The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Joshua Gala from thestandard.io. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. And Eve, the crypto raptor. Greetings, folks. Ben Arck from LNBits. Good evening. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one, coinbase launches layer two blockchain base to provide on-ramp for Ethereum, Solana, and others. Coinbase is built a new second layer for scaling and other D-Apps or distributed apps built on top of optimism and with no plans to issue a network token. Many have seen this as positive for Ethereum and other altcoins and surprising for Coinbase who used to be Bitcoin only. Joshua Gala, what do you think about Coinbase's latest offering base that will allow you to do layer two DApps on Coinbase? Yeah, I don't know what to think about it. First of all, it's a bit weird that the centralized unit is building a so-called decentralized thing. It's also weird that it's called base when it's layer two. Maybe base sounds like layer one. But also, yeah, it's... What if... Binance has got Binance Smart Chain and people use it and they say it's decentralized because they've got all these validators that are out there and Binance doesn't have control of them. Maybe Coinbase will do that as well. I don't know what the security mechanism is of it, but the thing is with optimism is it's just... For me, it's a stop gap in the scaling solution for Ethereum. It's not really a good scaling solution because you have to wait like seven days for those that don't know how optimistic roll-up works. Basically, it assumes that it's an op... That everyone's a good actor, which is first of all a weird thing to do. But if there's a bad actor that lets a bad transaction through as one of the validators, then you've got seven days or the whole community's got seven days to basically say, ah-ah, that was a bad... That was a good transaction. And then that validator gets their deposit-slashed for not doing a right thing. But it means every time you want to bring funds back to the base layer, you have to wait seven days. So it's really a terrible scaling solution. It's not fast, it's horrible. Whereas, some of the zero-knowledge proof stuff that's coming out is instant. On Ethereum, you can talk to layer two, like a contract, smart contract on layer one, can actually talk to layer two. Because it's a real-time place, you've got the privacy stuff. I just think it's weird that Coinbase chose to use optimistic roll-up technology for their circle base when they could have been running, should have been research and developing zero-knowledge proof stuff, which is just far better. I just feel bad for Coinbase at this point. John Schmension, Binance, Smart Chain, which of course has its own token. The whole point of doing these things seem to be having your own token that you can sell at a low price, and then it goes to a high price, and then you can dump it on people. Or you get funds and fees every time people use your smart token. I'm sure they're going to charge fees on this, and they'll make money somehow. But it just seems like they're always playing catch-up, they're always playing follow the leader. Although they tried to make this a big announcement on 2.23.23, it didn't really take off that much, and I don't know if it's going to work. I also wonder about running distributed apps on a centralized service like Coinbase. Coinbase now responsible for every transaction that goes through if you're running a drug website through this layer 2 is Coinbase now running a drug website through this layer 2. In the articles, they said that they will gradually and responsibly make it distributed. I don't know what that means. So I'll have to see. Dan Arck, more on Coinbase, layer 2. Dan E, sorry. Well, Dan Arck's actually a really cool name. Now I'm going to go and change it by depot. No, you'll be like the libertarians. Everyone's name will be Freeman, all of a sudden. Yeah. So, well, I think there's very confident, self-confident of Coinbase, right? Because they're constantly having these regulatory battles being kind of the biggest US exchange. So for them to go and do something like this is actually quite bulls-y, right? They're not creating their own token, but as you pointed out, what happens when an app does something nefarious, right? Are they responsible for that? What point is the tipping point of decentralization where they wouldn't be responsible for it? There's kind of lots of questions I think that need to be answered from a regulatory standpoint, because I think they're going to get a lot more breathing down their neck right now. And this is using Ethereum. I mean, OAP sounds quite, you know, optimistic roll-up sound quite cool. Not as cool as Josh's putting it out as zero-knowledge proofs. And there's also ZK roll-ups as well, that there's a few projects doing ZK roll-ups. But why, if you're using Ethereum and you're saying, right, we're using Ethereum because of security, then why not use Bitcoin for the security? Why not have like a federated side chain on Bitcoin, which is much more secure? Maybe it's because they have the same, I don't know, fresh from their investors about being green, environmentally friendly. And now the shift of Ethereum's proof of stake means that Coinbase can be a zero-carbon kind of company. Whereas if they do not Bitcoin, there would still be people moaning about boiling whales and whatever else nonsense. But they're not gaining the best security of the most current work. But ultimately, it seems like something that's quite risky for them, the fact that they are under the SEC's nose all the time. But maybe having not having a token will help them come out unscathed. But I can definitely see the censorship thing being a problem in terms of DAPs. You know, why would you run a, want to run a DAP on Coinbase, Coinbase base if it could be censored? Why wouldn't you run it on an actual decentralized platform? I agree, Dan. It almost seems like Coinbase is trying to get the regulators to come down on them. They're like, earn isn't illegal enough. Try out our layer two DAPs. And remember that the United States, they're going to get it. And remember that the United States said that all the Ethereum staking or 70, 80% of it took place in the US. Therefore, the US owned and could regulate that network. The obvious question is, where is this Coinbase base staking, mining, whatever it's going to be called these days? Where does it exist? And will the US directly regulate it? And remember that during the segwit and the scaling wars, Coinbase was exclusively supporting anti-seguit, larger blocks. Then they wanted Bitcoin 2x with larger blocks. They never liked the Lightning Network. They still don't have it on their platform, which is amazing and disgusting. And it just seems like they're throwing another pie in Bitcoin's face here. And I just wonder if we look at this at the end of the day and they don't make it, even though they're on the stock market, even though they had all these advantages and why combinator and whatever, will it be because they walked away from Bitcoin? Ben, Ark, what do you think about Coinbase's base? I guess it's for control, which is why they probably don't like Bitcoin because they couldn't control it. When historically they tried to enact some control. I'm not saying that anyone who wanted bigger blocks wanted a control. I mean, I want a bigger blocks at the time. I didn't want control of Bitcoin. But to then turn away from Bitcoin because they didn't get that way, it means that they had their nose part of the joint because they didn't think they could control the thing. So as a business like what's the incentive, they either need this thing to exist to make their business model work better. Like why are they investing in this thing? Like they need this thing to exist to make their business model work better. That's one possible reason. And then the other possible reason is they just want control or to be able to make that control. And I suppose there's a third reason as well. We should always assume these big huge entities in our space, have been coerced by whatever government they reside in, particularly at a time now where all the stuff's coming to the surface more and more. And these governments are going to try and enact some control. So you have to be very careful, like people have to be very careful, which platforms they trust. And personally I'm not going to trust some blockchain layer 2, which is being created by Bitcoin like Coinbase. It's just, yeah, it sounds like an internet to me, like a Google machine for, because for every reason what they're trying to do doesn't work or they just want more control. And both those reasons are bad. I agree with Josh, like the ZK stuff, the way, but it's still a bit more complicated. And it wouldn't be something which they could control. So why would they, why would they promote such a thing? According to the articles that I've read, the reason that you would build your distributed app on Coinbase is to get access to their millions of users and their hundreds of millions of dollars. So it almost seems like once again, with the altcoins, we're going to be selling these to people without information, people that are on your platform already. And like we've seen in the past with Coinbase, they designed that education platform, where you can learn about the Ponzi scheme before you invest in it. And it just seems like they're going to be taking their users through the car wash here. It's like, will they survive? And it's this beautiful, like this like sushi, sushi little thing where it can bear belt, where it's going to move the little things by and you're like Bitcoin, Bitcoin cash, Coinbase base, Ethereum, all these things keeps growing by and it's like, who cannot buy these things and hold their Bitcoin? That's the challenge. And it seems like it's getting harder and harder for Coinbase users to survive that challenge. I think Benark's really touched on something very interesting there, as well as everyone here in the panel actually. But I am always suspicious of the government where a major company resides, a major company. Because there is, it's just outright fact that the whatever you want to call it, hate the term deep state because it's been co-opted. But basically all the FBI's and CIA's, the dark side of the state, they want to make sure that if these financial products are a threat to national security, then what you want to do is make sure that you control that threat. And so how do you do that? Well, liquidity goes where liquidity is. So if you can have the layer two with the most liquidity, and this is one of the big problems of the layer two competition landscape, is that every new layer two that pops up, the liquidity gets spread between all the different layer two. So and this is not good, especially for something like Dexas. If you want to make a large transaction without slippage on an automated market maker, you've got to go to the layer two with the most liquidity so that it doesn't happen. So you'll go there and add your liquidity to that area. So more and more people will congregate around that layer two, similar to our beta max and VHS, one out VHS, one out because they had the liquidity of the cassette tapes, of more of those tapes around. So if you have the liquidity, then people will go to base, which is then owned by America, well, an American company in American state and controlled by that functionality. And infrastructure. So yeah, I think that could be one of the reasons. It could just be, hey, some techies get an hour a week to build their own stuff. Some of them came up with this and they're like, I'll call let's release it. But I don't think so. I think anything that gets full release and press releases like this has been thought out and it fits into some sort of plan. It doesn't, it's not just, let's just roll something out for the for the laws. One good thing about this is that at least Coinbase is a relatively trusted company. According to what we've heard about FTX, they put all of their customers into the investing, lending, Alameda, whatever it was. Coinbase could do the same thing here, converting all of their customers funds into base liquidity. But I believe we can trust them and they won't do that. So at least that's one plus. Yeah. More on this issue. Moving on to the exit question, predict against the Bitcoin predictor ball, the baldest and true source of all Bitcoin wisdom who last week denied you of its wisdom. Josh Shagalla, will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower next week? I think we're kind of move sideways for a little bit. So I'm going to sit on the fence. Sideways of push, Dan, Eve, higher or lower? Well, I'm going to go higher and as a great contract trader, that means that I'm going to hopefully be able to buy some cheaper Bitcoin next week when it's cheaper because I got it wrong again. I don't think it works if you predict against yourself while you're predicting against yourself. But we can try that reverse psychology here. Ben, Ark, higher or lower? I'm probably going to go higher, but I am. I got this. I'm looking at it and so it would be my story of the week. But yeah, higher. Higher, Ben is picking higher. Here we are with the ball shaking it may cause bubbles. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Cannot predict now. The ball is withholding once again. That's the way it goes. Sometimes there's just not an answer. Issue two, Bulgarian investors, investigators claim crypto queen was murdered in 2018. Rooza Initova, who founded one coin and helped promote it on stage across the world, is allegedly at the bottom of the Ionian Sea being killed and murdered on a drug dealers yacht, cut up into pieces and thrown overboard. Bonus, this was probably predicted by Martin Wishmare on our shows who said, yep, she's dead. We've talked about one coin before. Remember, one coin was promoted like a multi-level marketing scam. They rented hotel rooms and conference centers. They went around and they talked to non Bitcoin people. They told them they had a better Bitcoin. They told them that they would double their coins by November and as Chris DeRose and Jonseth so bravely reported with hidden cameras and microphones. The guy said, I know it in my knower that one coin is going to the moon. Dan Eve, she promised she would double your coins. Allegedly, she and the scam itself stole as much as five billion dollars is this the end of one coin. Well, it wouldn't surprise me if people still tried to buy it now to be honest. There's so many people that would want to catch a falling knife. It kind of sounds quite logical, but she really did disappear sort of with the face of the earth. You would have thought one side, there's the fact that she had potentially billions behind her so she could change her face, change her name and go completely in cognito after that. The other side, obviously, they're saying that she was killed by a drug dealer and thrown off the boat. Maybe he didn't have his coins doubled and realised that he just bought Bitcoin and was a bit pissed off about that. But some people say it's just fake news to throw them off the scent, but this wasn't something that just kind of come out of the blue. It was as a result of a policeman dying last year or being killed. And then it papers that he had statements that he had showing that apparently saying that she was thrown off. Also, you think that the FBI would be a bit more well researched on the matter if that was the case because they just put her on the wanted list a few years ago. So four years or something after, three, four years after she actually went missing. But recently as well, I think it was this year that her ex-boyfriend was sentenced to five years for money laundering. So there's people around her that are kind of going down. But yeah, I don't know. I think I'm kind of with Martin. She probably rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. When you scam that many people, then you're going to have targets on your head. You're going to have crosshairs on your head. And if it's kind of, if you ripped off big drug dealers who have got giant yachts, then you're going to end up literally swimming with the fishes. As they're saying, she was kind of dismembered and all sorts of gruesome stories about it. But unfortunately, that's what happens when you scam people. Not everyone gets that fate, of course, but when you do it to that scale, maybe not sandbank when freed, I don't know. But not saying I want that to happen in any way. But he's obviously pissed off probably quite a lot of people as well. So imagine if he ends up sharing a cell with a dude committed crimes because he lost a bunch of money in FTX. I don't know. It's 2023. Any story can go right now. But sadly, a lot of people lost a lot of money. And as you said, they did this thing where they had these huge halls out, like convention centres and they would do these big kind of elaborate presentations and things. And it was like, when you watch those videos, they're really cringy. Like, when I came out of uni, I went for a few kind of jobs that promised the earth and and was juved into going to them. And they turned out to be literally like dorted or like dorted or sales jobs. But like they're sort of like selling electric or whatever. And it was all about basically, you know, the under thing was like, well, you know, your best bet is to catch an older who doesn't really know what they're doing and sign up and like, I don't want to be a part of this. This is terrible. The things they were saying, like the guy like, when I was doing things, he was driving around in like the 20-year-old car. It's literally a heap of crap. And he's like, if I just do this for a few more weeks, I'm going to be like Timmy with his like sharp tank, you know, in his office blah, blah, blah. But when you watch these like one coin presentations, like it's all the same kind of deluded sense of like, you know, exponential wealth growth. It's you know, it's like, it's very sad because people, you know, people want to make a lot of money and they want to make it quick. And when you've got someone who's offering something like this, it's easy to latch onto, especially, you know, if you haven't been burned before in a small way. So yeah, unfortunately, she's probably rubbed up a lot of people the wrong way and it wouldn't surprise me if she disappeared, you know, via the old route. Well, I'm not so sure it was an investor. I think it's a little romantic that Ignatov and SBF could both be taken out by rogue investors. It seems more to me like she might have been the front woman of this scam and that someone else put the money in someone else rented all the hotel conference centers, someone else made the presentation, someone else bought the handlers sent out the things bought the mailing lists wherever they got these people. And then at the end of the day, that person followed the first rule of assassination, killed the assassin. Ben, Ark, what do you think about one coin? She'll double your coins by November. I mean, the whole one coin scam was actually horrific and it, it's huge a lot of people and it's all off what was annoying. So all that stuff, all the ICO scammers, which were around at that time and this one coin scam was even ICO scammers, just like a fake website, Exchange scam where people would put like 25k, 50k, K-bines. And they were just vulnerable people, a lot of people were like from the city of London and they heard about Bitcoin. And the next thing's going to be the next Bitcoin blah blah. And this is Females Tashy and then that's why they'll buy an answer because they thought they could do as well as they would do something like Bitcoin. So all these people inevitably are piggybacking off all the good work of all these Bitcoiners and all these people working developing this incredibly revolutionary software and then the scammers capitalise it. But I agree with you, Thomas, that we should be too quick to judge like, you know, yeah, like she sucked for wearing a scam, right? But if she's been killed by this mafia, I mean, during that time when all the S.C. Air stuff was going on, I remember there being lots of clear like, mafia is involved in scaring people. There were some coins and tokens which were released in some videos which were released and it was clearly they were clearly like connected, you know. And if I personally was like a criminal mastermind, mafia boss, and was book air, book airing mafia mafia boss, I would find a fairly smart intelligent woman, which she was. I would kidnap her family, I would threaten to kill them and I would say, right, you're now going to be the front face of the scam and you're going to tell people, you know, about the scam blah blah, you're going to convince them it's a good idea to buy in and they'll buy in and I'm going to kill you. That's very plausible. That stuff like that happens, you know, within the criminal world. And I think it's just another classic example of, you know, when you have shady business, like, and you have big money involved, like people die. I happen to be drug stuff all the time, like lots of people die, because, you know, they're outside, they're in the wild west, they're outside of the normal rule base which people live by. But yeah, it's if she's dead, it's sad and if she isn't dead, she's an actual scabber then, you know, scourged or all, but I can't help feeling that there's a possibly she was just a puppet. So I don't want to judge her too much. But yeah, thankfully the words are a little bit wiser and people are less likely to be able to profit or full the good work that Bitcoin does, because there's these examples and yeah, sadly those examples come with a lot of tragedy. But there we are. Yes, I don't have any evidence that Satoshi was a woman or a man, but I do know that Dr. Rooza Inatova CEO of OneCoin was indeed a woman. Girl power. Girls can do anything. Josh Shagalla, what do you think about OneCoin and the disappearance of the CEO? Well, first of all, it was only like what, it was 30th of January I read a story about on on D-Cripped actually that they found her because she had an apartment in London. And so I don't know what to believe anymore, but anyway, I think that wasn't actually, so it's because that's mentioned in the article I didn't think I think that was kind of like the book just proof that she exists. It seems like it could have been someone using her name or her bank accounts and at the time we, I think we reported on it, we said, oh, she's alive, but maybe just her bank accounts or her signature was alive. I see. Yeah, I mean, look, she's obviously a full guy. You cannot have such a big outfit. She'd be busier than a one-legged man in a buck kicking contest if she had to run everything by herself. So there's other people that took part in this. And so it's really, it's about finding finding the whole outfit. I mean, it's really awful. I remember I even had an open-sourced letter that I was trying to get together using GitHub to try and bring this one coin down because every, everywhere I went in terms of little meetups and things, there'd be some new kids that have never heard anything about cryptocurrency going, oh, if you heard about this one coin thing and trying to chill it, it was just everywhere all the time. And I remember just being really pissed off at it all. But yeah, look, it definitely wouldn't surprise me if she's at the bottom of the sea, but at the same time, it's, yeah, you just can't rip that many people off without being, being off someone. I'm really quite surprised that Sam, Sam, making free of it hasn't been assassinated either or even at the time Mark Carpellas, I was surprised that he was untouched. So because people get really, really passionate and you don't even need bad people. You just need someone that's really desperate because they've lost everything and angry and just wanting to get revenge. So it's, yeah, but yeah, well, I hope they do find the other perpetrators and they keep on searching for these, you know, because one coin was particularly egregious. I agree, but Josh, it's almost like a competition amongst bad people who can steal the most money before something happens. But we all know the one true route to getting assassinated is printing silver certificates. Yes, printing silver certificates. And as Ben was saying earlier, big money often leads to death. I want to remind everyone once again of what Ross Ulbrecht did with the Silk Road. People were trading large amounts of cannabis for large amounts of money with no violence. This has never happened before in human history and is something laudable about that website. Moving on to the exit question, forced prediction, is this the last will here of Dr. Roussa? Is she dead? Dan Eve, yes or no? I think she is. Yeah, I think she's gone now. We would have had a bit more news. I think it's been basically nothing since 20, 2017 when she disappeared. Ben, arc five billion dollars gone. A movie book ending here? I mean, yeah, if you're the outfit behind her, then she's like, you know, what do you call it? A degree of separation, which you can get rid of from you getting it being put in jail. So yeah, she's dead. Like Mr. Pink said in Resmore Dogs, that's one more step closer to me. And that can't happen. Josh Shagalla is she dead. Well, yeah, she probably is. And it means the outfit behind her, like Ben said, is in the clear because that's the end of the story. I'm the only one around here acting like a professional effing thief. A minute ago, you're about to tell me your name. I think she's dead too. I think this is the end of Dr. Roussa and one coin. I agree with Josh, though, it's sad that many of the foot soldiers were not caught. Many people perhaps were paid to promote this and were not punished and might have gotten to keep their ill-gotten gains. Moving on, looking for up to date with looking to stay up to date with the latest news and developments in the exciting world of cryptocurrencies. Look no further than the world crypto network. Our team of experts provides insightful analysis and engaging discussions on all things crypto related, whether you're a seasoned investor or just getting started, our content is accessible, informative and entertaining. So why wait? Join the world crypto network today and stay ahead of the curve and there's rapidly evolving industry. Those words were entirely written by artificial intelligence. All I said was write a short advertisement for the world crypto network. Amazing, huh? Check out world crypto network at worldcryptonenetwork.com. Subscribe today. Bitcoin and FTX scam coming from the emerging world and from retail investors. This is clearly proof that the utility theory value is a scam because by these things being destroyed, it's added huge value onto Bitcoin. Like hundreds of billions worth of value onto Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. It's good that FTX is gone. It's more valuable now because it's no longer muddying the waters and we're better for it. So we've just got to wait for the price to catch up the exchange value to catch up with it. But yeah, it's I don't see it like a loss of value. I see there's a massive gaining value. The fact that these things are gone. I also think that none of these investors have lost if they haven't sold. If they wait and if it does come back up as many people believe, they'll be fine. But the article can't see that as a possibility. Josh, Shagall, what do you think about the FTX investors being mostly retail and from the emerging markets? Yeah, absolutely tragedy. It's really sick. And this is why I'm such a big fan of decentralized finance and I know everyone's going, but I like it because you're dealing with smart contracts where you still hold the keys. You don't have to trust other people. You have to trust the code because most people can't code and you have to trust that you can't, you know, if they get too complex, it becomes harder to see even for a code if there is a bug. But but FTX or any centralized exchange where you're trusting the exchange even with the proof of reserve stuff, you can't prove everything. And so by having decentralized finance and smart contracts dealing with it, you still hold the private keys in a good system. And you don't need all this stuff. When we look back at it, these centralized financial products will be as useless as a chocolate teapot, like just just pointless. It will melt, you know, so better to head towards these defy decentralized finance. And if you don't like any of that, then the original defy is Bitcoin. Dan Eve, they say that FTX wiped out the little guy. What happened? It's really sad that retail investors always get burned, right? And that's the sad thing is the retail investors always seem to get burned because they're kind of, they're a bit less strategic, right? And they obviously don't have algorithms and and cons and whatever helping them make these trading decisions. So they tend to get, and they're also let, you know, they're at least likely to get the information before they're kind of bigger entities do. So that's really sad. Then you're combining that with retail investors from emerging markets. So, you know, people, I mean, hopefully these aren't people that they literally give, you know, it's their month salary and year salary and whatever on the complete life savings. Because, you know, but the still, the fact that this from emerging markets makes it sound even worse, right? You wouldn't be so bad. It was like a bunch of Brits lost their, lost their funds due to it. But, but I think one thing is this kind of positive in a way, because there's always a bright, always look on the bright side of life. So in Monty Python, is that every scam makes people realize that they should have just bought Bitcoin, because you can go chasing all these unicorn like projects that are just going to make you lots and lots of money and quickly. But you have such a high risk that that companies aren't going to go off with the funds, especially if they're kind of utility token type companies that just have clearly no intention of providing utility in the first place. And they've got, you know, no plan, no strategy. They just rely on the pump and dump schemes. So at least in that respect, every scam that happens, there are more people that want to turn to a safe haven. And Bitcoin is the safe haven, not just against the original financial markets, but against the crypto scams. So that's pretty sad. The fact that the markets inside of it, they focus on the fact that people lose lots of money on crypto and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I worked in a bank for a well-banked finance company for a long while. And I knew lots of traders. And some of them were pretty intelligent like people. And they lost a lot of money on shares all the time. So like, you know, you can criticize people or pick up on people losing money in crypto specifically, from say Bitcoin. The price of Bitcoin going down and the Bank of International settlements has been jumping on this and giving there, you know, quite rightly on the general scam of FTX, but also, you know, chiming in that Bitcoin this year, FTX going down means Bitcoin's also bad. But ultimately, people lose money on stocks. They lose money on trading for it. They lose money on lots of other things. And so, you know, those things still happen. But it's because it's Bitcoin specifically, or at least it's a cryptocurrency company that that held people's Bitcoin. They have the chance to beat Bitcoin with a stick again. But, you know, it's just for saying that the fact is that you even though you've got the proof of key sort of thing going on, you can never trust a centralized entity. So, just to hold your own keys, like it's this thing, right? Whether there's going to be, they haven't actually been many repercussions, more than the last sort of month of other companies going down after the FTX downfall. Obviously, there's Gemini and I think Gemini and what's the name having a spat as well. Gemini and Genesis. Is it a little currency group? Yeah. But I think there's still more to come from the Ripples. I think it's still a bit, it's still a bit silent now. But sadly, I just feel for all the people that lost money in FTX and any other scam, one coin, and there's just so many of them. So, you just need to keep your wits about you and stick to Bitcoin, really. I think that goes well into the exit question. When Sam Bankman-Free, the famous CEO from the pages of Forbes and Fortune magazine, learned that FTX had cost retail investors in the emerging world more than anyone else. How did he react? Was it like the Native American in the old garbage trash advertisement with the one tier tripping down his face? Josh Tagalog, how would Sam Bankman-Free allegedly, of course, react to this sad news? Oh, we'll eat Sam. I'm sorry. It'd probably do a bunch of Twitter spaces, yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. So sorry. Ben, let's stand, Eve, how would Sam react? Yeah, I think he'd do a world tour of a world tour, like the BP oil spill in South Park, with different outfits on and stroking animals and kissing babies and being like, I'm so sorry. You know, like the politicians doing all that, just trying to get his reputation back. But it's fuked because he seems like he's a giant, great big scammer. Seen as like. Ben, Arca, do you think these retail investors in emerging countries would react if SPF told them, he's sorry. I think he's, I think he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, doesn't quite shoulder the gelt, so be, I'm sorry. But I was given all these people the opportunity to join in, in, in, in, in, in, in, and they're whining about, you know, he wouldn't be at a true sorry. I clearly didn't read the article properly, so I'm sorry for my response to it. I was like, fuck yeah, bitcouple, it's worth my money now. It's very sad that these poor people lost their money and it's in emerging markets. I agree with the rest of the panel. Yeah, I agree with Ben. I think he would say, sorry, but he doesn't really care. He just, he'd, he would deflect, he'd say, oh, was someone else's fault? Oh, it was a CZ from Binance's fault or, oh, it was Caroline's fault. It was anybody but him. Moving on to issue four, the San Francisco Federal Reserve is hiring for digital currency development. Like the New York based counterpart, the office is looking for a CBDC developer, which is not a real thing. It sounds like the job application is for senior application architect, digital currency. It sounds like the San Francisco Federal Reserve as well as the New York Federal Reserve have joined Russia and Iran and other countries working on a central bank digital currency. People have been talking about CBDCs for a while and I've been kind of thinking they're wrong, but I guess we're at that stage like Gandhi said, where they imitate you. They are now copying the evil, worthless, Ponzi scheme Bitcoin and using it as the plans for their countries, CBDC. Josh, Agala, what do you think about this strange development? CBDCs are probably one of the most dangerous things for freedom and people need to take it seriously that this is happening that we need to have discussions. We cannot just sit back and say, this is just happening. We shouldn't just say, this is just the central banks are now doing this because it will basically mean that the federal government has an atomic level of transparency into your own financial transactions. A lot of people say, what's the difference between now? They can see stuff now. No, they can't. Your bank is obligated to keep your privacy. At the end of the day, your bank has transferred a whole bunch of money to another bank from its customers and the other bank has transferred a whole bunch of money to your bank throughout the day from their customers. At the end of the day, it goes up to the Fed and the Fed settles just one transaction from that bank to that bank. The Fed don't know all the details of what happened in between. If you remove that, if you allow the central bank to be instantly real time down to the cent or down to the sub cent, they can start to then say, well, control transactions. There is a lockdown now in your area and you're moving past your lockdown at 15-minute city zone where you're not allowed to spend your money. Or there's obesity epidemic. You've already had your ration of sugar or well, we've got a stopglobe warming and you've had already two grams of beef too much. Your wallet won't work. Whatever you think, it's only worse and whatever your political leaning, it's only going to be worse. It's not something that should be done. There's no point. There's already real time settlement. The real time settlement, A, can be done in cryptocurrency that's decentralized, but B can be done in Venmo and things like that. The private sector can deal with real time settlement. It doesn't need it. This is just a fast to control money and to basically control it's citizenry. It's awful. We should stand up against it or at least have a conversation. Well, it's always trouble when I agree with Josh, but it does sound like a government's wet dream. During the Bush administration, they had a crackdown on pornography and other things that they didn't like. They actually had to go there physically and do these kind of things. What they could do, presumably, with a CBDC is anytime you spend money at a bad business, they could shut down the bad business account. They could shut down your account. There's all kinds of fun things that they could do. It's not just like knowing how much is in your bank account. Like Josh, it's knowing every single transaction on the ledger. Dan, Eve, what do you think about this exciting job opportunity in San Francisco? Well, I think it's the first thing I thought was San Fran shit coin. Why would it be them specifically doing it? Surely that would be done. I'm not really, I say, with the whole infrastructure, but the federal level, because it must be a dollar. It's still a dollar, right? They're half. They're not going to create that. Remember that in the United States, the Federal Reserve is just about as federal as federal express. It's not really part of the government. But it is interesting to see the San Francisco and New York offices competing against each other. Are they both making CBDCs? Are they working together? I don't know. Yeah, I've been interested to hear the mechanics of that. The most interesting about that article is that I think it said, I'm sure it said like 11 countries have already 11 countries have fully launched to CB fully launched to CBDC, including the Bahamas and Nigeria. I don't know. It is 11 countries have got a CBDC. But what I'm assuming that is it blockchain based? Is it like a, like JP Morgan's private ledger, though, building or is it like an actual public ledger? That's quite interesting that there's already countries that have actually implemented it. There hasn't been much talk about them as test cases and how it's going. You haven't seen any articles of like, Nigeria's CBDC has gone really bad or really well, whatever. So maybe, I don't know, I'm going to read a lot more about that before next week. It seems like it's the way to go. The countries at the moment are still, especially the larger economies, are still very shady about Bitcoin. They kind of, I think they realize it's power and they need power to control which Bitcoin doesn't give them. Bitcoin takes more power away from the monetary, their own monetary system. So this all is about a power grab. And I would just like the when it gets to a case of like being able to control going into a shop and be like, oh, Dan said something bad on Twitter or, you know, it can go down to that level and everything's going to be scrutinized even more so now than in the US, it's transactions over $600. Now have to be declared. Is it something like that? They've proposed things like that, but I'm not sure they've actually gone through. It's been proposed, right? But you can tell with all these proposals that they're reaching out. I mean, even the EU dropped their limits on the amount that you can accept for cash before it needs to be formally declared. You know, you could pay huge, you could buy a car with cash, like a brand new car with cash back in the day. And now if you're accepting large sums of cash, it needs to be declared in AML and KWC and all that. So it kind of only makes sense that with this crazy outreach and especially kind of magnified by the lockdown controls that they were able to do over the COVID restrictions, the power grab is here to stay and it's not just, you know, it's not going to go away and you need to fight for it. You need to fight for your freedom because they're going to take it. But it's not even getting to the fire. It's not even being talked about. It's just in the newspaper, oh, by next year we'll have a CVDC. It's not like, should we do this? What's the benefits? What's the, you know, the only benefit is apparently real-time settlement. Like I give a crap if the shop down the road gets my money at the end of the day or the next day. Anyway, I mean, I swipe my card. It doesn't matter. But also, where's the real bottleneck? Well, the real bottleneck is an international transfers. That's the one that takes a week. So, and that's not going to be solved unless you go, well, what's the natural progression? You go, the natural progression is real-time settlement on a country level. And then, well, we should do us a full global currency, CVDC through the international bank of settlements. And now we have a one-world currency where one government basically controls what everyone does. And we have to do that because of carbon emissions. And by the way, social credit score plugs perfectly into this, as well, you're not allowed to spend more than this because XYZ. You're allowed a ration of chocolate this week because you used the green light and you didn't jaywalk. I don't know how petty these people will get, but it's ridiculous to give them the power to be able to do it. And once again, I'm agreeing with Josh. I went right there. The problem of how do you set all multiple CVDCs together? Global coin above all CVDCs. A one coin. Yeah. One to bind them. One to find them in a darkness. Bind them. As the article says, the posting says the team developing the CVDC has the feel of a startup. And you could make between $134,000 and $215,000 to sell out your fellow man and create a system that will track them forever. Ben, Ark, what do you think? It's got a feel of a startup. It's in San Francisco. Are you going to move? Are you going to take the job? If you play out the game theory on it, I think we've got to be worried about ultimately because all the countries are incentivized not to use another country's CVDC. So we don't want the US dollar CVDC to be the world reserve currency in the way in which any world reserve currency has kept its power is through force and through control and coercion and hatred. And ultimately, I think it just drifts to great liberty and the ultimate answer for country-wide salmate layer is Bitcoin, just use Bitcoin and a political money and plenty of economists came, died for the cause. I'm trying to push the bank or join Bretton Woods. So I think that's where it will inevitably drift. And I think one of the ways in which we get there is let these big countries with the big salaries and the central banks and all this shit. Let them build these gimmicks. But we empower the smaller countries. So it's it's we empower the smaller countries with the free and open source software stack to build that free and open source CVDCs. What everyone will call them. Sovereign digital currencies and you build on something like Bitcoin. So be able to run on decent free and open source technology stack. And then it's just like software you have for product yourself, free and open source software. And ultimately for free and open source wins out because with any of everyone's interests for or web servers not to be controlled by Microsoft to be controlled by a free and open source software package or free and open source software packages. So I think Bitcoin will eventually win out and I think the way we do that is we as Bitcoin as we admit that we this attitude that we're like, oh well, all these poor countries should just use Bitcoin. And it's like no, they need something better. They need something that was sustainable. So we need to build a stable thing on Bitcoin for them to use and help more more people into Bitcoin. We empower them. Get them using Bitcoin. So we've seen to rockable with Bitcoin and then they'll start settling using Bitcoin and then all these big and then they won't want to use the USD CVDC. And anyway, the USD can enforce that is through cohesion to root force. And then everything will just drift towards using Bitcoin. So I think it's a very important step in Bitcoin's evolution. Now I swear it's the thing which is going to cause the next crazy, like the amount of liquidity which would flood into Bitcoin because of it is the thing which would cause the next cycle is when countries, poorer countries use the free and open source software stack to build really good stable coins. Just for stability for day to day, we need to move exchange. And then if people want to use the savings technology of Bitcoin, they could just use it natively. Then when it pulls in the liquidity, eventually Bitcoin is as big as BAM-Mith and the price isn't going to move. Stuff is priced in Bitcoin and then they could just use Bitcoin natively. Things to show I'm worried about is like backdoor CVDC says Elon Musk was producing his own coin and creating a weChat. And then as a state pop it then becomes the backdoor CVDC which people start using. It's all temporary. Everything we drift towards using Bitcoin. I think BAM's right here. I think he's predicting the future that countries will use Bitcoin as a settlement layer. But only after they've wasted tons and tons of money and years and years of time all creating their own CVDCs and then all failing. It would be interesting like Ben said if the smaller countries developing countries, whatever work together all started using Bitcoin maybe could even get ahead of these first world or developed countries and beat them in the race. So that could be kind of an interesting opportunity there as no doubt these countries have to go through this CBDC phase before they can even think about Bitcoin. Just like Coinbase or Binance or anyone else, it's like I'll just print my own coin. And it's government. Salvador didn't. They went straight. But yeah. And it doesn't work in our Salvador. No one uses Bitcoin. The reason no one uses Bitcoin is because it sucks for everyday payments. If they had their Salvador and Bitcoin they would all use that and it's because they love our Salvador. And they would use it instead when we did exchange. It's the thing which needs to happen and just please happen. Yeah. Well, this is why I'm so focused on building a stablecoin, a collateralized over a collateralized. But yeah, sadly it's not on Bitcoin. But that's because the tech stack isn't and liquidity. There's a whole bunch of reasons. But yeah, one really interesting point that you brought up was that it'll go through a system like in in countries in Africa where the private sector actually created money using SMS credits. And then the government basically went and took that over and built a sort of CBDC by controlling that telephone companies built. So yeah, that's also a really interesting take then. Exit question, how fast will this happen? Will the United States create a CBDC in six months, two years, five years, or never, Josh Shagalla? I don't think it'll be probably five years. Yeah. And if they don't do it properly because if they don't do it properly, the CBDCs and why they haven't been done yet is because they become a huge honey pot. You have one place where everybody's money is. If that gets hacked, the entire economy is dead. Dead in the water. You can't get it back. Who knows how much money did so and so have, I don't know, got hacked. So it's not an easy nut to crack. And so yeah, we'll see, I think five years. Five years, Dan Eve, they say this team has the feel of a startup. How soon will they get their MVP to market? Well, I think they'll probably get an MVP quite soon and be trialing it, but actually implementing it is a completely, you know, a whole different ball game. And yeah, how's it going to work with just one state doing it? I still understand that part, right? Because it's all the dollar. So how do you create a CBDC for just kind of part of the dollar? That big confuses me. So yeah, I'm thinking donkeys years. I'm hoping Bitcoin before CBDC. As everyone knows from Peter Thiel's book, zero to one startups are easy. Ben Arck, how quickly could they get this CBDC into the convenient stores and banks and malls and all the places it needs to be? Yeah, that's a very good point. I think that the speed of development will be much slower than, please, I just want it to happen in some poorer countries. And it's that bottom up anarchist revolution. It's kind of like, but by the small, poorer countries. So it's almost like, you know, if I saw a door, a doctor, it would be a top down. But ultimately on the world stage, bottom up revolution. But yeah, I think that's likely to happen is they'll just create this amazing technology and other countries will follow suit and they'll fall like dominoes. And then these big countries will be like, well, let's just use this great technology because it's better than I think we could create. As Mark Zuckerberg said, move fast and break things. We can only assume the United States government will listen to his advice. We're running out of time. Josh, Ego, do you have a prediction or a story of the week? Actually, a story of the week is that we finally, after months of R&D and to different things, we are going to go with the zero knowledge roll-ups and developing on that stack for the standard. It will be on the polygon's version of that and the Ethereum virtual machine. But it's zero knowledge, EVM, which is a really interesting tech. Yeah. And then still, the hope is to bridge across to Bitcoin to have rapid, Bitcoin being able to be used on that as well. So we'll see. Well, I like roll-ups, but usually they're made of fruit. Dan, Eve, prediction or a story of the week. I'm going to go non-crypto here, but just a personal one, which is today, what I was going to say, or yesterday, my son started, like he's like 10 months old now. And I was like, clap, clap, did that. And he did that. And now he's clapping on demand. And so that's just been, all I can sort of think and smile about for the last couple of days, I say, yeah, bit of nice stuff, rather than dreary FTX, stand back when, in fact, Frieden is crinkly ass. And his man boobs. If only we could chain the audience to clap. We could save all the fairies. Ben, Ark, prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. I'm going to try and show you something, but I don't want to dox myself. So let me do a screen share. Oh, he disabled it. He's enabled. Yeah, go, go, go. Window or screen, entire screen. Well, we're waiting for Ben. Gives a thumbs up in the chat folks. We're only 13. Yeah, thumbs up. Everybody. So I was playing around with any extension we have, which is for pegged assets using lightning. So stable sat, which is a great project they've created an extension. And with that extension, you can connect to collider, which is a exchange where you can do like high frequency trading in a fairly anonymous way. I don't understand the internet so because this stuff kind of really confuses me, but I'm going to show you an example. So I set up yesterday. I had 30,000 sats on in my wallet here and then I had 30,000 sats on collider. And I've actually got a login to collider to show you this. But it's kind of cool because look for login, I'm going to use my, and then you're out off on another bits wallet here. So I'm just going to shoot, sorry, laying. Let me scan that again. There we go. So if you can, I can't see it, can you, because I'm screen showing, but anyway, I'm, yes, so now I'm logged in. I just scanned that QR code using it on your off. If I go to Dashboard and then I go to overview, no, overview is overview. Oh, man, this is a, no, profile. Oh, we got. And what's been happening is that using this extension, it's been hedging the price of Bitcoin, I guess. And then as Bitcoin drops in price, I've actually got some sats, which appeared in my collider wallet. So I can just keep creeping that off. What it means is you can, in a non-menous way, if you're in Bitcoin in sats on lightning, you can, you can peg to, I'm thinking, peg to USD currently, but you can also peg to, to your rows as well. All this stuff super interesting. And the experimentation, which is happening with a project like standard sats and the standard IO and also Gallow with stable sats, which is a kind of fork of standard sats, is super exciting. And I just like the fact that this, there we go, you can see all these trays, which have just been happening, doing crazy, traily stuff in order for me to keep a peg to USD. I just think it's really interesting and cool, even though I don't really understand how it's happening. But yeah, hopefully this extension will be launching it pretty soon. I'm just going to like review it and then people can play with it. But I think it's, I think it's pretty powerful. It's very cool. It's very, very cool. I love it. I mean, it's, it's, this is the way that, for, for those that don't know, when you, when we had local Bitcoin's and you would have these people running around town doing massive trades. And for instance, someone would say, I need, you know, I need to sell five Bitcoin back in the day. Maybe it was, I don't know, 20 grand. Some, you would meet somewhere at a Starbucks and they would give you 20 grand and you'd give them five Bitcoin. And they are already onto the next deal of someone who wants to buy a five Bitcoin, they would go over and sell that now. The, the thing that I always thought was, but what if Bitcoin just tanks in price while they're holding that and then they go over and then they've lost money. First of all, they're making money on the spread. But second of all, they would, as soon as they bought that, they'd gone to crack and or something and they'd open a short position and that means they borrow Bitcoin from somebody. And sorry, they'd sell it if they're holding Bitcoin here. So they do the opposite of what they do. So you're always doing the opposite on the exchange to what you've got. So if you're holding Fiat and, you know, for that moment and you're ready to buy Bitcoin, because you've already made that deal, you can open a short position on crack and it's, it's a, and if you take out all that complexity by using what what Benarks here showed us, it's really wonderful because now you can hold Sats at a dollar value rather than and a Bitcoin value. And that's really useful for, yeah, for emerging economies. That want to use Bitcoin as an international settlement layer. Amazing. Very cool. Good stuff, Ben. I know so little enough to pick your brains about how it works, the mechanics of the, the, you know, shorting stuff, but yeah, thank you. Yeah. Well, shout out to Kenneth in the chat. He says he's looking for a good sci-fi book for this weekend. You can't go wrong with foundation by Isaac Asmoth, although that is part of a series. I'm not crazy about series sometimes because it's such a commitment. Also, I check out Snow Crash by Neil Stephenson or Fall Doge in Hell by Neil Stephenson or his latest termination shock, which is all about the future when global warming has taken hold and many places are now far too hot to live in. It's very interesting. Did you say Doge in hell? I think it's Doge or maybe Doge in hell, but the name is Doge. It's a great book, Fall Neil Stephenson. There's nothing to do with Doge coin. I think it'll, but it's a great book and everyone should check it out. It's very thoughtful. Stephenson's a great writer, very accessible, very fun with the exception of Cryptonomicon, which I haven't read. It's, that one's hard, but read one of the easy ones like Snow Crash or our termination, Stock or Fall. They're, they're pretty long though. Snow crash, maybe. Snow crash. But thanks again for everybody for joining us. Thanks for giving us a thumbs up down below, push and subscribe. Hello to everybody in the chat. Leave us a comment if you're watching later. And until next time, bye.