The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Kyle Torpy from KyleTorpy.com. Oh, hey everyone, how's it going? Good to be here. Jeffrey Jones from the Bitcoin News Show. The absolute most sharpest Satoshi's right here, fellas, right here, guys. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one, Bitcoin futures. Not only is the Chicago-based CME Group launching Bitcoin futures, they've announced a date, December 18th. Bitcoin futures start trading in just 10 days. The market reacted accordingly and is rising. Hasdaq, however, has slowed their Bitcoin futures project, perhaps getting cold feet. With the CEO downplaying Bitcoin and backing away. Kyle Torpy, how will the launch of Bitcoin futures affect the Bitcoin market? It's going to be interesting to see what happens. I don't want to make a prediction here and then make myself look like a fool. But you'll have people who haven't been able to short Bitcoin coming in. You've had avenues of shorting in the past through OKcoin and other exchanges, but those are big coin exchanges and big institutions and big traders might not want to use them. They also might not be enough liquidity on them for what they're trying to do. So you'll have the shorts coming in. Jim Kramer was talking about, who's going to today or last night, you saying the shorts are going to come in and crush the Bitcoin price and crush all this. Now, that's certainly what Wall Street is saying. Wall Street saying all the smart money, Kyle, you got to meet yourself. It's equin back. But all the smart, all the smart money is going to come in and crush Bitcoin. But then what I would worry about if I was them is all the extra demand for Bitcoin. Because yeah, that could happen. Smart money comes out. Future's short. It's like crazy. But if the demand comes back, all those people could get wrecked. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, you also have institutions that haven't been able to access the Bitcoin price that will use these futures to do that as well. So it's kind of something's got to give. It's either going to be these new shorts coming in for the first time or these new buyers that want access to the Bitcoin price, like bigger institutions for the first time. So it'll be interesting to see what happens. It seems like a lot of the banks are kind of split on whatever they want to do. So we saw Goldman Sachs is going to offer the futures product to some of their clients. I think TD Ameritrade is thinking about doing that. But then like JP Morgan, and I think it was city, are saying, no, we're not going to do this. We're not going to offer this to our clients. It's too risky. The day, it was either yesterday, the day before the guy from the world, Bank of Scotland, was saying they shouldn't even be offering this futures product for Bitcoin. So institutions also split on what will happen as well. I don't know. It'll be interesting to watch. I don't want to make any predictions. No predictions from Kyle just asking everyone at home to give us a thumbs up and a share so that more people can find the show. We have about 430 live viewers right now. Jeffrey Jones, your thoughts on the Bitcoin and the futures. Yeah, it's there's a it's getting really big. There's a few different places that announced futures now, you know, in addition to the CME, which include of course the CBLE and the NASDAQ. Everybody at some point is going to offer every major financial services, going to have to offer futures and then of course comes the ETFs. And this is not going to slow down any amount at all. There is a lot of fear out there, of course, about this whole shorting Bitcoin into dust and things like that. And I believe that that's going to be nothing but fud. There's just this is the first time we can act the, you know, the huge institutional money actually has access to Bitcoin. So that in no way tells me that this thing is going to be shorter than nothing. The demand is absolutely so huge and so pent up. And the need to own this asset is absolutely so important due to its non-corollary attributes. It's just it's just going to be huge. Now, of course, you know, if you would have looked at what happened with the price activity, just recently we saw the price go up so fast that yes, I guess according to that 20% they have to shut down. They would have shut down about three or four times in one single day because they do say that they don't want to really facilitate anything bigger than 20% moves. They're going to have to shut down. So I mean, that's going to be really interesting. There's going to be a lot of interesting price discovery here. Also, of course, these things they shut down on weekends and, you know, and evenings. And so it's going to get it's going to get really crazy. I'm not sure how again, this is people trying to put you know Bitcoin in a round box, you know, they're trying to put it in a specific type of box. And you know, Bitcoin doesn't fit into these, any of these, these holes, these regular financial institute, these regular financial instruments. So it's going to be really fun to watch. And you know, I can't really make any too many predictions either. My only prediction is that this is just the beginning. There's going to be huge amounts of activity of Bitcoin on Wall Street in Chicago on all the major financial markets across the world. So this is just the beginning. The liquidity is going to come. It's just waiting. It's just huge. And especially when it went over 10,000. And after all of the activity that we went through this year after the UASF, after the No2X, huge institutional money is coming in. We see this with the price rises. There is just huge, huge, huge demand. And I just see it going no way, but going up. And remember, if they don't offer it because they were talking about the abilities to like not offer shorts very much or not have not for shorts in the beginning or even, you know, things like that. I mean, if anything like that happened, the price would just skyrocket to the moon. There is, there is nowhere for this asset to go, but absolutely to the moon. I'm surprised they try to shut down on nights and weekends for normal markets, like say Apple stock. Most people don't have access to after hours trading. That's more of a brokerage or higher end thing. So when I see bad news for Apple in the evening, I can't do anything. But Bitcoin is the opposite. Everyone has access to Bitcoin trading. We're all doing it at any hour of the day right now. So Bitcoin is plummeting. Of course, the smart money is going to have access to their money. It's going to seem like these controlled things, the futures are bad money. Seems like very unsafe to not be going 24, 7 Kyle. What do you think should they go 24, 7? Just real quick. Sorry, just want to say sorry. Kyle, just it's really important for people to understand that this is this is going to be a perfect example of good money pushing out bad money. It's going to be huge. Let's go to Kyle. I was setting up my charger there, but I think your question was if the future should go 24, 7. How will they compete if the rest of the market's going 24, 7 and they're stuck on this 9 to 5. If there's all these major moves in the evening, it seems like traders are going to be able to outplay these future people. I'm not really sure. It might be a regulatory thing. That's not really my area of expertise. I don't know if they're not allowed to let trading go on 24, 7. But I mean, yeah, I guess that's a good point. Like your G-daxes, your Gemini's can trade 24, 7. But the exchanges can only trade 9 to 5 or whatever. That's a good point. I never really thought about that yet. So that's kind of a leg up for the traditional Bitcoin exchange. It does have a lot to do with the regulation. I mean, this is, remember, there's a whole lot. There's 100 plus years of regulation around securities and this type of thing. So it's very, very strict. And that's why the US has the most secure financial system, the most secure financial market on the planet because of those regulations. Now, obviously, over the years, we've gotten overregulated. And then the regulators got captured. And so that's not the greatest thing in the world. And that's why Bitcoin is here. Right. So it's just important for people to remember that this is really, this is going to be an example of Bitcoin clashing up against the traditional financial system. Because remember, Bitcoin is that brick wall. You will not go past that if you try to shorten it. If you try to, you know, outsmart, if you try to deny it, if you try to not add Bitcoin to your company, I mean, or to your financial offerings for your customers, you will suffer the consequences. And just to counterpoint to that, what I previously said, like the traditional exchanges, like the CME, CBOE, also have a leg up in that some institutions, some traders are only going to trust those highly regulated institutions that have been here for a while. They're not going to want to use a traditional Bitcoin exchange maybe. So they're just waiting for more regulated market. So they'll feel safer about their money. And let's hope they feel safe starting at about 10 days. Let's move on to the exit question, which would you rather have Bitcoin futures or a Bitcoin ETF and why Kyle Torpe? That's a tough one. I mean, Bitcoin ETF, the idea there has always been, or at least with the original one from the link of us twins, was they were going to hold the actual Bitcoin. But now it seems like the ones that will have a chance to go live are going to be based on the futures. So it's going to be like a derivative of a derivative, I guess. So that's never causes any trouble at all. So in that sense, if these ETFs are going to be based on the futures, I guess I'd rather have the future directly, rather than another derivative based on it, although I'm not sure where the risk is there. But I also wouldn't really be that interested in a Bitcoin ETF. If it's done like the link of us ones for twins ETF was going to be set up because they had no insurance on the Bitcoin underlying Bitcoin that was. You know what they base the value of their ETF on. And I know I think that's how it works with the gold ETFs as well, but I mean with Bitcoin, it's a little different because it can be stored very easily, but it can also be, I would say stolen more discreetly. Maybe it's like you don't go into a building and log out these bricks of gold. So go into a building and find out what the key is and bring it out. Although I'm sure they the way they have it set up is like, you know, they'd have multiple keys all around different, maybe safe deposit boxes or different locations around the world. Maybe they'll use a big bunker like we saw Zappo has out in Switzerland or wherever it was in Europe. The Winkle Vi ETF was a very tough sell because the Winkle Vi were supplying the asset, holding the asset, pricing the asset, running the ETF. There was just a lot of Winkle Vi in that package. I wish they diversified use some different services combined with some other people. They might have had a better chance of being allowed Jeffrey Jones and ETF or futures. Well, you got to remember the futures come before the ETFs. It's a process and these instruments complement each other. So first we're going to get these these future markets and then we'll come the ETFs and it's just going to be people don't understand how huge this is going to be. It really all depends on the settlement, right? If they're going to do settlement and cash or Bitcoin, that's going to affect really to see if the exchange is going to do well or not because that's going to affect everything. And because remember Bitcoin is a limited supply. There is only every 21 million coins. If you try to short this asset, you're going to have your face ripped off. I mean, there's only around 15 million or so that that's even accessible and only around a million or so that's liquid in the markets at any given time. I mean, this is the whole world fighting over a few million coins. So yeah, be very, very careful if you're going to short this asset. Well, it's really all about bringing new flows of money into Bitcoin. The futures presumably are traders looking to short or long to make a position on the market. Whereas the ETF I would think are more holders and long-term investments. People with retirement accounts, big money that could just hold longer. So I'd rather have the ETF. Sure, just that the futures markets is what keeps the ETFs in check, right? The futures markets is where you can hedge. And so you have we have to have a futures market so that we can have some kind of, you know, security so we can have some kind of hedge. We have some kind of idea of what is what's going to happen. Well, I think we're going to have a futures market and I think we're going to have a lot of faceless people running around. So we're going to have to hold on to that and see how that goes. Moving on to issue three issue. Oh, issue two we're moving slowly. Bitcoin price. The price of Bitcoin rose dramatically all the way to a new all time high around 19,000 on Gdaqs before falling into the $14,000 range. Then it rose again. At show time, the price was seemingly up in the $15,000 range. Jeffrey Jones is this the top of Bitcoin? Will the price rise further or fall? Well, first let's let's just let's just keep let's just understand something here, right? We have these huge companies like Coinbase and blockchain that are trying to shove the Segwit 2x upgrade down our throat for the last few months, you know, citing all this importance about we have to scale now. The sky is falling. We have to scale now. And then now that we have Segwit here ready and waiting what the community wanted. They're not activating it. So I mean, we see there we see when there's actual real demand coming in, we see their entire infrastructure crumble. We see the entire infrastructure go down. And this is this is the same companies that we're pushing side with 2x. And so, you know, Bitcoin is much more ready than people think. However, the standard centralized infrastructure that surrounds it is not. That will have stress put on it. And so there are, you know, there are engineers working on scaling for the blockchain, which is like lightning and layers above. Then there's then you got to get your engineers working on your centralized infrastructure, notify to facilitate and on board these new customers from the traditional systems. This is completely irresponsible of these companies to go ahead and try to push all of this upgrades on top of Bitcoin. Meanwhile, their entire infrastructure is just waiting to get wrecked. The technology choices that Coinbase made is laughable at best. They really, really, really need to know they really, really get to get the whole, but what the, they need to get their stuff together people. I mean, this is ridiculous. The site went down three or four times the other day during these rallies. We can't kind of, we can't have this stuff if we're trying to unborder the whole world. Now, it is early days, but you know, this is something that the people have to be aware of. I want to make this very, very aware and very clear to the world of what happened here. So, so we don't forget and don't make these same mistakes again. Now, the price, I mean, I don't ask me to call it top, Thomas. I'm not going to be sitting here calling it top, but I can tell you this. I mean, if we, if we just hold around 13,000, I mean, if we just do a couple of extrapolations, we can get the 45 grand real easily next year. And so it's all up to see if the world is going to choose, but right now the world is making a decision on what money is. The whole world is having a conversation. And like Trace Mayor says, look, you have, you have the dollar, you have gold and you have Bitcoin. What is going to win out of all those three? What is the best asset? What is the most secure, accessible, you know, guaranteed asset? And out of all those Bitcoin wins hands down every time, time and time again. So, where's the price going to go, Thomas? To me, it's going to go nowhere, but up, of course, we're going to have some corrections. And we've been all waiting for the correction since about 5,000 or so. I think we've been waiting for the correction. But at the end of the day, look, there's just huge demand for this asset. There's only a few million coins that the whole planet is going to be fighting over. Expect this asset to continue to rise. It was very unfortunate during the price rise. Many articles were written saying that the Bitcoin infrastructure had gone down and that the Bitcoin infrastructure couldn't handle the demand. When actually we're sending transactions just fine on the blockchain. It's these centralized institutions that we've set up to provide a bridge to the fiat world that we're having trouble during the price rise. Kyle Torpy, what about the price of Bitcoin up, down, worth it? So, yeah, so we, to Fortress' point about this Segwit 2x stuff with these companies that try to push it through the failure of that kind of proved the digital gold use case. At least for now, that was kind of a threat to like this idea that Bitcoin's a censorship resistant permissionless layer for payments across the world. And we kind of found out that a couple of companies and miners can't push through changes to the protocol whenever they feel like it. Not to mention their developers seem to be incompetent and they couldn't even, wouldn't have even be able to do it if they had more support. So we've seen this digital gold meme. I've seen it like everywhere all over Bloomberg, CNBC, all these like big financial news outlets have been talking about the digital gold meme more than like using Bitcoin for payments. Once the 2x hard fork failed, I wrote a piece for Forbes talking about how it proves that it's like digital gold at the base layer and how it can do a better trustless PayPal with things like lightning or side chains or a bunch of different, a bunch of different solutions for layer 2 to do a faster, cheaper, better payments in a more trustless manner. But in terms of the price over the short term, I mean, we've seen a lot of dumb money, I would say, for lack of a better term, entering the space lately, you see people asking questions related to whether or not they can buy or sell less fraction of a Bitcoin stuff like that. There's been pieces in the Wall Street Journal about grandma's buying Bitcoin and not knowing what it's actually called. I forget what they thought it was called a botcoin or a... I keep hearing stories about people that go to Coinbase's interface and they want to buy a Bitcoin but they end up buying some Litecoin or some Ethereum because it's cheaper. And the interface doesn't seem to explain to you at all that you can buy a fraction of a Bitcoin and we're talking about basic UI design here Coinbase, you've had years and years, you tell people, hey, you can buy $20 worth of Bitcoin unless, of course, they're trying to sell the other currencies instead of Bitcoin, which is a surprise. Well, I think they've made their stance on Bitcoin versus Ethereum pretty clear over the past year to Coinbase is definitely pumping Ethereum and there's there's really no other way to look at that. I don't know why they're doing that if they think they're going to have work control over the protocol or... It's not going to end well. They're not thinking about the future. I don't know. I mean, Badlake Bryan has made a lot of bad decisions or bad statements over the years where he says he comes out and says something and then the next day something happens and whether it's like... I don't know, I don't want to get into that. We're going to go to topic four on that later but some other Bitcoin companies like BitPay did replace their early CEOs and the early CEOs led them to a lot of success but also led them to the Bitcoin bowl. After that, we didn't hear much about the early CEOs but we'll talk about that more in a minute. Anything more on the price, Kyle? The one thing I would say when it comes to... If this is a bubble and we have a list of money coming in with Uber drivers talking about their ICO that they're launching, I think something that could pop the bubble that I think is kind of inevitable is like a... some kind of government crackdown on Bitcoin in some way because there's so many different things going on in Bitcoin that someone like Trump would point at and go like we need to shut down Bitcoin. I remember there was a guy, I think was a senator on CNN earlier this year was saying we need to go after Bitcoin and shut it down and cut it off from North Korea because they might be mining or they might be hacking South Korean exchanges. So you got like North Korea, you got like the opioid epidemic in the US which a lot of that is not a lot of that but there is an element of the darknet markets and people importing fentanyl from China into the US through that route. There's a lot of different ways and they can like say Bitcoin is evil and we should ban it and someone like Trump I could see going that route now whether or not it would be successful. I mean the success of the ban would be one thing like pushing some kind of new law and then actually enforcing that law would be even more difficult. But I don't think they could even pass any kind of law to ban it because of the PGP cases from the 90s that you can fall back on where they said PGP can't be banned because it's free speech or whatever. People were like printing the code for PGP and books and wearing t-shirts and walking across international borders to prove their point about free speech. I like that argument but I don't think you're going to get it by gore such the new Supreme Court is not the old Supreme Court. I would you would lose that one I think. Yeah I mean we'll have to see what happens but I think a big crackdown on Bitcoin from like a Western government I think it's closer than people think. Once again it would be the biggest advertising opportunity for Bitcoin ever that thing you've never heard of where banning and once again everyone knows anything the government bands is something you should look into. Jeffrey Jones the price of Bitcoin this time next week higher and lower and you agree with Kyle will we see a government ban soon. Well I mean we have to remember the IRS have already said their piece the Finson has already said their piece the SEC has already said their piece we've already gotten all the information from these these huge three letter agencies that we kind of need. And as Finson said way back a couple years ago back in 2013 they have all of the laws that they need already in place all the money laundering laws already in place to help to facilitate this asset. So if there is a government crackdown I just don't see much of a government crackdown in the in the US because there's going to there's so much demand for it there's just so much demand for it. And now with with Wall Street trying to get in here dipping their toe I mean something tells me there's going to be a whole lot of lobbying on Wall Street to make sure that Bitcoin does not become illegal and things like that because you got to remember so many people so many politicians so many banksters they're all lining their pockets with Bitcoin right now. They can a lot of the smart ones can see the future and so you know they can they know what's going on they see what's happening with the dollar because you just got to flip that Bitcoin chart upside down that's what's happening to the dollar and that's not going to slow down eventually when it does start like a vortex and black hole almost right like when it when it sucks all liquidity out of all these other different things maybe they will see something. But even then I mean instead of set of that they'll just switch over now it's not going to be a pretty thing the whole transition right it's not going to be smooth it's going to go it's going to be a little rough but I just don't see it playing out like any type of post apocalyptic any type of draconian come down ban all all things Bitcoin anything like that I see a few companies trying to fight and then eventually losing. This is going to be like when all the library stopped being used and started becoming computer labs and everyone wrote these beautiful stories about libraries you'll see them about banks remember when you used to go to the bank and get change remember when you go to an ATM and get your 40 bucks for the weekend how pennies come and rolls all we need to save the banks what about the banks Kyle should we save the banks as they're all being shut down and the price of Bitcoin this time next week higher or lower. I'm not saying the banks think about the tellers I'm sure that will be the mantra coming out of congress is save the banks or the economy is going to collapse. Just sort of clarify what I meant with the government crackdown I think it would be kind of similar to the China situation in late 2013 where like maybe we'll see like a political movement kind of from within Congress or a certain section of our political leaders in the US. We'll come out and be like we need to ban Bitcoin because of these things that they can easily point to like save the children terrorism stuff like that they normally would. And in terms of the price I think I think the initial reaction to that would be a pullback on the price and I think it would pop if we are in a short term bubble I think it would pop that bubble. I could see that being where this run run up in price eventually ends was kind of my point there and takes the government to slay the dragon that's the only thing that. It's what I see would be what would happen but in terms of the price next week I'll say higher. Higher higher is always a good bet especially the way things been going lately every night I'm like I'll sell a little bit and I'll wait till tomorrow and then it's higher oh no moving on I just like to thank everyone for giving us a thumbs up in the share we have 914 viewers thanks everyone for your tips in the super chat I'm not looking at the chat right now but I appreciate your. Moving on to issue three Bitcoin outlawed as Bitcoin becomes mainstream more and more financial luminaries are taking their chance to speak out against the fledgling cryptocurrency this week it was no bell prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz who joined the phrase saying that Bitcoin ought to be outlawed because it serves no societal function. Kind of a societal function. Kyle Torpey I ask you does Bitcoin service a societal function should it be outlawed. Yeah I forgot this is the third topic so I already kind of got into this bit but I mean the thing I could add here is that we've also seen like I brought up North Korea is a bad guy that the government can point to that may or not be using Bitcoin. That no on the dark net dark net markets with the opioid epidemic in the US another thing is central bankers want to have control of the money supply so they might try to make some kind of argument where for the economic stability of the nation we need to have control the money supply and this Bitcoin things get out of control and we need to remember that goes back to the creation of central bankers there needs to be someone controlling those levers making the government go or the economy go up and down so we have less booms and bugs. Even though it reacted in larger booms and busts but that's all opinion go ahead Kyle. Yeah and I mean all the economists that are advising our politicians and people in Congress and power are pretty much of the belief that the government should be in control of the money supply and be able to regulate it as they in their view calm the booms and weaken the bus. So it's a lot like those D.A. agents who need the marijuana bus to justify themselves if the economist couldn't control the economy what do you need an economist for. Yeah exactly. I don't think I really have anything else to add there let Jeffrey take over all right Jeff should we outlaw Bitcoin no function at all. Well so you have to understand there's only a few people that are going to be screaming this and they're going to mostly be Kenzians this this goes back to the whole fight between Austrian economics versus Kenzian economics and at this point again Wall Street has so much at stake in Bitcoin they see they see the potential of this there's just no they want a piece of this there's just no way that they're going to not attempt to get a piece of this any type of massive band like that would would would totally mess that up so they they really want a piece of this and I think that's a lot of the kind of that is really the way I'm going to be going to be able to see that. So they really want a piece of this and my opinion they are my opinion there of the opinion that the only way to control or get a control on this is to keep it legal is to put put the financial assets out there so that they can feel in control so that they can feel like okay oh it's it's within our centralized systems no problem now we can really control it well that's what they think but it's not of course going to play out like that and remember we have thousands of currencies out there there's thousands of crypto currencies what are they going to do like ban crypto is not going to be a good thing. Like ban crypto in general they can't do that they ban Bitcoin okay well I guess we'll we'll just use all the other currencies and then settle back into Bitcoin I mean there's just at this point the Pandora's box has been opened though it is early days there's there's just still so much growth in the sector this is the hottest sector this is the hottest industry that has that has ever been for many many many hundreds of years there's no way that these financial institutions of the world are not going to get in. I'm moving on to the exit question why can't the older generation and the financial wizards of the past understand this newfangled Bitcoin and your answers should probably include the word computers computers Kyle go ahead. I will a lot of economists like to use computers to come up with their little science lab experiments of what the economy is but they don't really pay much attention to actual the actual economy at least you know they'll they'll try to apply or they'll try to apply micro lessons to the macro economy stuff like that what's your actual question. What just why can't they get it this older generation especially of people winning Nobel prizes these are smart people they should be able to analyze new systems I don't know why they can't because their whole everything they've been saying over their entire careers being proven wrong by Bitcoin like that's the easy way to enter that one like especially Krugman Krugman I think his first blog about Bitcoin was in like 2011 or something if I'm out mistaken he blogged about it a few times and he's been quiet and I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm going to buy it his last statement if I am correct was when Bitcoin was like $200 and he was at some like economic forum so $200 is probably like 2013 2014 and he was asked about Bitcoin and he like kind of laughed and he said well the Bitcoin isn't really looking good very very good right now and and then he that was literally at like the bottom of the bull run that we're in right now which is kind of funny. It's embarrassing for them it just keeps happening they call it dead it comes back they say it's a bubble it keeps coming back Jeffrey Jones why can't they understand Bitcoin. Yeah Bitcoin has died over 200 times according to the Bitcoin obituary is over there and you know it's really difficult because it's people don't understand I can really really sympathize and empathize with people who don't fully understand Bitcoin because it does take so many disciplines to really grasp it and it is an infinite rabbit hole you can have a very surface love. You have a very surface level understanding all the way down down down from you know from the surface all the way down it can really really get really deep and so but as Kyle said this really is a square peg that they're trying to fit into around whole this flips the whole Kenzian understanding on its head basically completely proves them wrong proves all of their economic theories completely wrong and so it's a really Bitcoin remains a tough pill to swallow and if that's not going to change anytime soon this really is something completely different. It's a completely new digital asset class that is very very hard to wrap your head around I mean this is so abstract this is the most abstract version of money we've ever had and so you know it makes sense that it gets a little bit difficult to understand which is why I really implore these people who supposedly have one noble prizes and things like that to listen to the people on the ground listen to things like the world crypto network listen to the developer is like Eric Lomburoso listen to the people that are in this community that donate their time about this this type of stuff and it's going to be a lot of things like that. This type of stuff and you'll really get a much clearer picture about what's going on and you know it's true that crypto economists really are about the only real economists because traditional economists just run their theories and their computers in their labs and but crypto economists can run all their theories in real time with real money and real networks in real world scenarios this is this is huge stuff this is part of crypto economics is a huge part of this global financial Renaissance and make no mistake these people are going to find out the truth and the truth is that the real world is going to work on the next. and make no mistake. These people are going to find out the truth. And the truth is that decentralization wins. The truth is that deflationary is the best scenario. The truth is that the system that we've had for the past for 100 years or so has completely sucked out all the value out of the regular average day working hard people. And so this is something that we're trying to change with Bitcoin and bring money back to the people. And I think that's one of the reasons it's so hard to sell Bitcoin because people don't even know what their money is. Their money changed in the 1920s. It changed again in the 1970s. And people aren't aware of central banking, inflationary money, fiat currency. And they aren't aware that we're off the gold standard as well. They don't really look into their money. It's ignored yet everywhere. Kyle, you had more to add on this? Yeah, I wanted to add to the like science lab, like the economists with their little experiments that are in a controlled environment and all that kind of stuff. The entire point of Bitcoin is to get around that. Like these economists have been the way they think about the world. It's like this world where everything can be regulated. We'll just ban something. If it needs to be, we'll put the minimum wage here. We'll put all these constraints and everything will work out just as we want. Bitcoin doesn't care about any of that. The entire point is it comes out of this idea of the Cypherpunks and Crypto Energy where you can't ban it. You can't do anything about it. It's here and deal with it basically. Well, and so many sciences and even philosophies take place in a vacuum. They say, what if this was true or what if that was true? And we can try out all of our ideas and we can have this whole logical exercise. But the problem is that's not true. When I look to change the world, when I look for useful things, things like Bitcoin, what I look for is bootstrapping the flexibleness, the ability for the plan to change on the ground and for it to react to conditions because there's never going to be a reset point. We're never going to say, oh, we're going back to zero. We're going to get rid of all the fiat currency. We're going to try things again. Now, it's always going to be this mess, this flexible, complex mess like working in IT. You come into somebody's server room. It's so many problems to fix, so confusing. But if you have this one thing, if you have this Bitcoin, I think you can change it. We can find a way through this. Just, it's just really important to remember we are now living in a world with Bitcoin. There is no going back. The world completely changed. In 2009, the traditional financial system died in 2009. In 2009, we'll be looked at as the beginning of this golden age that is going to come because we're giving money back to the people. And that's what's strange about what's going on right now with the price. It's not about everyone getting rich, although that's very nice. It's more about being proven right. That the things we were saying about Bitcoin, that it was revolutionary in 2013 and 2014, even 2012, people were talking about this. They were all right. All the economists, people, all the urine, a bubble, your tulips, your joke, all the criticalness that we had to face early on, they were all wrong. And now, as the price continues to go up and demand continues to drive that price up, things are shifting. And they're all coming back and they're like, oh, maybe it's OK, maybe the blockchain's OK. Maybe the ICOs are OK. Maybe this is, and they're eventually coming down to the fact that Bitcoin has always been OK. It's always worked the way we said it did. And it's been amazing ever since then. That's why you have people like Andreas who read about Bitcoin and then lost his mind for two weeks had to read about Bitcoin constantly when on this whole thing changed this whole career. Other people like myself started volunteering and making videos. Other people got into Twitter or trading or whatever they wanted to get into. Bitcoin has brought this out of people because at its core, it's truth of what those finished researchers said. They said, Bitcoin is a monopoly on the rules. It's a monopoly on these very basic rules, 21 million units, one-way sending structure of halvings every four years. These are the rules of Bitcoin. It's just that simple. But it takes people a long time to get to it. They don't know about money. They don't know about any of this. But they're going to find out soon. It's been very exciting watching this happen. Let's move on to issue four, Coinbase down. It happened again. Coinbase and GDACs were both unavailable during the height of the Bitcoin rally, robbing users of their right to double down or take profit due to overwhelming demand on Coinbase's servers. It happened as a price broke $15,000 with Coinbase's app rising to the top of the app store and claims of eight times the traffic of their previous spike. They promised to do better the next time, but many are beginning to have their doubts. Additionally, Coinbase has failed to announce a timeline or to simply adopt segregated witness. Jeffrey Jones is Coinbase prime for disruption. Will they be able to withstand the challenge from Jack Dorsey of Twitter Fames? Square Cash. Look, I've never really been a huge fan of Coinbase. Ever since they started going with their AML KYC kind of things, you know, I knew it was doomed. I knew it was doomed. This is a temporary thing. Coinbase is a temporary step part of a temporary stage of the onboarding of Bitcoin, of the beginning of Bitcoin, hyperbiccoinization. And so in the long run, I just, you know, Brian Armstrong has made every wrong decision that you could possibly make, nearly taken down Coinbase with the whole Ethereum and Ethereum classic split that he was not prepared for. He continues to go on television and say completely ridiculous things like Segwit is not in our top five customer requests. I definitely urge everybody who thinks that Segwit needs to have, who thinks that Coinbase needs to adopt Segwit. Please go to their support ticket, create a support ticket, you know, overwhelm their freaking support people and say, look, we need Segwit. They tried to shove the Segwit to X down our throat, completely take over the actual repo. And now they're telling us that Segwit's not a priority when they said that the absolute whole sky was falling just a couple months ago or just a month ago. You know, people just need to understand. They tried to overtake the repo. Bitcoin is Bitcoin is github.com slash Bitcoin. It is not github.com slash BTC1. They literally tried to overtake the repo. And so the community saw through this absolutely quickly, super transparent and we thought back. Now, if Brian Armstrong wants to make good on this, he better activate Segwit because there's all of these huge decentralized exchanges that are coming in. I'm going to do a show on this. I believe the 17th, not this Sunday, but the next Sunday. We're going to try to have Biscone. We're going to try to have altcoin.io. I think it's called on. And there's just all sorts of decentralized exchanges. That are definitely in the process. Now, Coinbase, you know, what's kind of like Netscape. Really Coinbase is kind of like Bitcoin's Netscape. It's this first simple thing, this first simple interface to this new digital world that you can become familiar with and the holds your hand and things like that. But eventually, the internet will be big. Eventually, like the internet, Bitcoin will be ubiquitous in every device, in every browser, in every plug-in and everything. And you won't have to rely on something as centralized as Coinbase. Their biggest, biggest, biggest claim to fame is they built it to convert Bitcoin from Fiat. And that, again, is an on-ramp that we will need in this beginning stage. But eventually, we will not need. And Brian Armstrong, in my opinion, his time is limited because of all the bad decisions that he's made and continues to make. We need, as a community, we need to hold him accountable for this. I agree, Jeff. Bitcoin is definitely a bridge. Coinbase is a bridge that brings Fiat money from Fiat world into Bitcoin world. Once we have enough money in Bitcoin, everyone will have Bitcoin on your phone. It'll be easy to get $20 of Bitcoin. You'll give it to your friend. They'll give you 20. They'll give you 20. You'll give them 20. It's going to be very easy to find Bitcoin. But right now, no one has Bitcoin, so we do need these bridges. And it is a bit curious the way that Coinbase hasn't removed Brian Armstrong yet. He's been a, I'm not going to say he's been a bad CEO because it's a huge company and he's done very well. But he is kind of a junior CEO. I saw they hired kind of like an operations guy recently. He seemed very professional. I assume that this fail whale problem of Coinbase going down during these spikes facilitates the need for someone new to run this team. At the very least, to hire a better server guy to get more AWS access, I know they have incredible demand. But still, you can look at this like, if you're going to have an election or if you're going to have a new album launch, you can buy more servers than the demand. I know the demand's really high, but you have all this money, spend it on servers. Kyle, what do you think about Coinbase and their server problems? I don't really want to single them out completely because it was pretty much everyone was having trouble on yesterday or the day before. Whatever day it was when Coinbase hit like, it does seem like every time, but yeah. But yeah, but I mean, this past yesterday was like a ridiculous day for everyone. I mean, Gemini was down. Crackens have been having trouble for months anyways, but so obviously they were down to. Coinbase was down. I tried to open my treasure wallet and I couldn't get access to my balances and stuff because whatever the API they use was down. I think they use Bitcore. That wasn't working. So it was a little bit of everyone going down. But one thing to point out, Foretex brought up the point of SegWit and Coinbase was pushing this 2x hard fork as well. I guess Brian wasn't really as vocal as like Belchi and Garzaick and some of the other people behind it. But one of the points Foretex brought up, Brian was on Bloomberg and talking about how SegWit isn't like being demanded by their customers. I don't know if you guys saw it, but the customer ops manager from Blockchain saw that and tweeted out that for Blockchain, the biggest issue by far for them is high fees and unreliable transactions. And he doesn't see how that could possibly be different at all for Coinbase. And like to that point, isn't this the whole reason they wanted the hard fork as well? Like because of the high fees and the unreliable transactions? It's also as a technology company, can't be listening to your customer support to decide your technological decisions. The customer support people might not care about, some kind of S.O.T.T.R.C. number thing, but your tech people should, and you should be a technology company or Bitcoin company should be on top of us. Yeah, they might not know what SegWit is even, but they'll want lower fees and more reliable transactions, which SegWit provides. So yeah, that's really the only point I wanted to make on Coinbase. Well, it's very fair, Kyle's right. The rest of the industry went down as well. Nobody's prepared for the kind of demand that we've seen on Bitcoin, but we do hold Coinbase to a different standard. They've raised a billion dollars. They're the unicorn of the industry. We'd like to at the very least see SegWit adoption, the end of the farewell. And in addition, not just SegWit adoption, but some responsible communications here. Earlier in this week, Alan Silver and myself asked politely for Coinbase to give us a road map on SegWit adoption. This is a real standard thing, especially for a company like Coinbase, which is influencing something like Bitcoin, which is kind of like a stock. If Apple was going to release a new iPad in six months, they'd say, hey, new iPad in six months, we need to tell our stockholders. In the same way, they have this problem that they don't have SegWit. It's a technical problem. They need to tell us when they're going to release a fix. Then in two or three months, we could say, hey, where's the fix? And they could say, oh, we weren't really doing it. We just lied. And then we know they're liars. But as it is right now, they're not even giving us the timeline. So now we're like, why are you communicating so poorly, Coinbase? You have all this money. You have no doubt PR people, talented people, engineers. We had the thing yesterday where the Coinbase, Twitter account said, we're working on it. That sounds great. And everyone kind of celebrated again, just like the time they released that blog post that said they were going to keep real Bitcoin as Bitcoin. And then a few days later, they changed their mind and they said, oh, well, whatever has the longest chain is Bitcoin. Then a few days later with this SegWit thing, Brian gets on there and says, no, we're not going to do SegWit. And by the way, we're looking to hire engineers to help us do SegWit. And it was really embarrassing. You've got to stop HR managing from the community. And it looks like you don't have anyone on your staff that can do SegWit now. And that's a horrifying oversight. You should have lots of people that could do SegWit. You're a big Bitcoin company. Anyway, enough bashing on Coinbase. We do that enough. Exit question. One word, Coinbase or square, Jeffrey Jones. And that's something that's a really important question. People need to understand in Coinbase that their competition is coming. There is going to be huge competition, just like BitMain. If you think your monopoly is going to last in Bitcoin, you're wrong. The amount of incentive for people to come into Bitcoin rises by the second. And it will continue to rise. The amount of utility that we're going to get on to Bitcoin rises by the day. There is going to be so much huge things. If you think your monopoly is going to last, you're completely, completely wrong. And square is going to come. Others will come. And the competition will rain in. And finally, will give us the competition that Bitcoin really needs. Because it is, again, we try to remind people. It's early days. There's still only a few companies. There needs to be much more. But yeah, square, I'm hoping that square will provide the competition right now that Coinbase needs. It's interesting you mentioned BitMain, Jeff, because I've been watching the Mr. Robot show. And I don't want to spoil anything. But in my mind, I kind of make a little connection between BitMain, the Chinese Bitcoin minor company, and Dark Army, the Chinese evil hacker group. That is one of the big characters in Mr. Robot. And they're just so overconfident. They so believe that they have everything controlled, and they have everything tied down. And they're just going to rule the whole world. And I don't think it's going to happen for them. And I don't think it's going to happen for BitMain. It's interesting parallels there. Kyle Torpy, Coinbase or Square? It is kind of cool for Square that they kind of skipped straight ahead to the Killer App for Bitcoin, instead of like saying merchants are all around the world. We're going to accept Bitcoin and stuff like that. I mean, we've seen Coinbase do a lot of different things over the years. But at the end of the day, the only thing they really needed to make was buy Bitcoin with your bank account. That's really the Killer App. And we're seeing Square and that a Revolut app. It's like a mobile bank or something. I've never used it. But they're doing the same thing as well. So I think in circles coming out with the same kind of thing, too, circle was going to use Bitcoin for payments. Now it kind of goes back to what I was talking about with the digital gold use case. That's what Bitcoin is. And then now we have all these other coins that people can speculate on. Those are still the two main things people want to do. So if you're going to have an app that's going to be a Killer App on top of this technology, it's just going to be, I want to buy this coin. And I want to be able to sell it, too. And I just want to speculate on these coins on my phone. That's pretty much the Killer App. And I mean, it took Coinbase's credit. They were the number one app on Apple App Store, I think, yesterday. Not just like crypto or finance apps, like every single app. More people are downloading Coinbase yesterday than YouTube, which is insane. So maybe another indication. Greed for the lack of a better word is good. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think we're going to see more of these types of apps where you can just buy some crypto on your phone. And it seems to be what people want. They just want to go to the moon. They'll have a chance to go to the moon. Well, and what I'd like to see from Coinbase or from Square, they can both use this idea. Number one, I'd like them to license that program that scans the image of the credit card. So you take a picture of your credit card, step one. It automatically fills in $20. So you know you can buy less than a $10,000, $15,000 Bitcoin right away in the interface. It says, hey, $20 is this much Bitcoin. And then this light goes on your head. You're like, fractional. OK. And then you just push go and it sends you $20. And maybe put a limit on it, like $100 or whatever, because a KYC and all this nonsense. But I would like to see three steps to buy $20 with a Bitcoin, not like 20 steps. But we'll have to wait and see how Square's solution turns out. And if they don't provide it, I'm going to keep asking for it, because I want to see three steps to buy Bitcoin. Just scan, amount, go, done. But we're out of time for today. So we're moving on to predictions or a story of the week. Kyle, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Yeah, I guess I'll keep hampering on the digital gold stuff. So we've seen Ethereum being used a lot for transactions over the past. I guess over the course of this whole year, just yesterday, they passed 800,000 transactions in a single day, which is like twice as what Bitcoin. I think they're calling them kiddies now, not transactions. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so they're blockchain's getting attacked by crypto-kitties. But at the same time, the Ether price has declined 80% against Bitcoin since the peak over the summer. We also saw the Bitcoin price rise. Let's see, it was less than 1,000 in January. Now we're at 15. So 15X price rise. Transactions have been pretty much stagnant all year on the Bitcoin network. What does this tell you? The hotlers and the digital gold users are the ones that have the biggest impact on the price. I remember on Reddit, even earlier this year, you would see these posts, like how to predict the Bitcoin price. And you'd have prominent people saying this is a legitimate thing. And it was just like the number of transactions on the network squared or something. And it did track the price back in the day. But it's been completely broken this year with the 15X price rise. And the transactions are the same. When we see Ethereum transaction exploding while the price crashes against Bitcoin. So I just wanted to bring up the amount of transactions going through the network aren't really the thing that impacts the price of cryptocurrency. I just want to go ahead and look at Bitcoin cash as well. I just want to second that too. I mean, people don't understand the power that hotlers have. It's the hotlers that are going to make these future markets work. It's the hotlers that are going to have this liquidity that's going to drive up the value. It's really, really, really important. If you try to short hotlers, you're going to get wrecked. This is a very important economic dynamic of Bitcoin holding this asset. And there is just so many people out there that will die hard, hold this asset so hard before they sell that there's just no chance that you can try to go against it. It's also worth noting all the people talking about the flippening that we're going to flip over to Ethereum from Bitcoin have disappeared. All the people calling me maximalist have disappeared. And yet at the same time, what I said was too that eventually, the price of Bitcoin would rise so much that everyone who likes their altcoins, and they still like their altcoins, it's fine. They'll have to sell them into Bitcoin because it'll be going up hundreds of percent a day, which now seems to be happening. And if you look at things like the alt-pocalypse recently, where they are all down 30%, then they're down 30% the next day, that's what we described happening. And that's what's happening. So you can go back and watch the old shows if you don't believe me. Jeffrey Jones prediction or story of the week. Just a quick story of the week, I guess. Andreus was out there. I just thought it was pretty hilarious that Roger, he trolls these old school of Bitcoiners. It's completely ridiculous. He trolls the old school of Bitcoiners that still are with the core belief, that still believe in the core development process. And it's kind of funny because this one pretty much backfired as well as it possibly could. He pretty much literally dist, Andreus, for not being rich on Bitcoin. And because of that, even in people like Bruce Fenton, they created little videos to tell people that, look, most of the actual original old school of Bitcoin people aren't Bitcoin rich. They had to sell in order to stay in the Bitcoin space. Your only choice was get a day job, a regular soul sucking day job or sell your Bitcoin to stay in Bitcoin. So a lot of the old school Bitcoin people really don't have a whole lot of Bitcoin. So we have to give them thanks and thank them for their sacrifice. And, you know, Andreus definitely got thanked pretty well. He got over a million dollars in donations. And that's pretty awesome. But I definitely think people need to really thank voluntary organizations like us, like the World Crypto Network. People need to think these open source communities that provide their time and their passion for the good of the better of humanity, the good of the planet. So just thanks again to Andreus and everything that he taught us. There must be a tough one out there to be old, roger veer, and you know, criticize these people and have the internet give them a million dollars. And you support this big B2X project and becomes nothing. Now you're supporting the big B-cash project, Bitcoin Cash. And it's not going well. You just can't seem to get anything right. But once again, he has a billion dollars. He could go retire on a beach. He could get some therapy. He could do all these things. Everything's open to you, Raj. I was just going to talk about soft puppets from the Dragonstone that sent Andreus that million dollars. So it was a real big deal. It was all trolls. It was all fake, fake people, fake donations. But yeah, it's been fun seeing the internet reward Andres. It's totally worth it, totally worth it. And again, he's, I don't think he has money. He's been out there traveling doing this for years. And it's a good time to end the show. Just like to thank everybody for watching. We do accept Bitcoin donations here. I think this is the new Segwit address. I tried to change over all the graphics. I'm pretty sure I did. But obviously, if you want to give us a million dollars, we're totally open to that. We're sitting here waiting. But otherwise, we just like it if you give us a thumbs up and a share. It helps more people find the show. If it's your first time here, please subscribe down below. 33% of people watching this are not subscribed. Let's see if we can get that down to like 32, maybe 31%. You can also put a little notification icon that'll tell you when we have shows. And we do shows all the time here. We'll be back tomorrow with a today in Bitcoin show. And then on Sunday with Jeffrey Jones and the Bitcoin News. So check that out. And until next time, bye, bye.