The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest satosis, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Gabriel D. Vine from Future Rant. Good morning, bitcoins! I've heard that before. Jimmy Song, Bitcoin developer. Everybody, good to be here. Tony Vays from Liberty Life Trail. Hey everyone, literally coming to you from the trail. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one. Issue one, UASF. BIP 148 is back in the news again. The number of nodes supporting the so-called user-activated soft fork is growing and provided minor support. The Segwit supporting chain would be launched on August 1. The problem is, no one can tell which chain will win. Leaving miners puzzled. Kyle Torpe, frequent panelist on the Bitcoin Group, has proposed a solution. Perhaps a futures market could be created that would allow miners to gauge the amount of public support for a user-activated soft fork by asking users to truly put their money where their mouths are. Gabriel Devon, your thoughts on the UASF and Mr. Torpe's proposed solution. I thought this was a really smart article, actually. He might have sidesteped a few of the risks that I'd love to hear Jimmy talk about on his turn. But I will say that it's a very convincing argument and a resonating argument philosophically to call upon the market via futures trading in order to give market participants Bitcoin holders, Bitcoin users some information, valued skin in the game information about the which side of the fork, of the soft fork, is going to be more valued in which one will take over. To be honest, I find the activation scheme and technological aspects of BIP 148 incredibly challenging to understand. I generally am able to follow things pretty well and I've just really found the whole soft fork activation mechanism and also not just the sort of what's inside of BIP 148 and the code and stuff, not only that am I finding challenging to understand, but all the implications for miners and other actors in the ecosystem. I'd really love to hear some thoughts from you guys on that. I love Kyle's idea that utilizing futures markets is actually an integral part of the Bitcoin, if you might want to call it governance. I don't like to use that word, but information finding, let's put it that way. The way that information travels in Bitcoin is dependent on many factors, of course, everything from forums and chat and medium articles to conferences and futures markets is another valued resource for information that is because it has skin in the game. In other words, because people need to put their money behind their trades on a futures market in order to predict the future value of a token, it gives you a special type of information that you don't get from straight up rhetoric. I really love that aspect of the article. Maybe instead of governance, we could call it scaffolding. It's not quite a building, but it's not quite a ladder, something in between there. You're right. The details of BIP 148 are very hard to understand, but fortunately, we've got Jimmy Song here to explain it to us. If I understand it, it's because he explained to me. Jimmy Song, your thoughts. Yeah. As far as a futures market, that would be amazing, especially one that is very liquid. I think that could be the proxy for deciding which four people would prefer to be on. I think it hits the core of what we want Bitcoin to be, both sides, everybody. They want the market to decide, and not developers, not miners, or loud people on Twitter. We want the market to decide these things. We'd have a futures market where you can trade these things, and then we'd have that information, and we wouldn't split it off. Unfortunately, the two problems I see are liquidity. That can be very tough to come by, because everyone needs to participate. I talked about this with you a couple days ago. If you have a niche market, it's very easily manipulated. If you remember Trump and Brexit, those were not very liquid futures markets. What ended up happening was that they were manipulated in large part, because people like Nate Silver were using that data to do his predictions. Even more so, if there's actual fork or not sort of thing going on, that tends to be a big problem with that. As far as like actual BIP 148 activation, it's essentially a soft fork that orphans blocks, that don't signal for a second. I wrote an article earlier this week that goes through that pretty thoroughly. I think what Kyle is saying is, here you go. I don't know if it's necessarily something that we can do in time for something like this. It is liquid. I would love to see that. It's kind of this weird thing, right? Even if the futures market shows that one branch has very little support compared to the other, it's entirely possible that a small minority may go and do the soft fork anyway, like it or do whatever. That can be kind of a big problem. I did encourage me to go and look at some other systems of governance that might work. Decred has a very interesting proof of state voting system where you have to pay to vote. Maybe at some point in the future Bitcoin may need to incorporate something like that in order to make scenarios like this less likely. I can't wait for that because then he who has the most money has the most votes. That solves everything. As a follow-up, would you suggest people invest in the futures market or buy minors? How can they support the UASF? It really depends. If you don't want a fork to happen at all, or if you think the futures market is going to be liquid enough, then go on the market and sell your UASF 148 coins. Who knows? You could buy minors and that will help once UASF starts because then you will have contributed hash power, which finds blocks. Minors have the most skin in the game until there is a permanent fork. Both are reasonable and one occurs before the other. That is something to obviously weigh as you decide on what to do with this very large issue. Maybe a little of column B. Perhaps another Barry Silver comes along with ETH Classic and decides he is going to fund both sides of the market and create the thing. Also I would like to thank our 173 live viewers and just ask everyone to give us a thumbs up and a share so that more people will find out about this show. Thanks so much for joining us in the chat room and in the comments after the show. Now, Tony Vays, your thoughts about the UASF and the market-based solution. I am glad you commented on Jimmy's statement that if there is money assigned to voting, that the one with the most money will get the most votes, and then we might have the Roger Veer coin by now. I am glad that is not happening. Also I really like Jimmy's comment of the loud people on Twitter and this is my very first official endorsement of the user activated software and probably starting later tonight I am about to start being allowed mouth on Twitter in support of the user activated software because we don't really have a choice. The way BIP 148 is being put into the system, you have no choice but to support it, especially if you believe in the foundation of BIP coin over the being of this censorship-resistant value transfer and if you even thought that mining was to centralize in China, this is for you, the user activated software because for you. There are things that I am starting to do. I am going to start making videos like I said on my podcast. I have cancelled my summer travels because the places I was going to go to were going to have questionable internet in order to properly secure my BIP coin in order to properly prepare for the user activated software and to support the success of the user activated software. So just came in the mail today is my treasurer because like an idiot, I haven't had one yet. The ledger is actually also in the mail. Thomas is shaking his head. You and I have had this. It has been treasurer, you guys hang out like your pals. Even I have one of those. Come on really. They sent it to me too. Treasurer sent Matt Bitt coins at Treasurer. God bless him. Thank you. No, no, it is hilarious. I am friends. The former, she recently stepped down as the treasurer CEO. Back when she was the treasurer CEO, she literally like, well like been to my house. She's been to my apartment. A lot like we've hung out. I've known her for years. And you're right. This is my very first treasurer, the ledger Nana. You were waiting till you could get a theory on the treasurer. Yeah, exactly. That was waiting for you. Here's the one that's going to blow your mind. I have a minor in the mail. There goes your ability to watch movies without allowed fans and good luck with that. No, no, no, the minor is staying in the woods. Yeah, that's where you should just leave it anyway. Leave it in the box. It's safer than that. No, no, no, no, no, because like once, and I'm going to explain like what people can do to support BIP 148 and like, you know, getting segwood into the system. And one of them is mining on the user activated software side as of August 1st. No, I also have to keep the minor up here because like 10 degrees cooler out here, 10, 20 degrees colder here than in New York right now. So yeah, this is definitely where it belongs because of the heat factor. And you're right. I actually do want to have some peace and quiet in my apartment sometimes. But yeah, so it's going to happen. And the best you can do is to prepare for it. You have to secure your Bitcoin. And if you really want to support, you need to have your own notes. You need to only accept segwood compatible blocks and bitcoins. And if you really, really want to help by a minor. And I will on my channel, I'll talk about where I got the minor and stuff like that. Though Jimmy helped me out with that one. So thank you, Jimmy. And yeah, so I'm about to start learning how to mind for the first time in my life. I mean, wow, like I'm learning. So this is great. So the article was pretty good. Let me get back to the article here. I don't think that exchanges having a futures market is all that necessary. We just need exchanges to commit to having to be ready for BIP 148. As long as the exchanges are ready for BIP 148. And while it's already for BIP 148, that's all we really need. I mean, because you can't really trust these futures markets. I mean, look at the Trump election. Look at any of them, right? Look at the Brexit. You can't trust them because nobody knows. Nobody knows what's going to happen. And yeah, but as long as there's two coins, I mean, we're probably going to get into this. I know I'm getting into it on my podcast, like all the consequences of what happens on August 2nd. I mean, it's going to be huge. The legacy chain, it's going to be obvious to everyone. The legacy chain cannot survive. The legacy chain would get absorbed by the softwork chain. So the legacy chain is going to have to fork the biggest hard fork. The biggest question is, I mean, we all know who's going to be driving the hard fork. It's going to be the big blockers, Gihon and Roger. The question is, is Garzick and Block going to join them? And speaking of Garzick and Block, I'm actually kind of pissed at Paul Stortz right now. But I don't know if we're going to get into that one. But anyway, side note. Yeah, so Paul, not happy with you at the moment. So back to, I'm losing friends in the space left and right. I don't even want to make friends anymore at this point. Where was I going with this? Yeah. So the legacy chain is going to hard fork. But I want to see the infighting between block and Bitcoin unlimited. As to how to hard fork the legacy chain. Are they going to hard fork with segwit or without segwit? Are they going to hard fork with two megabytes or without two megabytes? I can't wait to see them fight over how they're going to hard fork it. Now, here's the wild card. I really should get into these up my economic channel. So I will elaborate on all of these. I will elaborate on all of these on my podcast where I have more time. But the wild card is going to be is jihon and big blockers and Bitcoin unlimited. Are they going to try and preemptively do something before August 1st to kind of give us the unexpected and force our hand. Because the user activated soft forkers are now forcing their hand. This is like, oh man, I never thought I'd be in a true game theory situation. And I'm smack in the middle of it in a way. I love it. All right. So tone has moved out to the woods and gone full grown UASF radical. So we're going to unwind the show. We're going to go back to Jimmy. What do you think about tones comments? Then we're going to go to the exit question. What do you think about the tone you want to go on UASF? Jimmy thoughts? Well, I'm glad that he's actually putting his mouth where money wears mouth is right. Like he's going to go and buy a minor. He's going to start mining and doing stuff. I think that's a lot more effective than hats and putting UASF on your Twitter name. I mean, like, you know, if that helps you, that's fine. But don't think that Bitcoin actually cares about that, right? Like it. We are talking that there'd be three or maybe four bitcoins. I'm terrified. You know, I hold a couple of bitcoins. I'm sure the audience is terrified. Jimmy, can you chill them out? Is tones minor enough to throw the UASF over? Is everybody watching going to buy a minor? Where are we going? Well, so tones absolutely correct that this is a huge game theory situation. And any sort of like bringsmanship war is going to be that way. And there are moves that have been right. I put G-Hav's tweet into my article because that is step one, right? If there's a user activated software, he said we're going to have a user activated hardware. Because he's already prepared that, right? Like minor minor minor activated hard fork. No, if he said user activated hard fork because he's bullshitting again. I don't trust them. It seems like that the user activated software knows with leave the network. So then he could just activate with what's left over, right? I mean, he's all the user. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, there's a lot of game theory here. And personally, it makes me a little nervous, right? Like nobody likes war, right? And this is kind of what we're getting into. There's been a lot of diplomacy so far. I think you mentioned, I don't know if anyone mentioned what happened in New York last week. But there was a huge agreement that was made among a lot of companies and stuff. That's the diplomacy part. See by other meetings and that looks like August 1st. If something, if you know, something isn't agreed to by most of the community. Sort of our day of reckoning and I think on tones podcast, he said, well, you know, I predicted this three years ago. Something was going to something big was going to happen in August of 2017. And you know what? That's that's that's it looks like it's going to happen. And that, you know, and I don't want to scare people, but that's that's definitely going to be a big aspect of it. So yeah, I mean, this this this a big deal. And you know, I don't know if I should be calming people down because it is such a big deal. I don't know, maybe maybe, you know, like, hey, what the heck is going on and go read what's going on? I don't know. But then on the other hand, there are people that have like held for years. They're like, yeah, this too shall pass. I'm I area of expertise. Yeah, hey, hey, Jimmy, Jimmy. So you're right. Like I actually, I literally predicted August 14th as being the critical day. It kind of kills me that the user activated software because August 1st, not August 14th. Where did that production come from, Tom? Oh, my astrology technical analysis on the time series of Bitcoin. I did it in 2014 and I came up with the date of August 14th, 2017. But the user activated software because August 1st. So I'm not sure if anything will happen on August 14th. If the stars plot properly aligned, my single miner will be the first miner to find the user, the the segwood block on August 14th. That's what I've actually prayed for. If it's the only miner that would happen, I like what Jimmy said about the diplomacy is going on with the silver records. But meanwhile, this group of radicals are developing what seems like a doomsday machine. And of course, the whole point of a doomsday machine is that you tell people about it. It makes no sense if you keep it secret. We're going to announce it on Monday. You know how the chancellor loves a spectacle. Keep your shoes on to meet you. Gabriel, divine, your thoughts about the doomsday machine. August 1st. I'm so confused. I'm not going to pretend knowledge on this one. I'm confused about what all the different possible. There's so many different possible outcomes here. It seems like it's that there's only Dr. Strings love can help us now. We cannot allow a mind shaft to gap. It's the game theory. We're so into game theory now. This is why I drink rainwater. It seems like there's about eight different eight or 16 or 32 different possibilities of different types of forks. And like Jimmy, the whole situation makes me a bit nervous. But on the other hand, it does seem like miners are going to have a really tough time. And all the users genuinely want segwit. So that's nice. But yeah, I am thinking that I'll probably participate in these futures markets and try to get some more Bitcoin or something. Maybe gamble a little bit and try to get some more Bitcoin. I don't know. I'm not a big gambler or a trader, but it seems like one of those things that could conceivably work out well for the big 148 coin holders. Daddy, what did you do during the segregated witness rebellion of 2017? Let's move on to the exit question 140 BIP 148 BIP 149 segwit plus two megabytes or none of the above. You can choose only one back to you Gabriel D. Vaughan. So am I choosing what I support or what am I choosing to support everything aside, which way would you like to go? I'm going to go with choice E crying in the corner. Jimmy song also crying. Well, I'm going to choose none of the above. I think 148 is a little too soon and not planned well enough. And the other two just aren't defined well enough yet. And that's that's kind of where I stand right now. I think with a lot of the other core developers that have waited on this issue. And tone Vaze does the hat say it all. It does like I have to support BIP 148. I don't have a choice. I people are going to have to support it. It's not. It's happening. It's going to happen. The only way it's not going to work is if there is isn't a single minor that wants to mine. On the segment chain and I will be that single minor right at the least. So I have to assume there will be another minor besides me and my one box right. It's going to happen. So tone it's it's there. I'll probably publish an article early next week explaining this, but there. There is sort of like a minimum threshold of minors that need to be on the UAS. So I think it's going to be a little bit more difficult to make a viable or even to get segwit on that branch. But I calculated it out. It's something like 13% of the hash rate as of August 1st. So it's not a trivial amount. And I think there's going to have to be some support to make that happen. No, I agree with you. And I think there will be some support. I also think like slosh is already getting ready for it. I mean, I honestly, I think we need to put pressure on Bitfury. I think people need to put some pressure on Bitfury. If Bitfury comes to the side of serigated witness, it's over. And I in a way you write that perhaps a bit 148 is a little bit, you know, rushed. But look, we have to do something that transactions. The the block time is a problem. The fees are a problem. I agree. Like I probably on my podcast, I'll show it. I have a Bitcoin wallet that has less than one Bitcoin in it. And my minimum fee is $140 to send this stuff, which is like 5% to 10% of the amount of Bitcoin in this wallet. Because it was comprised over a year's worth of small transactions. I mean, this is a problem. It needs to be fixed. And I don't want to wait till July till the summer till July next year to fix it. It needs to be done. And the code is ready. As far as I know, people are asking why I'm mad at poll stores. Again, I'll talk about it on my podcast. And just like that, here we go. We've got more than 300 live viewers. Thanks to everybody for giving us a thumbs up and a share that helps other people find the show. And we also like to see your comments in the chat room and afterwards on the comments. If you'd like to know more about the user activated software, check out mad bitcoins interview with Jimmy Song, which is available right now on the mad bitcoins channel. You can subscribe to the mad bitcoins on YouTube and become a Patreon today. Donate to independent Bitcoin journalism. Moving on. It's also hilarious. I can't wait to see it. I have to hear it. Thanks for that one. Thanks. That was so funny. This phrase phase is not good, but moving on to issue two, ICO madness. The basic attention token sold 35 million dollars in 30 seconds. That's not a typo, although there is a problem. Only around 190 investors were lucky enough to win the crowd sale with some sending fees as high as $6,000. And others investing $4.7 million in a single throw. Meanwhile, others have questioned the entire ICO market calling for SEC regulation, while some still speculate outright and in great legal detail that brave might have just sold 35 million dollars in unregistered securities. An opinion shared probably by tone vays. But first, let's go to Jimmy Song and ask, what are your thoughts on the latest round of ICO madness? Yeah, I mean, the brave one was by far the biggest ICO, I think, or the most eagerly anticipated ICO in a while. I mean, we still have more ICOs to go and pretty much everyone seems to want to do an ICO these days. But it does look like to me that it was mostly traders that got in and, and you know, if only 190 people hold those coins, then they can artificially restrict supply. And I wrote this in a column a few weeks ago. The Bitcoin market cap is pretty deceiving because of, you know, these float manipulation games that a lot of these people can play. You know, I mean, the people that got in, they essentially were ticket scalpers, right? Like they just bought a bunch and they dumped it on an, and an, and an exchange and they sold it for triple. Good for them. I can't see that lasting though because that that's, you know, I mean, obviously that bad for BAT or, or I guess, you know, whoever I think it was the brave browser that sold it or whatever. But you know, I that that can that can't be good for everybody. I have heard from Vinny Lingam that they're going to do some sort of like part address limits limits on like civic that's his ICO coming up. But then again, like ticket scalpers do what ticket scalpers do they'll just have like a hundred addresses and you know, use all them. I have no idea if it's illegal that's not my area of expertise, but I will predict that there will be a college that doesn't ICO that where you can use a token for college tuition credits or something like that. And that will be interesting. Wow, that's many, many levels deep into this. Let's go to tone vase your thoughts. Hey, Jimmy, why don't you take a guess of which college that's going to be because I think it's very, very easy. I am, I'm going to get some. I'm also with Gabe on MIT. What do you say, Tom? Cornell, I mean, I'm a good sire. The big license in New York City is not going to slow them down. The scary thing is people will pay for that. All right, that's going to tone vase your thoughts on the ICO madness. Now, what just when I think the madness has reached the peak, I am proven wrong. This was like crazy. And the worst thing is more and more credible people are getting into this nonsense. This is insane. Brave is obviously a security. But a theory of a security like I, again, me and Jason cybert went over that at length on crypto scam. But it's just like, how do you not see this coming because of the of this euphoria? Like what was it? One guy spent like $4.5 million buying up these tokens. Another guy paid a $6,000 transaction fee to get the front of the line to buy this stuff. It was bought by 160 people. But here's the crazy part. There's nothing there's nobody listening to this that hasn't heard me go off on the stupidity of ICOs. But here's what I want to point to. I'm going to share screen in one second. I just want to know what I'm opening here. I want to get the article. The part that I found to be the craziest part of that article in coin desk. Okay, let me go back to hangouts. Let me make this smaller. And let me share screen. Get to see yourself for a second. So here at the bottom of this article, right? I'm reading the following little paragraph. Let me see if I can highlight it. There. Can everybody read that the browser is aiming to build a digital ad service around the token that cuts out third parties so that users pay a bad to publishers based on how long they browse and read a page. Brave itself will take a cut of these earnings. Like if they're using the tokens to create an ad network, what the hell do you need the token for? That's how the current system works with ads. If they're going to build ads around the token, what the hell was the point other than wanting to go to prison? And but I know what the point is, right? Getting it all up money. It's hilarious. No matter how terrible the outcome is of only 130 people owning it. And like what 20 people owning half of it, the guy goes, I feel this was a success. Yeah, if I made $35 million in what in in 30 seconds, I think that was a pretty damn good success too. It doesn't matter how it ends. It just matters into now. This isn't sane. It's got a Gabriel T. Von Gabriel. Are you with us? Yeah, I think he's he's off for a minute. Let's all right. We'll come back for Gabe. Let's move on to the exit question for now. Civic and kick. Oh, it gave back. Are you back, Gabe? Yeah. All right. Go ahead. Your thoughts on the ICO madness. Well, I do have a couple of thoughts on both of these articles. You know, for the for the brave browser thing. Oh my God. It's just like I'm looking into into the, you know, as much time as I had to look into what it actually is. You know, they're going to be they're going to require the users to pay the bat tokens onto the site, which then brave is going to take a cut from and then the advertisers will get the rest. Do you see an issue with that plan where people just won't use your browser if they have to pay money to browse the web with. You know, that's that's a pretty big barrier to entry and it's a pretty tall ask of your users. In fact, it's not just a tall ask. It's completely untenable and 100% bullshit. So it's going to be interesting to see just how low this token goes. I'm going to say it could end up in the single digits of Satoshi's within two years. And did we discuss Chris de Rose's article tour? Are we talking about that as well or. Yeah, I think Chris's article was so right with typical fallacies, trotted out duly by statists around the world. He. He says statists and they take it down. That is, do you agree with Gabe was Chris's article full of fallacies and requesting the big mommy daddy state to come save us. I'm mocking him, but I kind of agree. Chris's article. Wow. All right. We'll back to game. They dumped me. They didn't like what I had to say about about that about Chris there about about his status views. He's got your mark, man. I know, right? Chris and tone love to run to daddy and say that the SEC is going to save their ass and they should come and jump in here and. That's exactly what I said while you were gone. You can check the transcript. Oh, my God. That's genius. Fantastic. Thomas. You know, that's not going to stop any of this stuff. And it's just it's completely. It's just a fantasy land that you and Chris are living in. Don't put me in that bucket yet. I haven't done anything. Okay, cool. I'll let you off. Chris is you know, basically he's I think he's accurately describing the state of the situation here, but he's using all sorts of appeals to emotion and other other bullshit things like. Us that are born by ordinary blue collar Americans, bullshit. There's no ordinary blue collar Americans that are buying ICOs yet. But even if they did that's their right to do so, it's supposedly a free country. The United States, right? And then there's the reputational damage to the SEC that will grow commensurate with this market. So he's basically trying to, you know, fear Monger, the regulators into jumping in. zero in the line. It's just so Prince parent, total bullshit. And then he says, you know, the so-called blockchain securities have become a return to the South Sea bubble, the fallout for which will eventually become a burden to American citizens and taxpayers' way. There's going to be a bailout of ICO losers. I don't think so, Chris. You're jumping about seven steps into complete fantasy bullshit land. So I think, Chris does a great job of describing the situation of scams and fraud and comes to the completely wrong and useless conclusion. And he's going to keep shouting into the void. People need to learn this lesson firsthand through law, or you know, second hand or whatever, through losses. I lost X amount, blah, blah, blah. And these manias are going to keep happening. There isn't a way to stop them other than what we're doing, which is rhetoric. People have to learn firsthand that it's not the regulators are completely ineffectual and they're going to be ever less effectual as the more these bubbles blow up and the more that actual value flows into the crypto space in things like Bitcoin, which there isn't anything else like Bitcoin. That's just Bitcoin. As that value increases, their budget will be wrecked. Now it might not happen for three or more years, but they're not going to be able to pay for the regulators, kids, colleges anymore. They're not going to have any freaking money. There won't be any regulators. So get used to that now because the 20s are going to show you that we can't depend on daddy who prints money out of thin air to regulate things out of existence that you think are scams. Okay. Hey, Gabe. So I'm not saying I completely agree with Crystal Rose, but I understand his position. I'm in a bit of a type spot here because I've been like anti-dese regulatory agencies in forever, but see what's going on. You've been calling for the SEC to jump in on the Bitcoin group all the time. Well, as of like last year, but prior to that. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that that was a recent thing. Oh, no, that was a recent thing in light of what I'm seeing in the crypto space. I mean, look, when I came to Bitcoin, I was like, I hated the SEC as much as anyone. And now I'm seeing what's going on. And I totally understand where Chris is coming from. So I'm being put in a little bit of a tough position here, which I also realized maybe a bit hypocritical, but let me defend Chris here for one second here. So when Chris says that society will have to bear the cost, what he means is that there is a lot of people thrown away hard earned money that he knows and I know is going to ruin their financial standing. There are other people that have become rich out of nowhere and they're going to buy up a lot of things and they're going to go into debt when this bubble pops. So the bigger the bubble grows and when it pops, there will be so many people going from paper rich to broke that and basically having value that they had before the bubble disappear, putting them in poverty. The rest of the society has to bear that cost for people. That's what he means by it. That's what he means. I understand that. And here's the problem with that magical thinking. And this is the central fallacy of regulation and in general, sort of socialist governments, which is pretty much all we have in the world right now. You say that these people will lose their livelihood and therefore it's a burden on society. The truth is that the regulators are protecting a tiny elite who have access to the money creation scheme. That structure in society and the amount of damage it's doing to the culture and to its society is millions of times greater than any ICO scam is today. Certainly in the future, maybe it could possibly rival it, but I say more power to them. They're not doing it with guns. They're doing it with persuasion. In my opinion, that's an improvement. I don't want to argue this point too long because I do want to move on, but I'm starting to fully understand why people with only people with money should be allowed to invest in these speculative ventures. And the reality of the situation is no one hears about 90% of the failures. All people hear about is the 3 to 5% of successes. Everyone tries to like, well, Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of college and Bill Gates dropped out of college and what's his name? The Apple guy. Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs, thank you. I know. I don't use Apple, that's pretty clear. And Steve Jobs dropped out of college. That means if I drop out of college, that means I can be successful. That is the biggest fallacy of them all. The reason why these guys dropped out of college is because college was too easy for them and they didn't need it. These fallacies project. They're like, well, how come only the rich get to invest in Uber and Airbnb? Because they don't realize that the rich lose way more money on average, on these speculative projects than they make from these few successes. And you only hear about the 5 to 20 rich people that got rich on Airbnb and Uber. You don't hear about the thousands of other rich people that lose money on everything else. And this is what the SEC tries to protect. Now, I'm not saying they do a good job, but that is their job. I'm not saying they're good at it. But there is no such thing as regulators properly doing their job. It's far too easy to capture. There's no, there is no such thing. It's totally, it's being naive about human nature to assume that that could ever work. And I agree with you. And we need like a better regulatory solution. But what's happening with ICOs right now is just ridiculous. And as much as I thought something like the free market can solve it, I think something is needed. I'm not sure what that something is. You put me in a room with like, you know, 20 or 30 very smart people, not the people doing these ICOs. You put me in a room with 20 or 30 smart people for like a week. And maybe we can come up with some kind of a blueprint. Tom, Tom, to help solve this problem. But I haven't thought about it enough. And I know the current system isn't working. But I know what the current system was designed to do. And it was designed to help. So, Tom, so let's talk about the free market just for a second. This is the last thing we can talk about. What do you think would happen if, you know, several years from now, government fiat is on the way out. It's hyperinflating, say. And people are using Bitcoin and maybe Litecoin or, you know, other blockchains and Goldensilver as the, you know, main unit of account in society. Do you think that it's conceivable the free market could actually begin to learn some of these people, you know, what's really going on and show, you know, to prevent some of these speculative manias through absolute collapse of them rather than being papered over by magical fiat like today. I, was there a question there? Yeah, do you think it's possible that that could happen, that the free market could step in and actually learn these people some. I don't know. Oh, I think we're going to find out. We'll have to see in the future. But for now, I think tones right, there's more ICO madness coming our way with the exit question. Civic and kick will also raise epic amounts of money, pushing the entire ICO craze to a whole new level, a bubble within a bubble. Yes or no, Jimmy Song. Well, I mean, the next two will definitely raise a lot. What's going to get interesting is as more ICOs come on, you can't really tell how much they raise because you can sort of send points to yourself, right? And that's very easy to do on blockchain. You can just sort of pretend like a million people bought and it's just you with a million addresses. So that will be very interesting going forward because you'll sort of see that as more blockchain analysis becomes, you know, comes to these like ICOs and you'll see a, they didn't actually raise 20 million. It was like half a million because most of it was from their own money or something like that. Well, definitely say it's a bubble. I don't see the value proposition for most of these tokens. I've made the argument that you're really paying for some future good, which doesn't really sound that compelling. And it's I think, you know, when you had Chris, there were rows on there like a couple days. I thought he was very prescient in saying this. It's your sort of paying for everything up front, right? Like everyone pays for all of the restaurant seats like up front or something like that. And that that's just not a model that really makes sense or gives motivation to anybody. So yeah, it seems like a bubble to me. I think that's how they raised funds for the new avatar movies. Tone Vays, your thoughts. I think Civic will do very well. I don't, I'm not sure about kick. I really don't think kick will do all that well because kicks kind of useless as a I'd love to take your money on that tone. There's so much hype in this space. Not that I'm even going to be able to wake up at the right time to send my transaction to these things or whatever, but I just think there's so much hype. But here's what's going to here. Here's the wrong waiting for, right? You remember what happened to all of the money that a therium raised what happened to it? It's causing all this hype. It's bubbly. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. When a therium raised all of their money in the presale, they kept it in Bitcoin. And what happened to half of that money? Bitcoin went down because they didn't hold long enough. Well, they couldn't. They had to use it, right? But they lost half of that investment by the depreciation of Bitcoin. All of these companies are now holding this value in a therium that has gone up from like $20 to $230 in a span of a month, right? So if I don't, I think after these next two mega raises, the value of a therium can easily fall 50, 60 percent. And all of a sudden half of the value that these guys raised that's like sitting there in a therium, they just erased half of their raise. And again, Gabriel doesn't see that as a problem, but isn't there some kind of a financial, you know, duty of these people raising the money to keep it as safe as possible? Gabriel, your thoughts? Only morally. Only morally. Yeah. So they do have a moral responsibility to do it. But, you know, if you're going to enforce morality with guns, you just get yourself into another pickle like what we have now. It doesn't work. The incentive structure is all wrong. Only morally. And then Gabe, what are your thoughts on civic and kick? Is it a bubble within a bubble? Gabe, I think so. I mean, the kick, kin thing seems like just absolute twaddle, as they say in the UK, just total and complete bullshit. That's never going to work. What they've the reason they said that they're doing it, it's just obviously a money grab. They have no business model like a lot of social media. They can't figure out how to monetize because all they did was get eyeballs, but they have no path forward. Maybe they'll find a way to monetize, but I really don't think this magic token pseudo currency is going to do them any good. Civic, you know, the more I look into civic, the more I think it's a scam actually, but I can't say for certain because I just haven't put in the time to carefully vet all the information here. But even if it's not a scam, centralized identity is doomed. Just like centralized money and everything else, it might take 10 or 15 years, but I think centralized identity is a disaster waiting to happen. Even if they have good practices, best practices in the industry, if you're holding a bunch of identities hostage in a database, someone's going to break in and destroy your scheme. So I think decentralized identity is the only path forward. And as such, I'm assuming that their token is also bullshit, but I can't say for certain, this has just been an impression. And further record the way I've heard civic described is it's similar to Apple where they allegedly store your fingerprint locally on the device, never sending your fingerprint out, actually sending out a token that represents your fingerprint. They still have to verify your identity or your fingerprint the first time. I don't know how they do that. That's certainly not decentralized. That's a breaking point. I think it's interesting. I think some people have said that Vinny's kind of going to sell it based on his celebrity. I think that the first two projects here, Brave and Civic, have crypto roots. So they have kind of a guaranteed success pattern basically. But the third project here, Kick, I'd like to go through one more time because if they develop this application platform for their social network or their messaging app, I don't use it. I don't know it. But if they develop this, they are a company outside of crypto, coming into crypto, raising crypto money to make a crypto platform. Will this be successful? And if it's successful, will there be dozens and dozens of copycats? I'm going to go tone, Jimmy, and then get. Yeah. So actually, perfect that you said that because that's what I was going to just say before we move on to the next topic. So I'm not going to answer it. I will advise all of our listeners and all of our people that are watching this. Go, if you haven't seen it yet, you have to go watch it. And if you've seen it, you have to go watch it again. Go watch Wolf of Wall Street. And I want you to, and when the scene comes up where his, you know, penny pumping operation took a legit company, public. And that was a sneaker company back in the 90s. And when I saw, when I read the article about kick, that's what I thought of. Steve, was it Marin or something like that? I forgot the name of the guy there, right? So go watch Wolf of Wall Street and then watch it when they took a company, a real company public and how the CEO of that company ended up getting arrested for it. So that's what I see from kick. They're about to a legit company. Go ahead and say it again. No, I was just going to go to Jimmy next. Okay. Yeah. Go to Jimmy. That's how I see a kick. They're a legit company that wants to go public on top of a scam instead of on top of a real exchange. Tone sees bad things. So of course, the investment will triple. Jimmy saw on your thoughts. Well, I thought what Tone said was very interesting because all of these ICOs are going to get money, like their investment in Ethereum. And what happens if there's a small bit, they're all going to rush to sell their Ethereum. So they get, they have a long enough runway, I would think. And that, that could be a huge cliff for Ethereum. I don't know. That, that seems kind of like setting it up for a disaster. As far as kick, I really don't think it's going to get used that much. I'm still not entirely clear what they're going to use their token for or what, how you consume a token or what you can do that you can't do in some other way. But you know, I, who knows, I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure that it's a brilliant scheme where you as a programmer would work for tokens instead of money. How do you think about that? I got a lot of tokens. I got a big stack of them. You want to work? Yeah. You know, there wasn't one point people tried to, you know, pay, pay, pay, and Ethereum. Like before the Ethereum thing actually Ethereum came out, they're paying their developers half an Ethereum in the future. That's worked out pretty well for them if they hold them right now. But I can't see that working forever. Then again, like, I don't know. Like the supply of suckers is inexhaustible in this world. So who knows? I'm just kind of, yeah, I'm just an observer on this whole ICO thing. And I'm pretty sure they'd give you the same argument that these tokens are going to 10x in value and you're not going to be one of the suckers. You're going to get out early. I promise you. Gabriel Devon, your thoughts on kick to another level. You know, kin just seems like complete hogwash. I was reading into it a little bit and I think it sounds like they're just trying to get rich. And I really think that that's the case with Vinylingum too. You know, he's he jumped into the space. He likes Bitcoin. He thinks he gets it. He doesn't really, he made some decent price calls because he can do technical analysis. He's just, you know, a VC. And then he decided that he would jump on the train. I think they're just taking advantage of the climate right now and their scammers. Like just so many other scammers, except, you know, they have an existing, they were able to can either convince a VC or they are a VC on a frequent TV show. They're all scammers. Scammers everywhere. Why do you need to raise venture capital if you're already giving it out on a TV show? That makes no sense. Oh well, moving on. You can learn more about ICO madness on the Mad Bitcoin's channel. Check out my interview with Krista Rose, also a frequent panelist on the Bitcoin group who claims that the SEC is killing innovation by allowing unregulated token sales. Watch the video and share your opinion in the comments at madbitcoins.com. Moving on to issue three. Oh, and you could also send a donation if you'd like. There's a QR code you could pause it. Moving on to issue three, dark coffee. As the scaling debate continues to rage, a voice from the past, dark wallet developer, a mere talkie has returned to remind us perhaps of what we have lost. Talkie says that Bitcoin was popularized not by people spending money on coffee, but by the freedom to buy whatever you wanted on the dark markets. It was the freedom, not the coffee, that should be highlighted. Talkie also suggests that Bitcoin should have a social roadmap and that technology has never finished. Certainly, he's right about the past, but is he right about the future? Toned vase. He's getting a box. Are you ready, Ton? Yeah, I'm ready, but my computer is about to die, so I have to plug it in. All right, let's go to Gabe first then. We'll go back to Ton. Go ahead, Gabe. Your thoughts on a mere talkie and the freedom to buy whatever you want. You know, I love this article. I love Kyle. I love Kyle's writing and I love Kyle's choice of subjects. It is approach to it. I think it's it's fantastic to see a mere in the spotlight again a little bit. And I agree with what he's saying there that the space is, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot. You know, the actually last night or night before I was talking to Alex Miller here on the World Crypto Network. You can check out our chat that we had on my show Future rant. And we were talking about how Bitcoin is a fat protocol and it's a lot more difficult to create a business on top of it. You have to have to be very clever and find a very specific niche. Oftentimes I'm finding businesses that are successful. Quote, quote, unquote in the Bitcoin space are actually providing on ramps and off ramps in some sense. They're more doing the bridging to the wider economy, such as purse.io or of course, exchanges and Coinbase broker. And it's a lot more difficult to find a business model that actually works. And of course, one of the areas where businesses are achieving a lot in the Bitcoin space is where there's a ton of friction. So in the case of dark net markets, there's legal friction in the case in gambling too. The gambling companies aren't Bitcoin companies. They're just utilizing Bitcoin and it's helping them. And I think there's a lot, I think that Bitcoin offers companies more than companies can offer Bitcoin. So it's great to see that attitude being stated so accurately and clearly. And I really, I love Amir and his whole approach to life. I mean, he went to Rojava and fought with the anarchists there. It's one of the very few, you know, genuine political anarchist movements out there in Syria that are trying to carve out an area of freedom from the Islamist sun one side and the crazy, you know, dictators on the other. So really interesting take always. I always pay attention to what Amir says. A true radical in his voice has been missing while he was overseas in Syria. It's good to have him back. Also, the interview that he gave was on Tatiana's show. So you guys can check that out. Good stuff from Tatiana. Jimmy Song, your thoughts on Amir and Bitcoin and freedom. Yeah. So I mean, I don't know that much about dark markets, but I do know that this is mainly sort of like a medium of exchange argument versus a store of value argument. And I said this before on the show, I think store value is what drives Bitcoin value and Bitcoin price because it's turned out to be a very good store of value. You could be your bank, right? You can store it, you can back it up. All sorts of properties that not a lot of things have. But at the same time, it's also sort of at the heart of the fight for the soul of Bitcoin right now. As a goal, there is a cash. Is it something that you can store? Is it something that you use for exchange? And my personal opinion is that Monero and ZCash seem to be more going into that space of dark markets and sort of being able to do exchange there. And it makes sense, you know, they have other features that Bitcoin maybe doesn't have. For me, that doesn't mean that Bitcoin is useless. It's actually very useful as a store of value, right? Stability, the fact that it stayed the same for the past eight years, that's a huge property. And we don't really want to change that. And that's partly why this whole UASF thing makes me so nervous is that once you break the promise of sort of immutability or stability as far as, you know, like, you know, it's staying one coin, that could have some potentially big consequences. So, yeah, I do agree with them though that the tech is never finished because there are always new attackers, right? Again, sorry network, against our coin. So that's something that we're going to have to deal with forever. And that's that the tech isn't finished. I do think we want to be careful before we discount the importance of the drug market. If the drug market were to switch to something like Ethereum or like you're saying, Manero or Dash, I think it surprisingly, although you don't see it, I think it would be a major hurt to Bitcoin. Something about the anti-government nature of Bitcoin leaves it open to these markets. Well, it doesn't have the same anonymous features that these new coins are working on. May perhaps Bitcoin could add it. It just seems like if there's another coin that goes government having that drug market as a fallback for Bitcoin would be important. But it looks like tone veys has a lot of cables. He's got a surface. Are you with us? Tone. Yes, I'm back. I agree with Taki. The only thing he is like, I don't understand why he didn't also highlight so that's a quote. He highlighted so crowed but he didn't highlight WikiLeaks. And it was Taki that was instrumental in WikiLeaks accepting Bitcoin for donations. And that actually happened before so crowed even launched. This is the argument I always have with Jonseth. Now, Taki started the rumor that WikiLeaks needs to accept Bitcoin in order to survive. And that rumor began before WikiLeaks, before so crowed even began. Now, so WikiLeaks didn't accept Bitcoin till after the 2011 bubble like six months later. But the rumor was already out there. And prices driven on rumors. It's not driven on facts. Most of the price jumps are on rumors. So Taki is absolutely right. And I don't understand why anyone in the world wants to use ZCash for this stuff because every time the topic comes up, Zuko runs out there screaming, we can make ZCash not anonymous. It's just like hilarious, right? It's anyway. Zuko has also publicly said that he would try to stop them or try to expose them. I'm not sure how he would do this. I'm not sure why he would claim this. I don't understand why he said what his coin is for. Right? Right. Like, I don't understand why anyone takes ZCash seriously. As you guys all know, I think Dash is a joke. Monero has some potential. But a lot of these anonymous coins, they're too anonymous for their own good. Like, you can't even build a good wallet with it because it's too anonymous. I don't know the technical details. Maybe Jimmy does. Like, look, it's Bitcoin. And I've argued this with Roger many times that it's not to buy your coffee, at least not yet, maybe in the future, but we're not even close to that. And I think Bitcoin will stay this way as long as we only have one Bitcoin, which is why we got to try to prevent the hard fork on August 1st. And while we're on this topic, I saw a press release today that Open Bizarre had raised an additional round of funding this time from the Digital Currency Group. The article was on Coinbase, the details were sketchy. Well, let's just go backwards. Tone, what do you think about Open Bizarre and yet another round of VC funding for what seems like a very un-VC fundable project? I mean, they're not a scam. So they're kind of off my radar. I personally like Brian Hoffman. I like the videos that he makes making fun of all of us. And I guess, I mean, it's something. I have to agree with like, Christopher Rose on Open Bizarre. Like, what efficiency are they providing? I don't know. Well, like, unless they focus on elicid projects, I don't see what efficiency they're providing. I'm still shopping at Amazon. I'm okay with it. There's also a perceived dissatisfaction with eBay. But part of that is the size and scale of eBay. And that it's grown into a different company. And it's simply not the world's garage sale anymore. Right. I think you'd want to be the big eBay. No, that's a great point. I mean, all of these things are great until it's time to scale. Ethereum is finally learning what some of us have been saying for over a year. Just wait. Your scaling problems will be a thousand times more difficult and big points. And just now, people are starting to realize it, including Vitalik. So about damn time, you should see some of the tweets that he's like saying with people, he's like, oh, I didn't think of that. I'm like, yeah, of course not. Why would you? You're making millions of dollars on bullshit. Jimmy, song, your thoughts on Open Bizarre and Ethereum scaling. Well, I just want to go back to a point that told me about Monero. It is very, very difficult. I've been like doing stuff with Monero in particular so I can speak about it. The whole range proof and ring signatures and things like that. It makes it very difficult to put it into a mobile wallet. But somebody will do it. Jax tried to do it for about four months and gave up. Now they're doing it again. So I think it's coming to him. Just be patient. As far as Open Bizarre, I agree with you guys. It's one of those things where we all wish that eBay were dead. I used to sell on it and it was great. I was selling like Caesaceous coins on it and then they kept warning me. I was like, all right, screw them. I don't want to sell on there anymore. They have very arbitrary policies and stuff like that. I'm not sure how Open Bizarre solves any of those weaknesses that eBay might have. You still need somebody to arbitrate something. It's kind of... Yeah, I'm not sure. I hope that they succeed and I really hope that some sort of decentralized market can come and make it a lot easier for us to buy and sell things that aren't stored in a database somewhere and have some privacy around it. But these things need a lot of momentum and a lot of people in there before you really expect. So, yeah, best of luck to them, but I don't know. I'm so a little bit skeptical until they show some more numbers. Gabriel D. Vine did DCG just invest in a website where you can buy farm fresh milk, hormone-free. Is this a major advantage to the world? We need this freedom. Open Bizarre is not a website. It's a peer-to-peer client, somewhat like BitSquare, which is used for exchange between all coins and Fiat and Bitcoin. And as such, it's a completely different animal than any website. It's not the same business model as an eBay. And you guys haven't mentioned the main reason to be pissed at eBay is that they take huge fees. Of course, Bitcoin fees aren't exactly low at the moment, but at least it's not just going to some company that's sitting on their laurels with their shit product. Obviously, eBay isn't that bad, but they haven't exactly been on top of UX upgrades over the years. So, I think Open Bizarre is a great project. I think Brian's videos are hilarious. In my view, he has taken the seat as the top troll in the Bitcoin space. It's very funny. I'm glad he's spending some time having some fun with that stuff. It's really funny stuff. I don't always agree with his opinions, but that's okay because he's not taking anything too seriously, and I think that's really good. Open Bizarre in its current form, Open Bizarre 1.x is not particularly interesting as you guys pointed out. 2.x, however, supports Tor. And it's important to mention that once that goes live and it's been vetted as a safe alternative to using darknet centralized darknet markets, I genuinely think Open Bizarre 2 will be the darknet killer and there won't be any more exit scams and there won't be any more darknet markets because Open Bizarre will take over nearly all that market in my opinion. And it's a detotally big advantage. Say it as it's so. No more exit scams. How can I help you? Just not with darknet because there won't be any need to. It'll be completely peer to peer. It has multi-sig built in. You won't need that third party to do anything. They'll have third party arbitration. So I think that it'll be really interesting to see that transition happen and it's going to be very powerful. However, OB1 is a company. It seems like the business model is making custom plugins and store faces and maybe charging you for nice skins or something like that. Which they could make a little money. I think that Open Bizarre has the potential to become the world's marketplace. I think it's got a huge potential. I think DCG is I'm really, really grateful to DCG for investing in them and I hope that everyone makes money on it. It's not guaranteed because it's all open source but I think it's OB great and I think it's really super positive for us, you know, Bitcoin users. Can I just make one last comment? It might be the only one that's like troubled by how many videos a CEO of a company that just got a bunch of funding is able to put out. I don't even have time to update my website and I don't run any company. When the hell does he find the time? Oh, I guess it's Harvey, I guess. Everybody's got to have a hobby. If you don't watch TV, there's a lot of time. I think he doesn't seem to watch TV. All right, stop watching television. Let's move on to the exit question. The judge's decision to throw Ross Olbrecht in jail for life has reduced the amount of dark market activity. Yes or no, Gabriel, D. Vaughan. Wait, what was the, what? The judge's decision to throw Ross Olbrecht in jail for life has reduced the amount of dark market activity. Yes or no? Oh, I see. You're trying to make an argument about determined or deterrence as, yeah, obviously not. It's quite the opposite. Jimmy's on. I have no clue. I know the dark net will always sort of be there. It's not going away. And people are going to use it. Does it deter some people? Maybe? Does it not deter others? Maybe. It's kind of like you're asking me about something that I know very little about, to be honest. Tonvays. The judge decentralized the environment. The answer is no. The trial advertised that you could make millions and billions of dollars by creating your own drug market. And then other people did it. Applying a life sentence to the first one caught for it had no effect on the rest of the market. And there's no reason he shouldn't be eligible for parole at some point in the future. It's absolutely absurd. Moving on to issue for a necessary exchange. After a four month stoppage, the Chinese Bitcoin exchanges have finally reactivated withdrawals. And the price of Bitcoin is up almost 8.5 percent. Perhaps as a direct result. Meanwhile, at Coinbase, the demand for Bitcoin is so strong during the rallies that their servers continue to crash. Leading to articles in Fortune magazine about their attempts to resolve the issues. I ask you, Jimmy Song, does Bitcoin have the kind of high quality exchange infrastructure to maintain the ultimate rally when the world wakes up to Bitcoin? And the price goes truly parabolic. I'm not sure. I do like the fact that there's a big bump in the price in China. I like that. And it's obviously great for everybody that actually held on from before, sort of the MLKYC crack down there. I expect them to be a big, they've been on the sidelines for a while. The only sort of ways that you could get Bitcoin in China for a few months was going to through local Bitcoin or something like that. China's sort of like this double edged sword. They do seem to be leading a rally that you can see right now in your favorite Bitcoin charting service. It's been going up during the show. And it's been going up for the last few days. But at the same time, they tend to be very bipolar. Once it starts dropping, then they sort of pile on and do a lot of that. As far as Coinbase goes, I know that they spent a lot of time on the UI. And I really wish they spent more time on their infrastructure. I have noticed that outages at a lot of exchanges tend to be precursors to theft. That happened at Mt. Gox, where there was an outage for a while. And then a few months later, we found out that they got hacked. Same thing at Biffinx. They came down and then a few months later, they got hacked. So that's never really a good sign. But that said, there's a diverse ecosystem of exchanges right now. And it's a good thing that we're not dependent on one particular one. Those two that I mentioned Mt. Gox and Biffinx, they've Gox is obviously good on, but not as many people are on Biffinx anymore. So that's actually a very good thing. I think just sort of decentralization of exchanges, if you will. I do wonder if they're all prepared for you user activated software, because that's going to be a big deal. But yeah, as far as like, do we have the infrastructure right now? Probably not. I give it five years, I think somebody with the technical expertise of a Google or Facebook will really put the infrastructure, horses, horsepower into a project like that. So yeah, that's my thought on it. Ton base. Did you just tell a big corner to wait five years? Dude, they can't even wait 30 seconds. The bats tokens get sold out. Are you serious? Yeah, absolutely, man, I'm a biennulled store or a value guy, man. Look, it's unfortunate that like some of our biggest exchanges have the biggest technological problems at the most critical points in time. So I mean, this is what you signed up for. I mean, I don't understand. It's like I tweeted the other day. Some guy that's pissed because, you know, Maungog's got hacked. And then another exchange got hacked. And then another exchange, you know, held them up on KYC grounds. So he got so pissed, he's starting like a Bitcoin, you know, scam, busting website. And he's funding it with an ICO, you know, hub. I mean, this is how bad it is. Like these people don't understand the difference between actual scams, like what this guy is trying to do and technological problems, which happen. So that parts unfortunate. But yeah, the system is growing and you have to understand what you're signing up for. What I tell people is, well, why is your Bitcoin there? If you're going to be greedy, then this is what you have to deal with. And, you know, don't blame anyone but yourself, unless you want regulations to make sure this doesn't happen. Right. So it's up to you. I'm sure Gabriel Divine wants regulations, your thoughts on the exchanges. Yeah, you know, I think it's really shameful as Jimmy kind of intimated there. I think it's shameful that the Coinbase has these server problems. I mean, it's a really, it's a, you know, it's a big problem on the internet right now. It doesn't, it doesn't scale as Andrea Santanopoulos often points out. It hasn't scaled and it's failed gracefully for 25 years. And, you know, something like Made Safe is meant to address the client's server model weaknesses that are built into the system. So I think we're going to see a lot of problems like this. And as Jimmy also pointed out, when you, where you have, you know, DeedOS and, or not, again, not, it's not an attack, but it's just genuine traffic. Whenever you have that type of, you know, attack on a server infrastructure, it opens up weak points that can be exploited by attackers. So it is conceivable. We could see some, some, some more hacks out there coming up soon with all this information, but I think the really the, not information with all this traffic and interest. But I think the really important takeaway is hundreds of thousands of new users coming into Bitcoin every week. It's, it's actually quite the flood at the moment. I really always thought that it would be 2017 when we started to see the hipsters in all the western countries, the Laman to the crypto revolution. Before the, you know, for the people around the world who really genuinely need it, jump in. I think they're going to be the next giant wave is all the people who don't have, you know, the unbanked and the, quote unquote, underbanked. They're the ones who really are going to be jumping in. I think it make the numbers swell to enormity. But I've always thought 2017 would be the year of the, of the sharp edge of the western countries jumping in. And we're seeing that in, you know, South Korea as a perfect example. So I think this is an incredible time to, to be alive after we, you know, toughed out the sort of winter of 2014 through 16 there. And where we didn't see any changes in the fundamentals of Bitcoin and now the world's finally catching up. And I'd also like to say it's easy for us to sit on the outside and to throw rocks at coin base and say they should just have more AWS servers or whatever you want to say. But the reality is they have a very complicated application where they're dealing with money. They're dealing with KYC, which is identity. And they have the potential risk like anyone else does of double spends or sending two times the amount to the account or some kind of other accounting problem or someone puts a 10 instead of a one, all kinds of things could happen. I arrest, I arrest. Don't forget the IRS. Yeah, the IRS. They have to keep all these records. They have to have a record server. There's a legal requirement. There's a lot going on there. So when 100,000, 400,000 people suddenly decide they want to sign up in 10 minutes, I can see what they're overwhelmed. But we do have a high expectation for them. They are one of the leaders in this space. And we hope they can improve and we hope to see less outages in the future. I think that's the best we can hope for. Let's move on to the exit question. The ultimate Bitcoin rally, the point of TBA, total Bitcoin adoption, when all humans on the earth suddenly wake up. And in a single moment, demand to use Bitcoin, driving the prices, biking, parabolicly upward will occur on name, a date, Gabriel D. Vaughan force prediction. This is everybody in the world. Is that correct? Every single thing. 20 and beyond. Straight upward, a total madness. I think that we're going to be seeing something close to that in 2023. 2023, Jimmy Song, higher or lower? Well, I never is my answer because I'm not sure that you will come. There's way too much uncertainty right now. And as a developer, I have to think this way. There's always the possibility that something much better than Bitcoin might come along. I haven't seen it, but that's always possible. And you have to sort of lead yourself open to that possibility. But yeah, I mean, yeah, so I'm going to say something better out there. Don't tell your wife that. Force prediction. I'll say 20. 2030 tone vase. I agree with Jimmy that there's a lot of uncertainty. I was going to go with the summer of 2024. I'm going to go with the correct answer. June 8, 2020, not long at all. And now we're moving on to predictions or story of the week. Gabriel D. Vaughan, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Yeah. My story of the week is that I came back with my show after a long hiatus. I was not able to produce any shows. My show is called Future Rant. It's here on the World Crypto Network. I love to have any of your comments and thoughts. Guys, come and have a listen. Keep an eye out on Twitter for the next episodes that are currently being planned. I got lots of great guests lining up right now. Jimmy Song. Okay. Sorry. Something was wrong. All right. My prediction or story of the week is that the next two months are going to be very, very volatile. And it's going to be very, very crazy because of the user activated software. And sort of preparing ourselves emotionally for this, for this is going to be kind of critical to surviving it. I said a couple of weeks ago on Twitter that we should really enjoy this time because these uptimes and where everything's going up and everything's happening well and good things are happening for Bitcoin. These times don't come around very often as we've learned over the last few years. So my sort of prediction is that it's going to get bad again at some point. Enjoy everything and be grateful for where we are right now, which is at least double from the beginning of the year and maybe going up a little more even. Brad, it's my answer. Gather he rose buds while you may. Toned vase. Are we heading for range? Should we get out of our umbrellas? Well, I'm going to, well, I'm going to talk more about that. I mean, there's still two months. But for now, like as scary as it seems, the price continues to go up. So usually I talk about price and the prediction segment. I tweeted this out right before the show that I know I'm using Bitfinex, but once Bitcoin was going to break, 2350, I was expecting it to go all the way to like 2500 on Bitfinex, which means about 2600 on stamp. So I wouldn't be surprised if we made a new high in June, possibly a significant new high before August 1st. I wouldn't be surprised at all. Mostly because of the ICO madness looking at the weeklies. Once we get a little bit higher and we close the day, it'll be the highest daily close Bitcoin's ever had. And that's significant. It's already going to happen on stamp in about an hour or two. So it's looking great. The weekly chart, we're almost back at the top. So everything is looking good. And that's basically my prediction that price is technically looking good. As for the story of the week, I mean, look, the story of the week is the story of the month and probably of the year is going to be BIP 148. And I spent a bunch of time this week reading up on it and buying up gear to protect it, to protect for it. You can see some of it right next to me right here. And here are just some of the articles I want to point to that people must read. So here's one by Luke Dash Jr. So I mean, you can see it on the screen. So go ahead and Google for that. And Jimmy will be happy. Here's one from Jimmy. Bitcoin user activated software can skin in the game. An article I really liked. And no problem. And then here's a guide. This is we use coins, which I believe is trace mayor is initiative. And he does a pretty good job explaining what's going on along with his video where he got interviewed about it. So this gives you some tips. So that's definitely something to keep an eye on. And the article we talked about today from Kyle about getting the soft fork up and running other than that, you know, if you really want to support, you've got to go and create your own node. Don't listen to Gavin. Don't listen to other people. They're going to tell you that the world only needs eight nodes ran by, you know, eight powerful companies. That's just ridiculous. Go get go make your own node. It doesn't cost a lot. You don't have to mine. If you really want to support, go buy a minor. And I'll be talking way more about these things in detail. Oh, I was sharing. I was sharing my screen earlier. So when I said, so when I was pointing to when I was doing this to the camera that made absolutely no sense because no one was watching it. And you can see next to me my prep gear. But yeah, let's see how trollish I get on Twitter with with the user activated soft fork. Because you know, we have a following, right? Like a lot of us do. Me, you Thomas, you guys as well. I mean, we have a following and people listen to us. And if I'm going to support the user activated soft fork, I need to make sure that all my followers know exactly why. And then they can make up their own decisions. It's really on when tone changes is Twitter handle. I'd like to thank everyone for watching. We had a new all time high. We hit about 407 live viewers. That's really great. Thanks for giving us a thumbs up or share participating in the chat and commenting after the show is aired. My story of the week is obviously check out the Mad Bitt coins channel. I've got an interview with Jimmy Song where we talked about the UASF in detail. And I've got an interview with Christopher Rose where we talked about the ICOs in detail. And you can check those out at madbittcoins.com or follow me on Twitter at madbittcoins. My story of the week is I'm really enjoying this prototype that I got from Sony downtown in San Francisco. It's a little headphone headset. And here it's going to creep out all the civil libertarians. Look at that. That's a camera right there. That's a built-in camera with a little lens cap that rolls up. And what you can use it for in a creepy big brother way is I can walk around taking pictures of my life. I've always kind of wanted to do this. And yeah, it exposes me to a big brother problem. But it also captures more pictures. So you're going to have to debate that on your own. But it's an interesting new project from Sony. It's kind of like Google Glass without the screen and without the eyeglasses. But I'll be talking about that more on my Twitter. And until next time, we're out of time. Until next time. Bye.