The Bitcoin Group, the American original. Over the last ten years, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Evening O. Daniel Curry from TUNKEEPER. Greetings, everyone. Ben Arck from LNBITZ. Hello. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. A new Bitcoin documentary reopens the search for Satoshi Nakamoto. The identity of the Asura Anonymous Bitcoin creator has eluded sluice for years. But does finding the real Mr. Nakamoto really matter? According to HBO, Satoshi Nakamoto would have access to more than $1 trillion. So it certainly matters to them. They claim that it's Peter Todd, Bitcoin developer and friend of the show. Peter Todd denies that he's Satoshi hours before the documentary airs saying, of course I'm not Satoshi, accusing the filmmaker of grasping at straws. Victoria Jones, what do you think about Peter Todd? Possibly Satoshi Nakamoto. Well, if it weren't for the fact that it draws an awful lot of unwanted attention, I'm sure Peter would be very flattered. I'm sure there are many OG Bitcoiners who would love to think that they were smart enough to do what Satoshi Nakamoto did. Although I think it's important to remember that a lot of the elements of Bitcoin had kind of been around for a while. I mean, the really unique thing that Satoshi did was really kind of bring them all together and then recruit the rest of the crypto community to help him develop it. So Bitcoin itself wasn't just down to Satoshi. The whole project has been an evolution of different people's contributions. And certainly, Peter Todd has had a big hand in that. I think the main reason why people want to know who Satoshi is is because they want to know who owns the 1.1 million Bitcoin. I think there are a lot of people who are speculating on when that gets cashed in and whether or not the moment that that happens, if it's an affairs personality, it kind of wipes out everyone's investment. So I suspect the concern is more really from that perspective. But true Bitcoiners, you know, they want Satoshi to maintain his anonymity because really it's his anonymity which has helped make Bitcoin such a success. You know, until Bitcoin was invented, anyone who tried to create a digital currency got shut down by the government. And so, you know, Satoshi creating and introducing what he created is what's helped Bitcoin to be a successful to be so successful. And it's something that the other crypto currencies as well as they try can't replicate. So it's going to be an interesting question till, you know, the end of time. Hopefully they never figure it out, but it's not going to stop people from trying. But, you know, I hope they never do. I think the mystery is part of what makes Bitcoin safe-assinating. I think it's a good point that Satoshi was standing on the shoulders of giants when he made Bitcoin. Like you said, much like Linus using Stalman's tools together to make Linux. Satoshi took hash cash, other things from Nick Scavo, Wadei, Hal Finney, all of the cypher punks who are listed in the film and combine them together into Bitcoin. So it was pretty unique. But that doesn't mean you have to be a master coder. It's interesting to me that the most distrusting people in the world, the kind of people who use Bitcoin are now fighting to find out who the creator is because once again, they're distrust can't be contained. Here they have this trustless system. Just use the code that Satoshi left behind, but that's not enough for them. They have to stick their fingers into Jesus' wounds. They have to feel the whole thing. And I also thought it was interesting that the richest man in Mexico, who samps in Mao in the film, tries to convince to buy Bitcoin and mine it with his incredible factories and wealth, is the most distrusting person in the film. He's the one who brings up what if Satoshi sells the coins. And he's also the one who adroitly brings up E gold, which for me was a big factor back in a Bitcoin, because of course, E gold was centralized, E gold was seized, E gold was shut down. And they claimed much like Bitcoin that they would last for a thousand years. Daniel Curry, what do you think is Peter Todd, Satoshi? So I want to preface my response by saying I haven't seen this documentary. I've read some stuff about it, some people have talked to me about it. What I think is interesting, Tom, is that you showed a headline how new Bitcoin documentary reopens the whole thing, right? So like, in my mind, with the media, it's this whole idea of, yeah, okay, so a new Bitcoin documentary reopens the search for Satoshi Nakamoto. It seems like a new Bitcoin documentary, maybe every couple of years could reopen this argument, right? And keep things fresh, because I will say I have met Peter Todd and I've known Peter Todd and I wouldn't say that I'm close with Peter Todd, but professionally as colleagues, we know each other and we respect each other. And I just don't think that, you know, by pinning this whole thing on him is really fair, because I think that Bitcoin is a community effort. I think that there were obviously some pioneers involved in the beginning. Health then he would be a great example of that. Now, is he Satoshi? I don't know. Like, it's just, it's been a lot of people over the years that it's been speculated that is this person, this sole inventor of Bitcoin, which I just want to go back to saying that it's like, it's been a community effort. No piece of software is really developed all by itself, all alone in the darkness. You need to have a lot of eyes on software because there are bugs, there are problems. The idea of like just like this sole person just coming along and creating all this, you also mentioned Tom some great other names like Wade Die, Nick Zazbo. So there were some predecessors to this or at least predecessor ideas that were floated around in the academic circles for years. It just took some sole, mysterious founder to bring that all to life. Like, I think there's a bigger story there. I think it's probably an amazing story that the media just really wants to get a piece of. And maybe we're getting a little bit of the story as this all goes along. Now again, I haven't seen this documentary. I've seen that number of other documentaries though. And I do think that the filmmakers are trying to do their best to understand this industry. And I've definitely been asked and consulted on some of these things as well because there's a lot of different stories out there and a lot of different viewpoints. But I do think it just, it all kind of just goes back to the idea that cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, all of this stuff is really like a bigger community. And it takes a lot of different people and a lot of different efforts and viewpoints to get us to where we are today. I also think it's possible the filmmaker could have been a little too simplistic. It seemed like he had access to Samson Mao, Adam Back and Peter Todd. And he kind of thinks they're all Satoshi. You didn't go much for it. To him, the entire Satoshi triumphant is right there in front of him. Daniel, do you think Adam Back, Peter Todd, Samson Mao combined them together? Is that Satoshi? So yeah. And again, this goes back to folks not being in this industry, right? And I've written a couple of books about this subject and I've met these folks, right? And I know who they are. And I respect what they've done. And a lot of what they've done has been kind of carrying on some of the stuff that the early developers and core we're doing, right? So like, Blockstream in particular where Adam Back has been for years. And Peter Todd has just been kind of like an independent contributor outside of that. And Samson was working at Blockstream as well. So a lot of their work was like kind of continuing on with where like this decentralization ethos had come into. And as I recall, they did raise like something around $50 million in Silicon Valley for this idea of decentralization because that's what the VCs were looking for at the time. I think they've done well, like as a business and I think like just supporting Bitcoin as sort of like, I remember like there was some ideas of them being like a red hat. Like you, you talked earlier about Linux and those things like that. And I think that that's what they've done as a company, but also they are a private company. So we're not like super aware of what their finances are. But like I do think supporting Bitcoin and decentralization is what they've always been about. And so if like if you're just like a filmmaker and those are the only people you talk to, you probably get some really big ideas out of it. And you think, wow, okay, these guys are the inventors. But what you don't see is like online like core and all the other like contributors that are out there. I think micro strategy or some other companies Coinbase that are also contributing to all the code as well as it comes to like Bitcoin core, which I mean is like the core software that runs the client basically. I also think it's possible it was the filmmakers first time meeting interesting people. Previously he'd done a documentary about Q and Q and on. And when you meet somebody that's fun and smart like Samson, Peter and who's a, you know, walking talking computer like Adam back of course you're going to say to yourself, my God, these are the smartest, funnest, most interesting people I've ever found. They must be involved in a James Bond like conspiracy to create Satoshi Nakamoto. And pretty soon you're like, this isn't a documentary. This is catch me if you can. You know, we've got a Spielberg film going right here. You know, click, click, click. You got our plot points going. So Ben, Ark, what do you think? I'm not sure if you've seen the movie, but I think you've met Peter Todd. Is he Satoshi Nakamoto? Yeah, I saw the documentary and I thought it was very good. It did a very good job of telling the history of Bitcoin. And then it was very good at being positive about Bitcoin and, you know, looking at all the nice says and all the doomsays about Bitcoin and, you know, the Bitcoin's dad and all this and that and then covering, you know, tracking over the history of Bitcoin years ago on this show, I did talk about Peter Todd being Shtashi. So I would like to say that I was there first and I went down the say everyone goes down the rabbit hole of who is Satoshi and as a teacher, when I was looking at those, those communications between Halfini and Satoshi, it was very much like a mentor and a young person. And there's something about young people that they just have the gumption that these op starts to sort of come along after all these great birds have been trying to make something and bring something into existence for decades and then they just smush this technology together and Bitcoin's code was terrible when it first, you know, with a first release of Bitcoin core. And I thought the documentary filmmaker did a good job of that talking to him here and because obviously he came up with the BIP system and then modularized Bitcoin so people can actually work on it. But it was a piece of shit code. It was, it was, it was these technologies smushed together in the sorts of way which a young person would do. And yeah, I think it's a very, he's a very viable candidate for who Satoshi is and I would like to say that it doesn't matter, but of course it does matter because it's, you know, trillion dollars worth of Bitcoin and soon to be worth a lot more, who'd be the richest person on the planet. But I would say that the coins are, and he can't spend them, he doesn't have the keys for them. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think out of all of the people who could possibly be Satoshi, Peter Todd's probably my favorite candidate. One of the reasons is because, you know, he troubles the fuck out of Bitcoin is he's this idea that Satoshi just turned into this guy who travels around to all these conferences and just trolls Bitcoin as for the end of time is quite endearing to me. And I like the point about the, what he was saying about the E-gold. I thought that was pretty cool of that Mexican, Mexican billionaire that he knew about E-gold. And then also another line which I don't know if you could up on Thomas was when he said, well, what's the point in mining Bitcoin? We should probably just buy it. And that's a line which you've been saying for years that you should never. I thought that was cosmic level intelligence right there. Yeah, totally. He's a Mexican billionaire like that. But for him to go click, click, click. What about the Satoshi coins, the E-gold? And why don't I just buy this? Why do I need to mine it? I have electricity like, but yes, you know, he was a sharp guy. I also agree, Ben, there's a big point there where Peter says, he says, wait till you tell this story me being Satoshi to a bunch of Bitcoiners, they'll never believe it. And that again, I have the Kaiser Soze moment there again where the filmmakers try to say earlier, he's like, Peter Todd seems to be saying that Adam back is Satoshi and that he's like meddling him because they're friends and they're messing around. Samson also seems to be meddling Adam back about being Satoshi at almost every point. But I think why come down. Yeah, but what I think is that. The story where he's like, I'm such a troll. I'm such a negative person in this community that I'm going to go out there and like Daniel say, he's like, I've met Peter, you know, he's kind of a punk and all this stuff and he's sarcastic and he's silly and all this stuff. I didn't wait. Hold on. I didn't say it was a punk and all right. I'll say it. I'll say it. I just want to add something though, like just from being around Peter enough, I feel like if Peter was Satoshi Nakamoto, he would be completely fine just walk around saying that. That's the last thing I want to say. Well, and that's the problem with the documentary. He is walking around saying that. He's also saying like Ben said, he's saying really smart things like, and I can say them too. If I was Satoshi Nakamoto, I would destroy any way for me to prove that. And that was part of what this whole Craig Wright thing was about was that Craig kept saying he'd have proof and he'd have half the key and they were delivered by Western Union in the rain in back to the future three and all that stuff. It does seem to me that Craig was exposing kind of what it would be like to be Satoshi. He even vented this huge thing, but if you did a really good job burning and destroying all the proof so that even you couldn't do it. And if Peter sitting here on the other side saying everyone wants this, everyone knows everyone. I have a trillion dollars, but he probably destroyed that too. We don't know. But don't you think he could have destroyed all the proof? Then like Ben said, gone out into the community and been this critic, this sarcastic. Yeah. And that's so, so I mean, so often, well, you know, it's someone's hiding. They often hide in plain sight and that would be Peter Todd hiding in plain sight. And yeah, I think it's a very viable kind of just because of the quality of the code and the the gives these for me is that the way they tell Finne and him taught to each other. And then also that weird thing with the mailing list. So I Bitcoin talk where Satoshi went away and that was something which I dug out, you know, I think originally when I first decided that it could possibly be Peter Todd and I suddenly Peter Todd turns up after doing a fine arts course going, oh, guys, I'm back and says something really technical for such a young person to say and then disappears again. It was just it was just odd, you know, Satoshi left because of the the wikileaks thing who was worried about kicking the horn. It's nest and at that same time that Peter leaves as well. It's like, oh, you know, just I just take some time off. Just came in, made an account, said something complicated, then left again. There's a lot of good evidence that is P I mean, it's it's it's next level, Obsec, Satoshi however, because there's so there's Satoshi, you know, there's a lot of evidence, which there's a lot of things which Satoshi wrote and the very fact that we're having this conversation and we can't point at one person and say that person is definitely Satoshi. It's it's a work of genius really to it's so hard to keep your privacy on the internet, particularly if you work on a big project like Bitcoin. So it's very it's extremely impressive they managed to do such a great job, but I think I totally Peter Taldis is a very viable candidate and I admire the documentary filmmaker for also, you know, having that train of time. Clearly, he must have done a lot of research into his thoughts, Satoshi was and yeah, no, I yeah, it was a good documentary. I liked it. It's it's not the strongest proof in the land and it's a little tough to take because according to the FBI or whoever it was, DEA, they busted the dread pirate Roberts because a long time ago, he posted on a form with his real name and he also posted his secret Silk Road email. So it was like real name Silk Road email. They found it all on a plate and he was asking questions like, how do I set up a secret dark drug market in the same way, according to the documentary, they've caught Peter Taldis allegedly as Satoshi because he logged into a form with the wrong name and he posted the wrong thing at the wrong time. Yeah, but it was it was it was too much. Man, it was the same way. It was it was the timing. It was like Satoshi left like through a bit to and talk like three days after Peter Tald joined Bitcoin talk and then he also left. So if Satoshi is worried about WikiLeaks accepting Bitcoin and alpha about agencies coming after him, then Peter Taldi would also be worried about those things. But I thought I thought it was the it's very telling the reaction of Bitcoiners like when the documentary comes out and he goes, oh, I wanted to joke. It couldn't possibly be Peter. I could might be Adam back. It might be this guy. It might be that guy. It couldn't possibly be this guy who's like involved in this field when there's a very small community of people involved in this field. And there's a good substantial amount of evidence pointing at this guy. It's like, no, it couldn't possibly be him. This guy hiding in plain sight, throwing the fuck out of Bitcoiners. And to me, I'm like that makes him more likely to be Satoshi, the very fact because of all the Bitcoiners reactions. So to what all we know about Satoshi is he's genius at keeping his privacy in its op-sec. And it's yet another masterful play from Satoshi to, yeah, if Peter Taldi is Satoshi, just saying if the worst thing he could possibly do now is turn around and say, yes, I am Satoshi and then produce some evidence. That'd be awful. Because I like the dude. I've got a lot of respect for him. But yeah, I think the what makes Bitcoin incredibly strong and powerful is not having that figurehead who can make decisions and use their authority to try and push an narrative, which I imagine whoever, if anyone can have a proof of the asset Satoshi, then that'll be the thing which they're in danger of doing is like pushing their own agenda on the whole project, which we wouldn't want. But yeah, good document. I'm sure I enjoyed it a lot. I also like the filmmakers take on the alias argument. Many people would say why would he use an alias and academic would probably sign the paper and academic would want the credit. If he's some kind of government agent, he might use an alias if he's moonlighting on his company. But in this film, they said Peter was a very young person, didn't want people to say, oh, it's just some kid that wrote this. He didn't want to be dismissed by his age or his experience. That's a good reason to use an alias. Vitalik Booterin, he could have been an all-power computer programmer. We didn't know he's this thin guy wearing unicorn shirts. He showed that to us by choice. Satoshi had a different choice. I didn't want to say to Peter as well because when I first saw Boris and I met him many years ago, I remember saying we got a bar drunk. I remember saying, we all know you're so close to us, you don't we, Peter. And I remember he had a very sheepish look on his face, which it wasn't like he'd been busted. Yeah, I'm just anecdotally off from our little bit of evidence and now that it's Peter. Peter, Thomas. Well, and I'm here to unfortunately agree with Ben. I think it's very possible that Peter Satoshi, although I agree with the people who have been criticizing the filmmaker, they're like, if you're a real Bitcoin or you think Bitcoin is the greatest thing ever, and why would you want to do this to the creator? If Peter was Satoshi, I wasn't going to make any films about it or tell anybody, I'm good friends with his girlfriend. I think this is very bad for them, very dangerous. It's going to cost them a lot of money. It's going to be very inconvenient. Peter's name and face was on every single newspaper in the world. I'm sure he enjoyed that, enjoyed the notoriety, but there's a whole secondary side to this where bad people might want to target him. They might think he has extreme wealth, stuff like that. I would say there's as much evidence that it's out and back or that it's an example. It's a very good candidate too. I mean, yeah, there's as much evidence that it's an example. I just like the idea that if Peter is Satoshi, then Satoshi's traveling the globe trolling all the Bitcoin is a Bitcoin conferences. And that ties up into one of my big proof points, and again, it's not great evidence or anything, but there's that quote where Satoshi says, I think it's to Dan Larimer, the bit shares and many other projects guy, and he says, if you don't understand it, I don't have time to explain it to you. Something like that, and I find it to be such a sarcastic and such a dripping comment that when I hear it in my head, I hear it in Peter's voice. And I say, well, either Peter wrote that or the universe can create a separate person, equally sarcastic, also into Bitcoin technology, who also wrote that. So there's two options there, and they're pretty tough for the universe to create such a uniquely similar person involved in Bitcoin. But then again, maybe Ben, it's Adam back, Nick Scabbo and Peter Todd, because Nick Scabbo, they had him on the handwriting analysis or the words, the spacing, the things that he used, Adam back, everyone just thinks he's there because he's the smartest guy in the room and he knows hash cash and all that. And then Peter is this young guy who's like, we can do it, we can do it. Something what I do like about it is that Peter Todd's done a lot of great work, like Open Time Stumps is a remarkable technology, and it doesn't get nearly enough attention. And it's something which I know that he's very interested in developing further, unless that project in Guatemala where they used it for voting, for provably fair, digital voting, and they want to roll that. There's a Kelino, he's got a company, and he was trying to roll it out with a bunch of other countries, and it's a great concept. And it didn't get nearly enough attention. Peter Todd was heavily involved in it. So I think for his own career, even him not saying he is Satoshi, that it's a good thing, there'll be all these people be like, oh wow, we could potentially, we could be employed this person who could very likely be Satoshi. I think his other projects will get much justified, you know, a bit of line like, and support from investors and business people now by this documentary existing. So I think that's a good thing, it'll be good for him ultimately. That's a good point, even Fakes Satoshi Craig Wright, who is backed by Calvin Error allegedly, got a lot of money, started a lot of projects, a lot of companies, I don't know whatever happened with any of those, they were made anything. Let's move on to the exit question. Victoria Jones is Peter Todd Satoshi and bonus answer, like Ben sang, is it actually a good thing for his career? I don't know. I'm sure whether he is or not, it is a good, it probably has pluses and minuses. So there are probably good aspects to it and negative aspects to it. So depending on your perspective, but as to whether or not Peter is Satoshi, I don't want to speculate, because I think it's better that we don't know. It was also interesting to see the filmmakers kind of ignore the controversial aspects of Peter Todd, which is not for me to say here, but if you Google that, I think that will come right up. It's similar to me when recently Pete Rose passed away and everyone talked about whether not he bet on baseball and gambling and if that's bad, whereas Keith Obram and the sports writer kind of ruined it for me by exposing that Rose, according to court documents, had a 15 year old mistress. Now I know we don't care in baseball, tie cobs in the hall. There's lots of other monsters, but it's tough to get past that one in the same way. Peter Todd has similar alleged skeletons in his closet that were not brought up by the film. So that was a kind of a kindness, kind of an oversight. I'm not sure why in just casual conversation, they might mention it as a bit of an embarrassing skeleton. Daniel Carrey, what do you think? Is Peter Todd Satoshi and is this good for him? I don't think he is, but it's probably good for his career once this whole initial wave. I'm sure it's overwhelming right now for him. He says he's not and I'm hearing some compelling things here, but I feel like there's some circumstantial stuff there. But there's also something to say about Satoshi, I guess it's just the person who signed those keys, right? So it could have been, the programmers could have been other people. And then another thing to think about is like if Peter Todd is so anti Bitcoin or such a troller, if it's so anoy to him so much, why is he still part of the community? Why is he still out doing this? If he hates Bitcoin or doesn't like the direction of it, he could always leave. Many people have done that. It's probably pride of ownership. He's proud of it. But I do think one of the problems here is that we look at who created Bitcoin. And like you're saying, Daniel, we only look at the public suspects. I like, oh, there's about 12 people in cryptography. There's about five people on the mailing list and we plug them in. When reality, there's millions and millions of other people that exist in the world that could have contributed that we don't know. So we don't plug them in. So while we're saying Peter is a good fit in all these ways, there's this other person that's a really good fit. We just don't know his or her space aliens name. No, there's a lot of contributors that have passed away throughout the years too, because this thing is going on for a long time now. And every once in a while when I'm on Twitter, there's another contributor that's passed away. Right? So there's a long line of people who are involved in this. I don't even want to go through the number of names, but there's a lot of them out there that are just not around anymore. So that's something else to think about. When we went through last week, when many people thought it was Len Sassamon, one of the things about him is that he unfortunately committed suicide and it was during when Bitcoin's kind of a down period where everyone was dumping on the project and the price was down. And so this thing that we all thinks is an incredible success and keeps being a success at a down period. We could have lost Satoshi or they could have lost interest or they could have just gone away. They could be farming in Bali or something. We have no idea what they could be doing. And Ben, Ark, finally, back to you. Is Peter Sado Satoshi and is this good for his career? I think you'll agree. Yes, it is good for his career. He could very well be Satoshi. He was always my favorite candidate. I want to mention multiple times on WCNM, which I should watch this show. And Nick Saber did a good job when he was a prime candidate for being Satoshi of not, you know, shaking the scent and slipping into the shadows. And yeah, I think the last conversation I had with Peter Todd was a very heated argument about Noster. Usually we have for being very critical about Noster in Riga and I was sticking up for Noster. And then watching this documentary, I was like, fuck, I just had an argument with Satoshi shit. So, yeah, I don't know. It will give his opinions maybe a little bit more gravitas. And he doesn't like things like drive chains, which I quite like. And then actually watching the documentary, I was like, well, reassessing my opinion of drive chains, given him him having that, you know, more gravitas. But yeah, it will be good for his career. The line that will pass over and everything will go back to normal before I'm sure. And yeah, it's just, it's all good fun, isn't it? It's all good fun, specular. Who is Satoshi? Yeah, Ben, I'm really kicking myself for not working harder to interview. I'm a third time in Mallorca. I just kind of hung out this last time. And now I'm like, I could have interviewed Satoshi again. Rob, Rob. That's a conference, man. We think about it because you had, you had, I mean, a tacky there and Peter Todd there. Was that impact there this year? Does he go to that one? I didn't see Adam, but also Roger Fear was there. I said, and I could have had dinner with all three of them. But then I was like, no, I should just go sit with the normal people. I got to drive myself in those big situations. But it was also funny because there was like a little rumor running around at the conference. They're like, yeah, Peter and Roger are not happy with each other. And I'm like, why? Like Roger accused Peter of being a government agent. And I was like, wow, like this is an interesting industry that we're in. And now it turns out I think it was in the film that Roger accused him. So it was a public, it was not just a private thing, but it was a public thing. So I know evidence on that. There was a cool moment with Roger Verr where he was being interviewed. Because funny when they bring out Roger Verr again, isn't it? These like new bish bit coiners and they go and pull the big names out of the hat from years ago. Who are pretty irrelevant now. But there was a good moment with Roger Verr where he almost seemed kind of reflective on the block wars. Where the guy talked about Craig, right? And how that destroyed the big blockers, you know, argument and what they were trying to achieve. And Roger Verr kind of like accepted that. And then he talked about Bitcoin taking longer to get to where it needs to be, but not excluding Bitcoin, BTC, actual Bitcoin from being the proper solution. So there was a few moments with Roger Verr which I thought was quite interesting where he seemed a little bit more reflective. That was nice. That was, he was an excellent narrator for the film. And he said, there's something like that was a death blow. And he's like, yeah, I guess it kind of was. He was also the one who said, and I think it was very, very app description of Peter Todd, not to be rude to him, but he needs to be the smartest one in the room. He will prove it to you in the first five minutes he meets you that he's smarter than you. He's the smartest one in the room. And if you, if you watch my interviews, which I was going to try to promote here anyway, there's a link in the description down below. We have about 12 interviews also ones with Chris Ellis, who was featured in the film in the squat. We have interviews with Peter from the squat in London that they talked about in the film. We have an interview with Chris Ellis and a mere talkie, Julianna, other people from the squat. We've got the interviews where I talk about Peter and his first computer. And he's quite competitive in these interviews. We start off, you know, he's got a real back and forth. He's real fun. I enjoy it. I think a lesser interviews could let Peter kind of run over him. And in many ways, maybe the filmmaker just got confused and hung up by Peter. I like that. That does that. That's absolutely what she's the contrarian of contrarians. And he really is. He's very aggravating to talk to because he will always argue with you. And he's clearly a bright guy. This is why this Noster argument, which I had with him, was so hard because I'm like, he's such a clever dude. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm trying to say that he's wrong, but he really knows what he's talking about. And I don't, but there we are. There's probably another cut of the film that could be made where it's like, he's the contrarian of contrarians. And you do the cup falling from usual suspects. And it's like, turn on. I am Satoshi. We're all Satoshi. Turn on. And the filmmaker changes his mind. Of course, I never got a good answer as to who Q was either. Let's keep moving. You can check out the World Crypto Network at worldcryptonetwork.com. We've got more than 4,042 videos. You can check them out for free on YouTube or worldcryptonetwork.com. Moving on to issue two Bitcoin price consolidates above $60,000 after hot US inflation data is an uptober price surge still coming. Everything around this place has gotten a lot dumber since we decided that the price goes up in October and down in September. And there's just arbitrary no reason for this. But Daniel, Carrie, what do you think the price is up? Maybe it's because it's October. I don't know. Well, I mean, trying to predict price movements around what the month is is not a good catalyst for things. I mean, I can see here, I'm looking at a chart. And a month ago, we were at 54,000 around that. And so when you do see this hot inflation data type of news, now I just want to prep this as I was a market editor at Coindes. So when we would, I would say around 2020, we started really paying attention to like the macro economic environments and how it would affect Bitcoin. And that was because around that time that was when like the micro strategy stuff started happening. Where they were buying up Bitcoin, you know, Tesla was buying it, Square was getting into it. You know, they've they've reneged themselves into block. So there was all this institutional stuff that started paging, maybe like the what we would call tradify markets, traditional finance markets, to cryptocurrency, right? So when you see like news about hot inflation data, I do feel like Bitcoin also inflates as the as the dollar does. I don't exactly know what those numbers are for the year or what it's been like per quarter in 2024. When you see this kind of stuff like that actually means a lot more when you see like hot inflation, then you would think about anything about what the what the month is or anything like that. So October, November, December, we're in the fourth quarter now. Inflation is hot, spending for people, consumer spending coming up like for the holidays and stuff, probably going to be a little bit lower. That might be one of the reasons why we saw a lot of Halloween stuff out in July and August was that retailers knew that people were going to be spending less, people are spending less on restaurants and fast food and things like that. So the dollar is not worth what it was. And so when the dollars do go into Bitcoin, that does mean that Bitcoin will inflate a little bit as sort of that like digital gold asset that it has become ever since kind of like that 2020 period when I feel like traditional finance and and the traditional stock market started really getting a lot of exposure into Bitcoin. So it's not just the month. I was hoping we could explain things. Well, I mean, okay, you know, okay, so one thing I would say is it's the start of the fourth quarter though, right? So like that does there is some sort of a monthly thing where like October is sort of that period where spending might be a little bit lower as people start to spend more later on, right? But tying it to any up tober thing like it probably has more to do with the economic numbers than like what what the actual month is. Well, and sadly as much as we might not want it to be, it's all about Christmas. It's all about Christmas spending, the economy, everyone spends, then they're out of money, January goes down a little and then there's even that stock market thing, sell in May and go away because if nothing happens, good over the summer. Then Ark, what do you think about the price of Bitcoin breaking 60K? It's even up about 5.61% right now. I think that the documentary did a very good job of selling Bitcoin because it was tracking the history of Bitcoin and the price of Bitcoin, how much it's gone up and how all these naysayers have proved wrong and that the traction which is happening with adoption by countries and overall it's served aside from the who is Satoshi stuff. It served as a pretty good argument for a Bitcoin and we get a lot of people interested in Bitcoin and we get them on their computers behind Bitcoin so that could impact the price quite quite significantly. It's a major channel and a lot of people will watch it. And yeah, I mean obviously with an inflation, you've got less purchasing power because you're everything's going to cost a little bit more and you're a bit poorer so you've got less disposable income. So I'm not sure quite sure how that would impact the price, how that would free up people's money to spend more. I suppose maybe it would prove right the argument is for Bitcoin and I suppose and having something outside of currencies away of hedging against inflation which is probably one of Bitcoin's main value propositions. But yeah, I think, I mean to be honest, if you pick a month and you say that's the month when Bitcoin goes up, there's going to be a whole bunch of traders who are going to buy Bitcoin, things are going to go up and then they're going to dump on the month where it goes down. So there is something to, you know, a consensus that there's this pattern of behaviour because it will impact people's trading behaviour and I'll try and make a quick buck. But that's just a thin sliver of the liquidity I guess. But no, I think the HBO documentary could give Bitcoin a little pump. So yeah, let's see what October brings. It was very promotional. It's hard to tell how many people watched the HBO documentary. Samson Mao had a screenshot showing that it was number three on all of HBO Max for the last couple of days and adotably I put a bunch of clips of the film up. I got about 5,000 views on the first clip. So that's pretty good for Twitter. We had a Peter Todd interview that went viral for us. It got about 500 additional views and three comments. So not really burning the world down there, but something on the internet. And I think I agree, Ben, it was a good advertisement for Bitcoin. It was also a great advertisement for Samson Mao. I know him as this kind of troll who trolled Bitcoin and defended the developers on Reddit and Twitter. And I met him a couple of times and at one point I had a box of his hats in my house. But in this film, he flies private jet after private jet with a rich Mexican billionaire with people representing countries. And his best friend seems to be the Prince of Serbia who seems way into Bitcoin and a big maximist. So great job, Samson Mao. And show everyone this documentary. You should put it on a business card. Say hi, I'm Samson Mao from the documentary. It was incredibly positive about him. And even promos is his new company, so I won't name. He's quite an antigenestic guy. And he got like those was one point in where I saw the true Samson Mao where the Prince of Serbia has a coffee and he goes cheers. And Samson Mao just goes, you don't say cheers with coffee. And then he drinks his coffee. And to me, that Samson Mao, like he's just the sort of that contender. I did notice that. That was an incredible point. He's corrected him on that. But yeah, it was again, this guy met the most interesting people in Bitcoin. He thinks they're all Satoshi and he made a fun film around it. Because yeah, in the beginning, he's like, Samson knows Satoshi or he knows who Satoshi is. Like he put both of them on it. So I hope you'll be all right with that. Victoria Jones, what do you think about the price of Bitcoin breaking 60K? Everything's fine. It's all HBO. Well, it's tricky to say. I mean, typically October can be a very volatile month for the stock market. I mean, September is traditionally a low month. There's everyone's ending their summer holidays and then working their way back up into that into work. And then a lot depends on what's going on really. So and we've got a lot of worrying things happening in the financial markets at the moment. We've got problems with banks in China. The banks are failing in America last March. There's this kind of low grade worry that constantly is brought up when people start talking about the economy. We've also got wars breaking out in Israel and traditionally when big wars break out, that tends to strengthen the dollar, which tends to be inversely correlated to Bitcoin. Because of course, everyone's buying Bitcoin as a hedge against the dollar, but of course, there are other factors involved and not everyone understands Bitcoin as well as they understand the dollar. So it's complicated. And what I would say is that at this point in Bitcoin's price cycle, it tends to be the point at which it starts to escalate, but it's almost like we've had that prematurely with all the ETF involvement. And of course, now with their funds, they can manage the price cycle much more than it's been managed in the past. I think obviously when Bitcoin was a virgin asset, not really connected to the financial system, you could see a clear pattern that correlated with how Bitcoin's were actually released into the system. But now that it's plugged into the financial system, there are all sorts of other things that will influence it. So I think it's going to be much harder to predict in the future than it has been in the past. Needless to say though, long term, I'd say that it's got a strong future, but the timing of that is tricky and now I think. I know there's one thing that has no problem predicting the future of Bitcoin, and that's the magic eight ball, the source of all truth in this or any other universe. Daniel Kerry predicting against the ball. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week? Higher. Ben Arck, higher or lower? Higher. Victoria Jones, everyone seems to be trending bullish today. Will you continue the trend? No, I'm going to say lower. Lower, I've also heard people say that the magic eight ball has not spoken to us for many weeks now. We don't really keep track of these things, but they say it hasn't answered. So will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Most likely, most likely. So there you go. It's a bullish ball. Now you can invest accordingly. Moving on to issue three, Grammy nominated rapper Logic invested six million dollars in Bitcoin nearly four years ago. This is how much his stash would be worth today. And the article doesn't say if he managed to hoddle as the price went up and down and many other things happened and he probably needed money in his world. But spoiler alert, it's a positive article about Bitcoin for once. Grammy nominated rapper Logic, but I don't really know. I think maybe he did some songs in entourage. Would be worth 18 million dollars if he'd managed to hoddle Ben Arck. What do you think about the media writing one of these positive articles about Bitcoin? They could have very well just picked a different celebrity and a different point in history and said something like, if Paris Hilton bought 10 board apes when she and Jimmy Fowell and talked about them on TV, she would have lost this much money instead of positive article about Bitcoin. Yeah, there was a bunch wasn't there. There was 50 50 57. He bought a bunch of Bitcoin months upon a time. So I would remember and they said you lost the keys or something at the 700 700 Bitcoin. Yeah, there was a because he was he went bankrupt because of taxes and then everybody was like, yeah, but you got 700 Bitcoin in the secret stash. I think that he earned them for his album and everyone was like, oh, he held them. He held them and he's like, yeah, that just got converted to dollars. I just went into the pile with the rest of the money. But of course, we could say from the outside we're like, yeah, we tried to give you 700 Bitcoin or something. You just didn't keep it. That's been a few hours. You've done that as well. I think it's Ariane Grande. I think it's Ariane Grande. That's what he said. That is offered like, I don't know, millions of dollars now to go play at the chic or there's one of these the Arab gentlemen, one of their houses, thousands of Bitcoin. And they're like, ah, whatever. And it's worth a billion dollars now, stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm sure we'll get more of these articles in the new cycle. And the real question is whether they did hold on to it. But I know a lot of these rapid types and they live a fast life and they spend the money they forget to do the taxes. They get a big tax bill and we might have dubbed it to pay as taxes, which I think might happen more often than not. But yeah, it's good. More positive news about Bitcoin. Feeling like it's pretty positive out there at the moment. The Bitcoin new cycle weather is pretty positive. So we've got X presence talking about it and we got, you know, HBO documentaries and we got rappers. It's actually getting rich from it. So yeah, good stuff. That sounds pretty good. Victoria Jones, what do you think about rapper logic and his potential $12 million windfall? Yeah, not bad. It was pretty good investment. Although considering when he bought them, I think it was a 4X profit. So, you know, if it had been another four years prior, then it might have been even better. But, you know, it's hard for a trader to, well, hard for the average trader to make those kind of returns. So not bad for just buying something and then sitting on it for a while. So yeah, good for him. And normal traders are excited if you get like 5, 10%. We're talking 300, 400%. No problem. And like Jay-Z said in that song with the very bottom of Picasso, he's like, he just keeps saving it, saving it, giving that to my children. Daniel Carrey, what do you think about logic and his incredible windfall if he managed to huddle? Well, I think it's an example of where, for most people who are not very sophisticated traders, this is what you want to do. You want to just buy, hold, not think about it too much. You know, look at the price all the time, dollar cost, averaging. I'm not trying to offer any investment advice here, but you can see the ebbs and flows of how like the cryptocurrency market goes if you look at the charts. And one thing I was doing as well as when you guys were talking was looking at the charts, I don't know when logic would have bought Bitcoin in 2020, 40 years ago, like not sure there was like a specific date or time, but like, you know, Bitcoin started the year in 2020 at, you know, about $9,000 and then ended the year at $33,000. So that's like a big price band. So I'm curious, like, I didn't read this article. Did they even talk about when he made this purchase or? It also seems like another reason that he would sell because he would have that incredible in fall. It says here way back in November 2020, the rapper disclosed on Instagram that he purchased $6 million worth of the currency. So it was pretty late in 2020. So he would have already seen it rise from nine to 30, but Dan, I think you have a good point. You see something happen economically, like you just followed, like gold is going up. You buy gold, you hold it for four years, you look like a genius, all you're really doing is following, right? It seems like I remember this happening now because I was working at Quandesk at the markets, editor desk, and it was around the time that Bitcoin, I think, was around $30,000. So hopefully he hold and he should continue because if it was around that area, he still would have gotten a 2x return on that, right? Like given where we're at now. And it could keep going up. If you're going to have an excess of like $4 to $5 million in cash and you see this asset going up and you would normally just keep it in dollars, you've seen a pretty good return out of that, right? And I think this happens with a lot of high net worth people as they have some excess cash and they want to go buy something and they can go buy a car or a house or art, like you mentioned earlier. But cryptocurrency, man, what is like the fees on custody for that? Pretty cheap. You don't got to move it around. It's an easy asset to just own and not worry too much about, right? You just buy and you just kind of sit there and let the markets do their thing. It also says logic said on a Twitter post that his manager had been bugging him so he finally made an investment in Bitcoin. Sometimes it makes sense to listen to your managers, to listen to the wise people around you, especially if you're a young person with a ton of money investing it. The other thing I think Daniel was right on is that logic clearly has more than $6 million. He's not exactly checking up on this 6 million saying, is it 601? Is it 602? He's out enjoying his life. He's not concerned about this and this would give him that ability to huddle for four years and to not look at it and to not worry about it. And also, you know, of course, 6 millions of ton of money. So he must be doing great. But a really interesting story and I was glad to see the media do the positive if you bought Bitcoin when story for once rather than the if you bought Bitcoin when Tom told you to buy it, you'd be down forever and and mad about it and keep trolling him on Twitter. Moving on to the last issue, just one more of these political issues. Hopefully we'll have less of these when it gets to the election. Bitcoin will skyrocket to $200,000 in 2025. No matter who wins the US election, yes, no matter who wins too many people on Twitter have been saying, we need the orange one to win. Otherwise the world's destroyed or we need Commolder to win or otherwise the world's destroyed. But Bitcoin doesn't care. It doesn't matter. Victoria Jones, what do you think about this shocking news that Bitcoin doesn't care about politics, whether it's every four years or a bi-election or something for parliament doesn't care? Well, Bitcoin doesn't care, but the people who buy it do. That might have an influence. As for Bitcoin reaching $200,000, yeah, that would be nice, but I really don't know. I'm just so disappointed with the whole ETF thing. I really think it's kind of messed up the previous cycles. And there's also this concept of diminishing returns. May well be that we get a bit of a rise, but possibly not to the same extent that we've had in the past. So I don't know, really, I just being realistic. It's had some, Bitcoin's had some great momentum in the past, but I think again with everything else going on in the, in the rest of the world and with the financial system, I think it could, depending on how long it takes for all of that to play out, it could slow down Bitcoin for a bit. So, yeah, but personally, I'm not interested in anything to do with politics and how that affects Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin designed to destroy all of them and the sooner the better. But until that happens, then, yeah, the people who buy Bitcoin might be motivated to buy it or not. First, the magic eight ball and now standard chartered. Daniel, everything's just going up for Bitcoin, right? Everything is fine. Well, you know, here's something that I, when I used to do market reporting for coin to something that I would look at every once in a while, maybe once a month is Bitcoin dominance. And I'm looking at Bitcoin dominance right now. And it is at 58% and that's the highest it's been since March of 2021. So investors are concentrating into Bitcoin. Obviously, I think the ETFs have a lot to do with that consolidation. But people are liking it. So almost 60% of the entire cryptocurrency market is people holding Bitcoin. And so I think there's a lot of interest out there in if you want to get into the crypto market and you're like a fund or your private office or you're all these people that have like an allocation of money, you're probably going to put some money into crypto and you're probably going to put it into Bitcoin. I don't think it really matters who's going to be the president because I think both sides now through this whole political campaign process has realized through the lobbyist that the crypto lobby is influential and has money and has some ideas about the way that they want to see the industry work. So what I would expect no matter who the president is is we're going to see, you know, crypto flourish. It will probably be different depending on, you know, one party is really interested in frameworks and policy, whereas another party is perhaps more free market oriented. You know, I don't really comment in general about politics or presidential candidates or anything like that. But I will say like, I think that the government going forward in his plan around cryptocurrency as it pertains to the United States would be one of a regime around good taxation and good ways of policy around that because we do have a problem with running a gigantic deficit in the United States. And so I think that like sensible tax policy around crypto assets, around digital assets, around staking is really important mining as well. And so, you know, I think we're going to see more policy makers that do understand this industry and are getting a lot more educated thanks to the lobby that we do have in the crypto industry today. It's also in the article they say they're not sure if alt coins such as Ethereum and Solano will go up as well. As Daniel mentioned though, every time Bitcoin dominance goes up, everything consolidates into Bitcoin, then they make a bunch of money, then they take some of those profits, dump it into some alt coins, the alt coin go up, they sell the alt coins, they go back into Bitcoin. I don't know the timing on this and all that, not financial advice, but it does seem every time the Bitcoiners celebrate that we're crushing them on dominance or on price or whatever it is, there's always a swing back. We can't control these markets. Ben, Arck, what do you think about Bitcoin skyrocketing to $200,000 coin, no matter who wins? I think it's going to be a lot more in 2025. It's people are finally waking up to how illiquid this very, you know, scarce sort of after asset is. And things like Ethereum, they've sort of shown in all the sort of shitcoin markets. They've sort, they've been very underwhelming, you know, what they've actually produced in way of utility. And I think the general populace appreciate that, that's not so far on Ethereum as opposed, but most of the shitcoins, and I think the general population, they know someone's been stung by some shitcoin or some ICO scam and they understand that Bitcoin is kind of the main event and these things are all satellites to, you know, celery things, you know, play things. And it's pretty huge like the things like my crystal, actually, are doing in all the Bitcoin, they're buying up and they're sort of proving this weird money printing business model where they can just buy Bitcoin, get, get finance on the Bitcoin they hold and then buy more Bitcoin and just infinitely, can she get more Bitcoin? So I'm sure lots of other companies will follow suit on that and demand is high. Lots of people are talking about it with Bitcoin. It's always been a case of, you know, if it's in the public consciousness and if the, if the, if the, the, the market things there, if people just hear the word, being knocked around in the, in the news, then the people tend to buy Bitcoin and then it goes up in price. So honestly, it's, it's scarce. Lots of people want it. People, you know, countries and governments are looking at Bitcoin and there's always talking about CBDCs and blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I can see it really skyrocketing to, you know, like a million dollars of coin whatever. We're all, ultimately, you know, it's all on target for 600 billion coin. And then when we get there, we've won. But yeah, 2025, like a million dollars of coin, easy. As Matt Damon said, fortune favors the bold. Yeah. So we're running out of time. Let's go to predictions or story of the week. Victoria Jones, do you have a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. Um, well, regarding my website, it's pretty much the same as I described last time I was on. So I won't talk about that today. Um, I, I suppose the news on the horizon is we've got our local Bitcoin meetup in Nottingham, uh, this Wednesday. I'm not actually going to be able to get to that one, unfortunately, but, um, uh, we have them regularly here. And, uh, if you're in the UK and interested in Bitcoin events, then, uh, check out Bitcoin events UK. They often have all the local meetups listed there. So if there's anyone in England who's listening and looking to find other people to have a good old chinwag about Bitcoin, then, uh, that's my recommendation and the local one in Nottingham is coming up in a few days. Sounds like a fun time. Uh, Daniel Kerry, do you have a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. Why, I think it's still going to be Peter Todd for a while, isn't it? Or it's the, the big coiners didn't seem to care. I was all fired up the night that I watched it and then I woke up the next morning, red Twitter and everyone's like, it's not him. It's not him. And I was like, this big TV network with a big documentary guy just said it was. It's in the New York Times, you know, uh, no, the big coiners don't seem to care. So what I, what I will say is and, and, you know, great job earlier, Tom, of plugging your, uh, world crypto network, uh, Peter Todd programming. And so one thing, yeah, there you go. So you could nice work, uh, that, you know, you're starting to learn how to be a real TV network over here. Uh, but, um, so one thing, but you'll be able to see, because one thing I've noticed about this streaming stuff and like, tell me, I'm not an expert at it, but like, I do read, like, Hollywood reporter and stuff is like, what happens with this stuff? And streaming is it kind of starts to snowball and it gets like the word of mouth and people like, Oh, yeah, this is something you got to go watch, right? And so that may happen, but you will also be able to see that through your own analytics numbers, right? You said you had a little bit of a viral moment and like, maybe the thing, snowballs and gets a little bit bigger and, you know, maybe if Peter goes on CNN or talks to Anderson Cooper or something cool, you know, maybe 60 minutes or something, you know, like, um, there's just a fascination in this kind of stuff. Like, I remember when I time did that thing with Dorian Nakamoto, the lunch loving guy who was really not involved at all, but had like a similar name to such a Nakamoto. Um, I don't know if you, you probably remember Tom how that kind of snow walled, right? And then like, you know, people were like going to his door and like, you started to do it appearances and stuff. So like, we'll see, we'll see where this goes. I mean, the only, the only other thing of interest is the presidential election. And so like, if Peter Todd wants to do a little like campaigning to be elected, uh, you know, president of Bitcoin, like he might try to do that just for fun. We'll see. He does seem to think that he can promote, uh, basically his and his, his girlfriend's interest in the Ukraine issue, uh, that he can promote one side of that and that that could be a benefit for him out of this. Uh, I do think it could, it could go underground. It could go viral like you're saying people passing it along. Like you don't believe this Bitcoin documentary. You won't believe it's Satoshi, but I'm not sure. I feel that's more like like Pam and Tommy where you have Pamela Anderson and this guy breaks in and steals the sex tape. That's salacious. That's interesting. Like you're googling it right now. Like you're like, I can't believe I haven't seen that yet. And it has Seth Rogan in it. Uh, so that, that's a bit tough to fight on this. Um, but we'll see how it goes if a Peter continues to do this. And of course, I think it's very unlikely that Peter is going to mention the world crypto network and all of our great content because Peter still doesn't follow me on Twitter. And, uh, in many interviews, I've asked him to follow mad bitcoins and nothing, nothing, nothing from Peter Todd. And now you can never get a message through to him. So, uh, I'll be interesting to see how it turns out. Uh, again, it feels like to me like everyone watched it. Everyone was there alive. Uh, but like you say, normal people are not there. They're not watching this live, but maybe next week, the algorithm recommends it to them that browsing through documentaries. They think this is interesting. Maybe we get a whole bump on this. I'll certainly be watching my spot, my stats, but I don't, I don't expect anything. Of course, if you're new here, you can subscribe, try to get us to 100,000 subscribers. Maybe you have a program that auto subscribes could get us one of those, uh, because we're at like 50,000 and Victoria thinks we're shadow band. So I don't think we're going to grow past 50. Uh, but maybe if we went viral with whole Peter Todd is a toasty thing, right? Right. Come on. All right, let's go to see. There's a chance you're saying there's a chance. All right. So it's got to bend arc with a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead, Ben. I think WC has very well respected by all the original Bitcoin is because it for a long time. It was also quoted by Adam back on Twitter. I had the, uh, I had to record it off my screen because there wasn't a torrent and they blocked my screencapping software. But of course where there's a will, there's a way. All right. So I recorded off the screen, uploaded the key points to Twitter and Adam back was able to view them, even though he probably doesn't have HBO Max in Malta. So there you go. He's a good dude. Adam back. He quoted mad bitcoins even last time I saw Adam back. Uh, I was getting on the plane and I was in the economy line looking at all the fancy, you know, the people who pay for the premium thing and they go through on the fancy bit. And they sit in the fancy seats on the plane. And then who's behind me just Adam back just stood there and by the way, it wasn't 50 million that block stream raised it's 300 million. So you go guy who has a company which raised 300 million dollars and he's just in the economy line just with his little backpack just running his own business. I'm like, what a fucking cool guy. You know, like to have clearly, you know, he's a well off dude, um, but to be so grounded. And if you ever get to one of these Bitcoin conferences, then, you know, I'm back to you, but just walks around, chats to people. Doesn't like lock himself away in the well area and I think I got a lot of respect for him. Anyway, that was a side point. Love him. Can I share screen talking of Adam back? You might like this. If you've got any, you probably is watching. Uh, this one here is it. Ooh, it's messy in there. Um, so yeah, so oh, yeah. So I finally finished the, the new update of the FOSSA. This is a really bad video, but I'm going to show you anyway. And in the new update of the FOSSA, I think I already mentioned it on the show, but, um, when it generates the QR code, which you can scan with the lightning while it can get the funds from it. If you scan it with a normal QR code scanner, you can actually press it. It has a link. So it has this fallback schemes has a link so you can press it. And then you can give it an on train or a liquid invoice, uh, not invoice address. Sorry. And it will send the funds either over liquid or on train. Um, and it uses bolts, trustless atomic swaps to do it. So it's using talent bits. So it's very sketchy little video here where you can just about see the ATM and pieces here. What's happening? Today is how much these scanning students are scanning with the lightning wall. I'm just scanning it with a QR code scanner. And here's my little link. And then I click on the little link and then it opens up this UI. I've got a horrible theme selected. That's why it looks horrible. Um, and then I go over to my and then some spit some Twitter spam there. And then I chuck that in the liquid part there and then I click on withdraw. And then it does a trustless atomic swap from lightning on the node to liquid. Then pays the liquid wallet and then it's pretty fast. So wait there. I'm clicking on. I don't know what I'm doing. So I'll click around waiting for it to clear. I think I'm checking on my laptop here. And if we go back boom, there we are. I get the liquid funds. So it's an ATM. You can put coins and fear in and as you know, before you could just scan it and you would get Bitcoin on a liquid. But now you can also, if you put in more money in, you can get Bitcoin on on chain and liquid using trustless swaps, which I think is an amazing innovation. Cause ATM's historic grieve always had to have these hot wallets, um, on chain hot wallet or liquid hot wallet. And with this with trustless atomic swaps, you have to have a hot wallet. You just got a lightning node and then just use bolts of trustless atomic swaps. Ah, very cool. Anyway, so I'm going to make a, I'm going to get the document, get the documentary, get the tutorial done for that. Um, I wanted to do it today, but I didn't run out of time. So maybe it'll be, you know, the weekend. That's my story of the week. That sounds great. Ben. So the Bitcoin ATM, they can have a little box, you put coins into it. And like you said, usually you have to have a hot wallet that's always on the internet and potentially could be hacked. Now you have a way of not using a hot wallet, using trustless swaps instead. Yeah. So as long as you're lightning nodes, I mean, it's using a little bit. So you can have a wallet with a certain amount of stoshies in on lightning. And then, uh, so you can limit your risk. Um, and, uh, you can give users the option to be able to withdraw on chain and liquid as well. Um, is, um, yeah, on chain or liquid as well. And we've also, it's amazing. So I was putting the ATM together today and it's like Lego. It's just a few wise plug a few wise in. And then we have a web install. So you just plug it into your laptop, flash it with the firmware. You can figure it on the, in the browser in the web browser. And then you just, you know, say if you want to enable on chain and liquid. And if you do, then it just does these trustless atomic swaps to on chain or liquid. Um, but it's just like less faulty for somebody. Uh, I was using Phoenix D as well. I don't know if it's too technical, but Phoenix D's is an incredible like self-custodial managed lightning notes. You have to faff around with channels and stuff. I think it's really big. I think like you can, it's a, it's a good idea. Um, way to go with a Bitcoin ATM. So this thing costs like a couple hundred dollars to build. So a lot of fun. All right. Very cool. And people can check that out at ln bits.com or at Ben's Twitter at Benark. Well, I stick on the, I've, I've choked the tutorial on Ln bits, um, YouTube. And, uh, I'll, um, what's it going to say? Took on, oh, no, but I'm not on Twitter, Thomas, because I went to, when I went to reg, let me tell this to tell you the story, I quickly tell you the story. So when I went to reg, they had this system with the conference where they had a repo, we get a repo and you submitted your talk as a, as a, an issue on the repo. And then they had like a, a format, a form, you know, like, you know, it's like, I'll, what's the topic of the talk? And then at the bottom, it said social media. And this was for the Noster part of, of Bitcoin reg at the Noster conference. And then it said, uh, Twitter profile. And I was drunk at the time. And then where it says Twitter profile, I wrote, if I still have a Twitter profile, by the time this conference, I will eat my own dick. And then I forgot about it because I was drunk. And then like a day before the conference, I was like, oh, man. So then I had to like post this post on Twitter to say, no, I'm not going to use this anymore. I'm on Noster. So check me out on Noster. So I'm at Benark at Noster.com. You need to see my Noster. And I can't use Twitter anymore, which is very sad because I want to, yeah, if you ever want to read tweet things and whatever else, but yeah. I'm sure you can write some posts. I changed my mind or something, but it's, it's a dramatic way to leave Twitter. But I was afraid that Jack Dorsey personally told you to get off there. But this is a much better story. Uh, as Daniel said, I'm in the chat. That I did a McAfee. Never, never say you're going to eat your dick over anything. That's right. Bad for McAfee. Bad for you. Excellent point. Commenter in the chat. Uh, as Daniel said, I just wanted to promote our Peter Todd interviews. Again, I don't know if he's Satoshi or not. Obviously I have no proof. Uh, but I think it's really fun that we know this guy and we've met him a bunch of times. And I talked to him about his first computer, Chris and Amir. Talk to him at the squat in London, uh, 10th September, 2014. Court of Samsung, if you say your dates backwards in the British format, you must be Satoshi. Uh, so that's some, uh, so tells here in our titles, maybe Chris Ellis's Satoshi. Um, but you can check him out here at worldcryptoneatwork.com. And in the comments below, we have lots of interviews with Peter Todd and you can watch them and comment on them and say Satoshi, Jacques Hughes. And, uh, really have some fun, uh, getting back into the Bitcoin here. And then we also have interviews with Adam back and a variety of other people who claimed to be Satoshi like Ben Arck and Theo Goodman and all kinds of other people who are secretly Satoshi. Uh, but I think we're running out of time for today. So thanks to everybody for joining us and give us a thumbs up and subscribe down below if you have that machine that creates subscribers, run that till we get to 100k, uh, so we could get one of those plaques. Maybe you could write it on chat GPT. And, uh, until next time, bye, bye. All the buttons.