The Bitcoin Group, the American Original, for over the last 10 years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Josh Shigalla from thestandard.io. Well, good evening, everybody. Jesse from Dr. Orange Pill. Well, well, what up? Here are Mad Bitcoins looking mad myself. Mad Bitcoins. Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Evening Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Moving on to issue one. Issue one, Bitcoin institutional adoption accelerates as ETF filing show investor appetite. Multiple filings came in yesterday for Bitcoin-bond ETFs, one being to invest in micro strategy convertible securities. Even Vivek Ramaswamy from the famous Doge Department of Government Efficiency has his own Bitcoin ETF, as he's attempting to remarket micro strategy shares as convertible securities. Everybody in Wall Street is getting into Bitcoin. Josh Shigalla, what do you think about our new friends in the institutions? Yeah, institutions will do what they do. It's always been, this has always been my criticism of flight. There's not enough women in Bitcoin. So the note free and open source software. If women want to get in, they get in. If men want to get in, if people with blue hair want to get in, it doesn't matter. Well, I can't stop them and I shouldn't. And that's the beauty. If, you know, it is a little bit worrying once you get these regulated institutions playing funny games by re-hypophicating holdings and calling it something else. And then saying you've got a security of a security. And he is a bag of different things. And we're going to triple a rate them. And actually there's not that much yield. And suddenly we have a world financial crisis. But, but yeah, it's, it's, it is what it is. I think obviously it's good for everybody holding because, hey, there's only 21 million Bitcoin. So let's go. But yeah, I worry a little bit of too much control being in one single pocket, which is actually worse for proof of stake coins. Proof of work doesn't really bother people if there was big whales involved. But proof of stake is, is hard. It does seem like the end of the line for our friends who haven't invested in Bitcoin yet. You say, okay, well, you didn't get in it before that guy. You didn't get in before that guy. But then when you didn't get in before BlackRock or some giant institution, they're going to buy so many Bitcoins. They're going to take up so much of the market that when you get it after that, you know, your number, million, five hundred and seventy two. So it's going to be really bad for normal adoption. But again, now maybe they'll hear about it. Now maybe they'll trust it. All the institutions are, like Josh said, buying it, leveraging it, creating new things. Jesse, what do you think about the institutions? Are they our friends? Our friends. Well, I don't know if they're our friends. I have been saying for years just to people generally that America definitely knows how to make money. And whenever there's an opportunity for money, their American companies and big American organizations and entrepreneurs are going to dive in. So I always kind of thought America was going to be a leader in the Bitcoin space as a new kind of internet. So in that sense, I think it's really good. Sort of like what Josh says though, I don't know, you know, I don't know what happens when, you know, because like with the stock market itself, I don't know how much they can actually own or control maybe five percent. But I don't know what that means for like exit liquidity when you start getting into high numbers. We're not there yet. Right now it's like a accumulation phase. So it's good for all of us. And it in a long term, I guess it always be good as long as people continue to adopt. But it's an interesting thing. I think that besides the derivative stuff, they're probably going to start doing some other kinds of things that might be beneficial, like being able to buy things on the internet quickly or being able to easily send it sort of in maybe off-chain or side-chain way that will be inexpensive, AKA lightning, but it might not be, it might be more centralized in that way. You know, I don't really know, but long, long term, I think it's a nice thing. Just for general adoption. It is to have great to have America and specifically New York and Wall Street. If you've been in Bitcoin long enough, you remember the BitLicens, Super Nintendo, Loskey, and how they attempted pretty much to ban Bitcoin in New York City, which is one of the huge financial centers of the world. And then now they have completely switched sides. They're building their own ETFs. They're buying into this whatever convertible securities from MicroStrategy. Josh, did you have more of this? Well, I just laughed at Super Nintendo enough. I forgot about that. But, no, I mean, I don't know if they switched sides. They're still not on-chain friendly. They've still got their silly BitLicens, which is almost impossible to pass. And you need to employ Super Nintendo Loskey, or he's not the Super Nintendo anymore. He's got his own firm. He's got his own private firm. You can employ it. Yeah, it's a success. Like guys, people who write the rules always seem to be the people who run the thing, yeah. Yeah, yeah. For those that don't know. You know, he is a guy that, to take you back a little bit, he's a guy that basically said, oh, we need a BitLicens. Everyone on Reddit was like, fuck you. I forget stuff. We don't need it. And then he said, no, we need it. And so he went out and created when he was in charge of the regulation over there. He created this license. And then he quit after the license had been created to create a law firm that would help you pass the license. And then he said, you know, that's not what you want to do. I mean, like, there's nothing more corrupt than Mafias. Or, uh, than that basically it was, it's amazing to see it. It's amazing that it never got pulled up by this, by any sort of government employee or anyone else just to say, hey, this is just sketchy. I actually ran into a little bit of problem. I live in New York, so I had this Christmas. I was going to send my nephew is a nieces, some Bitcoin for the first time. And I was going to do it through cash out because it was the easiest way. I was going to send a little bit of ability to send Bitcoin. You can only do it lightning. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't send my, I couldn't send it to him because I live in New York. You can't use lightning still because of the bit license. So yeah, there's definitely still some stuff happening here. The other side of that though, just as a little button. Nobody in New York got hit by it got, you know, screwed by FTX. Nobody in New York was on Celsius because it wasn't legal here. So there's, there's another side of the argument. If you're, as an libertarian front, you say, well, you know, you can do whatever you want. But, you know, there was that side of it too. At least nobody got screwed, but I don't like having a bit of license here. And I hope we can do something to change that soon. And it probably will just because, again, the ETFs of Wall Street, they're finally getting on board. I definitely think that would be Losky's point as well. When he's talked about in his speech, he was with the Japanese regulators when Mt. Gawks fell. And he said to him, we're here. We're happy to help you with Mt. Gawks. And they said, what is Mt. Gawks? So for them to be so far behind and to not be even trying to protect people or regulate things for a person that believes in regulation, obviously, strange for this show. But it would be, you know, that's the argument that's the side of it. By a group of jobs, I think it'll be taught in schools and textbooks. They'll talk about how they regulated it. Then they started firms to profit off it and just how obvious it was. But also, that is how the system works. That is how things go by. Victoria, what do you think? The enemy of my enemy is my enemy. We are new friends in the institutions. Everything's fine now. All is forgotten. No, not at all. I think we're building up to the next FOMO, where all of the companies kind of jump on board. But of course, you know, those of us who've been around a while realize that this is just a precursor to the next bust. Because part of the problem with these companies, you know, with them buying Bitcoin, especially with leverage with the convertible securities. I mean, the article had a chart of how well Micro Strategies shares have done compared to actually Bitcoin. Over the last year, and it's all because, you know, he's, he's raising debt on his company in order to buy this Bitcoin. And of course, one of the biggest problems we have in the traditional financial markets is a debt bubble. You know, most of us who understood going to Bitcoin a long time ago, got into Bitcoin because we understood what the dynamics were behind that and how that creates great instability in the financial system. And so actually the last thing you want is for all these companies to be buying Bitcoin on leverage to then have the debt bubble burst. And it's going to be catastrophic for everyone, including the Bitcoiners, because you know, when the debt is going to be cut off, that is catastrophic for everyone, including the Bitcoiners, because you know, when the debt bubble burst, everyone's going to be selling their Bitcoin on to pay off their debt, you know, because at the end of the day, the world reserve currency is still the dollar. And that's what you need in order to pay off the debt. And so, you know, we are building up to a terrible crisis if people are not careful. And one of the things I often tell, you know, family and friends is, you know, definitely investing Bitcoin. It's really important to have some, but don't have everything in it, because I really think, you know, we're building up to some kind of crisis like that. And it's just impossible to predict when it will happen, but it just gets more and more unstable by the day. And there is going to be a point. And of course, at the moment, you know, everyone's talking about the fact that Trump is pro Bitcoin. Well, Trump might be pro Bitcoin, but he's not president yet. And he's also got to convince the rest of the Republican party that this is a good idea and the rest of Congress. So, you know, we've got all of that to play out. And so, of course, you know, all of these companies, I mean, I wonder sometimes who runs them and some of the employees they have, you know, incredibly naive without really understanding what they're getting involved in. And, you know, admittedly, many economists warned about this, which is what prevented them getting into the financial markets in the first place. So, yes, Bitcoin is great, but you need to understand it in context. And actually, what's happening with these companies is brewing the next disaster. And you heard it here first, or the World Crypto Network. I think you're right, Victoria, it really does seem like some kind of ASOPs fable, where micro strategy borrows this money, they invest it, they make money, they borrow more, they invest it, they borrow more. And it just keeps blowing up, and the child keeps getting larger and larger. And then eventually he's going to explode. And everyone's going to say, oh, that was impossible, that never could have happened. You know, it was such a good strategy and all this. But from the outside, it's just so simplistic. And then the borrowing is just so dangerous, and like you said, the exact thing that Bitcoin was trying to get away from, which is ironic as all the Bitcoiners circle around him, as he repeats things that old Bitcoiners said many years ago. So it is very interesting. I think it's going to blend well into the next topic. But for right now, we have to go to the exit question, to predict the future, who according to the chat, the ball was correct last week. Bitcoin is down 3%, chat the ball knows all. Josh Jagalla will the price of Bitcoin going to be higher or lower this time next week? I'm going with, oh, geez, I'm going with low of fucking. He's a bear and he's bearish. Jesse, are you going higher or lower? I'm always going higher, but also, you know, we're ending the year. I think some people might be selling for tax purposes. So starting the next week will be a new year. I think it's going to be a new, a new upward trend. A new year. Victoria Jones, higher or lower? Yeah, I think the Santa Claus rally is probably coming to a screeching end, especially, you know, as you've just said, with selling for tax purposes at the end of the year. So it could well be lower by next week. All right. When we before we ask everyone in the chat say higher or lower, put your vote in now. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? High. Without a doubt. Without a doubt. Oh, yeah. Higher. Yeah. That's spoken. Moving on to issue two tech companies embracing Bitcoin treasuries as a strategic asset as the market heats up heading into 2025. And as we were just talking about with microstrategy, other companies are taking notice that you could just buy Bitcoin with your extra cash or even your profits or anything, hold it on your balance sheet and watch it go up. Some in the Japanese stock market have even noticed this publicly announced it. Now others are investing in their company because their company is holding Bitcoin and it's going up. It was again a rolled doll, ASOPs, Fable, completely unbelievable situation as companies start to realize what Tesla and Microsoft might realize it might be better to hold Bitcoin than to make anything or do anything at all. Jess, see what do you think about the trend towards companies holding Bitcoin treasuries? And if it will pretty much take away the incentive to make software to make cars to make anything. Yeah, a little bit like sort of what Victoria was saying earlier. I can see them seeing how exciting that is, not just microstrategy, but all the other companies that have been announcing in the day they announced they could be popped by 20-30%. So it's definitely an easy grab for if you want your stock price to go up. It seems like now. I don't know when they have, and it's a treasury, I don't know how it works as far as like when they, or if they can sell or how they do that. So you know, I kind of see like, yeah, exactly what Victoria said. I see a little, I see a little bit of a bubble percolating. And I can see us going into that four-year cycle that way, just like the way it was in the late 90s with the dot-com trends. And Bitcoin's sort of being that thing temporarily at least. And then I may say, well, Bitcoin's over, it's dead again, like the internet was dead. And then of course, it'll be wonderful resurgence in another three or four years. It does seem like making stuff and making money is so hard. Why not just hold Bitcoin? It makes everything so much easier. And it's not even complicated once you're holding it. You just said, you just hold it. Victoria Jones, what do you think about other companies adopting the micro strategy strategy? Well, I mean, you'd be a full-notty. Wouldn't you really? I mean, if it works like that, I mean, all credits to Michael Salem for figuring out before everyone else. And to a certain extent, you could do that, even without leverage, it would work for you. You know, my criticism of him is the fact that he's promoting this leverage strategy, which is just a recipe for disaster. And ultimately, he might have a great reputation at the moment for the fact that he's got all these companies to adopt Bitcoin. But using that specific strategy, he's going to be, his reputation is doomed when it all falls apart. So, you know, good luck, Michael. But, you know, you might have your moments of cleverness, but the chickens will come home to rest. The leverage might be a disaster, but what an exciting ride. And the only one who had this idea before, Michael Sailor, was pirate at 40. And that was a Ponzi scheme. But it was the same thing. I'll take your money, I'll invest it in Bitcoin for you, and I'll hold the Bitcoin you can trust me. But that was even before my time in 2013. I think that was before that. Josh Shagalla, what do you think about other companies, including MicroStrategy, suddenly holding Bitcoin on their balance books? Yeah, of course, it's going to happen. It's the step before governments doing it. The thing is that there's twos and throws. Like Michael Sailor's a true believer. He's in terms of what I think he is, you know, and he puts it out that way. So, he will hold through the hardest times and even double down and leverage upon that. When other companies like Elon came along, Tesla did that, but Tesla had weaker hands, well, the board did and forced to sell. In good times, everybody is a genius investor in ball markets. Wow, you're a genius. As soon as it hits hard times, how many of these companies or these boards will choose to drop the single asset that's liquid? Because machinery isn't everything else isn't. The other thing is that the stock market has become. It's become a weird place. It's not what it used to be when before the computers and when people used to shout at blackboards. Nowadays, we have 401k's and all these large amounts of money that the stock market wasn't really designed for slashing back and forth. Rather than you get these CEOs that are basically very short-minded. They don't want to do long-term thinking because they're worried about the speculator rather than the investor. So, the speculators just look at triangles and want to quickly make some money. Now, if people put Bitcoin on their balance sheet, they can record that. They can show an upswing. The speculators would jump on top of these because they see the triangles lining up and the Fibonacci's and everything else. Whereas the investor goes, this is a fundamentally strong company. And we'll invest in that long term. I'll put famous investors. We all know them. So, what happens now with all this extra money that's sloshing about rather than people investing in true value, which Bitcoin is for sure. But true value is actually the cars that they're making or the other thing. That's the actual value there long term. And it's actually the actual value, but it's the very liquidest of value. And so, those companies will sell that value very, very quickly to cover any problems that they might have. And so, the more companies do this, the more speculators would jump on board. But guess what speculators do? They quickly dump as well as soon as it goes south. And then you'll start to see a lot more volatility in the stock market if everybody takes a strategy. And if you don't have Michael sailors true belief in Bitcoin and double down and hold on through that, if it's not your core strategy, then you will sell. And so, I think we'll see a lot of buying now, but we see very, very quickly a lot of selling as well. And when it's on the institutional level, we might, it might actually sustain Bitcoin's volatility rather than the thesis that's always been there by the time the market cap gets so big, it'll even out and it'll become more stable. And we might see the opposite because the companies are holding larger amounts sell. And so, that volatility stays in the market. We've also got companies trading at hundreds of times their earnings and automated trading, which like you said, Josh, if they put Bitcoin on their balance book, they get a bunch of articles automated trading takes over starts buying it, it could have a whole frenzy and like you say, it could dump and go up and down over and over again. Let's move on to the exit question. What could stop this? What could stop businesses from investing a percentage or perhaps all of their cash or their extra money or whatever into Bitcoin? Jesse, is there anything that could stop this? Yeah, basically, I think exactly what Josh said, if MicroStrategy has some kind of liquidity issue, if some companies start selling with weak hands, if it tanks again, they'll probably all jump on board and all sell it and it will create some volatility event. But it just takes a while to really get your head around it as we all know. And so over time, I do think that more people will begin to really understand, hey, actually it's probably better ideas for this thing or they'll buy it again when it goes down somewhere and as it goes up again, they'll start buying again. So, yeah, the thing that could stop it though is just some major volatility event. That's a short answer. Victoria Jones, is there anything that could stop this? Should they make a law? I think volatility issue event for sure. I also go back to what I said earlier, I think Congress has yet to fall behind Donald Trump strategy in spite of all the excitement. So, I think Congress having something to say about that could put a kibosh on the whole thing and certainly damp sentiment. So, yeah, I'll be interesting to see. Josh Gala, we used to be outlaws, we used to be pirates and now we talk about how it's inevitable for companies to put their balance books into Bitcoin. Can anything stop this? You're muted, so that would stop it. That'll stop it. Yeah, a bear market. I mean, this is what happens. As soon as we hit a bear market, it's over. That was a terrible strategy. We're never going to do that again because we because these companies, they don't know what they're doing in terms of Bitcoin. They think it's easy. They think, oh, we'll just buy the bottom and sell at the top or they think we'll just hold all the way through it. But the pressure starts as that line is in the red, the pressure starts coming on. And if anyone's been in these large board meetings, you know, the pressure a board can put on a single decision maker will be huge. And for that pressure, most won't withstand it and they will sell. So that that'll stop it. And they probably won't do it again. Like Tesla, we saw Tesla hasn't done it again. I'd not to my knowledge. Well, I worry for them. They were making more money on the Bitcoin than they were on the cars. So I worry about the incentive where they just might not be focused on the goal. If you have these shareholders and they all write in and they're like, what are you guys doing to sell more cars to make better cars? We're holding our money in Bitcoin. I don't think the shareholders are going to like it. We'll see how it goes. Moving on, check out worldcryptonenetwork.com where we have the on this day button on this day, 27th of December 2021. We had the Bitcoin Group number 17. That's probably a re-air. We also had lightning hack sprint with Bitcoin wallet security and live from the K-offs communications conference in December 2020. Matt Bitcoin said, what if YouTube deleted all of the Bitcoin videos? We also had an interview with Margo from looks like Malta. And we had the worldcryptonenetwork live Bitcoin bowl spectacular where bit pay sponsored a college football game. And we live streamed commentary with Theo Goodman and many others. Great classic videos. Check them out at worldcryptonenetwork.com on this day. Moving on, North Korean hackers pull off $308 million Bitcoin heist from crypto firm DMM Bitcoin. As more and more companies hold Bitcoin on their balance sheets, perhaps they'll attack the attack that attract the attention of not only hackers, but government hackers. North Korea pulls in $308 million from Bitcoin. Is this the future of governments hacking companies and perhaps other governments for their Bitcoin, Victoria Jones? Yes, it gives a whole new meaning to World War 4, doesn't it really? I mean Einstein is famous for having said that he didn't know what World War 3 would be fought by, but he didn't know that World War 4 would be fought with sticks and stones. But it turns out he was wrong. It's going to be fought by North Korean hackers. That's how they will invade your country and conquer the world. Yeah, I mean, it's a whole different ballgame, isn't it really? And actually if you understand anything about financial history, the only reason that they were able to pull off World War 1 and World War 2 at all was because they suspended the gold standard. But we've done that now. We don't have any more value to lose in the dollar in order to fund a big kinetic war like we've done in the past. And so the strategy is completely different and this could well be the way of doing it. And again, Bitcoin is still early. We still have a lot of lessons to learn and often these lessons are learnt very painfully. A lot of individuals lost a little bit coin from various exchange hacks. And if you've got naive governments or naive companies, you haven't learnt how to hold their Bitcoin properly. I mean, this kind of thing is just right for the taking and of course, you know, we'll contribute to continuing volatility until a lot of these problems are ironed out. It does seem like a science fiction story where the other country is building battleships and space ships and all kinds of amazing technologies. They have so much resources and money. You have a bunch of kids sitting around the campfire learning about social engineering, learning how systems work and learning computer software. And that becomes a greater power than all of these battleships. And I think that's something these companies have to watch out for as they start to hold Bitcoin on their balance sheets. It might be a whole different kind of disaster. Josh, you go, what do you think about the North Korean hackers taking down $308 million in Bitcoin? I've always been very, very suspect of any headline that blames North Korea for hacking. The thing is North Korea can't even afford people can't afford computers there. Like how I find it phenomenal that this country, this backwards country who's got a terrible economy, people can't afford anything pretty much. This is what we see in the West. Some always have the best hackers in the world. Hang on a minute. How do you have the best hackers in the world if nobody has computers to actually learn how to hack? I really don't buy that. I buy that maybe Russia has really good hackers or something like that. To me, as soon as I see these headlines, I think there's something sus about this. And look, we saw it with like the New Jersey drones, for instance. These drones are flying around and things are happening. People are like, what the hell is that? What's going on? The first thing that comes out is some senator saying, I've got it at a good standing that these are Iranian. And the Iranian drones and the mother ship, they've got a mother ship as well. And it's a, I can't tell you who it is, but it's very, very, very strong evidence that this, you know, you just know you're full of it, mate. You're full of it. You're full of it. So much that you just want to stir the the the cold runs of war. And so whenever I hear North Korean hackers, I think the same thing. It's probably just nonsense. I don't know who the you know, it's very easy to jump through VPNs. If you're a true hacker, you're not really going to know what knows where you're from basically because you you hide that like. Yeah, so I don't buy it. That's that's my take. I don't know. I wouldn't share these stories. If I were them, they might inspire other countries who knows who's out there listening, saying, hey, if North Korea can do it, we can do it too. Jesse, what do you think about this or like it's never with computer skills? Well, again, I think you can hack more people with a telephone. You just call them up and convince them to give you the password. Jesse, what do you think about the North Korean hackers? Yeah, I actually read a really fascinating book this year coincidentally called the Earth and Master Sun sort of a fictionalized account of a person who was born in North Korea and their wife. North Korea, you know, it's one of the great criminal cartels of the world. I mean, they don't they don't have anything really except criminality. That's how they get all their money and the leaders of the state. They get people when they're very young and they train them in specific jobs or specific things. And that's what they do their whole life. So, yeah, I mean, famously there was video of people going to North Korea seeing people on computers and they lived, you could tell they had never seen when they're like, but they're kind of like trying to pretend, you know, for the cameras like they know what they're doing, but there are actually people that are specifically hired, made born and bred to do this thing. If they don't do it, well, they get killed or whatever else, you know, I mean, it's a concentration camp. It's a country that's a concentration camp. It's really horrible place to live. But they're good at they're good at criminality. So I do believe it's possible. I don't know if it's true. If they were North Korean hackers. And exactly. I just think the free market allows for a much stronger hacker culture because suddenly you have a pool of many, many people. You just pick someone out and threaten them with death. Sure, you might get a couple of good ones out of that. But to get like to have everybody have access computer and you see like, wow, these guys at school doing really well, let's pluck him out or her. And then you're going to get a pool of good hackers. It could be it could be possible that they're just paying other hackers as well. And evidence here at least provided by just this article, obviously, we don't know anything about North Korean hackers is that they trace the money to North Korea. So that at the end of the day, the money went to this account, which we know goes to these guys. So how it got there, I'm not sure that we as the public know. There was additional thing like you said, Thomas also, which was it was primarily social engineering, which is really just calling somebody on the phone and sort of manipulating them psychologically and giving you some information. Or in this case, they were applying for a job interview when they thought so they put something on their GitHub and then through that they got someone else to, you know, upload it to this other thing. And so. The other interesting thing about the articles, they went to a mixer and they still were able to trace it after went through the mixer. I don't really know how I know how mixer supposed to work, but you know, I don't know how they trace it after that back to the final company, which was a North Korean based company, but you know, again, you can be suspect of a lot of information. Any of this stuff, like Josh says, who knows really where their phone. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't sound like a very good mixer. Well, yeah, and it mixes what, you know, if you go to court, it's always about getting beyond a reasonable doubt. And that will get you off if you, if you can show, you know, reasonable doubt. And I think that's what really mixes do. They introduce doubt to the equation because they can't 100% guarantee that you have the coins. But you have coins that are from this mixer. But there's reasonable doubt that it's not the original coins and you are using it for some other things. So it's, yeah, legally, it, they help. It's also got to be hard to wander $308 million through a mixer. They'd have to have several, you know, multiples of that above that. Otherwise you get your own coins back. This doesn't work. Let's move on to issue four issue four, the year in NFTs Bitcoin, ordinals, boom, airdrop craze and brands come and go. Well, everyone said that NFTs were dead. It turns out that they're not. There are multiple major airdrops this year, as well as brand deals between doodles and McDonald's. While Nike may have walked away from NFTs, others are seeing their value and becoming interested. We might even have a second NFT boom after Bitcoin, after the altcoins, maybe NFTs. Even Kiro cards are looking up. Josh Shagalla, what do you think about the year in NFTs and the idea that NFTs much like Bitcoin are not dead? They're not dead because people always want to look for the next big thing. So like you said, it's this sort of pattern where Bitcoin, oh wow, made my money. Okay. Now, alt, okay, made my money. Now, NFTs. I lost all my money. Quick meme coins. I might make some of it back. And then that's the end. You got nothing after meme coins. They need to make a meme coin on top of a meme coin. That'll work. There you go. Just see what do you think about the NFT resurgence and like Josh said, all the altcoins that come with it? I'll never totally understand. I mean, I kind of get a picture or photograph being art. But like, if there's like even on ordinals, it was saying in the article, it was like $13,000 to mint. I don't comprehend how anybody could, you know, on any level, imagine that they're going to one pro. I mean, who's pro? You look, you have to be one of these guys or girls who have been into Bitcoin since 2010, 11 and you have like, you know, a billion, $100 million to just, you know, basically flush down the toilet. You're basically like the guy, Justin Sun who took the banana and ate it. You know what I mean? That's, that's where you're doing when you're messing with the NFTs, I think. So maybe it's a modern art. Who knows? I can't, I can't fathom any of this being anything real or of actual value long and feature. Except maybe in the sense that like this was the first ornal ever made. There might be some kind of like, I could see museum maybe buying it one day or something. That's my start. Take on it. It was an interesting time when Paris Hilton and Jimmy Fallon were bragging about their board, eight yacht club pictures on the tonight show. And like you say, Jesse, some people buy those ones ones and they make it their profile picture and it's their identity and they are that crypto punk and that represents them. But again, $13,000, $100,000, a million to own a picture. I don't know what's happened. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the NFTs? Are they going to come back? Well, I think there's always going to be a selection of people who like cute pictures. They like opportunities to laundromoney and they like the next quick get quick rich scheme. So yeah, I think, uh, ordinals are an NFTs are here to stay and they'll probably go through their cycles a bit like everything else. And it's an opportunity for people to kind of, you know, sift through the real things from from the chaff, you know, sometimes it's hard to know what the real thing is until you've been fooled a number of times. And some people just need more opportunities than others. So go them. Everyone loves collectibles and as you know, you got to collect them all. You got to get them all must catch them all whatever moving on to our criminal police blotter segment of the show as I share the wrong screen. Let's try this one again. There we go. FTF execs, including Caroline Ellison, cut time off their prison sentences. Caroline is getting three months off and Ryan Salome, perhaps a whole year off of his sentence. We've also got interpol issuing a red notice for hex founder Richard Hart, according to the article he's accused of tax evasion and allegedly the assault of a 16 year old girl in the country of Finland. He is being requested to be presence. He's not necessarily on a most wanted list, but it has been a dramatic turn for hex founder Richard Hart. Let's go to Jesse. What do you think about the FTX executives getting less time or Richard Hart and his perhaps legal troubles? Well, I could see Richard Hart probably is going to get some serious jail time for tax evasion because he stole from a government. But Caroline and then we're going to get a much reduced sense is because they stole from people and that's how it works. So yeah, I see that funny thing about the funny the assault thing I was like, wow, you sold to the girl. I saw he pulled her hair. It looks like in a stairwell. It's kind of an interesting thing that one. I don't know what you know, I guess they needed another charge to make it more dramatic, but you know, I don't even know what country he made a taxes from on this America. That sounds like it's somewhere else, but yeah, some my thing with Caroline and them, you know, they they probably still have quite a bit of the money. So they can pay for the lawyers and they can pay for whatever they have to do to get their time we do this guy will probably have great lawyers to if he ever gets arrested, but he's probably going to do some real time because he stole from a government. It does seem a little reminiscent of Julian Assange where they were upset at him for WikiLeaks, but then they had this additional sexual assault charge, which may be bad, maybe horrible. But they don't know and they would use that like the right other thing with Ross Olbrecht and others where it's not just the financial crime. It's the additional crime. Josh, you go, what do you think about Richard Hart being wanted by Interpol and the FTX executives getting some time off? I mean, you know, I don't have anybody that's into showing off wealth and you know, hanging their boobles from their ears isn't really I've always find it very off putting not really been I think Richard, he's got some interesting takes. Obviously, he's smart, smart cookie, but he, just his, his persona has always been very, very grating to me. So I've never really been into anything that he's created. And I just think like people that invest in things like Hock tour or in these sort of cold of personality projects, I think, well, what are you doing? I don't know what to tell you. So I can't really speak to his innocent stories or his guilt, but I can just for me personally, I like, I like projects that that have true fundamental value. No, I don't know if hex does or not because just the side of Richard Hart carrying out bags of Gucci. I just think, I'm not going to invest in anything that guy does. So maybe some of it's good. Maybe it's not, I don't know in terms of his projects and and in terms of his guilt. I don't know either. Well, you're definitely getting trolled now, Josh. But everyone should check out the Richard Hart documentary, the highest of stakes as Josh said, it's about the hex, I don't know, cryptocurrency, whatever you want to call it. And a lot of people invested in it. And I'm not sure how it's going to turn out of Victoria Jones. What do you think about the FTX executives and friend of the show Richard Hart? Well, the FTX executives, not that surprised. And I think it's kind of the standard thing when people go to they've been convicted of something they have their own procedures once you're in jail as to whether or not you get time off a good behavior. And obviously if there's been some extra dobbin going on, then that might have and the extra time. So not that surprising, but disappointing. I think it's good that we're keeping it in the new cycle because it's important to know that, you know, that's what's happening to these people because many, many people suffered as a result of the collapse of that exchange, which is very sad. I don't know that much about Richard Hart. I've caught some in the early days I caught some brief clips of him and I found him remarkably off putting so didn't spend that much time watching him again. So, but you know, the most abiding thing that I thought about hex is like it's another name for a curse. So, you know, you're asking for trouble for investing in that. So, yeah, I was always inclined to stay well away. So, yeah, that's as much as I know on that subject. It did seem like a bad title the whole time you tell your account, would you lose your money in Oh, hex, you know, a curse like why do you invest in curses? It's awful. Now we're all getting trolled on how we're done. Well, we're running out of time. So, let's go to prediction or story of the week. Josh, you got to have a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. No, I mean, I've just been taking some world's earth time off. If I do say so myself, I just have been really tired. You know, it comes to the I said to my wife, man, I'm just so tired at the moment. It's just the end of the year somehow because it's the end of the year, the body cut in nose is the end of the year and you just need to like just lie down for a second and and re you know charge the batteries. But I'm really excited about 2025. I think we have so much plan and so much exciting stuff. Everything's growing. The TV on the standard just grew. It just reached a million dollars, which is pretty cool. And everyone has their own private keys still they don't give them to anybody. So it's really cool. 2025 is yeah, it's going to be a massive year. And I think this correction that we're seeing is a really nice correction to have because it means the ball market's going to run on for a lot longer. The worst thing you want in a ball market is constant straight ups every single day because you know mega correction over both space and time happens and the time one can take a long, long time, it can take years. And you don't want another year, year on year on year long bear market. It's just boring. No VC money. It's if you're only accompanying the space. It's very different. So this is good. It is great to take some time at the end of the year. Josh. I remember after finals week, I would always get sick. So it's the same thing. You just run, run, run. And then you run out of steam really fast. So it's good to take some time off. Jesse, do you have a prediction store the week or a holiday message? Go ahead. Yes, I'll make a prediction. Victoria's skeptical of what America may or may not do as far as the Bitcoin and all that. I think it's going. I think I think Trump has a lot of sway over the Republicans. I think he's serious because he probably likes to make money, I guess. And I guess he probably has some Bitcoin to so do his kids. So he's probably going to let that. So my prediction is there will be a strategic Bitcoin reserve. I think at least maybe five states will probably do it. I think it'll get heavily deregulated over the first several months or of the year. And maybe we're still going to have a four year cycle. So I'm also going to predict that there will be some sort of black swan event that's going to make the whole world go mad by the end of the year. Although certainly where some mad bits. We'll have to see if that turns out some good predictions. Victoria Jones prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. Yeah, well, I have a story of the week and in spite of my ongoing negativity, I'm not negative about Bitcoin at all. I think it's a I think it's a fantastic technology and it has a great future. But of course, you know, it was designed as a way of disrupting the existing financial system. And the only way it's going to do that is when people take more interest in the technology. Everyone's really interested in the price going up, but understanding how it works and actually operating it is a whole different ballgame. And so this has been on my mind for a while and, you know, I've been to many events and I've now got to the stage where I don't go to as many because we have quite a thriving local meetup and fortunately as part of that meetup. I've become friends with a software developer and so what we're going to do is we're going to do some videos taking people step by step in terms of how to run a Bitcoin no because it can be very tricky and quite off putting and so me who knows nothing about the software sitting next to a software developer. So I think that collaboration will help encourage more people to take these steps. We actually filmed it in July, but because of various things it's and it's been a nightmare to edit. I downloaded about 75 hours of footage that all had to be organized and collaborated, but I'm getting to the end of my editing process and hopefully they're going to be released very soon. So I would encourage everyone to subscribe to my YouTube channel, which is Satoshi's page and as soon as we're ready, I'll be making an introductory video on there and starting to release them. So yeah, and watch out for those and take an interest everybody because I think it'll be really cool. That sounds great Victoria. I think more people do need to focus on the technology, how it works and see more than just the value so many times on CNBC they talk about how great Bitcoin is, but mainly they talk about the price, what the price was last year, how much it's gone up. They never seem to have time to get down to any of the technical things, even trying it themselves or mentioning the lightning network or layer twos or any of that stuff. It's completely lost on them. So hopefully more people will see those and we'll have that in the new year. And I just want to tell everybody, you know, Mary Christmas. I hope everyone had a nice holiday. All the other things and it's going to be new years soon so everyone stay safe. Don't drink too much. Stay off those roads. And thanks to everybody for joining us. This isn't a very big show anymore, but you guys join us. You participate in the chat. You have the comments. Give us those thumbs up and push subscribe and we really appreciate it here. We like doing this show for you. And we'll be back next week in 2025 in the new year. Until next time.