The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Andy Hoffman from Crypto Gold Central. Yes, I am a Bitcoin maximalist. Gabriel D. Vine from Future Rant. I prefer not having labels. Hello, Bitcoin. Hello, posterity. J.W. Weatherman from mathbot.com. I disagree with that definition of Bitcoin maximalism. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one, price manipulation. The US Department of Justice has opened a criminal probe into price manipulation in the Bitcoin market, specifically focused on spoofing, the practice of flooding the market with fake orders to trick people into buying or selling, and wash trading, when a trader creates a fake impression of market demand by trading with themselves. These tactics are, of course, reminiscent of the alleged bot trading on the Mt. Gox exchange that was rumored to have caused the original $1200 spike. The price of Bitcoin declined more than 3% following the announcement and has fallen below $7,500. Andy Hoffman, although in the short term, it's clear that this regulatory interest is dragging down the price. In the long run, is it good for Bitcoin to be more regulated? Would it be a better market for consumers without spoofing and wash trading? Well, of course, my background is in market manipulation. That's how I became well-known in the alternative media over a 16-year period, particularly following the gold markets, but not just gold. I follow stock and the bond and the currency and commodity markets. Everything is pretty much rigged. It's been that way for a very long time. A lot of it is overt. What do you think QE is? What do you think the President's work group on capital markets, the Exchange Stabilization Fund, all these things. Let's start with the premise that everything is rigged by someone somewhere. When it comes to the DOJ coming in, it's kind of laughable. They're not going to do anything. These kind of things have happened in state precious metals. They never do anything. It's funny that they bring it up. It's almost like, well, that's what caused the Mt. Gox to go up. No, no. The manipulation, if anything, is causes it to go down. It's funny that they talk about spoofing like it's alleged. Anyone, just look at Bitcoin wisdom. Go to BitStamp or BitFinex. Just watch it all day long. I would bet that 99% of the orders that are there are fake. Spoofing is all that goes on. There's almost nothing real. It's all day long every day. I'm not sure what they think is so unique about what's going on now. By the way, are they saying that it's causing the price to go up or down? Are they talking about futures markets? They're talking about exchanges like GDACs and Crack in which are US exchanges. I have no idea. When they say stuff like, it's causing the price to go down. I don't think it's causing the price to go down. If there is manipulation and they are going to theoretically stop it, this is bad thing. The price is dealing with all kinds of things right now, as I was saying the other day. At this point, it's just so overwhelming all the factors that I just give up trying on a daily basis. I'm not worried about this at all. Of course, it's manipulated like everything else and it sucks, but I don't think the DOJ being a part of it really has anything to do with anything. It doesn't bother me at all. Just like to remind everyone to give us a thumbs up and a share so that more people will find the show. Gabriel, D.Van. Yeah, I really like what Andy had to say there. I think that's probably true. It's very difficult to say what would happen if people did certain things more or less. It's conjecture to an extent. This is a really deep issue because we have the overarching issue of government power, government regulation. Many traders might say that having made spoofing and what was the other thing called? Washtrading. Yeah, of course, washtrading where you buy. That's on exchanges that don't have a fee per trade. Then people do a lot of washrooms because it's free and there's no cost to it and you can try to manipulate the market that way. That was only made illegal according to this article eight years ago. In my opinion, a lot of these financial court and court regulations are really just way to shut money into consulting firms and basically the same people that are the regulators that write the policies. Then if the revolving door, they go and get their gigs at these fintech sort of what do they call it? Compliance, quite accurately. Compliance, firm. This is all a huge fraudulent scam that governments around the world run and the great thing is that we now have the vision to move forward and create decentralized exchanges where such shenanigans can't be done. There won't be an office to walk into, to force people to hire a cadre of lawyers and additional developers and whatever, all the different people that this is the drag on one of the many drags in the world economy. That's the overarching issue here where they're basically just trying to look for things to do and they're trying to do what their mandate is but it's just totally ridiculous and completely out of control that financial regulators have this much power. It's totally retarded. It's the same thing with banking, same thing with Andy pointed out all the markets and there's so much endemic fraud. They're not actually going to find the Bernie made-offs before they happen because these people are too well connected. This is basically just more government overreach but it's got an end to it and I think that the wash trading and or any other market manipulation quote-unquote will be easier and easier to do until the markets adjust to the fact that there's whales and there's small people and small people have less power to set price in a market than whales. Whales have the ability to sell and buy and one thing I just want to point out before I finish. For a long time I've said this and very few people kind of realize it. I'm sure you guys all do but all you have to do to depress any assets currency, excuse me, any assets value is to spend a bunch of money. Now of course if you control the money supply, in other words if you control the currency supply like the federal reserve does and like our government is in cooots with these people they can create, they can just throw cash around, digital cash, untrackable, untraceable, physical cash, send it out to a rock and duffel bags, whatever. It's totally uncontrolled. They can make as much as they want so in the case of traditional markets you have both sides of the equation are completely fraudulent. The price of the paper commodity that can be, you know, the supply can be manipulated at will by creating fake toe, essentially tokens. This is what people own instead of actual stock or portions of ownership in something. It wasn't until Bitcoin that we had a digital asset that is genuinely scarce. And so with Bitcoin half of the market, and this is, we're talking about the fiat to Bitcoin markets. Half of the market is completely fraudulent, the fiat side and the Bitcoin side is way less only temporarily because of some sort of exchange fraud. But as soon as you start withdrawing, it's over like with stocks. So anybody can just create a bunch of fiat at a thin air and depress the price of Bitcoin or increase it to their will. So there's, we're still in a situation where the fiat price of Bitcoin is extremely, is it a manipulate to within reason. I mean, you're going to be enriching traders, whether you're buying it or selling it with your money made out of thin air. If you're getting a bunch of quote unquote loans from banks, central banks, funds, whatever, hedge funds, you know, a lot of that money is quote unquote, funny money. It's just dollars that they made. It's debt that was created out of thin air. So you know, that's market manipulation. If the CFTC was really doing this job, it would actually track down those dark pools of fiat that get created that are far more consequential for asset prices around the world. Well, just to add here, there are position limits for shorting. So it's in the comics, scold market, paper market. Yeah, you can print as much money as you want because there's literally no regulation the size of the markets are enormous and the governments are part of the operation. Even Bitcoin, like the futures market is tiny and the liquidity on the exchanges is small. So it's not like you can just say, well, I'm going to print like $50 million and push the price down. It's just they're not liquid enough and there are position limits. I mean, you can't just make it short blindly Bitcoin. So it's not, I mean, if you want to manipulate it up, if you can call it manipulation, you can certainly do that by printing money. But on the way down, there's only so much you can do. It's not an unlimited amount of shorting you can do. Right. Yeah, I totally agree. And that's what I meant by there's certain limits, especially for shorting. But you can do lots of really sharp moves, flash crashes, temporary things very easily because still half the equation is 100% fraudulent. That gives you certain amount of power. Yeah. It's also worth noting on a larger scale and perhaps a longer timeline if they keep printing fiat and there keeps being 21 million bitcoins and they keep printing fiat, they're going to get less Bitcoin with every print of fiat that they make. It could be a real problem for them in the long run. Also on the fee list trading can be a real problem. That's how they found the mount gocks spots. They were trading without fees and people thought it was a little odd. JW weatherman, your thoughts on this topic. Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything that was said. I think the real issue, the root cause here is that there's a lot of dumb money and the dumb money actually exists because of government regulation. Because people couldn't go invest in the gas station down the street, get burned, get some experience, or even have the option to just invest in things they know. If you're an auto mechanic, you don't have the option to invest in an auto mechanic business unless it happens to be something that's been blessed and is on a wall street so that you're stuffed into all of that market manipulation. So the problem was created by government and it's not going to be fixed by government. As one quick anecdote, when Sarbanes oxley passed, it was supposed to be this huge solution to a bunch of corruption and CEOs could go to jail, CSOs could get in trouble if they had data breaches. The only thing that that resulted in was that security consulting companies and guys like me made a ton of money because the chief security officers knew that in order to be compliant with the law and to stay out of trouble, they didn't have to make anything secure. That's not what the system was designed to do. What it was designed to do was funnel money to security consulting companies and guys like Perkins, Kui and all these folks. So they had a certain amount of millions of dollars that they just had to burn through and they didn't care what it resulted in. And a lot of guys like me did a lot of work that went directly into the round file because it just had to hit the right dollar figure. That's how government regulation always works. They do not love you. They are not trying to solve your problems. They are here to get in your wallet. And Bitcoin is great because it can't be regulated. It can't be manipulated in the same way that gold can because there's guys with guns that can control the vaults. But we do need to move to something like BISC, the centralized exchanges for Bitcoin are a huge security issue. So if you've got a bunch of money in Coinbase, you do a lot of trading on Coinbase. I know the volume's not there yet on BISC, but if you want to be trading in a year or two and not be screwed over, now would be a good time to get out there, get some experience and maybe add a little liquidity out there. And a government regulation and centralization certainly of exchanges certainly come together in Andy's favorite topic of the Mt. Gox exchange, where a Japanese regulator is presumably being forced by government regulation to sell off Bitcoin at less and less than evaluation continuously racking and hurting the market. Let's move on to the exit question. Will the investigation be successful? Will they get their man and fix this industry or is getting their man not the point of the investigation? Andy Hoffman. I'm not even sure why they're doing this investigation and it's not one man, it's the entire exchange. The one thing I will say is that unlike, let's say the gold market or the stock of bomb market, I don't believe that this has anything to do with governments. I think it's just being abused by big traders and I don't expect anything to be done about it. I don't expect this to be an issue at all. It's to me, it's a complete non-issue. Gabriel, D. Vine. I think J.W. actually just answered that question. Getting the man is not the point of the investigation, fixing some sort of broken things, that's not what it's about at all. It's just all a big fricking scam. J.W. Weatherman. If there was a chance that they were going to fix the problem, they wouldn't do it. If there's a chance they can make it worse, then we'll probably see some action. It's like the opposite of the Hippocratic oath. Moving on to issue two, weakest link. Bitcoin gold and Dogecoin dark, also known as Verge, were both hit by 51% attacks this week with double spending on the Bitcoin gold attack. Cosine exchange to lose $18 million, while Verge only lost $1.4. $1.4 million, meanwhile, the Black Hat hacker convention has accepted a talk about how to break Iota's hash function. Gabriel, D. Vine, I ask you, is it open season on altcoins or have hackers halted their legendary attacks on Bitcoin only to focus on the weakest link? Well, I think that hackers are always going to be going after low-hanging fruit, and altcoins are smaller than Bitcoin and are therefore easier to attack. It's pretty much as simple as that. It's not like Bitcoin gold has some sort of technical, let's say, technological flaw. There is a technical flaw, but it happens to be a social vector in that the mining power is too small. It's not that if the positions were reversed and Bitcoin gold had the same hash power as Bitcoin, and Bitcoin that is Bitcoin gold, then it would have been Bitcoin getting 51% attacked. That's pretty much one of the big reasons for Bitcoin maximists thinking that there's going to be one winner because smaller networks are more susceptible to this type of thing. Having the verge attack, the dogecoin dark attack, they got DDoS'd. Once again, it's too much centralization in the mining pools. I think some things like that could have happened to Bitcoin when it was that size, but there were, I don't know, were there any big DDoS attacks against Bitcoin mining pools five years ago? Generally, yes. I mean, generally, there's been all kinds of attacks. I don't know if you could just knock a mining pool off, get rid of 30% of the hash rate, take over the network, something like that, which is I assume what you're describing with the dogecoin dark. I don't think that's happened, but yeah, DDoS attacks, all these things, Bitcoin has been battle tested. Yeah. It's the natural fate for every altcoin, in my opinion. I actually, this does bring up something that, what's his name? DeSantis, Andrew DeSantis brought up, which was, he thought there were some vulnerabilities in the Beck 32 address format, which is one of the new address, it's the new address format in Bitcoin. He was pointing out some blocks that he claimed had double spends in them as a result of this corner case that Beck 32 address support has created in the Bitcoin sort of transaction format. So if anybody has more information about that and what that is, I wasn't really able to find anything about this Beck 32 weakness. So definitely let me know about that. It probably has to ask DeSantis himself, let's go to JW Weatherman. Yeah. So I love that this is happening because guys like me, the good guys stand around and we say stuff like, hey, there's a major security flaw here. You guys should take note. If you invest, you're going to get burned. This really doesn't make sense. Don't drive over the bridge. And people, some listen and some don't. And you kind of build up a certain level of frustration to the point where when they finally get on the bridge, you enjoy watching it crumble and then crash into the ocean below and that's exactly how I feel about all this stuff. I've been doing my best to tell people, look at Bitcoin threats dot our BTC threats dot com. I'm not going to do a threat model for every crap coin that comes up, but just look at the table of contents and ask yourself how it's going to stand up. And the answers are pretty obvious. But people are stubborn and either they're not, they're not getting the message or they're just looking for sick gains or whatever. And there's a certain satisfaction in seeing these things come off the rails. And a lack of hash power is a major security flaw. It's a critical security flaw because if you don't have enough hash power, when hash power is what prevents people from rewriting transaction and overwriting your chain, then this is kind of pretty fundamental to the way these things are designed. To see, you know, Monero and Bitcoin private and all these crap coins still using the same tired old story that that that Litecoin used when it came out of, hey, we're going to be asick resistant. I've debated Cobra, I've debated Luke Dash Jr. Like I've made it really clear. I have a very detailed document that you can find on my GitHub. There is no way to avoid specialty hardware. And the only hope that a coin has for decent security is to run to specialty hardware commoditization as fast as possible. And it really does look like Bitcoin is the only thing that's going to get there. And anybody that, you know, like I talked to Bitcoin private guy, one of the developers today on Adam Meister's show. And you know, it's pretty clear to me that those guys, they get it. They understand, but they also want to take advantage of the fact that people are stupid and if they can mine their own coins, it's just an incredible marketing opportunity. And they don't want to give up that marketing opportunity to be a secure coin. So we really, this is where we need the black hats to come in and just slap the hell out of them so that not too many people end up getting suckered. I'm surprised that Bitcoin Gold didn't get all the hash power of Bitcoin when they stole the name. That just doesn't seem fair. I just wanted to say that I never understood this idea of asick resistance either. It makes zero sense. It's like a magic idea that suddenly, you know, touring's general computing device that, you know, the universal, you know, machine that he created in, you know, what do you call it? Theoretically was actually designed by Neumann and several other people and a lot of different designs in the integrated circuit. And then we, and now we have these microprocessors as they call them in sovereign individual. Now we just call them processors. They're so ubiquitous and they can do it all. And, you know, you know, we even have memristers and things to speed up various stuff. And then quantum computing. So it's just totally retarded. It's, it's a really basic like any, you know, freshman, you know, hardware engineering student is going to know that is impossible to do such thing as asick resistance. And even less than that, right? Like you don't even have to say asick resistance. You can just say specialty hardware. I choose that intentionally because if I tell you that you're going to go roof a house, you're going to grab a roofing hammer. You're not going to grab a framing hammer because it's specifically designed for that task. And anybody that can't understand that a tool specifically designed for one task is probably going to be better at that task than a tool designed for 50 tasks is basically hopeless, I think. Yeah. And then the other point that I forgot to mention and then I'll turn it over to Andy, of course, is that, you know, this could very well be an attack by Bitcoin miners or Bitcoin whales. I mean, they've got the cash throw throw around at an inexpensive attack like this. I mean, you know, 1.4 million was stolen. How much do you think that that cost to put together and throw together a few black hats, you know, 10 grand, 5 grand, 20 grand, 3 grand? I mean, not that much, you know, talking about not 100 grand to pull off this. You can probably bet that if they're heavily invested in Bitcoin, they can get more efficient and they can just start crushing these things, you know, in a factory. Right. And that's the black side of network effect, right? The network effect not only is it, you know, just generally more useful with more people use it because it's a money good. You also have the situation where it's going to not only is it going to be anti-fragile and react to attacks on itself, it's also going to react to weaknesses in others and actively attack them and attempt to use whatever leverage you can over those networks. Excellent point, man. And that's not a reason to be a Bitcoin maximalist. Just because Bitcoin gets to be the biggest, has the most hash power, has the most money, and then can use that for the most attacks. I would ignore that. Don't let that enter into your mind. Andy Hoffman. Okay. Great points all. First I'll say it's funny because when Beat Gold came out, they thought they had cornered the market on names like, oh, we can combine it with gold. But, you know, I, who was the number one gold ball on earth, I think that gold is now completely dead. I think it will trade in its cost of production forever. So to me, Beat Gold is like the worst name, the only worst name I could think of was that seg with 2x, 2.0 because there's no way that anyone's going to want to have anything to do with a clone level on one that is golden. I guess they could put silver in the name that would be worse. Now, here's my view of this as a layman. Obviously, I'm talking to three people with a lot of coding experience. And I know Lingo, obviously, and I know generally what's going on, but I can't ever get as deep as you guys are. But what's obvious to me, when I think of all coins in general, from the financial respect, the first thing that hurts almost all all coins is they don't have use cases. There are a handful that may have use cases over time that investors may find value, but for the most part, and Bitcoin Gold is a perfect example of something that to me is completely useless. I can't see why you'd even want to speculate on it unless it's a rising tide that lifts all boats scenario, which we had a few months back. Now, one of the other things that we're seeing now that no one realized, because again, old coins really, there weren't many old coins a year and a half ago. It was really only when the market really exploded in the fall, where tons and tons of old coins came on and got these huge valuations. But no one really got to see what happens to them in a down market. And what we're seeing right now is that the only thing that people use them for is to speculate. So when the market goes down, the hash power goes down and they become extremely vulnerable. And that's what happened to be gold, because literally no one is using it for anything other than speculation. Now they're not speculating. And I couldn't tell you about Verge or any of these other ones, but I'm guessing no one uses them for anything either. So again, this is going to be a scenario where what these guys are saying is, unless the market takes off again and people start speculating. And so there's a lot of miners that want to mine everything and make it fancable, at least in the near term. You're going to see a lot more of this stuff go on. That's just what a layman sees right here. And it only makes the case stronger for Bitcoin. I remember last year when there was issues with Bitcoin, everyone ran to old coins. Right now, I haven't seen people running from old coins to Bitcoin, but at some point, they're going to do that. I agree. And I think that's the main maximalist thing. People get all upset. You're a Bitcoin maximalist. It's not that I hate the altcoins. It's just at some point, Bitcoin's going to go straight up. And after two or three days of straight up, you're going to sell all your altcoins to get some of that Bitcoin that's going straight up, as well as the fact that technically, having more hash power makes your network stronger. There's a network effect going on here like Facebook, like Twitter, all these other viral things. Go ahead. And I'll add one more thing I saw today that Bitcoin's hash power today with the market at, you know, down 70 percent is higher than it's ever been before. And the other thing I'm thinking of is B cash. Again, you're not really hearing much from those guys because it's becoming exhausted. The whole propaganda, big blocks and people using it. I would guess that people are using B cash for things other than speculation as much as they're using B-cold as in nothing. And if it weren't for BitMain holding all of that B-gold that they're scared, B-cash that they're scared is going to crash. So they keep minding it. It would have the same issue. So at some point, either they're going to say, I mean, why are we still doing this? Let's just sell all our B-cash and get out of it and move on to something profitable. Or they're going to start losing money because the B-cash is, to me, the biggest scam in the history of crypto. And there's no way that it could end well. It's also sad to see them repeat the same steps that Bitcoin did where they're trying to go to the merchants and get the merchants to accept B-cash, which is great. But let me tell you from experience, no one shops there afterwards. You have to do both sides of this. You can't just go around, get all the merchants, then have no one to shop there. And obviously no one's holding B-cash. No one's using B-cash. There are no B-cash wallets. I don't think that you're going to get the kind of real-world customers that you need to support a shop having an extra tablet or even taking 10 minutes to trade an employee. It's just merchant adoption is not the way forward. I think that store-of-value investment, as much as you might not like it, fear of missing out. Those are the selling points for Bitcoin right now. It's new technology. You don't want to miss out. Gabe? I'd like to ask a pre-exit question to the panel. And I'll answer it first. Myself, the question is, what is your coding experience? Because Andy seems to be assuming, I don't think Thomas is exactly a C-plus-plus genius or anything. And myself. I've been thrown out of assembly class. Really? Yes. So you have, what do you have? Well, let me answer it first. I have experience on the front end with JavaScript, but anything, but like a very versed developer. I'm not a software developer. You know, I have good understanding of like the basics, but I'm anything but an expert. All right. So you're looking at me. So they taught me logo and basic in the 80s and 90s. Then they taught me C-plus-plus. And I never found a use for it. I couldn't apply it to anything. So I didn't get interest in it. Then I found PHP and MySQL. Friend of mine showed me how to put data in and out of a database. So then I wrote a blog and had a mailing list. And then I wrote an RSS feed reader. And I imported my Netflix movies in. So I know a little bit of basic code. They tell me it's more procedural. I'm into functions. I'm not that into what's the object oriented. Yeah, object oriented. They always get mad at me because I'm not object oriented. And I'm not overloading my operators or something. Let's go to Andy and then we'll go to JW to... Yeah, that's all I think. Actually, I was just thinking about it. I did take MSI 101 in 1989. And I think they taught us basic. Basic was good. You had to put the line numbers on there. 10, 20, 30. In case you screwed up and had to add some more lines later. They also had me teach computers. But that's mainly applications. JW, computer background. Yeah, I mean, I've been doing this sort of stuff for about 20 years. And for various chunks of my career, I've written code full time for software companies. But I am not a good developer. So I always get sucked over to the security side. And there's always better guys than me to actually build the stuff. So that's pretty much my pattern. I'll get a good 6, 9, 1 stretch of coding all day long. And that's about it. There's definitely a lot of a done in Kruger in this. You really do meet people better than you when you get into software. You think you're a hot shit. You meet people better than you. I'm really impressed, Thomas. I didn't know that you had that much skill. That's awesome, man. I can, I mean, when I had the desire when I wanted a movie database or I wanted a blog, I wrote a movie database or a blog. And I don't know how complicated there. And I did some stuff with the lawyers bringing in lots about a data and dealing with hundreds of thousands of pages of pvfs and writing file maker databases. But they're much, much less technical than things other people might do. But let's move on to the exit question. We were talking about the altcoin attacks on Bitcoin gold and does coin dark. Will attacks like this help people understand the difference between Bitcoin and altcoins, Gabriel, Devon? Yes. JW. Good answer. Absolutely. When you see a few bridges fall over, you start deciding that you're going to hire good engineers. Andy Hoffman. Yes. I wrote an article about where will Bitcoin dominance go this time around? Which of course is a guess. To answer your question, which is part of this article. An absolute yes. All right, moving on. Did you know the World Crypto Network has a podcast? And you can subscribe on iTunes. Get the Adam Meister Show, Tone Vaze, Jimmy Song, and much, much more on the World Crypto Network podcast. Also, it didn't change things. That's the new function. Also, if you're in the Las Vegas area, please join the Bitcoin Las Vegas Meetup on Meetup.com or at Bitcoin Las Vegas.org. More on that later. Moving on to issue three, clean up this town. The world of cryptocurrency has long been accepted as the Wild West or the Frontier. At first, far sparsely populated by technologists and libertarians, the early Bitcoiners accepted their losses and learned to trust no one. But with the advent of ERC-20 tokens and ICO madness of which the status group claims that more than 81% of them are in fact scams. They are starting to be more victims and thus more crimes. Will the SEC's interest in Bitcoin lead to a cleanup of the entire industry? Are the easy days of altcoins and ICOs over? Or will they just go international? J.W. Weatherman. Yeah, I think they already are international and I think that it would be a challenge to fix this problem if the government wanted to. But they don't because when these scams happen, they wait for them to peak and then when they're going down on the downhill of the Ponzi scheme. That's when they come in and they get their taste because that's when the complaints come in and they don't have to go out and investigate. They just wait for the complaints to come in and then they go out and they go after these guys and they grab a big chunk of whatever is left. Do they give it back to the victims? Of course not. The legal system is not set up for restitution. It's set up for fines and penalties. So this is working. All of it should be working. I'm sure some people are going to go to jail. I would be very concerned if you're in a position where you've helped pump an ICO or soon enough. I think they'll be going after the altcoins too. But we don't need the SEC. Libertarians, they don't look at this and go, we need the SEC to keep people from learning how to invest and experiencing doing research and making mistakes. We just need a functional justice system that enforces basic things like theft and fraud. And we don't have that. I can lie to you and I can trick you into buying something that is sort of like Bitcoin, but uses a different name for the unit of account. And there's no consequences for me at all. I can pump the heck out of that. So that's the fundamental problem. The solution is not going to be that the government is going to come in and rescue us. The solution is going to be that people are going to get burned. They're going to learn the hard way. We're going to churn through the decades of dumb money that's been piled up. And it's going to get reallocated through scammers to people that are less stupid. And that will be all right. And we'll keep moving forward. Excellent points. Andy Hoffman, are you shocked to find that there's gambling going on in this establishment? Well, it's funny. I mean, everyone spent so much time worrying about the U.S. government. Again, 4% of the people in the world live in America. And cryptocurrency is a global issue. And it's an amorphous one. So to say we're going to go after anything. How do you go after things which are in many cases anonymous and many cases are foreign? There's no regulations or rules. So, and like J. W says, I mean, how do you do things proactively? You don't even personally don't even know what to go after. They're not even different than heard of any of these things until after the fact. So, I think it's more a case of it's like the dot com. It does it to itself. The scams, look, if you want to invest in unbelievably risky things that are run by people you don't even know online, it's no different than gambling. And you deserve it. I mean, it's unbelievable that people have been doing this for so long. Because I mean, I've never seen anything as risky as the kind of investments people have been making. And I think it would be like dot com's, 95% of them just go away. Some just become worth almost nothing. And some just spectacularly fail, like Bitconnect and actually go to zero. And again, the SEC is just one of many regulatory agencies out there. A lot of countries don't care. Some countries like crypto's and people, you know, there'll be an arbitrage. People just migrate to where people don't care the least. So I don't really think there's way too much. Yes, there could be like if crypto became a threat to the government, you could have like a China event where SEC bands, or US government bands, but I don't think we'd ever get to that. I think it's just going to be a passing fancy. And you know, everyone worry about the SEC and the CFTC. I'm not, I don't think it matters at all. I think people lose money because they do dumb things. And eventually the few things that are worth money, you know, like Bitcoin, the smart people will eventually find. I think this ties well into the last topic as well. You can put Bitcoin and Ethereum and Dogecoin dark and whatever you got. You can put them on a list, one, two, three, four. And they seem like they're really close together. That one's only number three. That one's only number two. But in reality, there's a huge difference between these currencies. And it's not just the code. It's also things you don't know about like the hash rate. You really do have to spend some time learning about these currencies. And maybe just maybe listening to the people that came before you. There might not be as much upside in Bitcoin, but there might not be as much risk. And if you're not looking at the upside and the risk and you're not properly judging these things, you're just saying, well, the number five altcoins just as good as the number one altcoin, you might find yourself in trouble. Gabriel, D.Van. So what exactly is the question here? The easy days of all, okay. So here it goes in waves. And I do agree with JW that there will be a final crest where there will be a final sort of inflationary explosion, kind of like what the Fiat is doing now. And it'll happen in ICOs. Now remember for our listeners, maybe who aren't, maybe you're just having a little bit of trouble keeping up with some of the technical details and stuff. ICOs, since we're initial coin offering, and what it is is a junk bond. It's a digital junk bond that is trackable through a shared database. And just like junk bonds on the traditional markets, they're very volatile, they're small markets, they're extremely speculative. That's why they call them junk. And occasionally a junk bond, the company does really well and succeeds. But almost all the time, they completely fail and junk bond value goes to zero. So that's kind of what we have with ICOs. It's conceivable that a handful of ICO projects could one day succeed. And unlike some Bitcoin maximalists, I do think that there may be some interesting uses for tokens, but not as money. Maybe they might be relatively liquid, but they won't really, they don't think they'll be a store of value like Bitcoin will be. But I do think that it's conceivable you could make systems. And JW and I, he's finally, or not finally, but he's gotten hip to bass, which I've been following for a good year or longer. It was painful. It was a painful revelation, man. So yeah, I'm there now. Oh, right on. Interesting. Oh, we'll have to hear about that another time. But so, you know, they're using, you know, colored Bitcoin, but even even a separate database, the problem with using a separate blockchain, though, is that it can be hacked like we talked about with, you know, low hash rates. So I really think probably, you know, colored Bitcoin would be a better solution in general. But you never know. And I think there are more like commodities, where if you have a DAO, a decentralized system, where people essentially have a network company, and that's what a lot of these projects are trying to do, a decentralized platform is generally like a network company. So instead of a pyramid, where you have a CEO or a board of directors making decisions, and people delegate the decision-making power downward in a pyramid, traditional, you know, hierarchy, you create a network of peers. And, you know, Bitcoin itself is that type of network. So you can build these cryptographically secured networks, possibly in order to track digital commodities. I think Made Safe is a very interesting project for that reason too. But none of them are will be money. They might be somewhat fungible and tradable and usable to possibly, you know, trade for money to buy things quickly and things like that, but they won't have the stability of a money. And some of the other features like store value over time, possibly. So, yeah, that's what's going on with this. I don't think we are at the end of the phase. Like last year was just one of the middle gasps up. And I think that we're going to see quite a similar thing again soon. I think this year again, and then again in another three or something. So that's my prediction. That's kind of what you're going for. I think it must be really hard for people who are getting into Bitcoin today. You don't know what to do. You've heard these stories about people getting rich without working. And that's the first thing. It does take some kind of work. If you see your Bitcoin go to 200, you see it go to $10, you see it go to $1300, you see it go to $300. Holding on through all of that, that is work. That's something you need to practice for. And while it may seem like all these altcoins are the way to get richer, it might not be that way. What I try to tell everyone now is to do percentages. Maybe 70, 30, maybe 90, 10, to put a little bit into something, to put a little bit into something else, and to just have it all spaced out. And then not to try to sell all. When you sell something, try to hold on 10%. Maybe it goes back up. But I can imagine it's very tough. A lot of FOMO, you want to get rich quick. Everyone else, you heard they all got rich quick. Maybe it was an altcoin, maybe it was a token, maybe it was just holding Bitcoin. But I think if you focus on getting rich slowly, investing on a schedule, not more than you can lose, maybe 90% Bitcoin, 10% altcoins, or 80, 20, whatever makes you comfortable, gauge your risk. Also look at your time. How much time do you have to investment? When do you need this money back? Don't invest more than you can lose. But let's get back to the topic and the exit question. The rate at which mainstream companies are adapting ICOs will slow because of these investigations. True or false? JW weatherman. Oh man, I don't know. It's rare that I get totally stumped and I gotta say I don't know. I have no idea what the effect is going to be. I think it's very possible that the government will do such a poor job that it'll actually encourage more ICOs. Because this fire is going to burn until the underbrush is burned out. On the other hand, maybe it'll scare some people and they'll move back a little bit. I've seen Coinbase make some statements lately that maybe make it seem like they're a little bit more conservative with this stuff. They're not going to be as bullish about all the scams that they've been listing lately on the altcoin side even. Tough to say. I'd have to say I'm not exactly sure, but I do know in the long run, and this is kind of the same thing I say about price to be a little foreshadowing there. In the long run, I know where it's going. I know the dumb money is getting reallocated and these things will stop. I just don't know how long it's going to take and whether this short-term stuff is going to speed it up or slow it down. Coinbase is an interesting position because they want banking licenses. If you look at everyone who doesn't want banking licenses, they could go international and they could blow this thing up. They need a country like Sweden to agree with them or Switzerland, something like that. Andy Hoffman. Right. If you are headquartered now in a major Western nation, which is where the vast majority of business takes place, there's no way you're going to touch an ICO. In fact, I had a client who worked for a mainstream company who wanted to do one. He wanted me to help him. As soon as he saw the SEC start talking about ICO, he said not a chance. He said my board of directors would laugh me out of the room. I don't think you're going to see any companies in America and Europe, Australia, Japan, even touching these things as long as governments are focusing on them. Mainstream companies. Of course, they can't just go overseas. You can't be like Walmart and be like, well, we'll just go to Sweden. They're going to have to wait until the tide changes and crypto becomes more dominant because I think in the future that ICOs are the future, not the current type of ICOs, but in much better type because it's generally speaking, you're talking about decentralized financing that gets rid of all the Wall Street and regulations, but that's going to take some time. So right now, I think the ICO market for mainstream companies completely dead unless you're in some third world country where the government doesn't even know how to regulate. So you're saying all of my Kodak coin are going to be worthless? There's no Kodak coin, ICO coming for me, Andy. I don't even know. I thought Kodak went bankrupt a long time ago. It's just a brand. It's like Polaroid. It's a brand that's been sold and the people that own the brand we're going to do an ICO for sharing digital photos and you need a token for that. So it's like Flickr, but with a token, that's going to work. Gabriel Devon. Nice. You know, I think that this is just a classic case of jurisdictional arbitrage. Anybody wanting to start one of these junk bonds, digital junk bond scams can just go to Rwanda or Mozambique or I don't mean to pick on Africa here. Lesoto. That's also in Africa. Cambodia or Kamchatka. I just do their stuff there or just do it on the dark web. From their mom's basement in Alberta. You know, it's very, very easy. These things are decentralized. It's very easy to evade these authorities. This is cyber. We're already in crypto-anarchy in a lot of ways with anything like this. So I think that that type of jurisdictional arbitrage is going to be the name of the game for anybody public. And the rest of everybody else is going to be depending on decentralized systems in order to handle fraud and reputation. I think there's going to be a totally different relationship to data in the coming years. That's going to shift and turn completely on its head over the next 10 years. I loved all of Gabe's geographic examples. They're all out of the board game risk. Kamchatka and Siam and Ceylon. It's called Ceylonka now. Come on. Moving on to issue four. He's a bull and he's bullish. You might call him crazy, but funds strat analysts Tom Lee is sticking to his guns. Even as the price of Bitcoin falls below $8,000, he continues to hold his price target of $25,000 of coin, citing three key factors. Number one, Bitcoin production and replication costs. Number two, institutional investors. And number three, the historical trend, which he says shows that as miserable as it feels holding Bitcoin at $8,000, the move from $8,000 to $25,000 will happen in a handful of days. And that one risks missing those days if not invested in the Bitcoin market. Andy Hoffman, what do you think? Is Lee correct? Will the Bitcoin market recover and even reach new heights? Well, I'll say I absolutely love that this is the former JP Morgan strategist who's become the de facto. I guess at one point I was the Wall Street guy who came over, but now he's the Wall Street guy and he's got his big company. And he gets, he's the CNBC guy who's all over the place. So good for him. He's trying to use Wall Street metrics on Bitcoin. He's, he keeps, I've seen the kind of things he says. He talks about it like it's a stock market. And so he's trying to relate to those very institutions that he used to talk to. And it really doesn't work in Bitcoin to do that. But what I do agree with is that institutions are coming in. And they started coming in the $100 billion market cap, which is $6,000 Bitcoin. And since that time, a lot more institutions have done their homework as we've been over $100 billion for a long time now. And I think that it's given all that's going on in the fiat world. This is a hedge, especially now that all these custodial accounts or custodial services are going to start to be offered. I think it's quite obvious that everyone's going to have to have a little bit just to get some skin of the game as a hedge or as a speculation. As for mining, I'm not even sure. I'm trying to get Frances Pouliotte on my show. It's, I don't quite understand the cost of Bitcoin production thing. It's not as simple as as gold or commodities because it's constantly changing with difficulty and hatred. Things that are way beyond my scope. So I don't even know where to call the bottom, where the floor is in terms of that. But certainly, if you were going to say that the cost of production was $6,000 and that it was steady at $6,000, I'd say, well, that's probably a good floor price. But I'm not sure about that. And then the trend, that's just marketing stuff. You don't want to be in it because you'll miss the good days. Well, you could say, you don't want to be in it because you'll miss the bad days. Because it falls, I mean, we went from 12,000 to 6,000 or whatever it was, 17,000 to 6,000 in five weeks. And then we went from 5,000 to 20,000 in five weeks also. So look, I love that we have this guy on board to communicate with the other side. And I believe that Bitcoin should get there and then some. But I mean, he doesn't know any more than anyone else does. Gabriel, divine. I think Lee is a very, very bearish, in my opinion. This is not a big call. He's being conservative on purpose, probably. He probably thinks it's going to go a lot higher. He just doesn't want to sound totally outlandish. Personally, I think we're on a similar trajectory that we were in 2013, where there was two bubbles in a row. And I think this is the quiet period between two bubbles. That lines up also with the halving. The halving was in late 2012. It was in mid 2016, so as far as the months are concerned, we're off. But lining up the April 2013 peak with the December peak that we had last year, that means that sometime this year, we're going to shoot up. And I think it'll be a similar proportion. So a 12x move off the bottom, which was around six, puts us around 75 grand as a top this year, maybe even higher, in my opinion. And then I think we're going to have a relatively quiet 2019, perhaps. If things follow on the same as they did with the last halving, I think they might. It'll be quiet because people will be speechless if it's $75,000. And many people have called him outlandish, but mad bitcoins on Twitter has predicted a top Bitcoin price of infinity. That's right, infinity. It can't be topped all of the world's wealth, highest prediction possible, JW Weatherman. Yeah, I think there's basically two types of investors. There's guys that decide what something is worth based on how useful it is and how many people are going to want it and how scarce it is. And then there's people that look at the recent price history or maybe the long term price history and do technical analysis and decide that it's what it's worth based on that and then make buying decisions. And I think it's pretty obvious that the latter guys are just idiots, right? That doesn't make sense at all. So that's the dumb money that we, that's that's part of that dumb money that's going into ICOs. It's all over Wall Street. It's all over Main Street. We have to see all of that stuff get burned out and reallocated to people that aren't as dumb or see those people get educated. That would be great too. Like, you don't have to stay dumb forever. Right. But look, Bitcoin's trying to become global money. There's about a hundred trillion dollars of global money in play right now. And this is a low estimate, in my opinion, because people run from money like crazy because it's all being printed. So I think that's going to be on the low side. That's about a five million dollar Bitcoin price if we're trying to measure it in today's value. So if you think that Bitcoin's going to get adopted, if you think it's going to accomplish its mission, I think how many of you have made this argument. If it's got a 1% chance of accomplishing its mission, it is an incredible investment opportunity. But, you know, at the same time, I think it could take 20 years to get there, right? And I have no idea how much dumb money is out there, how quick people are going to learn, how, you know, how long it's going to take for conversations like the one we're having right now to get to, you know, Southeast Asian for the, you know, the bolts to click in their brain and realize that Bitcoin is special and all this other stuff is garbage. So I wouldn't want to make any predictions between now and 20 years from now, but I'm very confident with a 20 year out prediction of five million. The other thing about Bitcoin adoption is I imagine it'll happen like that old story where they asked Rockefeller or someone like that during the Depression, how'd you go broke Mr. Rockefeller? And he said, at first slowly and then all at once. Absolutely, that's that's a viral effect right there. That's it. And we got to keep out because we don't know when it's going to happen for Bitcoin, but we believe it's going to happen just like TCP IP, just like the internet, just like the MP3. The technology's there. Some people see it early. They have that whole book about it crossing the chasm, which group are you in early adopters, late adopter, middle adopter, all those different things, but we're going to find out. And the great thing about it, you can only tell looking backwards. No one can tell looking forward. But let's move on to the exit question. The price of Bitcoin this time next week, higher or lower, Andy Hoffman. Okay, well, last week when it was at 8200, I actually said unchanged, which for me would be the equivalent of extremely bearish. And the reason was because of the uncertainty about the Mt. Dox trustee, which as I will say in my story of the week, I have changed my tune on. So I do believe that the institutions are going to dig in. And so I am now saying higher next week. Gabriel, divine. So you didn't mention whether this is a forced prediction or a voluntary prediction. Can you let me know about that right now? Well, now that I got it right last week. It has to be forced because I'm clearly the greatest predictor of all predictors having predicted that it would go down, but then hedging saying that I always say it will go up. Right. Well, it's like Alice in Wonderland, the Chess IRCAT. Some people like to go this way. Some people go that way. And some people, they go both ways. Oh, hey, Chess, you're swinging. You know, let's see, check your six has another super chat. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. He has a question for Andy. So I'll let Andy handle that. You know, the Bitcoin price goes up and down. And so I do completely agree. My forced prediction is I agree. The price will be higher or lower. Oh, higher or lower. And let's go to JW Weatherman before we ask Andy an uncomfortable question just for fun. So I think my answer is a little different. If you really want to know the answer to this question, I want you to slap yourself as hard as you can and then go by a book called Economics and One Lesson by Henry Hazlet. And don't make any investment decisions. It's not a huge investment. $20 book or something. It's like a four hour read at most. Read that thing. And then, you know, if you still care, do what you want. Excellent. Excellent. And they have a five dollar super chat in the chat. Andy, it appears your service will take a fee to help clients get into any shit coin. And then he calls Andy a name and says Thomas is the best, which must be true. But Andy, just any one to tell the people about your new service or just kind of chill them out a little. I don't know. Sure. I love when people come in and accuse me of things. After all that I've done for the Bitcoin community and it's not even getting right what I'm doing. No, I am not trying to get anyone into any shit coin. I have a extensive background in marketing, a bullion of mining stocks, penny stocks. We're talking about junk bonds before. I did that for many, many years while still, you know, owning gold and just warning people of the risks of them. In fact, I've spent many years warning people of the risks of things. But there are people in the world who want to speculate on old coins. And there are old coins that may be worth at some point speculating on. But not for me personally, I only own Bitcoin. And I recommend only to people to only own Bitcoin and all the private keys themselves. However, if a situation arises where an old coin developer comes to me and says, I have a coin that I could use and help marketing, the equivalent of investor relations in the stock market. And I deem that it's something that is not a complete crap coin because I don't think every single one is going to zero and I would help them out. I mean, it's that simple. But I don't see many opportunities to do that right now. I'm just offering that and see what happens in this kind of market. I doubt much of it's going to come to anything. But down the road, maybe it will be, but that doesn't mean that I'm betraying Bitcoin. I would say, I mean, when you think about my background, I mean, I was on at a bullion deal for a year and a half talking every day about Bitcoin to the point where I got fired for it. And I've said in the time that I started here, I've done 3000 tweets and 1300 articles and 200 podcasts and about why you should own Bitcoin and nothing else. I don't think I need to defend myself. But look, people could take things any way they would like. And it's not unreasonable for someone to have a day job as much as I like making these videos. And everyone likes making these videos. And if you wanted to donate some Bitcoin to the code on your screen right now, you could. But these are not the most lucrative videos in the world to make. This is not an ICO or a factory of money. People are all shocked. You've been in Bitcoin five years. Why aren't you a millionaire on some beach now? And the reality is when you make a show and you make a little bit of money, you have to sell that money to live. So you don't exactly get to hold all the Bitcoin. You want to hold and make those kind of decisions. But if you have a million dollars in Bitcoin right now, or maybe 10 or 20 million, and you just want to give us one, we could hire Andy. And I'm sure he wouldn't have to do any kind of altcoin consulting. Just an idea, just putting it out there. If you have too much Bitcoin, maybe you're a billionaire and you don't know what to do with your money. You want to just drop a million dollars on the world crypto network because you want to see what will happen. This is what will happen. We'll make shows. That's what we do. But thank you guys for the questions. Thanks for the chat. We're not going to end even though the panel's up. So let's go to predictions or a story of the week. Let's skip Andy. Let's go to Gabriel. Are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Yes. First of all, I just want to say that the way to get a hold of me is on Twitter. My handle is Gabriel D. Vine. Feel free to shoot me a DM if you're too embarrassed to tweet me publicly. And I will talk to you if you're not a junk bomb scammer. My story of the week has to do with the, are my fellow panelists. JW weatherman is everywhere and everything lately. He's just really blown it. And I think he really did his homework. It's great to see a security researcher specifically coming into Bitcoin even though it took him a long time to recognize that this thing was extraordinary. But that's good. He was doing research on the monetary side of the sides of the equation that he wasn't as versed in. I had to do some reading on a cryptography when I first got, you know, with down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. I didn't, I knew, you know, very, very basic things like, you know, MD5, you know, an old hashing algorithm. But I didn't really know what was going on with that and what public key, photography was and stuff. And so, yeah, you know, good on you. I really appreciate everything that you've been putting out lately and your openness to being shown to be wrong and changing your mind when the facts say otherwise and can't wait to have some more conversations with you, especially about projects such as BISC. So welcome. Thanks, man. That's very encouraging and it's been great to connect with you on Twitter lately. All right. Let's go to JW Weatherman for a prediction or a story of the week. So my story of the week is in addition to being super encouraged by Gabriel there. My sort of day job is mathbot.com these days. And Rick, I don't know, some of you guys know him. He's one of the guys on block digest. He's now working on mathbot.com, you know, pretty good chunk of hours during the week to help us get the word out. And I'm super psyched about that. We just kind of worked that out yesterday. And we're definitely looking to scale up. So we've got the core of the code, you know, all the backend is basically done. The architecture is done. You can play the game right now. But if you have any skills at all and you care about the mission, which the mission is basically to help kids learn math, to help kids learn math by programming a robot. It's totally free. But it allows parents to incentivize kids with Bitcoin. So that Bitcoin, kids get rewarded with a little Bitcoin when they pass a level because it's hard to compete with Angry Birds with just, you know, pure fun. So anyway, if that sounds interesting, hit me up on Twitter, contact info's below. And we've used help on multiple fronts. And I think it's a great idea. I used to play lots of educational games when I was a kid, like Reader Rabbit and things like that. And I don't really see it as much anymore. I'm not exactly playing kids games, but I think they just play the more basic, flappy bird type games. And they're not, I used to have to solve like five or 10 math problems. Then I got to play flappy birds. I think that's a much better solution. Kids can learn better that way. So check that out at mathbot.com. All right. Andy Hoffman, prediction or a story of the week. Yes. Well, we talked a great length about the MacGox trusty last week. And I probably spent more time on this topic than anyone. Certainly that I see on Twitter because I think it's at least until very recently. I think it was the biggest story of the year. I mean, it's not a coincidence that the price of Bitcoin peaked the day he started selling and it stopped going down the day he stopped selling. And then as soon as he withdrew more coins, the price started plunging again. So, you know, I saw that there was 137,000 coins left. I'm going to assume that the 24,000 he withdrew on April 25th and May 10th had been sold, given that the price has been slammed on volume since. I think that's a pretty good assumption. But when I really looked into it, I realized that and again, everyone should go to steam and I did an article yesterday. It's called, it's possible the MacGox trusty is done selling if not that little remains because between the amounts that he sold already, not to mention the B cash people forget he also had an equal amount of B cash. And also the fact that the amount that whoever is actually in on this lawsuit and I doubt that really that many people who are at MacGox are in on the lawsuit because it was I'm not in it. I was at MacGox. It's a pain the neck. A lot of Japanese documents, a lot of work to get nothing. You're going to get $483 a Bitcoin and there's all this Bitcoin that's now worth $7,500 and a lot of it was sold by the MacGox trusty at much higher levels and all the B cash that was sold. So I don't I think there's a good chance he doesn't really need to sell any more. And if he does, it's going to be a very small amount. The rest of the Bitcoin, let's say he had to sell nothing or let's say he has 30,000 left to sell. 30,000 is nothing when people are thinking he's got 137,000. The rest of that Bitcoin is sadly enough going to go to Mark Carpellis because that's the Japanese bankruptcy law. It says the shareholders of the institution get the get the whatever's left over and that's going to be after the lawyers and the 408 through dollars of coin with a few people in on the lawsuit. Mark Carpellis is 88% in MacGox and there's some other shareholders 12%. Now he's made it very clear that he doesn't want to do any more damage to Bitcoin, particularly if he has 100,000 coins or 70,000 coins. He may do, he may pursue if there is lawsuits, a civil rehabilitation type of settlement which means you would actually distribute Bitcoin or either way, I don't you know, even if he had to liquidate them to do whatever he wants to you know, restart MacGox or just keep the money himself. There's no way he's going to be doing what this guy did. He'd be smart enough to use the OTC market. So while even a week or two ago, I was fearful and I think there's a big percentage of people in the Bitcoin market who are still fearful, I am no longer fearful. And I think as this kind of math spreads out around the institutions, that's why I feel more confident that you're going to see a higher low and you're going to see institutions come in because they realize that the end of this you know, indiscriminate liquidation is a lot closer than they perhaps thought. All right, thanks so much Andy and thanks to everybody for watching. It's been a great show. My story of the week is kind of personal. I moved to Las Vegas. That's why I put the Bitcoin Las Vegas.org link in there. I'm trying to work on a meetup. I think that we have a really good possibility here in Vegas, not just to spread the word to the local people that live here, but also to the 40 million tourists that come through Las Vegas every year. I don't know if you guys know, but there are a lot of Bitcoin ATMs here. I think that a lot of outreach could be done teaching people to put $20 in the machine, get a receipt that is their Bitcoin, take that back to their people in Iowa and tell them about Bitcoin, maybe two of them buy Bitcoin and they tell two friends and they tell two friends and they tell two friends. So if you're in the Las Vegas area and you'd like to help me spread the word about Bitcoin, sign up at bitcoinlosfegas.org or if you're nearby and you want to just attend to have a cool meetup, there might be some speakers and some other things like that. We're going to be starting a Bitcoin meetup in Las Vegas and go nights, right? The nights are in the Stanley Cup, so very cool. That's about it for this show, Gabriel's frowning because he hates sports, but he loves the nights in Las Vegas. No, I was smiling, man. I think it's great. Okay. Well, that's good because I'm excited. That's about it. Until next time, leave us a comment down below. Give us a thumbs up and a share. Bye. Bye. Bye.