consider to be part of the story itself. That will happen. Martin. I think one big Bitcoin picks up again. It's slowly creeping up again. We'll see more of these stories. Journalists just love, you know, putting Bitcoin in the spotlight in a sensationalist matter, you know, like the Twitter hack. They were a Bitcoin scammers that hacks Twitter. No. They were Twitter hackers. So it's the, usually they use Bitcoin in negative pop lights. And I think they just do that because they want to have some clickbaits on the websites. So yeah, there will be more. I do agree. I agree with Ben. It's something to be hoped for that someday we'll get to this point, but we're clearly not there now. Of course, I want to harken back to what Andreas Antonopoulos said so many years ago. If your money can't buy hookers and blow, your money isn't very good currency. And that that's why Bitcoin's good currency because you can buy what you want. And there's no differentiation in what you want. I mean, it's better if what you want doesn't hurt other people. If it hurts yourself, it's your own choice. So on and so forth, libertarian ideas, but that's what Bitcoin is. You can spend it on anything at least. I'm on the, I actually brought up Andreas and dressed at a great talk and it was on there's a there was a case in Scotland. Pretty sure it was in the 1800s or something where they were all kind of revolved around the idea of tainted money. So money was used for something illicit and then somebody had the money then took this guy to court and said that these this this this this money is illicit or something and it's it shouldn't be able to be used or something like that. And the court decided on the side of money and said, no, if we want money to actually work and work properly, then we can't taint it just because what it was used for at some point in the past because we can't we have we need fungibility, fungibility, trumps, everything else. So as Bitcoin becomes more dominant, I think that that that kind of philosophy and that's why you know, the dollar dollars aren't tainted for the same reason because you need fungibility. And to be clear, I think this was on the road map. I think it was scaling and then fungibility or privacy or whatever word you want to call it. But on the road back and being worked on, it's just not there yet. And everybody wants everything now. Um, wait. So that's that's how Bitcoin is going to work. That's how open source and other projects. Which is also why we shouldn't be able like, oh yeah, Bitcoin's perfect. Bitcoin fixes this is perfect. Everything's perfect. Everything works perfectly because you just boxing Bitcoin and it needs to develop and get that to the gang. But well, and that's the perfect part that it's hard to edit, but it then it can be edited and it can be improved. It's like software. All right, moving on to issue two issue two micro strategy. The micro strategy CEO predicted the death of Bitcoin years ago. And this week his company chose to invest $250 million in Bitcoin. Let's go straight to his tweet. December 18th, 2013, that's just about not too many eight months or so into the mad Bitcoin's experience. The beginning of Bitcoin as everyone knows in 2013. Michael sailor the CEO says Bitcoin days are numbered. It seems to like just a matter of time before it suffers the same fate as online gambling. And as you know, online gambling is also worthless now. No one is playing poker online right now. No one's using Bitcoin. But the micro strategy investment group just bought $250 million worth. Martin, what do you think about this incredible reversal by micro strategy? Who, me or bad, who first Martin? Okay. Well, I think everybody has there a moment, you know. When I started with Bitcoin, I thought it will never, will never work on mobile because this blockchain will be too big. And then, you know, we fix it with SPV bullets. Then I thought you know, it will not scale well. And then we got the lightning network. Now, I understand that people have their reservations when they think about Bitcoin and sometimes, you know, they see problems ahead. To put it out in a tweet. Yeah, that comes back at you. It's like Trump says that he's never seen a thin person drink diet coke, you know what I mean? So there he is with a picture having a Mac me happy meal. And then he's drinking his diet coke. So yeah, I don't think it's a big problem, you know, everybody allowed to change their opinion. But yeah, it's such a company buying 250 million dollars in worth of Bitcoin. I think it's good news. I hope they hold onto it and don't use it to just manipulate the markets. But from what I read in the article, they're there for the long term. So yeah, good. Everybody is allowed to change their opinion. But don't tweet about it because it will come by to buy your back. And Arck, should we welcome the CEO back? Well, I mean, it's permissionless. So you know, let them all come back because there's nothing we can do about it. But I mean, it won't be like, as you said, Bitcoin was only what for five years old back then. So it was pretty rickety. And we hadn't had the OSF stuff and that's where. So you tweeted something out. You should probably shouldn't have drawn a line in the sand. But it's an apology when he then goes to invest such a large amount of money in Bitcoin. And actually, it's the sort of action, which I want to see in Bitcoin in these strange days. I don't want to see Bitcoin like, you know, correlating with the stock market. I want to see people using it as a hedge for all the crazy economic stuff which is going on. I think that's what the reason for which him for buying it was is for using as a hedge. I think it mentioned design the article. So hopefully this will encourage other people to also view Bitcoin as a hedge and somewhere safe to kind of store your money during the inevitable economic crisis stuff we're going to get happening. So yeah, I mean, that was 2013 Bitcoin. I mean, you know, the guy could be forgiven for saying such a thing. And I think quite often as well, like when you have something that's actually interested in Bitcoin and it kind of plugs picks that kind of tickles their interest. They have this like existential, I don't know, like they want to attack it. You know, they want to kind of say something negative about it or be dismissive of it. Either that or they go the other way like we all do, which is we just instantly fall in love with it. But for some others, it takes them. I mean, in fact, you know, a lot of people, you know, when they meet their lifelong partner and the love of their life, they don't really like them very much when they first meet them and then they grow to like them. So I hopefully this would be the start of a beautiful relationship between between him and Bitcoin and I know I'm ill encourage other people with similar funds to a similar thing, you know, have some Bitcoin in their portfolio as a hedge. That's what it's all. Well, I want to start off by taking the high road here and I want to make fun of their company name. And then the big road strategy, clearly the strategy was very small. Should have gone with a big strategy. This guy's strategy was small. He didn't see Bitcoin then. He could have gotten a great deal for his people and he could have put in a lot less than $250 million back in 2013. But then again, I wasn't controlling his hedge fund then he was doing it and he had a micro strategy. So also I think that online gambling is still popular, poker is still popular and especially in Las Vegas, they had tons of apps where you could just run the sports book from home. You don't have to go to the sports book. All the apps were advertising that your new bookie was on your phone and I thought that sounded terrible like my phone was going to break my legs. But that's what they were advertising with and that's what things have come to with online gambling, Bitcoin and now micro strategy joining us. But of course, anyone wants to invest $250 million in Bitcoin. We welcome them in. We're happy to take their money. So Ben, more on this? Yeah, no, like on the subject of online gambling, like you know, Fiat Jeff, I don't know if anyone uses LNTX but I love that on Telegram. Absolutely fantastic. Great wallet. Really good actually for like, you can like generate API keys and things on really easily and in Telegram groups you can kind of send funds between each other and he's built in some gambling functionality. So you can do a coin flip so you can start a coin flip and nominate him and all the people who need to go to the conference. Yeah, and man, if you, this, one of my friends got me in and one of the coin flip Telegram groups of degenerate, lightning, Bitcoin gamblers and there, there are a lot flipping coins. So I think that the ease of access and the way it can penetrate things like just a messaging app means that we'll see more and more. I mean, actually scam me a little bit. I did it once for I lost and I was like, right, I'm leaving because gambling is a vice which I can't go anywhere now. I've been there before and it's dangerous. But I think it will make it easier for people to gamble more and more. You know, that's just one example I've seen which is very fluid and easy to engage with. So flipping coins, how awful. And I'm thinking of the kids in the nickerbockers, shirt-tailed young ones peaking in the pool hall window after school, you got trouble folks right here in River City trouble with a capital T in that rhymes with P in that stands for pool. But flipping coins is just as bad. So let's move on to the exit question. When you think about a Bitcoin doubter or a denier somebody like Peter Schiff, does something like micro strategy coming along and investing $250 million in Bitcoin help turn them around? If not, is there anything that could? Let's go to Martin first. I don't think many people are in Europe know company micro-stredity. I think they're probably, you know, the background is in IT, I hope, because otherwise yes micro-stredity doesn't really, you know, give a lot of, doesn't really ring a bell, but I think they're used to be tech funds or something like that. I have no idea what they do. I just read that they're really, you know, doing a lot with Bitcoin now, but never heard of them before. So for me, I don't know, it would help. And if I say maybe doubters like, you know, funds and institution, you know, investors, yeah, they might pay attention and think, well, maybe we should, you know, maybe not 250 mail, but let's just put a small amount in Bitcoin. Why not? It's a hedge against inflation. We all know that and look like the big, you know, finding out as well. One thing they know for sure is that keeping it in dollars won't really help them in the long term. So, or euros for that matter. So, yeah, Bitcoin, gold, I don't see that as a real, a real option, but you know, the Winkle first wins this agreement, which is like, you're next up yet, I think. It's time to make a bridge. Hydro strategy fills you full of confidence. It's a grower, not a shrower. I can't believe they have $250 million. Ben, your thoughts is this going to convince the doubters? Yeah, I think in embarrassment like this guy obviously held that position for so long. He became embarrassing and all the investors in my co-strategy, whatever we're saying, we want to invest. We want Bitcoin and Apple for a little blah, blah, blah, which is a great, you know, I think that's a P.F. Chiff moment. Eventually, P.F. Chiff will either be bought out by Max Keiser or something or people will be embarrassed into submission and actually think like, you know, as it is permission. Make fun of them on the way in. Speaking of making fun of people, the Winkle Vi twins just had an interesting interview with some guy on YouTube who used to trade stocks, but now trades Bitcoin. He said he had a large greening hammer that he uses to smack the market when it's bad. When he discussed with the Winkle Vi twins, their belief that gold has no value because Elon Musk is planning on mining gold asteroids and soon and that this will wipe out the value of gold. Therefore, they are in the Bitcoin hook line and sinker. The twins looking like the stereotypical Winkle Vi twins from the movies, finishing each other's sentences and nodding their heads in agreement. Ben, what do you think about the Winkle Vi twins and the possibility that Elon Musk will be mining asteroid gold within the future? I think it's stupid. If you're going to send stuff into space, then you send in a Bitcoin mining rig and then just harness that solar power, non-stop solar power. You can mine a lot of free Bitcoin off the back of that. I think it's dumb. I think they really failed in the Winkle Vi. That guy doesn't know his name. He sort of comes into prominence somehow. They really failed. They had an opportunity to go and explain Bitcoin to him and then they just ended up shilling shit coins. It was quite funny actually. I like the journey the guy made. Within three sentences, who's like, I don't understand Bitcoin. A lot of the shit coins, I'm going to make my own coin. It's the perfect summary of when people create their own shit coin. They don't understand Bitcoin. They get attracted by shit coins and then they decide to make their own coin. I don't know if he's as ignorant as he makes himself out to be. There's part of me which thinks that maybe they were just trying to pump some chain link and get some chain link. Quick funds for themselves. I suppose they are just shilling exchanges and they want exchange fees. It was a real missed opportunity. It was pretty sad. I know some pretty influential people like watch this guy with the green hammer. He's talking about Bitcoin and that's a good thing. The idea of... There are lots of important minerals out there in space which you need to go on harness. I don't think gold is particularly that. I think things like coal bottle are probably more important. That's probably the more valuable substances which are out there which can be hard and instant used. If you are just wanting to chase dollars and make some money, then stick a bunch of Bitcoin mining rigs in space. Brilliant. Free power. I don't think Bitcoin mining rigs will work because by the time you're blocked and you send that data back to the world. No one here. That's... You're right. I'm so saying I think this is a dumb position to take. I fully retract that position. It's awful. I tried to use satellite internet access at the time years ago. That was before Fiber was common to play video games online and that's where I found out what it means to have netlac. You're just too late and in the case of Bitcoin will be too late to confirm the block. I think mining in space and Elon Musk will do it. I think that's really overestimating his capabilities. His problem is keeping the factory open. If you don't clean out the rear bumper of your Tesla Model 3, it will fall off because it will accumulate dirt. I mean, really, you can't even build a proper car for now. He's not going to mine in space any time soon. But I think the wincof is probably right in saying that Bitcoin is the better bet compared to gold. I think the exchange interview in my opinion, I think, you get to interview somebody like the wincof of twins. You should have different questions. You know, ask them. They're not just about their position and Bitcoin is the best bet. You know, there are many companies. When I was in Germany, I exchange coming to Europe. What's their involvement in block five? Maybe ask them about the recent hack there. I mean, there's lots of stuff you can ask them. I'm just asking about Elon Musk and mining in space. I mean, really, there's a missed opportunity. If you get the time, then I ask him some decent questions. It's typical. It was coin telegraph. I believe. Yeah, it was coin telegraph. Sometimes they are a bit off track. And I like the artworks. They're really, really like their, they have always nice, nice images, drawings made with the articles. But sometimes they have red articles where I was quoted, you know, and what didn't just it makes sense. And how you really had to ask them, please, please, please correct it because it just makes no sense this way. So I assume this is how the wincofoss twins in the few wins as well. Yeah, I think it was a perfect example of this space. The wincovi entered early with tons of money. They had their Facebook settlement. They were rich to begin with. They took some of that money and made an early and awesome bet on Bitcoin. From everyone's expectations, they put tons of money in early and at any point in the future, they could have taken tons of money out or they could still have a huge investment in Bitcoin. So they've been huge winners and it's all thanks to Bitcoin. So of course, the first thing they tell you about when they meet this new guys, they don't tell them, hey, put a large bet on something new, take a big risk, hold on to it for five years, 10 years, see how it goes. They tell them, no, you can make money day trading. And they support the idea that this guy apparently much like micro strategy, while they have 250 million, this guy has 250,000. And he's got it on Gemini ready to day trade. The wincovi aren't alarmed by this. They're not concerned. They're like just gamble bigger, gamble bigger into the right things. And apparently they're against gold. It almost seems like I couldn't believe it until I watched the video. I read the little article and I watched part of the video. It's such a stereotypical liberal or libertarian thing to say where they say gold has no value and Bitcoin is much better than gold, although libertarians do like gold, some libertarians do. But to say gold has no value, usually they go more the gold is not useful, gold is very bendable. It's not good for weapons. It's not used in computers as much as people think so on and so forth. But just to go straight to the asteroid mining, which we've always discussed on this show, we've always discussed that there was a possibility of getting an asteroid. But we've never been so confident about the success of the project, the incredible complexity of perhaps drawing an asteroid to Earth, putting it in the orbit, keeping it in orbit. That's very difficult. Crashing the asteroid into the Earth somewhere, not destroying all of civilization and the dinosaurs and everything else, just to get gold. That seems very difficult. Going out to other asteroids, getting the gold from the asteroid and physically bringing it back the weight of the gold, every additional gold bar, more fuel to burn, more difficulty. And Hannah, why not just get Bitcoin and just mine it then and maybe use hydroelectric plants right here on the Earth? Seems a lot simpler. It was interesting to see the Winkify go this direction. And it was also sad to see, I'm not sure that they've learned very much about the fundamentals of Bitcoin since their speech at money 2020 and 2014 or something like that. They did a keynote speech. They didn't seem well informed. And even then, also I love Ben that not only the guy talked about making his own coin, he also wanted to mine. He didn't understand mining. He didn't know anything about mining. He never researched it. But in his head, just like everyone else, not blaming the guy, you get this idea that your computer can make you money doing nothing. And you want that idea. You don't know anything about it at all. And you're like, that idea? Yes. So it's really too bad like Satoshi said once or twice. He was like, I wish more people could mine with the single CPU. I wish we could slow down this GPU thing. But we couldn't it. We can't and especially worse now. But yeah, I think everyone wants to run this kind of Bitcoin faucet on their computer. Maybe they should make some kind of a mining program that just gives you 10 Satoshi's a day. Like a Satoshi an hour or something where it just makes people feel like they're mining. Like just the experience. Moving away from the term mining, you know, and just it's securing. And then you get paid by the network for securing. And yeah, as you said, it's still now that the mining myth. Maybe it still exists between no coiners. They think that they can get their computer to mine Bitcoin. I'm amazed at the Winklevi when I hear them speak that, you know, they're like Harvard kids. I mean, they're supposed to be like intelligent guy. They're running a Bitcoin exchange. You know, they've done some stuff we should make you think they're intelligent people. But when they talk about Bitcoin, like they do, they do miss them. Mark a little bit, which is something of a shame. Something I will want. I do want to throw in there is like a controversial subject as well. It's like that argument for gold against gold was that you can pull in a gold asteroid. So the gold has not got a finite supply because you just keep pulling it in. You know, I don't think Bitcoin's got a fixed supply. You know, I think if we all rallied, if all Bitcoiners or users wanted to increase that, reach that 21 million cap them, we could, you know, that's the way it works. Bitcoin's whatever we wanted to be, it'd be hard. And it probably wouldn't happen. But potentially we could. So I don't think it's healthy to think of Bitcoin as being, it's limited now. Definitely 100% and probably for the next 50 years or something for 100 years. But at some point in time, it might make sense just to have, you know, more to reach the 21 million cap and not, you know, and continue to reward people for securing the network. That might make sense. Again, don't box Bitcoin in. But for now, I mean, I always kind of think of it as something of a bootstrap mechanism. Because if you do have such a limited supply, then it's going to encourage a lot of people to invest in Bitcoin, invest in companies and blah, blah, blah. And then once it has really good infrastructure, then something like a change like that could eventually happen. But I didn't think it was a good argument. I think it's probably more likely that that would happen than we're going to pull in some gold asteroid. We'll pull it down to work. So. This way, but great. Toppo controversial stance I take on and I don't believe 21 million to be a cap. I don't know about that, but you're. I want to stand up for the gold bugs in the audience. And I want to remind everyone that there is still a limited number of asteroids filled with gold in the universe. And if you did a study as obviously Elon Musk must be doing a study right now, there'd be a limited number that are in range, more that are out of range, and more that we can't see at all. So there is limited unlike. There is an infinite amount of cash at the federal reserve. That's an infinite. Every time I hear it does, it's so funny. There's so much. Sure is an infinite amount of cash. He has so much like and he has it. There is an infinite amount of cash at the federal reserve. So I mean, as opposed to the old mining thing, but we've got to move on. We got to keep moving will Elon Musk mine gold from asteroids within the next five years, ten years or never? Let's go to Martin. No, no, no, no, no. He first has to make the Tesla work. Then there is the Hyperloop. And then there's like, oh, yeah, there's this space telecom thing. I don't see that one flying very very soon. Yeah, we've seen it pass, but not doing anything yet. And then mining, no, no, not in this life. Maybe, maybe his kid, but then why his kid? I don't know, somebody else might mine in the future, but it's definitely not going to be Elon Musk. Sort of no offense, Elon, but no, sometimes I think he's a bit way off. And don't forget, in addition to that list of things, he's also working on a mind interface for my computer, because I'm tired of typing. Ben will Elon get it done? It depends, but if he hasn't bankrupted the US by all the tax breaks, which he's had for all his stupid far fetch schemes, I mean, I don't know, he's made electric cars kind of, I don't know, I'm in this better electric cars, maybe by car companies than the Tesla. But no, I mean, a lot of all of the stuff he's done has relied heavily upon the US being able to fund a lot of what he does through tax breaks and whatever else. So if that's still there and they don't mind him burning tax dollars to go off into space and try mine gold, then yeah, I happen. I don't know, I don't know. Unlike you insolent noobs, I would never bet against Lord Elon on Mars. Elon controls the air. Speak ill of Lord Elon. If he wants to mine gold, he'll do it. My only problem with the Winkle by theory is that Elon never talks about this. He always talks about living on Mars. He talks about going to Mars. He wants to go under traffic with the boring company. He hates traffic. He seems pretty clear about talking about something and then doing it. So if he starts talking about mining gold from asteroids, I'm going to expect him to do it. But until then, I'm not going to hold my breath. Moving on, be sure to give us a thumbs up and a share that really helps more people find the show. Be sure to subscribe down below to the World Crypto Network YouTube channel. We've got lots of new content that's scheduled for you. These are the first time we've ever seen these videos from the Transylvania Crypto conference. Even though it's from last year, we've been scheduling them slowly. They've been coming out. Some of these are cut up versions of live streams, which did air before. But are so much easier to view in their smaller forms. So check it out right here on the World Crypto Network. We've still got lots of content. Even though no one can go to any conferences anywhere for a long, long time. Check out the World Crypto Network. Issue three, maybe four. Let's go with issue four coin base to offer Bitcoin, backed loans to US customers. Coinbase continues to search for something to do with their time. A some kind of business coin base has tried everyone else's business model, except their own. A last time coinbase saw everyone getting rich off of altcoin fees. And Coinbase wanted to be cryptocurrency. Unfortunately, Binance was the new cryptocurrency. Now Coinbase is reaching back into the old files and giving out Bitcoin backed loans to US customers. Coinbase will allow customers to borrow fiat loans against as much as 30% of their Bitcoin holdings in the fall. Once again, a new business model for coinbase. Bin arc is this the one that sticks is coinbase finally going to be successful after copying everyone else's business model and turning their once easy to use website into the most complicated website in the world. I mean, I think they're encouraging people to stake coins and lock them in into their into their system. For them, it's probably quite a good business decision. And I do think actually that the idea of Bin arc to turn Bitcoin into capital, which you can use as an asset to loan against wood encourage maybe some companies who are worried about banks stopping the lending of money, during hard economic times, which often happens to start opening up Coinbase accounts and buying up some Bitcoin. I think it's an avatable thing that we're going to have Bitcoin backed loans on kind of a larger scale, particularly with banks are going to struggle to lend people money. I think Coinbase is one of many that a lot of other companies will copy suit and do the same thing and offer Bitcoin backed fiat loans. So yeah, recently we had the US banks can hold Bitcoin legally now. I was like a thing which was past recently which was pretty big news to be fair. So I can see a time where it's almost like having capital like gold or something, then you can use that as an asset to to loan against. And that could be a very appealing for companies who need to lend money like I've come easily to lend money. I'm kind of interested to see this product grow actually. I'm not too skeptical about it. It's a good business decision because it's staking coins that keeps people locked in into that system, which I know sucks for Bitcoin is not how you supposed to use Bitcoin is stupid. But as a business like that kind of makes sense for them and then also considering a lot of their clientele might have hard economic times ahead of them, but they're looks and sell Bitcoin, then they'll take these loans and then they'll have to pay interest on the loans. It's kind of an inevitable thing which is going to happen and it's good business decision for coin banks. Don't worry Ben, coin base never worries about the good of Bitcoin. They're always looking out for themselves. Let's go to Martin. I think it's great, but it's not from what I understood is it's only 30% they will loan. Sorry, I mean, if you put a dollar there in the value in Bitcoin, you'll be able to get 30 cents out. So it's pretty over leveraged. I've seen other parties like Nexo.io do this similar thing up to 50, sorry about it, 50% loan to value. So that means if you put a dollar and you get 50 cents out and they don't limit themselves to just the US market, they do it globally and it's like no questions or automated process. So coin base has some muscle, they're just huge. I believe they already store over one million bitcoins. I mean one in every 21 bitcoins is stored at coin base in their custody people with accounts there think it's their coins, but you know, some rails on to not, as you should say, not your private keys, not your coin. They do not have your private keys essentially coin basis coins. So yeah, I think it makes sense for them. They do tend to like add new things to their platform and they've been doing this for quite some time. Some people hate it. I do think that they were like nicer when they were like only Bitcoin, but from experience, I know that you know if the client asks for. You know a whole bunch of crazy alt then you know as an exchange, why not offer it? You know, it's like like general bites. We all support over 50 different cryptocurrencies and tokens and LLP tokens, you see 20 tokens name it, it's supported. But in reality, most of our clients themselves to Bitcoin and a few other coins are token. So I totally understand coin base. I hope they succeed in it because they obviously put a lot of work in stack. We now see it as being like really big news that coin base is going to do that. Well, other parties like next so dot I have been doing this for them. I believe a block fight too. We do an internationally not just the US market and limited states. I looked it up. I think if Nevada was listed too. So you can borrow money for your coin for your Bitcoin stalemate. So yeah. I do think it makes sense. Coinbase has been adding so many new features to the platform that it's. Yeah, this was something they were missing. It's it's it's especially for US customers. I think this is beneficial. I'm not don't quote me on this, but from what I understood the US tax system works that if you sell your Bitcoin, then it becomes a taxable event. Right Thomas? Correct me if I'm wrong. But not 100% on tax advice and so on. So okay. Yeah. This is not tax advice at all, but from what I understood that instead of selling your Bitcoin. So you take a loan out on your Bitcoin. You didn't essentially sell them. So from a text few point, this might be very interesting too. It wouldn't work here in the Netherlands or in most European countries, but from what I understood the US tax work. So that you know, once you sell your Bitcoin or even use it to buy a cup of coffee, the capital gains between buying your Bitcoin and then selling them for a cup of coffee becomes a taxable event. So by not selling them, but loaning them out or basically taking a loan out on your existing Bitcoin. You don't sell them. So it's not yet a taxable event. That's what I think it is. And this is again, this is not tax advice. I don't give any tax advice, but I think this makes sense. And if that's the case, then Coinbase nailed it by offering this service that probably keep a lot of Bitcoin in custody for their clients. So yeah, I do think it's a positive development that this type of applications are being launched on the Bitcoin platform because it just makes Bitcoin more of a grown up financial system. I don't think I wouldn't I wouldn't do it myself. You know, imagine you know flash crash and then you either have to buy more crypto or deposit more crypto at Coinbase or they will liquidate you and then you're wrecked. So I would never use this service for that reason. I've seen flash crash so many times that it's not the matter of when or sorry if, but it's more than matter of when there will be an X flash crash and they'll just liquidate you. So yes, then then then then they are the ones that win because 70% was already in the cause in their wallet. So yeah, I forgot your original question. It's all about it's a bet on the value of Bitcoin going up and it's the same problem we had back at BTC jam back in the day where if you take a loan that's denominated in Bitcoin and the value of Bitcoin goes up your your in trouble because you have to pay that back. We had kids on the service they taken loans years ago they owed you know 50 bitcoins 20 bitcoins they were never going to earn that in their lives in the other way if the price of Bitcoin goes down then your collateral goes down your value goes down and you're still going to have trouble paying it back and the problem I think people are going to have is they're going to to Brian's pawn shop and they're going to have a ticket looking to get their Bitcoin back or their precious valuables and it might not be there or maybe they'll be less bit there less of it all the time but I don't know about the tax deal that does sound pretty good. I guess you're still going to have to keep selling more and more of your Bitcoin which means that like a James Bond villain Brian Armstrong gets to hold more Bitcoin in general. So it's been a really good play the whole time I think he's been really public about it that he wants to own all Bitcoin's that he wants to control all Bitcoin's in his system and for their part they do a good job with the backups and with protecting their site they haven't had any major hacks that we know of and they've done a good job with their customers assets as he Martin have more on this. Yeah I think the with with Nexo you don't have to actually pay them more like for example if you if you put in one Bitcoin and then you can get cash out of the value of half that Bitcoin but then you get a cash transfer in case the value of Bitcoin would drop they would liquidate the assets that because it's over collateralized loan so they would liquidate the assets the meaning that you can still keep your money you just sold them at a bad rate. If the value of the crypto goes up you can either pay back the loan a little bit at any time or take more take more money out so it's it's like a balance but they'll never they'll never come and ask for you like a send me more Bitcoin unless the price of Bitcoin went down so much that you're no longer the collateral they in Bitcoin is no longer covering your assets and when that's about to happen then they will let you know as I will we will liquidate your assets your Bitcoin if you don't you know come up with more Bitcoin so you could like send them more Bitcoin and be in the green again but they will not like come knocking at your door and saying that you have to go to the pawn shop and sell grandmother's ring because you took a loan out on the exchange you know so those were my grandmother's keys they've been in this family for generations yeah you sold them at the pawn shop. I know it sounds like a very exciting game and I'm sure a lot of people could do well on it for me it does worry it worries a little but I think the most important part of this and maybe the difference between coin base and anyone else that's offering this service is that coin base really is a way to do it. This really is a well financially backed and a large company presumably you could trust that they won't run off with your Bitcoin or they'll have insurance if that happen maybe this is a safer to try out that whole fun pawn shop lifestyle that I've been listening out on. Ben did you have more on this? Yeah no I remember in 2017 when the price was pumping and we were like in a $50,000 or something I remember people saying you know on reddit you know I've taken out a $20,000 loan to buy Bitcoin so if you then give Bitcoin as like the ability to lend money to probably come up buy more Bitcoin like it could be it could be risking could encourage some some negative behavior so hopefully I mean because I know this is that they're advertising it's a very easy process to get that you don't need to do any of these. There's no credit track which also might be useful for some Bitcoin is because I know a lot of Bitcoin is who we've got terrible credit when I was either in Bitcoin because they kind of turned the back on. You're putting up all the collateral I mean they think about Bitcoin they actually have it and it's where is that house or a deed or anything else or a car alone you're sending them the actual thing like they actually have it. Yeah I mean they have you have to put 30% of the loan of the cash loan. 100% they give you 30%. Oh right shoot okay that makes more sense okay okay okay that case then yes. So if you have money you're set. Just go ahead and get a loan. It's for people where they have like a hot tip on a horse and if they could borrow a million dollars for a weekend they could bet on the horse and get 5%. But it's the limit less you know. It's a limit of 20k the article said so unlike next so where you can loan up to say millions you can actually loan millions if you have like multi-multi millions in Bitcoin. With Coinbase there's a limit of 20k so yes it's for a new car or you know at Washington Washington broke down. Same thing that company has like a commercial account. They've got Coinbase as part of their portfolio and they just need a quick injection of cash for something. Then it could be quite a nice way of getting cash. It's not more than 20k. What is with Coinbase? They can't copy anything right and this blends well into our exit question. Who will Coinbase copy next? We don't want to give Brian any ideas but then again it's fun to give him some ideas. Ben what can Brian and the guys at Coinbase work on copying next? What haven't they done? Last week what were we speaking about? What was it? Bit main and how you would you would never think that they would be able to be the throne back in 2017. Coinbase are a bit like that. They just seem to make loads of goofy decisions and they always seem to come out on top. Who knows man, I know your personally on your particularly don't have a much of a liking for Coinbase. Maybe the World Coinbase network will be low. There you go. World Coinbase. Martin what could Coinbase copy next? There's several. I think for one there's this app called Stacking, ST, EKK, ING. And this is where you get cash back on purchases online. So it wouldn't surprise me if they launched a sort of cash back shopping surface. On the other hand I think that you know it's I'm not sure if they would be interested in copying such a surface. And there's all this app. We have an app called EveryTradE.io where you put all your trades in from the different exchanges. And then it calculates your taxes and stuff. This every trade IO app is something I think most Coinbase users would really want to use because they have problems calculating taxes. And it wouldn't surprise me if Coinbase will start something like that. But in typical Coinbase fashion, probably just copy tiny little bits making it not completely usable. People will still keep using the originals. But they do have a lot of financial muscle. And with one million coins in custodial wallets, it shows that from many people Coinbase is the first wallet they install. So that alone can be the difference between having a success or a failure. But what I think is more likely to happen or what I think is that they just buy a surface. Like for example, if they like like a surface online, why try to reinvent hot water and why not just approach those people and say, hey, we want to buy your surface. How much? That's a. I think yeah, so so yes, there are several things they can copy. I think a cash back service or an online accounting service is what what will be next. That's when you say that's when you say general bice is not for sale. I didn't say that, but we're privately on. Yes. Well, worth noting that new article about Amazon, even better than buying some little company, you just meet with them, steal their idea and do the same thing. But let's not give them any ideas. I think a tax service is a really solid pick by Martin there, maybe too serious. My idea is really simple and no one's ever done this before. It's completely brand new. You branding is included. It's all right there. You call it local Coinbase. And they trade Bitcoin for dollars and you let it up like a Starbucks or a bank or another safe location in the app. You use your Coinbase app. You meet up and you can trade Bitcoin for dollars right there. Get cash with local Coinbase. And if that's not good enough, they could also do Coinbase desk. And finally now you can get all of your Coinbase news in one place. It's completely non-biased. You can trust it because it's Coinbase desk. So they'll work on that soon. They got a lot of guys. They got them working in shifts. Anyway, moving on to issue five. I barely understand this. Let's give it a try. Issue five. How D5D Gens are gaming, Ethereum's money Legos. And it sounds like a gang of people led by my friends, Stephen Mackie and others who used to sit next to me at purse, shout out to Mackie. They formed kind of groups and it seems like they pooled their money. Now they're using their giant pools of money to pump and dump random stocks or ERC 20 tokens. The first one seems to be called Yam Finance. Yam Finance shot up $160 a token and had $700 million, $700 million in no lost collateral obligations under contract, aka yield farming. Then they had a bug in their code, lock their governance and the token market cap swiftly lost $60 million in 35 minutes. So this is the new game, apparently a version of it called based dot money, another DFI MMO game that Mackie compares it to. It's not actually a game they're using real money and they have anonymous ghouls on their team and they welcome their users via tour saying we are live. Get the fuck in you degenerates. So let's go to Martin and Ben. What do you think about these new degenerates and their trading tokens and something called Yam that we just learned about yesterday will go to Martin first. Go ahead. Yam lived for four years in Lagos, Nigeria and they had these big sweet potatoes and they call Yam. The article already states that Yam is hot potatoes and you don't want to be the last one holding it. What? I don't play the shit going casino to be honest. I'm not a toxic maximalist either. I think everybody has their own coins and tokens. But this I mean, I'm not even I'm not even going there. If I look at the Ethereum network right now, there's 75,000 plus transactions pending, which is, which is bizarre. The transaction fees on the river, which are three dollar fifty seven. Right now compared to one dollar something for Bitcoin. So I think it did in the network is just overloaded and I don't think it's anything serious will come out of this even if you build something nice. It will kill itself because the fees will be too high. It's like, you know, I believe don't face once he's not very excited about Bitcoin either, but he once said, it's like quicksense. You don't build a house or a company on quicksense. It will go under. And this is my opinion about the current current state of the Ethereum network and and and you know these these defied games, which aren't really games. They're just like, there's almost like scams really. They do nothing really for the Bitcoin or sorry for the crypto industry at all. There's just people trying to get more Ethereum to buy and then exchange them for extra expensive and super rare Bitcoin because you know, there's no market cap on the Ethereum even Vitale, Vitale has no idea how many they really are. So I mean, this is it. You know, it's like I would stay away from it from it and you know, you might win some or you might lose some. But you're not winning if you're just like if you're here at home, I think, oh, I have to get into the new defy craze because it's it's shit coin I see us all over again. You know, it's the same platform. I don't know, just stick to Bitcoin and make Bitcoin better. This is my advice. Ben, ARK have the defies become DGens and where's Theo when we're finally talking about game. Yeah, there was there was a lot of Twitter actually people saying those words and then they're like defying. Yeah, and and they were robbing on about it for the past week or so. And I was like, what the fuck is everyone talking about? I was able to stuff I've never heard of. But House, but on sand. I mean, that's a that's a biblical. That's a story from the Bible. It's regained the build houses and one of those house and sand. And I think that's the that's the point. Like some Ethereum projects are great and they're technically interesting and they they make cool stuff, but they're building the house on sand and it sucks. Like I feel sorry for them that eventually when they realize that that it kind of is kind of too late. But yeah, I mean, I know Vitalik is trying to distance himself from some of the am stuff by tweeting out that he's never actually done any or is it called fielding or yielding or I don't know some shit. It's the next ICO craze, isn't it? Why quite like about the degenerate thing though is it's almost because what they're doing is, you know, morally questionable. But if there's a kind of understanding among all the back holders that it's like the that they're all degenerates and it's the last person to hold the bag and it's kind of is gambling. Then it's almost like, well, okay, if that's what you want to do, then crack on and do it. What scares me is that the vulnerable people are kind of get roped into these, you know, into these projects. So it is good that people do distance themselves from from from the scams. Yeah, it's it's it's something I know very little about, but I know it's it's a complete like like the ICO stuff like all old coins pretty much. And again, I'm not like a toxic maximalist, I just I think that. Bitcoin's the thing and and and everything else is more is just a distraction. Or best attack a test network, you can like play around with some ideas because it might be easier to do something like theory and I don't know. But yeah, it's it's degenerates degenerates being degenerates and hopefully they won't pull in too many, you know, unsuspecting vulnerable people, but likely it will. But this this Yam scandal of it dropping in such in its value like that. I mean, I don't even know how that's possible. And I for my wife, when I read it, it was like somebody goofy as well like a division in the wrong place in the code or something. So yeah, these are the people. I mean, that was audited code as well. So when people preach that they've had their code audited by X, you know, super, you know, auditors, then that doesn't mean anything. But yeah, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's going to happen. It's the wild west of value transfer people are going to play around with it and do goofy stuff. Just hope too many people don't get burned, but they will inevitably. It's it's just amazing how far we've come. I remember in the beginning, we used to say things like don't invest more than you can afford to lose. And when new all came altcoin projects came out, we were always critical of them. I remember when Ethereum came out, I said, you don't know how many units they are. They could always print more. They could devalue your money. They could introduce inflation. This is what we got into Bitcoin to stop, right? But I was wrong. Apparently people got it a bit coin for other reasons. And they want to be degenerate gamblers. And they want to play a little game where they all rob from each other. And it's not so much about information or innovation or having a good idea or knowing about something before someone else. It's just about this game where in the end, like Ben was saying, someone gets stuck holding a bag. And then they lose their house. And then they get divorced. And then their family hates them. They become an alcoholic. But it was their fault for playing the game. It's kind of like those hackers who believe they should break in and steal from everyone. Because if you're not smart enough to protect your keys or your data or whatever it is, you deserve it. You deserve to get eaten. And now we're in argument about humans being good and bad and so on. People people people people get people get rich. And they are on on these scams. You know, I mean, back when the theory launched, I think I. I bought a substantial amount of Ethereum, but then very quickly after kind of reading up on it. And I was very concerned about Vitalix role in the whole project. I got rid of them all. But that was financially terrible decision. But people make a lot of money on some of the shit. So, you know, that's what's going to pull people in. I mean, and if it's gambling and if people are collectively acknowledging that and they're like, yeah, one of these things might just implode like the am thing and then everyone loses their money. But, you know, I know that going into this thing. Then whatever you can't stop them. That's what they want to do. That's what they want to do. But it's just like maybe the ICO thing. You know, a lot of the Chinese grannies investing their pension funds in ICOs. Maybe enough of that more burden that they'll be a bit wiser when it comes to this daffy shit. I don't know. But it's this, this, all these new words, man, we should be throwing around it. Even now it's like distracting. It's distracting us from the main event and what's important. We're just talking about hot air and idiots just throwing value around, moisting it. And I think that's a good move to the exit question. exit question. Are the D5 G. Jen's good for Ethereum? Yes or no, Martin? Sorry, Thomas. My line dropped. What was the active question again? Are the D5 D. Jen's good for a quick Ethereum? Yes or no? No, I don't see you know gambling in general. It's not good. You know, we're trying to make a better world here. This is not creating a better world. Ben Ark. Absolutely not good. It's a complete waste of time. Yes, you can do this stuff and try and earn a quick buck. But there's nothing productive there. And you know, there's more. I mean, yeah, yeah, this is not good. There's nothing there's no inherent value in it. I mean, as a test, not sometimes there may be an interesting project, which eventually some of the concepts will maybe move on something like big, but they're fucking goofballs. I remember. I like Vitalik. I think Vitalik's a bit corner. And I think he kind of got annoyed at the Bitcoin ecosystem. Because and he he's another time as well, it kind of makes because of the nixay bow stuff and you know the smart contracting. It kind of made sense that you would do a come out with something like Ethereum. That would be the next logical step after Bitcoin. But I still think he's a Bitcoin and I still think that I mean, I'm pretty sure like, because when I work that Vitalik, that's very faxist, latter thing I put on Bitcoin magazine. And he used to edit Bitcoin magazine. Vitalik was quite quickly. He was in a lot of the conversations on Twitter. So even though he may not publicly admit it, I think that he, you know, he's very interested in Bitcoin. And he's kind of run away with the Satherian thing. And there's all this sand and there's all these projects being built on it. I don't know, man. Like, yeah, it's not, it's not good. It's not good. It's just a waste of time. It's degenerate and it's gambling. Just stick to Bitcoin. The split coins enough. Well, I agree with Martin that it's just gambling and I agree with Ben that it has no scientific value. But that doesn't matter. We're talking about Ethereum. This is good for Ethereum. It gets Ethereum's names back in the headlines. It gets more people interested and that means more people looking to make more money and that's more suckers to get fleeced by the DGEN. So come on, get in there. It's good for Ethereum. It doesn't matter. Moving on to Ethereum. Yeah, I want, I want, and again, it's permissionless. I want, I want Vitalik back. I want him in Bitcoin. I want something catastrophic to happen to Ethereum for it to completely implode and then for him to have sickle him back into Bitcoin. He's a great dude. I like him. I want him in Bitcoin. I want him back over here. Come on. Vent your talent into this wonderful thing. We've got Bitcoin. It's a beautiful sentiment, Ben. It's beautiful. Moving on to issue six. Issue six. The Fed says it's developing an experimental digital currency. The day has finally arrived. We talked about Fedcoin for years and years and years. Other countries enticed us with China coin or Iran coin or even Aurora coin. But now they say it's finally here. The Federal Reserve in the United States is working on a digital currency. Of course, the Fed already has a digital currency that they print for use by banks and others. But we never get to see any of that. And we don't even know how much they're printing. I wonder if they'll make the same exciting choices with the Federal Reserve's new digital currency, which we can only assume will have. There is an infinite amount of cash at the Federal Reserve. And now they're going to print Federal Reserve Bitcoin too. Martin, are you excited about the new Federal Reserve Bitcoin? I'm not really sure because the article is saying because it says it would need a lengthy process. And no decision has been made to start one. So they're just talking about a Fed or Fed coin or a Federal Reserve cash or whatever digital currency coin. But no decision has been made. So this article says yes, they're working on it, but they're not working on it. And it does remind me a bit of in the Netherlands where the central bank decided to look at Bitcoin, but they were not allowed to touch any Bitcoin because that would be bad news. It's like each year on dog food policies or they work with just euros. And so what they did is they copied one on one, they copied Bitcoin and they call it, I don't know, whatever the shit coins name was, the NB coin. And then they just use that to try it out and you know, just get to learn a little bit about digital currencies. They had no intention of launching it because they because they just mean that we would have to get into their private network and do a 51% attack on the coin because they were using the exact same algorithm as Bitcoin is and they could not possibly have to hash power. Bitcoin has so it was a bit of a failed experiment, but for them, it was only a way to learn about digital currencies. And I think you know this article, they say they're developing, but no questions has been asked yet and there's no process has been started yet. So what I think is happening here that they're just looking at the possibility or not even that they're just looking at what, why is this digital currency anyway and they're finally waking up time. I'm not convinced that it's going to happen. I think there will be too little to lay it anyway because you know if there is really an infinite amount of cash, they might just have a reject. They might as well did just by PayPal and inject numbers there, you know, in their day to day stay. So I don't know what do you think then. I want to I want to push back. I'm sorry. Here I want to argue in favor of the Fed coin and say that they've finally noticed us and they're paying attention to Bitcoin and they're going to cop. Yes, and how great this is and that they're even talking about it. We've reached the stage. We used to just speculate on it, speculate on it endlessly just because we like talking about the idea, but now it's real. Now it's happening. They have Bitcoin envy and the Fed coin is jealous. Let's go take a. I think you've been. I don't know Martin disagree. I think if they if they do create a Fed coin, then a general bite. We will make sure that you can change your worthiness Fed coins for extra valuable bitcoins or any of the other 50 supported. So we're going to get to currencies because yes, this is just one we need to add by then, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. So you're learning from the CIA now you're being morally flexible. Then are. So they framed us in enhancing their understanding. So if that. Intelligent and they enhance their understanding and so learning exercise for them, then they'll see that Bitcoin is the main event. And then they Bitcoin more seriously, maybe just a lot of adopt some sort of Bitcoin. Picked fear thing. I think it's very possible that you can have a sovereign currency on Bitcoin. And then you can do like and I'm like modern monetary theory stimulus, fiscal stimulus to keep the economy moving in hard shape and. And you can do all those things on top of Bitcoin and still have a sovereign currency on top of Bitcoin. So now it does make sense for them to explore. I mean more and more, particularly with the COVID. I mentioned the C word isn't amazing. This is like the first episode. I think was just made a slight mention there, but on the on the whole in this COVID world where you know we've been discouraged more from using cash and we're all using digital. We're using our cards and there's clearly a market for a digital cash. So something quote you retain some privacy and inevitably people naturally fall towards things like Bitcoin and the free and open source options which are available. So it makes sense for governments to really take the technology which we're working on very seriously and try and come up with with something which people can use to pay for everyday goods. And then if they do come up with a digital fear, then it will be strong armed into behaving by Bitcoin and that goes back to Nash's ideal money type scenario. So yeah, no, it's cool. I hope they look into it seriously. I hope they appreciate like the crazy work which has gone into Bitcoin. And then they try and develop a fear product which you know because obviously people can easily off ramp onto something like Bitcoin because that's there. So they need to compete with Bitcoin. Now I mean this is this is them saying yes, we're going to investigate this thing. Now we have a better understanding. We need to compete with Bitcoin. How are we going to do that? Well, it needs to be stable because obviously Bitcoin's biggest floor of using it as day to day currency is it's all over the place that's terrible. But if you're going to make a good fear currency, then it would be a stable coin on Bitcoin. And then you can use like some of the Bitcoin hardening security stuff. So yeah, no, it's cool. I look forward to it and it makes a lot of sense. Thank you. And don't don't want to get you down, Ben, it's not like Facebook's working on their own coin. Nothing like that's happening at all. So Fed coin. Yeah, I mean like the the Libra coin project again, you know, I think it's got it. It's not about Facebook anymore. It's about Libra. It's free. Libra. Yeah, they got the name and they got Libra.com I think I don't know. Somebody else just got at BTC. Apparently you can buy anything if you have enough money. I mean, yeah, like so, you know, at BTC, you know, while Dunne you've launched a new news platform for Bitcoin stories. That's great. And to be honest, the very fact that Aaron Vomwooden was on there gives me a lot of faith for that project because that dude fucks like he's a cool guy. Like I really like him. I really like his journalism. I think he's very vigilant as well. So he wouldn't attach his name to a project which he didn't think was, you know, in the best interest of Bitcoin in a pragmatic way as well. Like he's not he's not someone to box Bitcoin in. But that logo like the the the the the the the BTC times logo, man, like I mean, I think we've been working on this. I see times which launch this launch this week and I'm super psyched for them while done and they've already written some great articles. It's great, but the logo, the logo. Oh, come on. It said say from the people that brought you the B foundation. Oh, oh, everyone, everyone, but me. My reservation. I have a reservation for some of the people in. They've already. I do have a reservation. Now now that you can purchase this on the BTC times for $500. I'm sure it's all going to be awesome. Here on out like everything is going to be awesome. I'm going to give them a benefit of the dog just because I was attached to a musical guy. I like it too. He's cool. But let's move on. But I'm really intending to talk about that exit question. Will we be using Fedcoin in our wallet to purchase hamburgers in the next five years, 10 years or never? It's the same question for now, but now it's about Fedcoin. I think it's probably 10 years and it will happen eventually. You know, it's just the evolution of money and saying five years. If you look at it, let's. Maduro Madurco Madurco Maduro in Fengsuvela, they just had the biggest problems with with their with a pet road is this digital coin, which was basically a clone of another coin. And apparently they have a new Genesis block now and all the other wallets no longer work and everything is like you know reset. You can't do that with with a Fed coin so they'll it will take some time. I'm and I think now it will happen, but it will be 10 years before we'll be about buying burgers with it. That's kind of romantic. It's like V for vendetta. It's the fifth of November and they reset the blockchain. They have a brand new Genesis coin and all of your money's gone. Oh, this is gone. So so much for the petro they should have called it the Trump. Let's go to Ben. How soon can I buy something with Fedcoin? A couple of years, man. A couple of years. Like a piece of time. Yeah. I'm with you. Do we lose Ben? Is it for me for everyone else? I can't I can't hear Ben. I don't need such a connection lost. Yeah, I would say under five years it's tough to say with all the presidential elections going on, but there is a need for a digital dollar. There's a competition now with China and other countries. And while it's all been fun for the United States to do nothing about Bitcoin and laugh about it and even all the horrible times when the US Marshall sold their Bitcoin instead of holding it and building more Smithsonian museums like I suggested. They probably could have bought the entire British museum shoveled it like picked it up put it on a ship brought it over here and dumped it down in Washington DC. Just for some of the Bitcoin's that they once had and that would have been criminal money going into stealing museums. So it would have been amazing. It would have been a great. I don't have much of dollars. So that didn't work out very well, but we're going to move on to predictions or story of the week. Martin, you're the only one left. Do you have a prediction or a story of the week? Prediction not really. I just got just a product. We've been really busy on launching this every every trade.io. I think we already announced it. And during HCPP I believe hey, there's two of you now Ben. Including myself like a shit coin. Yeah, and the. But we are adding a lot of new features on Monday. So if people are interested, you know, it's it's a accounting package for all your crypto trades. And currently it connects to the crack and exchange or directly to the general buy say the M's. But most of your viewers here, why will probably appreciate that it connects all other trades. You can download your trades from several other. Several other exchanges and there's a growing number of direct connection. So what it does it aggregates all your all your data into one place where it can say how much did how much coins do I have? How much did I pay for for them? What's my realized profit unrealized profits and especially with lots of trades it becomes you know complicated and uses takes all the complicated stuff out. And then you know you can print reports which you then give to your accountant or bookkeeper and they'll make sense of it and just let it flow in your taxes. Everybody hates paying taxes. But if you want to be able to say look I bought this Lambo or whatever I don't like Lambo is too much, but I bought a nice Bentley for for my bitcoins. You'll have to justify where it's from otherwise you'll have a big problem. So yeah, that was that was my main thing for for we've been working on this like and then adding new features. Well, it's been working on it for longer, but it's it's really shaping up to be a nice app now. So I feel was want to check it out. It's at every trade dot IO and that's this my shameless link pump Thomas. Very cool. Check it out and you can also. Yes, if you with Martin and the creator of every trade right here on the world crypto network. We should like Prague at HCPP so very cool. I'll put it down in the comments. Yeah, I'll post the link. Yeah, other cool. Yeah, Ben, do you have more on the exit question and what's your prediction or story of the week? Is that is that is that is that is that separate products a general vice then or is that something which kind of like. Link's in actually sorry, sorry, Ben. Is that a separate product general vice was that something which kind of links in with general vice. It's a separate company actually. The provides is part of it, but it's a separate company. We have created like an API connection in the ATM software which directly feeds the trades to every trade. So the thing is like for example for an ATM operator, you will need to. Hey, Texas on that. But many of our operators they forget to charge for example, deduct the cost of the mining fees because it's so difficult to calculate. And this software allows you to do many different calculations and this constantly new one, new ones coming up, new ones added that will basically help you know keep a good overview of your of your business. And it hates doing accounting. I mean me too. I don't like looking at numbers, but I understand the. So it's different like differentiate for different regions as well and different sort of textures to jurisdictions. Can you start the region in which you're in and then it will kind of calculate the tax. The correct is it's it's not like a replacement of your accounting package, but it's just like a companion. It will help you generate the reports you need for for for for for for for. So for like LM bits could could that be something which could like plug in and it could like pull in a report or something. So could I connect over API and then send data from like at a point of sale terminals from a bar. And then this and then it would send and then it could email back or send back somehow a tax report or something correct. There's a universal connector which you can use to it will be on GitHub very soon as a universal connector which you can use to feed it the trades or your data. There's many currency supported. There's a growing number of cryptocurrencies. And then it. Pins or API and then your API sends back. How's it paid for? Is it paid for? Well, it's depending on the number of trades. I believe up to 10,000. That's free. There's a fee above that. I believe we're increasing the limits too. So we one thing is for sure we are not selling it. Tients larger institutional clients like you know funds and larger ATM operators. They can contact us for a self hosted version so they don't have to trust us. I mean, why would you trust the guy with the beard that appears on the world crypto network? But we're based in Europe. So we are privacy laws is quite strict here. We can't just say thank you for your data out on sell it and it will be just. We don't know. We're not paying taxes so like so when it comes to privacy, I don't know. They don't can anyway. I have to give all my. Well, it's their data. We're not we're not touching their data. So that's why we have a free plan which is like I think will be enough for most people. There will always be people you know that if they want to get you know, paid support that's part of it. It's included in the in of support is included in the paid plan. So they might want to upgrade and get the paid plan. And it's those clients that are that that we're focusing on those will. Well, basically it's a freemium model where the average user will never have to pay because they're within the limits of of the app. But at the same time, using the app will probably you know, if they run a fund or are there they do a lot of business. They'll they'll see the value and they'll want to upgrade because the savings will you know, we'll make it back. That's that's the idea. It's really useful. It's a really just a really useful. I mean, if it's if it works, I think it works then it's really useful service for you know, if you're on boarding and you say. So say it like Ellen bits for example, you can like provide that to a cafe or bar whatever. And if you say look, all your ears click this button and then boom, it sends back like tax in tax info. Then that's that's super useful. So I mean, I at the moment like we can export to Excel or whatever, but it's nothing beyond that. So to it takes it out on this exports to CSV or XML. Yeah, like a CSV just a CSV of all the wallet info. Okay. We will be able to easily import that into every trade. If the format is not supported, you can send it board deal bit personally. I think you know API is better. I could build. Yeah, I could just build in like a button, you know, like and it could just I'm only could send all the data. If you know, if people want to. That's cool. Now it works so that with for example, Kraken, you can create an API key in Kraken, your exchange or India ATM. And then it will connect like permanently connect to your accounting to every trade.io. And whenever you visit every trade, you'll see all your transactions there. You don't have to import anything. It's just there. Yeah, it's really nice to. You can you can use Google to sign up. It will take you like six seconds. I timed it. If you're slow connection, then it's seven seconds or maybe eight. But I managed to sign up in six seconds. So that's like no complicated forms or nothing. And if you don't trust us, just use some throw away email accounts. If you just want to see the service. Proton Malmann hit Proton Malmann. So self-proton Malmann. But I mean, I know sometimes you get it. Sometimes we like shell at the end of these shows and people are like, oh man, here comes the shell first. But actually, like these services are so important and they're so useful for for actual companies, you know, using Bitcoin and adopting Bitcoin. And I already I'm excited about that because it's just it just makes. Onboarding people so much easier if there's, you know, there's a service like that. Yeah, it was something our clients asked for for many years. And we were always pushing them to third party service. And I said, oh, it doesn't do this. It doesn't do that. And I just need a simple tool that really works. It gives me the wrong data, you know, some of those I'm not naming any because that's not cool. You're actually have a bottle of whiskey there. Yeah, I got my, I got my, my highland pot 12 year old. Yeah. Yummy. Anyway, the, just give it a go. Yeah, it's a shameless shield. I hope Thomas will forgive me, but I was so excited about this. And now we're advertising whiskey. I tell you they would never show products like this on the world coin base network. Yeah, that's for our rankings. Is it we've just dropped like a whole few points there from to show off the same the word whiskey and show them a bottle. I've been here exit question. Yeah, yeah. So back to the point, I think a couple of years until third point, maybe not even that like peace time. Yes, I'm with more in 10 years, but we're not in peace time. Everything's radically being like fucking bootstrapped and like these governments. They want so I am something the modern monetary stuff is like. It's kind of something we were thinking about, but now it's very much in the forefront of their, of their thinking. Like how can we how can we just stimulate economy and keep economy moving through fiscal stimulus or whatever else. And a digital currency is a great way to do that. So that will happen. And the next within the next year, a couple of years, Fed coins going to happen very soon. You'll be paying for your burger with dollars on your phone. I'm sure very soon. And then exit stuff. I'm regarding stories to be honest, just like. I've been doing real life stuff and some of the Bitcoin stuff is kind of taking a backbone. But the elements has a couple of extra extensions working properly on it now because they were a bit buggy. So I like launch them and then like. I pulled them back again because they were too buggy. So there's like a ticketing one. So you can like, you know, pay to ask questions. And then there's a events one, which is completely useless. But hopefully, you know, when COVID gets out of the way we can, you can use that. So if you've got an event happening, you can like launch tickets and then people pay Bitcoin over lightning for tickets and then. And then you can also use the same extension to then scan the ticket when they arrive at your events. That's pretty fact pretty. I'm pretty psyched about that one. So I think that's it. I know on Sunday we're going to be me and Christian roots all are going to be making a little tutorial because he's got an extension he wants to edit in Alan bits. So we're going to show it just like how to set up a dev environment and then how to add it because it's really, you know, once. You get handle on it's pretty easy to kind of work on the software. It's all free and office source. Of course, you know, you can use it as much as you want. So we're going to be working on a little tutorial on that on Sunday and then hopefully releasing on Sunday as well. So looking forward to that. And I think that's pretty much it. I mean, just like, I just psyched. I'm psyched that people are using Bitcoin as a hedge because it freaked the stock market correlation stuff freaked me out. But then that one, the story we had in our show today kind of encouraged me that you know, people are using Bitcoin for what it's meant to be, which is somewhere to store value outside of the system where. And you can feel like you have autonomy and control over your funds and you're not putting them in some ropey banks control. So psyched about that. But that's that's really it for me. But I'm also super psyched about mine project and like I totally want to sort of integrate that in somehow now in Alan bits. All right. My story of the week is that the internet sees censorship as damage and routes around it. The internet has repaired itself and Zao Tongues ender's stroke road is back online. There's a mirror right now at some random guy on YouTube shout out to Maven Major City for uploading the file. If you know how to do it, you can get a backup copy from YouTube right now. You're very own copy of Zao Tongues until the end of Silk Road until they take it down again. Also shout out to D humanizers 77 who put up another mirror of Zao Tongues other missing film price down pick up. So you can now enjoy both of those Bitcoin classics and if you have a YouTube downloader program or you search Google for the words YouTube download. You can probably figure out how to download a copy and this way we'll all have backup copies of the next time they take it down. I won't have to worry. There'll be lots of about copies. So good job internet. That was a disappointing time there where we couldn't listen to Zao Tongues. Shout out to everyone who wants to donate you can donate right now to support the show. It's a Bitcoin address. This is our one million dollar fundraiser. We've raised 0.14% towards one million dollars more than it used to be. And also shout out to the world crypto network dot store where you can get your own world crypto network t-shirt. The treasors don't float t-shirt or even the Bitcoin not bomb Bitcoin have it in 2020 edition. Check it out at the world crypto network dot store. And that's about it for stories a week for me. I think we've gone pretty long today. We had a lot of issues. There's that crazy. And D5 thing we had even though we have a lot of issues including Yam 99 problems but Yam apparently is one of them. So it's pretty crazy stuff out there but thanks again to everybody for joining us. Be sure to give us a thumbs up and a share and hopefully we'll be back again next. Thank you so much for joining us. Until next time. Bye bye.