The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. Josh Gala from the standard.io. Evening or morning, per viewer. Ben Arck from LNBIT. Hello. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one, issue one, SEC delays. Once again, the SEC has delayed their decision for the spot Bitcoin ETFs, including BlackRock in Vesco and even Valkyrie, who are hit by delays by the Securities and Exchange Commission. Dan, I know we talk about ETFs all the time on this show, but we just can't stop. It doesn't seem like we're getting an ETF anytime soon, does it? No, but there has been some progress with Gensler reiterating that Bitcoin isn't a security, and that's, I think, is more positive than the ETF news. Obviously, there's lots of people that say that the ETF is going to be a big up or a big down for Bitcoin, depending on which way you look at it. In 2017, there was obviously a big dump after the future ETF got approved. But with, actually, I think with Gensler saying that Bitcoin isn't a security in confirming that, right? That's going to open up the doors to a lot more opportunities than I think the ETF in the meantime. There's obviously a lot of speculation, right? There's where BlackRock is going to get their first or the grey scale. There's the shutdown of the government. So there's people saying that technically, if the government did shut down, the US government did shut down by default, because one of the decisions was due or is going to be due at that point that it would be allowed by default. So there's people saying, yeah, no. But ultimately, Bitcoin is Bitcoin. And if Gensler is saying it's not a security, I think that's more positive than getting a decision on the ETF in the short term. Josh, Shagall, why can't we have a spot ETF? Why can't Bitcoin have nice things? Well, it's one of these things that just keep on going on and on. And you know, Bitcoin has this tradition of two weeks, TM. And this all started with butterfly labs. I'm sorry to bring this up, Dan, but butterfly labs, it was always two weeks, TM, as like, when's this thing going to be ready? Two weeks and eventually everything started being two weeks. And so I guess this NFT is two weeks away. That's all I'm going to say about it. It's an ETF, but he's got NFT is on the mind. And Eric, why can't we have an ETF? Why can't Bitcoin have nice things? Because the SEC and they have to, like, the whole reason we're excited about an ETF and we want an ETF is because all these big institutional investors, like the retirement funds and these big institutional investors who can't get exposure to Bitcoin because they don't want to buy Bitcoin and hold it themselves, it would give them exposure and they can have it in their portfolio, which would be very, very good for the price. That's the reason we want an ETF. But the SEC, they need to, the reason those big institutions can invest in an ETF, can invest in Bitcoin via ETF, is because it's a safer way for them to engage with Bitcoin and get some Bitcoin exposure. The SEC just needs to make sure that that's done in a safe way. The reason they'll do it to me is because it's safer. So the SEC needs to be sure that it's safer and that currently I suppose the SEC for every reason to drive their feet probably because they don't like Bitcoin. But also because, like, it is a hard thing to have. You've got a bearer set like gold or something to decorate a spot ETF. And so that's why it's taking a long time. But eventually we did get that. We've been very grateful for the price of the price. I wonder if, like, you know, I could imagine if they actually eventually allow the ETF and then, you know, a few months later it gets hacked or the person, the people holding the keys, you know, had too much security and can't now figure out how to unencrypt or to little security and they get hacked. And then the entire entirety of Wall Street sue the sue Gary Gensler for like losing their money. It could swallow, like you said, Ben, it could swallow up a massive amount of Wall Street cash. Yeah, they don't want to get exposed to it. Exactly. It's got to be safe, man. Like the SEC, I mean, they kind of do the job really, like they've got to make sure that security protocol is just as good as the gas. And maybe with Bitcoin, maybe there isn't the pro-coalerture ETF could do to really, you know, make the SEC happy, maybe one other kind of. It's a fine light, isn't it? Because you're like, even for personal storage, it depends how, how, you know, you can go really secure. You go too little and then you go too much where you just can never piece the sticks and the stuff together again. And yeah, it's that fine line right in between that gap, that nice gap. And that gap's different for everybody, you know. It is a very hard problem. And we've talked about this on the show before as well about governments having this problem and this one when, you know, I mean, personally, I'm not a big fan of governments holding Bitcoin because it's just so hard for a secure basically for a government. If the government goes out of power and you get some psycho that just takes the money and so it takes the private key, it holds the whole country to ransom. Then you've got a dictator in your hands. And then we then we finally get to find out how many Bitcoin can fit in a brief key case in El Salvador, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. And no, Josh, my favorite thing about the Bitcoin ETF is that the very next day they approve the Ethereum ETF. And then everyone gets really mad and then they approve the Litecoin ETF and the Ripple and who knows what else. And again, Bitcoin carries it through the land and it doesn't matter in the end as they just give it over to the others. That's a very good point. So it's like, if you, if you approve a Bitcoin ETF, then you have all these checkpoints coming in and they will marry the ETFs as well. And then you have to then approve them and then they also have like just the, you know, the general's scamminess and maybe not there, but some of the coins which, obviously they have the extra danger of just being, you know, scamming pump and dumps and not decentralized. So it's, yeah, allowing Bitcoin, a Bitcoin ETF could kind of open the floodgates. Well, and what's to say that does coin doesn't deserve an ETF? Dogecoin is certainly just as good as Bitcoin, right? Well, it didn't, didn't, uh, Valkyrie recently get any, uh, futures ETF approved, right? That was in the last couple of days. I don't think it was for a Dogecoin though. No, no, no, don't dogecoin. Is Ethereum? Is Ethereum right? Futures, Ethereum futures for his existing Bitcoin ETF. Yeah, there's been lots of Ethereum futures. Futures things have been approved, but not a spot ETF yet. We're still waiting for the spots. It's like, it's like, it's like trying to hold onto a, a slippery bar. So like these institutions, they don't want to hold on to that slippery bar. So they'll drop it and mess it up. So they want a ETF to hold onto that bar. So for them, but then the SEC needs to make sure that the ETF, they have like stronger fans hold on to that slippery bar. So when the chassis, but those are, I know banks get hacked all the time. All the time. It's just you'll never hear about it because they, you know, they cover it up. They don't want people to think they're insecure. But imagine if it was Bitcoin, right? A bank can just claw it back by basically reissuing and then following the serial numbers. Because all court, all, all Fiat is pretty fun, non-fundruple actually. Because of the serialization. Yeah, if it was Bitcoin, they're screwed and they lost the money. One thing I was thinking is that with banks and any other like PayPal, any other software, you know, company where they're deciding on software decisions. It's always done beside behind closed doors, right? It's always done in a meeting room where they're making these decisions. They're having these arguments over which way to go. Whereas Bitcoin is open source. So you see those arguments air in public. And to the general public, they think that, oh, they, they can't decide on what to do because of this, that and the other. And they think that there's some who are going on that's really a lot more blown out than it actually is. It's just some decision making that's reaching general consensus. But you don't see that process when it happens in Amazon or HSBC or any of these banks where they're deciding on the route to go and why they should implement software and why they shouldn't. You're seeing it open source, airing the laundry, you know, and which is much more beneficial. Because there's more, there's more opinions that are giving their opinion about it. And the service, the invite is not. Is the free and open source sausage being made in public? Like you see all the crap going into it. You under with a beautiful sausage, tastes delicious, but you, you see all the brains and guts and stuff which go into the sausage. The sausage. Oh yeah. And you don't want unaired laundry. Like it starts getting on muffly and disgusting. The smell, you know. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Now that we've exhausted the laundry and the soap analysis. Yes. We need all of this. So Dan, will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week? Josh, Shagalla, higher or lower? I'm looking at a definite high, the triangles and the squares and the circles they're heading up. Ben Arquett's trending towards higher, which way are you going to go? Well, we had a two before nine and then we had an eight before six. So we've got a five coming up, which means this definitely going to go on. Oh, he's got all the magical numbers, but we've got the magic eight ball. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Here we go. Let's say, let's focus without a doubt, without a doubt, the price will be higher. The ball has spoken. Moving on to issue two, the US government shutdown could boost the Bitcoin price. Crypto bulls say, where's the coin heading to? Josh and Gala, it's kind of counterintuitive here, but if the United States House of Representatives run by the Republicans, cannot come to an agreement to keep the government open. This disastrous event will shut down all the national parks, all kinds of services, which will end up paying for anyway. Like many other natural disasters could actually be good for Bitcoin. Josh, what do you think about that? Yeah. The US government is far too big. That's what I think about that. Why? You know, they've shut them down before. They've shut down the government before, but asking a macrocapitalist what these things of the government shutdown is going to happen before and nothing happened. It happened in Spain for like a year and nothing happened. It just the country kept on going. So I just don't think it'll matter. But for Bitcoin, it doesn't matter what happens to politics. It doesn't care what happens to politicians. In fact, politics wasn't even a big thing back in the day. Back in the old days, politics was just a thing that you might get into. In fact, that's why they didn't allow everyone to vote. They just said only a few people who were really interested in this thing can vote on stuff because it didn't really make that much difference. Nowadays, it's just that people obsessed with politics, but it doesn't actually affect that much stuff. It really, it's just the real stuff that affects people is what happens in the private sector. It could be if the price of stocks go down, that the price of Bitcoin could go up as people are running away from stocks, looking for a safe place to put their investments. Ben, Eric, what do you think is the government shutdown good for Bitcoin? I think that any instability people look for stable owners, which they could like anchor their wealth to whatever, and Bitcoin is that. But I mean, yeah, what Josh said is amazing how little impact you actually have in developed countries when you have a government shutdown. I mean, I had a moment when I was working at one point I had three bosses. And there was this period where one of them was off-sick and one of them went off and some sabbatical thing and another one went off with some. Anyway, basically, we didn't have a boss in the little department where I was teaching. We had like, you know, about six months without any bosses. It was probably the happiest working environment I've ever had. And a government shutdown is kind of the same. Like stuff still gets done. There's still departments. You still do. They just don't have to worry about the big boss just, you know, trying to make themselves relevant, like barking down orders and micro-monishing them. Anyway, I like the idea of a public agor where it comes to decision-making. And I think that maybe people are trying to get that with some of the social media stuff and in the way they're becoming more politicized, but that not quite sure how to best vet that energy. I mean, probably we need more direct forms of democracy and, you know, rather than voting every four years or whatever for a politician, we should be voting daily. And maybe people being able to be, they want to be engaged and they want to have their say and part of the frustration of not being able to do that in a daily way on topics which are relevant to them in the country when they live. It's not being able to just watching some politician, like, don't be making these stupid mistakes. Anyway, so, yes, probably good for Bitcoin. Because people are seeing an unstable moment for society, but generally the rest of society will go and work better because, yeah, no masters, we're all on a kiss, so are we? Well, we definitely don't save any money during a government shutdown. The vital services continued, and I don't know how, but somehow they pay them. They have a slush fund somewhere. Meanwhile, everyone else is furloughed, which means they don't have to go to work, but that the government generally owes them money anyway. So for most state and federal workers, they'll be paid back, but the state and federal won't get the work out of them. They'll get the money, but they won't get the work. It's also bad for contractors who may not be paid back after all and could be a real disaster for their plans. It's bad for everybody, but it's always fun to just screw everything up, just for fun. Dan, Eve, what do you think? How will the government shut down in the United States? Potentially affect Bitcoin? Yeah, I'm with the rest of panel. I think it's much to do about nothing, right? You hear all the wild things about what could happen when the government shut down, but things still tick on, the clock still ticks. There's obviously people that will take their furlough and not do the work. There's plenty of people that will carry on working and just be like, you know, this is an ordinary day to me. I'm being paid for it, but I don't think it's going to the office might log on and do some work from home, but it does seem like it's more of a dramatic thing about the, you know, whether it's Republicans in or the Democrats in, it's always a case of they're shutting down the government, right? It's always like I remember it was it, when Obama was in like in 2012 or something like that, when over New Year's Eve, the government was going to be shut down, everyone was like, everything's going to end. It's like the new millennium bug, but, you know, it's still continued, right? Everything's still everyone's still well, for the record, it has only been Republicans that have shut down the government, not Democrats. Oh, no, I'm not saying the Democrats shut it down. I'm saying it was because of Republicans that it got shut down, right? They were the ones that shut that it was when Obama was in, but it was the Republicans that didn't allow it to carry on. But regardless, it does happen, you know, it does happen and things carry on. I think what's going to be good for Bitcoin is when they start handing out those those welfare checks again and everyone catches them in and we see that spike in Bitcoin payments, right? When they did the 2020 welfare payments with the COVID stuff and Bitcoin started pumping because everyone was using their welfare money to all their kind of dull, not dull money, but yeah, their welfare checks to buy Bitcoin and we saw a huge spike. But yeah, it's much do about about nothing, I think. Yeah, it's going to go up, it's going to go down, whether it has an impact on Bitcoin's price, obviously on the mining side, mining's a lot more focused on or concentrated in the US now, but the mining is going to continue. So the government shut down doesn't affect that. I do think it's exciting when we're talking about Bitcoin and we're talking about Bitcoin and the stock market or Bitcoin and the US government because they're equal in size. So I think that's exciting to see that we've come to that point. Hey, check out worldcryptoneatwork.com. We've got 3,148 videos, including a lot of new shorts that you can check out at worldcryptoneatwork.com or on YouTube, worldcryptoneatwork.com. Moving on to issue three, minecraft. No longer has Bitcoin payments. Yes, there was a satoshi server and they were given out satoshi's to anyone who wanted to play minecraft, but the fun is over. Microsoft, the new overlord of minecraft having replaced notch and his company, Mohan Games, is now the new boss and the new boss says, no Bitcoin in minecraft. Ben, Arqu, what do you think about the stunning reversal by Microsoft and the end of Bitcoin minecraft? Yeah, I mean, they were just running, they were running a server where you could sat for playing Minecraft or whatever. I think the fear is when you have like game items, which you can sell for real world money, or you have a way of earning real world money by playing a game, the fear is that you'll end up with sweatshops in some backward country where people are farming Bitcoin, which has happened in the past with a bunch of games, not for Bitcoin, but you know, when they could easily sell things on like a free market of game items or whatever. That's the fear and I can understand where that comes from. It's a shame that like they've just cut off that line of innovation because obviously, Michael payments. Well, computer games and digital digital native currencies like Bitcoin should go hand in hand. And I think like the much of the worries about any technology being used for wrongdoing, often it's like a very small centaur in the rest of people just using it for interesting work and wonderful use cases. I saw that Zapadine were involved in helping build the architecture out which the server used. Zapadine are a great company and they work on Bitcoin lighting payments and bringing them into games and they do a lot of outreach work as well. They go to a lot of game-neak industry conferences and they push Bitcoin to develop this. And they've got a good kind of approach with that rather than trying to kind of like build a game around Bitcoin, like they're trying to sort of help implement Bitcoin into a lot of legacy games. The game I want to see with Bitcoin is quite, there's a great quake and you call Quake.js and actually start a project while back for Quake, Alad, where you could pay to play and then whoever wins just gets all those stats. And it was cool, that's the sort of stuff you want. I guess the problem is, let's say, like Microsoft has taken over from Mojang for Minecraft, which means the development. I mean, Minecraft in general, the development commissioner development environment of Minecraft has just been getting worse over time because obviously they wanted to take control and make money. There are some free and open source alternatives, but it's probably just the wrong platform. For this bleeding edge, we're not bleeding edge, but for this digitally native currency, we used to commit this development environment, development environments. And that's probably what we should also have for whatever game in which we implement Bitcoin payments. Hopefully they'll be able to, aren't there a sprint of like, SVK-E's server if people can use for Minecraft? Maybe that's not even possible, I don't know. Or maybe they can switch and offer a similar service to which is the different game. And pick something, maybe a little bit free of more free enough resource, free of resources, obviously the way to go for everything. And we'll eventually win all these. But yeah, they just maybe picked the wrong platform. Well, I agree, Ben. I think ID Software is the perfect example there. John Carmack was very serious about open sourcing. All of ID Software Quake, Wolf 3D, Doom, all of these games, and letting people create level editors and meet unique new things you could do with the game. Sadly, Minecraft used to be the same way. I think it's very sad that Microsoft feels they have to do this, like you're saying, probably to protect the children. But once again, it feels like it's cutting Minecraft, which for all of its blockiness is actually a pretty innovative game. It's cutting them off from innovation. Dan Eve, what do you think about no more Bitcoin in Minecraft? Well, it's sad. Bitcoin is like the internet currency, right? And so pulling it out of a game that's so interweave with the internet, and it's such a huge online game. It's just a bad thing. And we should be seeing more integration with Bitcoin more. But because the fact that people are trying to hold onto profits, Microsoft has been trying to gain control. They want to be able to control what people can make money off of in their own platform. And rather making it more free, and more open source, they're making it more closed, more directed by where they want the money to go, where they want the money to flow. I do think the point about sweatshops is a valid point. I remember reading back in the day about even like was it second life where you could build up credits and people would be like, you know, farming these credits and then to being able to sell the money and there was someone whipping them in the background of, you know, make more credits, make more credits. But do more things. You know, that's obviously pretty bad. But the idea about using Bitcoin as a payment source, payment service to be able to trade assets within the game, that's the whole point of the internet is being able to openly and freely transact information, and money is kind of another source of information. So it's just sad that Microsoft have gone that way, whereas like, you know, GitHub, they bought over GitHub, right? And it seemed like they were going to be going a bit more, a bit more crazy over the control of GitHub. They haven't been too bad with that. So it's sad to see them do that with Minecraft, which was such a huge game. But that's Microsoft, right? And yeah, there is a trail. It does seem a lot like the early internet where everything bad could be done with the early internet, but also everything good can be done with the early internet. So it's very hard for people to separate those two. Josh, Shagall, you've been in Bitcoin a long time. This harkens back to when Apple was trying to block Bitcoin wallets from their phone. They wanted to protect their 30% app store monopoly. What do you think about Microsoft blocking Bitcoin from Minecraft? Well, all of these poor eight-year-olds buying drugs and weapons in Minecraft are going to have to buy drugs and weapons in the real world now. You know, it's a shocker. But actually, you know, the thing is that Microsoft is so heavily invested in AI. And the thing is that these agents, these AI agents, they cannot get bank accounts. They're, what are they going to use to transact in? Well, they're going to use Bitcoin. They're going to use cryptocurrencies. So I think Bitcoin within Minecraft is really important because when you work for something and you want to trade it, you're actually understanding that there's real value there as a kid. And if you remove that, then you do this work and you've got this thing that's valuable, but it's not valuable anymore because the platforms remove that. I don't know. I think there's lessons there for kids to learn about how to trade, how to butter, how to haggle. I think it's unfortunate. Yeah, but like Ben said, you can, you know, Minecraft servers, as I know it, I'm not 100% versed in Minecraft, but I'm pretty sure it's something that you can run a server on. And maybe it's banned on like Minecraft.com or something, but I'm pretty sure you can run Minecraft servers and then stick it in there. I remember someone made a whole casino in Minecraft. Huge slot machine that you could pull and all this sort of stuff. So maybe the Microsoft was pushed through one of these agencies that protect the gambling industry from any competition. It could be regulators. I should say I shouldn't say that. Preferably regulators. But yes, moving on to the exit question. Minecraft memories. Do you have any unique memories about Minecraft or anything that you really like about the game? Let's go to BenArc first. Not really Minecraft. I mean, I used to play it on my son. Like a young father when Minecraft came and came out. So I don't really have any time on my hands. But yeah, we still have a lot of fun on it. It's great how it sort of straddles the generations. Like people play out not kids. I won't play it. There's a whole bunch of people still play out now and it's been going for a couple of decades. Not far have got a very fond memory of when I was a Bitcoin conference. And I bumped into Chris Moss, who is one of the co-founders of Zebadi. You probably, like I said, built the architecture for this. Minecraft server initiatives. It's a really good company. It does lots of really good work when it comes to adding Bitcoin payments into a computer games. And I mentioned something that we chatted about on the show. It was like the Saturday when I bumped into it when we'd done the show on the Friday. And then Chris was like, oh yeah, yeah, I saw that on WCM. And I was like, oh, you watch the show and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was so excited to see Chris if you got there. Hello. But it was like another example of like we don't have sometimes when it comes to our views. We don't have like huge views. But the quality of some of the people we've got watching this show is amazing. So, you know, probably certainly what you want us to show. It's a company decision. When you build something great, and it's a platform, people want to engage with it, and then they want to contribute back to it. They start building products services projects on top of it, on top of your product. And then you have this decision, do we go more closed or do we become more open? And the greatest and most successful companies, they encourage openness and they encourage development. Even like a company like Lagom, you know, someone starts manufacturing like little guns for Lego figures and they have like a no gun policy. And then they're like, why do we go and sue these people? Or do we let the platform be open? And they can develop and sell, you know, little Lego things which isn't right with our little Lego guys. And then they're like, okay, we're going to keep it open. So, that's one example. But again, with Minecraft, like Josh was saying, if they went from more of an open, permissionless development environment, then all these people who love the system and they want to contribute back to it, they were built on these amazing and incredible experiences. So, it's always the answer. If you have a big company in a very successful project, it's not put in a walled garden, like make it nice to open and invite everybody into development. Unfortunately, I think Microsoft is following the Twitter and the Ethereum example, where you offer one thing, then change it in the end. Minecraft was very open and free. Twitter had an API. Ethereum was proof of stake. It was proof of work. Sorry. Then you spread it out there, get it installed on everyone's computer. And then you change your mind, make it proof of work, take away the Twitter API, and then make it so you can't play Bitcoin in Minecraft. It's a pretty obvious bait and switch now, Facebook, many of the other large internet companies seem to be going this way. Dan, if you have any Minecraft memories, anything you enjoy about playing the game? I've genuinely never played it. But like every now I dip the other day, so I downloaded, so I like old strategy games like Red Alert, Command and Conquer, Transport Tycoon. I've got there's OpenTTD. Open Transport Tycoon is still going. And so I was having a little play on that the other day, Theme Hospital. I wish they did a theme park. That would be amazing. Or like, you know, if they revamp the theme park, I've seen the iPad version or something, and like it will cost you 500 pounds to be able to buy all the individual bits, right? That's really bad. And this is another example where they could go open source like Transport Tycoon did. They let them go. I think it's Chris Sawyer that did the, I think it was Chris Sawyer, Transport Tycoon anyway. It's all open source now, right? So you can create the game. Whereas obviously, like Theme Park was owned by EA or Bullfrog and then it went to EA and EA aren't obviously going to give the rights up. So it's one of these sad things. Like it's a 20 year old, 30 year old game. I want to go back and just like have a little play, right? But you've got to buy the original off of EA games that haven't revamped it at all. You've still got to buy it for 10 pounds, which was probably the same worth value now than, you know, the back then it was worth it in terms of inflation. So it's really sad. But I've got enough, lots of friends that play Minecraft and they absolutely love it. I haven't got into it yet, but it's, you know, it sounds like it. It sounds like a fun game, but it just seems like another overreach of control, right? Take everyone's fun and just shrink it down so that you can't do all these individual things that you can do. And then there is, didn't Apple as well, but they're going back on Microsoft. They they've tried to sell Apple Bing at one point, but probably didn't buy it just because of the name, because that's really crap like Bing. Is this, you know, I don't know if they ever try to sell Apple Bing. That'll be interesting. Yeah, I can't believe I'm with the only four people on the internet who don't play Minecraft. I've been playing Minecraft since the beta. I like all the simplicity parts of it. Like if you dig straight down too much, you get stuck forever. And that's it. Your game's over. I like the way that you can build things during the daytime. Then at night, the creepers and other things will attack you. And just the the basic simplicity of the way you build a shovel out of two sticks and a piece of wood or two sticks and a stone becomes a stone shovel. Just the way that things can be built with other parts of the game. It also reminds me of a level editor for Quake or Doom, something that I would play anyway. And there wouldn't be a game there. So to put the game inside of the level editor was the true genius of Minecraft. Josh, you call it. Do you have any Minecraft memories? We still got a chance here. Is anybody actually played this game? No, I never played it. I'm too old for it. But we had ours. We had our games that I can't write. I was just never really I played Street Fighter. But yeah, someone in the chat said bit 47. You know, payment codes are a really interesting way that you could segment this because you can put a message in there. And you could definitely circumvent with some of these interesting ways. You know, you don't need Bitcoin within Minecraft. You don't need Minecraft to recognize Bitcoin. What's Bitcoin for? What's Bitcoin for? What's Bitcoin for? What's this? What's it for? So basically, it defines a technique for payment codes. And you can basically put a message into as far as I understand that you can put a message into that kind of like a reference code into Bitcoin. So correct me if I'm wrong chat. Yeah, that's cool. So you could you could like almost pay to play and then put the reference and then you could have something looking for the reference code in the band. Yeah. And then do a thing. Yeah. So just like in banking when it says reference and then you put little thing in there. So the company knows it's the money's come from you. Yeah, it's cool. And originally there was another server that did have Bitcoin Minecraft before this. They even had a fun thing where you could take the Bitcoin, which were I think diamonds or emeralds, one of the really fancy items in Minecraft, then you could throw them in the lava and see what would happen. Does it? I think that was Bitcoin. I don't know. That was another one of off you as Jay to look spilled that Minecraft. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a classic classic Minecraft server. And I actually played on there. You could play on it. It was super fun. And somehow you get some satosies. So it's too bad. You can't do that at Microsoft anymore. The the no fun crew these days. Moving on to issue four coin base holds 25 billion dollars in Bitcoin. That's 5% of the total supply. It's time for everyone to freak out because Coinbase now has perhaps a near monopoly on Bitcoin holding 5% of the supply. I actually am going to go Devils advocate here and say it's not actually that bad a thing. But Dan Eve tell us how bad it is that Coinbase owns 5% of all Bitcoin. I don't I don't say on the airing on the site of a disaster. I don't think it's that bad because if they lose the private keys, then 5% like gone and everyone's like, well, so no one knows 5%. See, I'm down on the other side where I say at least this 5% can't be lost. Us idiots with our keys and our stupid computers are going to lose the rest of the Bitcoin. At least we could say there's 5% that's safe on Coinbase that you guys could use to trade. How safe those. I wonder if they're using like Schemeer secrets or they're they've got like two letters of the private keys split up into 120 different bank accounts. And you know, they if you really yeah, I've been reading treaties here there like security system. How how developed it is. But it must be pretty hardcore. I read ones that they have like tents. They have in order to do certain transactions, they have electromagnetic like fields around certain tents where they can't be penetrating. They can only do a sign of transaction within this specific tent. So if you're someone that's like, you know, a grandparent who's like, oh, I don't want to I want to have Bitcoin, but I don't want to hold my own private keys. I can't even remember what you know what I had for supper last night. Let alone to remember where I put my private seed. Then it's good for those people, but for for someone else, you know, we like to hold our own private keys. It's like holding your own destiny, right? Becoming the master of your own universe or whatever he man is or the she man or whatever it is in 2023. But mastering of their universe. I don't know. But the fact is that you can give other people your private keys, but if they've gone, they've gone and you've got that regret that you gave it to someone else, whereas if you hold it yourself, you know, you are the master of your own destiny. You've just got to be happy and be confident in the way you're in your storing your private key, because when you lose it, you lose it. So if you're giving it to another company, you're offsetting the handing off that risk that that company is managing that process correctly, whether it's from the the signing process to whether it's actually storing the seed so that if something happened, if there's you know, an office party where 50 of them suddenly die and that's like 75% of the private keys, and they may, you know, there's only a few people left. That's what happens when you hand off the risk to someone else. But I think it's kind of a kind of a good thing actually that they're actually holding it because it means if something does happen and the supply's gone, now, number one, it's going to be off the market or it will be it will be dumped. But there's no way you can just sell 25 billion dollars of Bitcoin in one particular exchange. You know, it's going to be a lot of money to have to get rid of. And you've seen how hard it was for say the guys that stole from Bitfinex, the rapper and a boyfriend, how they stole the money and how difficult it was for them to actually sell it. And the other guy who also stole from Silk Road, right, and got caught with with the Bitcoin stored in some sort of safety deposit box under his floorboards. It's really hard to get rid of. Dan, all you have to do is sell 25 billion dollars worth of PS5s. That's more than like all the PS5s so far. Just wait for the PS6. I like how the PS5 is the unit of account. How many PS5s is that worth? Ben's dog, a doggy. But Josh, what do you think Coinbase holds all these Bitcoins? Naturally, I don't worry about it. I remember when they bought it. I forget the name, but it was Wences-Cezares' company. And they had a whole vault system, like a physical underground Swiss vault with guards and fair-day cages. And I imagine that's where the Bitcoin is. It's all safe and secure. Surely, Josh, you can trust Coinbase. Well, you know, it really, it's the other 95% which is held by like seven shady Russians in a hot tub. It's really important to think about the 95% that's out there in this case. But actually, most of the Bitcoin has been lost. So I think what, like 20% is just an insane amount because people just can't get their shit together to store their Bitcoin well enough. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think for those hardcore Bitcoiners who are obsessed with self-custody, and I agree, it's really important that we are obsessed with self-custody. I think there's always going to be a case for the Coinbase because to get mainstream adoption, some people just want the old-school banking type of UX. And that's what Coinbase does. And, you know, they've done it pretty well up until now. They've, of course, security-wise in terms of IRS and all of this thing hasn't been the best. But in terms of holding the actual Bitcoin, they've done a pretty stellar job. I haven't been hacked. That's a very, there's something you cannot say for most exchanges. I'm proud to say that Voltura is also one of these exchanges that hasn't been hacked in the whole time that it's been around since 2015. So it's, yeah, it's, you know, good on them for holding for that long, saying that, if you have a substantial amount on Coinbase, I would definitely recommend at least diversifying onto some sort of hardware wallet and self-custody. He's always a winner because you know that that thing cannot be hacked. Although I have read stories where someone's used a paper wallet, followed all of the protocols, bought a laptop that's fresh, disconnected from the internet download, the software to generate a seed, not even a seed to generate, an address. And then it was gone. It was gone because the the the address generator, the randomness had a hack and he went to a dodgy site. So yeah, it's a difficult thing. It's not easy to be absolutely secure and well Coinbase has professionals. But so did LastPass. LastPass had professionals, they have professionals that are obsessed with security yet they got hacked. And so it's difficult, right? It's one of these fine lines again. Where do you go? Do you go super easy to use and and get hacked or potentially lose security there or do you go too secure and screw it up? Well, it's really sad Josh for someone to have all the skills and the knowledge to get an air gap laptop and to maybe use tails, linux and all these various important steps. But then to have a lack of trust in one of the tools at the beginning, the JavaScript wallet generator. And so Ben, Josh actually has me thinking now maybe more than five percent should be in Coinbase. Maybe we'd be safer with 10 or 20 or 30 percent of all Bitcoin in this wonderful trust-worthy company. Ben, what do you think about Coinbase holding so much Bitcoin? I mean, I think to most people, the good hardware wallet like Trezos, the best and also the best device I've ever gave me was to use Trezza. I think it's the best hardware wallet that has been and that entry piece good. It uses RNG. That's hardware RNG as well. It hasn't got secure element, but just make sure you haven't got a like a crop made. And I would assume that Coinbase probably has been hacked. Like I still got 25 billion worth of Bitcoin on their box. I mean, it's not it's going to be enough for any day bank run on Coinbase, but I think we can assume that like HSBC has been hacked and like Deutsche Bank has been hacked. And their closed systems where we don't know if they've been hacked or not. And Coinbase is also a closed system, but it is a Bitcoin exchange. So it gets attacked a lot. I mean, like I said before, like we have a a lot of, I remember it's demo server. I mean, I'm sure that that's constantly being attacked from all these random IP addresses because it's got the sweetly, it's got the good stuff in it. It's got the Bitcoin, which if you get hold of then you can, you know, love you, skate and secure in a way where this is not traceable. And I'm sure Joss has experienced this with with Votoro that it gets a lot of traffic, which is people just trying to find vulnerabilities in the system. So it's amazing when you get exchanges, which you know, I think for I trust Votoro has been hacked. I'm not sure if I trust Coinbase hasn't been hacked to be fair. But it is good that they're building the security protocols, which maybe the SEC, if there is an ETF, they'll say, well, you know, they'll use someone like Coinbase as an example and say, okay, what's the security protocol? I would like to see more of these exchanges releasing information on how they secure that Bitcoin. Like I guess that there is also a trace of vulnerability in itself that like you're giving the blueprint to the hackers. But I would like for more best of to be shared. But if you have enough like old storage wallets and then you have enough pop wallets, which should pay back to the full storage wallets and that transport layer is secure, then I'll speak to a couple of cracking people about this recently on this security stuff. And it was pretty cool. I like the the thing they built to secure the Bitcoin. But yeah, I mean ultimately I suppose if they lose keys then everyone's rich, so that's good. And then if a hacker steals the money, then they're not going to jump on the market because that'll decrease the value of the thing, we still stolen, so they're probably selling it for a while. You would hope unless there's some government or something you want to crush Bitcoin. But even then it's such a large amount of money that they would probably sell off slow. I don't know, but sell off slowly. So yeah, so it's not something I would worry about that. Probably they're pretty good at securing Bitcoin by now, even though they probably have those some Bitcoin hacked. But yeah, for everyone out there, like the easiest way of securing Bitcoin is to use a tracer and don't buy try it this like what you've said before about on that spectrum of security, you go too far the other way and you create vulnerabilities just by having an overly complex system. Before with the magic eight ball, I was thinking we should probably have RNG, RNG hardware eight ball. I was thinking we should stop it. We need a verified eight ball, we need a better random eight ball that's not that's secured. Like truly random. And there's actually like, I won't go into it, but this entire, whoever had a random naughty, it's amazing. There's a telegram group. It's one of my favorite telegram groups. The shit they talk about, basically, it's people using RNG, randomness to find to get GPS coordinates and then they go to the random GPS coordinates. And these people are very eccentric and they think that they're breaking up the simulation by using RNG. It's so fun. But anyway, the magic eight ball, I think that we could sell that as a product to the other to the random or people because they really dig the entropy. But anyway, that's the side note. I think they would like a more random one. There have been some interesting hacks here in Las Vegas recently, Ben. The Caesar's corporation was allegedly hacked, but we don't know because they're also allegedly paid the hackers. There's a new law in the United States where they have to put that on the books eventually. So we will know if Caesar's paid them. MGM did not pay and had their system shut down, had trouble with checking in guests, couldn't run their slot machines, had trouble with their parking systems, all kinds of problems. So at the current time, it does look like it's worth it to pay the hackers and then the hackers, it's worth it for them to give you your data back so that people will pay in the future. So it's a lot of game theory right there. A little sign though. So once we did get like a couple of years ago, we had an active vulnerability in our list and our demo. So we had like a significant amount of money stolen and then I was like, oh man, and I got in contact with the honest, it was on they messaged me to say all those vulnerabilities. There's a random like telegram account, we should be generated by just like an, you know, like a non thing. And then I spoke to the person, I was like, oh man, you sold so much money and it's really sad, like can I have some of it back? And it's like, yeah, give it you pretty much all of it back. He gave me like nine tens of the money back and then he kept one tenths is about it. And then also told us how to pass the the whole. Never heard from him again. It's a complete and non telegram account and it just gave me faith in humanity, faith in Bitcoiners. I think like this is freeing up with such projects and they want to come to be back. But it's just cool. Like this person could have just kept all the money and just told us the vulnerability and that would have been good enough, but they didn't they get back. So if that person is watching, thank you very much. Let's get they see they see the value in the project so that they don't want to kill it. They just want to make it better. That's what that's what's good about it. They're going on the entry thing was was it I read recently about lava lamps, right? So some some guys generate and private seeds from lava lamps. Yeah. So like yeah, lava lamps are one of the true generators of randomness. There's a lot of cryptographic projects where they use that to create the seed like a wall full of lava lamps to generate this randomness. You need it. That's mad. I think we're running out of our own randomness here. It's time to go to predictions or story of the week. Dan Eve, you can start us off with a prediction or a story of the week. Probably about lava lamps. Oh no, I'm going to go for some really sad story, right? So get your violins out. This is really bad. So I was driving along and I'm going to try and keep it short because it's very sad and don't be upset because I was but I found a driving long and and there was a little pigeon, a little fledgling and it in the middle of the road and so I stopped the traffic because there was even people that looked like they were trying to run the thing over. Jesus Christ. So like ran through the road, picked up this little pigeon, took him back, called him Barry because they're Barry V2 because there was Barry V1 which is racing pigeon that got that like hurt itself at my parents house and he kept them coming back for years later. Anyway, so Barry V2 was looking after him and he was doing really good, spent a couple of days with us and I was feeding him sternum and you know, he was just mission around. He escaped from the garage which is good because they're probably staying a cold dark place while they get better. He escaped from the garage, he was just mission around the garden. The dogs like loved him and the kids loved him and they're like, oh Barry, one of the kids the other one was just like, go go go and then, oh god, it's a bit graphic but I was really growing attached to Gary and Barry and I came back from dropping my son off picking my son up from school and there's a fucking magpie literally packing his eyes out and the Lord, Barry's dead. Like, oh, it's really upset. This is why I needed my friends from WCN to come back. I think you thought I had a red dead relative or something but Barry was a relative, very close one, very quick. So I'm glad you came back to give me some support because yeah, Barry's like, I don't want to do them but Hudson saw it and I was like covered his eyes. I was like, don't look over there and he was like, but Barry and I was like, no Barry's fine and he was like, what about the blood and I was like, forget about the blood. It's just, it's just happy he's just eating a gooseberry or a raspberry or something. So the moral of the story, there's no moral just poor Barry. Don't help birds, that's the moral. Awful story Dan. I'm reminded of what Jack Handy once said. If a child asks you, why is raining? I think a cute thing to tell him is God is crying. If he asks you why God is crying, I think another cute thing to tell him is probably because of something you did. All right, Josh, you got another story that we're hopefully not involving the Andy. Yeah, or if the ice cream trucks playing music, it means they've run out of ice cream. Yes, get the best. Shocker. The story of the week, we are, the standard is officially one of the fastest growing projects on uptrend now, which is the layer two on Ethereum. So I'm really, really proud of everybody and the team and working on this. And yeah, again, it's fully free and open source. And yeah, I'm just super stoked. So it's been a long road, but it's getting there. Yeah. Awesome. Josh, congratulations to Josh and the team with the standard for getting it launched and getting it out there. And that's great that people are using it. You're getting some traction on it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and I've got another story of the week just quickly. So last pass, like I mentioned, a year ago got hacked, right? And what for those that don't know, last pass, it's one password and it stores all your passwords and creates nice fat ones. But the hackers, it was a really sophisticated hack. I won't go into it, but they, they, they really spearfish them. And and they got these blobs of data, 330 million accounts, like a lot. And each account has hundreds of passwords and notes and all sorts of stuff. Anyway, they're all encrypted these blobs. So the last pass was, I don't worry about it. If you pass words strongly, I can't get in. But, but now someone at MetaMask has started to realize that some large OG accounts are started to get hacked. And the common denominator between all of them is that they had their seed in last pass. And, and so they're, they're thinking, which is probably right, is that these hackers are finding email because the the only thing that wasn't encrypted in these blobs with the emails attached to the blobs. So the hackers know which blobs belongs to who. And, and so they're just going through like old Mt. Gox or whatever, just finding OGs in the space with the emails and then brute forcing these these things. So I had a wallet in there that was a test wallet where the seed was in last pass. And I started to think shit, you know, after over time, test wallets become real wallets because money in there is becomes worth more and more. And you're like, ah, better. Anyway, I went to some other places where I borrowed like locked up collateral and borrowed against it and stuff like that within the Ethereum space and on competitors sides. And it was really difficult to pay off the debt at a loss because Ethereum had dropped in price since I took out the debt and and that sucked. And then I had to pay for transaction to get the crypto, the collateral out. And then I had to move the collateral to an uncompromised seed. And then I had to like, if I wanted to take the loan out, send it again, take the loan out at nightmare, whereas with the standard because we issue dynamic NFTs that pull data from the blockchain and display, ah, what's in this debt, I understand that I had like 25 or 20 different seeds, sorry, different vaults. And I could just selected all of the NFTs and sent them in one transaction to a new uncompromised seed. And they all just disappeared from the from the all one, and reappeared in the new one. So the debt and collateral all moved without me having to pay off debt, without me losing money, without anything, the all of the smart vaults just moved to a new seed. And it was such a glorious thing. It was it was a use case that I hadn't designed for. You know, it was like, I just wanted this this this ability to sell debt or transfer debt and collateral. And and yeah, so this use case was a real sort of a great story of, hey, you build something cool. And then use cases start appearing for why why this should happen. So yeah, it really, really interesting use case and and yeah, that's the story. Well, I just can't believe people are still storing their seeds inside of one password or last pass or any of these systems. I remember a long time ago, someone thought they were really clever and started storing their seeds in evernote. And of course, their evernote got hacked and they went through and they scanned their seeds. And they found them right away. It was no problem at all. And it's this idea where the seed is like the padlock for your thing and then your password is your key and you're storing your padlock and your key in the same place. It's just so obviously dangerous. And I hope that no one listening has stored their their seeds. It's one thing to store password in a password manager. But if you put both halves of the key, essentially, both of them in there, it could be a real disaster and sad to see those OGs lose their money that way. Ben, are you have a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. Prediction. So stories of the week is well, you got next week, I'll be a Bitcoin Plus Plus in Berlin. And that's an exciting conference because that's all on on next and having a using next Bitcoin. Finally, people are starting to pay attention to next Bitcoin. It's probably the most important Bitcoin project, I think, because you have, you can build a reproducible Bitcoin node when you're installing software on hardware, depending on the hardware you're installing on the software X differently and that sucks. So next, guess where I'm at? Anyway, I'm looking forward to that one simple in next week. I hope that you can do the show live from there. I'm really excited to hear that the standard IO is launched and that people are recognising it for how incredibly useful it is. Josh is a very hardworking guy and he's been working on the same for years. I mean, he feels like years, he must be years. And yeah, yeah, and it's, that's the testament to you rolling out polished and ready for production, where so many people might be rolled out a little bit earlier. And it's a testament to your just your diligence. Hey, thanks Ben. Congratulations. Maybe I shouldn't have polished it so long. Nobody says, I mean, like it's your reacting in the way which you're responsible for other people's money and like it's exactly the way that the way we should behave in the ecosystem. And yeah, no, it's it's hugely beneficial. I remember I read a Reddit post and somebody was really struggling because they had to they were buying this house and they had to let go of like 90% of the Bitcoin old things or something. Or each set of the Bitcoin old Insta Buy this house. And then but they just they there was like this all that is like I can go buy the house so I keep the Bitcoin which do I do you know, I'm a life of a buyhouse. And whereas you offer them this third option which is like you don't have to just sell the Bitcoin to buy the house. There's other things you can do. So that I think as a third option, it's just it's such a great thing to offer people. Yeah, and especially with capital gains tax when you sell because it's not only 95% now. If he goes and buys that house or they it would then they'd buy the house 95% then they don't have enough to cover capital gains tax. So they might have to sell the house or take out a lean against it to pay for the taxes. Like this is nightmare. Why not borrow against it? And instead of using a centralized service like Blockfire, you know, this and this is the problem I just you know, to conquer 332. I would have built on Bitcoin but it just hasn't got hasn't got the the op returns that I need to build this thing. But what would you rather? Something that's slightly less centralized like a theory, slightly less decentralized like Ethereum because that's a scale or or you want to use with pure Bitcoin and then only use Bitcoin exchanges that are fully centralized, totally corruptible, nonsense, Blockfire, Cell, all these sort of things that have centralized. We have to trust because you know, I really feel like us Bitcoin is we have to go, okay, there's technology and there's a scale of decentralization and and while there are many many scams in the Ethereum space, there's many many scams and Bitcoin too and there's many many scams and centralized authorities like. I'm not like the Ethereum space has got said. This is why I was I cited on the you know, the on the drive chain to pay while I was citing with full stores. It's because I want to see that innovation on Bitcoin. I want to see people be able to build those sorts of things quickly and because I mean with Ethereum this is where the building castles on the sand but I think now Ethereum has got the point where it's kind of proved itself to be. I mean it's like it's this it's it's I wouldn't personally worry about using the sand bio on Ethereum, you know, I would prefer it's got Bitcoin but like I say that we're just not there yet and hopefully we'll get there but it is quite depressing the whole the whole drive chain fiasco. Well maybe you know now that layer 2s are starting to become more variant in Bitcoin. Maybe someone will build a layer 2 on Bitcoin in a new way where you are truly using Bitcoin but you can have a larger a larger surface to to actually create. Well I mean so like so so on drive chains like they released the entire like Ethereum like the most upstate version of Ethereum as a drive chain that's one of the drive chains and that uses Bitcoin so you just replace the thing for Bitcoin more less natively. I mean obviously I would go against that drive chain today but it is it really would be nice if we had like a development environment which like welcomes all this incredible interesting like DeFi projects like Edstund Dio but whatever like you know Ethereum works well for now but it would be cool to venture here on Bitcoin. It would be cool and some people say I want to you just use rsk or or stacks but then you are using another another chain it's not Bitcoin it's it's anchoring to Bitcoin every so often. Yeah but yeah well you could have all that thing and you could have that development environment but then it wouldn't be Bitcoin. There's something about Bitcoin where people like to protect it at a higher level they wouldn't let Vitalik build Ethereum on top of Bitcoin and ever since then the Dio has been cast people want to be more secure. The whole point of drive chains is that you would have the the issue is that you you may scale my own sense of right but the whole point of drive chains is that normal Bitcoin is using Bitcoin however they want to use it like it just continues but you could then have these side chains which were merged from a blind merged mind which you could then do like Manero Ethereum you could just do all the functionality which people clearly want in the world you could then do them all Bitcoin and then have it like sleeping in that book whatever and they will get there eventually that would be some sort maybe it's not drive chains maybe it's some other thing will get there eventually where like these amazing projects like the standard I can find at home on Bitcoin. Yeah and I think I'm sorry what's this going to say from a technical perspective then does the implementation of drive chains does it does it hinder Bitcoin security what's the impact. No I saw actually I actually think it makes Bitcoin security better because miners get paid for merge mining blind merge mining these are the chains which means that I mean there's no example of a blockchain being secured by fees only and if you get rid of the mining reward like we're assuming that fees only will pay for the miners to keep Bitcoin secure but basically there's more money available to miners there's more miners are going to come up forward to mine Bitcoin and secure Bitcoin. The fear is that it's skewer mining incentives because they could act in a way which is favorable to a drive chain which isn't favorable to on-chain but I think that it's very unlikely and a lot of those concerns are based on the fact that Bitcoin mining isn't decentralized enough so we need a lot more work on particularly with the pools like you've been asked easily yes exactly switch hash power like make it really easy for that to happen so if they're not happy if if a miner becomes like if they become corrupt and if they try and take because they're basically like with Bitcoin you have to 51% attack where's with the drive chains like you can 25% attack the drive chain so it's really important that mining is more decentralized but I think that's like a Bitcoin issue really but I actually think the concept of powering all these side chains using the same mining security model is the sound concept it's just those sorts of creases we're getting out and yeah it's cool it's great that the style of the idea is fantastic and I'm just kind of jealous I kind of want that shell I want to come Bitcoin natively and I just just want to say to why I really want it on Bitcoin yeah I really do and you know thinking about a lot about it I thought a lot a lot about how to deploy on Bitcoin and it was just impossible and and so the thing is that even if Bitcoin did implement this the problem is that it's doing it so late the problem is that a lot of Bitcoin excellence they don't want Bitcoin to change and that's fair enough I get it because Bitcoin does what it does and you don't want to you don't want to broaden that attack surface you what Bitcoin does what it does and it's great so drive chains is a great opportunity absolutely and and and we can do it on there the problem with that then is liquidity liquidity is really really tricky because liquidity and network effect is really what drives the ability to have have an ecosystem so what what what would drive you know why would someone use a Bitcoin DeFi over Ethereum DeFi is when Ethereum or if Ethereum got compromised at its core then they would realize wow mining proof of work is better I'm going to go over there and use it over there because we've seen now the proof of stake doesn't work so really it's a proof of stake versus proof of work thing now and and in one way obviously I hope it never happens because if if Ethereum gets hacked the trust globally on Encrypto as a whole with including Bitcoin will will be brought down a notch or five so um it would just be a little bit happen but if you have like a drive chain thing we had Ethereum was drive chain there'll be a little less friction you could probably just transpose everything you've done in the stunt diet onto that if we have a gobbah thing in and and then for me like I could get a class rise loan on the standard IO just using my Bitcoin and it would I wouldn't have to do any like swapping out Ethereum or anything you would just do much more seamless yeah you can but then also so like with with a Bitcoin with the maxi stance it's very kind of like the binary you know good and bad Bitcoin's perfect we shouldn't change in action is action like if you don't change Bitcoin it's going to change because of the way in which coins get minted and puts the system to secure the system so by doing nothing like Bitcoin will change and it's security model will change never to know some change around it like not doing anything isn't isn't doesn't mean that the system's going to remain the same as it is now like it's always going to change until we get rid of them the the mining incentive and we just face our whole system of fees which there's no so it's like yeah so this this is like you can use Bitcoin you can use Bitcoin on I mean the other thing is sort of like scale like you know like if we're scaling like Bitcoin scales to us and a bunch of ordinary tickets who are like sparing the chain right okay and then it's like what if the whole world tries to use Bitcoin so like Bitcoin will change if you do nothing and it will get worse and its features or whatever like it's it's not like we can just Bitcoin will it stakes out to the same as it is now just by doing nothing it's it's not true so it makes yeah yeah all the world people use a Bitcoin you know the the theory that Bitcoin should change it shouldn't probably change you know it is really good at what it does it probably shouldn't it's really good at what it does for like the few people who are using it like us not you know like an on-chain I can pay you know whatever maximum like a couple of quid and making getting on chain transaction in yeah but then if the whole world's using Bitcoin it changes then if the whole yeah financial infrastructure of the planet is based on Bitcoin which I personally want it to be then it changes so it makes sense to scale to meet that yeah what is the way down right yeah sure what I would love to see is so RGB was working on a layer 2 for using I think it was using lightning to build smart contracts within Bitcoin and I would really love to see how that evolved I haven't kept up with the project for a while but I think I should be actually relied upon something getting forked in on chain in order for its work which I think was in there that was an assumption that we've got forked in so that's I think that soft forked yeah and that's like yeah okay good luck I think we do have some conferences coming up Josh you might learn more about this at HCPP isn't that this weekend I think 10th and the 4th of October 4th and 5th Cali Cali from Ellen Bits is in HCCP and he's doing a talk on cashew so if you're in Prague go check it out and then Ben where were you going this weekend Bitcoin plus plus in Berlin that's the next Bitcoin thing it's very important and then the week after that this Bitcoin Amsterdam that's it's less technical we will Alan Bits and make a bit look at the communities we will be running the workshop area for that so over the three days so come and come and hang out with us I'll be a lot of them very cool and I know they just had the honey badger Bitcoin convention the ball to honey badger up in Latvia so there's been a lot of chances at least in Europe to go to some Bitcoin conferences and maybe talk to some people about what's going on and this new stuff and what everybody's working on but right now we're running out of time so still a chance you to give us a like down below or to put your comment in or say hello in the chat until next time bye bye