The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest satosies, the best bitcoins, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. The Reaching Spokes. Jake Gallant from Emblem Vault. Yo. Josh Shigalla from thestandard.io. Greetings and salutations. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one. US tightens the crackdown on crypto with lawsuits against Coinbase and Binance. But first, it was just an attack on Binance. And then one said, of course, Binance, the stateless cryptocurrency company, of course you're after then, but then they expanded. And went after Coinbase as well. Coinbase would try so hard to play ball with regulators. As Robin Hood said, they tried to talk to the SEC and come in and register, but the SEC wouldn't talk to them and wouldn't make any rules. As Binance said, they've had troubles with their chat logs and their employees. As CZ says, everything you say could end up in court or on the internet one day. And meanwhile, the price of Bitcoin just doesn't care. Dan Eve, what's going on this incredible week with Coinbase and Binance, both attacked by the SEC. That's some big moves, right? I think Coinbase really, really poked the back when they gave, we're trying to put them in court and said, give us two weeks to decide whether Ethereum encodes a security. And now they've just come out and gone white. We'll just see you. The interesting thing about this is that Ken is one of the crypto's that he said is a security. He was like, which is Algo, he was shilling a conference in 2019, shortly before we joined the SEC. But it's definitely, it's winter, it's crypto, kind of crypto, or they're all coming out of the crypto winter on the run up to the bull run. But it's definitely regulation season, like we're in, there's no Bitcoin pump season, there's no alt season, we're in regulation season right now. A lot of people lost a lot of money, FTX went down, you got three hour capital and the fallout from that. And yeah, it seems like the regulators are absolutely on a mission right now. There's three exchanges right. It's Coinbase, Bittrex and Binance. And also, is it Bixie as well? Bixie also, I'm going to a lawsuit. And there's, you know, I'd be just to see if others like, I don't know, I know other big kind of exchanges like Bitfinex, are they going to come under fire as well, especially with the links to Teva? There's always speculation about Teva being manipulated so badly and not backed, etc. So is the SEC going to go after them? Or are they completely out of their SEC's hands? The one thing that this does really make you think is that you'd be mad right now to start any form of crypto business based in the US because they're going to be coming for you, even if you try to get regulated, even if you like Coinbase, who are like, regularly harder, daddy, and pushing them to get decisions made like Robin Hood have even saying. And then 19 month long application that ended up being rejected. They're still going to come after you. So it's not worth like, you know, it's not worth having your business in the US and being under such a such scrutiny from the SEC and being within their reach when you could just be operating abroad and not have that as a headache. So I don't, I think, I think that it's, there's obviously a lot coming out now with Binance that I used to believe that CZ was like a jet like, I think it's the FDX happening all over again, like, Sam, he seems like a nice guy. He's, you know, altruistic and all that stuff. And then it turns out he's like one CD, my father and, you know, and really did some shady ass stuff that even admitted to, you know, mixing customer funds and all that. So is CZ one of those guys as well? Is he, was he really like transparent or was he really playing the game and making it look like that they were, you know, operating very efficiently and nicely under the herd and very genuine and transparent and the safely funded all that was that just a myth. And, and, and his Binance can, and it's going to come crumbling down. Those messages right that like that that SEC are using as a poster like, hey bro, we're an under and, I've regulated securities like exchange from the DMs that's, that's going to be hitting pretty hard. So it would be interesting to see if there's any more, if they've got access to all the, the chat messages, if there's any more of that floating around, but it's not looking good for buy dance or coin base or anyone for that man who's in crypto the years. Yeah, CZ's like a bond villain and Dan's like Homer Simpson. He's like, I really need this job. Maybe he's not so bad. Maybe he's not doing this. Maybe he's not doing that. Oh no, oh no, just, just a nuclear reactor. And yes, I'm being told that it's all exchanges named bit. They're going after all exchanges name bit, bit or or coin, bit or coin. And like Dan said, we've seen this before right after the price of Bitcoin goes down and almost goes back up. That's when the regulators come in and try to kill Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. It's always at the weakest point and everyone freaks out and sells all their coins and it's always a complete disaster. And then it comes back and I'm like, what was that? What were we worried about? Except this time it only dipped slightly and then came right back up. So I'm not sure what's up with that. And also I'm reminded of this idea of coin base and Robinhood inviting the regulators in trying to work with them. The original example of that was Charlie Shrem with bit instant. Charlie Shrem invited the feds in tried to work with them. They of course kind of use this against them found out that one of his employees and perhaps Shrem himself were sending money to the dark web and the silk road selling Bitcoin where it shouldn't be sold. But still this idea of an original company trying to sell Bitcoin to people, pretty simple idea being shut down and eventually prison and forth because they tried to work with the regulators. So it's an unfortunate message. They're sending Jay. Jay, what do you think about the biggest week in crypto, Binance and coin base? Well, I think we're finally going to get to some finality for the regulatory perspective, which has been on everybody's mind. Sense probably the inception of Bitcoin that everyone's been asking. This is that stage of that old cliche, right? Where it's like first they laugh at you, then they want to be at you and then they fight you. Because of the final stage, it's then we fight you. Ultimately, I believe, and this is just my speculation, is that it's going to end up being quite favorable outcome for the American crypto exchanges. And the reason why is because of one thing, money, baby, lobbying, the lobbyists never lose. They never lose in America. And crypto lobbying from what I hear and from my friends who work in various political circles and lobbying circles are really ramping up. So you combine the lobbying with the lawyers of coin base and Binance. And I think Betrex kind of just left and said, screw this them out. I think it's going to be a fight that's probably going to extend for some years. Maybe we chop or maybe we just go bullish, which is what you'd mentioned Bitcoin did not sell off like it traditionally does whenever there's negative regulatory news. So I'm finally excited to see it going. And ultimately what might even happen is Gary Gensler, you know, might even be removed from SEC, some of the senators and congressmen are coming after him of saying, you know, could be a confliction of interest from how he used to teach down at, I think it was MIT courses with blockchain. And now I don't know if it's just the Binance lawyers who are putting a spin on it saying that he asked them to be an advisor at some point. Now he's pointing around and saying that they approached him. So there's a lot of intermingling. Then you add on his relationship with SBF and now hold the buckle. I think that this gets tied up in court and the judges will have a favorable outcome which will probably just lead to some fines. And then we could finally get our ETF and everything else that we need to finally get this product out and institutionalized. Well, I love your optimism. And I hope that Coinbase's lawyers can fix everything. Although I feel it's almost at the point where I need to go out there on the street and hold time that says legalize Coinbase, legalize Coinbase. It's not too late. Josh Tagala, we said this over and over again. We said that ETH was a security. We've said this one was a security and that one is a security. We got nothing for it. They all went up in price. Now years later, the Fed has finally come around to tell everyone that everything's a security. Even then it's only 10 out of 100 or something. What do you think about the latest charges against Coinbase and Binance? Aha, you're muted. Ah, the old man. Look, if incompetence was a sport, then Gary Gensler would definitely already be in the Olympics. He'd probably be breaking records at this stage. But then he'd be suing the Olympics, calling the medals securities, and then forgetting where the medals are that he won. And it's just a whole, I mean, the whole outfit is a ridiculous fast at this stage. And it's unfortunate because we can start to see that the fact that these, even when they do sue, like Ripple did, Ripple in the early days tried to play ball. I'm not a big Ripple fan, but just looking back at the story, Ripple tried to play ball with the regulators. They got all the licenses. They got everything. Next minute, they wake up and they've got them, they're sued. So it's, it's like, it happens every time where the good actors that are trying to play ball, try to do good things, get sued and get there, get everything just rub from them. And then, and then they eventually have to just go overseas. They have to go offshore if they want to continue making doing business. And it's really the Americans that suffer because there's not clear, good regulation. And generally speaking, what's happened in the past is that there's regulators are used by establishments. And I mean, this is the entire iron, iron, and a thesis behind Atlas Shrugged is that, well, you know, these big players will use the state to basically monopolize and, and, and have this, this regulatory capture game in place. And this is really the banks see how much money there is to be made in, in crypto and Bitcoin. And hey, well, let's just kick out all the new, newbies, all these players that have worked really hard to enable basically the banks to take over at this stage. So, you know, and, and, and as for the price, I mean, we've had such calamities over the last few years with, with, you know, Terrell Luna and with FTX and three-hours capital and yada yada yada, the list goes on. That by the hands the holding that are holding now, tighter, you know, harder than diamonds. And, and so there's really nothing left to let go. There's no more fear in these people. They're just like, look, we've held through all of this. So, yeah, and that's what I feel is, is happening now. So I'm pretty confident that a, that a, that a, that wearing crypto spring. I agree, Josh. I think the closest we have to a hero in this is a Brian Armstrong. And even then by hero, we're seeing that Coinbase wanted to work with the regulators so that they could become a monopoly so that they could then build up walls of regulation to keep out their competitors. Right? That's the closest we have to like hero in that he's out there following the laws. On the other side, we have CZ and Binance almost and allegedly and practically a pirate. He gets kicked out of this country for this. He gets kicked out of that country. He refuses to pay this country. He just keeps going. It almost seems like there's no way to join the good side and, and do the straight and narrow, especially when an era where the Oakland A's owner is being rewarded for running the team into the ground. And then we'll get free money from the government of Las Vegas to move the team. Dan, a second round. Is there any way for anyone to do the right thing in cryptocurrency? If you wanted to open up in exchange like Brian Armstrong or CZ, what was the right thing to do? Was there any right thing to do? Not be based in the US and service US customers just to not have that headache, right? Because it's going to, the law arm of the law is going to come out to you eventually and we've seen, you know, the people of the US has got a great sort of extraditioned history, right? Being able to grab people that have been overseas and, like, hidden away, right? So it's, it's almost just, like, I don't know, but I'd prefer not to have the headache at night, especially as nothing's really been ruled on yet. All these court cases have been ongoing for years and even the XRP one and you're still hearing that there's back and forth on it. So it's a very gray area and you're taking a huge risk whether your business survives or whether you, you know, you end up doing time for whatever reason. So if you're, you know, if you don't get fake, you know, it's always challenging, right? Exactly. So he was sort of made an example of. So if you're Bitcoin only, I mean, I'm not sure if any kind of Bitcoin, I, if you're if the SEC would go after you because they want thing they have kind of said publicly is that I'm sure Gens, they said that Bitcoin isn't a security, therefore, you know, you can't really, or they've said it in kind of a roundabout way, right? So it's really unlikely they're going to go after Bitcoin, specifically. At the time they've said Bitcoin and I think Ethereum are not securities. I'm not sure why, but they've decided. But didn't, but it didn't get us recently when he was like being a question, they asked him, is Ethereum a security and he kept going, well, like he was like sideskilling around and he wouldn't kind of answer. So even that doesn't seem in the safe zone right now. But ultimately going back to the, the biggest, the biggest point is that the, it's according to Bit InfoChance, the ex-hash rate at the moment is 423 ex-hash to second, which is literally the highest it's ever been. I mean, it looks like it's, it's that, that's, that's pretty much a record, right? So that's the hash power isn't stopping right now. The hardware securing the network isn't, isn't stopping. One thing I did see that was funny. And I posted this in the, sorry, very, very quick digression in, I posted it in, in our little telegram the other day. There was a news article on Coinbase that said, that said Vitalik's warning. Ethereum is known to be, this was, I don't know what news source it was, Ethereum, but it was on Coinbase. Ethereum is known to be the most secure layer one blockchain. That's not right. Is it? Bitcoin is the most secure layer one blockchain. Am I missing something? I mean, you can say anything you want. It's just kind of marketing speak. Yeah. Wow. I think that's a bit silly. Anyway, Bitcoin marches on. And so, yeah, we're within a year now of the harvining. So hold on to your hats. I do think the Ethereum situation is slightly confusing and I can see where he's confused. Originally, it had a pre-mine and a company kind of like a security. Then in the proof of work phase, they kind of spread the token out to everyone in the proof of work. Then they switched to proof of stake. And now it's proof of stake and it's going to get centralized again. So what is it? Really? It's a very confusing thing. But Bitcoin, people just want to buy it. They have the exchanges they want to go to. They want to get some alt coins. Maybe it's like gambling. Maybe it's like stocks, whatever. Jake, what do you think? CZs Casino had more slots than Brian's. Now they both shut them down. There's no way to win if you're running exchange. Should we just wait till the new Casinos are built by banks? Then maybe we'll have the right to invest in some fun alt coin games. I don't think CZs going down without a fight. This guy is a whale. He is somebody who I've never seen this before. He says the headquarters is wherever I am. This guy scaled finance to become a unicorn and I think the fastest in history, what, six months, seven months, completely decentralized entity that he's working right there. He's been playing regulatory arbitrage for what, five years now, six years now at this point. I think it just ends up with a massive fine. I think they probably have a large fund. I believe $13 billion in Bitcoin is sitting in just one wallet alone. Who knows how much CZ has stashed away behind the scenes, right? How much he's put through CoinJoin. Is there some foul play per se or was he co-mingling? Probably, honestly, I think they all were at some point. I think he'll get a similar treatment to what Arthur got. Arthur Hayes, although Arthur Hayes is American. He got pretty much nothing. He got six months house arrest when he was facing like 10 years in prison. So I don't know. He's got good lawyers. I think CZs probably got the same thing. Maybe they shut down by an anti-US. That seems like what's going to be happening. Coinbase will hold it down and maybe just by an inch just stays out of America. I find it hard that somebody at that large is going to get taken down from a US regulatory body at this point where most US regulations have lost all their credibility. Nobody really trusts them. We saw the SEC charge finance. He sees charge finance. Will the DOJ, I think, is probably the biggest thing. If that happens, maybe there's some issues. But at this point in time, I think it just comes down to finds. He's too intermingled with the ecosystem for somebody that large to go down. That would be like them trying to shut down Facebook. These guys are smart. They know exactly what they're doing when there was a threat of anti-company. Competitive laws with Facebook. What did they do? They just tightened everything up and made everything more integrated so that it's impossible to pull it all apart. I think it's a similar situation here. I just don't see CZs going down. Now, I'm not saying they've been successful, but they are trying to shut down TikTok. What do you think about that, Jake? They are going straight up against TikTok. Oh, boy. You can't get in between Zoomers and their 10-second dances. It's just it's not allowed. That might even be more of a crime than what CZs done. They're going to get you. They're going to get you. So Josh, Gala, what do you think? Go fast, break things, build a wall of cash by the lawyers' win. Another horrible example for the children, like the owners of the Oakland athletics. Yeah. The thing with Chang things out, CZs, at this stage, he really is kind of an over-the-erred regulatory wizard. We've run Voltoros since 2015, and it's hard, man. It's hard. It's hard being a Bitcoin business. You can just run it from your laptop in a cafe, Josh, because it seems... These hacker guys make it look easy, I don't know. Yeah. No, no. He's a true wizard. I mean, if he'd lost any Bitcoin, he'd probably find it behind your ear. That's how much of a wizard he is. It's phenomenal. I really take my hat off to the guy at how much he's been able to basically walk that type road and still build trust in the space and capital. What's very, very phenomenal to me is how the actual operation and security works that there hasn't been a major hack. I mean, there's been a few here and there, but there hasn't been like a major one yet. And that sort of decentralized centralized entity is phenomenal. It's really phenomenal because Voltoros never had a hack, but we're quite a centralized unit. We know what we're doing, but nobody even knows where the ex-finance is based. It's unbelievable. And thousands of employees, I don't know about thousands, but a lot. It's an incredible operation. And they had a major amount of withdraws lately and seemed to have settled it just fine. Yeah. Would fear that they wouldn't have the money or something like that, but they got right through it. Stress tested, yeah. All right. Exit question, predict the future. What will happen, Dan Eve will Brian and CZ end up in jail or as Jake says, will they just get a fine at a wrap on the wrist? Now I'm with Jake and I think that I don't think there'll be jail time. I think there's going to be some fines, maybe some big fines that they might even try like one of the kind of, you know, that again, making an example of the crypto industry and it, but you know, crypto is the biggest fight in history because then it would, it would look, make the banking, the current banking system look better and they could say the records now held by a crypto company for the various activities instead of the banks. And they much try something like that, especially knowing how cash rich, finances. But yeah, jail time is quite a serious thing, right? They've got a, he's got an army of lawyers, I don't imagine in front of him. And as we're seeing with, he was it recently, he was saying, well, even with FDM, FDX, right? He's saying, well, we had, they were, Sam Montgomery and Freebe was saying, well, the lawyers were the ones making, not making the decisions, but they told us it was okay to do X and they told us it was okay to do Y. So obviously, I think there's a big difference to still between FDX and Coinbase and finance. But I think that there's a lot, there's a lot of legal, legal work that would have been done to ensure like, it sees a clever guy, he's, he's, as, you know, Josh calls him the wizard. And so he's probably got a lot of risk, not risk, he's got a lot of, what's the word? Not pushback, but he would have handed off the risk, handed off the risk to other entities to have made those decisions for him that he can fall back on. And maybe in one or two, instead of going to just one legal firm, he's got one, he's got opinions from two or three. So he can say, hey, look, the consensus was I was totally correct in the way I operate my business. These guys and these guys said it was totally fine. So I'm sure that they're clever people with a huge amount of money behind, but also the impact on, on, on, on, you know, the people they meant to protect right when the SEC is doing this is like, we're protecting investors, but then loads of people got angry because even though the price rebounded, the price slumped in a bunch of stuff. And they're like, hey, that's not predicting else. You just basically made my shit coin to like to appreciate and value just by serving up this lawsuit. So sometimes these things are kind of what they call self fulfilling prophecies, right? You know, like it is by the very nature of them pushing a lawsuit, they're saying, how look, the price dumped massively, therefore we protected you from even further harm from these crazy shit coinery, pitocon people. You're a lawsuit killed by shit coin. You bastards. Jake, what do you think? Do you agree with yourself? It'll just be fine. It's no big deal. Yeah, I think like I said, I just think it's good. It's going to be good news for the, for the crypto space. There is a large macro game theory playing here. Whether the US has something up their ass or not, and they're going to figure it out. I think it does feel like this wave of kind of like entrepreneurial leadership is kind of taking over from a lot of entrepreneurs trying to get into politics to some of the hopeful like SEPTA, generians and like old politicians, career politicians that are finally hopefully going to age out here pretty soon. It just seems like it's all just kind of too strong here. And now you see other jurisdictions. I guess you say other countries like Hong Kong is opening up shop China, like certain areas of China is opening up shop. You're seeing at different parts of Europe saying they want to be a hub. It's, I think once you slap some sense into maybe a few of these career politicians who are really just kind of holding the entire thing up. Flood gates are going to be open. And hopefully you can just bring another fresh wave of innovation here and not encourage all of the brilliant minds to move off shore, which I see a lot of those in the crypto space say will happen if there is like a massive hammer that comes down. It's me just seems highly improbable. Josh, Shagala, how does it turn out just some fines and no big deal? Maybe they could even pay the fine in Bitcoin? Well, I mean, the reason why I mean, everyone knows the reason why for the traffic fines don't really bother people that owns supercars, right? Because it's just like, well, it doesn't even mean anything. The real absolutely annoying thing about these fines, that none of them, none of that money goes to actually helping victims of, you know, let's say the FTX debacle, which some could arguably say the SEC had a giant hand to play in that, you know, in that in that debacle, or even, Bernie made off victims. Like, no fines that the SEC actually take actually goes to victims of crimes. It's just a toll gate. It's a toll gate to operate. And what an astute businessman does is calculate that into the business plan or her business plan and then just keep going. And so that's what I find unfortunate about all of this fast that it's there to protect the users because it's the actual users that I've suffered by the hands of bad actors don't see any of any of this money. There needs to be an SEC safe move fund. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, but I'd rather just, you know, Binance keep doing that rather than these clowns that, you know, I've probably never even used Bitcoin or crypto or anything like that. They're just ineptitude ineptitude in Kanye. Binance and CZ did famously say once that all the coins would be safe. So you don't have to worry. Check out worldcryptonetwork.com where we've got videos from 2020, 2019, 2017, 2016, and 2014 all from this day, including the 2014 BitGive bowling tournament. Look at this. We had Kraken competing with Zapo competing with Coinbase. BTC Jam was there, BitPay, and BitGive. All the original Bitcoin companies. There's Jason King from running across America. And that was a nine years ago today. I've still got one of those BitGive t-shirts. Classic, classic Bitcoin charity BitGive. Shout out to Connie Gallipi and good old BitGive. Moving on to issue two, Bitcoin is a cult. Offers no refuge and doesn't help even the bad guys said black swan author Nassim Talib. He says that cryptocurrency is a contagious disease, an obsolete product of low interest rates. And while he was once a critic for Bitcoin and his primary reason was money laundering, now he says Bitcoin's not even any good for money laundering. It's too traceable. Jake Gallons, what do you think about Nicholas Nassim Talib, the black swan author continuing to hate on Bitcoin and cryptocurrency? It's really unfortunate because I was actually a big fan of the handful of his books that I've read, including the black swan, early brilliant mind. You'd think you'd come around, especially for someone who talked discusses hard money. Quite often, he's one of those boomers, man. I'm just going to stay at straight. He likes the attention. Maybe he's just mad because he bought the top ones and got dumped on by everybody else. I just honestly, I don't joke society. I don't understand like what his issue is. It seems like it's kind of this same kind of group of individuals who just consistently will not look past their own ego and look under the hood to see. There are a ton of scams. That is for sure. But the fact that he just comes out after Bitcoin consistently too, right, of being the hardest money, being the one that actually has no scams. Really, you don't see many individuals getting their wall attacked or getting their Bitcoin NFT stolen out of their wallet. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen there because Bitcoin is not touring complete. There is probably a majority of the market that is a little bit scammy. But if you're somebody who believes in free markets and capitalism, if people want to go be DGENs, dude, and go trade on the internet casino of various types, then like so be it. Why consistently put yourself out there in the news and say that you know you're a patriot of free speech and free choice, but then consistently berate people when they go actually do that. Josh Shagalla isn't it ironic that the author of Black Swan can't see a black swan like Bitcoin coming? Yeah, it's actually quite phenomenal and sad. But it's typical in, I've run the oldest, longest running Bitcoin physical gold exchange. And I know these gold bugs and it's very, very unfortunate that a lot of the gold bugs refuse to see the value in Bitcoin. And it's just so strange to me. I just don't understand it. But I would say that some Bitcoiners also have the same problem with with old coins where they don't see the value of some other old coins, which I there are some other values there. It's technology and technology evolves. So Bitcoin is sadly some of the maxis, the hard maxis are the same as some of the gold bugs. They're missing out on really interesting technology and even gains because they just refuse to even look at it and just go like, I don't understand, I don't want to understand, I'm just going to call it a sham or a scam. And that's what gold bugs like he does and what some Bitcoin maxis do for some other projects. Yeah, there are a lot of scams for sure. Golds have 3,000, 5,000 years of scams. Like, scams go where there's real value. That's an unfortunate truth. But yeah, it's it's it's look. Gold silver is a rare, a wonderful, wonderful access to diversify into Bitcoin and some crypto projects are also very, very interesting and fascinating projects. These are rare numbers and rare metals and they should be working together against each other. We should we're in this fight against the fiat fraction reserve nonsense clown world that we live in that we inherited. Dan Eve Bitcoin is a cult. What do you think about that? Yeah, it kind of is right. Like, we do with the definition of a cult. Like the second one is a personal thing that's popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society. Like so it's like, you know, the fact that pulp, pulp fiction has a cult following like a so in that sense, then, you know, fair enough, a lot of people like like Bitcoin, there's also the kind of the connotations of the religious side, like the blind devotion to this, so this thing and the the blinkered effect of thinking that, you know, there's nothing bad about Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the only thing that's good about the bar. But obviously, you know, you get you get that without everyone like you get you get people that you get, you know, there's there's there's there pretty much any subject you have, you can have like a certain sect of it that becomes like a cult like following and that's what we're seeing with the kind of maximalist. We're very vocal, like extremely vocal about anything else other than crypto Bitcoin is as Josh said, like relating everything as a scam, which I think, you know, I can understand why they're saying, we don't like the idea that you're saying that we're all in the same boat because Bitcoin is in a different league. But Bitcoin isn't a different league, but there's still value in other things. It's just to say not everything's a purpose for scam. There's obviously there's a lot of projects that are just lunacy and they're kind of scamming by incompetence, like, you know, kind of like the fact that they they they're pushing something that is so dumb that it might as well be a scam, but even though they they genuinely believe it's a good thing, right? And so they're kind of accidental scams almost. But lots of there's lots of projects out there that aren't intentionally trying to scam people. But going back to Tari, Dini also he did a book called Skin in the Game, right? So he in that he argues about decision makers, bearing the consequences of the rations and having skin in the games and print, you know, for increasing the ethical, you know, thing that they're involved in. And now that's surely that that's the same for Bitcoin, right? That's, you know, Bitcoin is they have skin in the game. It's a mutable ledger. So that so it they're the transparency that comes with using this system for for for money is actually a good thing. There's there's almost certain certain parts of what his his previous books have mentioned that they actually should be rooting for Bitcoin. And obviously the the blacks one thing, right? The the financial crisis was a was a black was a was a black kind of was was a blacks one event. It was a massive financial crisis, right? But and Bitcoin was born out of that. So he should see you'd you'd think that he would see that side of why Bitcoin was needed to take away the power of a few specific players and hand it out to the whole community to manage. But you know, he's as as and take also said that he's an old-schooler, right? He's one of these kind of, you know, a bit dubious about technology. And it's turning these people around is actually quite difficult. And we've seen that with, you know, like Krugman, for example, like he absolutely hates Bitcoin as well. I don't think that you'll ever swing these people. Then there's the funny ones like P. H. Yeah, for you, I actually really like it. He's just a he's just like a you know, he's a gold bug right and he's it but he's he's also, I don't know, he must he must own Bitcoin because he does tend to talk about it an awful lot. It's like that little secret like that little secret on the side. But ultimately it's a bit of a it is a bit of a cult, right? Because and the reason why is because people not believing it so much, but they have this realization that the thing that they've been working with their whole life that literally gives them access to everything. Like the thing that it's like almost like, you know, money is the key to anything in society, right? You have enough of it. You can you can open so many doors. And so when you get enough into deep enough into Bitcoin, you realize that that key that you've had is constantly the locks are being changed, like the the the the the keys just malleable. It's it's just fucked from the government making all sorts of ridiculous and the central banks making all sorts of ridiculous decisions. So with Bitcoin, you have a more solid key because you know that key can't be manipulated, you know, and you know that that there can't be more than 21 million unless there's a huge, obviously, you know, huge consensus in which case, you know, there may be a good enough reason for it eventually if it if it does happen in in some crazy auto alternate universe. But ultimately, yeah, these guys are say ultimately I say ultimately too much. But these guys are just too old school. You're never going to win them over. It's like, you know, they're going to say it's old man yelling at the sky. And what we really want is is just, you know, the you ignore those people because they're just the extremists that will never be swayed. And and focus on the people that are actually open to listening to to what Bitcoin is and what problems it solves, rather than focusing on these people. I think we should go back to one of the oldest forms of pristine collateral art. You think he's you think he's at aggressive towards the art market. Does he think it's a scam? It operates very similar to crypto and NFTs work. Maybe he just needs that that kind of physical piece in front of them to kind of calm his spirits down. I'm pretty sure Tilee would also think that NFTs are a scam and would pretty much label the entire NFT thing as a one big thing. Josh, what do you think about that? Yeah, the art market is a scam. The art market is basically a money laundress dream. It always has been and it's been openly used as that for many, many years. You find some artists that's that's very unpopular. No one knows of you buy a bunch of the stuff and then you pump it up, you get it really expensive and then you say, well, I made all my money because I've bought this guy's art. No one can tell you that something is ugly, like a kind of soup. That's literally just a kind of soup. It's now worth millions and millions. Yeah, I just this guy doesn't get it. Whatever, move on. Don't worry about him. Well, there's only one cult around here and that's the cult of the magical Bitcoin predictor ball. Dan Eve will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week. Oh, I think there's going to be more regulatory woo-woo coming. So yeah, I'm going to go lower. I think higher, man, I'm bullish. I'm deep down the ordinal space. There's a lot of activity going there. People need Bitcoin for that to operate. So we're not moving or the space is not budging on the negative news. At least Bitcoin is not budging on any sort of regulatory negative news. So we're going up. I'm a bull and I'm bullish. Josh Chicala, will you break the tie? No, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, and what will the balls say? Here it is. The magical Bitcoin predictor ball. It says outlook, not so good outlook. Oh, so good. So I've just seen it. In the trend, hey, hit like, everyone, like it, like it. And if you don't hit like, at least give us a clap on your own by yourself in front of your monitor. Yeah, if you don't hit like, hit like anyway. That's the most effective form of like a lone clap. You can't like things by hitting the side of your monitor. Just stop that. Stop that. Give us a give us so many likes. Give me as many likes as some sort of Californian teenager. Like, like, like, like, that's a lot of likes. That's a lot of likes. Yeah. Moving on to issue three, the petro dollar and its discontent's point to Bitcoin's role in the financial future. As we all know, and historians regard specifically, the petro dollar is one of the most important consequences of the transition from the Breton Woods framework for a global finance, which centered on a managed gold standard to the more decentralized and market based neoliberal. Some would even call las a fair money system that supplanted it. But now there's trouble in Breton Woods town. That's right. Bitcoin just might be used to sell oil, making it the petro Bitcoin, causing the price to ridiculously rise in value. Dan, Eve, what do you think about the excitement and the future of the petro Bitcoin? Well, we've seen like with the craziness going on in Russia and Ukraine that there's been upsets to the trade, you know, the dollar being used as the index, right? So obviously, there's been an opportunity there for Bitcoin to be used. But what it requires, first of all, before it becomes this de facto index of all things, not just petrol, but you know, a petrol, not just oil, but things like corn, wheat, all these other sorts of markets where Bitcoin could come an index. What it requires, of course, is that countries have massive stocks of it. So if it does happen, it's going to be something that would have to be done very, very slowly. And it would only come after kind of that utopian hyper Bitcoinization where countries suddenly come out of the closet and say, yeah, we've been stacking Bitcoin for years. So we can suddenly start using it to trade each other in oil and also NFTs, right? Because Indonesia, I know you've been buying low-to-border bales recently. And so we'll trade you some of our crypto punks. You know, well, imagine if that becomes a standard, like, so there's a problem with Bitcoin that they can't use it. So they end up using like, you know, curio cards, that's it, right? The corn and wheat becomes curio card traded. I'm picturing like the financial news and it has a picture. It's like one barrel of oil equals 2.5 board apes. But it would be a nice idea for Bitcoin to be used. But yeah, it does require, you know, countries having a stock of this currency. And part of the reason, like, is it the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the trade's in between Russia and Kyrgyz, because Russia had been cut off from the dollar effectively. So, you know, being cut off from Swift and stuff. So you need something that's, that's going to be completely international. But at the moment, which is like Bitcoin, but the fact is that you also need the countries to all have enough of it to actually start trading it together. So yeah, I think it's, it's a utopian sort of thing. But and it will, and maybe we'll get there one day. But it's going to be a slow, you know, it'll be very slowly done because also it's everything's politicized right now. You know, not just Bitcoin, but, I think Russia's largest, Russia's largest bank start accepting Bitcoin or start accepting the processing of Bitcoin, which in the last few days, there could be repercussions of that. There could be fallback in that, that people would say, oh, you know, just as if Trump had suddenly started saying, Bitcoin's the best thing on earth. Like, people would, there would be a thought there would be like fallback from people going, oh, Trump likes Bitcoin. Therefore Bitcoin is bad. So Russia is, is it Russian banks are accepting Bitcoin. Therefore Bitcoin is bad. So there's a lot of political hurdles, I think, to get over not just from a monetary perspective, but just from, you know, countries not liking each other. And so if one country starts using it, that sanctioned, for example, then, then that form of money could then become a, an enemy, not just the, not just the country itself. But yeah, one day, one sweet day. Well, and I've been told that the governments were going to buy Bitcoin, Dan, but they were going to use Coinbase. And now that's all messed up. Can't do that anymore. Jake Gallen, what do you think about the petro dollar, the petro Bitcoin and the future of oil? I mean, let's be honest, how many governments are sitting on Bitcoin right now? I think, I think they all kind of want this. The US government is one of the largest holders of Bitcoin. I mean, they are kind of selling it through Coinbase, which is kind of ironic through this whole entire conversation. But it does seem inevitable that the US dollar will lose its reserve status at some point, probably not at least for maybe a few decades, because of how intertwined it all is. But you're going to, the petro, whatever the petro dollar is or whatever the denomination is, it's going to have to be something universal. I don't think any of these countries are going to want to denominate in the yuan or in the leero or in the euro. I think the whole world is ready to kind of move past something. There's definitely going to be some experimentation. We'll probably even see to try, we'll probably even see some of these countries try to peg oil to whatever their CBDC is. At some point, that kind of seems like inevitable outcome. I don't know how other countries or governments will feel though, having their oil pegged to a centric controlled value system that can be moved and toyed with even more than how the Federal Reserve just adds a few zeroes to their account when they want to print money away. It seems inevitable again to me, whether it's Bitcoin or maybe even a combination or basket of some of these proof of work coins, maybe we'll throw in Charlie Lee's Litecoin in there to add some stability or their favorite tether. Something like that. We are going to move past it at some point. There's definitely some experimentation. I think the new, what is the new system where it's like Brazil? Was it the G5 or G7 they call it? Where it's like Brazil and the Bricks. I hear they are having a rough go already to start. There's going to be a lot of volatility trying to pull away from this petro dollar and Bitcoin will probably be the solution to that or at least a component to that solution. I get Bricks confused with live. One of them is a golf tournament. The other one is an international finance thing. But we all know the US government is saving their Bitcoin to build a Spesonian institution in every state in America. 50 states, 50 Spesonians, they could do it with the Bitcoin. Josh Legala, what do you think about the petro Bitcoin and the money of the future? The thing is that the reason why the American dollar is the default settlement layer for oil is because of some magical thing. It's because of the liquidity of the US dollar. Bitcoin is just not liquid enough for these live transactions at the moment. This is why the Australian dollar isn't the Fido or something else is because it's just not globally liquid enough. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. If anything, I think they would shift to some ridiculous nonsense other fear, like a carbon credit or something. Something that they can still print out of thin air and put a price on and then try to manipulate and use. It won't be some rare asset that's got a true market value that's discovered. It's going to always try to be manipulatable and and controllable. I don't see it. I don't have high hopes for it. If you look at something like why Gaddafi, if you look at Gaddafi trying to settle oil trades in gold, take it down, sit down, take it down. Also wanted to build a gold settlement layer for oil trades. It's something that they don't want because losing, there's a reason why Bitcoin is celebrate at every new use case to Bitcoin or any crypto project. Let's say Bitcoin, if Amazon took Bitcoin, everyone would be celebrating. Because now a new use case, if the US dollar lost the use case of oil settlement for oil trades, it would be such a mammoth blow to the US dollar that you would see huge inflation because you have this collot of money to have the liquidity feasible for some of these trades. Suddenly not have that use case and just to be sitting around behind people's cultures. I don't see it happening soon. The US government is going to defend the death, the use of oil settlement layer using US presidents' faces. Josh is right. It can't be topped. It's no fun at all. Cancel my plans to print silver certificates. It's over. Now you're right, Josh. They probably just make their own coin like oil or OPEC, something like that. Then they'd be, one barrel is nine OPEX. No, Venezuela tried it with the Petro. How'd that work out? Pretty crap. You can trade them for whatever it was, Nordic coin or London coin, Miami coin. It's been so many coins. By the way, you answered that, Josh. Really reminded me of those two Australian comedians who they're like, they're shit about the sink with the front fall off. How'd they turn out crap? The front's not supposed to fall off. The front's not supposed to fall off. Why did it sink? Well, the front fell off. Have you not seen it? It's incredible. Clire case. I think we could get a little bit here, Dan and I about the oil and the front falling off. It was one of the funniest skits ever. I wanted to use it. You're saying about Bitcoin. We shout about when there's a use case, but funnily enough, ones come along for ordinals and BRC 20s. The Trubic coin is going, no, this is terrible. This is the worst thing ever. We don't want this use case. Something came along that literally completely filled the block space and then it became an enemy. When that happens on other chains, they're like, yeah, I'll change it's falling over. It's used so much. I don't know, Jake. Have you experienced that? Do two Bitcoiners hate ordinals? What's been going on to hear? There's a million ordinals now. It's going pretty well by some by numbers, certainly. Well, this is definitely at my alley. This is where I've been down the black rabbit hole of ordinals for the last five months or so. The OG Bitcoiners began to hate it. It feels like now the tides are shifting. There's actually even a narrative going on. It's called Bitcoin Chapter 2, which is basically washing away the Maxis and the new culture, the cultural renaissance that we're calling is it's kind of taking over. I mean, there's a different renaissance cultural revolution, you know, whatever. We're taking over Bitcoin. We're making it what it should be, which is more than just pristine collateral. It's a it's a now a storage layer where you can take anything up to four megabytes and use that block space. There's people building NFT projects, DeFi protocols, people are tracking rare sat down. Somebody just found there's a rare sat hunter named Nolish, shout out if he's listening. You just track down a bunch of sat from block nine, which was the first transaction. I know there's a bunch of them, but finding them is tough. And the way that they're doing this is actually kind of funny. They're going to centralized exchanges and just consistently buying and selling Bitcoin back and forth to kind of to kind of sift through almost like a panning service. And they've actually got blacklisted from a few centralized exchanges because they think they're money laundering. So fine. What can you explain that? It's just like finding sats from these early blocks. So like owning a sat from the first from when Satoshi sent Bitcoin to Halfinney. There's a collectibility perspective there. So people are trying to find these. And the best way to do it is to go to a centralized exchange like Binance and just buy Bitcoin back and forth because they're going to give you a new Bitcoin every time. These programs, Josh, where they're going through and parsing their sats and looking for the so-called rare ones. And then I don't know somehow the program must separate out the sats. None of this, I think, was the original design intent of Bitcoin. But I suppose, you know, if you had the right program, you could do it. So they must have that. They're right in script. So they've gotten banned. You know, there's now on-chain art that's happening. Some individuals are taking documents and storing it. So people, there's discussion around like safety for whistleblowers to take documents and store it on Bitcoin in a permanent state. You were discussing like taking their wills. And this was something Michael Sailor had said, is that he found valuable? He said, hey, you know, if you're worth a billion dollars, how much would it be worth for you to put your will on Bitcoin to know that it's permanently there and that the lawyers won't fuck you over, right? Because it's there, public. So people are finding unique use cases for it. It all just comes down to the idea of permanence is putting something permanently there forever. If you believe in blockchain, you know that Bitcoin is going to be here the longest. It's going to survive all other blockchain. Probably survived past all of us. And so putting something there forever is really appealing to many individuals. But there's all kinds of unique innovations. There's also a bunch of terrible experiments going on too. So don't get me wrong there. But it is highly in a highly experimental phase. I put out a Twitter post today over the last, we'll say three months or so. There's been an introduction of like 30 to 40 different standard proposals to try to figure out like what is the right one for these BRC 20, BRC 721, BRC 30, right? All these different things. People are trying. And it's fun. It reminds me a lot of like DeFi summer on Ethereum. It's a little bit of a combination of the ICO bubble. Instead of white papers, people are just posting out getbooks with documentation. Same thing. Spin up a website, spin an up a Twitter account and get book to get the project started. And a little bit of NFT bull run from last time. So it's a combination of all of it. And it's all because there is an ingrained culture that exists on Bitcoin. So I think a lot of the builders feel a little bit more secure coming over and building because they know that it's not going to go away. Where it's very different of going to a brand new shit coin and that has no community, has no culture, just the dev team. And sometimes you consider if it's even worth building because you don't know if it's going to be here three months from now. Yeah, wow. It's fascinating. Even a lot of the competitor chains and I'd be SV and Bitcoin cash as well. They're all trying to get, they're all getting the ordinals happening on there as well. Yeah, you want to hear something crazy. Actually, you guys will probably enjoy this. Three of the top four marketplaces for ordinals is actually created by Bitcoin as VEK people. They've been dabbling and building with larger blocks for three, four years. And so now coming over and using four megabytes as the block limit, they had a lot of the infrastructure set in place. So ordinals wallet, unisat and ord swap are all from the Bitcoin as V community. They came in and just took it over. And now they're now they're dominating and now they're getting the last laugh. Big of eggs. Big of eggs. But it's interesting you'd say that about the files, Jake, because that was the original plan for WikiLeaks is that you would just send them files and then they would publish them. It wasn't so much like publishing them at a certain time to herd a political candidate or having any kind of speeches or anything. It was more just a generic like this document, you know, with a time stamp in a blockchain would have been ideal. And to see that considered again as another idea is a cool idea. And it's very, it's just it's very Bitcoin. It's very, you know, cypherpunk ideology, libertarian, take things that you want to be out there forever that you don't want to be censored because we see this happening with whistleblowers or people who go against the grain, they go against institutions, you know, media, they kind of just, you know, they get wiped off the face of the earth. So if you go down there and you know, upload your 30 second or one minute clip of saying something as a whistleblower, your interview, your publications, your thoughts, anything like that, I think it's very appealing. And there's a handful of projects that are trying to figure out what's the best way to maybe white glove service set up a portal to have it there, make it very easy for these type of people to go into it and then to sort it. It'll be interesting to see when that pops up. And that kind of stuff's not really in the public of a conversation or top conversation around ordinal is because there's no speculation for it, right? I can't speculate on buying a whistleblower documents and then, you know, make a bag off of it. It's not as that's not as appealing for Twitter as it is to talk about it. If you made a 10 pack and it was Daniel Ellison, like Pentagon papers original, like that's some that's some spicy stuff. I'd like to get it on that. But it almost seems to me like the original people who innovated and put these JPEGs on the blockchain are the real heroes and the ones who can see the good solve Bitcoin's fee prices and in the future, the 2120 we run out of Bitcoin rewards. Moving on to the next issue issue for bringing art collection to Ethereum, the Kerio cards founders mad Bitcoin and entire piece about mad Bitcoin and the founding of Kerio cards, which as you know is one of the most important NFT projects I have ever jaco. What do you think Kerio cards and mad Bitcoin's and how this leads to ordinals and fixing the fee problem and that the Kerio cards creators are the true heroes of the blockchain. I actually, I actually referenced you in a Twitter space as I believe yesterday or two days ago, there was a huge issue or some people were trying frustration of how they're saying Bitcoin's turning into Ethereum and then I said, hey, a bunch of the earliest NFT art on Ethereum is actually Bitcoin art. They've Bitcoin and Ethereum have been borrowing each other since its inception. It goes back and forth. It's just different technologies. Ethereum takes Bitcoin art, which had been already in place and now Bitcoin is borrowing DeFi principles that Ethereum set in place. As you said, it sounds so crazy that memes are going to be what changed Bitcoin forever. But it does seem like that's the thing. No one cared about Bitcoin, well, people cared about Bitcoin, but no one they didn't seriously consider it until you could start putting memes on the blockchain. It's the same thing with Ethereum as well. So the art movement is I think probably the largest catalyst to onboard new users into Bitcoin and Ethereum altogether. And Kerio cards, the first art collection, I know there's debate saying, papirium might be before you guys are something like that. But some of the earliest art is Bitcoin art that exists on Ethereum. And that sparked whole new revolution of how you use blockchains as a storage layers and not just speculation, although that is still a component to it and probably always will be. It's been really interesting because it's been one of the goals with the mad Bitcoin show then with the world crypto network, which is people other than mad bitcoins talking about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. And then with Kerio cards where we're trying to get new people into Bitcoin and blockchain. And we say, okay, well, maybe you like a crazy five minute YouTube show. Maybe you like some longer YouTube shows with different voices. Maybe you like these fun collectibles, right? You like the art aspect. And these are all groups of new people that we're trying to get into Bitcoin and blockchain and cryptocurrency. And it's really neat to see them be successful and be discussed and stuff like that. So it is really cool. And of course, we're going to save the whole block space thing selling JPEGs. Josh, what do you think about this incredible article celebrating this mad bitcoins character who has card 20 and card 21 both about him? Yeah, I'm a holder of one of those cards actually. But yeah, I, NFTs are still fine, absolutely fascinating. But for reasons that aren't there yet, even, I mean, they are, but they're not fully taken advantage of, yeah, and that's, you know, NFTs in in DeFi and stuff like that. But they, you know, you're right. Thomas, it's rare pepies. And what you guys did with Kerio cards really, really forged the way. And a lot of people, I mean, I remember going back to meetups and seeing all these artists going, yeah, but can we put out on the blockchain? Everyone's sort of rolling their eyes like, oh, God, what are you on about? No one really gets or understands what you're talking about. But there you were. And you put that stuff out there. And of course, no one took notice for years until they did. And, and then they went back and tried to find the earliest ones in there. You were the earliest NFT on, on Ethereum. But yeah, I think there's a really interesting idea of having weak like leaks being published as NFTs and then driving a market price for them. So it sort of incentivizes, you know, important leakers. I think it's such a fascinating idea. These sorts of things aren't yet fully realized either. So also with the rise of deep fakes, I think the only way for prominent politicians and prominent people to sort of get around deep fakes is to constantly film from their point of view life and have a time stamped on the blockchain so that they can't be so they can say, look, at that time, I was doing this, it's on my feet, put on the blockchain. So you can, you know, you have to have these prominent permanently recording everything that they're doing because they need to prove innocence on some of these deep fakes. They're just going to be so so hard to determine if it's real or fake. So that's the only way I can see a working and a blockchain that's independent from any manipulatable force is kind of the ultimate security in that sense. Although four megabytes of block just is not enough for that. That's interesting, Josh. That same idea was brought up in Dave Agger's book and the not very great movie, the every and the problem with that though is that it's this kind of Facebook-like organization that has the politicians wearing the camera around their neck recording them all the time and it just doesn't work out well for the politicians, the Facebook people. And as well it's an interesting idea that James D'Angelo from the World Bitcoin network and the old Bitcoin blockchain videos he brought up and he works on as a congressional institute. Sunshine is not always good. There were these votes we used to have in committees where the votes were private and it was good because the lobbyists didn't know how you voted. Once the votes were all public, which Nixon changed, the lobbyists suddenly knew who was voting their way and you could tell whether the money you did paid had been worked out, whether it had been a successful bribe. So there are some occasions where you do want to have private voting and you do want to have privacy of discussion. It's interesting to weigh those two and not just to blindly say because there's this kind of generic thing people say, oh, Sunshine is the best disinfectant. It sounds good so it must be true. Like the boiling the frogs in the pot. That's also not true. They'll jump out. But it's interesting about Curio cards. I know during the rediscovery we had one of these large chats and my friend Jesse Kraken from Jesse Powell from Kraken showed up and Jesse was saying he's like, yeah, I remember Tom had a startup and it sounded pretty cool but I didn't think it was going to be a billion dollars. Obviously, I think he would have invested and helped out and stuff. If he knew it was going to be a billion dollars but Dan Eve, what do you think about NFT saving the world and people writing articles about Curio cards? Crazy. It's cool again to be recognized. You've been saying for years about how there should be like, baseball cars like on these collectors items and lots of people have compared Bitcoin to things like a collectible. Because of its scarcity and the you sort of look at the links between Bitcoin as a scarce item and antiquities where that have their value because there's so few of them left in the world or just one or and I think it's a really cool concept that it's not just the art that's on the block on chain immortalized. It can be anything as Josh have said about legal documents like about a world that can't be altered. It's on chain and it's immortalized there. Isn't that kind of like what was happening with time timestamps? The time stamping is the same thing right, so you can actually store the information on chain now. Was it time stamps? Is it Peter Todd that did time stamps? Yeah, he had some program or something like time stamps where you could put documents on there. I'm not sure if it's still going. Yeah, the general concept of it being immortalized as Jake said that it's going to be longer than anyone living today. It's going to be a year here for almost forever if it becomes, it really becomes so ubiquitous. I guess Cremeac is cosmic is gross. That's a cool idea. We know as humans, we have to pass on down the chain through time is our DNA. It's a form of information. You're just immortalizing another bit of information within Bitcoin that can be referenced forever and it's in mutable. It's the cool thing about it. I like the idea that explaining there are people that I could explain, tried to explain Bitcoin too and they just didn't get it. Money is just a thing they didn't give a shit about. It's like, oh, hard money. Oh, hard money. So hard. The hardest of money and they just wouldn't get it and you're like, no, the digital system is my, and you'd be like, just trying to explain. They just wouldn't get it. And then it's like you can put like, oh, you can trade, oh, and they're like, oh, trading, oh, oh, like, and so people that don't get money, don't get the idea of money and don't like to get into the politics of money, they like to get, they like, oh, they like creativity. Whether it's music, whether it's sound visuals or whatever. So I think that's a cool thing that it's got this new community of people involved who are interested in how Bitcoin can help them in their creativity. And it was, there's lots of people who turn around and be like, I don't know, NFC's are scammed, anything other than Bitcoin's are scammed blah blah blah. You shouldn't use anything, the Bitcoin chain for anything apart from money, but it is quite a good use case that you can immortalize something on jane, right? Like, you know, and it's a free market, right? Everyone, I had this free market stuff when I got into Bitcoin, it's all about free market, very market, very market. Now there's a free market and now they're going, sense of the market, sense of the market, sure, this is this, this, this juped my node. He tricked my node into, into putting this, this JPEG on it. So, um, actually, it's a free market, uh, put my wedding, the hash of my wedding certificate on there on the big, so years and years ago, just because then it's, it's notarized, like it's the ultimate notarizer. And also another use case is patents being able to hash a patent onto the blockchain. That means you don't need to show anybody your patent. And after the fact, if you want to just beauty, because they look, I come up with it first, here it is, hashed on the blockchain, and the date, um, you can rehash it. So there's, uh, there's so many, there's so many cool use cases, and of course, the block space is, is going to come and be the big talking point again. Well, that's like with, with Ethereum, right? The Ethereum was just another, was just another coin until, until the ICO boom. And then it became a fuel for, for all these tokens and all these other use cases that even by talc hadn't a thought of when he, when he, when he theorized that Ethereum. And so, you know, Bitcoin, uh, the, the, the, you saw the fees go mental, because the block says the block space is valuable, right? And if people have a need for the block space and want to pay for it, you know, you might not agree with it, um, from a concept that, you know, it's, it's money just for money, but at least the, you know, the miners are securing the network, it just makes your money more secure, you know? And if you're going to hold on, hold on to it forever, and never, never spend it, then then why should you care about a high fee, right? Because, you know, when you do eventually need to sell a fraction off, uh, to pay for this, that, and the other, then, then at least, uh, you know, the, the, the fact that the demand for Bitcoin for being used for stuff other than just money, as you know, as, oh god, as you, not just a store of value. Um, you know, it's, yeah, it's, it's just, I think it's like David Bowie said, the internet's like this alien thing, you know, back when it was, it was first being used and he said, this, this, this alien thing, we can't even begin to theorize how many different use cases will find for it. And Bitcoin is exactly the same thing. It's like, there's, in five years time, we'll be talking about stuff and being like, oh, I can't believe we didn't think that about that Bitcoin could be used for that back, back then. And that, well, we're, we're, these, these, like, a little, uh, use case and piff and ease will just keep on happening and keep on, uh, creating demand for the block space forever. That's what we're, that's what's happening right now on Bitcoin. You're going to see a ton of new use cases pop up and, uh, we'll see where it really goes. But probably the biggest industry, or one of the best industries to be in, probably over the next decade, as this continues, is a mining and block space. It's probably going to be one of the most valuable things, Bitcoin block space specifically. And we'll be one of the most valuable businesses to be in as fees increase. And from those that are in the ordinal space, most tend to speculate that the fees are only going to increase over time. So you'll see, uh, some flow over to, to stacks and some of these L2s and side chains that will probably get some action like root stock and whatever else pops up. But, yeah, transacting on layer one, Bitcoin, um, is only going to get more expensive, but more secure, right? That's, that's what, that's what we want. Or at least that's what we were, uh, trolling for for some time. And now people are kind of upset about it. It's also interesting to see how the fashion changes over time when we brought out curial cards. A lot of people were Bitcoin maximalists, right? They were negative about the project, the idea they'd see it as as tainting your reputation. I know tone and Jimmy, uh, probably would have been against it if they knew about it at the time. But if you go back to the other ideas, things like rare pepays, spells of Genesis, colored coins before that. And even personally going back to, I think it was one of the first couple episodes of the Bitcoin group where Andreas Antonopoulos talked about his idea of Joey coin. And he was like, Oh, yeah, every kid on the, uh, on the, you know, yard at school will have their own coin, Freddie coin and Tommy coin and Jerry coin and whatever about, you know, but Joey coin will be the most valuable because Joey's so popular. And, you know, Joey has a certain monetary policy. He only gives out his coins to some people or, you know, Freddie coin gives out his coins to everybody. And just that this idea of experimentation could be there. And that yes, Freddie, you know, from the yard, his coins, not very popular or valuable, but maybe someday Freddie becomes president of the United States. And you had some early Freddie coins because you used to play ball together. Uh, you know, it's silly, but we could have that kind of record on the blockchain. We could have that kind of collectible and we can have that Providence chain where in the old days, you'd say, Oh, yeah, you know, we used to hang out with Obama. You know, we used to hang out with him and stuff. And nowadays, you'd be like, Oh, yeah, I hung out with Freddie. And here's my, you know, blockchain proof, you know, we were in the same class or whatever. So it is interesting to think about what these collectibles can be and how everyone can make their own collectibles now. And that's really the exciting part. It wasn't just a way to Gary Gensler gets a hold of that kid. That's right. He's coming for Joey. Yeah. Hey, you can do that. You can do this on Bitcoin now. I actually men deployed and minted Jake DRC 20. So you can go ahead and go go there and go get your Jake meme coin. We're starting a new revolution of Jake five, Jake finance, but you can go do this on Bitcoin now, which is even better. Right. Gary can't take that away from me. You can potentially start censoring my meme coin on on Ethereum. If he gets all of the node operators to collude can happen on Bitcoin. It's never too late to join Jake five. I know I got one of those Marisol Vegas ones. So I got you off. Oh, plot twist. Sorry, no, I got you off because I just plot twist, right? So it was, it's not time to back times of it was open timestamps. And the latest, the latest from open timestamps is that they kind of got hit by by by the the ordinals pumping Bitcoin fees because they had to reach out for donations. The the call of God stuck it was out of money. So people had to donate. And they said, thanks for all the donations. But hopefully that pays for a few more months of fees. But we'll see how crazy the inscriptions people are. So the immortalizing on Bitcoin directly is seems to be killing open timestamps. The new projects are messing up the old, but we're running out of time. Dan, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. Oh, yeah. I'm going to go for something out of this world. And that's even tell he's going to he's going to you turn at some point in the future and he's going to write orange swan about Bitcoin. It sounds like the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Jake Gallen, a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. Oh boy, man, on the spot, story of the week. I guess I'll keep this in the ordinal area because there's always something new happening. This week, the main theme of ordinal is something called cursed inscriptions. If you guys are familiar with this, so ordinal is the numbering system. The whole idea of ordinals is tracking individual satoshi's putting a number. So as something is minted, right, the numbers keep extending. I think they passed 11 million. Turns out curse inscriptions is what's called bugged ordinals or bugged satoshi's. And so they started negative inscriptions. And what turns out is it to be a little bit technical has to do with like kind of like the op op functions. Apparently, there's about 70 different types of bugged ordinals that can happen. And three or four of surfaced. And so naturally, before they kind of publicize this, there was about 1200 negative inscriptions. The Dgennes figured this out and started purposely minting bugged inscriptions. And now they're about close to negative 90,000 in the matter of two weeks. So there's now ordinals going in chronological order and in backwards capacity. And it's quite, quite chaotic. There's some value there. But that is your insanity of the week happening in the ordinal space. Now that people are collecting negative numbers, I have no fear for the future of Kerio cards. Clearly, we're going to be just fine if they're collecting negative numbers now. Josh Legala prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, we're getting very, very close to launching the standard IO. So we're looking at June 20th. This is a hot release here just for the World Crypto Network. We're hoping that we're aiming towards that day. Of course, it'll only be released once if it's secure and every check and everything's been done. So can't give a total guarantee on that date. But yeah, the 20th is where we're aiming and we've decided to actually launch on Arbitrum because of the fact that the ZK EVM on polygon just hasn't got some of the functionality yet that we need. But we will be on the ZK EVM zero knowledge proof stuff is for me the ultimate endgame for layer two is on Ethereum. So we will be on that like probably a month later as well. But we'll be voting on Arbitrum first. So that's that's the news from from everything we're building. Very good, Josh. And everyone can check that out at the standard.io. My story of the week's all about the Oakland athletics who are still in Oakland for at least a few more days. The Nevada Legislator claims to vote on Monday about this on Tuesday 613 Oakland A's fans are having a reverse boycott at the Coliseum. So if you're in the Oakland or San Francisco Bay area, I hope you'll join me there at the Oakland Coliseum. It's a fantastic team that was run into the ground by the owner. And now the owner is going to be rewarded for selling all the players and putting a terrible product on the field. And then what's going to happen is Las Vegas is going to be all upset in five years when they're like, why is the owner putting a terrible product on the field and not spending any money. But that's what this is all about. So June 13, check that out. Also Trump indicted for the second time today. Very exciting story with the documents and the class fight documents going on right now. So and that's breaking today. That's about it though for the Bitcoin group. Be sure to give us a thumbs up and push subscribe down below. Until next week.