The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists. Theo Goodman from HASS online. Good evening everyone. Gabriel Devon from Future Rant. Say again. Hi everyone. Thanks for having me. Toned Vays from Liberty Life Trail. Hello everyone. Jeffrey Jones from the Bitcoin News Show. I have a camera today so apologize about that but the show will still be just as amazing. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network moving on to issue one. Forking Bitcoin. Following last week's news that AntMiner has joined Bitcoin Unlimited, raising its hash power to 30% and increasing the chances of a Bitcoin fork. And events similar to the Ethereum fork, where Bitcoin would split into two incompatible chains, with users now holding tokens on both chains. This news sent the Bitcoin price spiraling all the way to 1077 before recovering to the 1150 to 1180 range. And now descending again. This price decline may be exacerbated by today's news that nearly 20 Bitcoin exchanges have created contingency plans in the event of a fork. Theo Goodman will Bitcoin split into two and will it be good for Bitcoin? It looks more and more likely that there will be some kind of fork. Whether it will be good for Bitcoin, well that we'll just have to see. Probably it will be overall. But it could be a rough road as we saw with the Ethereum fork and then the result of having Ethereum and Ethereum Classic. We could have the scenario where we have BTC and something referred to as BTU. Now what happened with the exchanges in their statement, they have said that they will run both software as two separate chains to keep BTC and BTC separate. And they will regard BTU Bitcoin unlimited as a so-called new asset. Well, what's that mean? Well, that's a nice way of saying Altcoin, Shitcoin or in 2017 as we call it, BOTEK. So in this case, BTU is quite a fitting ticker name, BOTEK unlimited. And it's a two for one sale, ladies and gentlemen, because as long as you hold your Bitcoin private key on software that you have control of, not Bitcoin on an exchange or another third party, then in the event of a fork when you have your keys then, then you'll be able to get BTU and BTC. So you get double the bang for your buck in the event of this case, of this fork. So we'll have to see if that's good or bad. Of course, generally speaking, people looking at code, people going over code, people trying things, that's all good. Okay? That's all good for Bitcoin. Being divisive using astroturf methods of social media, propaganda and all this kind of stuff, it's probably not beneficial in the long run. So there's some parts of what's going on that are good and there's some parts of what's going on that are not good. There's also a distraction of the technical aspect that a lot of people are concentrating on as a reason for the fork, but I'm not sure that that is the main reason. There could be other reasons. So such as just people don't like each other, people don't want to have control, etc. All you have to do is take a look at the BTU articles of confederation in which there is a president, secretary and other and mining pools as well. And those people have to be identified publicly. Okay? So that's a big difference in structure than what we currently have or you don't have to be known publicly. So that is not a technical aspect as far as code or blocks, etc. etc. That's a different thing, but that's what I mean. There's more than one aspect to it. So I think everyone would love to have cheap, free transactions. I don't think that's going to be a reality, but I mean, who doesn't want free stuff, but that's not the world we live in. The things are not free. They will cost whether we could reduce the mempool size and all that kind of stuff. Sure, that could be things. There's different solutions. Some people think that BTU is a solution and they're going to go along with the fork. Personally, I'm kind of tired of hearing about it. So just do it. Put up or shut up at this point. It's enough. Let's just get this done. Put it behind us, fork it. We'll have our two coins. We'll sell them. Buy and sell them. They'll be the market. Everyone's talking about the market should decide. Let the market decide. Then fork it. Let's do this. Excellent point, Theo. You're absolutely correct that if you hold Bitcoin not on an exchange, you will get coins on both sides of the fork. If you hold those coins, you're just kind of betting on both. If you take your coins and dump them into one pile or dump them into the other pile, you've made your bet. So you can stay equal or you can go with both. It's open to everyone. They just like to thank our 120 or so live viewers and ask everyone at home if you could give us a thumbs up. This helps us spread to more YouTubers and give us a share. Gabriel D. Vine, your thoughts about the fork. No I don't think that Bitcoin unlimited will fork. I believe that the hack a couple of days ago where a very simple and obvious bug that had been reported to the Bitcoin unlimited team several days ahead of time is a lethal blow to Bitcoin unlimited. It drastically lays bare the price that you pay for having less eyeballs on your code. Even if the Bitcoin unlimited developers were as skilled as Bitcoin quarter developers, which is very doubtful, just because there are so many fewer checking out the code, just because there were so many fewer developers looking at that Bitcoin unlimited code, it means that as Andreas Antenopolo said, it's many orders of magnitude less secure than the Bitcoin core code base. Miners are starting to lose face now. The ecosystem, the community at large, Bitcoin, movers and shakers, thinkers, holders, holdlers are now drastically losing their face in the mining community who aren't signaling for Segwit and especially the ones who are either false signaling for Bitcoin unlimited or whatever or really signaling. Bitmain is losing a huge amount of face right now in this community. Now there will be a large push to move away from Bitmain, even though they provide 70% of the chip manufacturing according to latest estimates, I think there's going to be a big move away. I've seen, I believe it was Ansel talking on Twitter about how the rising price acts as a decentralizing force in the chip manufacturing, not exactly sure how the economics of that work out. If anybody on the panel knows, I'd love to hear it. Ansel's tweets are incredible. You guys got to follow Ansel in there, they're very, very sharp. So I don't think there's going to be a fork. There's just not enough support. Most of the support is fake. This is obviously total crap code and if you're a miner running it, you're taking a huge risk. It's really stupid. I mean, you're going to miss out on income. It's a bad economic choice for you. So this is quite a transparent takeover attempt by some mining interests and in my opinion, hidden interests who want to see Bitcoin collapse. And it's completely backfired with this recent hack. And I'm sure there will be plenty more where that came from. Because there's a lot of people both sides trying to insert vulnerabilities into the code base. There's just far, it's extremely difficult to do that with Bitcoin core. And I'm just going to point out that Luke Parker's recent article on Medium called Why Bitcoin Unlimited Sure Correctly Be Classified as an attempted robbery of Bitcoin out of four. The point is comparing the forking of software to the forking of the Bitcoin or of a coin, crypto coin blockchain. The comparison is that nobody really in the history of open source software who forks a software project and makes basically a fork in that sense is a copy of the code base that then you alter on your own. They always choose a different name. They don't try to take over the name, the parent. I really think that's completely species. It's not particularly relevant. While I do actually think that Bitcoin Unlimited is trying to hijack the Bitcoin community, I think it's quite obvious. The arguments are completely transparent. It's ridiculous. I can see maybe the point of say, what are they called? The Web of Trust guys to gather around Mershapopescu, they're the sort of arch conservatives of the coin space. They're against both. That's a much more tenable position to support, logically speaking. You could definitely make the point that Blockstream is also compromised. It's got a bank that gave them the VC. Gregory Maxwell has a history of entrangeage and behavior in previous projects such as Wikipedia. He actually convinced a lot of core developers that small blocks were necessary for Bitcoin. It's a lot easier to make the point that both sides are attacks. If you're going to say one's an attack, Bitcoin Unlimited is obviously an attack. However, saying that they want to keep the Bitcoin name and comparing blockchain forking to software project forking is in my opinion, species. There are two totally different things. Software forking is not an economic process of putting, yes, in a Git commit setting. You're making one commit after the other in kind of similar to blocks. You can take a software project and do what Ethereum did and do a hard fork back. You can say, oh, this didn't work at all. Our latest release sucked. We're going back and we're going to fork from there, no big deal. As if you try to do that with a blockchain, it's unidirectional. You've just fucked everybody that did transactions after your fork point. It's a species comparison. I don't agree that you can say, oh, because nobody ever in history of open-source software has ever tried to take over a parent project's name. Bitcoin Unlimited trying to do that is now doing the first thing. It's not being jerked. No, that's not true because when a chain forks, blockchain forks, both people have the same history at that point. They can both try to claim claim. In the case of Ethereum, Ethereum was actually making the new project, but they had more social clout. They were able to steal Ethereum names. That sense looks totally wrong. It's been done before. Ethereum did it. Ethereum Classic had to take a different name because they had a smaller community, smaller minor, less clout in the community. I don't think they were going to be fork. I do think that in general, the dangers of forking are a little exaggerated. They're real. A lot of them are social and perceptual. Vinny Lingham is very, very point out that hardly anybody knows anything about Bitcoin in the big money space. They're going to be making their decisions based on general perception. A fork sounds bad and dangerous. They're going to stay on the sidelines. I agree with that. In the long term, I think dangers of forking are a bit exaggerated. I think a fork can happen without too much drama. Or obviously, it's going to get the Bitcoin name after a contentious hard fork. Somebody else will have to have a different name. I'm kind of with Theo on that where it's like, bring it on at a certain point. See what you can get. Full cell off the new chain. I don't think there will be a contentious hard fork as contentious as Ethereum. In that case, it would still about a 10-to-1 Bitcoin will never see a fork more powerful than say 25-to-1. Excellent point, Gabe. I'm just going to go ahead and disagree with you on that article. I also read Luke's article and I thought it was very apt. I thought what's interesting this time is that Bitcoin Unlimited does want the name. It is different than an open source project. What happened this time is those Bitcoin and Bitcoin Unlimited share the blockchain. They share this record of transactions. As we've said earlier, that Bitcoin Unlimited, when they fork, if they fork, everyone's going to have coins on both chains because they are literally taking the history with them. Whereas Litecoin was kind of a copy of Bitcoin, it didn't take the blockchain with it. It didn't take the old transactions. It is a very interesting thing where the shared history is being copied. It is being split up. It's like a divorce. It's a very complex situation. I don't think we've seen it in open source software before, but I thought it was a good idea to go back and go through that history. To say that in the past, it's always been a competition. Are we open to a competition with Btu and Bitcoin Segway or Core or whatever we're going to call it? I am. I like competition. I'd like to see it. Certainly, nothing we could do to stop it on either side now, but we're going to just have to see how it goes. Again, everyone should check out that article by Luke Parker, which I had to get some quotes. Just a quick note on that. I agree that Litecoin is much more like a traditional open source software fork for sure. The blockchain is kind of like a separate forking layer on top of the software. One thing that just hasn't been mentioned yet is that a lot of people believe that if Bitcoin were to fork, it would cause a bit of a panic in the short term. The general thought is that the overall price of both coins that are created at that, the new coin and the old coin would be less than the price of Bitcoin before a contentious hard fork. That's what people are worried about. It's like, even if you sell the coins down the chain that you don't like, you still end up with less value because there will be so much of a sell off due to panic. Yeah. Also worth noting, I totally forgot, let's go to its own face. I don't know if that's true. That's the general perception. I don't, maybe not. Maybe it wasn't. I did remember, Gave had mentioned the miners and how as the price was going up, the fees were going up. The miners were making more and more money. There was no incentive for them to adopt Segwit. Perhaps this misaligned incentives left us to this point where there's been a year or two or maybe even more of this scaling debate that we can't seem to finish partially because of these misaligned incentives. So that that was a good point worth raising. Let's go to tone veys, your thoughts on the potential Bitcoin fork. Well, actually, Thomas, you just now raised the point that was going to raise about the fees going up benefiting the miners. But before I get to that, I also have something to pick on for Gave. Can you please inform me and the audience which bank is funding block stream? I just closed the window. I know. I had that information. Yeah, go ahead. AXA, AXA. It's a French bank that's also mostly well known for their insurance. Exactly. So this is the worst fund I have ever seen in anything relating to Bitcoin. I'm sure it's worse when it comes to politics. So out of the $75 million or $100 million that block stream raised, some portion of that money came from a financial company called AXA whose main line of business is life insurance. I don't know how a life insurance company that happens to have an investment division, whether that investment division is simply in speculative technology or in technology that can potentially be useful to the main line of business to AXA is you have to ask them. But I don't understand how a life insurance company suddenly become the evil bankers funding Bitcoin to take over Bitcoin. Like of all the financial aspects, I would think life insurance and they're having an interest in Bitcoin being interesting when it comes to passing on your assets or preserving wealth in case of death of all the financial aspects of things. I would think that would be at the top of my list of potential reasonable investors from the world of finance. So I really hate that fudge that the bankers are, don't mean to pick on you Gabe, but not that you know the great point. Not that you notice an explanation. You just wanted to point that out. Yeah, I appreciate that for sure. That's an excellent point. And it's easy to pick on block stream because they have a lot of money and they don't seem to talk at all. We haven't seem to hear anything from them. We hear very little bits. I wish they talked about CEO and back is on Twitter constantly, but his tweets are some of the most of streus in the Bitcoin space. You have to be at a really expert level to understand what he's doing. He's got this extremely terse sort of computer scientist way of tweeting that is almost impossible to understand. And I don't want to get all political, but we can all agree that 180 characters of a tweet is not the same as a long article. 40, 40, you're giving it. 140, what's better? I think that's 140. Yeah, I know my bad, but yeah, the short length of a tweet, we're often missing evidence. We also wish we had follow ups, maybe a video or an audio or just a lot of text. We just want to hear more. We want to hear more. All right, so let me just back in here real quick. So another point of contention, people have to understand what block stream is, right? Block stream is just one of three to four organizations that decided to take on the responsibility of paying some developers full time so that they will continue working on the Bitcoin code. And they all and but they decided to work together. There's like three or four companies. Block stream just happens to be the biggest. Block stream also happens to have the most money so they can pay more money to the better of the developers working on the Bitcoin core code. That they're probably funding my best guess is 10 to 12 full time core developers plus some funding for additional stuff and other companies are funding other full time core developers. Now another point of contention that Roger likes to bring up is well, block stream raised like 75 million dollars or whatever and look, they're not even holding it in Bitcoin. He's like making fun of them for not holding it in Bitcoin. And I inquired about this and what I found out is they're not holding it in Bitcoin for legal reasons because there are a US company. They're a legit US company that has to preserve the assets for the investors company. They first of all, they can't hold it in the speculative asset because that will go against the rules of like certain regulations. And then consider that's why half of their funding disappeared when the price of Bitcoin fell and blockchain would have to completely reorganize their company as a hedge fund in order to keep that money in Bitcoin. I'll show you make sure you guys didn't freeze on me because Thomas isn't moving. Okay, there you go. I had a little sound issue but I think it's still running. Okay, good. So, so that's my little thing on, I'm watching. I don't want to repeat anything you guys said. So I'm going to try and like point something new out. Thomas already beat me to it a little bit. And at this point, you guys are absolutely right when you said that Bitcoin is now going to be on the wrong side. Like users are going to start to have a deep hatred towards an pool. And from their perspective, they're super-specif. Right now for the big miners, especially if you are a big miner, you are loving the high fees. Notice to your advantage, not to change anything in Bitcoin as the fees go up. If you are going to try to scale Bitcoin, you're going to try and scale it in the most inefficient way to continue making money from the fees that will give you more control. And Bitcoin unlimited actually works for an pool. And also, I still believe that creating a larger block would create an advantage for the anyone that might, the previous block. Because now people need to validate a two megabyte block that takes longer to move through the system. It also reduces the number of nodes that need to keep that data. So it starts to centralize Bitcoin. And the less nodes we have, the more power goes to the miners. So going to Bitcoin unlimited would literally centralize Bitcoin more to the big miners. And like we said earlier, if Bitmain is responsible for 75% of the chipset, this would give a monopoly to Bitmain. I don't know why Roger wants this, but clearly that's what he wants. My other point of contention is that Roger has already openly bought old coins. I have not done that. I am sticking to Bitcoin. So now we're in a situation where Roger's incentives are completely misaligned. Of course, with the price going down, basically if the price of Bitcoin falls to 500 or even 200, Bitmain is going to have a big impact. A bit of a problem because yeah, they're enjoying the high fees, but the reward isn't there anymore in terms of value. And they lose the Bitcoin dies. I believe everything dies because the rest of the coins just don't have any use cases other than speculation. But Roger has now diversified into old coins. And I mean, I wish he moved all of his money to dash because I know dash is a scam. But I don't even understand why that's still debatable today. So as Roger becomes more and more invested in these old coins, Roger will financially be incentivized to kill Bitcoin. So now he's dashed Jesus and Monero Jesus and what else is he in Z cash Jesus and probably Ethereum, right? Because he can be the richest person in those coins as well if he is diversifying his Bitcoin positions into those coins. And again, he, the problem with, I don't want to bring on the fork. And the reason I don't want to bring on the fork is because Roger has the domain Bitcoin.com along with a lot of other media and a lot of resources. So it's not as easy to say like I'm really, really glad that the exchanges have taken the lead and have said that Bitcoin unlimited is going to be on old coin. We need wallets through the same thing. And I'm afraid that the media reach of Roger and that crew is going to make it very difficult and it's going to be challenging. They're going to try to push that they are the legit Bitcoin fork. I also don't believe that it will actually fork. But if it does, that would be the situation. One final note in that, oh man, I had it in my head a second ago. Give me one second. I just have one more point on this. I know this topic is already going on very, very long. Or maybe you jump back to me after Jeffrey Jones. I had one more minor point. So I'll do it. It's also worth noting that Roger does own Bitcoin.com, a very valuable piece of real estate if we're going to argue over who owns Bitcoin. Let's go on to Jeffrey Jones. Well, first of all, today is the day Bitcoin unlimited died and became the altcoin known as BTU. Okay, let's get that out of the way first. Getting bad actors like Roger out of the space really is arguably a good thing. His toxicity has reached the limit and Bitcoin is literally spitting him out at this point. By literally spitting him out, I mean actually tell all the exchanges coming together and classifying it as a separate asset, aka an altcoin. The others have said, I really don't think that it's going to fork either. I just don't think they'll ever get enough hash power to actually do this. But if they do do this, even with Bitcoin.com, he's still not going to have enough of the technical following. His coin will fail because as it's already has proven, and I have a bug that will just destroy it. Destroy confidence in it. People will move to the coin that is tested, that takes a year to put out an actual update because it's of testing in QA. That kind of stuff doesn't worry me too much because again, this is software, not so much politics. Software at the end of the day is going to win out when it's software that keeps the actual politics going. It also appears that the actual BU devs actually have no intention of adding replay protection. This is absolutely ridiculous. If they don't do this, there is going to be a whole lot of people trying to exploit this on all sorts of different things. Here's the bigger news. The exchanges actually said in their document that they will not even list this coin unless they actually have replay protection. If it does fork and they have no replay protection, they're not going to get listed anyway. There's just so many things against BTU and that is called consensus. Basically all of consensus is against it. Here's another funny little statement. The actual Bitcoin unlimited statement on Bitcoin talk is actually listed in the altcoin section category, which I think is absolutely hilarious. They're not even going to list it in the main part of the Bitcoin talk site. Another important point is that all of these latest features, like lightning, network, and snore, signatures, and masks, and all of these amazing things, tumble bit, all of these awesome technologies are always going to work first on the actual Bitcoin chain, the CORE has already moved on to 0.14. They have so many more features coming. It's just going to be ridiculous. There's just nobody that's going to stand behind this to have enough hash power. If it does, the fork will lose value. Andreas and Tenoppel has pointed out, it's pretty impossible for an actual blockchain to die because you just need one node and one miner just still keeping that thing going, spinning it up. It really is difficult to actually kill the chain. As Ethereum and ETC Classic has pointed out, there can still be value, even if it's only worth a dollar. Even if it's only worth a dollar, we're still talking millions and millions of dollars. If this actually happens, if this comes to pass, this will take down the price of Bitcoin. It will drop it down to the 7 and 800s, and it will take us another year to recover. We might even go sideways for a year. Meanwhile, during that entire time, these developers at Core and other places, like the network yours and other different companies, will have their heads down coding. They will continue to program this. They will continue to make their lives work because there's just nothing else like it that has ever existed in the planet. I also want to end this with reassuring the hotlers out there that Bitcoin is not going anywhere. You have four, you still have both coins. All you have to do is hold. This is just a lot of fear mongering for people who are just getting to the space. At the end of the day, this is all going to be resolved for the end user, and they won't have to worry about much. That's about it. Excellent points, Jeff. I also wanted to mention, as you said, Btu has been declared an altcoin. We all remember the famous censorship argument of Roger Ver, that our Bitcoin was censoring Bitcoin unlimited. He should be able to talk about it there. As I recall, the famous argument was pretty simple that Bitcoin unlimited is an altcoin, and we don't talk about altcoins on our Bitcoin. Whether that's pedantic or semantics or whatever or not, he stuck to that. Theimos 100% stuck to that. Roger fought him, screamed censorship, all that. Jeffrey, do you think Roger owes theimos an apology for being right the whole time? Yes. First of all, that's an excellent point, Thomas. Nobody got up. Thomas is BBMe to the point. I'm just saying it's funny, because I've been saying this on Twitter. I even had a poll. Actually, most people thought that my poll, only 50 people who responded, actually said that, you know, they wasn't right. But seriously, it's looking more and more like he's right. I've been saying it from the beginning that he was 100% right in declaring that anything other than talking about Bitcoin and other things like that is an altcoin. It is. There can be different implementations, like Bitcoin and all these awesome things. But at the end of the day, there has to be one chain, one supporting structure, and that is core, because core represents developer consensus. This is all the consensus of over 100 different developers, the smartest people on the planet working together. So yeah, it just absolutely good point, Thomas, that Thaemus was, in my opinion, 100% right for doing what he did. And I think we're saying that now. And I've actually said that. I know. I've been saying it throughout the whole time, and I've even said it to Roger on my Roger. There is a rule that Thaemus has always followed. He followed it with Bitcoin XT. He followed it with Bitcoin Classic, and he's going to follow it with Bitcoin Unlimited. And I mean, there certainly wasn't argument that he was too harsh, or he stuck to the rule too long, or whatever it was. But it can't fault him for sticking to the rules that they made. Can you? I mean, and so here's what I was going to say, because when we guys were talking about, well, these exchanges need to have to, need to keep both chains. I mean, it sounds easy for us, right? But look at it from their point of view, right? When you have an exchange like Bitfinex, which is fairly big and is making money, even though they still owe money because they got hacked, they may have the developers and the resources to get it all done. But now let's talk about Wallets. So Roger funds a blockchain that info, which I think is one of the worst wallets in the space. But it is the most popular wallet, and they sure as hell have the funding and the development to be ready for everything. My favorite wallet is AirBit, which barely makes any money. I don't even know how they're making money. It's a tiny developer team of like three or four people creating what I think has been my most stable and most trusted wallet. It's not easy for them to provide you with both coins because they're basically now supporting two forks. They're not even fully ready for seg with yet because that requires developer time because they're not sure that seg with is actually going to happen. So how does a small wallet like that drop resources into developing for something that may or may not happen? Of course they will be ready for it in time when it comes to that, but you have to remember that people are going to go in demand their second set of coins and they may not get that second set of coins because not everyone has their resources to get it done. Does this like they magically appear? Anyway, so that's another thing I wanted to say. And finally, so here's the good part. So there's two good parts to all of this. Even though it's really like frustrating the hell out of me, the two good parts is one. All of the people working on Bitcoin Core probably are now working together in unison and instead of fighting a month themselves on what's actually the optimal path for Bitcoin. So this fight against Bitcoin unlimited has, I'm sure has united all of these hundred people in core that probably had other contentious opinions within themselves, but this got them all on the same page. Another good thing is Bitcoin unlimited is so incompetent as a competitor to segregated witness that they don't actually have to deal with any competent lift to scaling. And this allows them to work on continue working like like like vortex said, continue working on things after segwood and if segwood is delayed, then those other things are going to be even better when it's time for them to work. All right, let's go to Jeffrey Jones for one more point. Yeah, just I just want to bring up one final point and it's more like food for thought. This was brought up by whale panda, but you know on Twitter, but basically like if you look at who who is in the actual BTU camp, I mean, they have so much to profit from an actual stalemate, right? Because they're invested in all of these coins, you know, Jeff and Roger and they're invested in all these other coins and it just seems to me like they have everything to gain and everything to profit by keeping this thing both keeping eventually full their coins. So just food for thought. I also wanted to say that we usually start off this segment with a disclaimer about how much we like Roger and how we're friends with him and it's not done. Well, I still I still I mean, I still like him, but I think it's just very sad the way that this has all come down. The once great Bitcoin Jesus seems to have become a bit of a Bitcoin Judas. I stole that from Blake in the chat, but it's just sad and I wish he would come back to us, but I'm afraid that he's causing irreparable damage to Bitcoin. The thing that I thought we all loved and it's just it's sad. I just want to talk about the sole day. We really can. It's that it's not bad is that important. It is, but instead we're going to move on to the exit question, the price of Bitcoin this time next week higher or lower, the old good. 888. Very precise Gabriel D. Vaughn. This time next week. Uh, choppy at could go either way wild seas tone vase. I'm looking at the charts right now. I'm not going to screen share for the sake of time, maybe during predictions at the end, uh, on the edge right here, the 1100 support is right on the edge and maybe lower. I think this is, I mean, even if even if this gets resolved tomorrow, it's going to take months and months for seg with, uh, to to get in the system to get in the system. So it's, um, I think there's the, I think this controversy isn't going anywhere. I don't, the old bubble isn't ready to pop yet. So lower. Get the weekends out. So Jeff Jones. Yeah, this is definitely going to affect the price for a while, but you know, as we know, Bitcoin is a honey badger. So over the time, it's really not going to matter. And even if this sets us back two years, um, that's seriously the time that we need, uh, to continue to get to roll out lightning network and control all, all, all the features of seg weight because we both, we all know that Bitcoin was going to go to 3000 plus like this year. If not this year, very soon. And that's just, it's just too fast. You know, we're, we're, we're going to need more time to build. So this is more than likely a blessing in the skies. But yeah. And while I'm usually bullish, I'm going to agree with the panel that we're going lower. This, uh, fork news is just too much to overcome. It's going to take a lot of work to get through that. Moving on to issue two altcoin madness, the price of a theory of dash, Monero, and many other altcoins climbed higher this week, breaking their all time highs and creating new records almost daily with Ethereum, seeming to rise an average of 33% per day. Ethereum creator Vitalik Booter and took this moment to once again defend the Ethereum hard fork decision, which is clearly not holding back the Ethereum market as the coin rose as high as $47 a coin while Ethereum classic remained around $2 a coin. This Booter and correct are hard forks and acceptable solution that will not permanently damage the price or the coin Gabriel D. Vynne. Uh, permanent. Well, there's no such thing as permanent. The price is something that happens at any instant in time. So that's kind of a useless comment. Doesn't mean anything. Um, you know, based on the pre-mine situation with Ethereum and the fact that the total supply at this point is inflationary forever, uh, this appears to be a, a pond. I definitely think a dump is coming, but hey, you know, maybe the dump will leave the, uh, token higher than it was before. Uh, I definitely am seeing a lot of projects. You know, Ethereum reminds me a lot of blockchain and distributed ledger. There's a lot of meetings and a lot of, uh, a lot of GitHub's, you know, and a lot of open source projects and a lot of announcements. But, uh, not a whole lot of, hey, I'm using this and we saved money or hey, we made this new thing and we're using it. Not seeing a lot of that. So, uh, I think this is pure speculation. Uh, it's basically crypto investors temporarily moving out of Bitcoin and much to cautious to put their money in one of the, you know, mainstream market scams where the entire market is totally manipulated by nation states, printing money out of thin air, uh, plunge protection and all that stuff and then, you know, uh, then even with plunge protection, also fractional reserve behind the scenes with, you know, entities like the DTCC. So they're like, hey, you know, at least this is a blockchain, you know, even if it's inflationary forever, fake, the, uh, you know, and the, uh, even though it can be forked centrally, at least I can see what's going on. So, you know, interestingly, uh, they seem to be diversifying out of Bitcoin. Um, so yeah, I don't really have much to say. It's pure speculation still as far as I'm concerned. Excellent point, Gabe. It's likely the money exiting Bitcoin. I've seen many charts this week showing the actual number of transactions on say dash or Ethereum, the actual people that are using it. And then you look at the price and the charts don't really go together. We're not seeing a large rise of usage to go with a large rise of price. Right. You know, actually, I'd like to correct that I think I might have misled you a little bit there. There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that a lot of dollars are flowing into Ethereum, which would mean that the bankers and some of those people are, uh, are coming into the space. So maybe some new crypto investors are starting with Ethereum at this point because that's the one that they've heard of from their day job or whatever. So maybe some finance people getting in as well. I mean, it was a great time. I'm seeing those charts as well. They also said there may be a lot of money coming in from South Korea, which we had those charts handy. But if you look at them, like Gabe is saying, Fiat, actually USD to Ethereum or other currency to Ethereum rather than Bitcoin to Ethereum, which was the traditional way to enter the altcoins. Tony Vey is more on this. All right. So, uh, I don't even know where to begin. So let's put it this way. Like, I, this is a serious problem. I had to, I'm not exaggerating the three different people today reached out to me with the following question, hey, Tony, how do I buy dash? Um, of all the people to ask how to buy dash. I am the one they're going to. And I replied to them with my video that's that explains it and why dash is a scam. So this like tells me how much of a problem this actually is. So, um, I do believe that money has started flowing out from Bitcoin into these altcoins. And new people are coming in because all they're hearing about is that Bitcoin has a problem. I'm actually okay with that, right? Like, like, I have a slightly different view of Bitcoin. Like, back when we're all holding Bitcoin and the price is going up, it's like, oh man, should we sell? What if this experiment doesn't work? What if Bitcoin doesn't work? Well, at this point, I'm actually okay with it. I'm going to hold on to my Bitcoin. And if my Bitcoin investment doesn't work out and Bitcoin goes down to a hundred bucks and mining kind of collapses. Um, that's, I'm okay with that because then I know that the cryptocurrency experiment did not succeed because at first I was in it to be rich. But now I'm so invested in and built out the right way that money isn't as important. And I will just start focusing on trading traditional markets, which is, I'm hoping to make my specialty. And like I've been telling people, maybe Goldman Sachs will call and I will go working next to some honest people for a change from everything I've seen in the crypto space over the last three to four years. So that's kind of my view on things. This old coin bubble is going to pop and I can tell you right now what's going to happen when Bitcoin eventually writes the ship and look, I don't know how low Bitcoin can go. I don't know when this night, the Bitcoin unlimited nightmare is going to end. I don't know how it's going to end. All I know is that momentum will flip and the momentum will flip so fast that people will not realize how quickly Ethereum will go from 50 bucks to $3. And Dash will go from $200 or whatever it will get to down to 20 cents. And Monero will go from 50 bucks or whatever it gets to all the way down to maybe five bucks because I think Monero is actually useful. The only coin that I think is worthy of a pump is light coin and it's not pumping, which I find more fascinating than anything else out of everything like auger is a $10 for God's sakes and not only is auger useful, auger is dependent on a useful blockchain. That only useless. Thank you. Not only is auger useless, it's dependent on something useless, right? And sooner or later someone will build something on top of auger that's going to be even more useless than the other two and that's going to pump right. So it's also worth noting tone that name coin, which is kind of an abandoned project, went up 150% feather coin, a very old coin went up 50% the Z classic project doubled the ults are just nuts. I don't know why. So I keep advising people to do is please go and research the history of Aurora coin because your coin will probably end the same way go take a look at bit shares go take a look at pay coin like with pay coin by the way, in a way dash is kind of like pay coin because when dash starts to fall. Evan doffield will either be I mean dash can't succeed it's it's actually impossible because just like when a Vitalik buterin took the name a therium with him when he forked it because he's the you know he's the Satoshi of a therium and since he's involved the name will stay with him. So the problem there is for somebody like Evan doffield who's the god of dash so if dash succeeds he goes to prison for competing with the US dollar just like the Liberty dollar and the Liberty Reserve and E gold and whoever else tried to compete with the US dollar because he's a US citizen that is visible I mean if you think you can disrupt. If you think you can create disruption and be known for it just take a look at the life Edward Snowden is living and the life that Julian Assange is living who's not even a US citizen right I mean that is the life you will have. If you're lucky and not you know rotten prison by trying to create disruption the only way to create disruption is to do what Satoshi did you created an anonymously and you get out before you become the go to person and because these people can't do that because then no one would buy their coin so he will lose by winning. And if his coin implodes he will be the first to volunteer to go to prison kind of like Jeff Garza perhaps or Mark or Palace so that the mob doesn't get him so that there's absolutely no win win for any of these projects and Vitalik put her in the same boat exactly the same bowl if he doesn't get arrested for creating a security the mom is going to get him when people realize that a therium had nothing. There's nothing there there there's no technological advancement there and he goes to proof of stake and it works again like like anyway there's just so much bad there so so here's what I was going to say on my prediction so when the ship turns when Bitcoin Bitcoin will the honey badger will survive and when it turns the movement of capital from these old coins is going to go back to Bitcoin. So quickly that everyone that thinks they're so smart and will that is going to get out in time won't the value of all these all will go to zero so quickly and the value of Bitcoin would rise so quickly that they're not going to be like like a thousand people will run for the door and like eight people will fit and everyone else is going to be left wondering what the hell just going to be left. So that's the only long term prediction I have on this. They call it a fire sale because everything's got to go. It's going to Jeffrey Jones. Yeah I mean I think this tone made a lot of good points and we've already made a lot of good points. It's absolutely crazy the markets right now as far as the altcoins and like tone said I have to echo it. I mean they're going to empty just as quickly as they filled there is only one blockchain there is. It's going to be Bitcoin so at least one coin guaranteed of course they could definitely be more but we know for sure that one will be around now. You know I think it's important to point out for everybody that remember you know all of this is new like nobody knows the answers I mean all of this talk about forks and altcoins I mean this is such experimental stuff forks was only referred to just. Software you know before 2009 I mean this is this is kind of crazy stuff so we just need to know that you know we just need everybody to know that nobody knows what's going to go on and anybody who is actually claiming to know I mean they're just they're just going to most likely it burned so I think that. Yeah as because again you know the chains chains don't really die unless there's an actual inoperable issue with the blockchain. Actually physically breaking it so with software so but I also want to point out like as Gabriel they also want to echo something the Gabriel pointed out where. Is you know if you look at the markets you can see that all of these all it's the dollar price that's rising if you all their Bitcoin price the actual price that they're priced in Bitcoin is really not rising that much I mean that's not setting too many records at all if any it's it's only the dollar. It is now it is now it is now so so that's catching up but again that you know that that's going to flow even quicker back to Bitcoin right because that's already priced in Bitcoin so it's it's just it's just crazy because there's so many coins that have that have risen up and have gone by the wayside you know to like to like to point out a few of our coin and and and block shares and all this. Pay coin and all these crazy stuff this is this is what's happening they're just fooling a new round of people into thinking that this is the next you know slice bread and we just have to tell and remind people again and again. Do not unless you do your research because you will find out that most of them are scams most of them are most of them don't and most of the scams that are there don't even know that they're scams so this is you really have to do your research a lot of people are going to get burned in these in these crazy markets as we experiment as. As we experiment as as a species with these things called cryptocurrencies and it's going to be interesting to see now one other thing is that you know Chris Bernesky arc blockchain on Twitter he's been analyzing a theory and dash with these recent rice with these recent rises and he's got a bunch of good tweets that I encourage everybody to go check out but you know he continues to say that look. Transactions and dash remain flat right like a theory was was completely normal until just until you know just recently like you can just totally tell. An analyze this that all of this is straight pumps straight speculation 100% speculation nothing freaking changed from now to a month ago. Nothing but the price that's right nothing but the price and so Bitcoin you know it's Bitcoin is the thing Bitcoin is the news Bitcoin is what's made new all time highs this year it's because of Bitcoin that all these all to were able to rise to the prices that they are now. You know it's Bitcoin started and as you as you said Thomas you know it raised all about it raises all the boats so you know that that that's a major part of it but also. We've been hearing around the Twitter sphere that it there's a new Ponzi in a theory there's a new mm you know a new multi level marketing thing in here three and that could also be causing some of the some of the price spike as well because it's just clear pump clear speculation there's no. Actual market explanation behind these rises so very very crazy stuff and just everybody be careful be careful out there good stuff let's move on to Theo goodman also Theo I wanted to ask if the Bitcoin decline continues will the all follow. Well you asked me a new question now wanted you to repeat the original question because I'm making it harder but yeah the original question is mainly just our hard forks and acceptable solution that will not permanently damage the price of the coin and we're just generally trying to understand what's going on with the alt coins so go ahead yeah. Okay so okay just I think that the first question is good because that relates to a general concept so. You have one thing on one side you have forks and proof of work proof of stake road maps with technical innovations experiments logos. Etc. That's one thing okay but guess what it doesn't matter it doesn't matter how many people use it it doesn't matter if it's innovative it doesn't matter there is no rational reasoning for why the price of these go up if you continue to try to find rational reasons. You might be able to fit fit your narrative a little bit but it's not going to work it doesn't matter okay the price goes up because the price goes up it doesn't matter if it's technically innovative it doesn't matter if it's really being used in real life a Ponzi is real life speculation is real life it doesn't matter if your use case is not the use case. It doesn't fit your narrative that is a highly subjective use case the use case of being a hundred percent a betting chip is a use case just because that's not the use case that you think has utility is a false narrative okay so you people need to get out of that it doesn't matter okay check this out scams go up all scams go up sure they go down to but scams are not scams unless they go up it doesn't work name me a scam that just goes down it does not exist scams go up okay people bet and play on the scams that is normal that is their game okay so that's pretty much and I can make I can make my name a scam that also goes down what steam who I thought you're going to say the US dollar I thought you're going to go in US dollar didn't have a spike at the very beginning it's literally not a spike yeah and when a spike at the very beginning before everyone anyone knew what steam does and ever since then it's a scam that only goes down okay well that's it's taking a point I think Thomas's point is much better the US dollar started at a high point it was valuation it's only gone down yeah well I can argue that one yeah that's true it goes up that's yeah I don't know about dollar I wouldn't I wouldn't really say that it's kind of a different animal and yes steam it is a good exception because of its very what do you want to say experimental inflation let's call it that so yeah that that sure of course you can find exceptions to the rule that generally speaking that's how it works okay so in the other thing it's not really hard just look around so this just you know it's just the liquidity merry go round okay so a circle is 3.14 pie right so just keep that in mind because then everything goes in a circle so Bitcoin goes up and people made some profit and then they put the profit in the up coins and then Bitcoin goes down people panic and then people buy up coins the up coins go up people sell the up coins the people profited and then what do they do will Bitcoin's down with them they buy Bitcoin there you go it is the volume merry go round that happens all the time it's pretty much what's going on we want why are that why are all coins going so how where do you think the people got the capital to buy the all coins well I mean you know 2016 was a pretty epic year for Bitcoin so if you managed to profit that well you might have a little bit extra capital to play some all coins so that helps you know definitely as far as you said like all arises all all boats and all that kind of stuff yeah that's pretty much the example of them and I mean and of course the US dollar value is going to go up with Bitcoin so high I mean that's pretty much a given that's going to raise the USD value of most of these things so as far as a fire drill that's an everything that gets sold of course there's going to be people that sell first that have more information or whatever are timing it better just with everything that's not exclusive to all coins all coins just happen to be pretty much unregulated and pretty much illiquid compared to everything else it's basically the best most innovative penny stock ever made excellent points Theo you're absolutely correct speculation is a valid usage speculation is a real life thing people are trading these tokens for more tokens or more money or whatever and that's fine I also think it's worth noting what Jeffrey Jones said earlier in at Theo echoed that causation does not always equal correlation we think that the Bitcoin price is going down so the Ethereum price is going up but for all we know there's an MLM pumping Ethereum in China we can't know everything everything that's going to go back or Thomas sorry good thinking about that back or generally causation causes a correlation but that's the reverse that it doesn't always pan out I'll agree with which everyone was correct but yeah you get what I'm saying it doesn't always equal so let's move on to the exit question exit question these enhanced altcoin prices a new floor or a new ceiling is their room to grow Gabriel D Vaughan did you call me I couldn't hear yep a new floor or a new ceiling for the old I'm going to go with oh definitely not a new floor new ceiling probably hasn't been reached yet since Bitcoin still undergoing difficulties I'm going to go with Theo on this you know it's just wild and crazy and goes up and down whatever speculators got to speculate let's go to tone vase yeah I also agree it's certainly not on your floor and I think there's more room I mean you know everything is at all time highs I mean you nobody can predict when it's gonna end and we all know what's going to end just one last comment I want to point out where you have to realize about these altcoins it I mean they all have like one guy and if that one guy is out you got a big problem for Ethereum it's with Taliq for Dashets Evan from a narrow it's fluffy pony um a light coin is the only one because Charlie Lee actually has a day job um a lot of these projects have like one person meanwhile if you look at Bitcoin you can't name anyone the one person you would have been scared to leave Bitcoin uh let's say a year ago is Roger Veeer now you can't wait for him to leave Bitcoin right so um there isn't anyone this is the one here's what would worry me uh this is why I'm not worried about Bitcoin versus alt if someone shows me proof that Gregory Maxwell or Lookdash Jr or Peter Todd have have now moved all of their brain power to develop on another chain I will then take that chain seriously until that happens um I'm trying to pay attention to it less and less and less the one person we were worried about leaving Bitcoin is already left his name was Satoshi Nakamoto Jeffrey Jones yeah I mean the other is kind of already nailed it nobody knows where this thing is going to go it definitely had you know there is no ceiling just like kind of Satoshi said for for Bitcoin's value um we can just keep going and going however we know that this particular bubble is going to pop soon you know it can't last very long it can't last for example throughout the to the end of the year or something like that um we we don't know how long that's going to last but we know how it will end and it's not going to end uh with happy faces also the all-time highs always a great time to sell but you can never quite tell when you've hit it until after moving on to issue three venture capital ICO now with more details as we discussed on the show last week Brock Pierce's company Blockchain Capital is launching an ICO and now thanks to wired magazine we have the details the ICO will be offered only to accredited investors and unlike other ICOs blockchain capital is representing the token as a security they hope to fully comply with regulators and create a new regulated ICO market they aim to raise 50 million dollars with this fund with 10 million coming from the ICO investors in the ICO or receive a new feature never before offered to venture capital investors after their first year they will be able to sell early and will not be locked in further tone veys will blockchain capital succeed will they create the world's first fully legal ICO okay so last time we talked about this story I chose not to talk about it because I didn't know any details now that I know some of the details I can talk about it and I think they will succeed and I'm actually not going to be critical of this because I think there this isn't like Ethereum this is basically um I refer to it as the adult version of the Dow okay and I'm actually okay with it here here's what here's what's really happening so Brock Pierce is one of the principles of blockchain capital which is a venture capital fund that invests in but let's say blockchain related companies but it's a real VC fund and they choose I mean of course they can choose to invest in companies I think are dumb they can choose to invest in companies that may succeed that I think are dumb right because they're supposed to be the experts to invest these companies and that's fine they probably know more than me to invest in them the point is all they're doing is they're not even doing the whole fund they have X amount of money they have chosen to raise an additional let's say 20% right let's say I don't know if I can even give the real numbers on this so let me let me ballpark the numbers right or maybe I can give the real numbers right so they have a fund for a hundred million dollars to invest in blockchain technology and they're gonna raise an additional 10 million dollars where there are 10 million tokens right now to buy one of these tokens I mean this token is actually gonna be denominated with one token per dollar and to buy into these tokens you can either be an accredited US investor which means either you're someone that basically there's no actual rules that call you on a credit it basically they would need to know who you are and they would need to approve you as in if the SEC shows up one day and says why was this guy allowed to buy your token you can have a legitimate answer like well this guy has a net worth of five million dollars and we figured him investing a hundred thousand dollars is reasonable or someone let's say if I was to show up and say hey can I invest ten thousand dollars he would say well that's significantly lower than we would want but you know you're a person you're an influencer we know who you are you you have a high standing maybe I don't have a high standing but whatever so basically the an accredited investor that's on the US side also people that are allowed to buy these tokens are foreigners and they're doing it specifically in Singapore under the proper jurisdiction this is where they're using regulation S that allows them to provide this investment to non-US citizens where they can say well we want to give the world an ability to invest in a US venture capital firm and those people don't have to be accredited investors because the law the rules tells them well if you're only the US investors need to be if you're a foreign investor you can just buy this token but you're not buying this random token you're buying a share an adventure capital firm that will invest money into these companies and the better the these companies do the more valuable these shares in the venture capital become so here come the differences right if you're one of the and by the way there is a limit there's a limit of like a hundred investors in the US and there is a limit on how much money all of these USters can put in into the fund and these accredited US investors are going to compete investors who don't really have a limit on the number of people and don't really have any kind of they might have some KYC or they may not have KYC but the point is if they want to realize this investment they would then need to KYC themselves or they would be able to sell these tokens on the open market but they're not selling tokens of some company that you don't know what they do you're just going to be selling a token of a share of a venture capital fund that is legit and is managed by Brock Pierce and his partners so the US investors will have like a one year window I just saw a comment I will have a one year window before they're allowed to sell so if you are a US accredited investor you are locked in your capital fund for one year and then you are free to sell the stock in on your open market this is the exact same model that Barry Silbert is using for the Bitcoin trust where you have to hold that share which corresponds to the value of Bitcoin for one year and then you can sell this share on your open market but in this case they're just sharing you know a piece a small piece of this venture capital that pulls a bunch of money together and if these shares ever trade at a discount then Brock Pierce and his partners can just buy these shares back they're like oh my god we know what it's worth if people want to sell about a discount and we can just buy them back and if they start trading above market value then they can say wow okay maybe our fund is doing better than we think it is and that's perfectly fine too so for the foreigners they actually have less time that they must hold it I think it's like four to six months or something so if you're a foreigner buying into this fund you will be able to sell this token but the thing is even though it's a free floating tradeable token which is going to trade on a valid exchange these aren't exactly better assets you're basically trading pieces it's like the Dow only it's actually you know not decentralized which was dumb and not touring complete which was dumb right you're basically trading shares of Brock Pierce and partners ability to invest that money into companies they seem worthy so hopefully I explained it all I do not have a problem with this they are going through the proper channels and all they're doing is making it this is what we wanted people everyone wanted to be a VC they got it just wait for one of these investors to sell your tokens that correspond to Brock Pierce's ability to invest money that's it I think tone skipped right to the most interesting part first which is what happens after one year when these coins really become coins and start getting listed on exchange and truly anyone could invest that's the most interesting part to me but tones right they're following the regulations they seem to be above board it's a very interesting project Theo Goodman your thoughts on the VC ICO well it sounds like a great way for accredited investors to buy investments and then dump it on the plebs that's probably what will happen it's great you know credit investors get to buy it up pump it for one year pump that shit for one whole year the plebs don't want anything else to but to be able to buy this thing that they can't have because they're not the accredited and then the accredited get to dump on them then the plebs panic because they're minus 20 minus 30 minus 50 minus 90 percent and then the accredited just buy it back that is the one of the best watch out the VC company itself buys them back good amazing concept amazing concept um ICO's work because they're a shady unregulated and in the crypto world hyper speculative that's why I see his work and of course everyone wants a piece of the pie hell it doesn't want one x 5 x 10 x 100 x 500 x just by making these crazy tokens that cost nothing to make out of thin air it's amazing and yep now someone else is waiting they're a way Theo okay I know I I want to go and turn my lights on because now I'm just in a freaking shadow I'm dark over there I know well because I'm on the East coast I like the rest of you well Theo is probably like almost midnight okay no no Theo it's it's it first of all um this is only a small part of the fund right so it's they're not going to get that that um uh bid up all that much because they correspond to like 20 percent 10 or 20 percent of the fund and the entire fund invests in the projects so that means what if you bid up the price of the token you're also saying that the other 80 percent that have nothing through with the token are also worth that much and that's just not going to be true if people want to pay this much if people want to overpay you know like hey it's up to them it's their mistake and this is no different than like Brock Pierce could have done this a year ago right he's following the conversation I actually didn't say it's a good idea and just saying that's what will happen I mean there's also an interesting potential for disaster what if the 10 million coins that are on the market are all dumped and suddenly like you're saying they go for less of the value doesn't that hurt the other 40 million that can't move that are stuck we don't we don't know we don't know what will happen I was just giving an example you know of a cycle of a typical cycle that I could say that we don't but remember these coins can be overhyped it's overhyped now I have the first regulated ICO ever I want to get in I heard these ICOs have 500 x return I don't care about the other projects well you blockchain technology you might be able to get in you know like with your profile you may you may but that's the thing you may need a minimum of like 20 30 thousand dollars or yeah I don't think they're going to be looking for my 100 bucks if people are putting it away wait wait you're not an American you can get in there's I just mean no no I don't mean that I just mean that the that the value is set to be hyped just like anything else in this space that's it is it is it possible you could do derivatives of these tokens maybe we could have longs and shorts and then whole yeah we're going to be able to we're going to be able to borrow shares to go short on that right Theo you can you can actually get in because you're not an American citizen you don't need to be an accredited investor it doesn't it doesn't matter it's it's okay it might it might work I don't know I know but remember when you get in when you get in you're just buying pieces of a VC fund that will invest up money for you is just like the Dow only responsible right yeah I'm I'm I'm I'm letting Brock Pierce and other dudes you know invest for me right instead of slok it right exactly you do have to kind of like the slok it I did at least you got to vote there's a more technologically interesting project but this is a more legally interesting project let's go to Gabriel Devon for your thoughts well you know I think it's an interesting step and it's kind of I think it's kind of logical that we would go to a sort of hybrid model between traditional investment and straight up coin offering you know anonymous crypto coin offering and I think it's a great sign you know like to both tone and Theo I think that you know this this is kind of you know cutting edge stuff and it is a harbinger of technological and economic investment investment protocols equity disbursement models that are coming down the pike and I think it's great and it makes sense that they're going with you know kind of a more traditional route and I think that it is truly a harbinger there will want you know at a certain point there's going to be like 50 50 where you know 50 percent of IPOs are going to be you know with fiat and fiat markets and then the 50 other 50 percent will be crypto and then people are going to be like why are you doing a traditional one I don't know that you're not scamming me and giving me the same certificates numbers as a bunch of other people it's not trackable and I think there's going to be a bit of a rush to switch all the systems to to ICOs eventually because it's just there's a lot less room for fraud in this on the trading level and on the actual disbursement model so you know well while there certainly can be fraud in this models and the investment vehicles if you can remove some of the fraud from the trading and disbursement I think that's a good move for everybody so it'll be fun to see you know ICOs move into the future and I think that actually equity ICOs are going to be a huge massive part of the economy within 12 years about 10 years from now we're going to start seeing the huge systems where instead of you know being a centralized company like say a Facebook are these tech these tech companies I think we're going to see some amazing new models for investment and ownership where you're going to start seeing all of the users of a platform actually being owners and you know gaining financially gaining material from the success of a platform whose ownership is widely dispersed therefore thereby distributing wealth throughout our society in an amazing new way it's going to be fantastic but it's going to take a long time there's going to be a lot of scams until we get there there's going to be a lot of centralized pyramid scheme type situations that need to collapse before we find a model that works over the long term it's going to be wonderful I think it's going to be amazing I think Ethereum is trying to get there and I think they will probably fail I'm going to see something more like root stock take over something that's tied to the most secure blockchain which is Bitcoin so I think I think that tough will probably be running on layers two three four on top of Bitcoin excellent points Gabriel and it's worth noting I totally forgot what's going to say tone vase actually we're going to Jeffrey Jones we haven't heard about the sorry I see how it is Thomas I mean I love tone too but like you know we can't let them talk the whole show no uh no and thanks tone you know for all for your explanation of this kind of this as well um I think we all can appreciate it for sure because it's a little bit confusing for people who aren't you know on who don't know that much about Wall Street stuff and traditional assets so very cool um but I and that's why I wanted to go last too because I'm the least familiar but I can tell you that the best investment is to buy Bitcoin just keep buying Bitcoin and stop buying all these ICOs stop buying all these all coins stop buying all these assets stop buying traditional assets just keep buying Bitcoin now um this this is interesting you know this this uh this legal ICO I guess you could call it or this legal um this legal Dow right it's interesting because it represents another example of Wall Street trying to get in on the Bitcoin and crypto space and um you know they're going to they're not going to stop right there somebody somebody wants this money and it's and it's going to be these people they're going to continue to try uh to invade the Bitcoin space and you know as as Theo and Gabriel kind of pointed out this is over time um they're going to turn to crypto like over time we're going to have like we're eventually we'll get to the point towards 50 50 but over time people will move more towards crypto assets because they're they're provably there like like like Gabriel said but nobody's going to want your your traditional crap where you can just hand out the certificate to multiple people no they want to know that it's going to be verified because they're saying that hey all those other people are making money off of verified assets why can't we so it's it's it's it's it's definitely interesting again it's it's more of Wall Street um trying to try to use the the innovation of Bitcoin but at the end of the day it's probably going to make rich people richer I remember what I was going to say uh Gabriel was spot on with this prediction of 50 percent last year in the crypto space alone 48 percent of the funds raised for venture capital were for ICOs so we're already seeing it here I was also going to say what Gabe was talking about with the gold tokens and having a token that represents gold it's not a bad system as long as you can confirm that those tokens are original and that they represent gold like Gabe saying put it on a blockchain maybe have a camera that monitors the vault puts up the the key on the wall I don't know there's a lot of systems there but it could be more fair if we knew how many tokens there were for sure you know you know gold gold I think is a really poor use case for that but ownership in a digital company whose entire system is completely transparent and tracked by you know blockchain data structures now that is something that I think has a future and then when I'm talking about these situations where you know tone is rightly pointing out like hey you know uh you can issue all the ICOs you want but if if you if you have to depend on three people uh you know issue dividends and things like that there's still tons and tons of room for fraud but if you have addresses that are publicly known where all the income comes into these multi-sig addresses you know say from ads or from donations or whatever you know let's say let's say it's a yours type of model where um you know they're put the the the owners pull off tiny fees um you know if you can see all that transparently and there's no way to get money into the business without going through these public addresses you've got a powerful platform which totally removes on a cryptographic level any possibility of fraud or at least greatly reduces it 99.9% or whatever that's a beautiful thing I create a lot of opportunities for wealth there definitely be an increased transparency but with it comes an increased chance of hacking as you're now honeypawting your funds online but I do see what you're saying Gabriel it could be a new innovation tone-based you have another point on this yeah I got to jump back in um well again this time around the honeypot thing is kind of debatable because I mean it's pieces of Brock Pierce's company and if you choose to KYC yourself then those tokens can't really be taken from you right I mean they they still belong to you um but uh no I was gonna push back on uh on vortex here a little bit and that you started off by saying the wiser investment is the whole bitcoin and I agree with you this is why being a VC is stupid and uh I know it's stupid because the one time I tried to play VC in the world of bitcoin it cost me half of my bitcoin stash okay so um it's hard for you to um pitch the fact that bitcoins a better investment while at the same time claim this is Wall Street getting richer and I disagree with that VC's lose money hedge funds lose money this is why there are laws that these people need to be accredited investors that's because um the regulators know that most hedge funds and most VC's will lose you money so you need to have money in order to lose money and you're aware of this so what happens in this case is so for every guy that managed to make a lot of money on uber and airbnb as like the initial VC there's a high chance that all the money that he made by then sitting around at a poker table with his rich buddies talking about how he was an early uber investor if you add up all of his other VC ventures he's probably lost more money than he's gained um and when you have a lot of money you now it's all about the ego now it's all about you know being that guy that can claim he was involved in the early days of some new new technology even if even if putting that money in there was so speculative and even if he got it right he probably it's still probably cost him of all the other shit that he got wrong okay so if Bragg Pierce wants to open up 20% of his fund to foreigners that otherwise wouldn't be able to do this that's fine and regulation allows him to do it without making them accredited and then if he wants to open it up after one year of accredited investors losing interest to non-accredited investors in small amounts that's also fine but but you're right this probably will be a losing venture but for people that are investing in it but they will be able to you know look fancy to their friends by not disclosing whether it actually made or lost the money when it's all said and done yeah yeah that's true it is worth noting that the typical and this is an oversimplification but the typical VC investment is invest in 10 companies if one of them is a success like an Uber level success then you win and it doesn't matter how your other investment so it is a one out of two that's the thing you definitely win by being cool with your other friends whether you win financially is can still be debatable it depends on the if that one investment actually returned 10 times your money and and most of these things is not one out of 10 most of them is one out of a hundred so now it's got to return a hundred times your money and in a lot of cases it doesn't in a lot of cases it does but some people invest in a hundred companies and none of them make you anything and now you lost everything right yes these are very very recipes yes good but but but at least you know your capital isn't now at risk of a Dow hacker so I mean I there's really I can't complain about this too much and no I'm not invested in it some people are already thinking that I'm involved I am totally not involved but as I mentioned in the chat perhaps we can pitch the world crypto network to Brock Pierce and if he wants to fund us people investing in these tokens might be able to have a stake in the future of the world crypto network this is pretty much how it works WCN coin well no it would be Brock Pierce coin where WCN is one of the investments right so this is how it will work there'll be an interesting time we'll have to see how it goes and we're going to move on to the exit question would you invest in the VC ICO just go down a line here Theo Goodman would you invest no Gabriel divine can you answer this question is it is it a meta like VC is it an investment in Brock's company itself or is it just an announcement that he's going to do it for their companies that they're investing my my understanding is it's a it's a third round it's a $50 million and that the 50 million will be invested in new companies so I think you would own the third round of blockchain capital I don't get more information on that I'm gonna say I thought it was slightly different than that if I had lots of money I thought it was slightly different than that I think it's just it's just a pool of money that will have a digital token this pool of money would be added to other pools of money which will then be used to fund companies in the crypto space because his fund only funds companies in the crypto space but this chunk just will happen to have a component that will be freely traded to other people but you're basically investing in Brock's ability to make more money by investing in the right companies yeah I think Brock Smart I would invest tone vase would you invest I would not invest and it has nothing to do with Brock I'm just at I just in my experience between hedge funds and VCs the I mean the it's pure luck that like I again like this I like to make fun of the efficient market hypothesis but efficient market hypothesis tells you that like like Wartex said a better investment is to just hold Bitcoin well now my ability to invest in companies is significantly worse than Brock Pierce's ability to invest in companies but that doesn't mean that Brock Pierce's ability to invest in companies is a wise investment for me so I actually would not invest I would rather pitch a company to Brock and try to get funding from that fund then invest in that fund better to get funding than be the funder Jeffrey Jones right yeah so um sorry what was the exit question would you invest I'm sorry yes sorry so yes so I would say that you know I repeated I ready I would say that no I would invest in Bitcoin over and over if I had any extra money it would definitely um excellent Bitcoin over and over um I would be interested in investing I probably only have a couple hundred dollars so I don't know that I'm an accredited investor but I do like the differences about this ICO the attempts at following the regulations although I don't find it to be a technically interesting ICO I'd like to see more interactivity with the token uh but I think it's an interesting idea I will have to see how it goes oh Thomas can I just mention that right so here's the situation right you may be an accredited investor but because he is limited to about 100 accredited investors you will you even if you qualify as an accredited investor you will not be allowed to invest such little money because only 100 people would be allowed to invest so he's limited right now if there was an infinite number of people but because there's only like a hundred U.S. accredited investors allowed um a Brock Pierce would only want people with a decent chunk of money now if you are not a U.S. citizen and you don't have to be accredited then you might be able to only invest a few hundred bucks because then I think it's opened up to how people in like the third world that want to invest a little bit okay it's great we can help people in the third world lose their money too let's move on to issue four issue four Bitcoin user base doubling every 12 months according to Google trends the user base of Bitcoin is doubling every year this is an incredibly bullish sign for the fledgling cryptocurrency as new users are flowing in which naturally leads to an increase of capital investment Bitcoin blogger Willie Wu believes that Bitcoin will reach 50% adoption in nine years with a classical S curve fully in effect for the price which will follow adoption Jeffrey Jones is he right is Bitcoin growing exponentially well and this is what's funny you know I think that it's been growing like crazy since its since its inception um during the whole two year bear market stage that we had that everybody kind of had to suffer through um it was everything else all everything but the price was growing so we're talking you know node nodes we're talking transactions hashing power users on blockchain that info wallets I mean just just kind of even coin base users everything was was growing and it's still continuing to grow there's going to be some hiccups of course as always it's not going to grow in in the perfect manner but it is continuing to grow grow and it's not going to and it's not going to slow down anytime soon uh like I said yeah we're going to have if it forks we're going to have a bit of a you know a sideways kind of effect but still that's not going to stop the developers from creating more software that's going to bring more people in and uh more and more people are just going to keep joining so um because mainly there's nowhere else to go right so yeah it's going to keep growing and growing uh from what I'm looking at it grows up and you grows up and you grows up Theo Goodman the question is if Willy Wu is right is Bitcoin growing exponentially it seems like it not really a lot to say Bitcoin is growing exponentially well I'm excited by Gabriel Devon Hey Thomas is it mentioned uh any current estimates of a number of users in the entire world of Bitcoin um uh i'm not sure it does have a chart it talks about it talks it it bases everything on google searches so it doesn't even base it on wallets and I think it's terrible to base it on wallets because people can make infinite number of wallets uh it's it's basically based on uh google searches and compares it to the price yeah interesting i mean um um number is right now i remember hearing something uh and three million back in 2013 uh so three doubling's four uh three doubling since then would mean uh something around let's see five ten twenty million which sounds actually pretty like a pretty decent estimate actually i won't be surprised if there are about 20 million Bitcoin users which is totally a stab i mean imagine you know Satoshi Hal Finney you know we're going from one to two and you tell them hey you know in uh less than ten years you're going to have 20 million users um and you know a close to 20 billion dollar market cap um and a nine year estimate so 2026 to see half of the world population which is seven billion three and a half billion users a Bitcoin in nine years yeah i buy it i think we're headed there for sure that sounds good right they're obviously incredibly bullish numbers and exciting to all of us who were even slightly early into cryptocurrency that many more people are joining us the things that excited us are exciting other people and they're they're getting turned on to it every every new day every new day someone's going Bitcoin crazy uh we've seen it ourselves here in the world crypto network we're getting a lot more views a lot more comments and a lot more interest in the videos that we do and we think that's partially because of the price but partially because of these trend numbers there are simply more people into Bitcoin altcoins etc then there were last year tone base all right so the only uh i mean i i i i i guess i there's really not much to disagree with the analysis other than um i would have phrased it differently i don't believe that in nine years half the world will be on Bitcoin but if you phrased the question have the internet connected world i would agree with that right so i would remove people that don't have access to the internet from that statistic and then i would be internet have you looked at the penetration figures tone because those are also dubbed and we're already nearing to billion now and it's speeding up so um you know in nine years sure sure sure because that's like smart for eight years and four percent barrier to entry you have the uh why shy the internet's all in one box yeah absolutely absolutely but uh but still uh i mean if the entire world is connected to the internet in nine years then sure that uh but i don't think uh but but i think that needs to be factored into account uh because it the Bitcoin is really for the internet connected the internet the internet uh petriot lot less um you know a lot less uh controversial then Bitcoin adoption internet adoption is looking extremely likely so i would not be surprised at all before at 95 percent internet penetration right but yeah but we don't know if Bitcoin is going to be controversial in nine years that's still left to be seen because if we're talking 1995 internet with controversial right uh your your your kid can watch porn and be abducted by someone talking to them on aim so uh back in 9495 internet was also controversial so we don't know about it. I believe 95 is when the internet used to cheat around 20 million. Oh interesting yeah we should take a look at those statistics but yeah so i'm okay with it uh it seems reasonable he's not using wallets which is good he's using just google searches and um again i don't have that much to complain about i'm glad someone is you know doing some of this analysis because um while other people are too busy trading old coins someone is actually doing something useful so i'm happy. All right we're starting to run out of time so let's go to predictions or a story of the week. Theo Goodman are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Hmm prediction or a story of the week well damn in one week there was a lot of stuff that happened right um i think i'm just gonna stick with the uh prediction Bitcoin 888 888 Gabriel divine. Keep shillin that 888 number think i'm talking to cliffhye here um you know i didn't get to uh give the story of the week that i had planned last week because i spaced so this week i'm gonna catch up with it and uh in the last week last week is Bitcoin core 0.14 was released in the midst of all this still has the core team released a killer update with no segwood stuff out there then are doing incredible stuff uh with the Bitcoin core client they've got some speed up for syncing which is supposed to be a really big speed up something like 45% improved fee estimation we got opt-in replaced by fee for sending so that's fantastic um more options for uh you know for you know pushing a transaction through after you've send it um you got man old pruning you got some more flexibility in how you want to uh how much data you want to keep in your blockchain um some block relay improvements i think some of the some of the a lot of the experiments in uh the speed of relaying between nodes are starting to now come into the code base and a lot of bug fixes and low level stuff happening as well as um code base um refactoring uh modularization things that are going to make future improvements faster so a lot of general improvements very few big headline improvements in 0.14 just a lot of under the hood killer stuff so amazing work from the core team coming out and improving you know shared Bitcoin experience it's fantastic a very good update tone veys all right um can you guys see this looks good okay excellent i'm just gonna do i mean i have a prediction and a story of the week i guess let's talk about the price real quick so this is a brave new coin liquid index which will update in about two hours as you can see i expected the 1150 line to be a struggle we went above it we are now below it we are now sitting at around 1060 so we are like below this 50 day moving average so and i expected us to be in this 1050 range um looking out into april fools day april first so we're kind of still in range um it's a little gloom and doomy right now but technically it's not that bad um jump the head a little bit so looking at the daily chart i am still within this channel that we've now had for years as long as we stay above this channel or dip a little bit below it and immediately bounce off so as long as we stay above 915 and immediately get back into the channel there's really nothing that much to worry about the hourly chart is looking a little bit bad those that watch me on my podcast would know i drew one of these let me extended um so can we hit the bottom of this yellow line it's possible and that puts us in at 915 range where we hopefully bounce off of so let me stop sharing the screen um pretty much uh that's kind of my prediction on the price uh we might go down a little bit more um as for as for my story at the week it's actually a repeat of an old story where i have been saying since the day i heard about steemit that then larimer will leave steemit scam and he will get ready to work on another scam so that larimer has officially left steemit and my prediction is just wait for another white paper with his name in the front of it he will lead another scam if you jump on not scam early you will probably make a bunch of money i however will stick to my principle and just call out that larimer on the next project he does because it'll absolutely be a scam he is now an expert he wants to be known for the most scams in the space uh if he does one more he will be ahead of jab mccana and if you don't know who jab mccana is you are very new to the space excellent my bad sorry i couldn't pronounce his name right jab mccayla to help people out he was the original creator of mount gox way before markar palace was ever involved he was also he also brought us and he also brought us um stellar and i'm waiting for his fourth scam then larimer has already done three scams so where um let's see which one of the two will be involved in their fourth scam excellent point tone and good point on the correction it is jab mccayla it's not uh jared mccana who uh worked on trade hill uh just an older bit corner probably mixing together in your mind exactly you know that that that that that confuses me all the time sorry about that and let's move on to jeffrey jones for prediction or a story of the week oh let's see i guess i'll just do a story of the week because of towing's freaking price predictions are awesome you guys got to check out his youtube channel uh he you know he does all the normal markets in addition to bitcoin so i just fast forward to the bitcoin stuff but you know uh everybody should check it out it's very cool um let me see here so let's see um man that's so awesome to hear that the guy left statement just like you predicted they're they're they're called legacy markets for times like legacy markets it's just amazing how uh how how tone called this one as well where the guy left and he left officially left steemit so everybody's got to tweet that out right now uh that that guy actually left steemit that's freaking hilarious um i guess the only thing um just a mini story of the week i guess we're hearing some more information out of china um about how there there might be requiring onsite verification for some of their stuff which is kind of weird and interesting some people are like panicking about it and of course i i know bitcoin won't even care um or else it would have already you know priced that into the market so it's um just not a whole lot of news it just this just outside of the topics that we talked about it's been a crazy absolutely crazy week and uh for all you guys in bitcoin you know this is this is how it works this is just another week in bitcoin and so i just wished everybody a happy bitcoin happy week in bitcoin Jeff's right it's been a crazy week and i didn't really have a chance to prepare anything i wouldn't want to say i started a new blog on medium if you want to check that out i also read the blog post out loud so if you don't like reading you like listening you give that a try and i just wanted to uh celebrate that last week uh we kind of had all my friends here and Blake and Chris and Jeff were all here and i wish tone and Gabe and and Theo could have visited but you're so far away but it was really exciting to have everyone here and i just wanted to thank the community to donating uh for helping Chris get his flight and helping Blake and get his flight out here that really helps uh the small contributions it was around a thousand dollars that we raised and we spend it on travel and it's gone now uh but thank you very much for supporting us and i had a great time having everyone here i'm still working on editing an interview that i did with Chris Ellis i'll try to get that out as soon as i can the sound is well the sound is what it is i still need to buy a fancy recorder there's a bit of an echo on it uh but i think it's very listable uh might have Chris uh take pro tools to it try to reduce the echo but you know we're just we're trying to do the best we can and thank you so much for helping us create this content i'd like to thank the 300 or so live viewers for joining us and uh it's really great if you guys can give us a comment and a thumbs up and um all of that stuff we had a great time in the chat too uh but we're out of time until next time bye bye