The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Arck from BTC-IOT. Shabbai, table for two. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one, issue one, Twitter hackers caught. The alleged Twitter hackers who hijacked famous Bitcoin celebrity and politician Twitter accounts to forge messages requesting and then receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars in Bitcoin seemed to have been caught by their own intense desire to spend those very same and very trackable Bitcoin. Were these criminals galactically stupid or were the feds incredibly lucky? I ask you, Ben Arck. Yeah, they were just kids. As we found out, one of them was just 17. I mean, props to the hack. Well done. It was a fantastic hack. And I always say that you don't really want the hacks you don't hear about, which you want to be worried about. And if a couple of young teenagers are able to gain that level of access to Twitter, then we should all assume that GCHQ and CIA and whoever else have also hacked into Twitter. We can't assume that a company like Twitter can secure our privacy as we all know. And that's something we should rest on our shoulders. And when we use these services, we should understand that even if we are having a private message chat with somebody, a direct message that other people are very likely to be reading it, multiple people, particularly all of us. Because we could be on lists for just being Bitcoin as an odd data to could be being collected, most likely as being collected. So we should be very worried. But it's sad, man. Like, there were just kids. I would hope that Jack Dorsey is a bit corner, which try and provide some clemency or not, we're trying to ask for reduced charges and just count it down to a bounty. I think the kids got away with $177,000 in Bitcoin. And for the level of exploit, which they were able to find, that's a very reasonable bounty. Like Jack Dorsey just pay everybody back. Everyone who got scammed, they used their Bitcoin addresses. So if they can provide the right key, then you could just pay them back. And it could just be just seen as a bounty and some very naive kids who got caught. Yes, they should be punished, whatever, blah, blah. But they're just so young, man. Like, fantastic hack, well done. But I really hope that they don't spend years and years in prison and that they're not made an example of, which they probably will be made an example of. But I think the $17,000 is facing 30 felonies. So each one of those is going to carry a sentence and it's all going to wind up to quite a lot. But yeah, there's only $177,000, not a lot at all. I thought that this would be the tip of a much larger hack and that the actual loot would be all the data which they're able to collect from people's messages, from someone like Bill Gates. And I'm sure they're worth a lot more than $177,000. So yeah, I mean, they're lucky, Twitter are lucky, they're just a bunch of kids. And I really hope that they're not too harsh on them because, you know, they found an exploit and I don't know, they should be acknowledged the achievement that they're able to hack into this system and hopefully Jack will come to their aid just as a bit coining. Well, the hackers were juvenile and their hack was juvenile as well. I'm not sure if we're going to celebrate the technical nature of this hack, Ben, as far as I know, they socially engineered a person who worked at Twitter, they convinced them to somehow reveal their password, then they gained access to this Twitter administration tool. And I think, yeah, but I mean, almost like how, how men, people are trying to hack Twitter all day every day, you know, like it's, it's. How are their employees have full keys to the kingdom? Let's look at this administration tool. Why does it have the ability to forge a message as President Barack Obama? For what reason does Twitter need that? Okay, there's a serious cyber attack of some kind and they need to warn everyone. Well, they already have a message system, they have a warning system, it would pop up above Twitter, it would have a big bar on it would say attack in the US, you need to hide under your desk, you know, they can get that message to us. They don't need to forge a message as Obama. It's a, it's an insight into how Twitter works and how incredibly backwards it is. And to all of us who are hoping that perhaps your data was segregated and separated and only certain administrators had access, apparently this one administrator of some kind had access to a tool that had access to everything. Like you say, the direct messages, all the private, so-called private, a lot of us have known for a long time. It wasn't private and then sadly, eventually all of our DMs will eventually be published. But yes, all of that private information was accessible, a several complete downloads of the Twitter account that function in the account has been gone for a while. But several of those were done as part of the attack. And according to the article, one of the things I found most interesting is the first thing that the hackers wanted was not to get Bitcoin or to impersonate Bitcoiners or Barack Obama or Kanye West or whoever else was attacked in this thing. But they wanted short names. They wanted to be at VV. They wanted to be at foreign. They wanted these cool Twitter handles, it was such a hackery thing. And they also tried to sell creating these cool handles or stealing these cool handles as a service. So it was really small time compared to what it could have been. Everyone in the media freaked out. They were like, wow, you could start a war with that kind of Twitter. You could crash Tesla. You could crash the stock market. I mean, you could really mess some things up instead of just having this repetitive spam message saying, give us Bitcoin or go to some weird website and get tricked into sending us Bitcoin or all these other kinds of things. It's really not. They didn't live up to their fullest. So yeah, I think I don't think Twitter is going to pay back the Bitcoiners as a bounty. That would be beautiful if jacked it, but that would create a horrible incentive for these other companies, especially when we talk about BitFinX later on. But again, I just think we want to look at how Twitter was designed poorly, how Facebook as well as design poorly and how all these softwares are designed poorly on purpose. You have to design them poorly because the advertisers need access to that data. If you designed software like Twitter or Facebook properly, you would just use encryption keys. You would just Facebook is a friend of a friend's system. I publish something with my friend key. You have my friend key. You can read it. Friends of my friend have my friend key. They can read it. There's no reason for a Facebook administrator to ever be able to read my message unless they're one of my friends or acting as one of my friends. That of course, that takes away their ability to censor. You can say any kind of horrible thing they want. It also takes away their ability to monitor it and then advertise directly to you. They don't know that I'm into computer software if they can't read all my messages. They need to know that so they can target the ads properly. Same thing for Twitter. Sending out a public message should be encrypted. Should be signed and keyed. The user should never know about this. The user should never after know about encryption or that they're pushing these buttons just like with lightning strike or any of these new softwares where you don't have to know about Bitcoin or the lightning network. You just push a button. It works. That's what the users should get. They should get signed messages, especially when we're talking about not just former president Obama, but current president Trump who uses his Twitter account for foreign policy, for domestic communications, for bizarre messages, all kinds of things that like them are not need to be protected. That's his communications tool. Could you imagine if those kids from Trump's Twitter had said North Korea attacking, we're pressing the red button, the nukes of lines in North Korea? Can you imagine what happened? You must have tried to get Trump's account. We can only assume that as much as we all thought that we had 2FA and certainly this administrator tool gets around the 2FA because it's not 2FA to an actual encrypted account. 2FA to Twitter's goofball database that any goofball administrator can get into, but yeah, they must have gone after Trump's account. And other high level accounts like that, there must be a second level of protection of foreign accounts. It's just got to be. You say it's sloppy programming and I think the real tale is that it's centralized. If you make a proper decentralized system, a proper decentralized to it's a light you say, using keys, people control their own data, blah, blah, blah. That's dead hard to do. And obviously there is no economic incentive for someone like Jack to make something like that. We will get there eventually, but the world needs a decentralized Twitter where we control the data and if they wanted to hack, how many people did they hack? Was it 40 people? They made it 40 accounts or something? They managed to hack. And they would need to hack those accounts individually and social individually. It was just still possible. And if the bug, it would be a major bug, like a bug in the encryption or a bug in the encryption is applied or something in the stack, something in there they would have gotten in and they would deserve it. That would be a technical hack. It wouldn't be like some guys password was leaked because he ordered a pizza or something. Yeah, it's going to be more and more. I imagine the trend will be when you have these galaïth internet presences like Twitter or Facebook that they will become decentralized protocols. That will be the evolution of a service like that. And it should be because it shouldn't be controlled central. It should be something which is a public good. There are, I mean, there's the really hacky one is scuttled but isn't it, which uses kind of an end to end encryption things. It's really slow. It's pretty cool. And just like any free and open source, people are working on it. One day we won't get there. But for now, we're just going to have to pop with these very convenient centralized services. And these hacks just remind us that we shouldn't panic faith in them when it comes to privacy and we should be careful what we say on the, it was funny actually because the, I think it was the morning of that hack. I, someone DM me and they said, oh, do you want to talk on signal? And then I was like, no, it's only me and you and Jack are listening at the moment. So we don't need to worry. And through a direct message, it's quite a part of that happened like that day. But it became so obvious that the security vulnerabilities in Twitter, again, no, Jack, Bitcoin, like you understand cryptography, what the hell man? Like you understand security. I would hope. You know how Twitter was written in the beginning. Twitter was a very hacky job to begin with. Then they grew like crazy and they hacked a bunch of them on Twitter. Then they went back and refactored it. And everyone said, hopefully it's better. They had the whole fail, well, all of that. And I want to add in now that Twitter also has no money. When I look at my internet stocks, I look at my Facebook, my Apple, and my Google, I look at my Twitter and I'm like, oh my God, Twitter, what happened to you? Why are you still at 30 or $40? Like Apple, the 400 and Facebook said all these crazy Googles at 1500. It's insane. But Twitter never got that extra bump of capital. They never got that thing. So there, if we have to think about who has the best engineers, like Apple, Google, Amazon, not Twitter. So there's something we said they stayed independent. They didn't get acquired by Amazon. They didn't get acquired by Microsoft. Maybe they will. I know a lot of people tried. I think Yahoo tried a lot of these. Yahoo almost bought Facebook at one point, but the whole thing, not just a pain. I think it's just a simple piece of software. Like I think one of the introductory Ruby on Rails tutorials is you make Twitter, you know? Well, that's under. Payful about all this stuff is that it used to be unix and free and service based. There used to be, I'm going to age myself, but yeah, there's this like, I think it was called finger and you could finger like John Carmack at ID software. And if John wanted to say, hey, we've got a new update for Doom. It's coming out in two weeks. He could have put that short message on his finger and I could have fingered him. It sounds horrible. All the early internet things were named horribly. Gimp. But yeah, it could have been open source or program like that. Also, you could chat with people if you're on the same unix server. Like we've had all of these features that became Facebook, that became Twitter and they were open and they were protocol and they were server based and they could have been interlinked and they could have been encrypted and they could have been for the public good. But what happened was, is these advertiser driven platforms were so much better financialized. They could hire better engineers than the open source and the free people. They could get there so much faster that they would be miles ahead in their software and that these little projects would spotter and go nowhere and even the ones that were interesting. I think there's one diaspora or diaspora or whatever and it was a spread. It was like a distributed Facebook like you'd run Facebook as a server and you'd run it on your machine. You'd get your packet of friend information and you get your packet of this and it would be encrypted and decrypted and you'd have to run a program, no one likes to run a program except for BitTorrent. Every other program no one will run. But yes, you'd have to run a program and I'm pretty sure the founder committed suicide mysteriously. There's all these things that it's a lot of reasons why the small projects don't succeed and the large projects do and why we end up with this failed internet. We had this beautiful dream of an internet and then all the corporations and the advertisers and the comms and the second round of the comms and all of this happened and then we got what we have now, like little pieces. I think like working on free and open source projects back in the day when there's all source 4G type things. It was really hard and confusing and hard to collaborate on but now we get all that's a lot easier and there has been a huge influx of user interface, good user interface developers who've come into free and open source projects and tidy them up because free and open source software for a very long time user interfaces were a trotious and like people would say can you know, Libra office please or what was open office at the time please can we have a ribbon because the ribbon's cool in Microsoft office it works, easy to access, it's not confusing and we've got loads of little icons and they're stuck to the guns and they're like no, no, we can't have a ribbon and now there's a name of it but there's a very good office thing with it has all those features like a ribbon Gimp, like for years people saying please can we just have the same GUI as Photoshop, it's great, it works well and Gimp are like no, no, no, no people need to learn how to do that. And the names like when I was a teacher I always form my students, I used free and open source software, actually had my philosophy is that if you're teaching through a proprietary piece of software you're essentially just a sales person and that didn't feel right when it came to education so I always use free and open source software but whenever I was like I'm teaching you're having like young kids you know and I'm like hang right so today we're going to learn about Gimp and please change the name, just call it I know G or something or GPU, I don't know, just call it something else or something. I'm so old and again I'm aging myself this whole day but now I remember when they named Gimp they had like an open source contest like a project to name it and they're all discussing all these different names and like photo editor and you know Photoshopper and you know things like this that were all like describing what the software actually did and then somehow because the internet loves acronyms, graphical image manipulation program right GIMP. Oh that's a great idea, I mean all the unix and all these things what's the canoe? Canoe is one of the best and worst acronyms in the world right and acronyms are great and terrible. I should make sure you had when you think about it you know when you're like canoe, canoe, canoe, canoe. It's useful nice to make you feel good like twine the world is not enough that's a terrible James Bond movie but a great acronym right but canoe the acronym is canoe is not unix. Canoe is not unix so it defines itself which is so fun for Stalman but it's been no fun to everyone who's had to explain it afterwards and that the same with GIMP and the same but again it's whenever we get something nice they let the internet try to name that rescue both at one time and the internet comes back with the greatest name ever and they're like call it boaty mcboat face. Yeah. I was a pivotal moment in time and I know we're going off subject here but that was a pivot moment in time where the world could either be fun or boring then we decided to go okay you can't know sorry the people you can't name it boat team at boat face which was a great name you have to call it I don't know they named after a physical guy but I mean yeah the boatman both face even better. They tried to off suit the internet's anger by naming it after a cool guy it was like if they named it after Neil to grass Tyson we'd be like well Neil to grass Tyson's really cool but boaty mcboat face is the greatest name in the history of names. Yeah okay yeah if we if we did the parallel universe where we named that boat but we met both face and the balls are a lot more fun and we haven't got the coronavirus. It's all changed it was totally different but we got to get back to the script now we have to check out the exit question exit question Bitcoin is both the enemy and the villain of the story as it is literally the object it desire and the criminals undoing will the mainstream media recognize the comedic irony and dramatic pathos of this situation yes or no. I don't want to say yes or no I want to say it's it's valuable and the larger public can see that this thing's valuable and this is why you know the thing they went after was Bitcoin it's valuable and it's private and you know we've had this price pump but I remember when we had one a cry where our health service was in fact in the UK was infected with this virus which requested Bitcoin and I think it was like 29 countries were affected by this one a cry virus in public sectors and I remember at the time I've got I've got a Reddit post saying this is huge 29 countries bitcoins on the front page and the press aren't saying it's Bitcoin's fault they're saying this is a virus and they're requesting Bitcoin because it's valuable and I think it's very similar with this this story the press they've been pretty good they you know they haven't said it's Bitcoin's fault they've said it's a you know it's a hack and they've requested Bitcoin because you know Bitcoin you know it's it's valuable but then I lost the undertone and now we've had a price pump so it's about the impressions man and like you know we got a lot of free publicity with that with that hack. I'm going to go with no I think the media will not recognize it I think I disagree with Ben here they called it the Bitcoin hack and I think they're going to keep calling the Bitcoin the Bitcoin hack even though we know that Bitcoin was not hack Bitcoin was not penetrated and if anything I think if they really wanted to look into it they could say that Bitcoin is maybe the heroin of this situation not the hero but the drug. Bitcoin's the thing they had to have Bitcoin's the thing they had to sell Bitcoin and throw them it's the addiction it's the everything I mean it's so powerful this demand this desire for Bitcoin that they had hacked Twitter and they could have started wars and destroyed the stock market and instead they wanted Bitcoin and they wanted it not to have it or to hold it or just to you know marvel and look at it and all of its facets they wanted it so they could sell it for money so and that's why they got caught so it's good lesson for everyone real hackers don't talk they also don't try to capitalize on their schemes within weeks of them happening I thought they'd capture these guys because it was such a big hack it's such a big deal but I didn't think they'd capture them this quickly Ben would it be this fast like this Twitter hack is like a story it's like last week yeah they I mean they young man they would have told people about it and they wouldn't have been private in their communications and that's how they've been caught so easily but I mean so just go and perhaps that one a cry so one a cry so people know was at the beginning of 2017 when we had the huge price pop and it's what got to start when it was the catalyst no one talks about it but it was a catalyst and I think this will be the catalyst too I didn't know that they refer to it as the Bitcoin hack that much be like a US thing lots and lots of stories calling it Bitcoin hack the Bitcoin Bitcoin is hacked or another hackers but yeah they could have just been sitting there with some cool short Twitter addresses and now they're probably going to jail so bad idea trying to sell their Bitcoin too quickly so on and so forth hacking things is bad don't do that kids bad do Bitcoin yeah you could have or they could have just sold this exploit to Twitter because that hey Twitter give us some money and you know what Twitter they should pay them bounties there should be more bounties and less hacks we shouldn't hear about it anyway moving on issue two Bitcoin price up the price of Bitcoin is risen by more than 20% in the past few weeks smatching through the all powerful psychological barrier of 10,000 and continuing to climb Thomas Hunt I ask you what is causing this sudden rise in Bitcoin price well I think it's the havining the havining and the havining we talked about this months ago with the havining we said there'd probably be a little dip a little lag time just enough time for me and some other people to have to sell Bitcoin to live and so on and so forth but after we got out of that goalie whoo straight to the moon right everything's great 12,000 and it just keeps going up forever no more problems all your troubles are over it's never gonna go below 10k everything is fine then what do you think about the price of Bitcoin yeah the hack the hack the hack so the hack the harvining of course absolutely you know for sure but under the like was you know we predict the like just like did in the last time but I do think that we've now we've had the price go up we've had like mine is dumping and just the correlation with the stock market has been a bit unnerving but they're just the traders I guess who are like jumping in that a Bitcoin but yeah the hack the hack and the harvining I think I read some whether there's like 27% more addresses and the wealth is kind of you know within Bitcoin addresses is far more distributed than it was back in 2017 which means that we just we've got a better bedrock to build from for this next big wave and it is I'm sure it's gonna go fairly substantially in price I mean if this was the first time that we'd like reached 10k then then no but I mean we've already hit you know 20,000 dollars in the past so we're just retracing you know old steps so we've got a good bedrock we've got a lot of good I mean and hopefully people because of the pho-mo people will start looking into Bitcoin and understanding Bitcoin as a hedge and as somewhere you can take your money out of the system and you can put it somewhere if you don't if you no longer have faith in banks and just in generic you know regular legacy finance so I think more and more people will be doing that and I've said this before on the show I really think that the the shift you get from traders they're just the slither at the top I know that the huddle of bedrock with every price dump becomes stronger and stronger and stronger if people just holding onto this assets and price is going to go up but I mean regardless of all of that the 2017 Bitcoin was so much more inferior than the 2020 Bitcoin we have now the technology is phenomenal things like lightning network with tokenization with looks like RGB is going to roll out on lightning network sorry spectrum it's going to finally roll out on lightning network and we'll have you know tokens and digital assets and but we're now at the time so you had the crazy.com ICO Ethereum fun but we're now at the actual point where the internet gets built and you know bitcoins development just continues to grow I'm on if anyone out there if you ever have those moments where you're worried about Bitcoin and you're worried about the Bitcoin price and level blood I urge you please join the Bitcoin main list and then when you get those moments of feeling a little bit insecure read some of the posts which are going between these Bitcoin developers and it's it's breathtaking the the level of expertise which is working on Bitcoin. In saying that just go to the GitHub and look at look at the comments and look at the people developing on Bitcoin just go to the Bitcoin core GitHub and it will reassure you that this thing which we're building actually has real substance and it's very very important I do think that Ethereum and its proof of stake shelling juxtaposed against the proof of work Bitcoin will suffer a little bit because this is going to be the energy concerns but I mean proof of stake is is we all know it's nonsense it's building a castle on sand and effectively you're just recreating sort of neoliberal power structures we already have anyway in society there's absolutely no point you know the rich are the ones you control the supply of money like that's not why we're here we're here if we're here for the opposite thing so but I do think that there is going to be some Ethereum nonsense and shenanigans which way for the Bitcoin price down a little bit but you know Bitcoin left it will just continue to grow and it's price will continue to go up of course it will I do agree we have much better infrastructure now than we used to like in 2017 they just passed 9,000 Bitcoin ATMs in the field so that's very cool there's a lot more options to get Bitcoin now but I do want to know it's harder to pack up to back up your second point about Bitcoin having substance and being important when you look at Bitcoin Twitter and you see the reaction to this price bump it really seems like everyone is in Bitcoin for the money and that when the price goes up everyone comes out of the woodwork and you had Barry Silver congratulating the Bitcoin project on what a success it is and all kinds of other people patting themselves on the back because they called this in this a triangle or this in this a prediction so it's very tough to kind of get back to that technology and to get back to maybe banking the unbanked like Andreas always used to say or getting money to the whole world or that idea that someone who's freelancing in Africa or something could get money for their freelance job and not get ripped off and not have to pay taxes at every level of the way or any kind of other system those ideas are still out there and I hope they're being worked on and we did have a show about that right here on the world crypto network with Ben and Chris Ellis and to me who who is an entrepreneur from Africa who's working on a solar powered Bitcoin node so that sounds very cool get you back to that technology and things but it does seem very financial out there very trader like and also while we're talking about this I do want to say I still like the phrase buy Bitcoin I think it's fine I see a lot of this like stack sat and it's me out I'm kind of like and I know I'm old and everything I said it a lot today I guess I'm in my mind somehow but no back in the day mad bitcoins told you early enough that you could actually buy Bitcoins it's very sad that you've waited so long that all you can do is stack sat so if you can collect change in the couch to buy Bitcoin it might not be too late but I don't know you had a lot of opportunities just like I quite like the the change in the logistics are like some of the old like even if you're going to local bitcoins you know like everything's bitcoins bitcoins bitcoins because it's just a little bit older so you know receive bitcoins and bitcoins and then when you reach some of the older books we were talking about Dominic Frisbee's Bitcoin book and every time he mentions Bitcoin and it's Bitcoins you know plural whereas now then for a while let you say it was Bitcoin and now it's the sad thing but no buy Bitcoin money so I mean I I order 2000 little stamps for buy Bitcoin they've run out I actually need to order some more and I've been given them out and people have been stamping notes and I've got a great feed on my Twitter of people who've stamped these these notes with buy Bitcoin buy Bitcoin is the perfect the perfect the advice you know it's it's it's basically saying you know runlinux usually bar office use GIMP it's the same it's you're saying use the free and open source alternative vote with your feet because they will listen you know like the society at large and and those in control will listen to the fact that people are moving into bitcoins something they haven't got control over and they'll they'll sort their act out but no I mean like taproot master you've got taproot master coming around the corner I agree with you you have all the like parabolic traffic is my favorite he always kind of comes up the woodwork whenever the price goes up it's fun it's fun like it's it there's nothing better than you know you get alerts on your phone or something when the Bitcoin price goes up a certain percentage and you get a little buzz for I mean price we we had such a long time of feeling miserable and seeing the price go down and saying that we all know when we look around the field those who've been through the the huge bear time and and and continued with Bitcoin and we all we're all very aware of the parabolic drives who you know were there for the pump disappeared completely when it was a the bear season and now just sort re-emerging so yeah I wouldn't worry too much it's just a little bit of fun man like um but yeah it is funny for someone that's been with these ideas for so long and the cypher punk and science fiction and then open source and you know free software and all of these ideas that we've always been you know promoting the internet we were promoting bbs and we were like you can connect your computers together and you can get on you know networks with more computers and access to more computers and why do you need that now because it's awesome and uh and then eventually they all come along and they they get to it and they they get their MP3s and they get their streaming video and all the the things that we had years ago they finally get to but what's so neat about Bitcoin like you're saying is that yes we're still promoting these ideas but in a shorthand where one of the possible benefits is that you'd make money or that you'd have Bitcoin or that you could buy things online so it just it gets very mixed up into commerce right away with it having a variable value having the ability to purchase things there's been nothing else like this on the internet you couldn't you know you have a list of bbs numbers you can't buy anything you have a list of ip addresses you can't buy anything even you have great access to fdp servers maybe you could sell the access but you can't use it directly to buy anything you can't put that as a a cube into a machine and the machine will recognize it and say activate whatever because you put the cube in so it's been great for that and it is nice to have something something positive to promote something positive to talk about there's so much negative stuff going on all kinds of other things and it's nice to have positive so let's move on to the exit question and of course you will have to match up against the Bitcoin predictor ball the magic gateball the predictor of predictors the sear of sears prognosticator of prognosticators but ban you are now on the clock you're forced prediction the price of Bitcoin this time next week higher or lower I always say hi so I'm just gonna say lower I always say higher I'm gonna stick with higher but here we go magic eight ball will the Bitcoin be higher this time next week it is certain it is certain floated right to the top took no time all the Bitcoin ball has spoken it's not holding anything back so there you go make all your predictions now use your triangles and so on and so forth moving on check out the world crypto network store at world crypto network dot store we've got the world crypto network mug the treasures don't float t-shirt that I'm wearing today the Bitcoin not bombs have any special 2020 edition and world crypto network the shirt at world crypto network dot store support the show get stuff at world crypto network dot store issue four bit for next bounty on actually issue three Bitcoin gold and the coronavirus in a period of transition it's only natural for the more nervous element to run for cover in financial terms that cover is known as safe haven such as gold and other precious metals some would now perhaps include the fledling fledgling cryptocurrency Bitcoin into this category of safe havens Ben Ark how is Bitcoin fairing in this time of the coronavirus well I mean we've just been like correlating with the weird stock market pumps so it's pretty hard to tell but it is a safe haven and I got a couple of gold book friends and they haven't bought Bitcoin before and they bought Bitcoin recently so and I've been bugging them for years I'm one of his one of my friends the biggest regrets I used to surf with him and I think it was at like $250 dollars I was telling them to buy loads of Bitcoin and then buy me Bitcoin so he is also the guy who told me when we're at the top that it's probably a good time to sell some so yeah good advice from an old gold book there but no it absolutely is a safe haven and it's tried and tested we've been going for so long and it's been it's done remarkably well so I think people have a hell of a lot of faith in Bitcoin and they should have faith in Bitcoin my question is so I wrote an article it was an open letter to Janis Farrifakis so a while back I think Dan Held and interview with Steve Stefan Leveran who is saying about marketing and he's promoting himself as this Bitcoin marketing guru where as I argued that you know you're marketing you're you're limiting your customer base by only trying to appeal to a certain number of people you should really be you know obviously being you know as I am all lefty you should be trying to appeal the Bitcoin argument to a broader section of society so I said what about Kenzie and I'd read a few Janis Farrifakis it's a bit of a rant sorry I find it's really Janis Farrifakis are causing the past and they did you kind of knew his stuff new you know Bitcoin better than most you know to talk about it publicly in the public politicians and when he had the they used the finance minister during the Greek crisis he actually tried to kind of use blockchain stuff and he had some ideas around you know companies printing these sort of debt tokens which could be used or whatever so it's I'm interested in seeing what's opinion is now with all the technology changes so I wrote this open letter to him and then he wrote an open letter back which is fantastic the guy's you know got a million followers on Twitter you know I'm there's not that many lefty's in Bitcoin now openly out and about so it was great to have like you know he's the tweet T-Part out over Bitcoin had lots and lots of likes and lots of people were reading his stuff so even if even if it's he's talking about Bitcoin in not a completely positive light which he wasn't actually there was some neutrality in his in his article but in his open letter so I but he's still talking about Bitcoin it's all about the impressions as I said before now as a safe haven as a as a hard money what does that mean so when we're in the sorts of financial crisis pandemic crisis we're in now you know people will say well you know we wouldn't have these problems if we had a hard money but then currently we have those problems so and those problems are best solved quickly with like a soft money so then the question is in the how can society use Bitcoin now if we were on some sort of Bitcoin standard or if we were just you're using Bitcoin but other than that how could society use Bitcoin now now my argument would be that you can still have some of the trips some of those soft money has some good functions you know you can create fiscal stimulus with with a soft money in a in a crisis so you can still have a soft money just think of it as a stable coin like a country can have a stable coin on Bitcoin you know on some liquid network token and if it needs to it can produce some more but because it's always reference to Bitcoin you can always kind of get a good handle on what the actual value of that token is they can't take the piss too much and hyper inflate because people just move into something else so my argument is that you can use Bitcoin for far more than just as a hard money than just as a safe haven is just as savings we all know that you know liquid network tokens and second layer you can have some sort of federated token but the built people are building stable coins and exchanges are using tokens for for sending value which is a medium of exchange between each other so why can't countries use Bitcoin in the same way and I think some of the first you know how thin he spoke about this quite a lot you know about Bitcoin kind of running a lot in the background so yes it's a safe haven absolutely courses it's a hard money absolutely courses but that doesn't mean that society is on this trajectory of only having a hard money solution of course people are going to explore how to use a technology to get some of those functions you know those soft money functions which currently you know the world just needs so I did a great discussion with Aron von Wurdom for the Bitcoin independence down this they had a modern monetary theorist and someone from the Austrian school debate was a great debate they're both very civilized to each other and respected each other which you know Bitcoiners could learn a thing or two from that and then afterwards we had a little post debate on it on that very topic all right I think Bitcoiners were misnashric like we could be appealing to a whole wider part of society if we can say look Bitcoin can actually fix the world you know fix the money fix the world and we can do it in a way which is it's less like hard core citadels and hard money like okay maybe you think that's where we're going to end up but you have to appreciate that we're going to have kind of a medium term where we may use the technology for just just more accountable fairer sovereign currency pegged or on Bitcoin so yes absolutely safe haven had a massive run then sorry but I think it should also we should also think about the technology being used for solving real world problems so now I think you're right there but I also think that you've just deflated the whole revolution because part of the fun of being a revolution area is you get to be an absolutist right so the Bitcoiners are all up here and they want to be absolutist they want to say the only money in the world is Bitcoin therefore if we were in a crisis like this and I've said it before how there wouldn't be money for war there wouldn't be money to buy bombers but there also wouldn't be money for disaster relief if you didn't donate when Bruce Springsteen said donate to hurricane Katrina on TV there wouldn't be any money and there wouldn't be any rebuilding because there wouldn't be any money to buy the rebuilding because the government would lose its ability to print money but what Ben saying is much more nuance that the government would learn much like tether much like a theory of much like any of these altcoins that you can print fake value on top of Bitcoin it doesn't have to be directly even linked to Bitcoin it could just be a copy of Bitcoin or just a variation of Bitcoin and suddenly you claim that you've printed a whole bunch of Bitcoin's or you've printed some Ethereum or you've printed whatever you've printed and now you're selling it so in that way like Ben saying we could have inflation we could have discretionary spending spending during a crisis governments could still be powerful but at the core in the background there'd be that Bitcoin clock just ticking along having that open verifiable ledger if the if the transactional vehicles are actually linked to Bitcoin they would be linked somehow whatever that means forever there's you know there's more technology there there's more transparency there maybe it's a better system like Ben saying if you try to over inflate your money by thousands of percent perhaps because you're going to build a bunch of bombers and attack your neighbor your neighbor's going to see it on the blockchain that your currencies over inflated and the market's going to see it the market's going to react to it and that's because there's so much more information than there used to be there's so much more signal could you imagine our only connection from like say the United States to the Europe would be an undersea telegram cable a telegraph and a little ticker would print out the stock symbols that are coming from Europe and that was really your only information is that thin little ticker tape that little piece of tape that's like the bandwidth that's the thickness of your information so you have so much more information now I don't know safe haven yet that was very difficult we had the big crash we've been following the S&P might need a couple more accelerations till it gets there but I think that the fundamentals are still strong the 21 million still strong the deflationary structure of the havining is still strong as long as those things are strong Bitcoin still strong but go ahead Ben you're fine yeah no I and I think you know as it inevitably we're going for open price because of the the perfect thermostorm of harvining in hack and whatever else and in the world needing people needing somewhere to put Bitcoin I saw it somewhere to put their value in we'll go up in price and then I'll reassure people again that you know it's that it is a safe haven but actually speaking to Chimpanzee from Nigeria he was saying a lot of Nigerians use Bitcoin just because they don't trust their government I mean we all know there's trust of governments but they don't trust their current state of trust of governments and they they use it as a safe haven they they know they there's a real thirst for buying Bitcoin because they've got you know a shitty money which doesn't work properly and soon we'll have shitty monies which don't work properly because the the fear of currencies which government has is a very bad version of fear currency but what I would my point before was that you know with this technology we can have much better versions of soft of soft money and if you look at modern monetary theory on just appreciating that yes the like you say the world is not binary you know there's no good and evil that's just politics there's varying grays and there's a big spectrum and there's quality in in a lot of things so you know hard money has all these wonderful properties which we'll appreciate of course but soft money also has some properties which are good and are useful but we've just got to make sure that you know they can't just print money willy nilly and then pump value into their friends stocks and they don't have their filthy filthy greasy fingers over the money supply and I think that's achievable man to like some sort of federated token across regions democratically controlled yes it's maybe not the Bitcoin revolution we all want but it's a hell of a lot better than the horrible filthy fear money we've got now and like you say in that background there's Bitcoin and it's every 10 minutes it's banging that drum but what's great about Fiat money now is they just printed electronically they never even have to get their hands dirty they just print electronic Fiat money giving it the name sorry yeah moving on to the exit question exit question will there be a coronavirus vaccine before the United States election in November will that be the October surprise then arc no suddenly no there won't be one but Trump will say there will be one every week until the last week before the election when it becomes clear that it's not happening but no that's something you want to keep saying you want to say and you want to say something like what they said during Vietnam that you know I have the cure my opponent does not have the cure and if my opponent wins he I will not release the cure that's not there everyone likes the cure moving on to issue four bitfinex bounty on August 2nd 2016 bitfinex was hacked with the hackers absconding with just shy of 120 thousand bitcoins from the exchange at the time the funds were worth only a poultry sixty five million dollars but now their value has expanded to a substantial one point three billion dollars and the company would like their Bitcoin back in fact they'd like it back so much they're willing to give the hacker a 30% reward for the recovery of the funds no questions asked 30% of the now one point three billion dollars would be a cool four hundred million dollars Thomas Hunt I ask you will bitfinex's strategy be successful will they get their Bitcoin back well I think I could go in a lot of ways with this first of all obviously right now I think that the hackers have 100% of the bitcoins so it's very difficult for me to think about the hackers responding and negotiating to get less than what they have now but given the story of the alleged Twitter hackers perhaps what the hackers have is a hundred percent of some Bitcoin that they can't spend it's been about four years since this hack whereas the Twitter hackers only took a couple of weeks we do have a different kind of hacker here we have someone that's at least patient and willing to wait I think the same thing the bitfinex money has probably been split up into a bunch of little accounts and the hacker think that's that worked and that's great but we all know that chain analysis and other companies are out there monitoring the Bitcoin blockchain the blockchain itself is transparent and every Bitcoin wallet download the full version of it so it's pretty easy to say there could be a lot of researchers who are tracking this Bitcoin and have access to that data so in that way maybe this 30% is a good deal for the hackers they come in something happens something something they get some clean money I don't know whether they're going to get clean Bitcoin or clean Monero or some kind of other thing meet them somewhere with a suitcase I don't know how the hackers are going to get paid in this but 30% sounds like a pretty good deal if you can't get any of it at all if you can only get zero again just an amazingly huge hack as I recall from the time bitfinex had a deal with the security company that security company would monitor their transactions and sign the outgoing transactions it was the company with the keys and do you know the name of that security I got a member of my own you want to use the work app before Casa Hottle but anyway it was a really big deal to kick myself I think of it but I'm sure what was the what was the ask back would like workflow though because they had this you know just currently providing this multi-sake thing but then didn't they like come on what it was but I remember the time they were supposed to be verifying it but they didn't check the verifications so it really just became like a rubber stamp on the way and that you were approved you're like you you've been approved you're approved and everyone gets approved and the hackers figured this out and they just kept withdrawing from everyone's account until they got you know 120,000 bitcoins which seemed like a lot at the time and really seems like a lot now so it's interesting to see the story come back again slightly different twist with a 30% Ben what about you would you give it up 30% presumably clean money the hackers currently have it all though yeah man but I mean I mean I would personally as a human being but I mean I think that this is the opposite end of that spectrum for the Twitter hack and I would be surprised if it's a state actor I mean some of the the biggest like beginning with Stuxnet you know some of the larger hacks which have happened in the world have been collaborations of state or state actors because you need a big team of people to work on something so I and just because of the very professional way which this that hack the Bitfinex hack was executed and subsequently how the money's been and they've tried to wash the money and they've moved money to small wallets and things this seems fairly professional so yeah it's a good move like Bitfinex well done like yeah that's the answer just off from so it's certainly clean bounty for the money and that everyone's happy everyone walks away with with you know and more than they had when they started which is great but yeah it was 2016 and going back to our last point the reason Bitfinex didn't go the way of metal gocks was because they printed a token a debt token and then they had a haircut and they issued a debt token to have all of their users it was very like authoritarian like no one really had a choice that it was going to happen but it meant that Bitfinex didn't have to just shut down and and you know everyone's funds didn't get gobbled up by lawyers and whatever else and it just continue to to operate and then people eventually got their money back through through the debt token there's another example of you know a kind of soft money intervention fiscal stimulus stopping something going bankrupt for the better over there will be a round now to make this offer had that not happened well it's a difficult thing that no one likes to talk about when everyone says oh why doesn't the government just spend the money they have and if I ran my business or if I ran my checkbook like this you know deficit spending all of these things but then it's that deficit spending that saved their company it's the deficit spending that saved everyone's Bitcoin like you're saying they didn't have to go through this crash and the point is they're not like you you know that it's just like a a sovereign currency like the British pound or the US dollar like I can't print my own currency to get myself out of debt I can't do it you know I can't or to repay you know my whatever I need to pay I can't just print currency you know I have to use the sovereign currency I'm using um like whereas these countries can bit for next can they print this debt token uh and I think there's a real sort of success story really you know it meant that everyone could carry on using the the the service the other option would be to go in the way of Mount Gawks and that's they were just shut down uh the the amount of money is phenomenal isn't it like what is it how many a billion so 1.3 billion yeah it's a lot of money it's a lot of money so yeah hopefully hopefully that yeah they'll accept the 5% bounty but if they don't I'm gonna assume it's some stay actor and they're just holding it in their portfolio but you know when they want to take over the world so the real question is will they come back next year and offer 40% are they going to offer 50% are they going to keep doing this obviously this company even if Bitfinex wasn't in exchange this debt would still be there and there's still some kind of a prospector some kind of a debt collector out there who's gonna say hey I'll buy out that Bitfinex debt we'll run some web page if you have any information about the Bitfinex at call this phone number I mean they're gonna why not trying to mind this thing especially if you know to everyone's horror if the Bitcoin price goes up another 10x this becomes a 10 billion dollar debt this marker out there uh so again yeah they can just come back and say yeah we'll pay you what it was originally worth we'll just give you that money back sure yeah it's a well even well right now I mean the 65 million they're offering them 400 million so the initial hack 100% would have been 65 million which nice nice chunk of change right they're essentially offering them 400 million uh which I don't know that's you know it's three or four times uh the 60 so yeah there's a lot more money out there also I did remember the name of the company that was doing the security and the keys I remember it in a fun about way so I'll tell you at one point this company tried to copyright multi signature the idea of multi signature Bitcoin transactions and everyone freaked out and that's when Peter Todd taught me how to remember their name he said uh it go fuck yourself it go that's what it was it go well uh in a roundabout way but yeah I did get it uh no no thanks to you chat where were you on that one chat I don't know you guys have fallen off recently but uh let's move on to the exit question uh this one's coming at you Ben exit question during every epoch of Bitcoin price history will we look back on the bitfinex hack in the same way we remember the Bitcoin pizza and the mount gocks or will it be forgotten I'll be too busy worrying about my stupid like lightning sat faucets where I gave away a couple of thousand sats here a couple of thousand sats there so I'd be too busy knowing about all the money I bloody lost it doesn't seem again a lot of us are going to have to have therapy and such to go through the regrets of uh selling you know point one at 20 dollars or giving away Bitcoin or losing Bitcoin and everyone of course no one could hold as much as they wanted and all those things but yeah I I think it'll come back every year um but then again I forgot this one it was it's so big it's a billion dollars uh the anniversary rolls around and it didn't go off in my head till I read this article so if they weren't writing an article if they weren't mentioning this 30 percent bounty uh we might have just let it slide whereas it seems to me the mount gocks is just so cemented in our history it's such a big thing so many people lost all their money and then the pizza thing is the first financial transfer of Bitcoin the first you know using it of a value transfer so that's always going to be talked about but yeah I've got my worst one I've heard I've heard a lot of people losing money on Bitcoin obviously and a lot of it's through trading so stay away from trading um but the worst one was one of my friends uh he had like I think it was 3,000 Bitcoin all their bucks and then I'm lost the private key still got the public key so just looks at them every now and then it's just like yeah it's my Bitcoin can't do anything with it but that's my Bitcoin and it's just there I had to take it on the blockchain like they're always going to be there there's nothing you can do about it even the best there's a story today I read it was considering it for the show is about a zip file and the guy had 120 bitcoins in a zip file and uh he locked out the version of zip that he used was an incredibly weak cipher and he got this hardcore computer guy to figure it out and he wrote a you know structure of how they're going to attack it then because of uh infrastructure now they just bought like cloud computing or whatever it only took him 10 days in the the running the software which they thought would take months and it's a guy a ton of money cracked the password got the password got him his Bitcoin back didn't steal them he didn't give them the full zip file there's a bunch of hackery stuff going on there but yeah they got the money back out of the zip file so it can't happen but not on the blockchain that being cryptid yeah the worst the worst I've heard I mean I've heard lots of horrible things and lots of people who didn't buy and I didn't buy and all that but uh people who actually bought actually had it and actually spent it um a friend of mine definitely spent thousands of Bitcoin uh to stream porn and yeah I think like he had a credit card he could have bought it with another thing he would have had no problems he had money um but at the time it was so innovative and amazing to be able to buy anything even digital access to pornography with Bitcoin just to spend it and to get something uh was amazing so those are the pioneers uh that we need to value like a lot of people would just make fun of that and be like oh that's a billion dollars no you laws uh no if he didn't spend it if your friend didn't lose it if everyone else didn't spend it along the way and trade it and lose it and all these things no one ever would have heard about it no one ever would have been interested in it it was those people taking their chances and again we always thought it'd be worth pennies I thought the internet has a currency that's great you know it should be worth pennies it should be cheap and easy to send around there was never any reason to inflate this crazy thing and none of the early miners saw it that way a lot of the other people didn't ever see it this way even this idea of a one Satoshi equals one dollar or whatever people are trying to sell these days uh no one thought it would do that and especially this fast i've ten years now so i can't help feeling that our it was too controversial but i just i think we were just in the bootstrap period anything until we've like almost mind the last bit coin is the bootstrap period how do you bootstrap you have a small cap on it um anyway that's a headache for future generations to think about reaching the 21 million but it's possible can happen well let them worry about it because we've got to worry about issue five bonus issue bit main in crisis formally the most powerful bitcoin mining company in the world and major bit coin cash supporter bit main has fallen upon hard times delaying the shipments of its ant miner bit coin miners by three months while co-founders jihon woo and mycrizon katon battle for control of the company Ben arc i ask you who will win who cares and does bit main really matter anymore it's amazing i i remember um uh quite someone was it you know one of the big cash stuff was kicking off and jihon uh started you know becoming a passage about actors was about active but you know outwardly being a bad actor and i remember really being very concerned over just the amount of money they had the amount of power they had the amount of control they had over bit coin mining and just thinking Jesus these like how do you even come come back this thing how how can you beat them they've just got so much power within bit coin what jihon's had so much power and and i couldn't see how he would how they would ever lose that power um unless they were complete idiots um which they were so great you know it worked out in the end um and that's already found jihon is a smart guy he was a clever guy but i don't know i think he just fell in love with his own mythology or something you know he was you know he was pretty early on bit coin earn i think he was the first person to what was it to translate the white paper into chinese he used that pretty early on um uh and it was you know it was kind of a shame that he went the way he went but uh you know i i i don't know too much about bit main but i know there's been some hilarious stories or on your actual physical fist fights between him and what's the other guy uh micro they always come with me yeah um uh and that there's uh like they're they're suing each other they're taking over the to come to each other because the company and blah blah it's just complete incompetence it's um yeah yeah but i i thank god you know i wish you know myself now could go back and tell the 2060 inversion of me that it's gonna be okay jihon we're just gonna unravel himself like any bad guy give him enough time and enough string and he'll hang himself um uh so yeah i mean that's pretty much all i've got sound i mean they they they they were the at least that's you can't even underestimate how much power they had over bit coin at one point um uh but uh i mean i and to be honest it's it's testament to all the great work of all the people who've been working on you know uh the free and open source uh mining not something open source it's the it's like a copy left thing isn't it for the mining hardware what was that called you remember what that was called where they they so if you so you could use this this mining oh come on what it's called but if you if you used it it's kind of like free and open source you would then have to keep it um uh uh not unpainterable you can't be unable to paint it but yeah i'm sort of rabbating on now but um and then people like Matt Carallo as well who've done a lot of great work around mining and decentralizing mining and uh making it easier for people in mining pools to have more of a say of of signaling for upgrades and whatever um so yeah it's uh it's uh they were a bad actor they were a huge bad actor and uh bit coin fixed it anti-fagiar bit coin found the bug fixed it so great it it is amazing to be where we are looking back on the uh uasf a few years later and looking at these wars uh i agree with Ben that they were big bad actors i'd say they were they were essentially James Bond villains uh you have to pick jihon there stroking the cat you know the white cat on his lap and just the amount of evil that he had going on and i don't think that they were idiots i think they were gamblers and i think they went for the whole thing if they had won and if the bit coin brand and everyone had moved over to bit coin cash they would have had such a strong position in bit coin cash the currency bit coin cash the miners and most importantly bit coin cash the get hub repositories it was always about control of the code and the corporations wanted a system where they said hey we need a bigger block size call up the programmer yo we need a bigger block size programmer says yes that's the system that they wanted that's what the debate was about uh as the other system worked out you say hey we want a bigger block size you start going through all these conferences and all these debates and all these mailing lists and all these scientific papers and all these back and forth and this discussion that goes on for years and look like it may never end there was a lot of fear of the scientific discussion taking over and this be going back to a college project and not a consumer project and all these but then somehow the uasf cut through the noise it had a deadline it had a date i think they'd figured out at that point that the longer the asick boost side could keep mining the more money they made so they actually won by delaying the process which led to the date which was a deadline and really did seem like Ben was saying like that we were going over the falls and i remember i could feel the split coming i could feel the um you know be cash or bitcoin too or whatever they're going to call it at the time and uh you know i tried to have a bunch of uh interview shows i interviewed Roger Veer and Jimmy Song and James Lynn and a bunch of people at anyone i could get just to talk about like Peter Todd all these people so that we could talk about bitcoin and scaling and uh to see if there was any credence to this other side and uh while Roger did his very best to convince me and i gave him the floor i let him talk freely i didn't question him the whole time uh the next couple nights talking to jameson talking to peter talking to jimmy all these people they convinced me the other way so strongly uh that i just continued with the uasf and then we continued with the no two x movement uh where i was going to say i think you're sounding yourself short time is because honestly like infinite respect to you because the the sort of direct action like anarchist you know no two x movement was really important um and uh uh you know we had a what we'll credenoke had a much larger view of base back then but it it it it was such it was just an important movement um it really brought the idea that we don't have to two x that we could just have segway um to the forefront for people and uh it was huge it was huge on on on on twitter it was just sort of a social phenomenon like you had the uasf uh movement as well was was uasf that was that was no two x was fur no no two x was first wasn't it and then uasf we had just one we had won the uasf and it worked and like they'd all say it didn't work and they're all these things they said there's a hong kong agreement and they're like i made this agreement we said we're gonna double the block size and there was all this kind of linguistic talk where they're like you said you're gonna double it therefore you must double it wasn't you wasn't you wasn't no two x your like after who came up with a tag no two x because it's just that's a thing it's good good uh publicity well i mean i i i was one of the first people to hand add it to my twitter handle and to say like no two x uh how to prove that or whatever but that was one of the first things and then the other things i noticed with that is that was just when i'd started the mad tour and getting out to europe and uh the first conference i went to i was thinking about today because it's the only time i've been in paris um but it was in paris and it was the breaking bitcoin conference and uh jimmy and i showed up and i crashed in jimmy so tell her that night and uh we showed up the next morning at the conference and uh there were no two x stickers uh there were like hidden slides in every speech where everyone would like stop their speech and they'd be like oh by the way and like a big picture of incredible people and they're like no two x i think it's a bad idea and and it was the first time where we really said it was because i thought you know i didn't want it the computer geeks didn't want it we were just this being caution we are seen as these over cautionary people where they're like oh you don't want to raise the block size just because you're worried about weighing down the airplane that circling the globe 365 to you know all the time all these things and i was like yeah of course i worried about that of course i've worried about weight on the airplane that's constantly circling the globe and we refuel in mid-air and it hasn't landed in you know 10 years i mean yes of course i'm worried about that airplane um so yeah but at that conference i think everyone really came together and they're like yeah this is out there and uh it's neat i saw this old article about the conference and uh it was a close-up picture of my laptop and had a no two x sticker on it and uh you know that's where it really started and took off and that was another one just like this one we we shouldn't have won against ghan uh bit made tons of money tons of marketing uh they you know they're big uh financial people serious people suits they have a whole company infrastructure um the you know the bitcoin uasf movement we didn't have that at all uh we had samson with the hats uh world crypto network and a couple of so many people like me who were you know obviously we love bitcoin but there was always this worry around the amount of power which miners had and then for the miners to be told now it's the users who control bitcoin you work for the users you know we pay you to secure the network um uh it it it just made bitcoin something completely something you know absolutely amazing like it took away all our offer and reservations around bitcoin um and uh you know it was a shame that there there was some split in the community but they like you say they were the baddies like ghan woo who's just such a baddie such a bon villain and then he had like rick falcoy to this eye patching with crazy macafee and like cray cray cray cray right as well you see photos of them and not on the fucking pido as well the pido guy um uh what's his name the gambling uh what's his name the the guy backs cray right now on bsv uh calvina and uh they're just clearly the baddies like you know see a picture of them you just like they just look like baddies so yeah it's probably probably during during the arguments i want to state this again the during the arguments ghan went on twitter and he posted a picture of i want to say it was like the jones town suicide one of these the one where they drank kool aid and actually they were forced to drink kool aid historical fact but everyone refers to it as a big cult suicide where they drink kool aid and he had put uasf on the image like he'd altered the image to put uasf and he was saying that basically we were a bunch of cult nuts that were all committing suicide that's how harsh it got during this you know debate online and so on so forth so that's why if ever people are mad about ghan or they're like fuck ghan or you see this whole thread of like ghan hate they tried to take over Bitcoin and again you know bans calling them bad and stuff or whatever they had billions of dollars to gain they went for big ring they would have been the kings of bitcoin to bitcoin cash whatever it was going to be they would have been beyond king so they were in a strong position they went for a much stronger position and they lost and not the end again blaming for the money but they were going to win big so i'm saying man like roger's lost out of a lot of money well they all have they've all lost out of a lot of money by by thinking that they can control bitcoin which they clearly can't talking about guys also talk about some of the good guys and props to shalon fry back of the day you know a bit bit once i'm 75 he was the guy who you know i think well luke dutch junior was a person said that we could do sequels the soft fork but then i think it was shalon fry who then came up with the idea of the user activated soft fork i think um yeah but he did a lot of the same problem idea like the main programmers weren't in favor of it they had that big sheet like the list and it's like do like it or not and they're all like they all like didn't like it um and it was only the public that really was like well we just draw a line in the sand we're just going to turn this thing on and like you're saying with the miners controlling bitcoin something about that miners signaling for the upgrade uh that flag got misinterpreted that was something that they gave to the miners as a like okay are you ready everyone ways your flag when we're ready and it got changed into this i approve of the upgrade and that the power shifted to the miners and one of the really good things about one of the interviews i did with Eric lumbroso is that Eric like said very strongly and it even got quoted in somebody's article and and he said yeah we'll never use that again like we're never going to make the mistake of making it look like the miners are in control of a software upgrade that was a you know computer programmer error uh they took advantage of us used a game theory type thing to you know get an advantage that you know we didn't even see that coming and uh it was a complete misinterpretation so uh let's bring it up as well as well like it can be brutal like the good ideas make their way through and if you're not on the right side of history then you know you get an elbow in the face like i i think most people who work open source projects appreciate the sometimes the brutality of the way in which it marches towards progress um so they've got the elbow in the face like it's nice to joke while the time about like if you're not good the internet will replace what you do with software and then you get happened with bit pay where bit pay pissed off uh Nicholas Dornair so much that he started writing btc pay server and now it's looking like btc pay server might outstrip bit pay and just completely eat them and their idea and uh you know this couldn't happen uh just it's poetic justice right it's that irony again going back for just it happens to the nicest people not like they deserve it or anything and the um it's it's great to win it's great to win over someone strong like jihon and bit main and to have bit coin go on uh but at the same time it's important to uh keep track of what winning really means uh we are the you know more of the american revolutionary they were the paid heshin soldiers uh they get to go home you know they get paid for fighting the war we get the land the freedom you know not necessarily the wealth or the values there's no uh billion dollars for this side uh but we did win uh which it's nice it's pretty good huh so yeah and whenever whenever try someone tries to claim that you know a small cluster of people control bit coin you point to that say look look history didn't happen when happened again it does it does seem impossible and we should talk about more we should get more examples up here and do some more interviews it's uh we should do some interview with you now we're first independent stay we should do like a series of uh you know the USS you know looking back now USF uh revolution commemoration well but now we've got to move on to the exit question get ready Ben exit question can you name another company in any under in in any other industry who has fallen so far and so fast as bit main from mining titan and coins splitter to delaying orders and battles for control in just three years Ben arc no no i actually can't like they really have followed they they were worth billions they had so much money in the bank they had everything we're going for they had the miners they had yeah no i can't and they may not want they may not have any company which has fallen from grey so so steeply they did have an incredible position they were going to be almost monopolistic in their control of the industry uh but there have been a couple of others i just thought right now of uh when i was looking at my computer i was like oh of course is zero zero ox had the mouse and the had the computer they had the graphical user interface they could have dominated the whole industry uh but my original example was going to be codec codec had the digital camera before anyone else uh they just didn't know what the hell to do with it uh they didn't have any consumer application for it they didn't want to endanger their film business they made a lot of money on film if you can believe that um but yeah they had the digital camera they had the the thing that captures the light turns it into an image uh the ssd or whatever it's called they they had it and they blew it and kodak doesn't even exist today except for this bizarre scandal with the president where now all of a sudden they're a medical equipment company but they seem mainly involved in manipulating the price of their stock which is allegedly the same thing they did when kodak announced a bitcoin miner so it all comes back to bitcoin kodak is my pick for that good choice all right and we're moving on to prediction or a story of the week then are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week go ahead uh just that we've had the independence day and that was cool but i do wish that it was still called the uh your sf day as shaman fry said in 2018 happy your sf day uh but the independence day is kind of a little bit more catchy um just be careful out there don't like try trading because obviously shit coins upon paying these these is going to pump but they're also going to dump just just hold your bitcoin buy bitcoins and uh that's really it i haven't really got much else um just uh it was just it was it was a good experience but the independence day was really great is um uh and it kind of felt very pivotal as a moment in time um reminding everyone why bitcoin you know can't be coerced and uh and then top the price pump as well it just just felt really well timed so um i hope the phone momentum continues because we're all a bit of a buzz for us so it's good it is also difficult for the price to pump when i'm not on tour everyone's waiting for me to go on tour so the price could pump uh even recently the price pump kind of coincided uh with a little movement that i did i did move a little bit so uh not quite as fun as a tour uh but the price did go up uh if you'd like to donate bitcoin and support this show you could donate now using the qr code on your screen it's on tally coin we've also got some links in the description uh be sure to check out world crypto network at worldcryptoneatwork.com or right here on youtube we've got a brand new interview about solar powered bitcoin full nodes in africa uh so check that right out here with chris ellis and ben arc right here on the world crypto network we've also got the youtube we've got the podcast although i haven't updated it in a while uh so i need to update the podcast to it that's about it we're heading towards the end of the show here uh be sure to give us a thumbs up and a share subscribe down below uh all that kind of stuff really helps us with the youtube hey check out the t-shirts at worldcryptoneatwork.store uh i got one uh they're pretty cool so uh i think that's about it ben anything else you want to say in closing no man just uh yeah i want probably good day enjoy the weather and uh stay safe all right thanks so much for joining us until next time bye bye