The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For over the last ten years, the Sharpen's Satoshi's the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Arck from LNBIT. Hello. Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Good evening, everybody. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. The price of Bitcoin is up. Quick refresh to get the latest price from Bitcoin.com. It's almost breaking off the top of the chart. The price of Bitcoin is up 1.75% in the last 24 hours, with a last of $103,330, a high of $104,340, and a low of $101,390. That's $1 for 968 Satoshi's on the other side of the 1,000 Satoshi Barrier. Issue one, removing Bitcoin's guard rails. The op return issue. As we discussed last week on the show, the op return discussion had started brewing on Twitter with many angry forces on both sides. This week, as expected, we can get you more information and provide detailed information as well as leaks, links to where you can get the story for yourself. To check out this excellent blog by BitMex Research, removing Bitcoin's guard rails, where they talk about in detail about op return and that previously it was a limited output you could store some data. They want to make it an unlimited output. This is because of the popularity of ordinals and other things which are already happening. The main discussion seems to come down to whether or not you think people that pay are spammers. The idea of Bitcoin previously has always been that the fee would adjust getting rid of the spammers. Eventually, it's too expensive to spam. Other people are saying that even if you pay, you are a spammer. Jameson Lopson. One side, he says the op return debate is novel due to how the factions are split. One side is ruthlessly rational technological folks who understand the dynamics of the network and don't want to play unending subjective games. The other side are ideological folks upset how others use the network who want to play those games. So, Jameson is clearly on the side of those who pay can use the network. Simple mining has a different take saying that some are saying it's a slippery slope to Ethereum, others calling it an essential upgrade, and still our friend DJ Booth questions it saying, since when does Bitcoin acquiesce to flash in the pen business models with some claiming that chain code labs asked Peter Todd to make the opportune limit go away, then arc, it's a complex issue, it's exploding over crypto Twitter if there is such a thing left in this dark dark world. What do you think about upper return and the attempt to make it unlimited upper return? I mean, there's a lot of skin in the game isn't there? So in the article with the ordinal article, they said that there had been 7,000 Bitcoin made in fees on ordinals using ordinals. So clearly there's a vested interest for this thing to be pushed through or not to be pushed through. And that even applies to Peter Togsler people like, well, why is Peter Todd PRing for somebody else? But ultimately, you know, uses up return with open time stamps. And there is that limit to what you can, you know, hash into a transaction via upper return currently it's limited to 80 bytes. And that limit was put in place. So we didn't add bloats to the blockchain. And it would help open time. So it would help help help a bunch of projects if that limit were not there. If you could squeeze more into into into into upper return. So basically the right works is as I understand it is one of the outputs of your transaction is you can just push in some larger upper true data. It's quite limited at the moment. And then that's essentially burnt. So it's like a burnt trend. This is like historically how people have stored data on the blockchain and made it persistent is that you just you're burning to an address. And without returning to take one of the outputs and then you can put 80 bytes in and you can put a hash in of some mercury of data. So you get a whole bunch of days like with open time stamps, you know, you get a whole bunch of documents you want a time stamp. And then you create a tiny little hash of all these documents essentially. And then you can store that hash in the blockchain and say, at this point in time, this hash was stored in the blockchain. And then if you can recreate that hash using those documents and using that data, you can say, well, you know, that data exists at that point in time, which is a huge use case for for all sorts of reasons. I mean, my partner she was doing a PhD in chat. Yep. When you start when you start academic study or scientific study, you have to say the protocol you're going to use for how you're going to collect and observe your data or whatever. That needs to then be timestamped and the way in which the in academia they timestamp this information is so easy to corrupt and change. Actually, if you just hash into a Bitcoin transaction, it kind of makes sense. So there's a whole bunch of like use cases. I mean, like simple proofs, for example, which is a great project, which works with open time stamps for provably fair, sorry, not provably fair, more more provable digital voting systems. And they ran it in Guatemala for a Guatemala election is they had a whole bunch of omnis, omnis, bun from lots of different overseas. And they all said that it's probably one of the fair elections, which has ever happened on the planet when it comes to digital voting. And I think they've managed to run a couple of states in the US. And that uses open time stamps as well and ultimately ultimately uses up return as well. So it's obviously a huge use case that you have this time chain of stuff which has happened. And you can say cryptographically that this thing within the blockchain has probably happened at that point in time. Or more or less definitely has happened at that point in time, which is, it's just massive on the internet because you don't have to prove there's something happened to a specific point in time and you can't go in and change the data. But all that being said, ultimately, you know, Bitcoin's use case is transferring value. You know, it's this digital cache on the internet. So do we want it is this huge file storage which anyone can put anything in. And if you increase that opportunity limit, then you can stick more arbitrary data within that transaction. And that raises questions of what type of data. So currently usually if someone wants to put something in there, which is kind of dodgy or illegal or whatever, then it's sort of fiddly like you have to use multiple transactions or you have to just create a hash of the transaction. And say, oh, look, I'm storing the hash of this transaction that whereas if you increase that limit, then you could store more data directly onto the Bitcoin blockchain. It kind of blows out a little bit. I was always on the side historically for years, I've been on the side of if the code allows it, people want to pay the fee, you can stick anything you want to put in the transaction. That's fine. That's what the fee mark is for. More recently, I've been kind of, you know, introduced into this world of affinity scammers, which we now have in Bitcoin, of all these like layer one layer two project affinity scammers. And it's the ICO scammers, the shit coin scammers, the people who just want to make a quick book and I'm actually producing it, I think worthwhile. They're now piggybacking off Bitcoin being the main effect, which you all knew it was, of course. And they're creating this like these, these basically shit coins on Bitcoin, you know, it's like, oh, it says a layer one project and it's Bitcoin centric because you use Bitcoin as the gas and it has a token and blah, blah, blah, blah, I've token and it's just a shit coin. I fear that when you increase that overturn limit, then it allows for more of that type of behavior. And actually these like scammers have become so sophisticated now that if I were like new into Bitcoin space, if you were just to kind of look at Google Bitcoin and projects on Bitcoin, like it'd be quite hard to differentiate between what's good and what's bad. But then again, I suppose, I don't know, I mean, it's just, I just kind of, I was always like, you know, all the stuff which happens on the shit coins, I'm like, well, let's spring back to Bitcoin. But then more recently, I've suddenly started getting very conservative and I'm like, yeah, please, can you just stay away from Bitcoin and just, can we just keep Bitcoin as transactions for now and then maybe in the future, you can add some stuff into that. I mean, like the, the way I think the AI OptroTerm works now is pretty good. You know, you can, you can use it for open time stamps, you can use it for whatever else. And I know that by increasing that limit, it makes like tarot easier to run and RGB and a whole bunch of like good use cases. But then it's a double H sword, you know, then open in the doors for all these sort of spamming use cases which can blow, blow the blockchain as people say. So I'm not sure what my opinion is on it because I'm almost, I'm backtracking on my, the opinion which I've held for years about if you pay the fee for the transaction, you can put whatever you want into the blockchain. I like a smaller envelope because I think people are a little bit, you know, if it's like, you can store this much data, arbitrary data within a Bitcoin transaction. Now go build some stuff and, you know, people build stuff. And then if you increase that amount of space which people can store the arbitrary data in, then this less of a, and now I like a narrow design envelope which people have to design for because I think it makes people more efficient. And then ultimately the world needs Bitcoin to work as a pre- and open source, apolitical, decentralized money which is an opt out for people who don't want to engage in the traditional financial system. The world needs that. It also needs, you know, a decentralized fast-orage system but maybe Bitcoin isn't for that. Maybe Bitcoin should just be kept for transmitting value. Maybe that's the answer. But I'm not 100% sure why. I mean, everyone on the internet says he's very opinionated on why they sit on this debate but I'm like, I have an opinion but I have conflicting opinions. I don't know. Ben, we'll break it down a little for us. When it says unlimited right now, I'm thinking that it's a tech string. You could put maybe just some characters in there. Does unlimited mean JPEGs? Does it mean? Yeah, it means it means exactly. Yeah, exactly. Based upon how much I'm willing to pay, could I put a movie on there? Yeah, exactly. It's unlimited. You could stick anything in there. So you could stick something with a pay, right? It would be expensive. You've got to pay. You've got to pay. But yeah, you've got to pay. So like, you, I mean, this is something we've had a debate we've covered on this show before. And I think it's something which will be covered more in the future. But if somebody, you know, stores a sketchy image on the Bitcoin blockchain and we're all downloading such essentially that sketchy image and then distributing it like, there's laws which don't like that kind of behavior. So I'm not all for being able to just store images and then everyone else having to be able to like. But to some extent, those images are happening with text, right? People put the Quran on there. They put other things that you can't distribute, copyrighted works, so forth, religious things people might disagree with and so forth. All in text. It's just kind of hard to put a JPEG. You could put a GIF. You could pay more, put a movie. I mean, like, and then the second question here is, what about things like compact, compact blocks or nodes that update quickly? I know we had some nodes smaller, lighter nodes. Does this break all them? And then when we say the data is in there, is it really in like the Bitcoin blockchain? I mean, I know previously and the articles talked about how with other projects, they used Segwit and Taproot, or they used Segwit to put the data in the witness, right? So they snuck data in for not ordinals, but the other project, what an inscriptions or something. But and then this is different though. This would be more official because it's in the opportune. So does it break all the compact blocks? Does it break all the nodes that update quickly? Can it be quote pruned? People say? But I mean, so you want to be able to filter and maybe up return is in the best code for that. Maybe we need something else like an op commit code where you can have tags where you're like, okay, this is the image of this video, whatever. And then and then you can filter that shit out if you want to. So it's kind of hard to filter some of that data out when you're trying to prune a node and prune nodes are very popular with people who are running. You know, they just want to access the lightning network or do payments on their phone. They don't want a full Bitcoin node on their phone. They want like a prune node. That's fine for that use case. And it doesn't make that more difficult. If there isn't decent filtering and I think that's the concern I have is is like, there are the ways to store more arbitrary data on the on the blockchain, which could allow you to have a tag. So you can at least try and do some filtering to filter some of the crap you don't want. I think that would be a good idea, but that might be also changing the project. Like you said, Ben, there's this fear that Bitcoin would become more than just a financial transaction network and be come from many things. As for your inability to make a decision on either side, I really agree with BitMex, their blogs decision here. They say conclusion, we are somewhat supportive of the removal of the opportune limit because it really does seem like a thing that we could do. But why do we have to do it now? Why are we in such a hurry? Well, that's it. We typically need it for. And with Bitcoin, you're always operating on that Boeing 747 while it's flying in mid-air full of passengers. And there are all these unknowns. I hate that argument, but there are unknowns. Like when you change something in the future, you don't know how people are going to use it. And when it comes to our data into Bitcoin transactions, you don't know whether the fee system will hold out and will be able to, like, you might be able to game it in some way, which we're not aware of. Because that functionality currently doesn't exist. But I quite like this, the support you have for ulterior implementations because for a long time in Bitcoin, we're like, oh, yeah, we're decentralized. But then you have Bitcoin core. It's basically the client everybody runs. And then early on, you had multiple clients, but now really you've just got Bitcoin core and then you've got not spoken. It's just that you've got to share which works on that. So I quite like that there's a whole bunch of people now who are like at least experimenting with alternative clients. Not that I have any problem with Bitcoin, but Bitcoin core is incredible and crikey, whatever they decide to do, I'm a, in that regard, I'm a, it's for me, it's a meritocracy. Like they know what they're doing just even to it at this point in time anyway. But it's nice that people are exploring some of those alternative implementations and running things like that. Because it's good to have multiple clients. I know what Donald Rumsfeld famously said, there are unknown unknowns and there are unknown unknowns. And there are things that we know that we don't know and there are things that we don't know that we don't know. Check again with the chat, do we need opportune unlimited inspiring formulas? Say as it reminds him of we need cups of coffee now. Shrodinger says it might as well be unlimited. They could put the data in the witness space, but cheaper to do it better this way. Let's see, ordinals are popular among collectors, maybe not normal people. Chicasi says his gut says no to unlimited opportune. And let's see, we're heading towards the future with more data on chains as dusty gray. Maybe it's too short. I think that's that's it for me. I think that's it for me. If my head is saying, if people want to pay the fee, let them do whatever they want to do, oh my god, it's saying, no, don't do that. It seems like an especially bad time with so many bad actors, so many financial actors, so many non cyberpunk, non libertarian, non agreeing with the project actors. It seems like they're introducing a possibility where you could break the system with this. I'm also interested in the idea, like you said, Ben, that coins spent on these, whatever they are, unlimited opportune would be burnt forever. So in the way that it does destroy Bitcoin, it increases the value for everyone else holding Bitcoin just like lost bitcoins. And finally, before we go to Victoria, who I know is waiting patiently in the wings, Ben, what do you think? Is this Peter Todd Satoshi, allegedly the creator of Bitcoin according to HBO, a friend of ours? Is he coming back to save Bitcoin again? Like in the prophecies, he goes to open time stamps, he comes back, he fixes opportune, he can do some other magic with open time stamps, is this once again obvious? I think it's like not real proof, but... I think it's more that the Antoine Gaures, he's had some shit in the past from the community and he's like, we should probably be all this thing in because there's demand for it, but I don't want to do it and they have an internal debate in Peter Todd because he's such a troll, he's like, I'll do it, I'll never get a fuck. And then he did it, but he also has a vested interest in that open time stamps is his baby and it's a very... I love open time stamps, I think the world needs to wake up so open time stamps, how useful it is. But it is his baby and it would make open time stamps work a little bit easier. I do agree, Ben, coming from a legal data background, having time stamps, having an open system, not requiring on just notaries, but having a better modern, you know, future system rather than that stamp, we stamp documents still here physically. Victoria Jones, what do you think, op return? You can store more data in the blockchain and of course, Peter Todd could be Satoshi, don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's not a story I've been following and didn't know what was happening until I read the article this evening. I think the point I would pick up on is the idea of building a Boeing 747 and the sky, I mean, you just don't want to mess with Bitcoin too much, you don't want to change it too much. It's the unknown consequences. I mean, ultimately, it's the same kind of problem with what we've got with our existing legal system. You end up making laws to undo the bad laws that you did in the past. I mean, just stop making laws. You've got the basics, leave alone. So yeah, I mean, these are the kind of debates that can go on for centuries and every time someone tries to fix a problem that you've created in the past, it creates more problems when you fix it and you're going to make Bitcoin unusable if you jump in and think you need to micromanage it every time you need to micromanage it. So I'd say if there's some kind of limit at the moment, I'd say that was probably well thought through from the beginning and unless there's a good reason to change it. And even then, it would have to be pretty phenomenal reason to change it. I mean, just leave it alone. So yeah, that's my thoughts on the subject. It certainly doesn't seem like the kind of thing you're going to go to an exchange and say, I want Bitcoin with a new op return or that there's a consumer demand out there saying op return, op return, conspiratorially, we have these alleged allegations that it comes from chain code labs or somehow benefit someone somewhere. Like Ben says though, it does benefit open time stamps, which is Peter's project. So certainly there's benefit there as well. Does seem kind of radical though, which blends into the exit question. Ben, Ark, will this get done? Yes or no? And will it be now six months, two years or later? They say like free and open source is a sausage made in public in that it's gross and messy, but then you end up with a delicious sausage at the end of the process. So either however it goes, all the debate's good. It's good that people are getting riled up about it. It's good that people are making their voices heard and there's something of a social consensus which is happening. And that happens at times time in Bitcoin to remind everybody that there's the consensus that's reaching consensus in Bitcoin is more than just the core developers deciding to do something. So yeah, I'm all for the debate, the discussion and then people just gain more glued up on how Bitcoin operates and what these up codes can do and potentially do. It has funny been the sausage may be delicious, but it's often poisonous. And certainly all the food here in the United States is processed. It's not like the original food. So we have no idea what's going on. That goes back in many ways to what Satoshi was originally mad about with the financial crisis. They were selling bad loans in boxes that said good loans and he thought you should have a purity, a truth where you can connect to the Bitcoin. And that's what we're also losing so much with these finance guys taking over Bitcoin and holding so much of it is that people don't use it. People don't publish their address. There's this lack of connection to it. Victoria Jones, will we get opera turn unlimited and will we get it soon? Well, I think as Bitcoin gets older and becomes more established, it is actually quite hard to make changes. You need consensus now for a lot of these rule changes as I understand. And of course, in a situation where people are pretty much split on the idea, it's unlikely that you're going to get a strong enough vote one way or the other. So I don't know, I'd be surprised. Is it a big enough issue for them to want to make the change? I hope not. I like the way in which Bitcoin is structured to make these kinds of minor decisions, which is really at the end of the day harder to implement. So I suspect it will take longer. I hope it does anyway. Once again, it seems like a distraction for a feature that we don't need or don't want. We want privacy for Bitcoin. We want to debate privacy for Bitcoin. It seems like if this doesn't go through right away, we're going to debate this for two years and five years, whatever, and we want to waste our time that we could be spending talking about privacy solutions. This doesn't seem directly related to a privacy solution. So I'm not directly for it. I agree with the BitMex decision and Ben's wishy-washyness that, yeah, sure, we kind of need it. But do we need it now? Are we in a hurry? I don't think so. But I'm sure Peter would disagree. Moving on to issue two, the price, the price, the price, the price, and the price. The price of Bitcoin has gone up. It has decoupled from the stock market. It has left the crippled and devastated Trump economy behind maybe because of Trump's support. And he has his own coin. He has his own exchange. They have their own coin. His wife has her own coin. His kids probably have their own coins. And they're all thinking of new ideas and new coins to make. But why did Bitcoin go up? Maybe it's because of what TechDev has been saying the entire time on Twitter that this isn't even about the havin' cycle. It's the business liquidity cycle. And that Bitcoin went up because of that. Others think it's the second bump from the havin'ing. Still more, I think it's just irrational, crazy crypto. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the price, the price, the price of Bitcoin, which is, of course, the most important thing about Bitcoin. Every single article that I looked for this week, 200, 300 articles, the price, the price, the price, the price, the price, which again, they all said it was dead again. Well, it certainly, we're certainly in the period of time where it tends to go parabolic. What I find quite amusing though is that they're now getting excited about 160K figure. I mean, what was it two years ago? It was 500K. I mean, they're finally raining in their expectations. So yeah, I suspect over the next few months it's probably got a further to go, but then we're likely to probably have a slowdown as we traditionally do. So just be careful, folks. This is often the point at which people get excited and start to jump in. It's certainly a lot of businesses are jumping on the bandwagon right now, which I'm sure we're going to talk about. But yeah, just be careful. It may not be the retail investors getting excited this time. Maybe it's the companies about to go get stupid with it and then get their fingers, but you never know. I do recall major stories about BlackRock buying tons of Ethereum and then Ethereum's up 20% in a day. Other people have been investing in Bitcoin, Bitcoin Treasury after Bitcoin Treasury, whether it's a state or a city or a company. They're all in the black today. Ben, Arck, what do you think about the price? The price, the most important thing about Bitcoin. I'm not sure it is entirely decoupled. If you look at the Dow Jones, that's also kind of ticked up. I think a lot of it as Starship said in the chat is we had the first kind of tariff deal happen this week with Trump and the UK and that does give the markets a little bit of optimism that perhaps normality will resume. I feel quite bullish, actually. I feel like I thought the price was going to tank a lot more than it did and it didn't. For me, that's just a good sign that we have a whole bunch of Bitcoin-hodlo, the Bitcoin Hodlo, a bedrock is nice and strong, which is what you want. I think there will perhaps is just waking up to the fact that it needs Bitcoin and Bitcoin. There's also a lot of conversations which are happening which end up encompassing Bitcoin. We're talking about whatever I like, they'll end up talking about crypto currencies and then VZV Bitcoin. Just for, I'm not sure what's the word, but just not impact. What's the word? Old brain. But within the new cycle, there's a lot of excuses to speak about Bitcoin and I think the world is waking up to the fact that we really need this thing to exist. I think as well people are like subconsciously playing out or consciously playing out just the game theory of where currencies are kind of heading. For all these interests, which don't want to use the US dollar and the Petro dollar, they may try and create a brick or whatever else, but none of the bricks guys can trust each other. If you play out the game theory, it's like, Bitcoin doesn't make sense, just use Bitcoin. You don't want to use the US dollar. You need something which is like political and this thing works and it's tried and tested and just use Bitcoin. I kind of feel like the world is waking up to that, but then there has also been optimism just generally the markets over the UK, US deal. I don't know if I'd wait for a return to normality anytime soon, Ben. It is good on the tariff deal, the fact that they've made a deal with the UK implies that they're not actually going to hold the tariffs off for four years or longer, which means that they were lying when they said they wanted to ensure manufacturing and that was never a goal and that it was really just a way to shake down the other countries for allegedly a better percentage. In the UK deal, I think the UK got their side of the tariffs to go down from 10% to 3% so they can buy from the US. The US still has to pay a 10% luxury tax when buying from the UK so it's not really that great a deal deal. I don't know if it's related, but we had some oranges and they were quite yummy oranges, delicious oranges. But then on the label for the oranges, it said not to be sold in the EU and then it's like, why can't you sell them in the EU? And then there's a whole bunch of horrible chemicals on the skin of the orange, like pesticides. And I guess, you know, and I would Brexit it, you know, maybe a little bit more less regulated. We haven't got the EU regulations. We had a whole bunch of like agricultural things trying to be pushy parliament in the UK. So basically we can buy your roeded up meats and your terrible agricultural products in the US. So, star map if I sell out, but yeah, markets like it. It is interesting to happen as you see that, you know, you have local activists and you fight for all these rules and restrictions on your beef or your meat or whatever it may be, then international trade comes in, restructures, those restrictions. Of course, Trump allegedly said, Bobby is looking into it. So maybe we're going to clean up all of American beef and then still have excess, which we could then send to you as if the dirty things don't supply us with the excess. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the tariffs deal and of course the price of Bitcoin? I think I've already commented on the price haven't I? Yeah, the tariffs deal. Yeah, I mean, what was it? I was watching a video earlier where someone was saying that they put the tariffs up to, I can't remember what the figure was, but they put the tariffs up and then they brought them down, but they're still higher than they were before the whole Fiesco started. So it's still actually an increased tax on the world economy. So yeah, I mean, I've actually written my last newsletter was on Bitcoin and Free Trade where I commented on exactly this issue. I mean, you know, raising tariffs is ultimately a form of tax and it's a way of controlling inflation, which I think is what Trump is really after, in spite of all the drama around the whole subject. So yeah, so having a deal that actually puts the tariff way up then brings it down, but it's still higher than before, is still having the effect, but of course the end result gets lost in all the noise. So yeah, it's just drama for the sake of drama really. And yeah, I think the net effect is we're going to end up in a deflation crisis at some point, but you know, I've been saying that for a while. I feel like I'm sitting in a preview of the big short 2.0. We're just really, really early. It's like when you play a slot machine in Vegas, you have a bet of $5 and the game will save you, you won $1, but really you lost $4 and we keep doing that to ourselves and we don't seem to understand where that Shell Silver Steam poem as well where he trades all of his money down. He's like, I traded a dollar for three quarters because three is more than one, you know, and he just keeps going down, down, down, and we're just just delighted with our downward trades and our downward trajectory. It's great. We're going to wreck everything, but we still have the Bitcoin magic eight ball, the source of all truth and knowledge in this universe. Ben, ARC will be higher or lower this time next week. Got all bullish now. The fact that it broke 100k and there's a lot of resistance on its own, which is a sort of smash through. So yeah, I'm feeling pretty bullish on Bitcoin in general. So higher. So 600 billion here we go. Victoria Jones higher or lower? Yeah, it's looking pretty strong. I'm going to go with higher. And we'll ask the magic eight ball. Of course, shaking the ball could cause bubbles. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? It says, ask again later. Ask again later. That's the thing about predictors. Sometimes they don't want to respond. You have to think for yourself. Check out worldcryptonenetwork.com where you could think for yourself and watch more than 4,351 videos. You could watch them for three months, 21 days, and 21 hours. Consequently, moving on to issue three, 45 million dollars stolen from Coinbase users in the last week, according to Zach XBT. Coinbase users are falling prey to social engineering scams, costing users tens of millions of dollars in losses. But it doesn't matter to Coinbase. Ben, ARC we've talked about Coinbase before that maybe they haven't been hacked, but perhaps their lapse is allowing their users to be hacked. We've warned them about this for decades. Many people I know have lost all their coins on Coinbase and been responded to with a Ha Ha type email. Now it looks like it's coming back and many, many users, 45 million dollars worth of users are being stolen from Ben. ARC, what do you think? Nothing's real. Stroll refills. It's just the nature of the internet and AI and all the tools people have access to and all the scammers people who love, all the scouting tools people have access to nowadays. More and more. I don't like it, but I think the world needs to embrace public key cryptography. It's what makes Bitcoin possible. It's what makes NOSTA possible and it solves a lot of our problems for proving who's human and who's not human. I think we just need to embrace public key cryptography more. The scammers are getting more sophisticated and you get that email from Coinbase and it's all panicked and telling you to pull your funds and send it to this other address because this is the address it will be secure. You throw that email out to a million different people and then suddenly a couple of people are going to buy it and you're going to steal some money. It's a, I can see the why people, not the appeal, but why people end up scouring other people because it's pretty easy over the internet and it's not like face to face and you don't have that kind of instant social moral conundrum of scaring somebody which you would have traditionally when you try and scamp somebody and then you can hide your voice through AI and I can pretend to be Thomas and phone his family and tell them to send those secret stasha Bitcoin which I gave to them to this special address because Thomas is in trouble. I think it's probably not a bad thing that like we start to get scripts through the fact that we can't really trust anything on the internet and we need to embrace tools which allow humans to be able to trust each other more which ultimately is public key cryptography and Bitcoin is an offshoot. The revolution is public key cryptography and then you've got Bitcoin is very possible by that as a bunch of other stuff as well but the revolution is public key cryptography so that's from I'm excited about. Really like you're saying Ben it's all about the quality of these scammers. As I said I got that incredible email from Coinbase not really them with the words of the wallet right in the email but what's great about it is that it matches up with something that's actually on the Coinbase website. It says that they're going to migrate users out of their Web 3 wallet so if you saw that message on real Coinbase got an email about it your brain would connect the two and you'd be right. Also you can like there's these websites you can there's the Coinbase Health website whatever where if it ever has any downtime it'll publish it you know on it's the health of the status of the of Coinbase and you know for one of the reason they have to shut down outgoing transactions then they'll publish on this website and then for a scam it that's like that's great because that means you just keep an eye on that website and then whenever they throw out one of those warnings that they're going to have to pause withdrawing money from Coinbase that that is when you email all your customers or just email random people and just say hey that Coinbase account we've it says we pause transactions but we just want to tell you as someone we value as a value customer that in order to keep your coins secure could you please move into this address any coins you have all coins and any coins. I agree it's it's fun and easy to dunk on Coinbase but the problem is huge and real we had it at BTC Jam we had it at Perse everyone I know who works at Bitcoin companies has this problem Josh always talks about how his site Valtoro was always under attack from hackers it's much more real and prevalent than you think Victoria Jones what do you think about Coinbase and the scammers are they doing enough to protect their users. Well unfortunately Bitcoin is about self sovereignty which also comes with self responsibility and like so many things in life sometimes you have to get your fingers burnt before you learn and I think you know people themselves need to become more sophisticated because you know as Bitcoin gains traction and becomes the world reserve currency it completely disrupts how existing companies operate and you're not going to be able to create a companies or the government if you lose your Bitcoin by doing something silly so you know learn to see the signs don't respond to strange people messaging you on telegram offering you a job and then ask you to download some software in order to apply especially when it's a stranger that you've never met always be suspicious of someone who asks you to download software onto an app and you know just individuals are going to have to become more sophisticated themselves to figure out you know what they need to avoid and what they don't need to avoid and unfortunately at the moment we're still in the wild west with crypto and at any moment you can step in a land mine so you have to be careful and it's the price you pay for being in the crypto industry at all at the moment so yes Coinbase can do more but I think individuals need to do more themselves as well which is my tough love for this evening I agree and I expect for the problem to get bigger and for the number to be 10 times as much the next time we talk about this so stay safe out there but but just to add one more thing in there like part of the war's problem currently is that you know there were used a lot of consumers of news were for example we used to like journalist integrity and we used to kind of like legitimate new sources and then they're given this thing the internet which has all this data and this stuff which looks legitimate and they don't question that information enough so I think it's it's probably humans just like Victoria was saying they just need to get used to really not trusting anything on the internet you know you're watching something you're like can I trust this thing like is it crypto graphically yeah and then is it cryptographically like verifiable like at least that the you know even this show you know like soon it won't be hard to spin up one of these shows telling all anyone who's watching to buy X shit coin that we all fully support this shit coin and people need to get I mean public cryptography it gives us the tools to be able to verify that stuff so like you can go you know you could plausibly go to a platform where you can see that the content which is being delivered to you is being delivered by the people who you know and trust or within your trust circle or your so yeah the tools are there and we need to build those tools and bake them into the internet so we can actually be human on the internet and actually got to trust each other over the internet and it's good that people become less trusting in the data which they just see on the internet it's funny Ben I both look forward to and don't look forward to the large language model that they're going to build out of all of our content and as John Lennon said I don't believe in Beatles I just believe in me moving on to issue 4 pump.fun hits back at report that claimed 98% of meme coins on the fraudulent on the platform are fraudulent several million tokens have been launched on pump.fun since 2024 looking for the actual quote from the pump.fun spokesperson 98% of meme coins just like NFTs tweets Instagram posts trading cards and most art are worth little in the long run that's precisely the point what is important is the availability of a functioning marketplace connecting motivated buyers and sellers and the underlying cultural expression to which the market attributes or assigns value over time that's where the magic happens and that's where we learn what's truly valuable pretty incredible statement we should talk about it more also they say that the meme coin sector hit its crescendo in January when Trump promoted his own Trump meme coin on social media of course as a musician I hear this crescendo and I think not as it says here for a noun the loudest point reached in gradually increasing sound but as an adverb adjective or verb as a thing that is increasing in loudness furthermore the merriam webstreet dictionary agrees with me as gradual increase being the number one definition and this musician's web page that I found talks about the trouble of this phrase and how wrong it sounds as they're saying the word they need does not exist which is why crescendo is constantly misused but I agree with them musicians say crescendo is the climb not the summit meanwhile back to this fantastic statement about 98 percent of meme coins of Victoria Jones what do you think about his statement where he kind of claims like you just have to let us operate this market where 98 percent of people lose money because someday they might be valuable and of course freedom of expression free speech and wave the flag. Well also ironic is that kind of statement isn't actually all that unique I mean I've got again a newsletter on my website called Bitcoin and the South Sea Bubble and one of the things I talk about is exactly you know how that came into being and of course it was right at the beginning of the invention of financial markets when people had no idea what they're really getting into and and crypto is kind of the same way you know we're inventing a whole new form of money and what happens in those situations is people get really embroiled in the excitement they think they've got this new thing and it can never go wrong but of course when it does go wrong it's devastating and in fact there's a quote from that time of the South Sea Bubble where you know people were setting up new companies right left and center in fact one advertises themselves as a company designed to do something of great import but no one to know what it is. I mean it's kind of along the same lines and that was like 300 years ago but it was at the beginning of the invention of our current financial system and of course we're right at the beginning of this current financial system and of course tough lessons will learn you know the the South Sea Bubble it deceived many people including Isaac Newton who was trying to manage the Bank of England at the tight well he was he was managing the wall mint at the time so you know it's easy to have some kind of propaganda website that looks very official someone an important person they've managed to create a lot of money obviously clearly through fraudulent means in order to be important and sound important but of course people who listen to that kind of thing with no understanding or no context you know think that this is a great new thing and it's going to make them rich and of course it's a recipe for disaster in fact yeah I mean you've got the same kind of thing going on at the moment that happened just before the 1929 stock market crash you know people borrowing money in order to buy stocks because they think the only way it can ever go is up and of course once you're using that kind of leverage it's just a recipe for disaster so yeah we really need to be careful here folks it's exciting but once you know at the beginning of Bitcoin when we all got excited about this new form of money it was great because it wasn't actually possible to short Bitcoin until 2017 it wasn't possible to leverage Bitcoin until Michael Sala came along especially in the traditional financial system and of course now you've got the ETFs you know Bitcoin it is a long way away from where it wasn't the beginning where everyone was doing really well and all of this leverage is is a recipe for disaster and statements like this don't help the situation because it misleads people so yeah okay you can experiment with stuff but you know when you experiment with the wrong thing you know the caps the fox is going to come home to all the chickens are going to come home to use at some point so you need to be careful it's really interesting to hear him use the crack house defense in reverse as a positive thing that we've built this fun house that you can't get out of that you get trapped in that you lose all your money in that 98% of our users seem to lose money but you should allow us to keep running this fun house because it's their fault they came in the door right you know when we set it up it's a huge trap everyone lose and he kind of right but you know and like he said though last week or a few weeks ago victory with Hex if it mirrors the existing financial system if we say this pump dot fun crack house is no difference than say a casino crack house or even worse a sports betting crack house or if we want to go to a stock market or a bonds crack house that perhaps all of these are disasters where you walk in with your money and walk out confused about you know and it's gone let's go to Ben arc what do you think about the claim that 98% of people lost money on pump dot fun but it was a good time yeah only 98 percent of the people on here is scamming you it's fine you know I'm operating this platform and 98% of the people in here are scammers but you know it's worth it for the two percent who aren't scammers actually I think we all know that it's probably a lesson two percent of these mean coins which aren't scams and yeah we could all like us here and our audience members we're all pretty much seasoned kind of big coins we've been in space for a while if we wanted to we could all go shit coin and and make some money but we don't because morally we know it's a bad thing it's like you're removed from the person you're ripping off and like I said before you it's not like a direct scam you don't have to go knock on people's door and try and swindle you know old ladies out of their pension funds or whatever but it's still a scam and we don't do that and we all give ourselves a part on the back for not not indulging ourselves in scams and just trying to enrich ourselves and these people should be held to account and we should just point the finger at them and say you are a scammer and you shouldn't be because it's bad don't be a scammer it's a moral and it's wrong but yeah I think that that number is is too generous it's 99.9999 percent if everything on pump fund is an absolute scam and it's people just money grabbing and the world has is you know there's kind of any thoughts within the world now just to kind of grab what you can when you can and it's kind of terrifying in a way and but yeah props to all of us a lot for not being scammers and and sticking with Bitcoin which the main event and actually being here to try and make the world a better place as opposed to just trying to rip people off and and take that money for producing actually literally nothing at this point Ben I don't think anybody is going to be punished but I think we can look forward to two kinds of YouTube videos in the future the first will be that long deep dive where they bring up each CEO by name and talk about what their company did and compare them like a history the second one and I think this will be far more horrifying I will be that guy that does the big charts where everything changes and internet explorer goes above Mozilla and then Mozilla goes above internet explorer and I'll be like who has the biggest scam and I'll be like mount gocks and then FTX and it'll be like pumped off fun and then there'll be something better and bigger and it'll get bigger and then some other thing will crater and collapse and it'll be really sad because it'll be all lost money and usually retail money usually normal people's money lost I mean you're you're this back kind of behavior is also legitimized by the fact that you know your president right now is just a really mean coin and scam to be a 10 billion out of people wherever it is out of their uses and it's just pumped the hell out of it throughout being president as well so there's it it gives other people it's like well if the president of the US can do it why can't I do it and it gives other people like a moral justification for running these scams which is very unfortunate but we'll talk about it more later but one trucking company instead of investing 20 million dollars into advertising lobbying new trucks jobs things like that they've invested the 20 million dollars into Trump coin with the idea that they can use this to lobby him to reopen trade to Mexico which is of course good for everybody because free trade is good but let's move on to the lightning round where we have some quick issues Goldman Sachs plans to tokenize US treasury bonds and money market funds to enable 24 seven on chain trading finally catching up with the Bitcoin market Victoria what do you think about the latest bank to join Bitcoin Goldman Sachs and the idea of 24 seven stock trading well they clearly want to compete with Bitcoin don't they so you know Bitcoin has an advantage allowing people to trade 24 seven so they've got to jump on the bandwagon so yeah fair enough Ben Arck what do you think Goldman Sachs another Bitcoiner? yeah as Victoria said like the you know the world's catching up to the tools we have and it's going to make use of them hopefully it'll be on Bitcoin and also the Ethereum thing but yeah the world's catching up and it's good it's it's it's why Bitcoin's here it's here to make the digital economy more efficient and what that's our own it is so we have breaking news Alex Mccinsky founder of Celsius has been sentenced to 12 years in prison I'm sure you all remember him he was offering Bitcoin type loans he was using all of the Bitcoiner and Libertarian Languages banks are not your friends so on and so forth in his speeches Ben Arck what do you think about Mccinsky getting 12 and like I said his use and reuse of Bitcoin or propaganda which we've also seen mirrored in some large businessmen these days Mr. Affinity Scanning which we were talking about before you know you piggyback off all the great altruistic work of as Bitcoiners you've been here for a while and other Bitcoiners in the space when you piggyback off that and then you use it to run your scam and you say all the talking points banking the unbanked blah blah blah but I really I was amazed at this this whole there's a whole universe of Bitcoin so what it was was I was talking to someone about Alan Betts this this guy Bitcoiner well you know and and then that he said oh no I was heard about Alan Betts in the Bitcoin in the Bitcoin world and I was thinking that's the makes sense of course people have heard of Bitcoin and then I realized he existed in this different universe where he goes to these different Bitcoin conferences where they talk about all these affinity scams of layer one layer two tokens blah blah blah and then he was going around saying to people I've ever heard of Alan Betts and the people are like oh I've got my by my coin and and then I realized he's like he's like in this different version of reality this is like ulterior Bitcoin which is which is some people existing which isn't our version of reality it's their version of reality and honestly if I when you to the space I could easily get kind of I could get you know distracted by and I could think that maybe that's the main event over there oh crazy crazy these affinity scams oh Ben wait wait do you see what I have planned for later Victoria Jones what do you think about a Celsius founder 12 years in jail oh it's not long enough is it really I mean you know if you think about how many how many years people get for murder and the number of lives that he will have destroyed using that scam I mean you know I've been in some chat groups where people have been harmed by Celsius and some people have lost their life savings it's absolutely heart wrenching so yeah he deserves lot longer in my my estimation it is true we do seem to punish violent crime much more than financial crime but it destroys people's lives it takes away their life savings what they worked for all their lives and sometimes it's not in their fault they invested well the company was just a scam allegedly just revealed Finzhen explicitly told prosecutors that samurai wallet wasn't a money transmitter due to its non custodial design DOJ prosecuted the developers anyway suppressing the school pletory evidence for a year sounds like a really bad deal for samurai wallet developers Victoria Jones what do you think about the new evidence in the samurai case that showed their their original setup was correct they were not money transmitters I can't say it surprises me you know if if the if the law system has an agenda they've decided you're a criminal they just need to find a way to get you then they will and yeah I do feel sorry for samurai it's very unfair and arc samurai wallet illegal all the time drag through the mud yeah so illegal illegal all time not legal it seems like their original setup where they were having the funds was non custodial that they weren't holding customer funds so therefore they couldn't be money transmitting it but the customers were breaking the law they were using the samurai wallet software allegedly so the samurai guys are kind of getting off it seems like this this evidence shows that they should have gotten off a lot sooner uh that the DOJ withheld the Finzhen advice Finzhen said you know like it or not perhaps similar to hex the setup is clean it may be complicated but it's clean and then you know the people then used samurai to join coins or whatever it was yeah I don't know I mean like I feel like the wall of regulations is is a lot more likes than it it was because as I said before your president is running some crypto scams so you know it's kind of you know keep it nice and clear clear for him so you can operate without being sensed jail because that would be a dilemma for the president of US against sensed jail um so regulation seems to be very hands off at the moment I mean if you look at it like in if you facilitate criminality in many other fields like you know we live under the rule of law in societies and if you facilitate criminality usually under the rule of law you get fucked for it so um it's good it's you know it's good it's good it's good they're fine and they're not getting sent to prison but um yeah I don't know well as Keith Overnman says all the times quoting this Harvard professor if you're if you're a really big criminal and you're a elected president the only way to stay out of jail is to die in office holding the reins of power if you lose the reins of power you go to jail therefore you have to do what's necessary as we enter the political section of the show trump crypto advisor david baili friend of the show bitcoin magazine publisher i remember how many times he's published stories about mad bitcoins the world crypto network probably ln bits uh what was it a tally coin all the things uh what was a pro tip chris ellis's work with the full nodes we receive so much coverage in bitcoin magazine we're just dripping dripping and covered with the wetness of this coverage it doesn't exist anyway he's raised three hundred million dollars for a bitcoin investment firm they're calling it knock a moto uh i've heard that before or let's me have a story used to have it purses called knock emotos uh it's going to go public after raising three hundred million dollars uh just like everybody else they're gonna hold bitcoin and you should invest in them because i don't know and this has something to do with bitcoins and holding your own keys like satoshi said because i don't know and they named it after satoshi because the same way they named those cars after nicolay tesla because it's just blasphemy it's just burned down the names of great people they should have called it Jesus victoria jones what do you think about this fantastic new investment vehicle knock a moto which you too uh could invest in for some reason yeah i mean it's uh all part of the problem that i commented on earlier isn't it really it's um a case of extra use of leverage in order to invest in bitcoin and of course people like it because um it's a way of investing in bitcoin and it's pension funds but you know the whole thing's gonna blow up at some point mark my words well it's it's sad that i want to hope for that but we've gotten to the point where people with money are coming in and making more money and it's not that interesting like it's not like victoria said the crypto revolution in the bottom up and the the little people that andre is used to talk about the needed to use the wallets and why we need satoshi's and sub satoshi's and lightning and all these things uh so that these guys can you know browse with a couple of uh family investments a couple of large corporations get some big fish and i get the funds to cover the fees on this and to make the money uh banark what do you think invest in nakamoto because invest in jack mallers because invest in micro strategy because hired at 40 uh turned out to be a scammer but these guys have good credentials i mean that there is some you know locked in capital in this world like like for toys with the pension funds and people who have like equity in band guard or whatever where they can't shift it to you know they can't just go buy some bitcoin and hold it in a hardwae so these tools need to exist and it's funny because a few years ago we'd all be uploading such a thing we'd be like oh it's brilliant you know finally traditional finances away from investing in bitcoin that's great woo and now we're all very pessimistic about it but um there needs to be out more micro strategy start there i've actually got a lot of time for daily like he's always really good towards and given his coverage and free tickets to the conferences and um he bought me off you know like he gave me that he gave me some free tickets to the conferences he gave me the VIP thing the free IP tickets so we could go and hang out with the people who paid 20 grand for that tickets um but no i mean he's he's not had the audience capture thing in bitcoin he's never retried so he's just never really tried to appeal to the audience he's just um like he has embraced different arguments from different you know smaller factions within bitcoin and i think that's kind of cool uh but yeah you know i got a lot of time for the guy i think he's all right he's a good he's a good guy he's a young guy he's got a sunlight trump beautiful man he's a beautiful man in the future i think they'll write articles that no one did more to assign bitcoin and align it with right wing causes than David Bailey which will probably set us back like a hundred years and this this okay this this is also this will be left to right we need to be in right there in the middle where we have both these people working for both sides which is the obvious choice right if you're looking at it from above but if you're looking at it really up close you would say in the short term we could gain in the long term we might get fucked this is also yeah this is this is true but that he did also publish some of my articles we very left the articles about bitcoin and bitcoin you know from a less perspective and you sold yourself for a cappuccino we've been through this but he but then he published he published I had that open it at his varfakis he published that that was good as speakers who are like Ben they're like they like a free coffee and they put them in with guys who have ten thousand dollars to burn on a conference ticket or perhaps more maybe they go it goes up every 15 minutes as well which is also the sign that you're getting a great deal and you're you're on the up and up conference ticket could just be three hundred bucks instead it just raised to three fifty oh it just raised to four hundred you should have jumped on it and once again all these people think they're so smart with their you know who smart this guy Trenton T. Shavers pirate at 40 I talk about this all the time no one has any memory in the world anymore July 23rd 2013 that was a long time ago look it up in your books he raised at least seven hundred thousand bitcoin micro strategy strike strategy David Bailey strategy seven hundred thousand bit coins it was a Ponzi scheme and he went down so that's pirate at 40 that's why I talk about it all the time seven hundred thousand of Victoria Jones to be asked you already I don't know Nakamoto invest David Bailey Benz bought off for coffee have you had the coffee yet no he's not bought me coffee but then again I didn't invent something like Noster so you know my time will come and finally unfortunately one more political story because we have to like Ben said a Trump coin 58 58 you could fit him in a room crypto wallets have made millions on Trump's mean coin while seven hundred and sixty four thousand presumably retail investors have lost money the Trump tokens surged in popularity after being tied to the start of Trump's second term and especially the recent contest have dinner with the president simply bribe him with enough Trump coin and you your business your company or perhaps even your terrorist group could have dinner with the president if you just pay enough money it's obviously corrupt it's obviously very questionable morally and so forth but it is where he is Ben what do you think 58 people made some sweet money on Trump coin I mean you know it's in a circle and his friends and family and whoever else you go to the inside info too but it's just classic insider trading it's just amazing that it's a president doing it and it's funny listening to commenters from the US and it's like oh you see the problem is that we don't pay the president's enough money so that's why they have to scam people because we need to pay president's more more money and it's like no you shouldn't have presidents who scam people like well Trump waved his right waved his right to a salary anyway so that's not the reason yeah yeah yeah that guy's making bank on on his presidency but the the the the the worry is it from what I can tell from the listening to some of the commentators out there is that it kind of changes raises the bar and then normalizes some of this behavior and it's like you know you'd be interesting to see whoever comes next like what they do you know will they release their meme coin and will I just be a thing now which leaders of the free will do release meme coins and scam people it's hard to imagine anything topping dinner with the president I'm sure we talked about this theoretically in the past of things that you could offer with NFTs and how I think they're good for marketing and so on and so forth but I never imagined this quickly that the president would have a meme coin and if you bought enough of it you could have dinner with it and I mentioned that example early of the truckers buying in instead of lobbying finally in a disaster story I want to thank Bitcoin 2025 conference for sending me a free ticket not that they know who I am or know who this show is or any other of my work but like Ben says it's truly a horror show lineup we've got David Bailey Bitcoin magazine friend of the show Ross Ulbrich the dread pirate Roberts a complete horror show vice president JD Vance of the two Trump sons Dawn Jr. and Eric and the second row Michael sailor I don't know if I know this guy maybe he's from the Fed and of course Jack Mollers wearing his hoodie the lone cypherpunk and Synthy Synthia something the senator mullin something like that but we've got all these right wing speakers hey look Adam back there's a guy I know so I guess that guy I didn't know is David Sacks the White House AI and crypto's are also from PayPal the early PayPal mafia it's really interesting so you go to view all you can see more speakers or you can see the same speakers again then we get down to kind of the you know second level of speakers the Winkelvij safety and Caitlin Long all these kind of people the Trumpers Dan Moore head who can air a capital he hates me and look at this trace mayor how about that trace has a resurfaced a well to trace at the convention I don't know if I'm going to catch his speech it seems like there's a lot of speeches here I'm not great at catching them a secondly I would say if you're in Bitcoin change your name to Aaron they'll put you at the top of this list this list is sorted alphabetically a shout out to Aaron Von Weardham a Bitcoin magazine friend of the show as other people perhaps we recognize in here but if your name didn't start with a you're not on the list and if you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the list I guess it's gone but there used to be a button that said view more and it took you to buy tickets so the list ends at sea it's incredibly right wing looking convention even now looking at it with a free ticket I don't know that I want to go I guess you only get you only get like ABC so you've got to be called Aaron or Ben I'm not there but then or a Chris let's be fair this is the this is the first one which haven't been invited to I don't know why but yeah yeah it's pretty right wing yeah it seems like unfortunately Ben they're not going are they even have your open source stage and the thing where you teach all the people for free and all the fun stuff that we used to kind of that kind of got corrupted by by the by the Americans they they turned the upper source stage into like I don't know it was it grew organically in in the conference where we got some we got some tables and we put some tables together wheelbass we got some tables we got some tables and put them together and then and then we had like a free and open source area and then it was kind of growing nice and organically and then it seemed to just kind of get a little bit co-opted by some of the you know American kind of thought leaders who get paid a bunch of money for for doing the the open source area I mean sure they'll have a sort of open source area I'm sure but then yeah I don't know he's always been good to me so I don't know Ben I'm watching this this whale class class war whale propaganda thing with whale pass it just seems sick to me I think we've gone very far away from what's funny about the whale passes and this is because we you know if you if you're speaking now you do you do you do in something you get you get you're like is that a russet brand you get you get you get you get you the full access ticket right so actually in the whale area of the Bitcoin conference which people pay good money for thousands for their whale pass tickets then and the whale is a bit shit right but then within the whale area you have the deep dive area which is like the whale whale area where it's like the whales of the whales which you have to pay that's where you pay like 20 grand the ticket whatever and then when you go in there there's like people like having vehement intravenously and eating octopus and doing all the things which you imagine the rich folks to do and but I just kind of always felt sorry for like the whale pass people because they invest all this money in a whale ticket and then I just sort of stood around in this kind of crappy area and then not like they haven't actually got access to the the sanctum sanctorum you know the the inner circle but yeah it's quite a whole holiday at the Hollywood parties you get into VIP but then there's a second VIP group as well and I'm reminded of some kind of scene in the bible where Jesus came back and he found the money the temple all full of money changers and he threw them out on the street rather violently I think you should do that Thomas I think you should charge in there chuck the tables over chuck them out in the street this is a socialist coin this is a libertarian coin this is not for you capitalists this is not for you institutions it's not for state big state it's a dirty coin it's used for drugs and nonsense on the internet and eventually you're going to realize that and you're all going to change your tune and there'll this be this conventions go up conventions go down corporations get interested in Bitcoin corporations lose interest in Bitcoin just as soon as they make it illegal again there needs to be there does need to be like a big corporate conference which exists in the world I mean I kind of feel a conference that's a bit scammy full stop in our days because you know they make so much money but then he's there doesn't need to be in the world a big corporate conference and I mean you saw the photos you could meet Russell brand accused of rape you could meet the Saudi gentleman or whatever the guys in the robes seem like they're very well off it's a it's very different than that guy in the hoodie in the picture you see it's like but the guy gets to Jack Males is like but he's but he's also he's just one guy yeah but he's tradition of finance isn't he I mean like I like Jack Males but he is also from like this big family from Chicago and he's pretty traditional so he's like he's like a token hoodie guy he's like our hoodie guy he's not he's not your proper if I crypto anarchist guy from Prague like hacking these you know Jack Males is that their version of a hoodie it's also great to see Russell rectilist suit that's always what we dreamed of a Victoria Jones what do you think they say that we're too salty in the chat they say they threw an atom back for tech credibility and Dusty Grace says Thomas should go in a toilet I will say can I can I also say can I also say can I also boggles and throw them out can I can I also say about one more thing about Adam back right this is why I love Adam back is it doesn't matter how exclusive you make the exclusive area Adam back would just walk around the conference stopping and chatting to absolutely everybody he just wants to literally just one of us and he wants to hang out with Bitcoiners talk about Bitcoin stuff and very approachable if you see him the conference go up to him solo and he he spends you know obviously has to go to the little whale area for like an hour or something but then the rest of the time he's just walking around chatting to people what a good dude got a blood God bless Adam back I don't even know what to do with this kind of an incredible lineup I know that you know last time martin and I were at the Miami Bitcoin conference thrown by the same group and we saw Tucker Carlson and Andrew Yang backstage maybe this time I could meet a Trump of Victoria Jones should I bring around like an autograph book and a long pen should I try to collect these signatures I mean who's who among conservative commentators this guy JD Vance raised by opium dealers or some kind of thing hillbilly harrowing he'll be there I mean what we've always dreamed of this crazy senator Cynthia something she'll be there and these finance guys the PayPal guy remember I talk all the time about PayPal could have been Bitcoin this is one of the guys who decided not to make PayPal Bitcoin we should listen to him about our Bitcoin information this is why we should get our Bitcoin truth yeah it's all gone a bit commercial hasn't it I think at some point someone spotted the potential for gathering people together because of course in the old days when people had hardly heard of Bitcoin you know you have the smaller conferences that I've kind of been overtaken by the big guys really and it's a shame because those little conferences they were they were nice places to go to and some of them still exist but obviously they're not as they're not as well known and of course you get a completely different sort of clientele these big conferences I have to admit I've not actually been to any of the big ones it just doesn't appeal to me at all whereas every year I will go to Mallorca because I think that's where the VIP group is if you really want if you really want to meet a group of VIP Bitcoiners you need to go to Mallorca blockchain days that's what I say this is the real Bitcoin conferences right here and Dres and Tenoppless in 2013 explaining Bitcoin to an empty room that's what it was like but not anymore and we'll see Ben we'll see if I get into the whale area or the VIP whale area or the whale area beyond the whale area but we're running out of time Ben do you have a prediction or a story of the week go ahead just another story about Adam back the last time I saw Adam back right probably in there he had like their investment in blockchain 200 million they got 200 million investment in blockchain not long ago like six months ago or something the last time I saw him was in an airport and we were studying the economy queue together and he had his rocks I can't and I was like Adam I just I love you you know like because so many of these Bitcoin pricks when they they get their VC round 400 million or whatever they get and then they're in the first class queue and they just go straight through not out of back he's just in the economy queue just okay just starting back that's enough you don't need to get in the the first class whale area queue in the airport so it's probably the best argument of him being satish actually maybe it's just good upset yeah he's just like you don't ignore me I'm just a regular dude exactly I don't need anything even if I have one million bitcoins yeah yeah god bless him um story of the week but I haven't really got anything I mean nah just cool I'll have bit stuff are we launch the auctions on loss.com that's kind of cool so if you've got an astro identity you can now sell that nostril identity you can put up for auction on loss.com and we had a bunch of people like buying up a bunch of nostril identities I think in preparation for that someone bought like miss aides at nostril.com like miss aides are going to come along and buy their nostril identity but I thought it was kind of interesting how they reacted to it but yeah that's that's something we rolled out but yeah pop from that just yeah nothing really and see what you've been watching a bunch of 90s movies I've spent the week watching a bunch of 90s movies developing on the computer I want to watch falling down because that was on Netflix and then I was like I just went to this thing of watching 90s movies and like a mediocre 90s movie is far superior to the movies we have now and I was thinking it's probably because like because of the restrictions of the hardware so you had the saliloid film it was noisy it means you had to do like proper sound engineering and you create this kind of dreamscape because you know our reality like what Merk said the editor we edited the godfather though we have a little editor in our brain he edits things for us you know he like increases the sounds of important noises when we need to hear them and and then when you flick your eyes for one you know your eyeballs for one side to the other you don't see a swish because there's a little editor cutting things which you don't need out of your brain and our version of reality is edited and I think movies on saliloid and when they had to actually like do some proper sound engineering lighting and all that means on censorship you lose that when you have the the decent hardware and the digital cameras and everything else and the modern movie industry is just terrible like watch a mediocre 90s movie it's far better than they shit you'll see you know anyway yeah nothing's doing a bit going yeah falling down to movie that's changed a lot over the years it's really interesting but yeah and there are a lot better movies in the past I saw a great thing recently it was like a scene from like a really old movie and it like a gorg of forgetting but one of those big ones where they're pulling the s-finks through the the thing and it's all the real extras it's a crowd full of romance interiors and they're all dressed that way and it said we could still make movies like this if we wanted to and you just don't want to I don't think it's going to happen I think film is that because why would you spend 250 grand on like real reals of saliloid film to make one of our own? It's a real extra it's like a movie like Ron or Lawrence of Arabia what makes it so real when you look at the scope of the film is that everyone there's an extra that at some point we said go and all these guys went off on samurai uniforms in Japan riding around it was real and it took a lot of takes it took a lot of money and it's easier to do it on the computer now so I don't think we'll ever see that again like you say been more than like ten people gathered to be extras why would you just use the crowd software Victoria Jones you have a prediction a story of the week or comments on movies of the old days yeah well I mean it goes back to fiat currency doesn't it really I mean the thing is we've devalued the currency so much we couldn't afford to make movies like that anymore you know so and I often use that as and it's gifts to my daughter you know when they get worried about the fact that World War Three is going to break out and it's like the only reason they could have World War One and World War Two is because they're the only they were able to devalue the currency at that point you're not actually able to do that now um so um you know and that by itself will restrict our ability to do that you know unless some man man releases the weapons that have already been made but our ability to make more of them is very restricted now so yeah that'll be my comment it would be interesting if some dictator or something had their romantic idea to recreate some of these old films and to line up the actual troops and to get the actual costumes and to use the kind of funding that it takes to literally organize an army which is what it was like when Kubrick and other people were working with these massive massive extras and sets uh finally just a closing response stage just want to say uh congratulations to the new Pope and American Pope Leo the 14th he's from Chicago he's a white socks fan they have pictures that have surfaced on the internet that he went to the world series how cool is that he's also kind of pissing off the right wing and the conservatives seems like he's very supportive of immigrants migrants poor people all the things that unfortunately the the mainstream conservatives don't seem to support uh and finally I have this little toy I got when I visited the Vatican it's a Swiss guard so shout out to the Swiss guard who guard the Pope how fun is that but thanks to everybody for joining us thanks for joining us in the chat give us a thumbs up down below and subscribe if you haven't already until next time bye