#143 — The Bitcoin Group #143 - Price Volatility - Suits not Nerds - ICO Mania - Silbert Accords

The American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists. Christa Rose from Bitcoin Uncensored. Gabriel D. Vaan from Future Rant. To be back everyone, hello posterity. I hope that you enjoy our talk of these incredible little 2020s. Tony Vaan is from Liberty Life Trail. Hey everyone, glad to be out of the, oh man, the scam fast conferences. Holy shit. Jeffrey Jones from the Bitcoin News Show. Listen, Kristen, get to see it. Hello party people. Thanks for that. I thought I was going through the list sequentially. I didn't know it was my turn of talk. You said it. That's enough. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one, pushing the button, and pushing it again. Issue one, Bitcoin goes up and then down. The price of Bitcoin broke all previous records and skyrocketed to around $2,800 until plunging back to $2,200. Christa Rose, what is the meaning behind Bitcoin's rapid price movement? Yeah, I wrote an article about this for Brightbarr. It's actually my first article in Brightbarr. I was really happy to talk about this subject because we've all been watching this and trying to figure it out. For me, it boils down to a couple of very simple things. Certainly the closure of Asian exchanges, or at least the restrictions on Asian exchanges, cause a lot of the orders from Asia to go through Japan where I think that ICO fever is starting to really take flight from what I hear from Koji, notice coin and piece on Twitter. He's been writing up this phenomenon. I met him in person. He's a wonderful person. He's been talking about that. I think too that in general, the whole atmosphere of the United States has been more pumping as a result of this ICOs causing a lot of people to do effectively day trading now in a market that they, I guess felt they couldn't day trade in prior. I don't know why the ICOs have attracted people, but I think that a lot of the Fred Wilson and Tim Draper personalities that are promising effectively still economy value riches to this new generation of millennials, that that's kind of starting a lot of this fervor in the markets. But one last reason I'm going to throw this out there guys. You probably haven't considered this too much. It's a small part, but it's not being talked about the online gambling markets are in fact adopting Bitcoin at significantly higher levels than they ever have. I'm very curious to see how football season impacts that going forward or basketball. I don't know if we can see any mark in the uptake and in the usage, but I've been tracking that story around in my own time recently. There's a lot of meat there. So hopefully I can report on some of that as those investigations develop. But that's the trifecta really. I think that's the first time we've had a sports theme theory on this show. Has to do with the basketball playoffs LeBron and the Warriors all kinds of great stuff. It's got a Gabriel D. Vaughan. All right great to be back like I said, you know, it's. It was a time it was time it was time that the bull market had matured a technical level. Bitcoin's been in this bull market for already a long time. We've all been watching Bitcoin. And then we've been in a couple over the last 18 months, whatever 20 months. And I was talking about went quote only 15 20% a month, which is huge returns or whatever it was 10% a month. As soon as it goes hyperbolic or parabolic, then of course there's tons of searches on Google. There's tons of media coverage and attention. It gets attention. At Edward did a great job of covering numerous factors on his recent video, Renegade investor UK on YouTube. I don't remember his exact URL, but you can find him that way and he did a really good job in analyzing some of the some of the factors there like Chris mentioned in Asia. And I have continued to pick up of momentum, especially Korea, which was bleeding the rally. So I think you could say that a lot of that tension, which is a highly. Technical technological culture has got the highest bandwidth in the world. Trock full video game heads. And of course, Japan, which has the. All you on the exchanges that don't charge any transaction fees. So there's a lot of watch trading coming out of Japan, which can be bullish for the price. Certainly a lot of speculation going on in Japan, which is not a surprise considering the Keynesian destruction of that their economy. I mean, it's not a good situation for the Japanese economy. And they see this rightly so as an escape hatch. Institutional money at people seem to be indicating that Wall Street liquidity has finally begun. Washing in a bit. So that's an additional source of fiat to change the exchange rate. More than Wall Street Gabriel, what do you think about the theory that the Japanese government or perhaps even the Chinese government have started institutional buys of Bitcoin? If so, it's such an incredible minute level that it's irrelevant at this point. They could be. Heading a bets a little bit. Certainly nobody has made an official announcement to that. I've been paying pretty close attention. The closest we've gotten on an official level is the central bank of Barbados open the. About it two years ago, three years ago, maybe two and a half. But they are buying it's not very much. I mean, they've got. It's on their balance sheets. They're completely dislocating and and destroying markets around the world because every other asset that's digitally traded on every exchange, which of course they all run on computers. Every other asset besides crypto monies can be totally manipulated on both sides of the ledger. You know, you can create digital assets out of thin air. You can create you can do fractional reserve smart DCC does you can print up as much fiat as you want and just shove it into the. You know, into your post grade. You know, data, they're completely. Fictional markets crypto. But a crypto are the first honest digital markets the world has ever seen crypto to fiat. You still have to kind of get it in to an exchange and and some exchanges are probably doing some fractional reserve against like hearing some wrongs about coin base. They're not supposed to be and because. So there are now enough exchanges worldwide were probably operating in a relatively true market for crypto assets in the sense that yes, there's tons of insider trading. Yes, there's tons of market manipulate. You can't write eight or destroy these digital assets. You have to actually deliver them cryptographically and that's totally new and that isn't why. So, you know, the world is a world which are perfectly good hedges against world economic collapse. The prices on changing because the markets are completely rigged in my opinion. This is not something I have direct proof for, but it would make sense. And then a lot of other cryptos are shooting up. So, and that brings me to another, you know, an important which is just market dislocations right now. So, it's not just with flash crashes, a lot of these experiments of you know, a plunge protection. Hey, go higher China, you know, is manipulating its currency. They just changed their paradigm for pricing the you want today again. So, it's causing a lot of uncertainty. Traders are are, you know, fleeing to these assets because they're seen as a hedge against more and more. So, you know, I'm mainstream traders. They're seen as a hedge against economic collapse. They're sort of the middle ground between holding up, you know, precious metals physically, which is like a hedge against, I mean, complete collapse, electrical grid, you know, or internet shutdowns. Crypto is kind of the middle ground where it's like, okay, it's traditional market traditional financial system collapse, but still functioning electrical and and internet systems. So, yeah, I think the returns and the returns have been fantastic. A hundred and fifty two hundred percent. It just keeps going up. Let's go to tone waves. Your thoughts on the recent price rise. So, you know, I'm going to push that mute button. This is like a live show. All right, tones computer seems to have crashed or died. Let's go to Jeffrey Jones. Oh, tone. Oh, you crack us all up. Are you back tone? Actually, I think tones back. Nope. Okay. All right, tone. So, first of all, you know, everybody thanks so much for joining us. We have Gabriel Divine back. That's just awesome. Really, really happy to see Gabriel back. And we got Christie Rose on the show. So, everybody, come on, hit the subscribe button right now. So, this show is going awesome. I just want to thank you guys for joining. So, this is this price, you know, I mean, it's got everybody going kind of crazy. You know, this breakout has been years in the making. This was actually start to really have this was really supposed to happen, you know, before the Dow, we were supposed to break out much earlier in the year than this. But we had things like the Dow, we had things like, you know, Bitfinex hack that really just through this huge batch of cold water on all of our rallies, you know, like you saw, like it tried to go up, tried to go up, no, but finally, the third time, there was nothing really that could stop it. So, that's really exciting. And, you know, people don't realize like there's $14 trillion in people's bank accounts across the US. I mean, there's there's so much money in bank accounts that can actually exit. And because it's so easy to get into, I mean, you know, you just go to a website. A lot more of this money is going to be start flowing through. It's not, it doesn't have to actually be the institutional, you know, the institutional money just yet. There's a lot of money trapped in bank accounts and things like that that people would very much like to get rid of. Now, but Jeff, what if there's a problem with that website? I've heard from many people that coinbase.com went down when they were trying to buy and they were following out that, why is this happening? Didn't they have enough time to prepare for such an onslaught? Didn't we talk about this all the time? No, it's going to go up like this and everybody's going to want in coinbase. You should get some extra servers and have that AWS thing. You just buy more servers, right? What is the problem here, Jeff? So really, I think that Bitcoin is taking everybody by surprise. I mean, every single time, every single price move just comes, seems to come sooner than everybody expects. Bitcoin seems to be moving faster than anybody can predict. And every time I hear people from all the time, like, you know, no, this was actually we're supposed to be here at this time. We're supposed to be here. Because of the amount of craziness that's been going on with things like the block size and now, you know, it seems to be always something that's dragging people's attention away from what should actually be on the main train of the planet, which is Bitcoin. So there's a lot of stuff like that. I'm still expecting some corrections as we get closer to the user activated software. I am expecting even more probably of a correction than we have right now. But I mean, we could go up to between now and then we can go up to 5,000 and then correct back down to 2500. So really, there's no, you know, nobody can call the top. Nobody has any idea how high it's really going to go. A lot of the guesses are between three and 5,000. But still, you know, we don't actually know. This is an unparalleled, unprecedented situation that we have. And don't forget, I mean, the world is kind of falling apart. We have multi hundred year bond lows. We have negative interest rates in every single country. We have, you know, Brexit, Grex, and you name it. I mean, there's there's things happening in the world right now that are scaring the crap out of people. There is a ton of uncertainty. And Bitcoin seems to be becoming more and more of the safe haven that we can trust that we can say, look, if I put my money in here, odds are not only will I have it in a couple years, that nobody can take. But guess what? It's probably going to be appreciated. You know, this deflationary style asset. We've just never seen anything like this before. And the people are just loving it and eating it up. So everything is growing, right? The community is growing. The people are growing. The scams are growing. Everybody is growing. You know, the Google search for by Bitcoin is growing. And of course, on top of all of that, we have the freaking scam coin conferences. Just bringing in all this new people, all this new money to these things saying like, oh, man, I don't need Bitcoin. Like Tony was saying, people, I just need a theory. I mean, it's absolute madness. You know, when Bitcoin's been around this long. And then we have all this this fanatic craziness over these things that only have been around a couple years. So lots, you know, and of course, Japan and Korea. I mean, of course, that's going to be a contributing factor as the previous people have said. But yeah, this is, we are in a bull run. And this is not going to go down anytime soon. The world is discovering Bitcoin. So now we've got global collapse coming in both of my ears. Just want to remind everyone to push that like button and to share. We have 318 live viewers. Thanks to so much everybody. And we look forward to your comments in the chat. We're now going to go to someone who can tell us where the top is and can tell us if it's going up or down tone. Vase, are you with us? Can we hear you? Still muted. It's got a chart. He looks already. Yeah, sorry guys. I got a look at it's Friday night here by me and it's just like I got my own craziness going on. So no, I have the chart and I don't understand why people are going so crazy over this drop in price. We've fallen to Monday's price like so. No one told you to buy a 2700 when we were telling you to buy in 2014, 15, 16. And that's when you should have bought, right? And this is the time you hold either you hold through it or you just cash out and so there it is. Now I think that it's fallen far enough for the time being. But to be honest, in this current environment, no one knows. I know everyone is like reaching out to me to tell where Bitcoin price is going. Guys, I don't know. I'm pretty good at analyzing Bitcoin in a kind of, you know, stable environment. But right now, I mean, we got way out of control. And we're pulling back a little bit. And if I glance at the daily chart, I mean, this is nothing. This is literally nothing. We're falling back. We're still above my daily channel, which I initially thought it wasn't even going to break. Like I'm perfectly okay with this. And I don't see any issues with the price. Now I understand why the price skyrocketed. It makes sense for Bitcoin price to go up. But look, there's huge uncertainty in Bitcoin scaling. And besides that, the old coins are just pumping like crazy. It is insane. I know we're going to get them and further on the show. So I'm not even going to mention it. So I'm just going to say that you can wake up on Monday and we can be back at all time highs. I mean, no one knows what's going on right now is just everybody's panicking. Everyone is just like day trading. And to me, 2250 or wherever we at today still seems like an all time high. Anything over 1200 seems like ridiculous. Hi, my brother reminded me other day we once went to a Bitcoin broke 250 party. That's $250. So let's move on to the exit question. The price of Bitcoin next week above or below 2800. I hate this question because I don't have that hidden knowledge. I'm going to say below 2800 only because that's the current price is below 2800. Sticking with the current price Gabriel divine. I'm going to say below cliff high has been calling 2300 as a sticking point. So I think we're going to be hanging out here. He also called the 500 drop, which was extremely pretty. So I'm going to say we're going to be kicking it around 2300 ish for at least a week. Toned vase. I'm going to say above 2000. I have no idea. I doubt would be above 2800. I'll say will be somewhere in between 2000 and 2800 watcher, which I know is a wide range. But hey, I don't think we're going to make it back above it this soon. It's possible, but I doubt it. Jeffrey Jones. Yeah, it's pretty much everybody said. I mean, we have to correct for a while here. We went kind of parabolic. So it's really nice to finally catch a refresher and correct a little bit. So it's probably going to be around this time, you know, around the price that is now we're going to go down, we're going to go a little sideways, you know, something like that. But yeah, as the rest is everybody else. I don't think we'll be back up to 3k anytime soon. It could be definitely by the end of the year, but we have things coming up like the user activated software and stuff and other things that are going to probably correct the price a bit. So it's going to stay around here for a while. Bitcoin goes above 3000. The price knows no bounds. It cannot stop the hype is infinite issue to consensus conference. The consensus conference put on by coin desk owned by Barry Silverts digital currency group took place this week in New York City. The conference was different than previous conferences, according to lightning network developer Joseph Poon, who said that he only recognized like 10 people and that there was no nerd table admits further investment into cryptocurrency by major players and finance, including JP Morgan, investing into Z cash tone. So you were at the conference is Bitcoin no longer the domain of nerd has big finance taken over. So I think that Joseph Poon's comment was about the token summit the day after the three day consensus conference because of the consensus conference you would have recognized a lot of people. The token summit was just you know taking the. Another level now hey can we just like maybe a show of hands you have to unmute how many of you like watch the live stream videos of the speakers that are here on the panels. Jeffrey you did Chris no. No and I will be okay so I didn't watch any of the panels I actually did not make it to like. That single session the only one I made it into was like when we need link have spoke during lunch and I didn't make anything else I was just in the hallways with. With all of the people there and it was like no one cares about Bitcoin it's completely irrelevant to all of them everyone is creating their ICO. And it was there and it was in the token summit and I think we talked about it in our little green rule right before the show it's like I know why I got into Bitcoin I got into Bitcoin because. I liked it as you know for my libertarian views which I kind of no longer have but it's maybe I'm still in it from Jeffrey but like we got into this because we hated it the government was printing money and now everyone is printing their own security and they're all printing their own money. And and all of and they all think this is okay so Jeffrey if I'm stealing your line please correct me because I don't even know anymore like I'm so. Yeah that tweet that we get like 100 freaking 80 like. I don't even see a few people I mean it's perfect. But we that that's just perfect I mean it's absolutely insane and now like. I look like the crazy one I look like the voice of reason trying to explain to them that this is freaking insane and they're all everyone around us is getting rich I know everyone that does podcasts on this channel we're all like man all we have to do was put a thousand dollars into a theory and not you know calling it a scam from day one. And we would all be rich today and look at us now meanwhile and a good one with Stephen Colbert said about global warming when Al Gore's book or movie in book the inconvenient truth made money he said that made global warming real we're now in the same situation where a theory and where if it's over $200 if it's over $100 it must be real the price says it's. But it was just like no one there like even cares to listen to reason like I don't even know why I go to these places anymore it was a just it was a very frustrating experience I was there through all the conferences it was basically I had like little tables of sanity right so I would so I would walk around I would talk to all these people and then I would walk into the block stream of block stream had their own little side. Room for their meetings and stuff I'd walk in there no one would ever be in there besides Adam back and Andrew Paulstra it was and Matt Corrillo would be coming in and out and like no one even those who these people are like nobody cares or I would walk over to the uneau coin table sit down talk to sunny Ray I mean there was nobody else there for me to talk to I found tour the meester on the on the last like my highlights at a conference are different than others my highlights are the conference was like meeting whale panda in person you know because he's always been very fairly anonymous you know like and the meeting Samson mild for the first time and you know having a little chat with Adam back having a chat with sunny Ray of Udokoyne hanging out with tour the tour the meester for like you know for a cup of coffee things like that like those were my highlights like and we're all like looking at each other going are we the crazy ones and these were the people I always respected for their knowledge of the industry and I like we're sitting there go and like him is it possible we're all wrong we all think a theory on this just you know complete and other nonsense that is not sustainable technologically or economically but I'll see where it goes I it's so disappointing that that is the biggest venue in all of crypto right now. Yes, let's rewind it a second let's go back to what we thought would happen we always knew that big business was going to come in in many ways we announced it we called for it we called ourselves the Trojan horse we want them to come and take Bitcoin in so that Bitcoin gets bigger and they realize they can't control it. But isn't that happening now with the theorem and in a smaller degree with like one they have an out an official Bitcoin they've got a creator they've got a place to go if they want a hard fork. They have choices they have IBM and a theory and Microsoft isn't this what it was going to be like tone there they're co-opting big I mean I guess I would have if that's what they want I don't want to compare a life coin to a theory I mean those are very very different things but I. Nobody wants light coin either no one there talked about life coin no one there cares about light coin. Honestly no one even cares that much about a theory and it's all about the next ICO it's what they can pump. Is the. The biggest sponsor and the one making the most noise at that entire conference was EOS and that's then Larimer scam number three that one had the after parties that one that one was the biggest. I know that was the biggest draw off for the next big pump as an ICO so I don't know I don't know like like like coin wasn't even mentioned I don't know what to say anymore like I'm obviously I've been totally wrong about which way this bubble is going to go. And you be being a big corner these days is like you know silly is like hi you only made a hundred percent this year on the price of Bitcoin going up it this is insane. This is insane and I think Bitcoin got way out of control I didn't want to see it go up this high this fast I don't have enough Bitcoin to be happy about this. It feels like we're the old Unix geeks in the server room with our main frames and we're loving our Unix and everything and everyone's coming out of these little desktops and laptops and worrying around so much faster than the rest of us were old timers now tone were antiques. Let's go to Jeffrey Jones I'll leave it there I'll leave it there all right let's go to Jeffrey Jones your thoughts on the conference and the revenge of the suits. Yeah, it's it's really what's happening is it's freaking pure insanity. I think this is this is probably echoing you know that the dot com boom but it's some people have said I mean we're not even there yet like we still have a whole huge run rate ago run way to go. Before we even get close to the dot com boom but man this is definitely must have been something close to what it was like I mean I didn't go to this conference you know because I don't go to all the conferences anyway but this one I mean you know I knew it was going to be private block chain this private block chain that token this token that this you know it's just it's pretty crazy with these suits all coming in and you know people like myself and tone and you know maybe even a bunch of people on the WCN and even Chris you know we all look like the crazy people now you know we're that we've been telling people first so long that Ethereum is not sustainable that that ripple is crap that these freaking coins that they're just but perpetual motion machines right they're pretty people creating tokens out of nothing printing money and yet it's it's insanely taking off you know I did tweet out that tweet that said you know I got into Bitcoin to stop people from printing money you know but that's that's what all anybody wants to do these days I have people have completely forgotten because those the people that you know that I say have forgotten those are the people that never really knew those of the people that are just coming in they're seeing dollar signs you know with like the Ethereum alliance bringing in all this dumb money all these people in suits all these things thinking that they're going to get rich with promises of you know look at Bitcoin everybody says look at Bitcoin that's the promise that's what we can have we can have Bitcoin we can recreate Bitcoin and it's like no people no Bitcoin cannot be recreated by any type of company or single entity it is not it or organically was created and was organically grew up in an ecosystem without shit coins and scam coins and stuff you know I mean it's it's a completely different thing Bitcoin was created because there was a need for something not created to get money and all of these freaking these coins now they literally have all these baked in schemes right all these baking schemes that got to support the developers 15% over every every year all these all these things built in no no no whatever happened to open source well I'm getting a little bit off attention but you know I mean this kids they're needing a thousand x returns right they're like I'm not happy unless I get a thousand x I mean what the hell someone tell me where the next thousand x is because this is ridiculous um you know it seems that the blockchain narrative now has been completely replaced with tokens this is the narrative now tokens you know everybody's got a print of token everybody can make a ton of money just print your token and you know there's people that we respect like tone and I you know like like Vinnie these people that we respect now are all launching a freaking token everybody that we the creator of JavaScript and is launching a token okay everybody is freaking launching a token and it's starting to get insane so my last words is pure insanity hey Jeffrey hey Jeffrey here's another one on and that's just because you said they all want to know where the next thousand x return is because that's their minimum they're creating their own thousand x returns with coordinated pump and dumps and then they're mad at Wall Street from manipulating the markets and that they're evil the irony the irony is too thick to cut people it's just ridiculous Jeffrey Jones getting a little religious there in the beginning Bitcoin was holy in pure there were no shit coins but of course I was there in the beginning and I'd like to thank our 408 live viewers for joining us as well give us a like and a share and I remember the beginning I remember let's talk Bitcoin creating let's talk Bitcoin coin and I remember a counter party and let's go back to Christopher Rose who maybe saw all this coming counter party the first coming of a theorem make your own stocks rare pepés Christopher Rose what do you think about the consensus conference and the nerds I'd love to say that I saw this coming but I did not I I have made a number of mistakes in my life one of which is that is repeatedly a mistake is overestimating the wisdom of crowds it seems like the madness knows no bounds and we are seeing that here for sure you know I'm editing up right now a video it's a post conference review with Ricardo fluffy pony of Monero and he said a bunch of great stuff in there and I really look at for to releasing it should be out tomorrow so but one of the things that really stuck with me is he said that this was kind of what he would have expected to see at an amway conference or like an MLM conference that what he he could foresee happening at the ratings are going is it the word blockchain kind of gets associated with maybe that friend that you have who's always pitching some like high yield investment product scheme and that seems to be what's going on and I think he's right you know what's hilarious to me about all of this is that we were just outright like chastised for what we've believed in in Bitcoin in in the early years amongst every forum of of suit and professional imaginable we were stupid we were weirdos were this were that but I never saw this level of stupidity coming out of us we at least had like some pretence of an economic function there was some coherent goal that we shared there was at least like we may have moved on from libertarianism in a lot of cases but like there was there was this sort of greater purpose to things and there's none of that here people call me a nihilist and maybe I am but but this seems like weirdly like self indulgence you know it's not even maybe it's nihilism but it's sort of like a hedonism of sorts that's just like completely unbounded as this sort of pursuit of greed and that's it so I'd like to think that we had some degree of higher ground when we were looking into this and maybe I'm kidding myself but you know I think at some level of like the summer of love in like the 70s and you have like these sort of like movements where the early adopters get in it becomes interesting for any number of reasons and then as the crowds appear the meeting is completely lost it degenerates and the movements over and I don't know if that's what's going on here but it certainly has a lot of those makings so it'll see how history tells things but you know I talk with like Elaine Ormsby about the early days of Silk Road and the mystery and the weirdness and the sense of being part of something great and a lot of that is gone for me now and maybe these people are just going to have that but for me you know I don't know what anybody really stands for like this word token to me is a name we've had tokens forever we've had tokens in online games we've had tokens in the form of gift certificates on paper we've had tokens arcade games when I was a kid you put a token in it's so uninteresting the only reason that they're massed here the only technological innovation if you want to call it that is that there's a power vacuum at the SEC whereby the SEC has turned a blind eye a blind eye to the security pump and dump boiler room 2.0 system that is existed now and that's what's new that's all that's new there's nothing else there's no nothing this being done requires blockchain nothing that's being done is anything untested it's just vanilla pump and dump securities scams which I think are fine you know but it's not for me that's not terribly interesting there's no research being done none of these projects will be interesting in fact I'm even hesitant to use the word bubble at this point because at least bubble has had like a veneer around it of substance that kind of keeps the gas intact this is just gas ain't nothing else happening people want to tell me I think I'm the Simon Dixon interview that we're having a 90 percent correction I don't think so I think it's going to be a hundred percent because there's nothing at all that I've seen that is a fact checked peer-reviewed appeal to science or restriction of claim in any capacity it's what you know the best way to understand this is if anybody hasn't done this you really should look into the Albanian Ponzi crisis of I think it was 97 the country had a civil war over the unchecked securities law that caused Ponzi after Ponzi to grow greater and greater what happens as a result of a lack of regulation is that claimants end up competing on their feature list and not at any any sort of grounding any fundamental value any appeal to reason because the nature of investment is such that an investor can't gain access to specialization that's what he's investing in theoretically is someone with specialization if that investor had the specialization he wouldn't be investing he would be leading an investment so that that is the function that the SEC provides when it's providing it well and you can see it take out countries in the past as a result of this unbounded optimism and we're seeing that here and for me I don't know I didn't want to go to the event and for a number of reasons because if I went to one of these conferences I'm not going to be I'm not going to be censored I'm I'm Bitcoin and censored so I will either get kicked out no time which kind of nullifies the value proposition or to sit there look around at these idiots and like not I don't know how to keep my mouth shut that's basically the bottom line I don't know how to keep my mouth shut pass it out to the next guy well I agree with you about the madness I don't think it's over I'm afraid we're at an early point and it's still gathering and just based upon numbers I always felt before we were doing a lot of Bitcoin shows we were talking about a lot we weren't getting the numbers we were looking for in the views and the likes and these kind of things I feel like now there's just more people there's just more people in a Bitcoin the servers are crashing numbers are going up it's not international it's just number of people on the planet that haven't heard of Bitcoin yet and we're getting more of them here's one thing I'll say about that is that the greater fools the well of greater fools will almost certainly continue for as long as the regulation continues on abated that that I think would be the historic lesson that I would apply here so it'll definitely your your statement as to the effect that this will go up is entirely contingent upon the time at which the SEC regulates and one thing that fucking weirded me out more than anything else was the press and burn seemed like one of the most reasonable guys at the conference and that that is crazy to me because you have this progression of like old Bitcoiners to like Ethereum to like Preston burn and then it just keeps them going now and as things advanced into like the further and further into madness that the freaks of yesterday are like the wise men of today and you see that Preston burn is there and and I see this a little bit with digital asset holdings I see this a little bit with our three even as the madness continues the old the people who are now in it for a year or two are looking at the noobs and saying this is unreal this is exceeded my my ability to participate at some level and I'm seeing it now with like Preston burn who was who's yesterday's freak who was today's like wise man in this crowd so I don't know sometimes the lesson is weird I the people I see in but coin are often very reasonable these days and that wasn't always the case and I don't know if but coin is where you end up after having seen enough of Bitcoin to recognize the role that skepticism plays or if it's just where jaded people go but I foresee a lot of people in Bitcoin who are perfectly reasonable Bitcoiners who believe in Bitcoin going to places like but coin because that that is where the skepticism is being done and and I see it to people like Preston burn and it's amazing to me absolutely amazing it's like watching a caterpillar turn into a butterfly or some such nonsense I don't know it's weird it's really starting to feel like all this Bitcoin knowledge is opening up the arc of the covenant and somehow you look upon it and it's too bright and you stare away or like it's too much for me and you look at it later you're like oh really was too much it really is all these things that we want and somehow we're going to get there but all these nubes are it's so bright they can't see anything else we're going to go to a quick comment from Jeffrey Jones a quick comment from Tony Vase and then we're going to go to Gabriel D. Vaughn here we go yeah I just wanted to reiterate something that the Chris said I mean there was in the early days this greater purpose I felt that everybody felt that the whole community was actually caught up in a greater purpose a greater movement we all knew that we were doing something greater than ourselves you know we were almost we were basically trying to fix money right we were trying to to do something greater than ourselves and it does not feel like that so much anymore right all of these new people coming in with all these tokens you know in the early days it was all of us together huddled around a TV like watching the regulations on television watching Fincen right we were like oh sweet oh we're going to do it you know that it was just everybody was just watching and waiting for this new possibilities this greater purpose this greater movement and and now that that to me a lot of it is lost with all of these things with these tokens with Ethereum and things like that because I do not believe there's a lot of people in Ethereum that have this ideological purpose of fixing money of of creating something you know bigger than themselves they just seem to want to create the next de app the neck make their million dollars and then exit right I mean but but the craziness is palpable we got coin base signing up over 400,000 people a week and and gdax taking two weeks to sign people up and you know it takes somebody like fluffy pony right to go to the conference and for control these people proper because this is what it's going to take to start waking these people up is it's going to take some trolling and you know Kristi Rose and fluffy I mean you guys you guys do it the best so just just keep it up that is the one part of the conference that I wish I could have seen the fluffy pony speech sounds fantastic and just to add to what Chris was saying earlier we are waiting for the SEC to regulate this but given the attitude and I don't want to get too political here but given the attitude of the Trump administration not filling out the government departments and hiring everyone I don't know how much power the SEC is going to have or the IRS I don't know if they're going to expand into these new errors or just shrub their shoulders and let them go by tone vays a quick comment but we've got to get to Gabriel Divaan yeah I know a very quick comment because when Chris was talking about Preston Burr not only that we're about Brian Hoffman I mean I like these are voices of reason now right the people we used to make fun of now they're the voices of reason now with they're the ones that they did I like talking to these guys I had sat down with Preston at the conference me and him are going what the hell is going on here and I would not in a million years I would have bet all of my Bitcoin three years ago that I was never going to be on the side of the SEC and the regulators and now I can't wait for them to get involved and just like get rid of all the all like all of these just scams that are printing their own the securities this is insane I never thought I would do a 180 on the regulators the libertarians are bearing you now tone Gabriel Divaan your thoughts on the suits coming into the conference well a lot of statements there that I'd like to make some comments on first one I'm going to follow on from what Tom was just saying and what Chris was saying which is you know that some people think that regulation can play a part here I am not of that belief I don't believe that the Albanian crisis was solved by the government stepping in that was merely a symptom not the solution and I think that you know the leftist authoritarian approach to markets can be can work for a time can be a band-aid I think what we're going to see here is that because of cryptography because of the many ways to be anonymous online we're going to see the culture shift and the level of trust in these projects is going to drop but it's going to take years and a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money in the meantime regulators will never be able to keep up with this shit the SEC may or may not step in but it's not going to do much there's going to be plenty of anonymous ICOs and people are going to eventually I think it's going to take eight ten years maybe before really we see a big shift where it's like what you're just a fricking scammer I got my Bitcoin you know there were a hundred thousand bucks a piece or whatever it is and the you know at the the time will shake out these you know lies and scams and intelligence will be the determining factor a lot more you know that's the sovereign individual sort of hypothesis which is not that it's something that one is for or against it's merely the logic of violence and the logic of technology that individuals are being empowered we're seeing that right now with Bitcoin a bunch of individuals are empowered to you know create ever more sophisticated scams and fleece ignorant people out of their money and that's going to keep happening for a number of years until people just become totally skeptical and that'll be really interesting time because if there are interesting projects they'll still be relatively slow to catch on so you think back to 2008 2009 if when if you heard about Bitcoin back then you're going to be like wow that sounds like such a scam and I think that we're going to be coming back to something far even more defensive than that even more not defensive even more cautious than that so hey Gabe yeah there's just one thing like when you say the regulators look everything like the entirety of the any when you remove Bitcoin from the equation you take everything else out of that everything else I would say 95% of all that value is sitting on top of one person and if that one person gets handcuffs on him that entire house of cards implodes because there will be zero confidence in that system you want to guess who that person is metallic buterin of course so I'm not saying that regulators won't have an effect on anything I'm just saying that the wider shifts in culture will not be achieved by increasing regulators budgets or you know having them work harder the real shift is going to be people being disempowered by giving their money away to crooks and the longer that that happens the less money that those people will have and the more money the intelligent and prudent will have and it's just inevitable that's just how the world works so and you know that that's really a theme you know even us panelists we you know maybe even think of ourselves as somewhat you know informed if not you know an occasional expert on the show I don't consider myself an expert I consider myself relatively well informed with a decent head of my shoulders but still I am referring to authority figures you know because they convinced me it's not because of their authority I'm not appealing to their authority per se but somebody's arguments you know convinced me Greg Maxwell Adam back Andreas Antonopoulos you know over time not what he says about ethereum but what he said has said about bitcoin for years these guys it convinced me with their arguments but I'm not a C++ developer and if I dive into the code base I'm definitely swimming without an inner tube so everybody is on this spectrum you got one end with 12 year olds with an app on their phone buying you know some sort of ethereum token with their video game they have no idea about bitcoin they're just you know throwing moms three bucks into an app coin they have almost no knowledge and then on the other hand you have bitcoin core developers you know loop loop dash junior or Greg Maxwell's or Peter Willey you know some of the most innovative minds of our time and everybody is somewhere on that spectrum and you know the people are going to get fleeced other people are going to be you know that's just how the world is and we're going to see monetary value being tied to one's ability to discern ever more in the coming years so everyone get used to it because this idea of oh well my nephew was you know give me a job in this company it's an on VP and I make 275 grand a year and I don't know if I can clue what I'm doing that I hate to call up a meritocracy is kind of what these technologies are forcing on us and as far as I see os you know as I've said many times on this show I don't know who has heard me say it but definitely tone has I see os and DAOs just decentralized autonomous organizations in my opinion they're they have a huge potential to completely transform our society and culture all of those keywords and buzzwords and all that shit in my opinion that they're spewing out at these conferences for their fricking scams all of that hyperbole is actually completely true however to actually achieve one of these decentralized autonomous organizations where all of the participants who hold the token are also owners of the equity that has a function within that economy is completely missing from nearly all of the projects that are being proposed if not all I'm as I've said many times I'm a fan of made safe I think they've been working on their project for 11 years who knows when they'll finish but that's a genuine project they've got funding that you know the made safe coin is a is a you know placeholder for what they'll eventually launch but that's the type of system where the coin has plays an integral part and it's got a proof of resource model that's tied to the physical world I think that's something that's defensible maybe there are some other ICOs floating out there right now among the dozens that are also legitimate it's very challenging to have time to investigate all of them of course and so many of them are so new I completely agree with the rest of panelists that virtually all of these are complete scams that are heading to zero but I'd just like to point out that there is a potential there and what's missing from most of these scams from from all the scams that the genuine article will possess is a definitive link between the app coin or app token and its economy you have these situations where it's this sort of vague nebulous you know vaguely worded white paper that has no bearing on anything and it's just a crowdfunding model and all the people that are buying these tokens are either going to be selling at the top trying to sell at the top or they're going to be greater fools because the entire you know what would you call it premium what do you call it stock when you get paid dividends right so there needs to be an integrated dividend model with these DAOs and if they don't have that and it's not cryptographically provable and it goes through essential source then it's exactly what DeRose is saying which is it's just a scam with a guy behind it who's issuing a bunch of pre-mind bullshit it's just like issuing a bunch of stocks for your penny stock and trying to get around the SEC but if they can create a cryptographically proved system where any money that is coming in any value that comes into the system if somebody sells you know Bitcoin and buys the app token and actually uses it people will have to the owners of those app tokens will have to be paid their dividends or whatever the system is in a cryptographically provable and decentralized way otherwise pure scam. Now I totally agree with Gabriel that everything they say is true just not yet and the other thing is that I'm rather impressed well maybe impressed isn't right the way maybe I'd say horrified I'm rather horrified at the way which these people can invest into random things I found it very difficult to buy my first bitcoins I didn't know very much about Bitcoin's I work hard to get my money I thought I was sending it into a black hole I would never see my money again and yet we have people who are presented now with three options at Coinbase and they choose randomly to buy Ethereum or Litecoin because it was cheaper and sure that's a fine reason to buy something but we're talking about an investment if you're putting thousands of dollars into it maybe you need to know more but then again these people that invested randomly in Ethereum made thousands of dollars so maybe you need to know less. Christopher do you have another comment on this before we go to the exit question? Yeah I one last point that I wanted to make is that there's a funny side effect to this ICO thing and you've seen it over and over again we've seen it with Dan Larimer we've seen it with a number of people in the Ethereum team the people it's they are announcing the entirety of their companies receivables for sale at launch at that time any money that could possibly have been made in an incumbent model is no longer makeable so they've released a significant to a majority amount of that of that value into the economy they've collected it they've sold that and they have it themselves this isn't exact but this is roughly the case and now their incentive is to leave you don't give somebody their you know some of you who announces a new company I don't know a piece of parlor you don't give him the entirety of his company's sales and then expect him to work for the next hour of any years and continue to make good on that promise when he can just leave and take the money that he would otherwise have earned and pocketed and left and that's what's going on and yes they put some amount of capital theoretically in the form of inventory that they keep in the project but that's just a token no no no no no no no pun intended yeah I told you to do it it's a twist yeah and that and that note real quick Fred Wilson the Union Square Adventure VC the last person I heard speak at yesterday's uh talking summit yeah talked about this how a lot of these companies aren't got way too much money in the front and they don't do anything with it and you know what example he used for it to lock stream oh I did see that but I know that was the context that's absurd that's completely that's that was his example of a company that got way too much funding uh up front and then have a and and isn't doing anything with the money that's because that's his example completely sir now now I've seen them speak at the Bitcoin developers meetup and the stuff that they're working on is so over everyone's head they were working on how to improve if you transmitted a Bitcoin address over a telephone and you were writing it down and you made mistakes they were talking about how to improve that process and they had done incredible work on it it was like a scientific thesis about basically you know words that people would get wrong it's just out of out of their minds but go ahead Chris did I more on this or gave me a little bit of that's all it's just your your these I see as you're paying people to leave their company it's like here you go you had a great idea I will pay you to leave and like that's that's often what's happening yeah the incentives are completely crazy and wacky and that's something that you have to you know that you have to adjudicate on an individual basis and that's why you know so many of these white papers are complete bullshit only somebody who's read at least five or ten can tell that there's at something at all there and you probably have to really know you know have it degree in cryptography almost to tell whether something is viable or not in the long run but at least if it's not a scam you know that paint that's a little bit of a lower bar I just want to say that I never actually answered the question which has big finance taken over I'm gonna say no big finances writing the co-tails of the nerds and I saw a great tweet floating around I can't remember who I think it was by the guy who's always talking about right you get regulation I've tried to remember he's like an old foundation guy but kind of foundation but apparently he heard a guy in a suit say that the hoodie guys are all millionaires now so you know Joseph Poon this is kind of what he's talking about where it's all the suits right you can tell it's very clear and you can see the pictures vortex was watching but the pictures of the panels you got the one guy with the hoodie and then the rest of these schmucks with with ties on no offense Thomas it doesn't count for you because you're hosting the show so you know these schmucks just want to get in on the action make a buck on their scams but of course the important point is all their instincts are wrong because the tide has shifted we're now it's 2017 it's over the argument about whether Bitcoin can work or something is nobody even tries to do that anymore because it's obvious this thing freaking works the consensus algorithm created by Satoshi Nakamoto works their paradigm is now overshadowed by real open innovation and that is the opposite model of the corporate hierarchy only the tiniest fraction of these you know tie-wares will actually be able to pivot their businesses successfully the rest of the of FinTech the entire FinTech movement will be bust within four years is my prediction and this is what we used to say about the dot coms we'd say your business needs to get online if your business doesn't transition to the online you'll be dead in five years they laughed and they laughed and then we destroyed the music industry in the movie industry and the the finance industry is next and it's unfortunate but it's what's going to happen it's evolutionary it's unstoppable let's move on to oh and of course this suits just a costume they gave it to me and wardrobe let's move on to the exit question is it good that big finance has taken over making it more likely that anyone who owns a single Bitcoin will be rich or bad because Bitcoin was more than something you owned it was something you believed in tone base I'm sorry can you repeat that is it good to be rich because finance is here or bad because Bitcoin was a belief system before I don't know how to answer that honestly I don't even know how to answer the question I don't I don't get the question look you have to do a moral judgment between the value of being rich versus the value of having a community of substance well I clearly chose the community I clearly chose to be like a content creator way over being rich and I'm not even talking about the old coin space even back in the Bitcoin space I mean all I had to do was shut up work by hundred figured job and converted all into Bitcoin and I would be significantly better off today even not participating in the Ethereum stuff and maybe if I didn't meet any of you guys who are on this panel maybe I would maybe I would have fallen into the whole group thing and bought a Ethereum and Ripple and God knows what else now I don't regret any of those decisions and I regret like other decisions but not these and it is what it is and maybe when this whole crypto space implodes like the dot com bubble hopefully Bitcoin will not only be the last one standing but it will also absorb a lot of that value and the fear is that it'll absorb too much value and that will pump like crazy and get crushed under its own weight Jeffrey we need stat what we'll get that up later go ahead so sorry what was the exit question is Bitcoin better because it makes you richer is it better because it's something you believe in all right so for me you know what like I've said this before like what gets me up in the morning right is is the mission of separation of money and state like I've always been about the mission with Bitcoin that's why I got into Bitcoin is to stop people from printing money not to enable more people to print more money so for me it's about the mission and really in my opinion that's what is going to make Bitcoin win the open source the free open source development the contribution the voluntary the voluntary work that is done being done by some of the smartest people in the world that is what's going to win and that's what's that's what's important to me either a borrower nor a lender be this above all to thine own self be true Chris DeRose is it better to be rich or to have a good community I think you said this was a moral question I'm incapable of answering those but I can answer this comedically to which I'd say absolutely this is wonderful I love the finance people here because there was an alternate universe where we did this thing and maybe it didn't work or maybe I don't know something else came by and attracted Bitcoin but now at least I get to say well it did or didn't work still TBD but we weren't as stupid as those guys so I'll take it I'm happy for that Gabriel D. Vyn the better suits are here they have nicer suits with collars yeah you know I once again I disagree with the thesis that big finance has taken over I think they're getting taken over they're getting eaten up and if anything they're going to be the bag holders in greater fools with their worthless fiat and stocks and bonds that government defaults while our audience all you guys the 408 of you or more will be the winners because you've been listening to us fruitedly storing your wealth and Bitcoin and making fun of all the scams out there so let's keep ridiculing and keep stacking our Bitcoin I think you can also get an ounce of gold for about half a Bitcoin now that's the two ounces for a Bitcoin and we'd like to thank our 480 live viewers that's a lot fair we can give us a thumbs up and a share that'd be great we're moving on to issue three issue three ICO mania more and more seemingly reputable companies are announcing ICOs this week with Vinny Lingham former CEO of GIF taking his blockchain identity program to ICO joining chat app kick which seeks to challenge Facebook with a developer ecosystem meanwhile brave software is launching a basic attention token as they continue their goals of paying creators for their time Jeffrey Jones any interest in these ICOs have ICOs suddenly become a mainstream and respectable way to raise funds like look I'm all about crowdfunding I'm all about somebody with passion going out and with a plan and passion going out and asking people for money to help fund their their idea right like that's that's pretty great like that's um and I think the cryptocurrencies will continue to facilitate that use case however without the world that we live in right now you know anybody can throw up a white paper a website and lie to somebody and tell them that hey this is the next big thing and get a million dollars and so until such time as the rest of the panelists have said it until such time as someone and anybody can just look quickly and just think okay that's a scam my Bitcoin that's the real money until we live in that world where people recognize Bitcoin as real money and these tokens and these other things and just recognize them as stocks or just recognize them as you know for what they are token to the database and recognize Bitcoin as real money until we get to that point you know there's going to be a lot of these freaking people raising these ICOs and for every you know thousand ICOs there'll be one decent interesting project right so there will be some interesting stuff that's going to be funded from these ICOs but unfortunately 99% is going to be crap 99% of people are going to lose their money they're going to go cry to the government SEC is going to come in and they're going to regulate the shit out of it so I mean and you know they're going to try at least they're going to try and now that's going to definitely drop the prices and up the barrier entry to to create an ICO and so you know that's that could come in any given time nobody really knows when that's coming but at this point in time like like I said I mean if you really have an amazing idea an amazing project you know try Kickstarter go on something else we're not asking people for millions and millions of dollars just so you can exit scam later 99% crap but 1% quality Christopher Rose would you buy that for a dollar no not buy anything anymore I'm too scared to start a farm I'm going to do the libertarian thing and we're out of nowhere for these crazies you know I'm watching all this ICO stuff and like there's a lot of things that are very funny to me like so there's video link them thing first off it just coincidentally I interviewed Steve Wilson I put this interview up like a actually a couple days ago and we talk about blockchain identity which is like the pretense of his fundraise theoretically and there's no money in that there's never be any money in this like the whole thing is absurd but it doesn't really matter because like it's got the video link of name on it so basically what these people do people like video link them is they say I'm going to start an affinity scam I'm here I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do my affinity scam and and that's what they all do Dan Larimer the talent etc we're seeing people branch out you see that certainly in the I guess celebrity space with Vity Lingham now where he's gonna launch the affinity scam it doesn't really matter like what what it is it could have been VR could be gaming it could be anything so he shows identity and people are gonna put money into it because you do the Keynesian beauty contest thing where you don't evaluate the thing like this is a mistake clearly the thing that I've always done I think everybody here is done has evaluated the technology on its merit and then extrapolated like personal meaning out of that but like that's appropriate in the sense that you know it that's the fundamental value proposition but it's inappropriate in the sense that we thought that applied to investment and in the case of investment the way to to wait to accurately protect you know these make these decisions is to survey the crowd into to perform analysis of the pumpers and to project what the Keynesian beauty contest will return nobody takes this stuff off the exchanges that this inventory just sits there no one's ever gonna use any of this stuff it doesn't matter what the implementation is because all they're voting on is what is the most beautiful presentation of features to the next guy so that when I see this kind of stuff like it's very funny to me that the degree of rhetoric that goes into a quote unquote white paper that is only designed to like sort of cultivate an identity for this purpose there's just no greater sense there you know and and I think warm Buffett says in the short term markets are voting machines in the long term they're weighing machines everything I think that I've ever done certainly what I see for most of you guys has been weighing these propositions but weighing only works when white papers are of an academic nature when the white paper is of a marketing nature that's completely inappropriate now you have to decide with the voting mechanism is going to be for the market so yeah I think this really funny too is like nobody cares the tokens are for like I look at the like what is this with with with kick like I don't know what it's for but like they're creating scarcity that doesn't exist you have tons of messaging apps for which there's there's just no scarcity none and they're they're retroactively putting into their affinity scam what could conceivably be marketed as a scarce resource now maybe maybe they would say advertising space is scarce but they're not charging for it now and and so to say that the market needs to be created then where we have this sort of like presale of all receivables is just absurd and in fact it's also really weird that I'm waiting to see what happens and I got into this for Simon Dixon is as the project goes on your liabilities grow because you as a project leader now have to deal with the pissed off investors so when when kick announces that it's doing the size CO who who at kick is announcing it is that the CEO is at the marketing department is a dental department because what happens then is the clock is ticking for that guy to leave the company because what will never really happen is if you will get pissed off they'll be looking for somebody to blame that will result in maybe in his firing or at least on his professional resume the the you know the association with this scam is going to be poor so you're kind of like opening up the door for everybody that your company to leave that's related to this stuff and now you're going to hand this bag over to the principles the decision makers etc that are remaining and that's going to be very funny I think one of the questions too that's interesting here with the kick thing just kick me money like that's because that's kind of a story if that's true it wouldn't surprise me if that's true and and for me with this iCO stuff I've been saying for a little while it's very obvious if iCOs are continued unabated then every single company has to switch this model because it is a more efficient model of raising revenue seeing that there is no strings attached like you you could just go out there of course it's more efficient there's no regulation this is practically a Donald Trump seminar here you remove the regulation now you can do whatever you want maybe it's down the trees but again it's faster right building's faster absolutely but what you absolutely one last point i'll say on this too is that everybody it's very funny to me how the scaling debate went because there's all kinds of ins and outs we don't have to talk about it but the the Bitcoin problems are blockchain problems and I know that and maybe maybe you guys are on the side and maybe you think otherwise and we'll see but what's very obvious to me is that Ethereum is going to start having these limits if they're not already I think they're already at 60 cents of transaction so what happens now when you've been telling everybody that the Bitcoin scaling problem is like this Bitcoin thing meanwhile kick is going to go ahead and theoretically like charge for messages or something high volume who the hell knows at what is the kick price plus 60 cents in eath price one of two things is going to happen you know they'll centralize very likely in the case of Ethereum that they'll just do that but if they don't do that then all these projects going to move off quote unquote blockchain and into database which is where all this stuff belongs to begin with so that that should be the next step in some of these things if it gets that far which it may not all right next day everything old is new again I've got a MySQL database and some PHP I can sell you let's go to Gabriel D. Vine yeah Chris made some great points there you know most of the current wave of ICOs are scams like I said they're going to go belly up I think a lot of them will go belly up within 12 months but I'll stick to what I'm saying you know for the last three years I've been you know once I understood the potential of a distributed organization you know these cryptographic tools and consensus mathematical configurations can are sort of a glue or a bridge between social scaling and try out technological scaling this is a point that Nick Sabo has made and you know apt tokens with truly integrated networks and distributed ownership use models will become the new decentralized tech behemoths to replace Google and Facebook and even Apple you know on the hardware level 3d printing but less than 1% of the current ICOs will exist by the time that happens I think in 10 years we're going to see some of that starting up and maybe in early phases but this is definitely Wild West territory and the kick thing is just ridiculous it's it's completely stupid and Chris makes a great point about transaction volume that you know a centralized company utilizing a decentralized token you're going to hit that wall at some point and if your incentives don't line up like they don't for every centralized company your scheme will collapse now I'm not sure you saw it gave but they actually had an article in Coinbase where they said exactly what you said but they said now these companies will beat Apple they will beat Facebook they will beat Google do you believe the tokens have given them that much power or is this just ridiculous hubris hello it is ridiculous hubris no superpowers for them let's go to tone veys he's got an article ready hey so are we combining all the stories like the vineyard link him ICO the kick ICO the brave ICO are they all in one bingo you've got it okay good this is completely insane like I haven't even had time to look at vineyard link him ICO and like this is another reason why I don't think I'm going to I'm going to even like attempt to make any more friends with people in the space because the next thing I know they go ICO and now I have a conflict of interest you know objectively analyzing their project because I've already like become friends with the ICO Reggie middle turn did this to me now no no no they're all this to me like I like that's it it's like and I'm running out of friends in the space completely which I'm kind of okay with so I just tweeted out before the show I'm comparing because kick is like the first actual company with I don't think they have revenue but at least the actual company that people know and I'm comparing it to the Steve Madden shoe company if you guys saw the Wolf of Wall Street if you've seen the Wolf of Wall Street if you don't you have to watch the Wolf of Wall Street in fact I want to put together like a list of movies the recent movie gold wolf of Wall Street like all of those other movies and that shows you how out of control this insanity is getting like I found that the brave browser like when you look at the brave article right this here's a question can somebody answer this for me this is what the brave is seeking between four and 15 million a theorem what does that mean dollar side in front of it do you tell me what that can you can somebody just tell me that's the amount of Ethereum that they want to raise with their ether they mean ether do they mean ether or do they mean dollars worth of ether ether you show you're meeting Gabriel but yeah I know they want ether but of course you know you know they're gonna freaking immediately exchange most of that back for dollars well I know no no this is a big thing right because I don't want to tell you one one ether was worth two hundred dollars yesterday so are they looking for 15 million ether or 15 million dollars because that's a difference of hundred fifteen million dollars worth of ether I mean this is freaking insane and I heard the CEO of this talking about like these people are realizing that all they have to do is just I put out these ICOs I I think we talked about this enough in our previous topic I don't really know what else I can add to this I haven't read about Vinnie's project I'm trying to be a little less critical like with the Brock Pierce ICO like I think I'm yeah I think you just have to I don't want to meet like anymore people like everyone is like sending me their white papers right now this is crazy I have no time to read any of it and yeah I don't know what to say at this point I mean everyone is printing their own securities because they're mad at like Wall Street and that they're the problem that that this is I'm speechless I was like speechless at these conferences I didn't know what to say this reminds me of an old line from David Burns movie true stories where he says that metal buildings are the dream that architects had but they didn't know they're having it because you don't need an architect to set up a metal building these are securities for everybody the dream that everyone had and you don't need a Wall Street guy to set them up isn't it great time but and here's here's the crazy part though like this is why it's so hard to analyze these things right one your project itself may or may not be stupid in you know debatable like your idea can be debatable right then you have you creating your own quasi security quasi currency to pay your people with the security right I don't think that's actually debatable but that's the rage then you have the fact that you're building this thing anapazi which which is a theorem you're building it on top of a theorem which we all know is going to fork when they tried to go proof of uh proof of stake so it's like these are multiboling so even if your idea is good which is like maybe Brock Pierce and then you don't create it as a tradable currency slash security because it's fully tied to your fund you're still building it on top of a theorem which I think is ridiculous so and now you got to explain all three of these different facets on top of god those what else to a person trying to explain to them why the ICO is nonsense anyway I'll leave it there I'm actually gonna I do want to talk about the the the next topic which is most important so I'm gonna log in from my cell phone and take the show on the road all right one more comment from Christopher Rose is having one more thing to add yeah Tony I want you to hear this before you get up Tony this is really important in fact everybody should probably listen to this there's this fundamental property of blockchains in that the blockchain grows and we or stays stable depending on the capital inflow into the blockchain that capital inflow is is the money that you're throwing in there at any given time you got to keep this thing going in the case of Bitcoin we get that from sex drugs and rock and roll that's great no other blockchain has something that is as in elastic is that however the innovation of a theorem is principally that you you can create this Ponzi that is a theorem and it will amass the properties of all other Ponzi's these Ponzi's will contribute to it and it will grow as big as any Ponzi that that may or may not be what they succeed in but if if in fact they succeed in that that has major ramifications for Bitcoin I look at like brave for example is a perfect example of this brave I think was originally going to do a Bitcoin fundraise but the greater fools were in a theorem it needed that feature of the Ethereum blockchain in order to to grow so it attached the Ponzi that is brave to the Ponzi that is the theorem and the capital inflows coming to a theorem are growing with every one of these so like it may be the story I hate to be this way about it I really do but it may be the story of blockchain ends up being that the nature of blockchain is such that the not the speculative interests grow and grow and grow until you hit something like Ethereum whereby it could it could Ethereum could actually gain more speculative capital inflow than Bitcoin the size of the greater fools in speculative markets may exceed the fundamental value needs of sex drugs and roll so I agree if that's the case by the way the property of blockchain probably will be thereafter that blockchain doesn't work that you will have is a series of booms and busts in these low liquidity markets from here on out that would be my guess so I can't help I can't wait to write like the history book of the greatest Ponzi in the world the greatest bubble in the world being blockchain and let me give you let me go one deeper on you Chris in this case right yeah how many companies are now popping up to compete with the theorem for ICOs to put their Ponzi on top of their Ponzi right I mean root stock is trying to do it probably they're trying to do it in probably the most legit and honest way but then you have like all of these other ones like no like lists or waves or whatever they are or like what's the geonosis is it like like you have all of these aetherium copycats trying to convince these ICOs to do it on them and Ethereum classic wishes they were aetherium right now for all these ICOs to be built on them what we'll see what happens the innovations in Ponzi technology must like actually support a load here so what's going to be you know he's going to do that he could mind that you know how you say oh you're getting all of your money in round one no you're not because then you can do the same thing again on Ethereum classic and then you can do it again on root stock maybe maybe I mean that's the storage the storage of crowdfunding is hilarious because they made a community promise that they would not be releasing more than a certain amount of supply per year and they just threw out the window but like it doesn't seem to matter it'll be cares because like that is nonetheless a better beauty to invest in for the next guy then so it just doesn't matter you know like it's it's science free zone like whatever you can sell it a people fucking kill it I don't even I don't even mind if people like sell these things at this point like I just I lost I tried to police the space as best I could it was a stupid idea with you and so now I'm just like okay whatever I don't fucking care I lost you know all right move on I knew that's what I should have invested in Ponzi technology Ponzi technology it's got to Jeffrey Jones has a quick point go ahead yeah I mean I just definitely have to agree again I think you know Chris we've lost we've definitely lost um at this point we're we're the crazy people uh we are the crazy people who everybody points to and said haha I made a million dollars that from not listening to you guys and it's like all right you know that's fine that's great you know we've lost um uh really though uh it's the greed that's driving this right it's it's no longer any type of you know altrism or or or or sense of wanting to have a greater purpose no it's all about a greed and that's kind of what we're at right now so um you know we hope that that doesn't continue but just one final thing is that I just want to say that look if you got I really hope that more people criticize people over Twitter over you know over Reddit continue to criticize these ICOs continue to ask these people questions because here's what's going to happen you're going to get blocked and then you're going to realize oh wait a second why are they not answering my questions and why are they blocking all these other people asking all these questions there's a reason for that you know criticisms get blocked and you know like Chris says uh the only block that's what that's what block stands for and blockchain is a freaking block on Twitter so continue to to ask these people questions so you will find out more information and the people that will answer you you know definitely look into that don't just let them use buzzwords a little peer review people continue it continue asking questions and that's what I wanted to say don't worry sam wise we'll get the ring to mount doom one more comment Gabriel Devon yeah I'd like to welcome tone and Chris to the not giving a fuck side of the spectrum you know these people yeah gambler is going to gamble foos going to foo you know people speculators going to speculate if you can pass off the bag if you can pass off that hot potato pass the book before your next you know before your fellow man hey you know that's that's the free market it's going to keep happening and nothing you can do can stop it but perhaps a couple of shouts into the void we got 400 viewers here today you know maybe we can turn on just a few people not to be idiots and like I said before meritocracy you know when there there are going to be shakeouts and a lot of these people are going to lose their shirts and they're going to put the rest of money into bitcoin when it's underpinning a new financial system let's move on to the exit question which one of these ICOs would you invest in Jeffrey Jones oh my god I mean look first of all you know again we invest in what you guys want to invest in do your research and you know if you guys want to invest in these things great you know there is some people that are investing in all these and making money right like a shotgun approach and exactly we want to have that shotgun approach if you were in the dark alley and someone approach you with a gun which one of these three would you invest in it's all my god I can't even begin to and that would require me holding a theorem and that that right there would not allow me to sleep at the night so sorry it depends on the size of the gun crystal rose it's very easy as I understand the demographic for kick it's like kids right so it's like a kid's telegram or something so you're going to have the biggest idiots there so that's the number one place to put your money Gabriel divine none of the above tone of days that was a cop out sounds really quiet microphone closer maybe no shoot I mean it's like I just have to get a speaker from the phone is this better yeah it's better go ahead shoot I'm gonna have to go I can't hear you man you know we can't hear you but it sounds like you're saying Vinny Lingham and that's what I'd have to agree with the civic sounds like the best project but I liked it better when I thought he would use all of his connections to get VC the normal way seem really traditional to me decentralized identities the future all decentralized things will collapse their bullshit I just cannot put any money in anything built on top of a theorem so the only reason why Vinny wins that battle is because it's on root stock ah and let's move on to issue four the silver to chords 58 companies located in 22 countries with 83% of the hashing power a 5.1 billion dollar on chain transaction value and 20.5 million Bitcoin wallets have made the decision on segregated witness and the answer is yes Bitcoin miners including bit main have joined with DCG at all in an agreement that's reminiscent of the Hong Kong agreement segregated witness adoption at 80% down from 95% and a hard fork to two megabytes in six months crystal rose is this the end of the Bitcoin scaling debate has very sober created peace I doubt it you know like this whole thing was weird it just kind of came out of like left field after like months and months and months and months all of a sudden barrier decided to swing as big dick out and like slap everybody in the face and like fine maybe he can do that and that's okay if that's what he wants to do but I'm skeptical that it works that way in Bitcoin I really am it's a little bit bizarre for a number of reasons one of which is that like they agreed with this two megabyte block but like everybody should know at this point that like that's going to do nothing because you're gonna have a immediate backlog and and I think that's fine to be clear I think it's absolutely fine but like these people that are like arguing for are they're gonna have the same exact complaints coming up against the two megabyte block that they had at one because there's always going to be reason to put transactions in the blockchain and they haven't like figured that out yet so I don't know what that is other than some kind of concession Eric Lambroso I would even want to hear what tone has to say about that because I love him and he was in rare form at the conference and I like to know what he has to say about it I think this whole thing was probably rushed I understand where Barry's at because I hear this too all the time you don't understand for people that watch the show how often you get lobbied as a content producer lobbied every day all the time and I definitely see a lot of people having a problem clearing transactions but it's like the universe only makes so much bandwidth available you know I similarly tell your your local you know representative city representative that the highways too small and he'll look at you would be like yeah we all agree but we need to like make do because this is what like the function of you know limited resources has against us at the moment so that's the way I see it and I don't know like the whole thing was kind of weird and rushed I'm very skeptical that that'll change seg what would be wonderful it will be as a result of both the two megabytes and seg what will definitely have a significant space but then there's this sort of hard fork issue there could be tons of laws for somebody so like we could end up with our own version of like ETC if Roger Veer ends up unhappy and bit main decides that's a good time to wrestle control who the hell knows another crazy day in Bitcoin they did announce the main meeting but it was a bit of a Deus Ex mocking the way it all came together at the end really perfectly it was quite a surprise let's go to Gabriel T. Vaughan I don't agree that hard fork is really on the table here I've been convinced from the start that the entire talk of forcing or you know trying to meet in the middle about a hard fork is completely empty posturing just to try to push the butt to try to delay the inevitable and allow bit main and the and other miners using their hardware to take advantage of basic boost for longer there's no other explanation I've heard that is reasonable so they're just trying to push the ball down the down the road and you know avoid you know the inevitable seg with activation and deactivation of their of their cheat essentially not cheap but of their you know of their technology that they're using that's allowing them to mind more efficiently than their competitors they're just trying to try to get more Bitcoin and that that's how the market works and it's to be expected but you know of course they're going to do dirty tricks and use social engineering to try to get there but the thing that I think once again I kind of mentioned this before is this idea of investors from the corporate space and from FinTech trying to apply their philosophy to the Bitcoin world and watching them fall flat on their face it really goes to show what early days the Bitcoin ecosystem is still in that very silver at a long time crypto investor and entrepreneurs been in it probably five years ish possibly longer can that he can still make this rookie philosophical error that captains of industry can steer the ship of a decentralized system like Bitcoin unlike his brother Alan who I don't see him really chiming in he's a lot he seems a lot more savvy Barry has in my opinion always been the typical Wall Street fast-talking club you know I've seen him on TV he's got that he's got that you know MBA type of polish and but yet I thought he kind of understood the tech at least but this attempted coup to override the power of the nodes and users is to the first 100% clear sign to me that he actually has no fucking idea what he's really dealing with he's trying to force a corporate mindset onto a network um onto a network an ecosystem of equal peers it's not a corporation and it's just it's going to fail just like the Hong Kong accord did um so consensus in these systems cannot be forced it's not a representative democracy and it's not an authoritarian corporateocracy and so in light of that the name of the conference where it was presented is just so ironic because we're all in agreement and I would agree gave it's a conflict of styles we have the corporate style versus the more scientific open source style of Bitcoin and I don't want to get political again but we have a similar situation going on with Donald Trump he's bringing in what they call the corporate style to a more government style governments a different system these two things may be incompatible maybe very difficult to bring them together tone veys your thoughts on the recent piece of chords handed down from above all right guys how's my how's my volume sounds good you have your hand off the microphone it's working great all right excellent so I don't know what Eric Lombore also thinks because I didn't see him at the conference I didn't even know he was there there's just so many people there I did not run into Eric at all now it I think this is completely crazy and like no one from block stream not only did no one from block stream or any other core developers signed this thing they weren't even in the room they weren't even advised on this thing this is how insane this agreement is and two companies that I actually really like in the space signed it which kind of bothers me a little bit because I just read the article you know in prep for the show one of them is bit fury and one of them is unokcoin now I kind of understand from a business perspective why they would do it because but philosophically that makes no sense to me I couldn't I couldn't care less about any other company that signed it I just really really like those two in reality this is not only technically impossible this is like economically impossible because once segway was created as a soft fork even if there is a chance a chance that segway enlightening solve the problem the all all talk of a hard fork immediately go off the table any attempt to do a hard fork without allowing segregated witness and a lighting network to solve the entire problem any attempt to hard fork automatically results into Bitcoin that's it all of the core developers know this they all know this is and this is why it would be grossly irresponsible for them to even hint at agreeing to this stupidity now what I actually said to Adam back which I kind of regret is yeah sign the damn thing whatever promised them anything they want to just get segway in there and then that's it because we all know it's not going to to megabytes in hindsight that was a bad thing to say because then there will be you know actual fuel to add to the fire of people you know calling out core developers for something right so maybe you shouldn't do that like I would love to see like I will do it I will ruin my reputation like give me that piece of paper I will sign it I will promise you the two megabyte hard fork forget six months after I'll promise you a two megabyte hard fork um two weeks after segway officially is in I'll promise it to you that's fine and because you know what I don't care I'll ruin my reputation just to get segway in there and then I'm gonna say hi hi live thank you for getting segway in I mean this is this is like dumb beyond belief I'll just leave it there I don't know what all psychonatitis I think you're right Tony it is about the scientific aspect of this if we try segway and it works and lightning network works we don't need to double the block size uh Chris mentioned roads and it always comes back to roads for libertarians if we just keep making the roads wider we're not gonna have any cities anymore what we need to do is invent flying cars or invent self-driving cars we need to think outside the box here Chris did you have another point to add on that yeah one other thing I would say too that it's very interesting to me that I see uh in Barry's behavior here is that he is in the middle of like ICO fucking hurricane and for people that are completely untested in their claims of of what they're promising the the suckers out there are putting money into these ICOs as we discussed and I think that for him he sees Bitcoin now is being quote-unquote unable to compete what we all know is that Bitcoin isn't necessarily driven by by speculative capital inflow is there's a fundamental capital inflow um but I don't know that he can rectify that easily with with investors at this point not only because it's it's a hard thing for people to understand but be then you have to sit down as as Barry Silverton say yeah well basically uh this works because you know we facilitate gambling drugs prostitution etc so so when he comes into the table I think that like the perception is that Bitcoin isn't advancing fast enough because it's not moving on this model of chasing the Keynesian beauty contest so so I think there's a lot of the motivation for this and the other thing that's really important about this too is that like Roger Vier in my estimation of him has not figured out how the fundamental value of blockchain works either he's very much stuck on this speculative model and a lot of his understanding of blockchain is that we need to get more transactions in so that more people put more money in so that Bitcoin can grow and everything's happy because all we have to do is completely you know is double the amount of greater fools every year and then everybody's happy but that's of course unsustainable so when you see these types of things being heard through the door and such I think for me that's what I'm seeing at some level in terms of the motivations of those people and you know that's unfortunate because here we have a space now where I'm going to try to talk about this too much because I've been grappling this a lot you can see this on my channel like what responsibility do you have as a Bitcoiner now like because here you have this model whereby shit coins are destroying the performance of Bitcoin and the reason for that is because the SEC is regulating it is I would almost want to propose that the final question should be as a Bitcoiner is it your financial interest to pursue the SEC's regulation of the space seeing that these are the types of things that happen to your quote-unquote blockchain as a result of that lack of protection in fact they've even told can answer that we can't hear you anymore Tom we can't doesn't seem to be picking up the microphone on my headphones and I have to like literally be right at the phone is this better damn yeah and now as I speak about all right anyway um you're absolutely right Chris like at which point this has become like our obligation for the uh you know for the quality and I guess the success of Bitcoin to go up is to get the SEC to go after these bull affinity scams and uh you know illegal securities because thanks to Jason Cybert a Bitcoin is not a security according to the SEC or I guess one of the other regulators uh or a federal judge but um I was going to say another thing is um where um how can we how police the network not that I want to police the network but um a lot of people are suspecting that people like Roger and others and not camp have now heavily invested into old coins that it's in their financial interest not Bitcoin succeed that's really true for ease right so so Chauvin is it in your interest to call the SEC it might you actually convincing me that it might be like I never like commented on any of stuff but uh like at one point like that's the thing I'm telling you man if I don't know if you saw the video that me and Jason Cybert did on a theorem in explaining why it's an unlicensed unregistered security and um like at what point am I going to be like in serious you know uh you know should I get a little worried for my safety because if you know a theory of and Vitalik go down for being an unlicensed unregistered security and all of the things that I've said to prove that case on my videos it gets somehow referenced or I get pulled as like a witness for the case of a theory and being a security like at what point was it by you know did I assist in their you know assessment of a being a security right because if enough people scream to the SEC you have to do something they're gonna do something so the question is do should it be us that are screaming to the SEC that they need to do something or should we wait for all of these backholders to lose all their money and then blame Bitcoin because the only secure because the only crypto left standing um I'm putting right now I'm putting a tweet up I want everybody who's watching this on livestreamed away and it's a vote I want to know what the channel has to say uh so everybody and putting this in the channel here uh go ahead and vote on that and even retweet that um I won't let me do it so guys look at the Rose Tech and the top most tweet it won't let me paste it in go ahead and retake yeah you have to be you have to be the moderator you have to be the moderators to uh put a link in yeah go ahead and vote on that guys I want to hear what you have to say all right that's it move on all right we're going to Jeffrey Jones go ahead yeah so real quick I did paste the link in there except um okay looks like you did two Thomas okay so yeah just real quick lots to comment on lots to say so much has been said you know uh by the panelists really good stuff um I guess for me I got a few things to say so you know first uh you know Barry Silver uh Barry Silver's brother Alan has always seemed to get it right he's always seemed to be on the side of core and segway and things like that so I'm not sure why those two are so can't get on the same page but yeah that that is a big big difference between very silver and Alan so but actually talk to Alan a bunch or retweet a bunch of his stuff so you know the big difference they're definitely follow Alan's suburb it on twitter if you guys want some more information but yeah uh so this block size debate it's been going on for for a while now it's been going on for crazy apparently you know I really like to Chris said uh I'm not gonna repeat it but it's pretty funny how he wants to come in and you know and just uh take over everything and uh and clearly you as the panelists have said you cannot do that you cannot have centralized power in a decentralized system you cannot swing power uh the way that you want to uh like for example in a corporation or a company you can't do that uh in the Bitcoin community you can do that in theetherium right we've seen that before with the Dow you can do that in a bunch of these other coins and things like that but you cannot do that in Bitcoin and so this this particular deal you know was one of those backroom deals and you know it's just the differences though of course from this in the Hong Kong agreement that was at the in the Hong Kong agreement the developers were actually in the same room like you know there was actually some hope there for that but with this no developers were even consulted it was just very talking to these corporations and companies and all these companies that are benefiting you know probably behind doors from ASIC boost and things like that and jihon paying off various people here and there I mean look at they just invested in uh uh invested in um you know purse and uh few criticisms from that uh of course got me blocked by Andrew Lee the CEO of purse and uh it's it's it's crazy so I don't think it's going to work at all and we're definitely definitely not going to hard fork I mean again if they would have just consulted a single developer they could have seen that it's freaking impossible to have a hard fork in six months that is not going to happen it's probably not even going to happen in the next year Bitcoin uh you know especially what like as the panelists have said when we have a soft fork available we have a soft fork ready um that is that is ready to go uh with with segway now of course everybody's going to point to this agreement to be like segway isn't this what isn't this what everybody wanted isn't this the golden goose this is the greatest thing right but uh uh uh no because this freaking version of segway is ASIC boost compatible and therefore perfectly in line you know with with jihon moves plans uh for bit main and things like that so you we have to be cap we have to be careful and not let companies you know centralize too much in bitcoin you know the uh the the incentives and the game theory have been such that it's been doing a pretty good job but with ASIC boost and bit main running 70% of the you know the hashing power their their hardware running 70% of the hashing power and with amp Lee I mean we can see some cracks here we can see some cracks uh the and what we can really do is eliminate these cracks with a soft fork with segway with a segway if we can do that then we can crush asic boost we can we can make it back to an even playing field and and the game theory can continue uh working on with its incentives uh this is this is um this backdoor room deal was created by companies it was not created by end users and it's not going to happen so what we're looking for right now basically uh the most likely scenario is a user activated software coming august first uh this is coming i've you know a lot of people are seeing this it needs to get more attention so definitely start talking about this uh because this is coming you know there's a lot a lot of people who have changed their hand along twitter uh to raise some awareness for this user activated software uh i have done so as well um just to try to uh remind people that hey this is coming august first this is basically our best bet right now to get segway in this is our best bet to get segway activated and um you know we cannot let these miners be playing these games any longer now that's what the people in the chat want us to talk about user activated software we talked about it seems like months ago we talked about scaling all the time Jeffrey what is the user activated software what will happen if the miners vote right so i mean basically there's all sorts of i guess thements right nobody actually knows what's going to happen but we do know that this is that the actual user acted activated software is coming right you can't change that it's programmed in there's 10% of the network at least signaling for it right now so that's going to happen um it only takes one right to actually initiate the software so it's it's going to happen um the way that the code is described um as far as the outcome it's anybody's guess what's going to happen all we can do is recommend to people uh that they do uh support this user activated software namely the exchanges and while it's make sure that they're prepared uh we only need one exchange you know to to be prepared and user activated software will go and so that you know if there will be more coins right this is going to you'll have your regular coins and use user activated software coins and so it's going to get a little hairy it's that's why i sent them calling for a price correction you know when this happens this is going to freak people out this is going to scare people but at the end of the day this is Bitcoin this is the this is what goes on in Bitcoin this is the craziness that you have signed up for to be in Bitcoin Christopher Rose same question user activated software how serious is this should i go get my hat near the hat man yeah i know i somehow i don't i don't have the hat i mean you as if it's had a lot of support in the community the problem i think i have with it is that the actual details like like it was said are very murky and it applied since um i don't i i i haven't actually weighed in on it yet and i probably should so maybe i'll build a suspense on that um but you know in theory at least attracted to it and i understand what the allure is um it's it's a major deviation i think from anything we've really done prior in terms of these sorts of things and now that buries weight in on this whole thing the whole thing is murky or still i don't have a good answer on that that's as good that could do now i always liked it before i liked it as a political statement user should run things you know and i don't really mean it i mean it more like user should have some kind of vote like segwit sounds pretty good to me as a user so i would put on the hat and i would vote for that but now it's starting to get like we're actually going to do it and we're going to do bit 148 we're going to do bit 149 and the developers are like yeah i'm not so sure with that one i mean is there any way we could get like a Greg Maxwell approved user activated soft fork what what's the problem with that i got it anybody i don't i don't speak for Gregory Maxwell but um i mean i i can i can guess what his his intentions are i mean i think about bitcoin is that it's always it's like Gregory Maxwell is like the you know the the federal reserve chairman of bitcoin so like he's always going to be the most conservative person that is his job and he's actually made conservative statements about uasf yeah um so yeah i don't exactly know what specific intentions are but like in terms of the actual plight sense i just it's very hard for me to see this working in like a very like lockstep capacity in part because i think that you don't you know the way to some people's votes are like much more significant than others like bit mains vote is probably more important seeing how much hash power they control than others and like it's easy to say that the users can activate this and i get that but um it isn't that simple i think there's a spectrum of risk so like i don't know the things there's no road map here that's the thing nobody told us how to do this so everyone wants to guess but the penalties are large for getting getting things wrong and you know it's some of these extraordinary changes like it's just i it's it's hard i don't know i think we have to talk about the underlying issues here if there's a cartel if there's a cartel and they're not talking to us reasonably about the technical problems don't we have to go to Greg Maxwell is Gandalf and sit down at his knee and say we need your help we need to do this thing we need to force the cartel's hand and block this asick boost we need to get rid of the ring can we do it Gabriel Devon you know i was surprised that bit 148 chose uh date that's so soon i thought they would choose you know one day after um the current bit you know expired if it doesn't get activated by x percentage of hash power then the user activated software will activate um i was a little surprised that they were like forget it we're just going to jump the gun um on that and you know i think i think some you know private businesses and projects were kind of timing their development schedule based on that november date as as kind of a hard deadline to be done and ready to go with uh you know a 1.0 of their seguit support so i think that it seems a bit fast but on the other hand in my opinion the true value of the uasf just like the true value of any proposals to change the hashing algorithm and to fork away from the current you know shot 256 is primarily as a threat against any you know user patient of power in the system by mining cartels so in my opinion uasf primarily functions as a check uh and need not actually ever really activate in order to achieve that function well that's where i am with it if it's a political thing on for it but if the users are actually running things i'm not really for that i think we should get a vote we should get a say but i don't know if we should get all of it let's go to the exit question force prediction the chords will activate seguit will be adopted at 80% and bitcoin will hard fork to two megabytes in six months christiros yes or no no gabriel divan absolutely not never six months is way too soon they'll never be ready for it's completely ridiculous on a on its face technically and then socially politically it'll also never happen but six months never there will not be a hard fork i think seguit will uh somewhere or other be activated before 2019 jeffrey jones us bitcoin is not going to hard fork it's never it's really probably never ever going to hard fork again at this point uh with the amount of momentum and stuff and money that's in it so it's it's um no never never going to happen but i love a good ds x machina and i favor the Greeks even when they bring gifts let's add a bonus issue we're about two hours into the show let's get things really dark the ultimate application of bitcoin beyond as chris as wisely said sex drugs and rock and roll the chat says is assassination markets is this the new dap the ability to kill anyone is this what they're really advertising for is this the next token christiros it it would in fact be a example of a dap that i would say offers a market efficiency uh with a real good funding or not i would say absolutely not because nobody in this fucking space wants to do disruptive applications because they're really disruptive a ross obrecht perhaps of the dark death silk road and again i'm just getting all these horrible twilight zone science fiction things you put a bounty on your friend because you're upset with him he puts a bounty on you they both go higher and higher and pretty soon you're both dead gay real divine are we going to kill all of everyone with assassination markets i assassination markets already exist in essentialized form uh they're probably not that widely used yet but they're certainly out there uh i have never actually logged on to one or made an account but if as a journalist i think that's probably an interesting project and you should look into it if you are doing that kind of investigative journalism and uh certainly um open bizarre too is essentially an assassination market so watch out and let's all remember the lesson of Kurt Vonnegut juniors excellent book cats cradle in cats cradle the Marines came to the scientists and they said we have a problem everywhere we go in the world there's all this mud and we have to fight in the mud we don't like the mud and the book also talked about how humans came from the mud and then the scientists say hey we'll come up with ice nine ice nine will get rid of all your problems it'll freeze everything no more mud but that was another problem because the humans were also mud Jeffrey Jones can we get rid of all the mud? No man this is this is this is the fun part of a decentralized network is we all get to play in the mud all the time and everyone if you like these dark thoughts and highlight some ideas you should check out black mirror on Netflix very dark shows this is not a paid plug just a good show uh we're running out of time we're way over time we're going to the exit question of the show Christopher Rose are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week go ahead oh man um I don't know if I mean I'm my time has been spent on this Jared Kushner thing lately so I I would say my prediction is that Jared Kushner sees no ramifications as a result of the is that the Senate investigation committee uh currently investigating it that that would be my prediction is that a valid one I don't know I'm gonna go the exact opposite way and I should say Jared Kushner should lawyer up lawyer up Gabriel Devon my story of the week is the great decentralized exchange software bit square they are gearing up for their version 0.5 release where they're finally going to be crushing the last really a problem with their software which was they didn't have dynamic fee calculations so that caused them a lot of issues during times like now where the fees go up but once they have dynamic fee calculation I think it's going to be a really great alternative for everybody uh even though it's still got limited liquidity now I think that will change so that's pretty exciting time still usable software now a little bit glitchy here and there but um highly recommend anybody looking for alternate on and off ramps with from Bitcoin and back and forth to fiat as well as altcoin trades back and forth. Gotta have those dynamic fees Jeffrey Jones. Oh sorry was uh was the question story of the week or prediction we've made it to the end story of the week oh man yeah I guess I've been following consensus I've been following all these things I I guess I don't really have a story of the week other than this freaking crazy ICO madness the week is finally over um we can all take a break Bitcoin is now correcting um it's time for everybody to take a break and enjoy the weekend. Enjoy your weekend yeah it's a good story of the week reminds me of someone else used to say something like that said the deep deep Jackson from the fucking news you'd always say uh or you say the world the planet is fucked and have a nice weekend um but uh I just wanted to put a thank you out there to the community I had some great tweets this week and Dres tweeted out my patreon and people started signing up for my patreon so if you'd like to do that you can do that at patreon.com slash madbitcoins also at madbitcoins.com if you want to donate Bitcoin if you like the shows that we do here you want to put a donate out there it's totally voluntary and I'd just like to thank the support of the community we had 480 live viewers today that's amazing must be some kind of record we're getting close to 500 and of course subscribe to the world crypto network and like this video uh check out christ deros's videos at bitcoin uncensored we've got Jeffrey Jones the bitcoin news show and Gabriel devines even going to make some more future rant shows here on the world crypto networks of stay tuned to this channel and thanks for joining us at home in the chat we're going to go scroll through uh what we're able to save and see what you said uh so thanks so much for giving us a like and a comment and a share all those things but it's been over two hours at least and we're running out of time until next time bye bye