The Bitcoin Group, the American Original, for over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. And I'm Tomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one Bitcoin Laundra pleads guilty, admits to massive BitFinex hack. As we talked about a couple of days ago, Ilya Lichtenstein, Rosalcon's husband, has taken credit for the Bitcoin BitFinex hack, where 120,000 Bitcoins worth around $70 million at the time, perhaps even $2.5 billion now, were stolen by the pair, with now Ilya, Dutch, Lichtenstein taking credit for the hack. We're still not sure how he did it. Remember BitFinex was secured by BitGo and their third party signing utility, which was supposed to sign every transaction. BitFinex recovered from the hack by issuing debt tokens to their users, which they then bought back from their users at far less than 100% of the value of those tokens. Dan Eave, what do you think about the hackers, the hack, and now allegedly Ilya, the hacker? Well, it's finally all coming out, isn't it? I think a couple of shows ago that thought, I think it was just that said that if it was him, it would have been done in some sort of like, you know, some, some, not almost accidental way, but like, you know, he doesn't seem like a hardcore hacker, but it sounds like he said, it says they fraudulently authorize 2000 transactions. So it may be like, it sounds like he did something that slowly leaked out, whether that was actually hacking or not, we don't know, there's still not much information in there, but it does, it does go much more with that story, right? That he was like a happy-go-lucky sort of guy that, that maybe just found a little loop while I was able to just keep on pulling out Bitcoin until he reached what, 104, 130,000 or how many it was. I didn't realize that they're actually, he was jailed, right? So I'm assuming he hasn't seen his girlfriend for a year, so he's actually been sat in jail waiting the sentence. So I don't, these court cases really confuse him. The pair apparently blew each other kisses and smiles from the stand according to the article. Sounds very romantic, doesn't it? So you've got, on one side of the fence, you've got, you know, Ilya who stole what was 77 million at the time, obviously eventually it was worth billions. And then you have, obviously it caused a lot of for all. And then he's been in jail for the last year. And then you've got Sam Bankman freed, who's still like at home playing World of Warcraft in his parents' pad, just like he was a teenager little boy again, spaffing off in his soccer, all sorts that he can get on his hands on the line because he's still got internet and stuff. And then you've, you know, I just, I just think it's quite crazy how the start difference between how these two are being treated, right? And Sam Bankman freed, obviously all these donations that he gave, they eventually, they eventually pay off. But 20 years in prison, that's a, you know, it's quite a big sentence. Obviously, a lot of people were impacted by Bitfinex. So the fact that they gave, you know, the people of an opportunity to buy their, or have their token and hold it, you know, sounded really good at the time. But as you pointed out, they basically were able to buy their token back for nothing, leaving the people pretty much stranded without, without much to go for. And now they're possibly even going to get their Bitcoin back as well. You don't know that's like the story yet, but surely if, if the funds were stolen from Bitfinex and the US government now has the funds, you kind of like, you know, they've got the exact Bitcoin as well, right? Because it went from one wallet to another. So it's literally their, their property. So will that go to Bitfinex? Probably, you know, I think that's going to happen. I can see that the US doing a bit of a grab and maybe taking a bit of a tax for it in some sort of way. But if it does go back to Bitfinex, it's probably not going to go back to the people now because they made good, which ended up turning bad. So it's just another sad situation where people got hacked in the early days and then, you know, and then yeah, a lot of people were horrifically affected by the hack and end up with nothing even though something comes a bit. Oh, yeah, I agree. And it's potentially an incredible win for Bitfinex getting their customers to buy back the debt tokens at less than 100, maybe even 50, maybe even 20%. And then like you said, ending up with the original Bitcoin as well, it's just raining good times for Bitfinex who seem to be totally incompetent if they were hacked in this way. Remember a similar hack if we're going to call it that the mount gocks hack where the user had the money in a Cheetos tin buried under his house, he got those by refreshing the page. He did like a withdrawal. He refreshed the page. He got two Bitcoin instead of one. He got a bright idea and he did it a hundred more times. And suddenly he's a mount gock hacker and he was recently taken down as well. And as you said, keeping him in jail has forced Ilya and Razzlecon, one of them anyway, prisoners dilemma, of course, to give up the location of their gold coins. Apparently, some of the laundered money had gone to gold coins, which they buried in the woods somewhere. And now there's federal agents digging up those gold coins. You have to wonder what Sam Bankman freed could be hiding. And what we'd get out of him if we put him in jail like any other criminal awaiting trial and so forth. Allegedly, Sam's involved in a bald token scam. He may have dumped the tokens from his house. I don't know the details on that, but I've seen the internet speculating on other articles. And like you say, if he's at home and he has access to a VPN that he used to watch the Super Bowl, he could do anything else with that VPN, including leading pump and dump scheme. So it really seems like a danger and a threat to society. But of course, not all of us have parents, their professors at Stanford and plugged in. Victoria, what do you think about the so-called hacker? Seems more like a script kitty and the fact that he's now given up and claimed credit for the attack. Well, at least he gets notoriety. You know, he said in the, it's so horrible. One of the articles said, it said, Razzle Khan's husband. And I was like, the guy pulls out this giant hack. And he's just a husband because his wife was an online rapper. And she was gangus Khan with a bit of pizzazz. And she really had a big personality on the internet. And poor Ilia Dutch doesn't seem to have that. Yeah. Well, I mean, it said at the end of the article, they're now getting a Netflix series out of it. So, you know, it might be in prison, but at least you'll be famous. But, you know, will the money actually get back to a bit for next? Or will the government confiscate it? Because that wasn't clear in the article. Well, I think it's different in the past. We've talked about things like the Silk Road hack, where the Silk Road is an illegal business. Bitfinex is a legal business. If they had stolen property, I think it should be returned to them. It's not like a drug cartel where they auction off the boats or the cars or whatever. This is a legitimate business, however bad their security. So yeah, I think they'll get it back. Well, Bitfinex has done a right then. You know, because I mean, obviously the debt token that they issued, that was a real innovation at the time. And Simon Dixon's tried to repeat the same thing with Celsius without much luck, unfortunately. But of course, you know, it's all part of the fact that these were the things that happened in the early days. It just goes to show what's possible when it's the world worse. But of course, we're still in that transition phase when we're dealing with the existing, the existing, you know, Fiat system. I mean, there is going to come a point where the Fiat system isn't going to be able to afford to do these sorts of court cases anymore. So, you know, I think these are the, these are the important lessons that we really need to kind of like look at in terms of what's happened in the past. I think it's reassuring that if someone does go to that kind of lengths to steal someone else's property, it is possible to track it down. I think that is one of the arguments for keeping Bitcoin suit anonymous. I know there's a big debate in the in the community about keeping Bitcoin totally private. But the thing is, you know, you're always going to have bad actors and there needs to be some way to chase them up and find them accountable. So, you know, I'm glad in some ways that, you know, it's been the perpetrator has been found out. I don't think it's good for anyone to get away with that kind of thing. It's just bad for society if bad people get away with doing bad stuff. But obviously, I think in the future, the way in which these things go down may be slightly different. So, but yeah. But anyway, they get an Netflix series out of it. Good for them. One more thing for me to watch. Excellent news. Josh, a goal of this must be frustrating for you. I know no one's ever hacked Balto or by reloading the webpage or generating transactions. However, Ilia allegedly hacked it. What do you think about this story? Yeah, I mean, yeah, we've been very good with our security for as launched in 2015, never had a hack. We've one of the very, very few exchanges that can say that. It's yeah, I absolutely agree with Dan and Victoria and yourself that this guy was a script kitty. He definitely just found a little, a little floor. And by the way, I want to poke some holes here at the ridiculous nonsense, uneducated fools that the regulators are made up of because the regulators have been pushing everyone to go with the big bit, bit go option. Now, I'm not picking on big go here. They're also good products. But the fact of the matter is it's all automated. So and your exchange, once you sign the key, Bitcoin also needs to sign the key. But how does that do it? Well, that server sends a message to Bitcoin saying, sign the key. So it's just like sign the key if you sign the key. Like, it's not any more secure. Really, it's vaguely more secure, but it's really not. And this whole idea that because it's just all api calls. And so I find it totally agree though. It's funny that it's Rizzo's husband. Is that she made she had to like what? She's not even famous. She's like, how does she get like notoriety out of this? Anyway, it's kind of strange. It's a strange story. You guys mentioned it a little bit, but I think it's good to break it down what happened here. That bit for next, when they got hacked and everyone was pissed off and they had to either shut their doors and do a mock gocks and allow it then the liquidators to come in and liquidate the assets they have left and then shell that out for pennies on the dollar to the creditors of mock gocks. Instead, they said, okay, everyone, we're going to give for every Bitcoin that you lost, we're going to give you, I think it's something like that. We're going to give you one of these bit for next tokens. We're going to run the exchange and make up all these fees and that's your proof that you've lost tokens in this hack and then you can claim all your money back later. Everyone held it. Then a bear market hit and you know what happens at a bear market, Bitcoin tanks and all other coins tank about 10X more, if not more, 100X more than Bitcoin. Bitfix and Pnex tokens tank like crazy and that's what when these guys said they bought them back for pennies on the dollar, that's how it happened. They went, okay, well, we'll buy them back off of you knowing that we're, you know, and I don't know in that state right then, were they looking in the back end, realizing that maybe they're on to a hot trail that they're going to find the hackers? Maybe it that said because they had to still have the goal to buy back that debt because that's still is money going out of their treasury. Even if it is pennies on the dollar, it's still pennies on the dollar you might not be getting back. While we don't know what happened on the inside, what they told us on the outside is that they were caught because they bought the Walmart gift certificates and the PlayStation 5. Something about that linked them back and they were able to follow the trail. Many times we believe that, you know, Tor is penetrated and they secretly use Tor and they don't want to tell us that it's penetrated or something like that or each of our computers is sending out a message and we don't know it. But allegedly according to the information we given, it was the Walmart gift cards and the PlayStation 5s. I don't know if they were caught from traces that they left on the computers. You know what folks, you know, it's better than a PlayStation 5. Ten PlayStation 5s. What? Such a weird thing to those. It's just weird. Juvenile bunch of thieves. That's why I'm not a big guy for throwing people into prison and making that. But in this sort of case, you know, these are people that they stole from thousands and thousands of people from their pension funds, from everything that they've saved up for. So you have two choices as a hacker, as I say, again, hacker. You either, they could have quite easily put it offered to be next and said, look, can we take 5%? We'll have 5% we'll give you back 95%, scoffery. Here's how we did it. Fix the patch. They would have been rich life-changing money. Instead, they saw, I'm going to keep it all. But it's like the thieves that want to carry all of the loot but end up drowning because it's just too heavy, but they're too greedy to let go. And so the plane dives or the boat sinks or whatever. So these guys could have offered being White Hat and converted to White Hat even if that wasn't there. And they would have actually been sitting pretty right now. Instead, they decided to be greedy and go down with the ship. And it's really unfortunate. So for all those hackers, want to be script kitty hackers out there, if you do come across a big bounty, the advice to you is offered to give it all back and ask for a percentage bounty fee. You will be much happier. You won't be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life. And you'll probably be caught if it's with crypto because it's very traceable unless it's with something like XRP, something like. Or maybe a manero or something. XMR. Well, I do think in the thieves defense charge, they were probably getting PlayStation 5 so they could flip them on Craigslist for money the same way that people were using tied laundry detergent at one point to trade for drugs and you would use cigarettes in places to trade for money. It's just a lot of money. Yeah, but come on. How many places? Like it is just a stupid. They would have had to buy hundreds of thousands in PlayStation 5's too. Do it when you get close to flipping the money. Do it when you want something. And in the similar case where the guy had the mount gocks money in his Cheetos tin, apparently he had a lot of fun. I don't know the details. He had lambo's and all the things, but it just kind of shows you how if you have this dirty money, you can't buy a million dollar house. You can't buy a billion dollars worth of cars. You're very limited in what you do. And like you say, Josh, being a white hat hacker, giving it back, even if that wasn't their intention, is probably a much better path for these people to go down. Yeah. Let's move on to the exit question. Forced prediction. And I think it's going to be a hard one. Who will the star of the Netflix show be? Will it be Rosalcon the rapper or Ilya the hacker? Dan Eve. Yeah, I think it will be he's going to be like a sideline event to it. It'll be like the it'll be like the Weedy boyfriend and this kind of a very extravagant extravert girlfriend. And maybe she was in on it too and he's just covering for her. Maybe we'll see some of that in the documentary. Maybe he's even imagined plot twist. She was the hacker and he's just completely head over heels in love and he's taking the fall for it. This will be quite interesting with the way the court case plays out and the Netflix. It's going to be one hell of a series. That's for sure. Victoria, what do you think, Girl Power? The Barbie movie? I'll bet the PlayStation's in Walmart think was probably her idea too. There's definitely some entertainment value in there. That's for sure. And yeah, my bet's on the rapper being the main attraction. Josh Egala, who's the star? Ilya or Rosalcon? I reckon it'll be Lichtenstein, the country. Because I don't know if this guy is like slightly got some royalty heritage somewhere in the Lichtensteinian bloodline, but yeah, it's got to be this girl because it's just horrible. Zero talent, but totally crazy. So it's kind of fun to watch because it's just so mad. Yeah, of course she will be. He'll be like this. They'll portray him as this actual hacker when really he's went, oh, refresh. Wow. Yeah, he'll be a dark and shadowy figure and she'll be someone like Kate McKinnon. So on all out there and crazy. Obviously, if you had the choice, I think the female role is the one you're going to want in this movie if you're out there, Hollywood people. Moving on to issue two, issue two Bitcoin miners need the Bitcoin price over 98K by the happening. As we've discussed many times on this show and will continue to discuss until around March of next year. The Bitcoin happening is coming. That means that the amount of production of Bitcoin being made goes down by 50%. In the past, this has always led to the price rising either before the happening, or after the happening. And as the article says, in order for the miners to keep making money, the price has to rise. It's around $30,000 right now. It would have to at least triple and a little bit more for the miners to stay in the black. Victoria Jones, what do you think? Will the price rise keeping in mind that Adam Back, famous friend of the show, has recently entered into a bet that the price will be $100,000 by the happening. A public bet. Well, I think it's a tricky one really. There are certainly some analysts that I watched that talk about diminishing returns. The next time may well be less than it was previously. I certainly think the previous high, a lot of people expect it to go a lot higher. And I think the things that kind of slowed it down were the COVID crash because of course the price was leveling off much higher. And then the COVID crash of course sent it down much lower than anyone expected. And then of course you had the Chinese miners when we're just starting to get that trajectory when it goes up, the Chinese China decided to ban all their miners again. Great timing. And then Elon must sold off his Bitcoin. So there were certain big events that definitely cut into that trajectory. And so we're reaching an interesting point really. I mean a lot of people expect it to kind of go on this run because that's what they've seen in the past. But you have to recognize that Bitcoin has some powerful enemies and their rich enemies. And everyone wants the institutions to get involved. But of course the institutions have a lot of money. And if they start using things like ETFs to kind of keep the price lower than it should be, then it could cause a lot of trouble. And you also, you know, if you read the article closely, it's also worth bearing in mind that the miners need it to be at that level because a lot of them now have companies that are issuing stock. And so a lot of people are using these priors predictions to kind of value the stocks. It's not necessarily the fact that miners actually need that money for the electricity. They now need that money for their shareholders, which kind of creates another factor in the mix. And of course the whole hash rate is designed to make sure that when you start getting too many miners in the system, there's then the game theory designs it so that some of the miners kind of drop off. It's designed to kind of set up this equilibrium. And so you might have all of these mining companies that are kind of jumping in. They're making an assumption about the 100k price for their shareholders saying, well, it needs to be minimum this. But then if it doesn't get there, there's going to be a whole lot of pain out there because it's not going to, you know, some of the miners that can't support their shareholders. This is going to be something else that is another factor for them to deal with when they're trying to run their operations. And, you know, this will be when, you know, it's like Fiat World meets Bitcoin World and it could be carnage. It'll be very interesting to see how it plays out. Josh Agala, what do you think? Will the price rise? Yeah, sure will. It's interesting though because as Bitcoin's become less and less available to miners, the less control miners have over the price because at a certain time, the volume of the normal market far out weighs the amount of new Bitcoin inflating the market. But I think this round right now is kind of the last time that miners have a major say in that because the volumes will start to reduce saying that if the price does bump up to, you know, above 100k, it equals that playing field again. So it's this constant sort of battle between what one Bitcoin's worth and not. So right now, for instance, just to outline that, we're around about 19 million, 450 Bitcoin, something like that, there's only 21 million of these. So we're very, very close. And so here, we'll see what happens because what happens next to the price really decides what happens to the industry built around this thing. Many people say our price doesn't matter, but it does. It very much does because when the price goes up, Bitcoin businesses do well, and people build infrastructure, people build things that start to work and it ties into the into the bigger system. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it for the next bull run. I think Adam Bax bet. I'm not sure when is it when's the strike date of the bet, you know. I believe he's predicted $100,000 before the havinic. So he's all on this side of the wall. Yeah. See that that that to me is a really tough bet. I don't know if I would make that bet. I would definitely make that bet four months after the havinic. I would make that bet. But yeah, like I said, there's already 19 million, 450,000 of these things. So I think it could very easily, you know, the Bitcoin markets, one of these things, once it starts going up, then people just pile in. People just start piling in just like on the way down when it's going down. People just pile out. So it's not too far of a stretch to go from what is it, 25K now or whatever, up to up to 100. It's not that big of a stretch right? And it's mainly based upon the supply shock that there'll be less Bitcoin on the market. If you're in exchange and you're used to buying 100 Bitcoin a week, maybe you can only find 50 or 75. You can't get as much as you used to and eventually that naturally should lead to a price rise. Dan, Eve, what do you think? Will the price rise by the havinic? I hope so. I think I definitely think it's 100K before the havinic is a bit ambitious, right? Because based on if you are looking at previous trends, the pump really comes after the havinic. You don't hit an all-time high until after the havinic happens. It's just said like four months or so. And actually, wasn't it like mid, it was like quite foreign to 21 before in fact, what was it? It might have been the year of December. Yeah, my December wasn't it? It really hits 67. So yeah, so I think it's very optimistic. I mean, I also, Victoria's been on diminishing returns. That's been stuck in my mind quite a lot because of the fact that, as you were saying a minute ago about there being less Bitcoin on the market, but as a proportion of the market of the whole, it's not actually that much. First harvening, there was 50% of the supply second-arboning, 25% was supply blah blah blah blah. And you get down to when this happened harvening happens, we're going from six percent of the supply per year, sorry, this is so, to down to a three percent of the Bitcoin supply per year because obviously, as the harvening goes on, there's more Bitcoin already in circulation. So the impact of going down becomes smaller. And so it's not so much of a chokehold going, you know, as you would have done from going from 50% in one year down to 25% and sorry, harvening to the next 25% in 12 and half. So the shock of that supply shock, I don't think is as hardcore. I'd like to see it go to 100K before. And I think it would be, you know, obviously, it would be great for everyone in Bitcoin and who likes Bitcoin. Maybe the BlackRock thing will have an effect, BlackRock and these other ETFs. But then we saw in what 2017 when the first, like the futures ETF got approved, didn't like, that's pretty much what caused the downfall. And there's that chart, isn't there the chart of how when the first gold ETF got approved, the price of gold started to drop as well. So, you know, there is a history repeats itself. And if we get these ETFs, is there going to be a price crash because there's a lot more manipulation that can actually happen to kind of bring, you know, as said, the powers that be bringing things back to a bit of their own, what they believe to be equilibrium and being able to apply the pressure from the other side. So it's not just a bunch of new internet money hippies like us that are buying. You can actually short it. There's a lot more financial instruments that can make sure that it does it does a downer. But there's, is it March next year, right? The Harmony March or one of 62 days. 62, 362 days. No, 262. Okay, April, April, yeah. So it's, you know, it's obviously within the year, you look, sorry, prices. I don't think we've really pumped that hard before in 2020, didn't it go down to like three and a half K or something before the harvining within six months of the harvining. So that's quite a big, quite a big drop. But you look at the hash rate, you know, right now and the hash rate for a start is it like, so according to Bit Info Charts, 422Xer hash is, which is pretty much, pretty much bang on like the, you know, near all time high levels. The mining difficulty is again, when every time you look at it, it gives you a gun, it wasn't too long ago in April, then it hit all time high of 40, 40 trillion. And now we're at 52 trillion. So it's gone up by another 25% in the space of six months. So the mining game is growing, but hugely growing. And they're not, they're not stopping now. Whether that, that hash power, moved away from the US, if they start to get pinched, if there's new laws, like the Biden administration wants to put this 30% mining tax on. I don't know if that's gone through or not yet. There may be more stringent laws in states where there's a lot more of an environmental thing going on. So we could see that impact on some of the, some of the mining companies as well. But they've had huge games like hundreds of percent gains this year, more than Bitcoin, it seems. So there's a lot of people backing the mining side. It's just whether they can, whether the storm. Well, I don't want this to be interpreted as investment advice. But my view on this is that this time, the media is with us. More people know about Bitcoin. There's going to be more articles about the happening. And though it's an outside chance, I think that retail could come back into Bitcoin as we've discussed before because of FOMO. People are going to say people made all that money on Bitcoin last time. People lost money. And they're going to be watching CNBC. And they're going to hear about this event. The supply production going down by 50%. They're going to get out their old Econ 101 textbooks from high school. And they're going to say supply down limited number of Bitcoin. I should get me some of those. And that kind of retail pressure could launch this as well as the ETF, which would have to buy Bitcoin to own the underlying asset as well as the dozen other ETFs that want to compete with that ETF, which could continue to provide this buy pressure that we need. So I think we're going up. But moving into the exit question, will Adam back win his bet? Yes or no? And would you take that bet? Victoria Jones. No, I think you will. Josh Tagalli pretty much already said no, but for the record, what do you say? No, four months after I say. Dan Eve, it's looking bad for Adam Bax finances. I think he bet 100 million Satoshi's or something like this on the thing. Maybe I think that's a whole Bitcoin, something like that. 100 Oh, what Jesus. Yeah. Well, I suppose, okay. Well, I really hope he does, but it's not like the million dollars. Who was it that was Bellagy? Did he set all that wager? Is that wager gone now? Did he see he donated the million to charity or whatever the deal of the wager was? But he predicted in an incredibly short window. It was something like in 90 days, just based upon media hype and his opinion. And later he said he did that because he wanted to draw attention to Bitcoin and so forth. But I think there's cheaper ways of doing that. Yeah. Well, I hope it does reach 100 K before the harvining. That would be jolly good for everyone. I agree with the panel. I hope that Adam back wins, but it seems very unlikely as Josh said, it's usually four months, six months, or whenever you personally give up on Bitcoin, that it will start to go crazy up. Or if you, if you have to sell to pay your rent, it's always the next day that it goes up. So everybody, as soon as you're done making your panic sells, that's when it'll go up. Check out worldcryptonetwork.com. We've got three thousand and sixty six videos that you can watch, including new proof of work interviews that I shot while I was at Mallorca Bitcoin conference. We've got an interview with Thomas from Electrum Wallet. It's very good. A second interview with Peter Todd about his first computer and time stamping and much more. And we've got Vlad Costa from Bitcoin Takeover magazine. These are all on worldcryptonetwork.com and I've been updating the podcast. So you'll see these on the podcast as well. And you can listen for free or watch at worldcryptonetwork.com. Moving on to issue three, the SEC asked Coinbase to trade only in Bitcoin before suing the crypto exchange. Coinbase has defended themselves as being the white knight of the crypto industry, saying if they had done this, it would have caused all of these companies that are based upon altcoins or who have launched their own altcoins, such as PayPal recently. It would have caused them to fail. Ironically, I think members of this group for the past few years have asked Coinbase to do the same thing and have preferred Coinbase back when it was a much simpler exchange where you could only buy Bitcoin. Josh Shagalli, what do you think about the SEC asking Coinbase to only trade Bitcoin saying that it was the only one that was not a security? I think it's very, very bad sign when the land of the free that goes around waging wars and killing people for the philosophy of freedom to then force companies to not sell certain mathematical products. It's just crazy. I think it's revolting that when asked, what is a security? Will Bitcoin, will there be a Bitcoin ATM? ETF, what do companies need to do to get a Bitcoin? They're like, if I told you it up to two, you have no go and ask chat GBT. Just tell us what you want. You're fools. You guys have regulated, build the regulations. It's like saying, here's a game of monopoly play and we're going to randomly just find you and stick you on prison because you don't know the rules. Well, what are the rules? No, one of the rules there. You go and ask chat GBT. Just terrible, the guy needs to be fired the whole SEC needs to be fired. Just like the FBI needs to be deconstructed. All of them, they're just a bunch of money wasteers and pathetic. How many people have been absolutely rorted through the whole SEC just dumping news on the market to then destroy people's lives because they all of a sudden call something a security or maybe not or whatever. And then all of a sudden say, it's fine now like with XRP. Now it's good without much sort of explanation. The whole thing is a rot. It's a big toll gate. They just want their piece of the pie. That's what it seems like to me. And it's just horrible. It's horrible to watch especially, especially that their whole stick is to protect the little guy. And that's not happening. All the fines, do they go to the little guy? No, they get stuck in the pockets of the state. No one's seen. No one that suffered any you know, suffrage on these tokens have seen anything positive from the SEC. So I just think it's horrible. I really would love if they just issued and did their job by issuing rules, proper rules that companies can follow it. Instead, you know, I mean, I don't know why I'm mentioning XRP. I don't really like that project at all. But it's like XRP was one of the first companies that were like, we're going to play ball with the regulator. And we're going to get a license. But bomb here. Go ahead. He's millions of dollars. He is millions of dollars into our lawyers pockets so they can go with all the rules. And yes, now we're licensed. Next minute, you broke every rule. You owe us a massive fine of millions of dollars. Hang on a minute, we just tried to play ball. Now you're finding us. And like the whole institution is horrible. I mean, it really is just set proper rules, make it do it quickly and efficiently, and stop mucking with people's lives. The actual savings in their lives revolve around the decisions that you make just off the cuff. And it's and it's horrible. Dan Eave, I think the obvious South Park reference here is the Bill Bellachack defense. I did not understand the rules. Coinbase easily could have used that, right? I'm definitely with Josh on this. It seems like they're doing this almost just to be awkward, right? It seems like a huge power trip to mess with people. And even like Gernes, recent comments about crypto and stuff. It's just the whole thing. It just seems so so sarky and sarcastic in this way of saying sarky. But the fact is they're not protecting people again. I'm interested in green with jostle. They're in the way that they should be. And protecting people should be providing the right guidelines. Because if they're hazy to people like companies like Coinbase that are trying to play along and they're showing mixed judgment, then that's not and really when they should really if they really believe certain things, they should be deterring people from using it. If you're an end user who's thinking, well, the SEC hasn't banned it, you know, look what's going on with Coinbase and stuff. They're just flip-flopping either side. XRP is winning it's battle, therefore it must be okay. And then there's this flip-flopping either side. And I definitely hate XRP. It's like the longest running ICO. But I think it's a great example, again, this kind of flip-flopping from the SEC when you need actual guidelines. You can't turn around after someone's done a bunch of things and say, well, you know, and you've they've asked your permission and they go, you shouldn't have done that. Like it just doesn't work like that. You're not protecting anyone. You're not protecting anyone. And don't point to a to a rule from, I don't know, the 1500s and say, well, we've got to have this rule here. It's crypto. It's like it's it's square peg. You're pointing to a round hole here, mate. Yeah, it's a new asset class. It's new technology. It's I mean Coinbase pointed out that the Lord doesn't even state that what the SEC were asking them to do. So it seems like the SEC are just on this completely odd foot where they just they don't even know the Lord themselves by the sounds of it. And they're just trying to make it up as they as they go along. So what people need is clarity. What companies need is clarity. If a company goes to you, it comes to you and says, is this okay? Isn't it? Isn't it? You know, don't just go in one gray area or, you know, it's two bitcoins, two small now to even look at whole law Bitcoin. We're looking at AI and or stupid comments and flippant comments like that. Do something that's actually useful and it's going to it's going to give people the right guidance. But put your ball. Okay, I can't say that. Put put yourself on the line because they may not have balls. They may have they may have balls and not have balls. It's 2023. But put something on the line. Put I'm not going to go down that path. But any just you know, anything, not doesn't have to be a human body part. But reputation, reputation is the best thing. Put the reputation on the line. And actually just make a make a proper judgment. But don't flip flop around and and the idea that they should suddenly de-list all these. I know obviously it sounds a bit ridiculous. Coinbase, you know, becoming the night that saves everyone from crypto. But there's very damaging effects when when governments make sweeping rules without really thinking about them. And as we've seen with China flip flopping and the impact that had on Bitcoin in the past when China would say something and then the Bitcoin price would go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, up and down and whatever. And we're, you know, that can still happen now, especially a lot with these other companies that are trying to establish their their their sort of their services. So yeah, I think it's just bad. Provide right the good guidance and the right guidance and and make an actual statement. Don't make SMAMI comments that just you know that show you don't understand this this scenario the the technology. Well, I know many people on this network over the years have declared Ethereum security. It had a pre-mine. It had a development team. It had a marketing team. It had all these things. But when the time came for the SEC to say whether or not Ethereum was a security, they said it's too big to regulate. They had waited too long. There was apparently an initial period where they could have said something and done something and they didn't. And then by the time they were ready to say something and do something, it had gotten too big. So it is very sad to see these regulators wait in too late to save anyone too late to help anyone and then to only act negatively towards a burgeoning industry that could bring in millions and millions of dollars in taxes in new jobs in new innovations. As we always talk about with the internet and other technologies, you don't want to stamp down on them and then drive all the brains and all the innovation out of your country. But it does seem like that's exactly what they're doing by coming in too late, being generally uninformed and then attacking everyone in the room. Of course, there's still a chance for Coinbase to employ the Chewbacca defense also from South Park. Chewbacca is a wookie and he's from the planet Kashik but he's hanging out with wookie with Ewoks on Endor. It doesn't make any sense. You must acquit the Chewbacca defense. Victoria Jones, what do you think about Coinbase being the white knight of the crypto industry by protecting all the alt coins? Well, I think you've just said it really. It's too late to really. They're trying to close a door after the horse has bolted. I think this is just going to be the narrative going forwards. It's too late. As capital moves into the crypto space, the fiat world isn't going to have the money, even if they wanted to, anymore. That's the game theory playing out that most of us saw in advance. You kind of sit on the sidelines and go, what are you doing? An apartment of thing else, trying to create rules after the event is just such bad form. There's no precedent legally anywhere where that's meant to be a good idea. The moment you try implementing that, there's all sorts of other things that you're starting to disrupt. It's like saying, we thought there'd be a 30-mile per hour speed limit in this road today, but now we're putting up a 20-mile per hour speed limit sign. Anyone who did 20 miles per hour yesterday, even though it said 30, you're now prosecuted. It's a very definition of it starting to get a dysfunctional society by the time you're starting to do that. So yeah, utter madness and the only people that making fools of all themselves. It's a little bit Kafka-esque, I think. We've gone well into Kafka territory here. So the exit question and it's kind of an easy answer, but which is worse? The alt coins that we're being offered by Coinbase that is a publicly traded company on the stock market, which has moved very publicly to say which alt coins they were accepting. They had a couple of insider trading problems, but generally they tried to offer the good alt coins or Hex, which has recently been delisted from Uniswap and Metamask and went down another $500 million today and is also being sued by the SEC once again, five years too late after much of the damage has been done. Josh Shagalla, which is worse, Hex or Coinbase is so-called white label alt coins. I think the term security for these things is horrible. It's not like, you know, we have a chance here to remove VCs out of funding some of these small cap projects and allow some people just to throw a 10 bucks at something and help it project out. It's a really great way of also supporting free and open source by having a little stake in it. I understand that there are a lot of scams, absolutely, but these rules around securities do nothing to educate the naive investor. All it does is protect them from what? It doesn't protect anything. It protects the legacy systems that these things actually disrupt. That's all. And it protects the industry of vultures around venture capital, who basically also actually take advantage of the OICO thing. But yeah, you know, if Coinbase is right, like there's a lot of startups and things that wouldn't have got a chance. And by the way, if the SEC did go, this is my view, if they did go after Ethereum the early days, maybe we wouldn't have this amazing technology right now. We certainly wouldn't have it in America. And the stuff that the amazing creativity is whatever you want to say about Ethereum, that it's not decentralized, Nipyapyol or the Bitcoin Maxi talking points, Ethereum is a stunning celebration of creativity, to be able to release NFTs and all these the crazy stuff that's happening on there, the total Wild West, this exploration of creativity and coding and maths and cryptography has happened because it has been the Wild West. And sometimes for stuff to happen, you know, and be explored, there needs to be that exploratory space. And if we keep sticking everything into a round hole that was invented in the 30s around an orange grove, then it's not, you know, that's a reference to where the how he test came from. Then we're not, it's just, I just don't understand, I feel really confused by it. I feel saddened by the fact that Bitcoin, really extreme Bitcoin has, look at me, I'm one of the earlier Bitcoin's, you know, and I am not like, what we're doing here is all these people like wishing that people get other projects get destroyed by government regulation. And the meantime is like separate money and state, why, how do you actually get those two to look, I understand if you big connect, they should be taken to prison because it was an outright fraud because they promised something and they didn't deliver and they destroyed people's lives and it's horrible. But there's a lot of projects that really do want just a small grassroots funding and it's a great way to do it. It's a great way to do it. That's just my point of view. Well, thanks. The government often does stuff that they promise stuff and they derrune it and then they destroy people's lives and take more of their money. So it's very, it's what the government does on a daily basis. I'm sorry, you said it was a very easy answer. I just granted for half an hour. Well, Josh, as we've discussed before, when I wanted to make my blockchain collectibles project, we looked at the various chains and certainly we wanted to do it on Bitcoin, but Ethereum was a better option. When you wanted to make the standard, you looked at many chains and many options, came back to Ethereum as being the best option and I don't want to spoil Thursday's news, which we'll talk about again. But when PayPal wanted to make their stablecoin, it turns out they made it today on Ethereum with the ERC 20 tokens. So there must be something interesting and good about this programmable network that Vitalik has created and his people. I think it's infinitely more valuable than sadly what Richard Hart has created. Of course, he always had his cabinet full of crystals and his candelabras and his fine clothing and something when he was talking about Bitcoin on these shows and these channels, but it got much, much worse with Hex as I've seen from the documentaries and other things that are happening now on Twitter. Obviously, we're not involved. We don't know the details of Hex, but Dan Eave, what do you think? What is worse? The Coinbase altcoins or Hex? Hex by a trillion miles, like it's the whole thing. I actually can't wait to see the, as Mr. Jeffy said, the highest of states, showing around the US, but I'm sure we will leak out onto the internet. But I'm really looking forward to it because he's a crazy character. He's clearly pulling some crazy ass scam and has been all along with all the gains. It was all the stuff that you, when you listen to him talk, it's all the stuff that you're told to avoid. Avoid high gains and avoid guaranteed returns and all the things that he says are literally doing the things that you see that, you know, in lethal it's about protecting yourself financially and all these sorts of health things, investment help. But just for Propagol, be it Kone! There's a question in the chat. So just for you, man. Well, both 2023. Well, and also the way that Hex was sold, I remember last year at this time I was traveling around Spain and they had flyers up for meetings where Richard Hart himself would come and teach you about Hex. So it was very similar to one coin in that aspect where they had normal MLM meetings where the guy said in the famous Christopher Rose and Jonseth undercover video, I know it in my knower that this thing is going to go up and that it's going to double by November and they weren't attacking the crypto people much as the brilliant Facebook rolled out rolled out on the East Coast in the smaller colleges. The West Coast technologist had no idea what was going on. If you roll one of these scams out and you don't go after the crypto people, it turns out you can get a lot more money and no one even knows what's going on because certainly none of our friends were buying Hex. None of our friends were buying BitConnect or one coin but a lot of other people were and I don't think it turned out too well for them. Victoria Jones, what would you take the publicly traded coin base or the privately shady Louis Vuitton backed Hex? Well, I've always thought that Hex was very unfortunately named. There is a theme park in England called Orson Towers and they've got a ride here that's specifically called the Hex because I'm not sure if Americans are aware of this but Hex, the old English word of a Hex means a curse. So just from that perspective, you just stay a million miles away. From the little I have seen of Richard Hart, it wouldn't actually surprise me if he'd named it that deliberately. It's just like just how foolish can these people be? I mean, the industry is going to be full of it and that's the nature of the Wild West. I mean, until Bitcoin was invented, it was actually illegal to create any other form of money than than you could in America and it's only because there was no way of stopping Bitcoin that all of these altcoins became available. And so, you know, this is the new revolution, you know, that there's something that as much as they try, the government are really going to struggle with this. And, you know, who knows that we think Bitcoin's strong but who knows what could be a vulnerability in the future? And, you know, we need, we need these other projects and what they offer in the early days because, you know, it's out of that ecosystem that we could find something better. You just don't know because if the world comes to depend on Bitcoin and then something goes wrong, then what do you do? I mean, God forbid that it happens and, you know, there's no sign that it could, but you just don't know. So, you know, we need these other projects and, you know, they may pump and dump or whatever, but it's all a learning process for the people who are watching as much as the people who are involved in them. Well, I definitely agree, Victoria. Hex has been a terrible name the whole time. It's almost like naming your coin doom. And then you're like, what happened to the money you put into doom? Well, it was doomed. It collapsed. And then, of course, the classic example from the Silk Road imitator, the sheep marketplace. And everyone's like, oh, the service at sheep market places fantastic. Right up until the weekend when they exit scammed and they fleeced all the sheep. And, again, the kind of thing that we, as, you know, questioning hacker type people looked at and were like, what kind of idiot would leave their money in sheep marketplace? Well, it turns out a lot of idiots and they, they all got fleeced. So, sad for them. Moving on to issue four, not to dump on coin base, but coin base looks to add Bitcoin lightning for payments. Coinbase famously fought against the UASF, fought against the Segwit update and ignored the lightning network for what seems like years now. And now is finally fully capitulating and adding the lightning network to coin base to allow quick payments and money to be sent from and to their exchange using the incredible lightning network, which only happened because the users road rose up with the UASF, with the internet, with the conferences, with Twitter, all of that coming together, allowing this new network and other things like Bitcoin NFTs, the liquid network, the side chains, other things to be built on top of Bitcoin because we did not go the way that the big blockers wanted Dan Eave. What do you think about coinbase giving up the probably the last battle of the blockchain war and allowing the lightning network onto their platform? But it was, it's better like the never right. Didn't they take absolutely the ages to implement Segwit as well, native Segwit, so like they're behind the, and they even said in this, they picked up a lot of critique because they said when they tweeted it, Brian Armstrong said it was a non-trivial ad. Like now, I've added lightning to when we added it in between a war port in 2020, it was like easy, it took a couple of days and it was so fluid, we never had any problems. We used LNBITs actually back then in 2020, so and it was worked absolutely seamlessly. So to say it was non-trivial seems like he got a few virtual slaps for that. But the fact is, yeah, better late than never, maybe it's going to help people be able to get into Bitcoin. Maybe they've seen that, the idea of high fees and they just want to slowly build up a Bitcoin port failure, but they want to buy it from Coinbase and send it to their wallet, but the fees are too high if they're sort of dollar cost averaging. Now they can do, they can use lightning. So I think it's a great thing overall and it's good that they're finally supporting this service. Sorry, the infrastructure for it, it took obviously a lot longer than people hoped, but they're very much behind the times. Although they are, they added what was it, Pepe Coin pretty quickly, which is a bit stupid. Obviously, that's just activating any Ethereum smart contract, but they add all sorts of other crazy chains, right? But they don't add lightning network, which is part of the biggest chain, like the, you know, the, the, it's part of Bitcoin. So they add Solano and all these other crazy little ventures, but not lightning, which is a bit odd, but at least they're doing it. So Kudos! Well, remember Coinbase was also a backer of the Bitcoin 2X movement where after Segwit, they switched to double the block size because they felt like it. No one really could understand why at that point they wanted to do that. Mad Bitcoins and others fought back online with the no 2X hashtag. And once again, in a shocking reversal, the users won. The large companies did not dictate what would happen to Bitcoin. They wanted to pick up the phone and say, hey, programmer, we need more block space. And it turned out it's not going to work that way. It's going to be much more of a research project, and it's going to involve the community who controlled the full nodes. Victoria Jones, what do you think about Coinbase finally giving in and supporting lightning? Oh, what it's always nice when you get a corporation to give in, don't you, Mani? You know, we can all feel like I'm in Brockovich. Bringing down the corporations. Power to the people is definitely the people's money. These are the stories that I love about Bitcoin. It's very heartening that we finally got that youthfulness again. And in terms of lightning, I mean, it boggles my mind why any exchange isn't doing that. You're meant to be at the forefront of the technology. Although I will admit, I think lightning is a little bit tricky to implement for corporations. Certainly having to implement a lightning node myself, I think it's really well suited for small businesses, but more complicated for corporations because of the volume, because volumes an issue when you're trying to set up a lightning node. But again, you know, that's one of the good things about it because it means it gives the small businesses a chance before before the big businesses have a chance to step in. The only problem is the small businesses don't really have the resources to get it set up before the big business. It's a bit chicken and egg. But again, you know, it does level the playing fields to a certain extent, but you know, certainly for a crypto company, I think they should definitely be focusing on introducing, you know, lightning nodes. So good for them. I'm very pleased to see it. Josh, Shagalla, I know of Altoro had the lightning network back and it was still reckless and then changes were made and you had to take it down. Coinbase could have been right there with you, but instead they waited and they waited and they waited and now I guess it's time. It's very not reckless of them to add this. Yeah, I'm just looking at it on Bitcoin magazine. If you type in Altoro's Bitcoin to Gold Exchange, it implements lightning network. The first exchange in the world to implement the lightning network was us, Altoro.com. We, that came out in March, 4 May 2018. When seriously, there was nothing. We had to figure it out from scratch. There was literally no infrastructure to do it. We didn't even know how it really worked. We were like, hang on, but yeah, who runs the channel and how do you, like, there was so much that could go wrong. It was super reckless. But it was, you know, we were a very niche exchange. Voltoro.com. Volt as in volt and auro as in gold. Still going strong. But it's one of those things that's like, I don't understand. I really don't. The conspiracy side of me says, well, Roger Versen, quite a large investor. He was on the Bitcoin cash side. He's a bit butt hurt by it all. Funny that you bring up the 2X thing because we actually were one of the first to sign on the 2X as well. And we did so because the stalemate of the big blocks versus small blocks just wasn't shifting. It was like just big blocks, small blocks, and everyone was just fighting and conspiracy theories and shit slinging all over people. And it was just, it was a horrible, horrible time. And it was basically a stalemate. Nothing was shifting. There was nothing shifting. So it was like, okay, guys, let's do this. We double the thing if you let us upgrade to seg with the thing that happened then is that Bitcoin cash forked before that could happen because that was slated to happen later in the year. Then Bitcoin cash forked off. So then then I took my name off of the 2X went to no 2X because now we already have the split. Now we have the big blockers have the chance that it's experiment because I don't know either, man. Like we don't know. People believe fully that small blocks are the way to go. Some people believe slightly bigger blocks aren't a big problem. But this was the beautiful thing about Bitcoin and what Satoshi invented that, hey, if the community doesn't agree, then split it off. Everyone gets one of each side anyway. And we'll let's see. And then there was so dogmatic people like, no, I'm going to sell my coins straight away. Cool. You know, do what you want. This is freedom. Let's check it out. Maybe big blocks work. Maybe it's fantastic. I myself don't think it's the best way to go. I don't think that 2Meg would have blown the lid off of anything to be really clear. I think we would have been fine. But because the reason I took my name off of it then after the forked as well is that they had this no replay thing which could have really caused problems. And I remember waking up, I had a dream like, holy shit, the Bitcoin network is going to full on fail because there's no replay thing and just get destroyed. And I started making phone calls all around the industry saying, we've got to know, know, like cut this off now because we've already got the fork. We've got BCH now. And thank God they decided to turn that off and not fork onto the 2X. Because I think that could have had some really bad circumstances. Well, I think the 2X fork later crashed in the simulations that they were running the code that they had anyway. And as you said, Josh, with the BCH split, Geon Wu and Bitmain had pretty much prepared BCH. So it was like a loaded gun. It was ready to go. And then when they did fork off before the deal and kind of breaking the deal, I think everyone said, well, we got segwit now. We're not going to continue that deal because they have forked off. And the goal at that time was trying to keep the community together. And once the community had been split, well, you know, everything was off the table. And many companies like Valtoro unsigned the 2X agreement back to way from it. It was really only Coinbase and kind of the very silver digital currency group that were really in favor of it at the end. And then I think two weeks later, their chain was crashing in the code. So it would have been very bad if we went with the 2X. And while this might not seem like the biggest issue Coinbase adding lightning five years later, it is important, I think, historically to talk about this and to discuss the historical aspects of the blockchain war. Of course, I definitely suggest that book. It's out there. The block size war, I think it's called, it's an excellent history. And it reads like a military history. The guy talks about the back and forth between each side, the public relations battle, and as well as the technology that went into that. And I think it's going to be a very important part of Bitcoin's history that will be always studied. And let's move on to Valtoro, they're like Valtoro's son. They didn't mention mad Bitcoins, but there's still a chance maybe there's a version 2.0 or something. But so close. But we have a bonus issue as well. Let's move on to issue five. SEC, SEC Chair Gary Gensler pivots the agency's attention to AI. As it says in the headline, we can get to crypto later. The SEC Chair called AI the most transformative technology of this generation and stressed the need to prepare for its influence on financial markets. Let's go to Victoria Jones first. What do you think? Is Gensler telling the truth? Has he really pivoted to AI? And is AI a bigger threat than crypto? Well, I think Gary Gensler is just starting to find himself in a situation where it's coming at him from all angles. I mean, you start off with crypto today. It's AI tomorrow. It's going to be something else because the thing is, this is an industry that is exploding that they're completely unprepared for. And it completely rewrites the rules. I mean, the rules are actually embedded in the cryptocurrencies themselves. That's the whole principle of it. You're designing software, which is set of human beings have decided what the rules are going to be. And you've programmed them into software. That's the immovable object that you're working with. It's like irresistible force meets the immovable object. It's like the immovable object is going to win. It's like, get used to it, Gary. This is just beginning. I think it's just testament to the fact that this is where we are now. This is where we are. They're fighting a losing battle. He'll get distracted by that. In the meantime, crypto will continue to explode. Bitcoin will be over 100K by this time next year. And that'll be going, what do we do now? So, yep, sit back, get some popcorn and enjoy the show. It has a little bit of the old man yells at cloud meme feeling to it where Zuckerberg was all about VR. And then he flipped really quickly. And now he's all about AI, Gensler, and others were trying to regulate crypto as if their life depended on it. And now it's like, what about this AI thing? And it just seems like they're a cat distracted by shiny objects. And as someone that believes in government, believes in regulation, it can be helpful at times. It's sad to see the regulators acting this way and just seemingly uninformed, uneducated, just grasping at straws, which is a, you know, maybe he's overworked, maybe he's stressed, maybe he needs more researchers or more people to be reading up on stuff. He's just, he's not getting the, you know, top of the page reports. He's not getting the summaries. Something's going wrong. Some kind of disconnect with his research group. No, what's in the shape? That's right. I mean, it's available to him. And it's free. It's on YouTube. And we've been talking about this for years. Josh Shagall, what do you think about the shift from crypto to AI? I just can't wait until he calls every UFO security in us for a license. I, the guy is just nonsense. He's a nonsense dick. He needs to be, he just needs to go away. What, what's the SEC talking about AI for? What, oh, what do you do? You can use it for some high frequency training. What, what does that to do with anything with what you do? Nothing. Just, just, go and just, just go away, Gensula. You're just an annoying, just a lame, lame person. Anyway, I'm not much more to say about the guy. Honestly, it's just, he needs to use chat GPD and learn what, what, I don't know, how to, well, he can learn. It's not, it's not that great. It says different things to the same questions, you know, it's a, it's a very much a work in progress. I'm afraid, Josh, that he's seen some of these stupid articles where it's like, we gave chat GPD $20,000 and told it to invest. And this is what it said. Because those articles are just such nonsense. If they refreshed it and gave the same question 10 times in a row, chat GPD would probably say 10 different stocks, 10 different mutual funds. It's never the same answer. It's not definitive. It's once again, looking at a bunch of resources, much like the early Google was looking at a bunch of backlinks and trying to get the best answer. It's never quite definitive with its best answer. It's not a polished answer like Wikipedia, you know, filtered by editors. It's a random guess. And if it could think about it for 10 minutes or if it could think about it for 100 minutes, it would probably give you a different answer. So I'm afraid he's looking at those articles and saying, oh, no, people are going to start AI investing and they're going to start blaming the AI because they lose money. And once again, he's out there trying to protect the consumers after it's long gone. If you wanted to invest with chat GPD choosing your numbers or do that chicken poop bingo thing or whatever, people have all kinds of fun ways to invest that are utter nonsense that they've tried in the past and they will in the future too. Gary needs to just pop up in every bar saying, how dare you place a bet and where that fly will land next? That's a, there's some sort of, you know, license you need for that. The guys, he's a megalomy. Imagine, imagine if he hears about sports gambling where people keep betting on their home team, even though we all know that Eagles aren't going to win. Yeah. It's just a disaster. People, people spend their money, they gamble their money in all kinds of crazy ways and no amount of regulation can stop them from doing that. It's nice to have some guidelines. It's nice to have some reasonable options. If you get from the coin, but yeah, but if it like just give us them, if you got them, now he's a megalomy, I call the fool, the guy, I don't like him at all. Dan Eve, what do you think is AI a bigger threat than crypto? Well, I think he's just, I think he's just saying that probably because he's, he's gets to have a little break from from from maniacal crypto regulation, right? And it sounds like, you know, he has got a bit of a background in in AI. He was, you know, it was 1997. He began getting into it when he's when following the Russian grand chess master, chess grandmaster, Casparov's lost to the IBA soup career. He wrote a paper about, which is in 2020, which was like, was that that was must have been before he took over, right? Yeah. He's only been in that. It could have been worse. He could have seen the AI on jeopardy and said, hey, that looks like a problem. So it seems like he's he's kind of almost like he's having a break from from crypto and he's going back to his old sort of February 2021. Yeah. So he actually wrote this AI paper before he went into the SEC in February 2021 or nominated by Biden into the SEC. So he's touched, he actually appointed as chair April. So he's going back to this old thing, right? And he I think it seems like he may have a lot more interest in this. And maybe this is going to bowed well for for crypto currencies, allowing them to kind of innovate a bit more. Obviously with the fear that the SEC will be off their back briefly until until Genslund and the SEC's turn round retrospectively and say, you've been naughty even though they've kind of lacked in their guidance and all the things that we've talked about. But maybe he disappears from the SEC and he moves into like AI altogether. And we get another different chair of the SEC who's a bit more crypto friendly. So I see this as a good thing. His attention is is just gone from Bitcoin right now. So that's a positive positive thing. I think. Can I quickly say if you want to make any money right now, short anything to do with AI because Genslund is coming. True that. And I'm also being told that Genslund learned about AI after watching the 1984 film The Terminator. And he's been worried about it ever since. It just took him this long to finally write the paper. So before we go to predictions, I just want to remind everybody we'll be doing another show this week on Thursday and probably next week on Thursday. So same time, different day. I'm traveling and it's just hard to keep the Friday schedule up. But put that in your calendar's Thursday. But now Dan Eve, you had a whole minute to think about it. Prediction or a story of the week, we're going to Dan. What have you got? I always on the spot. I don't know. I've got nothing. I've got nothing. I've got nothing. Yeah. No, no. No, no. We're skipping Dan. We're going to prediction. My prediction is that Genslund is going to be replaced by AI. Why do you need? Because that's going to make an actual decision. At least if you give it to AI about it, what's the security, what's not and all these funny questions about regulation, the AI will bloody answer it. The SEC just goes, hmm. That would be much better. You get the the clear instructions that Josh has been waiting for as a businessman. And again, another nightmare for poor Gary Gensler being replaced by AI just like the terminator of Victoria Jones prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. Well, I've already shared my story of the week with you guys in private, but I'll share it with the audience now. Not being a hacker at all. I'm now on the speaker list for the hackers congress in Prague in October, which is pretty cool. So there'll be first time I'm speaking there. And yeah, so yeah, pretty chuffed about that. All right, congratulations Victoria. And also everyone to check out the new article in CNBC about Parallel and Epolyse. Very nice detailed article going into the history of the space and the hackers conference. I think we've all attended multiple times here. So very cool that Victoria will be speaking there. Josh, a gola prediction or story of the week. Go ahead. Well, yeah, the standard AI we're really close to launching on guard. It's been a wrong trail and trek. The smartphones you'll be soon be able to lock up very soon. Rapped Bitcoin. Theorem link up and Pax Gold into a smart vault and borrow against it. We're partnering with link chain link where doing a whole bunch of stuff happening. It's really, really exciting. Get over to the standard IO. Join up on the discord. Join up on the telegram if that's your thing. And yeah, come and join the fun at we're going to launch very, very soon. It's been really a labor of love. We've got to get away from these block fire and these central centralized lending platforms. Hold not your keys, not your crypto. Yeah, it's on Ethereum. It's not like the most decentralized thing in the world, but it's more decentralized than trusting block fire or Celsius or some of these centralized lending platforms. You get to lock it up, you hold your keys, you borrow money from yourself. And it's really, really exciting that the collateral management tools that we've got coming sensational. There's so much exciting stuff happening. And we're already doing some R&D to port it over to Bitcoin when there's a sidechain available that can handle the computation that we're trying to do here. But it's it's super cool and I'm just really, really excited. It's going to be launching on Camelon deck, Camelot decks on on Arbitram, which is the layer two, which they didn't need a war for to launch a layer two on Ethereum. They just did it and thought it was cool. Check it out. It's going to be really fun. Very cool, Josh. Excited for that to launch. It's going to be very good. And just again, thanks to everybody for joining us on the special Monday night show Apologies about Friday. I had Wi-Fi in the hotel, but as you know, not all Wi-Fi is created equal. And they just don't publish the up and down speeds in the hotel guides. Your flip and through and you're like, this one's cheap, that one's cheap. And then you end up in the cheap one that has Wi-Fi, but it was like three up and two down. It was just terrible. And it was, I don't know, my I feel it was works from our side. I had to do the introduction like three times. Victoria and Josh joined me for the first issue. And then we had to recreate it here. So it's always annoying when we're not able to go at the right time. But thanks guys for joining us for this makeup show. And be sure to give us a thumbs up down below. Add a comment. Hi to everybody in the chat. And subscribe if you haven't already. Do we have the bull? Do you have a bull request? Do we have the bull? The bull. I think the ball is upstairs or lost or something. So we can't do a prediction. If you want to go around, we'll say Dan, do you think it'll be higher or lower this time next week? Dan's out. Higher, Josh. Higher, lower. Yeah, I reckon higher. Victoria, higher or lower? Yeah, I think we're getting ready for a pop. All right. And Josh has sent us a portable magic eight ball web page. We're going to go ahead and share this. So higher. Let's see, will the Bitcoin price be higher? Because it's good to ask you yes, no question. Here it is. Concentrate and ask again. After all the work we did to pull up the web page at the last minute and everything. And the audience even requested it. They wanted to know. Concentrate and ask again. That's the thing about oracles. They don't always give you the answer that you want. And oftentimes, they give you both answers. So as the Cheshire cat said once, some people like to go this way, some people like to go that way. I like to go both ways. Thanks to everybody for joining us. And until next time, bye.