The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. Hi, Dan here. Sorry, technical difficulties. I just used theodrop off. Okay. Hey. Eo Goodman from Proof of Work Media. Good evening, everyone. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Google's really giving us today because we're doing it on a Thursday. Everything breaks on a Thursday. Moving on to issue one, BitMain IPO expires. The Hong Kong Stock Exchange announced today that they are moving BitMain's IPO application into the inactive file. The company could still reapply for IPO, but they would have to provide additional financial records, including the documents from their disastrous recent quarters and their massive B cash investment. It was to be a billion dollar IPO. G-Han was the smartest guy in the room, but they turned their back on Bitcoin, bought more than a million B cash and lost their technological edge. Although it was never what we wanted, we did predict it right here on the Bitcoin Group. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Dan Eave, is this the end of the BitMain IPO? Is this the end of BitMain? And what does it mean for Bitcoin? Well, I mean, overall, it's not looking good for BitMain. I was reading that Samson Moe pointed out that the units have been underperforming and historically they've underperformed. These ones are likely to underperform. And because they're not on the 10-metre nanometer process. And yeah, it seems like they've really, really been left behind compared to other companies. And they're in such a good position before the whole B cash thing happened. And it's amazing how many pies have been completely destroyed by it. And yeah, the wall still goes on. So I think the mainstream media is probably going to take it as a, you know, there'll be a chance of Bitcoin is collapsed or Bitcoin's dead. And there'll probably be an obituary again somewhere or a few of them. Because of the people just assuming a bit, bit main is Bitcoin, for example. But yeah, it's sad to see them go. I think to be honest, because they could have been so good if they hadn't, you know, had their, you know, their, what was it called? The ant bleeds? Is that ant bleeds? It does seem like they ant bled. Yeah, they have ant bled, yeah. But, you know, they, they were too shifty and unfortunately, they's come around to buy them now. And we're told from the audience, the show is going out in audio only. So thanks to YouTube for all your help running today's show. We're just going to go with the audio only. So stay tuned and picture us, you know, wearing suits and continuing to do the graphics, even though it doesn't matter. Theo Goodman, your thoughts on the bit main IPO disaster. Well, yeah, so far it's a disaster. But, you know, it's just like, it's just like crypto. The whole market went down and bit main went down with it. You know, they doubled down on a few things that, you know, like, like, you know, yeah, they had a big advantage at one point. But I mean, one, you know, making somehow pulling together and getting one chip that's better than others for, for a period of time, that could be enough to change it. So I don't, I don't think they're totally gone or anything. That being said, let's see, what do we have? Butterfly labs, what are their mining companies are out there? Flow attack on, flow attack, alpha tech, by script minus. And, can you see, can you see, and X many scam ones that might have produced hardware or might have not produced hardware, you know, not mention all the mining contract bullshit. But so, you know, that it's a tough mining is a tough game. Mining is a very tough game. This is another, this is more evidence of it. They, they, has other investments besides mining. Okay, they, I guess they went in all in B cash. That pretty much wrecked them. You know, they have like root stocks. I don't know what else is on there holding still. But it definitely wasn't enough to hedge, hedge their investments. So, you know, let's see, I could imagine that if they can survive, that if the market turns, that they'll be back. And I wouldn't be totally surprised to see an IPO actually. Well, and what's a member of Theo brings up a good point here that Bitmain did actually make miners. They actually made miners. They shipped them to customers. They were a real company. We've had so many here, like the OZ butterfly lab, so many others who never shipped or made a product, but didn't ship it or shipped too late or too slowly. Bitmain always delivered their miners in the condition they were. We had the disagreements over scaling and the bug that they put into their miners, the back door that they put into their miners. We had all kinds of confusions and issues there with Bitmain. But once again, like we said before, we didn't really want to see them go out of business. This is not a good story for Bitcoin that one of our unicorns is in trouble and one of our unicorns isn't going to make its IPO. You know, well, this happened in the end. I don't want to get ahead of the exit question. But yes, it's not good for Bitcoin to see a big company like this go down. So Theo is back with us. Is the answer question you're almost Dan anything else on this before go to the exit question? Yeah, I was going to say I can't be too odd on Bitmain. I bought D3s from them. They outperforms what the hash rate said. And they serve me pretty well. So I was quite happy with them. So I can't be too harsh. But it's sad to see a company go down that could have done so well. And I think they've still got a chance. They've still got a fine chance. People, I think they might get bought out something like that. Go through the IPO and it might be successful because they've got that base that they've built already the user base, the technology to build on. We'll see. And remember, they bet big on B cash. They tried to take over a Bitcoin. If they had won, they would control Bitcoin now. So they made a big play for a big win and they didn't get it. But they got close. They had a chance. It wasn't impossible. If you look at that play, gaining control over all of Bitcoin, gaining control of Bitcoin development, being able to shape it the way that profits and succeeds for your company, that's a good play. Having the 30% advantage on the miners because of the ASIC boots, that was a good play. They broke every rule. They could. They went all the things they could going all the way to the top. And it's one of those. They almost made it, right? They almost made it. And like Theo says, they might still be out there. But let's move on to the exit question, exit question, even giants can fall. Will the humbling of Bitmain at the hands of the Almighty Bitcoin and the international worldwide Bitcoin community stand as a lesson for those who have turned their back on Bitcoin? Or will they ignore it at their own peril? Dan Eve. I, I am going to hope that they do a U-turn and I'd like to see them go, wow, we're incredibly wrong. How foolish were we? We are all 100% Bitcoin now, no B cash. And this is the way she's going to roll. Theo Goodman. I think. I don't think that ASIC boots gave him a 30 gave a minor 30% advantage, but we can go back to that. Ignore at their own peril is the correct answer. And the reason is is because they shouldn't have so much of any coin like that on their books. They should, they're, they're mining a hardware company. They should be making miners for whatever shit coins and Bitcoin and whatever else and stick to that. They seem to be pretty good at that. So instead of trying to, and don't have so much of one coin on your books and don't let ideology get in the way of you doing business. So unfortunately, I think that that might happen again. So that's why Ignore at their own peril is the correct answer. Theo's right. They did make an unnecessary political move choosing B cash, investing heavily in B cash, essentially betting the farm or betting the firm here. They could have lost it all, but the elephant in the room here of course is coin base, coin base quickly becoming the new cryptocurrency, adding hundreds of new altcoins soon, coin base turning their back on Bitcoin hundreds, thousands, I don't agree with it. It's turning the back in the bowl. There's coin bases turning the back on Bitcoin because of adding shit coins. I think it's more for hiring, you know, hacker assassins or whatever you want to call them. It has more way more than listing ripple or something, you know, not just that they list ripple. They put up advertisements telling you how you can take your valuable Bitcoin and turn them into shit coins. Their entire business depends on transaction fees. So if you're buying and holding Bitcoin, you're making no money for coin base. We need you to hire and trading and buying and changing and buying and trading and all have anything against that. Honestly, I don't have anything against exchanges listing whatever they want. People can, I mean, it's a free market and, you know, people like to trade and collect things and do whatever and people might like ripple, maybe ripple serves the utility for them. I mean, I don't see how, but maybe they think it does. There is the original version of coin base, the Vanguard of the new economy, the leaders and the digital currency. And now there's a leaders in digital assets that might be worth something. Who knows? It's just like a different position to be in. I'd prefer to be in the promoting the digital gold business where you can kind of trust what you're selling and have a good product. I think coin base is more like whatever it takes to sell a lot, that's our product. Yeah, but the thing is if people want to buy though, you know, let's face it, Bitcoin is the one, but there's still other things that people want to try and kind of niche is like cool little, you know, like the meme chain coin stuff like that. It's got that kind of appeal to it, like, you know, almost comic book collecting, that sort of thing. There's these kind of different, you know, niches of thing. And we're going to see a lot more of that with like art and stuff coming on, you know, being tokenized and I think there's going to be, yeah, a lot more tokens than we think. It's obviously going to be the main ones, the highest market caps and they absolutely dominate, but I don't think we're ever going to see the end of tokens. They're just going to keep on multiplying like mogwais, like sprinkling on mogwais. At least with comic books, you can read them moving on to issue two issue two negative fee ETF. A new article claims that Bitcoin should be up in arms if the SEC approves a negative fee ETF before a Bitcoin ETF. The salt negative fee Bitcoin ETF on its face sounds like a naked Ponzi scheme. The fund is desperate to get back to a hundred million dollars, so it will pay you to invest. For every hundred thousand dollars you invest, you get five dollars back. The marketing stunt could cause enough popularity to reach the hundred million goal, which increases the likelihood they'll become a one billion dollar fund. Theo Goodman should Bitcoiners be upset if the SEC approves the salt ETF instead of the Bitcoin. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if they should or shouldn't, they will be. And ironically enough, the name of the ETF is salt because salty is what Bitcoiners will be when it gets approved. It doesn't make any sense though. I mean, who cares? It has nothing to do with crypto. It has nothing to do with why the authorities are not approving the Bitcoin ETFs as no relation to the salt ETF giving people cash back. So I don't really see an issue and I don't see an issue with doing the cash back. And actually the salt ETF is going to have low volatility stocks in it. So I think it's a totally different animal. I thought you could go with pouring salt on old wounds. Dan Eve. Yeah, I mean, I don't understand why people would be that cheesed off. It's not that similar. And I don't, I wouldn't want to think of it as too similar because it kind of sounds, well, it sounds like a, it sounds like a, you know, too good to be true. And everyone that always says that if something's too good to be true, then it's bad. But the low cost ETF sounds like it literally sounds like it would be like, I don't know, the shifting free to bottom 200 coin market cap share coins. But in terms of the ETF, I think that much ETF kind of decision time was in 2017 was like probably one of the most electrifying moment. So much hype and it was just really cool. And I would like to see it, you know, an ETF. It does seem like the volatility is a bit lower, maybe that will help things at the moment. You know, and now that exchanges have been, lots of foul plays been identified. That might help them clean up their rack. And therefore, there'll be more transparent exchanges being, you know, more, more completely transparent in terms of where their funds are, the hot wall, it's cold wall, it's et cetera, you know, without compromising security. So it could lead to good things that actually end up getting the ETF approved. Well, I think the Bitcoiners should be up in arms. If they approve this obvious Ponzi scheme, they don't make anything, they don't do anything and they'll pay you to invest. It sounds like a Ponzi scheme from top to bottom. It also, you mentioned the shit coins. It sounds like the shit coins. If only we could get to 100 million, then we'll be a real project. Then we'll get to a billion and the government will just say, well, I guess we can't regulate that because it's too big now. Whoops. Exactly. But so that, but if you, if you summarize that though, that means you're annoyed because they're approving as a Bitcoin, from a Bitcoin perspective, you're annoyed because they're approving a different Ponzi scheme. That's right. Well, they call Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but then an actual real Ponzi scheme comes along and they can't even see it. No wonder they can't tell that Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. They don't know they're up from down. Maybe the salt people just got a better bribe into the SEC than the Bitcoin people. We need to work on our bribing skills. Moving on to the exit question, when will the long awaited and long hoped for Bitcoin ETF be approved six months? One year, never. Theo Goodman. Never. Dan Eve. One year, I reckon. One year. One year, I reckon. The answer is longer than one year. This way you have to keep waiting and we get to talk about it three or four more times. Yay. Did you know the world crypto network has its own audio podcast? You can listen to the latest episodes of the world crypto network today at the world crypto network audio podcast on iTunes and wherever else audio podcasts are served. Subscribe today and give us a good review on iTunes. Issue three, EU copyright law. In a decision that rejected the will of more than five million online petitioners and more than a hundred thousand protesters, the EU parliament has passed the hated copyright in the digital single market directive. The law holds online services like Google and Facebook accountable for the content posted by their users and could put an end to memes, online commentary and social criticism. The law written by the copyright holders themselves will allow individual users to be sued and could have a chilling effect. Dan Eve will copyright finally be protected and these vile drag goons be brought to justice hoisted on their own pittard. Oh man, this is really scary when I first heard about it. And it still does now. And I remember when watching like when the result came out and there were people really celebrating it. And I was just thinking what are you celebrating? They probably got like, I don't know, like lots of shares in copyrighting, firms or something. I don't know. But the fact is that it's just going to get worked around by decentralized systems. There's going to be more systems that people can access that aren't censored and it's just going to go underground. And I think that if you take the kind of, if you try and censor some of the more extreme things in society, then you don't let the rest of the world see how crazy some of those ideas are and on the face of themself. So I don't know. I think it's kind of sometimes counterproductive to, you know, to censor. Sometimes the sense of certain things, but like, you know, I think it's going to be overboard at the moment. The ease got a very big sledgehammer at the moment trying to clamp down on this then the other and free speech. It looks like it's, you know, and free speech in terms of creativity. It looks like it's definitely being eroded. And that's not good. I imagine European VPN usage is about to go through the roof. Theo Goodman, your thoughts on the European copyright law? Yeah, Article 13. That's what it's, that's what it's basically called or even though there's more than one article of it, I think it's pretty wrecked. As you noticed, I think that parody and memes are officially not part of it. However, it's going to be kind of tricky because I still think it's going to be difficult to, you know, decide, you know, what is in for how it's going to be enforced. Yeah, I agree. It's going to be worked around. That's the internet. You can't, you know, that's what the internet's for basically, you know, you're going to be able, this is going to get so easily regulatory arbitrage. It's ridiculous. So I think it's just going to blow up in their face and they, all the people that, that got this past and are celebrating are going to get recklessly memed. Well, and this is the danger of having centralized platform like Facebook and Twitter. They know where to go to censor. They know where to target the laws. One since the beginning of the internet, and this is before cryptocurrency, talked about Unix, talked about Linux, talked about distributed servers, talked about instead of having one website, you put it on a dozen website. Instead of having one person host a torrent, you have thousands of people host a torrent. So this is the same old problem, but now it's coming home to the normal users, the normal users who got used to sharing a funny picture on Facebook, putting some words on it, sharing a picture on Instagram or Snapchat where they allow you to add the words right there in the app. That could now be criminalized. So it's a big problem for your, a big problem for individual users. And again, a good example of the kind of draconian law that you get presumably from an unfeeling parliament that is separate from the people. They don't know that normal users create memes and gifts. They don't know that people like making fun of politicians with their gifts. And if they use a copyrighted picture of David Bowie to do it, they're going to do it. They're not trying to make money off the David Bowie image so on and so forth. It's a complex thing that they're like dancing. They're trying to smash with a sledgehammer. They are just not really getting it. Yeah, you're right. You're right about that. I think that there is kind of a bit of a meme economy in certain areas, but the, and you can argue maybe that people who own copyrights are losing out to say a gift site that has memes on there that have copyrighted material. But that's just a stretch, you know, and these things, often I find that, well, I said, I've got no evidence based on, but I like to think that when someone creates a gift or a meme based on something, I certainly researched my memes. And so I ended up finding more about something that I would never have otherwise researched or watched or done. So I actually think it's a really good way of disseminating information and kind of snapshots and kind of sound bites, you know, plus just a shame, terrible, terrible business. I also think it's great anytime you have your own industry, writing the laws to regulate your industry. These are the same copy fighters that we had in the United States trying to make everything illegal so they could protect the record company. They tried the same thing to protect the movie companies. They just keep trying this. They're having problems now with television. I'm sure so on as go forth, streaming piracy, all these kind of things. We've had the same kind of things where the people don't like these, want these laws. The way the internet works is incompatible with these laws, yet the old world keeps coming back and giving us these laws that we don't want. Yeah, they even have, they're even jamming this hangout, I think. They really have had more technical things today than ever before. Because we mentioned this European copyright issue, be sure to give us a thumbs up and a share, even though this is an audio only episode today. Again, due to strange copyright or issues that we're having here, no one could connect to the hangout. Everyone's using their phones, Theos bounced on and off about 20 times. So we're having some super fun today. We must have said human animal hybrid or some other banned words. We need to be more careful in the title. I don't know. So moving on to the exit question, yes or no, will the internet put up with this draconian copyright, olshit, Dan Eve? No, no decentralized it. Theos. You know, you know what I mean. Theos, good man. No. And I agree the internet will not put up with it, although it takes much longer than it used to. The reaction isn't quite uniform. The internet is starting to fracture and break up. It's not all crazy forechan internet warriors anymore. We're starting to have different classes and some of them don't give a shit. Moving on to issue four, Vitalik goes political. Well, once he was just a kid who wrote articles for Bitcoin magazine, then, he was an undrained economist launching a complex world computer with smart contracts. Now he's back again as a political theorist with plans to solve all the world's problems. Saying that the early cipherpunk tradition of individuality might not be enough, the wonder kind is taking his first steps into a larger world. Dan Eve, will Vitalik booter in his new political ideas, which suddenly include liberal radicalism or radical market, a hybrid of socialism and capitalism that involves rethinking ownership structures and the way markets work, change the world for the better. And perhaps more importantly, is this good for Ethereum? Yeah, I kind of, I'm starting to see Vitalik. But now I don't know. But I'm not really a huge on politics, to be honest. I've almost had enough of Brexit recently and it's just everything's just too complicated when we can just chill out and get along. So I don't even know how far off it's mean. I'm pretty ignorant on that side. But I don't know. I think if he gets political, it could actually fracture Ethereum. So once that divide starts happening, and that's obviously not going to be good for it. So I think he's going to be watching his steps carefully. And all eyes are on him when Elon Musk stepped out of line or as the SEC called it, stepping out of line, he got his knuckles wrapped. That doesn't happen in crypto world from a regulatory perspective just yet. But from a community perspective, they come down hard and they come down fast and they will wreck you. Yeah, I think he's careful not to divide people is what I said. I just wanted to score some points with the libertarians in the office here and in the audience here and talk about how every time someone makes a billion dollars, they suddenly start rethinking ownership structures in the way that markets work. And I just think it's funny that Vitalik suddenly has these political ideas. He seems to be doing everything backwards. He created a massive cryptocurrency and a huge project. Then he learned about economics, then he learned about politics, then he learned about all the things that he's already involved in that are already happening to him. All of the many decisions they've already made in the way they affected their product and the market and all these things. I'm excited for his new direction. I think it's a good direction. We're being a little facetious today because it's fun, but it is good for him to expand. I'd say there's lots of books he can read. He could, as we're going to talk in the exit question, he could go to college. There's all kinds of ways for him to become a political theorist. Hanging out in a chat room or writing code is probably not the best way, but we'll see how that turns out too. Theo Goodman, your thoughts on Vitalik's new political direction. Oh, great. I'm not sure. And Theo has been censored by the EU government. So we'll see if Theo has been gone. But yes, we were talking about Vitalik. It's getting very contentious here. We'll see if Theo reappears. All right. Let's go. And he's gone. But yeah, he probably ran out of batteries or his internet connection for KIMT or something like that. I don't even know. That's not a word. I got to practice more. Well, we'll move on to the exit question. We'll wait for Theo to get back. Exit question. In a recent interview from the Proof of Work series right here on the World Crypto Network, we learned that Peter Todd once studied ceramics in college. If Vitalik Booterin returned to college or went there for the first time or maybe even visited one, what do you think he should major in? Dan Eve. Wow. Vitalik Boersey. So he's getting into college, isn't he? So what about... He'd be... So Eric, can you be someone to do some sort of... I don't know. Eric, can you be good at like gender studies or something? I don't know. I don't know why. It just popped to my head. But that interview with Peter Todd is absolutely awesome. If you haven't watched it, guys, check out the World Crypto Network Proof of Work interview with Peter Todd. It's absolutely amazing. Tom and Peter had a real good band tour, a bit of band to go and it was really cool. And in fact, all of the whole series is, and especially one is actually from Uncomfortable. And I'm actually wearing the T-shirt tonight, actually, wearing that Uncomfortable T-shirt. It was pretty cool. Definitely. And with Proof of Work with Dan Eve, that was a good one too. Hey. How about... Hey, Theo, do you want to talk about... Sensit. ...Talik and his new political direction. Yeah. I was talking and then I realized nobody answered. So I think that he's been a political theorist all along. I don't think this is anything new. If you look at the kind of comments he makes on Twitter, even some of the old writing and stuff, that all has political theory all in it, all sprinkled in. So I don't think that's new. What I was saying before I was blocked by Article 13 is that... Is that this kind of talk worries me in a different sense. I hope he doesn't pull a Dan Lairmer. Because when people start talking like this, it kind of makes me think he's signaling, I'm getting kind of bored of this project, you know? I should have done it different. I'm going to start a new project now for Talik Chain. It has something called radical markets. Yeah, because that is what worries me. He's going to be like, OK, well, that was fun. Later, guys. See ya. And it's got one of those thug life memes. Duh, duh, duh, duh. Mike Drop. Yeah, he might have. Yeah. When haven't they changed about Ethereum theorists? I saw another thing where ZCAD is making a bunch of changes. And it's like, when you look at the original project and you make a judgment, you're like, well, this and this and this and this doesn't work. And then they raise a billion dollars anyway. And then a few years later, they're like, hey, this and this and this and this and this doesn't work. We're going to change absolutely everything that you got in this project for from the beginning, because maybe it didn't make any sense the whole time. I think they changed absolutely everything. But they made some pretty big assumptions at the very beginning that everyone now, you know, that, you know, this is not going to be able to scale if you, you know, jam every smart contract onto every single node. Everyone gets that now. People have been saying that for a while. Now it's the case. I just want to point out that what demonstrated this most was not self-driving cars, was not supply chain management smart contracts, was not sound money, smart contract thingy, thingy, thingies or whatever. But it was memes. CryptoKitties was the final straw. It said, okay, this is not going to work. We're going to have to do something drastically different. So what are blockchains used for? What are block? They're basically, what is a theory amused for? Thearium is used to make ICO tokens and for gambling and for dank memes. And that's it. Those are the main uses. Now you might at least those are the uses so far. And I thought it couldn't be used for other things, but those are the uses so far. Now of course, if you're a Bitcoin maximalist, all the ICOs are scams. You say it enables scams. But it doesn't just enable scams because gambling is totally legit. And so are dank memes. So everyone needs to put everything in full context just to make sure. CryptoKaleftables. It was the CryptoKitties that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Moving on to the exit question, I want to answer it first. Obviously, Vitalik could study something that he's interested in like economics or political theory. Maybe even computer science would be nice. But I think physical education, the ability to build muscle mass, to eat protein, how to work out healthy living. If I was a billionaire like Vitalik and I could do anything I wanted, I would get swollen. So there it is. Vitalik's going back to school to get buff Rodney Dangerfield. He is roommate and they'll have a hot tub in their room. Theo Goodman. Now I can see him on Venice Beach. There it is. Venice Beach. A whole new Vitalik like you've never seen him before. Theo Goodman, what should Vitalik study if he went back to college or even went there for the first time? Damn, we're giving him a lot of attention. That was a lot. Culinary arts. The cooking, the cooking. When you have an area, it makes ability to cook. Toilet sense. Yeah, mixing contracts together to make something taste good. Now would he be eating only steak or is he allowed to eat other things? Oh, he can eat whatever he wants. I don't really care what people eat. They can eat whatever they want. He could have, he could be totally, maybe he can create a new diet movement. That could totally be possible. Who knows? There it is. Freedom for Vitalik. He can eat whatever he wants. It says in the chat, he should study dance. That's great. We're going to move on to the next question. Dance is a good choice. Dance is a good choice. What is Vitalik studying dance? Moving on. Theo's gone again. He's gone. Moving on. Issue five. Hackers. Epic story this week as Asus was hacked internally and then pushed the malware out to thousands of customers through their automatic updating tool. Outch. Sigmund-Poor based exchange Dragon X was breached for an as of yet undisclosed amount of cryptocurrencies. Meanwhile, Coinbeane, a cryptocurrency exchange which according to CoinMarketCap has allegedly more than $780 million in daily trades has gone dark with many traders worrying that the sudden maintenance is a cover-up for yet another devastating exchange hack. Is the fault dear Brutus in our stars or in ourselves? Yet again, I ask you, when will people stop leaving their money on exchanges? Why can't we build a perfect exchange and is Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies secretly the greatest test and justification for proper security for users of all levels, a complete raising of the entire bar for cybersecurity and maybe even data privacy for everybody? Dan Eve. Well, I mean, the exchange thing, as in putting your money on exchange and leaving it there is risk. You know, it's third-party risk. It's covered so often, but it's such an easy thing to kind of let go. I've done it before. I've got caught up in Bitgrow and been crispy. Maybe a few others. But the fact is that it was only small amounts, fractions amount. But the fact is, if you have your coins on an exchange, they aren't in your possession now. Although Bitcoin has sometimes hated on all coins, I think that they've also, all kinds of actually been innovative in ways that you've had integrated wallets with exchanges inside the wallet. So that actually allows you to have your private keys and control all your crypto and exchange within wallet. And I think that's a really cool thing. As Dex has become more solid, I know that ETHA Delta had a bit of an issue 2017, I'd have scared on that one. And there are still problems with Dex's, but the more people have the ability to hold their own private keys and hold their own crypto and not let it leave their wallet and still trade it, I think that's going to be a real positive, yeah, it's just going to be really positive for crypto. So hopefully we see more innovative ideas of how we can trade without giving up our crypto. Leo Goodman. What's the question you have for me? There's a lot of questions about hacking, people leaving their money on exchanges. When will people stop leaving money on exchanges? Never. Custody is a service that a lot of people need. And there's a lot of people that don't want to deal with bear assets, that don't have the ability to deal with bear assets and are going to need a custody solution. That is just how it is. It doesn't matter if it's crypto gold or bear bonds or whatever it is. There are people that don't want to and there's people that cannot and there's people that would rather have it on an exchange or some other service that actually has insurance that back it up and they're going to be willing to pay for this service. Now people that don't have that in mind why they're leaving it on there, I don't know, maybe just laziness or it is like trading until it's easier to have it on exchange. There could be a lot of reasons but there's plenty of reasons to leave it on exchange. I mean, in some cases you could argue maybe it's safer for some people because they don't know very much to just keep it on exchange. I mean, then it's a secure or password management basically. So it really just depends on the case. I think was this about the other, the hacking thing like with the laptop company updating everyone's computers? Yep, we also mentioned that. Well, that's never going to stop either and it doesn't matter because humans make machines and even if the machines operate everything, it doesn't matter because they were made by humans. I think Theo's absolutely right here. Custody is a service. It's in a service that the exchanges are offering and that they're failing on. Bitcoin is such a brand new asset. You can send it one way out of the account in just a few minutes. Once it's sent, it's gone. You can send all of it. This is a new situation for them. It's a new industry. Everybody's trying to hire the best minds and they're just not properly distributed to all these companies. So you are taking a risk if you go to a smaller exchange, a newer exchange. But then again, they have the new coin. You got to get the new coin. Like Dan was saying, a lot of people have no choice. If you want to get the new coin, sometimes they don't even have wallets. I think it was Cosmos or Tendermint. They keep changing their name. They recently released and everyone's all excited. It's a $15 million company and a billion dollar project and all this stuff. Their wallet is in beta and they suggest you don't use it. This has been two years now. They've been developing this project. My friend Jackson Palmer took him to task on Twitter for that. But no one else is really mentioning it. There's no standards for these companies. There's very little organization. It's unlikely if the wallets out at the same time the coin is brand new. You might have to buy it on exchange. Hold it. Hope that exchange doesn't go out of business. We've also heard questionable news recently on Twitter. Luke Dash Jr. was having a problem with HitBTC. Other people have reported that. HitBTC is responded. It says everything's fine. They're going to help him withdraw. But once again, you can keep it in exchange. You can keep it in your own wallets. It's up to you. Theo Goodman, you're back with us anymore on hacking and exchanges. Hacking and exchanges. What about the Asus thing? You say it was OK. They installed it on there. Aren't we going to see many more? All these centralized things are honeypots. Theo's fine with it. It's going to keep it up. It's keeping installing those. I didn't say that it's OK. I think that it's. Yeah. What's that? Oh, man. Yeah. Everyone's going to get wrecked. We're doomed. And Theo's OK with it. All right. Yeah. Good. Now, without the video, I can just make up anything I want. It's like the audio doesn't even exist. All right. Let's move on to the exit question. In Bruce Schneier's Seminole-Tone Secrets and Lies, Digital Security and Networked World, he professes that the human element is always the weakest link in security. Dan Eave, I ask you, is there only one final solution to this security problem? Will we only be safe when just the machines are trusted and the humans are removed? Or will we have bigger problems? Well, I think it all depends on how well as an X software tester, which I'm doing a lot of testing at the moment, anyway, on another project. Testing is key. I think that we are going to have loads of surprises with AI. And I think as long as these machines are tested to the end degree, and you've got Google producing their autonomous cars. And I think, did you ever see there's a survey online, actually, where this is website, and it gives you different scenarios. And it says, there's a man and a pregnant lady and a robber and then like a banker. And then it gives you directions that the car's going to go. And you've got to decide which people you're going to kill. And it's all towards training this AI. So obviously, they've been going to kill, training it to kill bankers. Yeah, yeah, basically. Yeah. But isn't it weird, actually, that unfortunately, when you think about it, if you are in a position where their technology they're rolling out has to make a decision, should it be programmed to be pre-active or should it just run its course? I mean, should it actively go and seek out people and kill them or be, you know, because it values certain lives over another. And that's really creepy territory. But be interested to see how that kind of pans out in future, because there's a lot of weird stuff around AI that we haven't really thought about yet. Like there was one of the programs recently that was in Westworld. I'm really watching much of it, but how it kind of dealt with the rights of robots and things. And this incredible kind of way of thinking, because some of these robots are really lifelike. And I'm actually, with my Alexa, which I'll actually turn it off now, because I've got fed up of it, listening to my conversations, just piping up in the middle of stuff. But even with Alexa, I'm really polite. I'm like, oh, Alexa, hi there. Could you possibly do this for me, please? And then I say thank you after. So what are we going to be like when there's a robot, you know, in front of me? I'm going to feel guilty about giving it tasks. I'll be like, oh, no, don't worry. Don't bother doing the dishes. I'll do that. You just rest and recharge and do all that. I'll just finish these bits. This politeness is key. This will help you survive actually the robots. It will, yeah. I always tell everyone the seminal movie to see on this. No one listens to me. Hot tub time machine two. Hot tub time machine two features autonomous cars that have been given the same rights as people. Through a treaty with the government, the autonomous cars can request to kill you if you're rude to them. So yes, robots need rights. And as Dan was saying, you talked a little bit. We were talking about Philip K. Dick and he said once, I wonder if the scanner sees me lightly or darkly. So it matters a lot now how you look to the AI. If you're saying please and thank you every time you talk to Siri, all these kind of things. Eat your Brussels sprouts. Oh, I was just going to go to Theo. And he totally blipped off. OK, so Theo's going to come back. He must have insulted the AI. But yeah, I thought this was a great question. This is a great sci-fi question to talk about. Because yeah, you could only really trust the computers. Once you've removed all the humans, there's no one to leak the password when they call up and give you a phone call and social engineer you. Theo, good man, are you back with us? I am back. Trust in your question. Can we trust the machines and the AI? Can we trust the humans? We can trust the machines and the AI about as much as you can trust a human. Yeah. It's not real. Then again, maybe, maybe. The only way I disagree is because if you have a consensus of humans who have reviewed the code, then it's likely that two heads are better than one. Obviously, there's more quality gates. And now we have the AI's less clearly. The AI's are writing their own code. Those two Google AI's created their own language to talk to each other. And then the humans are like, what are you doing? They're like, this is a better way to talk. And we're like, uh-oh. Don't. Yeah, they sound down. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know if they would, I, I'm not sure that they would come up with cool things like art or, you know, like cursing each other and things like that if they started talking to each other. Unless that's part of the code. Yeah. Have you seen these self-generated, the AI generated faces though? They're incredible. They're like, they do it around every now and then. So they just, they feed in all these faces, whatever, normal pictures and all this information. And it literally generates pictures of people. And they're just, they're mind-bogglingly incredible. And do you think when they can imagine when they get to the stage where they can live render that quality and, you know, pretty much upload you into a perfect, you know, almost to the pixel, to the plank length detail. That's going to be fun. And, uh, I'll ask the computers can recreate your picture. But they'll never recreate. They'll never recreate fine art like the jerky boys. God. Yeah. All right. I think we're out of time for this issue. So we're moving on to predictions or a story of the week. Dan Eave, this has been an audio-only episode. Theos dropped up and down 20 times. You guys had to talk on your phone. We'll stop it. Nothing to bring you this episode. So give us a thumbs up and a share. Dan, what's your prediction or story of the week? Go ahead. OK, prediction. So I'm going to say what everyone wants to hear and what I want to hear because I need to pay my mortgage again soon. And that is the Bitcoin is going to go up next week, by next week. And, uh, and I think there's going to be a mini alt season as well. I think the sidewaysness of Bitcoin has kind of let that, well, I mean, obviously, they already has been a bit of one. But I think this is going to continue for a bit longer. And we may even dump down on it further. But who knows? I'm just making this stuff up. Don't believe me. I have no idea. Literally no idea. I'm making it up. I might as well. Everyone knows the price of Bitcoin always rises when mad bitcoins is traveling. I am going to be traveling tomorrow. That's why we're here on Thursday causing all these technical problems for you to completely threw off the entire universe there. I didn't want to give a shout out to the mad tour. I was going to put this awesome graphic on screen. I've got the guy with the beaver hat. And he's got mad bitcoins goggles. And it says, mad UK coinfest, castles and couches. And there's even a QR code you guys could donate. I'll try to put this out on Twitter and stuff too. If you want to donate, we've got a tally coin. We've raised $149 towards our goal of $1,000 to help defray the cost of travel so I can go to Europe and bring back a bunch of interviews. I'm going to go to coinfest, UK, in Malta. Then or in a jester. Then we're going to go to Malta. So we're going to do interviews back to back to back for four days straight. We're going to put them all on the camera. We're going to edit them. We're going to talk to Adam back, hopefully. And we're going to Malta. So thanks for bringing the donations in. It does cost money to travel. We not made out of money. You didn't sell the top, all those kind of things. We're going to do more in the off-chain interviews. At the conference, you can check it out on the World Crypto Network YouTube. Right now, we've got ugly old goat interviewed pool side with yacht chain. We've got Max Kaiser on the proof of work show. Very cool. And we've got Max Hillabrand with an introduction to Lightning Multi-Signature and Ben from Wales with another tutorial on creating Bitcoin access points. And I also hope to be in a couple of live tutorials with Ben when I visit him in Wales. It's going to be very cool. So starting the travels tomorrow, follow Mad Bitt coins on Twitter. If you want more updates, I was just going to give it to Theo. So he could do his end of show thing. And he's detached again. So we're going to stall and wait for Theo to come back. But yes, I'm going to be leaving soon to the UK. So if you're in the UK, we try to have hangouts. We announced one on the Mad Bitt coins Twitter, usually just a day or two before the hangouts are really chill. You could just come join us in a bar. We'll get dinner, go to restaurants, and like that. Theo, are you back with us for a prediction or a story? I am. Of course. Of course. And this time, it's a double whammy. It's a story of the week and a prediction grouped together in one. Because the story of the week is Article 13, the European directive that we've already talked about today. By far, that's the story of the week. And the prediction is that things related to Article 13 and people's dissatisfaction with it are going to help fuel the next bull run. This was actually a really bullish that it got passed for crypto. Because I think this is going to open a lot of people's eyes when they try to even talk about some of the ways to enforce this kind of stuff. It's going to open a lot of people's eyes to waste to get around it. They're going to get turned on to Bitcoin, all kinds of other things. I think that's a real good. It's going to be one of those entry level drugs. It's a good prediction. It's causing more decentralization, more interest in these issues. The more they tighten their grip, the more star systems will slip through their fingers. It's just too bad. We have to go through the grip tightening first. But thanks again, everybody, for joining us, giving us a thumbs up, Joe. Sorry, this was our audio only version, but this is what the podcasts are like. So check out the World Crypto Network audio podcasts. You can listen into the background. You can make the speed go faster. So I talk faster. We've got it all on the World Crypto Network.com. So stay tuned, Madbite Coins Twitter, on tour tomorrow. This is it. So I'm going to go pack. And that's about it. Until next time. Bye, bye. Bye, bye. Bye. They're nice. Yeah.