The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Sitochis, the best Bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Jimmy Song, Bitcoin developer. Hey everybody. Tom Vays from Liberty Life Trail. Hey guys. Jeffrey Jones from the Bitcoin News Show. Hey guys, happy Thanksgiving, happy holidays. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one, net neutrality. If Trump's FCC repeals net neutrality, elites will rule the internet and the future. Net neutrality, the basic rule that allows all packets to be treated equal. The first amendment of the internet is under threat from the Trump administration. Trump's FCC is expected to vote on December 7th in a 5-3 vote to end net neutrality, allowing ISPs to discriminate on traffic. This would allow AT&T who owns direct TV to favor their traffic and make Netflix slower. This would end competition on the internet and end innovation in the future. But there are two sides and many believe that the market could simply solve this problem. Jimmy Song, net neutrality, a big problem or a big nothing. Well here's the problem. You have a lot of ISPs that have pseudo monopolies over various places. And if that wasn't the problem, if that didn't exist then you wouldn't really need neutrality because people would want, you would have competition and being able to offer more access to more things. And I'm a parent, I'd like some package that filters certain things that my kids can't see or whatever. So to some degree part of the problem is that there are these pseudo monopolies all over the country and you need net neutrality in order to do that. I personally wouldn't care about net neutrality if there was more competition. But unfortunately we have this double whammy of sort of a pseudo monopoly and the government saying well now you can do whatever you want with your monopoly. Yeah I don't like that combination. I think one or the other has to give. You either have to have net neutrality with pseudo monopolies or you have to have more competition. And I would personally like to see the more competition solution because I think that would cause innovation. I want to see more. There are certain things that I don't ever look at. I don't care too. I mean we're kind of talking about politics but part of what I've been doing is not paying attention to the news at all. I see it as a complete waste of time. And now it comes back on you. If you don't pay attention to the news, people will try to take away the underlying freedoms of the internet, the ability for people to innovate. What I would have thought it was to have. But I would actually appreciate like not having to pay for that bandwidth or like saying okay can I get a $5 discount if you just like cut off CNN, Fox News and MSNBC whatever. I want the bill like a cable subscription should be the same way. I want to have that too. They still haven't offered that. They haven't because they have a pseudo monopoly. And really the problem is more along the lack of competition than neutrality necessarily. I think you just need more competition, more players. And especially with the internet you should be able to get a lot more out there. It's just that last mile with ISPs. I'd like to see more Google weather balloons or I don't know. There's a lot of other technologies that can get us that last mile. I'd like to see more of that explored. Unfortunately there's already entrenched players like cable companies or whatever that provide most of the internet access in this country. So it's a bit unfortunate. I'd like to see more fiber out there. I'd like to see more competition. Austin supposedly has Google fiber but it's definitely not in my neighborhood. So that sucks. But if they had it, I guarantee you there's no way AT&T or Time Warner cable, the two other main players around here would say, okay you only get Google and Facebook and direct TV. There's no way they can compete against Google fiber that would offer net neutrality. So I think the market can solve this. We got this weird double whammy of monopoly plus then removing net neutrality that basically makes it pretty terrible for consumers. All right, better to keep net neutrality. Tone vase. Yeah, well I don't have a side here because I understand the argument from both sides and the argument to remove net neutrality makes sense. Now it's unfortunate that you have these monopolies and they're going to favor each other. So the example Thomas that you gave was, well if one of the ISP providers owns direct TV then they're going to favor who they own over others. Right, well this is why there needs to be laws saying that they can't just blatantly favor and stop the other ones. Now I know laws is enforcement and that's going to be tricky. But I would love to hear your argument saying it's going to kill innovation. I don't understand how it will kill innovation so maybe you can clarify. Okay, it'll kill innovation in two ways. The first way we'll just talk about basic websites. YouTube is a website that serves videos. If I want to start YouTube to a competitor to YouTube, right now we can both send traffic at the same rate. In the future under a non net neutrality system, YouTube would pay for the fast lane. YouTube too would either have to raise a bunch of venture capital that they would spend to get into the fast lane to even get to those consumers or their videos would be served slower than YouTube's videos. You can't compete. So that's the basic website from an addition to that. There's the idea of new services like originally we had FTP, Gofer, UZnet, all these different services that were not just web, not just web browser, right? And there could be a rise of these services again, things like Torrance, which do sometimes server legitimate means. Other services that currently can just use the network. In the future they'd have to buy access to the fast lane in order to compete with anyone. So it's a huge barrier for innovation. It's similar to when radio went from a open medium that anyone could send up a radio station and it was for a hobbyist to a closed medium where the radio that we know now is a one way hit machine and that's all it does. And that would be the internet. It would be like the internet would become television. Well, on your first point, right? I mean, Google would pay more for that fast lane. It's not like they're going to get it for free, right? It's not like Google or the current system allows for competition. The new system wouldn't. Well, right. But the problem that the ISPs are saying is, well, wait a minute. Netflix is like 50% of our bandwidth, but we have to provide Netflix the same amount of speed as we have to provide my website, which is simply text on a page, right? So I shouldn't have that much bandwidth because I don't use that much bandwidth. And Netflix should be paying much more for that bandwidth. So yeah, for the consumer, like Jimmy said, for the consumer, it sucks because the ISPs are going to charge Netflix like three times more money. So that cost is going to have to go onto the consumer to pay for it. So in your case of competition to Google, yeah, a new video streaming platform to compete with Google, you're right. They are going to have slower speed, but they're going to be paying a lot less for that than Google will. Again, now if it's a fair competition, so I can definitely see it from both sides. Now how is this going to affect torrent? I don't know. Now in a way, there should be, if you are going to remove net neutrality, the law that removes net neutrality should also come with the consumer right to keep net neutrality, right? So you can pay for equal traffic for everything, right? As the consumer, or you can just pay less and let your ISP provider choose which websites you go to have more and less traffic, or you would pay to have equal traffic across everything. Now, there are ways to even it out, but I can definitely see it from the ISPs provider saying, damn, how come we got to, you know, how come we can't charge people that use more bandwidth, more money? I'm not sure that's the issue at all. Let's move on to Jeffrey Jones. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of great interesting conversation here. I mean, you can make the argument from both sides for different things like you guys have done. But for me, to me, in my opinion, it's a real slippery slope once you break net neutrality. Because once you break net neutrality, then all it takes is a couple of lobbyists and they can get whatever they want to do. Once you break it, there's like a threshold. If you, as soon as you break that, then you're just going to go downhill more and more and more and more. We have to keep, in my opinion, net neutrality at all costs. It is one of the most important things that allowed the internet itself to evolve into what it is to create the services that we have today. And to create the services that we can't even imagine yet tomorrow. It has to stay. So I definitely encourage people to like contact their senators and try to spread awareness. I mean, what we really have to do as well is, you know, with the rise of all the cryptocurrencies, we need to continue an even more so, donate to these open source projects or these privacy focus projects like Tor. We need to donate the hell out of Tor. We need to get that as secure as possible. And remember, to the ISPs, it really doesn't cost them much more. For example, to serve consumers different things. It's not the hardware and things that they have to equip to go from, for example, to have you go from like one megabit to two megabit and speed. It's virtually nothing. Okay, it's the same hardware. Doing the same thing. It's simple throttling. It doesn't cost them any more to serve you less. And so, you know, the whole idea of this is kind of ridiculous. We're not paying, you know, like per packets here. We're paying for a fixed amount of bandwidth. And so, it shouldn't matter what those packets are. They should be completely neutral. The ISP should not care what the hell I am doing with my communication medium, my main communication medium. And so, you know, there is this huge, as you guys mentioned, there's this huge monopoly over ISPs right now. And I'm really looking forward to technologies that can eventually break that, something, you know, things like mesh networks and even cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin can help to fuel some of these ideas about creating these new types of decentralized networks or that are least more decentralized than these ISPs. And it's really important that we get there. And I think that Bitcoin and its security and privacy-focused communities will create something like this, you know, whatever that looks like. I believe that that is being built today, a new version of the internet that is more privacy-focused and, you know, encrypted by default, is being worked on by several teams and several projects. And so, that's something that I really look forward to. Let me just get back in here. I know I always take the double-sided position on any issue, but only because the other side always, you know, here's one way. Look, what bothers me about the removal of net neutrality laws is that it has a very high likelihood of deteriorating your privacy, right? So that part bothers me, right? Like the outright law, like you remove net neutrality, there'll be a lot like the complete banning of certain IP addresses, like the complete, you know, no ban with certain sites, like that part bothers me. Like, I don't want that, right? So I actually, I want that. Because someone is the end of the free and open internet and that's what we're trying to stop here. That's what all these libertarians are like. Oh, you're adding new rules and you're going to let the government decide on the internet. Neutrality is not making a choice. Neutrality is letting the packets through. Once this goes away, you're right. There's going to be much more scrutiny, much more control. Right. Now, now, what I'm more clear is, so the removal of net neutrality scares me from the privacy end of things. But, but, I am sympathetic to the fact that if you're using more ban with, with certain projects, you should, it should cost you more money. So I, I do believe that competition should drive, you know, the more you, like Netflix should be paying more because they're using more data, right? Like, same thing as the consumer. If you, yes, you should have the ability to think Netflix, Netflix pays more at their end. But I don't think the consumer pays more for Netflix. Should they pay twice? I think is the issue here. Is Netflix the most fun? Netflix buys servers. But, but from the consumer end, I would like to have, you know, more options because like in my house right now, like I travel nine months out of the year. So it's kind of weird how I'm paying for my, you know, computer data, right? Because I can go three months without using, you know, without using a zero data in my house. Yeah, I, I, I'm paying a full bill because it's complicated to turn it on and off, right? So I would like to have more leeway as the consumer to pay for what I'm actually using. And sometimes I need to have a limited. It's unlikely that this will get you that. But let's move on to the exit question, exit question on December 7th. Will the FCC go through with their plan to kill net neutrality? Or will there be so much public outrage that they will change their mind? Jimmy song. I don't care and I don't want to know. I don't pay attention to the news and I don't want to get involved in a political fight. Thank you. This is classic when they, when they put them up against the wall, Jimmy will say, but I didn't care about politics. Tones. Uh, I think that I think there is a lot of public outrage. I think net neutrality is going to stay. Jeffrey Jones. I mean, it's crazy how far the US is already behind in bandwidth, you know, when you compare us to the rest of the world. I mean, what was the actual question, Thomas? Will they remove net neutrality? I really hope not. And as long as we, it's just like freedom, you know, net neutrality is just like freedom. If you're not vigilant, if you don't stay connected, if you don't stay aware, you will lose your freedoms one by one. And of course, we must remember the lesson of history. If you're not turned on to politics, politics will turn on you. I'm afraid. I disagree. Big lesson. I'm afraid they do remove net neutrality. I'm afraid we answer into an internet dark age. I think it's not a big deal. I think it's not a big deal. All right. We'll see you on the other side when there's no internet. No one can communicate and we won't be able to do anything then. But just like to ask everyone to give us a thumbs up and a share. If it's your first time here, we have 555 live viewers. We're moving on to issue two issue two. Tether hacked. Tether was hacked for more than 31 million of its digital tokens. And they have a solution. They're going to roll back the tether chain to get rid of the hacker. Is this the new solution for all cryptocurrencies? And how does this relate into our topic last week when Tom Vays was saying he worried about tether was uncertain of the number printed and the bank accounts. Other potential solutions. Was this just an attractant? I'm just talking about 10 every week. Go ahead Tom. Oh man. Yeah, it's amazing. It really reminded me of like the Dow situation where I talked shit about the Dow on this year show and then everyone called be an idiot and like a week later it gets hacked. But. All right. So rolling back at a tether chain. I mean, tether is a centralized token. Like there's there's no there's nothing wrong there. You want tether to be rolled back. I mean, this is why you have tether. Someone is holding dollars at a bank. And the whole reason for. They are answer to their terms of service that says we have the right not to redeem your tether is for this specific reason. Like they have the right not to redeem the tether of the hacker. So if it's easier for them technologically than then regulatory to just roll back the chain in order to not give the tether back to the hacker. That's exactly what they're going to do. Now when people need to realize that tether is a centralized coin. And I have a huge problem with tether now. I'm not going to I'm already getting like getting the huge fights over tether with people I used to like. And I'm in support with people I never liked. I'm not going to be on as far as tether. It's a really a funny situation. But I never cared about tether when it was 10 million 20 million 30 million. But now it's approaching one billion. And I know exactly how tether is going to end. And all these people have their heads in the sand. Because they think the government doesn't know that tether exists. But the government does know that tether exists. And the scam token that is there for you to use to get around us regulations and laws and other money laundering regulations. Now I love to I would love for everyone to get around money laundering laws because I think money laundering laws are the most atrocious laws in the world. Okay. So I would love for everyone to get around the money laundering laws. My problem is that people seem to be very, very comfortable getting around money laundering laws with a centralized coin. Which in my mind is one of the dumbest things you can do. So to me tether is a really, really dumb project. It's a project with people's heads in the sand because the government is going to come smack the hammer down. And they know exactly where the money is sitting. And that's me, you know, going against bidfinex and all of his research that says the money is not even there. Right. So I will assume that the money is there. And I think that if the money is there, it's probably worse. Because the government is going to show up and it's going to take the money. Okay. Because they're going to it's just tether is just so easy to bring down. And as far as bidfinex is concerned, the fact that bidfinex shows to take on this tether liability makes me question the entire management of bidfinex. So yes, I think bidfinex is growing too big. And as far as bidfinex and tether goes, I'd rather see them go down earlier than later because either way, they're going to go down. All right. I'm not note. I think I'm bringing it off hate mail. So I'll pass it on. All right, Jeffrey Jones should tether roll back the chain. Roll back the chain. You know, I don't know. We'd have to ask my talent on that. Really, I think he can give us his best best thoughts on that. But look, I haven't commented much on tether this week. I mean, I really, it's just not my area of expertise as far as heavy finance on Wall Street. That's of course, much more for tone and for those type of people. But you know, it is the fact remains that it is a small market cap relative to Bitcoin. And we'll likely continue to remain small relative to the Bitcoin, even as it grows to like a billion dollars. It's it's still going to grow. No, no, no, no, no. What is it? Can I challenge that for a second? Right because I deal with this argument on Twitter all the time. Right? So the current market cap of Bitcoin is $137 billion. Right? But realistically, how much of that do you think is actively traded on exchanges? It's, I mean, supposed to be most of it is supposed to be traded actively. Really? Because Satoshi holds, you know, I know it's supposed to be. Oh, you're talking about in Bitcoin, all in all of Bitcoin. Yeah. No, no, no. How much of that market cap of Bitcoin, how much of that market cap do you think is actively traded on exchanges? Sorry, sorry. So yeah. So according to, you know, sites like quite market cap and things, it's anywhere between a billion to, you know, 10 to 15 billion, depending on. Right. But the entire billion of tether is traded on exchanges. Right. Right. Right. Correct. So if we're going to say, OK, so out of 137 billion of Bitcoin market cap, let's say 10 billion of that is trading on an exchange. OK. Right. Across all the exchanges. OK. But tether is one billion almost, right? Right. So tether represents the potentially 10% of panic in Bitcoin. So imagine if 10% of Apple stock, all of a sudden, you know, had a problem. No, no, I understand. And no, I'm not saying that it won't indeed cause some type of correction. Well, no, I'm not saying it's going to cause a correction. Oh, I think a tether blow-up would be the greatest thing for Bitcoin ever. Oh, yeah. I think a tether blow-up would raise the price of Bitcoin by two to three X within a matter of weeks. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that was a lot of fun. I really have no problem with a tether blow-up because I think it's a major positive for Bitcoin. Yeah. And that was partly what I was going to say is, you know, we do need to go through something like this. But it's not in significant, right? Because you can't compare tether to Bitcoin's market cap. You have to compare tether to Bitcoin's market cap, actively traded. Right. Actively traded. Yeah. And that's fair. And I think I agree with that as well. I mean, it's true because that's how you can determine if, you know, what kind of correction you're going to face. And that's true. And it would definitely, in my opinion, cut some type of correction as people would get scared. But remember, this is a part of the growing pains of Bitcoin clashing with the traditional systems, right? This is part of the growing pains we're going to have to go through as the centralized, you know, KYC AML entities clashes up against this, you know, anonymous worldwide global decentralized asset. This is part of the stuff that's going to happen. We're growing to have to have this type of decision to be made. How do we want to bring in traditional fiat into the new system? Right. And so right now, you know, Tony, what's Tony, you called it really, you called it stupid and dumb, right? And it's like at the same time, look, there really wasn't much other choice. Right. If you want to bring in fiat into the system in a liquid way to provide liquidity to the market and two multiple exchanges and things like that. This was a way to do that. And, you know, they did my assuming the best that they could. So I think that this is something we're going to have this is a conversation. We're going to have to have a decision is going to have to be made. And whether that means, you know, Pether getting hacked again or, you know, the US coming down on tether, whatever it is, we're going to have to go through this because we are going to have to continue to transition old money into the new system. It has to go. And, you know, there is no mistake. The old sink, the old ship is sinking. Some there's got to be a way provided the market will demand a way to get their old money out. And so whether that's to tether or not, I'm not really worried. And I hope that we figured it out sooner than later. All right. Jimmy, song, your thoughts on tether. Well, so, so I did do an interview with Diffin X earlier this week with tone. And that was, that was one of the weirdest sort of things that I've gone through. I think tone and I have been talking since then. We're like, what did we get ourselves into? What is this thing? Because, you know, I honestly hadn't looked too much into it until until that interview. But the things that are really kind of throwing red flags for me are there are people defending Biffin X like it's their mom. You know, like there are people that better like Biffin X can do nothing wrong and everything that is being, you know, like criticized about them is like, you know, an attack on their mom. It's, it's, it's just kind of really weird to me that that's that sort of behavior is happening because I haven't really seen it really like that. Jimmy, let me ask you this. Do you think it's because like the traders are like really close with the exchange because like the exchange made them a lot of money. And so I don't know what it is, but, but like the level, we can, we can guess we can take our best guesses. There's a couple of conspiracy theories out there and they all make sense because nothing else does. Yeah, I, but they're defending Biffin X like it's their mom. It's just a company and it's an exchange. It's been hacked twice now or if you count the tether thing and yeah, I mean one of the other things that we, one of the other things that's really puzzling about this whole story is I looked at the address that got hacked. It's a three or four multi-sync. That means they set up for key for private keys and three of them have to unlock it in order for it to move. And this hacker found three of them. Now, it's this like it's possible. It's an external hacker that found all of this stuff and individually got three different keys or it's somebody internal that managed to get all of them or they just have like terrible security. Like any of those options, it's pretty bad. Like, whatever happened, if you, if you compromise a three or four, I'd have terrible op sec. The hacker is really good in which case they can do all kinds of things to you that or or you're, or you have like some mole in your organization. None of those things are good. So it tells me that this is, this is not a good situation and I'm very worried about, okay, if a hacker gets in and you know manages to compromise three or four keys. Yeah, something is like something smells really bad and I don't know what, what the where the story will lead or whatever. But I can't imagine this is the end of it. I know a lot of people like are criticizing big connects because like he's doing all this stuff and nobody knows who he is. You know, he's sort of saying stuff. He's but heard all that. I don't like just the behavior and all the evidence that I've seen something is wrong. I don't know what it is. And I doubt will know until like the full story comes out in the next. You know, I don't know how long but but something smells and some there's some red flags here and I you know my my gut instinct is to say. You know, let's let's watch this very, very closely. So I just want to jump back in here real quick, Jimmy. But as far as like the speculation over some of these traders, whether whale pool or whatever defending them. So I'll throw them out there. Right. So one theory out there saying that they that these guys either were handed or they bought up a lot of the equity because after that hack. Right. After the hack, there was this push to get these people to to convert the the IOU tokens into equity of the company. Right. Now the hack was for the second hack was for how much 72 million dollars. Right. This is the one like last year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was 72 million right. And obviously the moment you hacked you just like with Mount Gox, you freeze the US dollar amount so that the Bitcoin volatility going forward is no longer your concern. Right. You got hack for 72 million. You owe people 72 million in US dollar equivalent. Right. I mean, that's just how these things are. And according to again, flibber that was on our show that other people are trying to substantiate different access making one million dollars a day. Well, if you're making one million dollars a day and you got hack for 72 million within three months, you'll be able to pay everybody back. So why in the world are they converting people to equity. Right. So it's just like it's just like raises questions on top of that. And there's questions on top of questions, right. The other thing that someone threw at me the other day was, well, all of these high end traders, they're all they're all backing bitfinex because of the tether situation and they have all of these means to get around. Again, you know, the transfer of money with the tether token. And again, I'm very sympathetic. I would love nothing more than to destroy, you know, the AML KYC laws and get around them. I just think that trusting tether to get you around them is one of the dumbest things you can do because it's a centralized token. I think this goes well into the exit question, exit question, the price of tether will remain at $1 coin or fall to zero Jeffrey Jones. We've seen it go below and over. So it'll definitely fall to zero with the US government comes in. So I love to see what happens. For now, it shall remain a dollar, I guess. Jimmy song. I can't I mean, it's trading at like 99 cents right now. I can't see it ever going below like like five cents, for example, there's always somebody that'll sort of take on dead and hope that some bankruptcy proceeding will get them some money. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. Again, this is a story that has a funky smell. We're going to track it down and figure out what's going on. And I really have no idea what I've gotten myself into. I'm sure there are lots of people that are nodding, you know, like that are watching the show right now. But I do want to see what's going on, you know, like, I don't know. I have no idea. So, right, I mean, I can make an argument that it can go both ways, right. So obviously, I feel because I'm not a trader. I feel that this token should certainly be worth well below $1 even today. But if tether never increased the supply of tether and they left it at 10 million, that was original, maybe they only increased it like a hundred. There could be such a huge demand for tether because this liability has been outsourced to all of the anonymous exchanges. So if there isn't enough tether to go around these exchanges as more and more people are dying to get into trading, they could be trading this tether at a huge premium because there is no other way for somebody on Polonia extra bit tracks to trade versus something resembling a US dollar. So the thinking both can swing both ways, but the moment the hammer comes down and that money in a bank is in jeopardy or bid for next comes up with real proof that the money's not there, then that thing will sink up by like 50% in a matter of hours and people will not have the time to get out. Moving on to issue three Bitcoin cash Bitcoin cash prices have gone insane after the previous pump pump the price of Bitcoin cash to $1200 a coin. It's now almost $2400 a coin, retreating back to $1,700 a coin. I believe at this time. The price of Bitcoin cash has really been all over the place with Falcvin's the new elected president of B cash saying that Bitcoin cash would be replacing Bitcoin and would be the new Bitcoin. Jeffrey Jones is Bitcoin cash a pump or should we all welcome our new B cash overlords. Oh man, I think a lot of us at the WCN have definitely made our opinions known about B cash and our thoughts about it. I'll just say that a lot of these CEOs like Rick, how they're tweeting out, how they're sending these transactions for low fees and things like that. It's like it's like classic Bitcoin again. Look, you're clearly trying to bring back a Bitcoin that isn't right. A Bitcoin that the market doesn't demand a Bitcoin that is run completely centralized by Roger and friends like it's just I just can't understand it. I won't speak much more about it other than you know, it's clearly a monopoly of a coin. It's clearly completely centralized and you know, look, I'm all for experimentation. So, you know, if you guys think that that's what you guys want a fascist coin, you know, a corporate type of coin sweet, you know, definitely go ahead and go for it. It's just completely strange to me though how it continues and how the insanity gets gets covered up like for example, for the last 48 hours, you know, transactions were more expensive on Bitcoin cash than Bitcoin. And of course, you'll never hear any CEOs who are pushing Bitcoin and cash say anything like that or speak up about that at all. You know, they'll just continue to tell you that Bitcoin and cash is better than Bitcoin in every way and it's the true original Satoshi's vision. And I mean, you know, anytime somebody says original vision in your face, I mean, they might as well be pushing religion because you know, Bitcoin hasn't been Satoshi's original vision in years, not since mining pools, not since A6, not since on and on and on. So, you know, Satoshi left the project to the community. It's that simple. We don't want Satoshi's vision. Satoshi doesn't want Satoshi's vision people. That's why he left and that's why he left it to us. It's up to us, the community. And I think we're doing a pretty amazing job with Bitcoin at 8,000 and the continuing optimizations of core, you know, Jimmy tweeted out a great Thanksgiving tweet like about how, look, we're thankful for core and you know, we're thankful for keeping our money safe. Like this is an amazing, amazing, amazing time to be alive to be in the era of Bitcoin. So yeah, that's about it. Jimmy Song, are we violating Satoshi's vision? Were we promised on chain scaling? I mean, I don't care that much about on scale scaling. I mean, I did a show with some guys the other day and I talked about the role of sound money and store of value and all that stuff and you can sort of get my take on it there with respect to the economics of it. But I will say that Bitcoin cash is very much useful for, you know, corporations because they take up most of the block size, all right, block space already on Bitcoin. So if they, if they move over to Bitcoin cash, I don't know if that would necessarily be a bad thing, right? Like if they want to push for Bitcoin cash and you know, utilize the block space that they have, that's great. The thing is it's the blockchain on Bitcoin cash is also a public resource and I've shown this before there's there's a transaction way back when when somebody made a but bear multi-sig like huge transaction that essentially encoded the literal Satoshi white paper into the Bitcoin blockchain. And they paid like no fees on any of it and you can you can still go look at it. It's on Bitcoin.stackexchange.com. I answered this question. I wrote a, I made a little Python script that you can run. If you have the Bitcoin blockchain and you run my script, you will get the Satoshi white paper dot PDF like on your machine. You can go read it whatever like that. That's it was abused, right? So utilizing the block space in that way, a public resource in that way should cost you something and and and you know if you have eight megabytes and it's like it costs like almost nothing to transact and well, you know, be careful what you wish for because people will be utilized like people will be utilizing it that way too. I remember this story saying saying that we've changed from Satoshi's vision and that block space is no longer free. So we've already made changes. Yeah, to some degree, I want to give this example because there was a, I believe I forget which country it might have been Saudi Arabia or something and there was this. Prince or something that wanted to sort of give bread to all the citizens and and because he wanted to do that, he made the bread very cheap, right? And you know, people have to stand in line to go get it and was like, you know, some very small mountain per bread loaf. And you know, everyone could go buy bread. That was fine except then people started abusing it. People would buy like five things of bread and then go feed their horses with it or their you know or their animals with it. And that's kind of what's going to happen with the blocks blockchain on Bitcoin cash with the incentives that are currently in place is that if you if you just sort of let it be and like keep it sort of artificially cheap like they kind of are doing by increasing the block size. Well, you know, people are going to use it for other uses and you might not necessarily agree with their use and it's not going to necessarily keep it constantly cheap, right? Like, you know, when we get to like suppose, suppose that they do well and you know, you you're filling up almost every block with a megabytes of transactions. Well, at that point, they're going to be like, well, we have to fulfill the original vision or whatever. Let's increase it to 32 and let's increase it to a gigabyte or whatever. And they're going to keep doing it so that the fee stays low. That's sort of like an artificial lowering of the fee, right? This is not the market working. It's sort of like by governance or whatever they're changing the price by sort of increasing the supply artificially. Well, then you know, people are going to start abusing it. That's that's just how the market works is that if you artificially lower the price, well, it's it's going to be utilized for things that you may not necessarily want. And at that point, then you need even more governance to say, well, you're not allowed to use it. Use the bread to go feed animals, you or you know, like use it as couch cushion or something like whatever. Like you have to use it for this. You can't put controls on the free bread. Right. Yeah. Right. So you're going to it's going to that that path. I think leads to more and more governance. Like like when you when you utilize governance to solve a problem, you're going to rely on governance to solve more problems in the future as well. And that that's the road that I see Bitcoin cash going down a little bit. And what we'll see. I don't know. Maybe maybe they just sort of stop at a certain point. But that's something that you have to really think very hard about before sort of saying, OK, well, we're going to solve, you know, we're just going to hard fork whenever we need to. And these are the things that these are the principles. We're going to always going to have low fees. Well, be very careful what you wish for. There are always unintended consequences, negative externalities, things that economists look at very, very closely with respect to this stuff. Yeah. And you know, I just want to add that to that point, I mean, like what you maybe just think about about Bitcoin cash and these things who are just want to just have low fees forever. And think that that's OK. I mean, we can just literally let them bury themselves under their own weight because if that actually got successful, right. Then then we would see it actually at action. We would actually see them struggle to keep up. And then we'd see their blockchain get full. And then we'd see it crash and then we'd see all these things happen to it. All the things that we actually predicted would happen. It's interesting. You know, we want them to just go ahead and pursue their project and the way they wanted to. But like you said, I mean, you just painted a picture for me in my head about them getting if they ever did get successful, they would be crushed under their own weight. Tonve is the article mentioned South Korea. Why is South Korea buying B cash? I'm an outcomes razor guy. The most obvious thing is because people like Roger have a big following in South Korea. And like South Korea in Japan is like their market. And it's so they're listening to the wrong people that are selling them B cash telling them that it's the next Bitcoin. I want to take Jimmy's analogy a little bit further, right. And I'm going to say that yeah, fine. So they're making cheaper transactions right now. No one is really using their blockchain. Right. So if all of Bitcoin's transactions, all of a sudden start happening on B cash. And their 8 megabyte blocks will also be kind of getting full. Okay. So what happens then, right, because remember, this was very clear from the scaling Bitcoin conference when I asked what a little D and the other guy on stage over there. What the hell were they? It was a horizon. And what's the other one on the telephone network scaling guy. And just stone. Is it interesting? It might be interesting. Right. When I asked them, I'm like, yes, so what happens when I when the block started getting full at eight megabytes, 32 megabytes. And then I'm like, how do I run my node? And I go, you're not going to run a node. You're just going to use SPV, right. So with every increase in the block size. They're, they're, you know, centralizing the nodes and they're centralizing the miners. So if they continue to do what Jimmy is saying. And it's like, oh, there's going to increase it every time. There is this huge, you know, like right now, the incentive to spam the Bitcoin blockchain is to pump your shit coin and make fun of Bitcoin, how it's not able to scale. But if a B cash is, you know, if the flipping happens to be cash, which it won't spamming that block size becomes a much more like the various effort because spamming that blockchain actually decentralizes the entire network. So it creates this incentive from government to spam the big blockers in order to, you know, drop guys like me from running his own node to continue to centralize the system into like Google servers, right. So it becomes completely centralized. And so what's the, so let's say now let's do that. Let's say these big blockers of B cash realize, oh my God, this is a problem. We're being spammed by governments. And now we have to hard fork again. So what do you think is going to happen if they, I don't know what's the maximum now is it eight or 32 megabytes. I think the maximum off of their hard fork is 32 correct Jimmy. Yeah, I actually don't remember. Okay, so let's assume there, let's assume their maximum is 32. I believe their maximum is 32 is just that the miners super, super promised they weren't going to be mining shit greater than eight megabytes. So let's assume is 32. Let's assume those blocks are getting full from government spam. Now the B cash centralized authority with their CEO have to make a decision. Are we going to hard fork again. So guess what's going to happen if they try to hard fork again. There's going to be another unfortunately, a big cash classic is already taken. So there's going to be another big cash classic classic right they're going to have to hard fork again. They're going to have their own arguments within themselves on which side of the hard fork to go like there are there. So if you continue the analogy further as far as them sticking to the old vision of Satoshi, why aren't they using the old vision of the internet, which was a well and dial up right so I didn't create that analogy but I heard it and it's perfect right fine. They stick with the original you know vision of the internet and run a dial up server right like that's pretty much what they're doing like they're not adjusting with the times and they have nobody competent there to do anything right. The two developers that talked about this they're not even a B cash developers there Bitcoin unlimited developers I didn't even know that project was still freaking around. But but that's who they're developing for so anyway it's complete nonsense and you know if people want to speculate and pump and dump it. You know be my guest I'm so happy I sold all mine I never look back. All right Jimmy song you have to leave any thoughts on the dragon mint miner before you go. I'm trying to get an interview with BTC Jack he did indicate that he's interested but he's very busy so I don't know when that's going to happen but that'll also be a nice way to say that's my story of the week as well. All right bye everybody. All right by Jimmy and let's go to the exit question B cash technical analysis says it might go up higher but I'm asking you Jeffrey Jones next week B cash higher lower does the pump continue. It's a pump and dump I mean you know do I'll get pumped tell you they get pumped it's they're going to be it's going to continue remember all the volume is in fact coming from South Korea from pretty much a single exchange called the thumb you can look this up this is black and white. Anybody can see this and look Roger is going to continue to spread lies about Bitcoin of be a Bitcoin cash and that's fine you guys can do whatever you want to do I mean this is a free world I mean have fun with it meanwhile you know Bitcoin will be sitting on top there at over a thousand continuing to optimize continuing to develop continuing to build out things like lightning network on top of segwitch nor signatures with the fiber network from Mac Rello on and on and on and yeah good luck. Tonways higher lower I don't know I mean the technical say higher so I but like I said it's a total pump and dump if people really want to get to the bottom of it start digging into the South Korean exchange the way the way bitfinex this digging into bitfinex right start digging find out who their investors are. I don't know I mean Aaron is a good reporter I know that he talk about the investors of the exchange I mean use you start taking out the cockroaches you probably find out that it's bit main and you know the obvious players are somehow involved in it I wouldn't be surprised at all also remember there's so much was trading in those those exchanges with with all the discounts and stuff like that it's ridiculous it's ridiculous. I was trading never really like I never really that that's never been my stick to fight over like I'm not a fan of like the high frequency trading stuff but I don't even care of computers are trading I don't even care of computers are trading with each other right as long as they are I hate spoof orders so spoof orders need to a be curtail that it's very very simple to curtail them you put in a minor fee to cancel your order I don't know if you can do that. I feed that you know an average user won't feel and you don't let any but micro remove an order right like you make an order stay there for two seconds and you charge them you know a tiny fee to cancel or modify the order and you're done a lot of like you you can completely eliminate bullshit trading now if people on the exchange want to trade between each other back and forth. I mean okay that's fine I mean regulation is supposed to stop that but you know what so what I mean I was calling the Chinese volume bullshit for years years until finally got removed and maybe if they didn't do all that bullshit maybe there are exchanges wouldn't be removed today right like maybe if the Chinese exchanges stood up against bullshit I see us maybe they wouldn't get caught in the net right so fake volume trading was Satoshi's original vision. Seriously I mean China that was amazing how well China China crack down on that obviously they did in a very draconian way but they did do it and people like tone and the WCN were citing that for months and months you know before they finally crack down on and the same thing with with the Korean South Korean exchanges it's all it's it's being zero fees it's being discounted for zero fees and the volume is just not real. Right now people are in love with tether they're using tether they're using their warning them what's going to happen with that there no one is listening and then the hammer is going to come down tether is to be employed and it won't play me. There's a little prediction of the future right there let's move on to issue for dragon mint this Bitcoin developers about to take on the mining hardware industry as Jimmy song mentioned BTC track the most important thing is that the most pseudo anonymous core contributor is making a move into the Bitcoin hardware industry the developer who's made contributions to the Bitcoin core repository has started a new company hay long mining which is producing the dragon mint 16 t its name references the dragons den an infamous private chat channel on the Bitcoin core community track slack and is said to be equipped with newly designed chips and can produce 16 tera hashes a second perhaps providing competition saying that they are 30% more energy efficient than bit mains ant miner s nine Jeffrey Jones will the dragon mint break the Bitcoin mining monopoly and challenge bit main man I really really really hope so I mean look BTC track is an anonymous you know member of the Bitcoin community that has done amazing and he has earned all the respect you know every ounce of respect for that guy has been hard earned over the years been here since the big almost the damn near beginning you know just I just have so much respect for that person whoever he or she may be right and I'm really really just thankful that they're a part of this community doing this they're again showing their intelligence and you know they're willingness to help this community by coming up with this technology that will in fact challenge bit main so this is just a great I mean they're doing it for their building miners that are competitive they have the performance and they are cheaper than bit main and so I just hope this this issues in a whole new era and they're even talking about possibly open source open sourcing their designs so that other manufacturers come in and join the fun like you know they're they're they're not concerned about profit you know they're concerned about Bitcoin they're concerned about decentralization and this is really really important you know because obviously bit main could be very last right they want centralization they want control the ghan wants it to be ghan coin and now he's got ghan coin with Bitcoin cash right and all of his lovely asick boost and and believe that comes along with it but look this we really really really needed competition and for those of us long time Bitcoin people long time Bitcoin community members we knew it was coming we knew sooner or later it was going to come there a bit main can't have all this profit forever and ever doesn't it doesn't live in a vacuum Bitcoin is not in a vacuum people will figure this out you know we're going to have all of these amazing manufacturers AMD Intel coming into the place and so it's really going to be it's really going to be amazing and I'm really excited for it and you know to have somebody like BDC drag at the helm of this I mean I I don't think we could we could ask for much more and this is this could be really the beginning of of the decentralization of Bitcoin mining you know because we it's going to sway right go back and forth we were at the far end of the decentralization right the the the spectrum that we went up to the peak of centralization I'd say where we are now and now we're going to start coming back down this is just just just simple economics this is how it works more and more people will enter this space and it's going to be very very profitable for these people entering this early especially before Wall Street Wall Street is just now getting in you know then after that you got mainstream that in 2019 and later so this is this is the time to get in this is it couldn't be timed more perfectly and I'm excited all right point of fact we have had BTC track on some early world crypto network shows and we thank him for that let's go on to tone vase your thoughts on this new mining operation. Everything for every word text that was on wait you know you guys yeah but it's breaking up it's like a constant it's like a constant robot voice we are having a robot voice issue tone or not sure why so again tone test 123. Yes switch mics it's I don't know if it's the mic but it's so let me let's go to my chat I'm going to go and open up the chat this is a good time remind everyone to give us a thumbs up in a share we've got 845 live viewers I'd like to see that go over by a thousand this is a good chance for everyone to subscribe if you haven't subscribed down below I know what else is going on Jeff did you have any thanks giving dinner yesterday any turkey. I did in fact I think we could we Bitcoin was definitely a topic and I didn't have to bring it up but I'll get the talk Bitcoin let's go to tone house. So it's my so it was like a mouse click right I like my camera is it better now it's better not going to go so you said you said what more takes what saying I think you say or not so so well no I agree with you assuming that everything they say is true now I'm going to be skeptical here right because at the moment this is you know promises know that from the butterfly left right so let's see if they can if this actually gets delivered right I want to see these miners show up. I want to see these miners working and I want to see someone like Gregory Maxwell taking a look at the code right like what he did with the ant liner now we did have a tweet from Adam back where he said he saw one run he tested it he looked under the hood it sounds pretty legit but that is just one tweet so that's actually very very helpful right because I've already seen a couple of tweets people all like well you know like we're we're not sure he can pull it off now I am very curious. I how they were able to do that operation that's a lot of research and development right it is different to to build one versus building a thousand they could have problems at scale so so I'm going to be a little bit skeptical here like let's just say I am not going to prepaid for one of these I will wait I mean I prepaid for my Bitcoin watch because I trusted the developer the watch I was going to say we could get you to trade the watch for a miner right so I I mean if this thing delivers and this thing works as promised that I'll go ahead and buy one because I don't want to upgrade my avalan minor unless avalan comes up with something equivalent so I will hold our reservations until this thing is actually you know in people's hands and because we've all they'll I like I didn't actually deal with mining issues but everybody around me has what would I join this space so so that that's all I'm going to say because I'm not technically qualified to review the miner so I will wait until other people have and it's actually being checked out. All right exit question a bigger problem Bitcoin mining centralization or Bitcoin scaling Jeffrey Jones. Well it's mining centralization now that we got segwit already implemented and a huge amount of development around lightning and side channels on the way so I'm really really looking forward to both those technologies in 2018 really coming to fruition really start to spread around the ecosystem so I guess that would be my centralization right now and again I don't think that's a problem I never did think it thought it was too much of a problem because I did believe that eventually it would have been flow you know Bitcoin will become valuable enough for somebody else to get into the game it's really that simple if Bitcoin continues to be more valuable more more miners will enter the game. Tony Vase well neither right like currently neither is a problem because if if we went to a bigger block like if B cash would have won then both of them are a problem right because the scaling is being done in backwards as way that would lead to more minor centralization right like the path that we are on now with without hard working to a bigger block I wasn't worried about either like I'm not worried about scaling because we have smart people working on later too and because we're not going to a bigger block mining centralization doesn't worry so neither one has been a worry of mine in the last three months after all this first. Jeffrey Jones I already went to you. I already went to you. Come again we'll go on to predictions or story of the week Jeffrey Jones you ready with a prediction or story of the week oh story of the week story of the week. Man just hilarious how banlowski I guess joined the ripple board I mean tones you guys really got check out tones thread on Twitter about this tweet because like after he tweeted just a million hilarious freaking tweets ensued or a million replies to that tweet maybe tone can give it to you to put it in the show notes but that was just a little bit of hilarity that the guy who tried to freaking you know make Bitcoin like ripple decided to join ripple. I mean I guess it's to be expected but I'm not surprised but at the same time it's just so ironic and so hilarious. All right tone phase story of the week or comment on I mean that's a really good story of the week now the most interesting thing that I found for that because as I was typing it up as I was typing that tweet up and thank God Twitter now gives me 280 characters but. As I was typing it up I'm like hmm should I mention that banlowski created the bit license and I'm like now people should know who he is and I was amazed at the number of people that did not know who banlowski is and this like just that's probably because they didn't call him by his title super Nintendo. And and it just goes to show you like sometimes we don't realize how long it's been in the space and we kind of like I don't look up to the guys that were in it before me anymore because I I think my understanding of the space they've all they've all become traders and support an horrible outcomes and right right. Yeah, I like like pretty much like there's like two people left in the entire like other than the core developers right like removing the core developers there's like two people left that haven't gone off the depend and it's like trace mayor and a trace of the novelist right. I can't. And I'd agree with that those are both really good. I mean actually Charlie shredder stayed at Charlie shredder stayed pretty good he did curve there a little bit. Yeah, he's but his back I think he's back for like six months and then and then he tries to become two time again and then we talk him out of it. But but no like and trace come close like I'm sure this is on the edge here so it's like we're almost I'm always down like trace mayor here right. But we're now getting to a point where yeah, you know what Roger here has been in the in the crypto space two years before me but at which point does that become negligible right like like I've been in I'm you know come a day where I've been in the space for 10. Thomas you've been here longer than me and you know somebody like Roger Viers been here two years longer than us. Okay, so I've been here 10 years he's been here 12 years. Is there any material difference there right so there's still the difference of having a billion dollars. Oh there's financial. We're starting on that one but right there will always be a big financial difference right but as far as like your stature your your. You know your credibility in the space that starts to go away and I got to realize how much longer I've now been in the space than that with sure the of the people that are around so yeah so that was kind of fascinating I guess I'll just do it pricing update I know a lot of people want that even though that much has been happening with the price. Let me see here I guess my. It's going sideways for a minute now Tom well that's what I said right like what we were doing this show last week and the question was what Bitcoin be higher or lower I said about the same. And you guys laughed at people say in that but that's what I expected I mean last week was what they so today is 24 so you take away seven we're going to the 17. Yeah so we were like just under 8000 and now we're you know just an early this morning we were like exactly the same price right we were on this is the daily chart this morning we were below 8000 so we were pretty much exactly the same this morning now we're a little bit higher so that was my view we were going to like stabilize here for a little bit but I think we're going to bust out I think any day now either tomorrow or the day after. I think Bitcoin is due for a little bit of a bump I mean Bitcoin stagnated for a couple of days old coins are pumping I hear a man arrows pumping I be cash is pumping again be gold is pumping the only one I'm happy about pumping because I got to figure out how to get pull line out. A Syrian he knew all time high stone a theory of. So all these old coins and I don't think that's going to last I think Bitcoin is getting ready to bust out maybe making a push for nine maybe nine and a half and I think some of those profits from the old coins are going to about to go back into Bitcoin so yes I think Bitcoin is getting ready for a jump up the short term charts yeah I mean this is not going to be a sustained high because we're going to be able to get a little bit higher. Because we spend way too much time for people to decide whether they want to enter exit and I would you know I think a breakout is imminent and we go higher yeah that's pretty much it I mean I have a resistance line here and the hourly chart from the last nine that we got the moment we get back up of this the moment we get over this line which currently sits around you know. 84 25 then it should be another boost higher so yeah so I'm bullish here and you know the mempool everything it comes down to like seven mags it fills up again to like 11 or 12 so yeah let's see hopefully my thing will come sooner the later and more people should convert to segwood including myself. Alright and while I'd like to go on another die tribe and complain about net neutrality some more I know about half of your libertarian don't care about net neutrality the other half don't know anything about technology but maybe that's the same half but let's just focus on what we're thankful for and I'm thankful for Bitcoin and I'm thankful for cryptocurrency and I'm thankful for all the friends that I met on my European trip it's pretty strange I don't know if you guys have had this yet but. When you go places now after you've done all these videos people seem to know you already and they come up to you and they're like oh I know who you are and it's the strangest thing from our perspective because we do these little shows in our bedrooms we do them each week and we just try to make them better each one after the last one. But people really like them they like listening to them they're listening to them in their showers on their commutes on their bicycles and their cars on the airplanes and on our new audio podcasts on the world crypto network. And just like to remind everyone to subscribe to that we've got a friend of ours in the chat is working on doing it every day converting but over we're getting a lot more listens and listening is great because you can clean up the house and do other things while you're doing it although I still think YouTube's the best so everyone should subscribe down below and just thankful for everybody I just want to do a positive note and give us a thumbs up in a share and we're about out of time we had a great time doing the show today a little black Friday. Special after Thanksgiving show keep you guys away from the shopping off the Amazon dot com for a little while and of course if you'd like to donate to support the show we've got a QR code right here for Bitcoin donations and we've got a Patreon link down below and you could always support us with the super chat or by retweeting or sharing or putting in a comment all these things are great ways of supporting the show. So thank you so much for watching will be back again this weekend with Jeffrey Jones of the Bitcoin news show on Sunday and then we'll be back with today and Bitcoin show next week hopefully returning to a regular time and a regular lineup now that I'm back in California so thanks so much for dealing with while we were in a European trip and until next time bye bye.