The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last ten seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best bitcoins, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Victoria Jones from Satoshi's page. Happy Friday. Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. Welcome to the Bitcoin Group Show where we talk all things Bitcoin and crypto you know. Ben Arck from LNBits. Shoo I have one. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one. Crypto industry fears a staking ban as some turn to Bitcoin. It has always been on the safe side of regulation. Yes, they're looking into crackin, shutting down their staking and coin bases also likely to shut down their staking programs as the SEC cracks down on crypto staking with Gary Gensler himself releasing a video on Twitter calling out the practice saying that it will no longer be a good deal. Victoria Jones, what do you think of the US government's attack on crypto staking? Well, the article was a bit confusing really because you know, there are two different things like yield and staking so staking one of the things they went into great detail about was staking, which is on a lot of the defi protocols with. A lot of the coins that use proof of state like Ethereum and although the government can try and ban it essentially you know that's something that's accessible well wide that people can that people can you know use any of those decentralized platforms for as well so. The situation at the moment is that it's going to make it illegal in America, but that doesn't stop it from being illegal anywhere else all you're doing is you're just depriving US citizens of access to that new technology. But if you if you read the article more carefully, it turns out that what they're actually talking about is the crackin's yield product, which is actually a bit of a different thing because when they asked for comment from the head of coin bases legal department they said that they're staking. You know, there's they're staking policies were fine so it's not clear. The article you know exactly what they're referring to but given that crackin has agreed to pay 30 million in order to get the US government off their back and close their yield product I would suggest that you know that's that's what it's probably referring to. And of course you know that's a yield product on centralized exchanges and of course you know Celsius and Celsius has come a proper for operating that I was watching a YouTube video with Simon Dixon earlier and they did a deep dive into what was actually going on with a lot of these yield products with some of these exchanges and what they found was that you know most of them were fraudulent. So it's understandable why the US might go after something like that you know for if these exchanges who are offering that kind of product have nothing to sustain themselves then it's logical it's it's not part of you know their laws and actually given what's happened to the FTFT. So it's not a token and FTX you know I think that's a reasonable thing to do but of course staking is something completely different and even if they wanted to they're going to find it harder to get on top of that I think so. So yeah I think a lot of these articles you know they kind of talk about different things and it's really confusing for people if you don't understand what's actually going on and what these terms mean so you have to read them very carefully. Because you know just one word completely changes the meaning of what's going on but those are my thoughts when I read the article. Well I think even if they are considering a staking ban it is time for Bitcoiners to take a victory lap and say once again how proof of work is better than proof of stake and that proof of stake gets consolidated in this way where the government then thinks they can regulate it and maybe they can unlike proof of work which seems almost unregulatable. Dan Eve what do you think about the attempts to block yield and staking programs from crypto exchanges. Yes I agree with Victorian that there's obviously different so you know they're staking minutes when it's termed as staking but it's just a yield product and they're staking when it's used as proof of stake and with a decentralized network arguably less decentralized than Bitcoin you know for example Ethereum. It still is going to turn into a whack-a-mole situation where people in the US are still going to stake Ethereum you know it's just the coin base and whatever are going to take it offline and other companies will will basically make more money outside of the US and they're just forcing business outside the US so. It as you mentioned it does it does you know it brings back this argument about about Bitcoin you know big proof of work being better for obviously for a number of different ways and then they also slip into the article about the. The fact that proof of stake is much more efficient than Bitcoin no thinking about this because they always forget about the use case right so if you think about the trade off the use case what it's about about like the security of Bitcoin compared to Ethereum in the other ways that Ethereum can be gained because of the the stake holders. The stake holders all the the stakers but like it's like the equivalent of a lighter going a lighter is much more efficient than a flame for her but if I was in the film aliens and I came across a load of alien eggs and I had a lighter right I'm screwed I need a flame for her so the use case in that scenario just doesn't work out and that's why Bitcoin security is much so much better. But yeah as soon as they ban it in the US there's other companies are just going to move either move their businesses or they'll they'll be other businesses are taking up that that consumer market and people will use VPNs if they say oh you can't connect to something that stinks they'll just VPN it will become another whack a mole is it is with Bitcoin and any other decentralized network. As they did when they said didn't I can't remember what branch of the government but they were saying oh you're Ethereum staking is really bad and we might go after it because 60% of staking nodes are in in the base in the US which means it's actually a US based network but it's just going to yeah it's just going to make people go outside the US use VPNs and do all the other things that people do with decentralized networks and and it really all it does it's going to showcase how good a decentralized network is compared to one moaning government who does it. It doesn't really know what they're talking about. Ben Arck is this a new bit license but this time for all of America no staking no yielding no interest for the good people of the colonies. Yeah it was a very confused article I think they've been using that chat chat I think to write their articles because being proof of stake has nothing to do with staking anything for yield. So you're going to stake a coin to stake Bitcoin stake whenever you want if it's some centralized company which is holding those coins and giving yields so they can then learn out those coins so the customers which is what I'm assuming they're using fact that the staking for yield is what they're the articles talking about but for some reason they get confused and think it's just referencing proof of stake in the Bitcoin doesn't have such a thing and it's just not true like you can stake Bitcoin and people doing people lost Bitcoin staking Bitcoin. It's a centralized way you're on some exchange where you can probably do it in some decentralized way you see like multi six and time locks and whatever else so yeah very weird confused article I and it really wants like it was written by some AI but again it's just you know it's It's a good thing if they're they're going to go after the high risk volatile behavior which causes people to lose their you know savings and lose all their money and the sort of bad behavior you get on an exchange and people like locking up their coins on exchanges and staking them is is bad behavior so it's a good thing I think that they're regulating them on a centralized exchange it would be a good thing when someone works out to it in a more efficient decentralized way which is which is sensitive resistant but we're dark well wake me up when they pass legislation forcing people to hold their own keys everybody pound that like button it's time for the exit question exit question competing against the magical Bitcoin predictor ball the greatest predictor of Bitcoin of all time better than any triangle Victoria Jones will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week well it's not doing very well at the moment is it it's taken a bit of it's it's looking a little bit scary so I'll say given how strong the move has been over the last few weeks it's probably time to take back some of those games so I think it's in the space will week I think it'll probably be down a bit further. Dan Eve continued pessimism over the crackdown on cracking and the trouble with staking and whatever else it is yield yield I think Bitcoin is is is listening to my my begging of being a lower price so I can I can dollar cost average a lot a lot a lot more profitably so I think we're going to you always hear that battle cry running into battle dollar cost average never never hear that Ben are higher or lower higher I think all this old and all stuff's going to really start getting Bitcoin of people's minds again so higher. NFTs are the key and now asking the Bitcoin predictor ball the prognosticator of prognosticators we recently had groundhog day in America I didn't even watch the movie will the price of Bitcoin be higher it is certain it is certain the ball speaks against negativity goes against the grain maybe he just wants you to dollar cost average harder moving on to issue to local bitcoins shutting down local bitcoins one. So I want to say non KYC way to meet people in bank lobbies and cafes and trade bitcoins for cash is no more the weekly trading volume on local bitcoins has slumped during the pandemic citing market conditions they have decided to close local bitcoins has been huge and so many bitcoins stories from Ian Freeman new Hampshire Bitcoin pioneer who's now facing eight counts of tax evasion and other people that we know who have been. We've gotten in trouble for using local bitcoins but it was an early way for a lot of people to get Bitcoin some of them without KYC Dan Eve what do you think about the end of local bitcoins. It's pretty sad times I think one of the first first two or three bitcoins I bought was in was in local because not that I've got them any longer I obviously was was dumb and bought shit coins instead now I was back in 2013 but yeah it was just a nice easy experience it was an exciting as well as quite thrilling like meeting six I was in London as well so I went because when I used to work there was like well I mean it's so and after and you know and I'm actually still talk to them now. The person I bought the Bitcoin off so which is which is really quite cool and so it's it's definitely an end of an era and you see all the on the tweet all the people that are really sad about it because again it was their first buying experience if that especially if that was a few years ago you know you're very likely to bought Bitcoin on local Bitcoin if you are buying it until 2013 2014. So it's one of the one of the oldest exchanges and quite surprised that they haven't kind of done a fundraiser of sorts to you know to keep it going and keep it alive because you know the brand behind it and the number of people that you see I'm sure they could you know rally the masses and and pick up you get the volume to pick up. As it as it's done like you know kind of trending now across the across the news it's not like a normal exchange has gone down it's kind of you know it's a monument not a monument is an exchange but you know I mean it's like one of the it's one that people cared about right that they had a had a kind of a lovely relationship with local Bitcoin's because especially back back then there weren't many places to get it so to get Bitcoin and the fact that you could meet people up but you know in person obviously they did you know involved and had bank transfer and stuff like that. It just had a really personal feel to it so sadly it's going and yeah it's it's obviously another another victim of a crypto of the crypto Bitcoin winter sadly. It is the end of an era Dan I'm old enough to remember a time when people said the common practice should be to use local Bitcoin's and that they would be critical of you for using coin base or any other centralized institution that you're giving up your an on in the end that you have that. Opportunity with Bitcoin to get these clean coins of course later they'd have KYC on their website the coins would be linked to your account linked to your KYC the anonymity falling a little bit more and I can also remember a time when people are using the Bitcoin ATMs in our shop that purse was running down on a mission street and their only wallet was local bitcoins they had no idea about paper wallets or other wallets or that there was such a thing is another wallet they completely. We use local bitcoins storing perhaps what may have been a fortune of Bitcoin in this strange company which now will only allow you to log into withdraw then our what do you think about the end of the era no more local bitcoins of course no one would ever post on Craigslist and meet up and trade Bitcoin's I don't never have. Yeah I mean like well like that example you gave there I'm sure they they're giving their customers I think it's a bunch of months to think 12 months to withdraw their funds off their platform but I'm sure they've got some big fat wallets on their phone back in the day where you know maybe somebody died or. And the family was in the heart of the didn't know they had this local bitcoins account and there's still some Bitcoin on there when the coins were worth much money but it's it's where they came from as you know it's a goal like they wanted people to have a peer to peer experience they wanted to try and make that happen and yes they did you know and somewhat to regulation but that was a customer base like. They realized as time went on more and more that like 99% of their customer base were happy to do a little bit of KYC in order to get their bitcoins and actually that there was a secondary market so you could go and pick local bitcoins you could you could you know meet up with a trader you could buy some Bitcoin often they could sell some you could sell some Bitcoin somebody and then you could. It's all about relationships you would build relationships with some of these people like dance as like you kept those relationships and you would still speak to them and I know a couple of I mean I didn't use local bitcoins of course but. I still I speak to a couple of I've got a couple of friends who were Bitcoin traders on local bitcoins and yeah so all about relationships and actually people would. They didn't always go through the platform so they would they would build a relationship with a trader and then you know off the books on the side they might do some personal trades with them so it was still possible to do to do to use in kind of a KYC freeway. But it I mean it started it's one of the great projects to come out of that that little bar in in Berlin which closed during COVID the room 77. York's bar and there was literally one of their meet ups and in your points out that where the guy was sat and he was sat there and you see saying I got a side here and it sees the idea for local bitcoins and he he came up with the idea in this bar and then he sat there and he developed it in this bar and it was at a time when there weren't it wasn't easy to on an offer and put a Bitcoin and there wasn't that many exchanges to access the ones which were there weren't you just really didn't want to trust them you know so. It's suddenly like I've wrapped the whole world the whole world could anyone who has an internet connection they can make an account and this thing and they can start meeting people and start and start trading Bitcoin start getting access to Bitcoin so it's an absolutely fantastic platform very start that is closing but I think. Some things don't last forever and and there are other sort of peer to peer decentralized solutions which around the corner which I'm sure will make make buying Bitcoin in that sort of way easier. As a business model I mean that it was quite expensive to buy a bit in the end it's quite expensive to buy a bit I used to recommend local bitcoins to everybody and then you know you go somewhere like Kraken and it's is so much cheaper to to buy or sell Bitcoin and you're still doing the same amount of KYC and so I will I just recommend this other platform. So I think I think a lot of that happened it was just too expensive for people on local bitcoins and then then obviously you have this winter so the and then also I think it's just they've worked for 10 years that the firmly you know placed as as part of the Bitcoin heritage part of the Bitcoin journey and story is okay for them to close shop sweep those wallets which nobody claims after 12 months go sort of beach somewhere kick back and you know I think they they they they brought something good into the world and well done to them. But yeah resting resting piece local bitcoins. I agree Ben people better get their money out of there or it'll be like the English pound the $20 bill all those pounds are suddenly worthless now. It's not just a exchanges that run off with the money Victoria many people have gotten in trouble on local bitcoins in Freeman of course another friend of mine went to actually gotten real trouble for trading too much money over the rules other things like that do you think that if local bitcoins had existed. These crimes crimes never would have happened. Well I mean I appreciate local bitcoins for the fact just the fact that it existed for the time that it did before regulation started coming in you know it's thanks to places like that that we've got any circulating Bitcoin that's non k yc and you know while there are bitcoins out there that are non k yc you know the the freedom technology is preserved. I mean obviously they've introduced k yc and a m else try and get on top of that. You know which serves a certain purpose but I think there's also something really important to be said for having some Bitcoin that isn't tarnished by that I think it's the say you know I think come third people argue that some or Bitcoin should go through a centralized exchange because very not everyone's going to be able to hold them on a hard wallet but actually. The fact that some people hold on a hard wallet is what keeps the whole system honest you know it was when it was when all the banks were subject to a central bank that the problems really started up until that point you know in Europe at the end of the. 1800s you know Europe was very prosperous you with their bank system it was flawed obviously but the only reason that they're able to fund the first world war is because all of those banks have been gathered under a central bank and you know if you are. If you apply it similarly it's the fact that we've got people who aren't subject to those centralized controls I mean over time they'll probably try and you know capture some of those loose cannons but it's the fact that those loose cannons exist and it's possible for them to exist and it's the fact that those Bitcoins can still be traded between individuals that kind of keep the whole thing accountable so even if not everybody can use those exchanges and not everyone can have k yc free Bitcoin. There is some k yc free Bitcoin and there are people holding it on hard wallets is partly what gives it its reputation and that's a very good thing so i'm very grateful that local Bitcoins existed when it did and I think you're going back to your original question with those crimes have happened well the thing is the problem with the crime is you know who who decides that it's a crime you know you know if it if it's someone's money who's to say that he's buying or selling too much I mean why is it anyone else. Business so you know that kind of calls into question a lot of the laws that are being made and how reasonable they are which is a whole other conversation that a lot of people are having right now so so no yeah maybe it did allow it but is that a bad thing i'm not so sure. And in a way like you're saying they were kind of pioneers they were heading the Bitcoin ground they were creating this non k yc world I think in many ways we're talking about the original local Bitcoins it had changed and shifted and accounts and gift cards and all kinds of other things throughout the years but at its core I think what we're talking about is kind of that new Hampshire libertarian the shire Bitcoin people trading amongst themselves and like you say creating the Bitcoin. And like you say creating these k yc bitcoins and that it's sad that bitcoins lost that but in many ways it's already been gone you know for years and years before this final closing happened like this isn't you know real thing is more of a thing that's already been lost and I think that goes well into the exit question in Freeman early Bitcoin pioneer free talk live not pictured here one of the so called crypto six has been accused of tax evasion and money laundering. Using the local bitcoins website as well as his own Bitcoin kiosks similar to Bitcoin ATMs but apparently with an with a wallet inside them which makes that different than a Bitcoin ATM I guess he's on trial for more than 10 million dollars in laundering and it doesn't look good. Dan Eve what do you think about Ian Freeman and his trial and how this kind of intertwines to the end of the local Bitcoin era. Well he's one of the you know the main kind of you know early early stage Bitcoin libertarians and the fact that he's on trial I mean obviously he has there's a few things about the case where he said like I don't pay tax and don't want to pay tax and tax sucks you know so he's basically being done also for tax evasion kind of like how they got alcohol right. But obviously different completely different scale and so it's sad to see like such an early Bitcoin or in such a pioneer and you know go go down or potentially go down it looks like it's that you know that the access swinging pretty hard and a few of his sort of close. Close acquaintances have turned on him as well in the trial to give evidence against him so that's really not looking not looking too good but ultimately it goes back to this thing like you know local Bitcoins isn't the bad thing in this scenario even if you were to say that what Ian Freeman did was wrong local Bitcoin isn't the bad thing local Bitcoins is a tool it's something that people use it's not the you know it's like saying it's exactly the same saying. Well the internet's bad because someone used it for bad things like no you can use it but you know you can use it for good or use it for evil and someone chose to use it for good but but someone saying it is evil so it gets even more complicated but no it's yeah the trial started in December right but there's there's not really been much news about it since so. Be interested to see how that pans out but it seems like they've kind of you know he's going to probably get done for at least tax evasion of sorts in some way i'm not sure about the money you're doing. It's likely too cold in New Hampshire for the trial to continue the wheels of justice run slowly in the winter Ben arc what do you think about Ian Freeman and his trial and the trouble that he got from that darn website local Bitcoins. Yeah I mean no you can't. She's never going to podcast and say I don't pay my taxes and you shouldn't pay a taxes and I've got millions and I'm using this Bitcoin thing don't pay a taxes because they're going to get you it's the same with McAfee that's why they went after him he just he's too loud about is not paying taxes all you know and the only thing certain a death and taxes just pay him just it sucks I know whatever but you're not going to be able to do any good from jail alright but anyway unless obviously you're going to assume something really good. Really horrendous that maybe resiled them but I mean it's just it's a fight you're not going to win like they'll make a matter of you and this is what's happening with this guy because actually it turns out that he was a very responsible Bitcoin trader salad and he would you know if he thought someone was going to use use their service his service his personal trading service for something dodgy then he he didn't trade with them and actually that happened they put a there was an undercover copy try to try to try to get you know what I mean. I can't be trying to try to try to make a trade with him and and I think I suppose alluded to he was going to use it use his service for something dodgy and then Freeman just blank out refute refused to to to work with him so there's evidence there that he was as responsible as anyone could hope for him to be even KYC this customers he's going through the local Bitcoin's platform and he KYC this customers. But yeah it's this is just this the issue was the tax thing and that's why they're going after him and the trying to throw him I imagine a lot of these charges will be dropped because actually his defense is very good and they're just they just keep saying the same things they just keep saying that he was as responsible as anyone could be trading and. The anyone who was like these one example I think some old lady shot load of money and then the person stole that money we like tried to move it through Bitcoin or something through this Freeman guy and Freeman's defense law very rightly pointed out that you know where's the bank manager who let this woman's bank account I think it's a couple hundred thousand dollars be emptied in a matter of a couple of days why was there no checks and balances there you know. So yeah it's it's a good luck to him I really hope you know he gets through it and I hope to drop all the charges it's probably pretty fucked over the tax stuff but yeah hopefully I drop the rest of it and you won't do that much time and they still got enough money probably to pay those tax fines and get that claim and sort of fixed good luck to him. The free states projects famous Robin Hood parking program where they pay other people's parking meters now reminds me of Ian Freeman here Victoria probably the very person who created your non KYC Bitcoin is now on trial for it is it Robin Hood Prometheus Cicifus. Are you trying to equate Ian Freeman to one of these Greek Greek myths. He wears sandals he has dirty feet he's been accused of liking underage women I think he has a lot in common with the ancient Greeks. Why not. Yeah. Well sadly I'm not that familiar with who this guy is I've not read it this is the first time I've heard about him so it's difficult for me to tell. And also my knowledge of Greek myths is fairly sketchy as well so it's probably not I'm not the best qualified to ask this question. But yeah I mean you know the world is the world is the world and you know they're always going to be outliers and we need the outliers because that's what makes us a creative society. And you know he was doing innovative things and and following his what he felt was best but I agree you know going. Publicly saying you're not going to pay taxes asking for trouble you know I think if you want to challenge that that's definitely a collective effort otherwise just putting a. A target on your head aren't you really so um so yeah you know I admire his um courage but not his stupidity. I agree I think there no tax thing is a bit like sycifus who pushes the rock up the hill only to have the rock roll back down and then he gets to push it up again. Exit question to the exit question really quick Danny will Ian Freeman go to jail predict the future yes or no. I think unfortunately yes and just want to add on what Ben mentioned about the fact that he rejected the dirty money the worst part about that story from what I understand is that they basically after they rejected them they went underhandly and tricked him via faking different profiles to being able to transact with him and then went ha you transact him with error in personal something like that and like you like how's that fair like you know he said no he's you could tell that his morals were there so I'm not sure if he's going to be able to do that. So you know he actually made yeah I don't want to tell the details but a friend of mine had a similar situation where he was offered too much money and he said no I can't take that that's over the limits and then they sent it to him anyway and you know he went down for it anyway so it does seem like a lot of entrapment in these very important money laundering cases that are going on. So Dan will he go to jail. Oh yes that was it yes so yes unfortunately yeah so that's the end of the conversation. And our yes or no Al Capone goes to jail. Got to pay taxes, definitely taxes. Can you go to jail? He's going to die. Hopefully not you know for jail for a short period of time and then death along a long way away but it's going to happen. And killing killing Ian with Shakespeare. Victoria are we united to agree poor Ian's going to jail. Well I remember hearing a long time ago that there's a difference between a criminal case and a civil case and apparently not paying your taxes is a civil problem so unless he's done something criminal not necessarily he might get a big fine but would he necessarily go to jail so you know as I say there's first time I've heard the story I don't know the intricacies. But if the only thing he's done wrong is not pay his taxes and he pays a whopping great fine then maybe he won't. I think much like SPF all he's guilty of is youthful exuberance. They saw a beautiful market of Bitcoin ATMs and thousands and thousands of dollars and they thought hey why should we pay taxes or follow any regulations we can do whatever we want. And unfortunately that's coming to bear as Ben said you've got to pay your taxes and again that's a huge debate that we won't be having on this show moving on. World Crypto Network dot com has more than 3,000 and 31 videos that's three months 14 days and 12 hours straight without sleeping. It's been nine years one month and 25 days since our first video you can check them all out at worldcrypto network dot com for free free. Issue 3 with more than 11,000 NFTs mint minted to Bitcoin our Bitcoin Maxi's coming around the Bitcoin Ordinals project continues to mint NFTs onto the Bitcoin blockchain including a full copy of crypto punks all 10,000 images copied and reissued by random people now collecting money for other people's work which seems to be a theme on. Bitcoin Ordinals Ben arc what do you think about NFTs on Bitcoin again this time taking up block space in the witness. I mean you just can't do anything about it so opinions that kind of mute you know like that it's people can put whatever they want to spend the money they can put whatever they want to want the Bitcoin blockchain. I kind of like it in a way like the the when Bitcoin finally gets around to an NFTs it's actually it's not just a you know a signature like a city signature signing some picture it's it's actually in an air like it's burnt sold like inscribed as they say into the into the Bitcoin blockchain is filling those blocks up. It's funny because you get people like loose just you and you who are complaining about it and saying that you know. If the waste of space I know if that block should be small and it's like well you kind of got your your wish like there's less room for transactions now and fill in full of pictures so effectively there are a little bit smaller aren't they just you know. But no there's a really good thread by wax ring who's he's on Twitter I don't think but he does a lot of the Bitcoin dev stuff and works on a bunch of I think works on a bunch of Bitcoin libraries and wax ring how to very good point he says there's nothing you can do about it. Yes it's absolutely pointless complaining about apart from obviously you can voice your you should be using blocks for this that's fine. He said the thing the only thing which was worrying about the ordinal's project but again you can't really do anything about it but it's just a worrying. Like side effect or worrying. Property of the ordinal stuff is that you can like trace satoshi's and you have more trace ability within in the blockchain and in. They could mean that a government would you know require that if people using Bitcoin in the future and that's something we should be actively challenged and we should try and figure out a way of stopping but people putting Share the blockchain whatever they can plug it up and you know I think like yeah 11000 is an incredible number and people paid for those 11000 pictures or 11000 well I suppose it could be anything couldn't it just because in this case it could be JavaScript code and all sorts of stuff but people have paid to put that data on there so clearly there is people interested in it and I think it's it's going to be the thing which kind of gets this next you know. Phone where we Bitcoin cycle started is the NFT stuff on Bitcoin and then it will you will switch to you know more interesting things but I think it feels like it's kind of getting the Bitcoin word out there and people are interested in normal people are interested in so. Victoria Jones NFTs on Bitcoin is this a good thing. Well I think what strikes me as interesting right now about this is it's difficult for us to really see the long term consequences of it because Bitcoin we've only been around Bitcoin for like 13 years you know if you think that if Bitcoin carries on and it takes off in the way we anticipate it will take off in 100 years this is the historical record and it's an immutable historical record. And there lots of rumors going around at the moment that you know the history that we know and understand to be our history there are actually a number of flaws in it and of course they always say history is written by the victors so you know how accurate is our distant history and of course you know we've now got an opportunity for that history to be written on to the blockchain and into our money so yeah that's an intriguing idea I think and one that's potentially valuable. So but of course you know there's been lots to bait over the kind of images you could have mean some people have been commenting on the fact that you could have pornographic images on the blockchain and then of course you're immediately making anyone who runs a node of criminal because you're harboring. These images, especially if they're very unsavory images. So you know so that becomes an issue although even if it does become illegal how are you going to shut down 130,000 nodes or however many you've got right now. So you know so there are some interesting philosophical questions that go along with this and I think the third point I'd like to make is the fact that you know what we really need Bitcoin for is to be a new form of money and of course although it's very exciting to try these new and different things on Bitcoin you know what we don't know is what we could potentially do that might break it or you know cause a problem that's unresolvable. Because so much of this is new it's never been tried before in history and you know as Mark Twain says it's not what you don't know that gets you into trouble it's what you know for sure that just ain't so and there's so much that we don't know about how this is going to pan out and what could potentially cause a problem in the future that you know it's tricky it's tricky. So yeah those are my thoughts on the subject. Dan Eve we're talking about ordinals two weeks in a row it seems like early NFT pioneers like Curio cards rare pepets and spells of Genesis were right about something huh. Well even even like how Finney writes and suggesting well he didn't say using Bitcoin for it but the idea of cryptographic proof of a of an asset. So it's you know for all the die hard Bitcoiners especially ones that think the how Finney was was is Satoshi yeah they're they're probably causes a bit of cognitive dissonance right to see the potential you know big big guy was actually into NFTs in some sort of way. But the cool thing is that the fact they've got to do because obviously do when it came out was like lesson x megabytes right so that you run doom on Bitcoin essentially and there's even like a site where you can actually go and play doom it's like a primitive version of it. But like Victoria said about the usage of the blockchain to store indecent images and there was I think as early as 2016 2015 2016 when there was an article about I think that elliptic. The company elliptic where they were they were partnering up to make sure that Bitcoin can't be used as a child porn storm storing you know it was the word impenetrable my impenetrable immutable storage for indecent images like that so. And that was back before obviously you could literally store an image on it so now you can actually store images and those things kind of those articles reignited in around 2019 about the fact that even though you're not storing an image of whatever it is this this awful on Bitcoin. You could be storing a reference of it to some to some extent and therefore that could make you know holding that image or holding having the version of the blockchain mean that you're distributing child porn in some way so that's obviously really bad. But what's cool I think it's quite funny about that not that part what's funny about something else so all together because my notes will miss but is the fact that like yeah everyone's saying oh. So it's a separate to tap root is going to make oh you know it's going to be defy but done right you know it's going to be defy but done right and what they got actually was nft's done right has been pointed out you're not storing a reference in the image or a hash of it you're storing the actual image on the blockchain so they wanted defy done right they got JPEG's done right which which makes me chuckle a bit but good point also about the fact that Luke dashy wanted like smaller blocks and now he's getting them to a certain extent. But the fact is the block you know obviously it does boost transact the cost of a transaction so don't know if anyone's noticed but the cost of a Bitcoin transaction has been about $1 to $2 recently so that's been that does obviously impact on the you know on on people even wanted to sell. So you know send small amounts but the fact that you can now actually immortalize text images code whatever on Bitcoin I think makes it extremely exciting and you're not just you're not just storing a hash of it or a reference of it you're actually storing the entire thing on the blockchain so. Pretty exciting and it's good for the fee markets especially given that there's still the argument ongoing is to will the fee market be enough to keep Bitcoin alive once the block rewards go. Exit question Ben arc will the Bitcoin developers change the way that Bitcoin works to end Bitcoin ordinals. No they won't be able to mean like I'm with the name server stuff back in the day when it's actually didn't like that and it's a name coin that was possible but now it's just not possible there's enough people who like it and if people people this is the point of having you know essentially resistant ledger decentralized ledger is that people can put whatever they want on it and I personally feel that it's a complete misnomer to think that on chain should be used for money can have a scale it's never going to be easy. It's never going to be able to be used for money but it is a great thing for pegging stuff to and inevitably in the future blocks will be full and you know they will be used efficiently but when it comes to the money side of it I think that will be an off chain experience unless you're sending vast sums of money then of course you know use a user Bitcoin on chain transaction but yeah the Bitcoin blockchain is going to evolve and it's not what you can do about it and the developers couldn't couldn't. developers couldn't couldn't stop this behavior there's 11,000 people want to use it that way so you know we're not 11,000 people but you know there's been 11,000 transactions which we're willing to spend money using Bitcoin this way it's not going to stop it. Victoria Jones will the developers shut ordinals down. Well considering I'm probably like the least developer person on this on this show about a Ben's expertise on this subject and say it's highly unlikely. Dan Eve we'd have nice empty blocks if it worked for those kids in their NFTs. Well doesn't this go down to the argument of will the miners like vote it in and if the miners are making money off fees then are they really going to say no I could. Game theory right it's the simple free market in moving so they've got to convince a lot of people about the moral side of not storing bit you know images on Bitcoin versus the monetary side which unless face it you can you know miners obviously could turn around and say I'm secure you know I'm mining to secure the Bitcoin blockchain but they're ultimately mine. For profit right that's what they're what they're doing so if they can get a little profit but just a few other quick things like they someone said that well only if every transaction had had a JPEG it's only 200 gigabyte a year which is actually really quite small especially you know the size of hard drawings I just love that bad right. And also also just funny that seeing the turn of you know every single like little event that happens you see you see a little maximum is turn round and so suddenly like you know there's quite a few now that are going well I left it whether we got an FTE or aetherium or awful terrible now but I'm going well they're not actually that bad you see now that they're on Bitcoin. So it's interesting to see all these people kind of you turn and say actually now that we've seen it done on Bitcoin which is making it done better of course let's let's face it's stored in mortally on the chain yeah we're seeing a lot of you turn so I think it's kind of good for the ecosystem and obviously all the events that are now that are now actually running a Bitcoin node that's really positive. So many people quoting how finny all of a sudden to defend NFTs that never happened before I don't know they better watch out if they put an image of Muhammad on the blockchain that might be a mistake there's all kinds of other target points this could be a whole new attack on Bitcoin Bitcoin carries child porn. That's all that chat that I mean that but tick the store we've covered that story like three or four times this where. What wasn't the child porn like ASCII before like you put in the little the button still there's still more horrible messages like the you know any kind of thing in there any kind of horrible text but now horrible images too we're working on video next moving on to issue four the bank of England and the treasury think the United Kingdom is likely to be a threat to the world. To need a digital currency the telegraph reports yes the error of CBDC's central bank digital currencies may now be upon us Victoria Jones what do you think about the bank of England's announcement that they should pretty much make a copy of Bitcoin maybe be a little bit more favorable to their interests. I mean can there be a worse story I mean on the one hand I mean people have been discussing this for this for a while now you know the idea of CBDC's I mean I remember in 2017 the UK government was very excited about the use of distributed ledger technologies mean they've got every single area you know they're already looking into that but of course you've had the on the bank of England and you barely. Who said what one or two years ago that anyone who invested in Bitcoin be prepared to lose all of your money but oh no now they're still now they need a central bank digital currency you know it's like as long as you have our currency it's okay but if you're investing in anything else then it's not and even in the article they say you know we need to address it otherwise big tech is going to be taking over money it's like yeah that's the point that's what we're trying to do. So yeah so the I don't know I think I can well imagine that that's what they think the solution is I mean I was listening to a podcast with someone who works in property the other day and he was clearly talking to his friend who works in banking and and the friend was saying well you know the solution is going to be CBDC's and then we won't be able to write off private debt but we able to write off country debt and that will you know reset reset the. You know the monetary policy of the world and it's like dude. You know the reason why we have a wealth inequality is because the way in which the laws are set up and if we have a CBDC and the way in which I mean I've got no confidence that the laws you would set up around CBDC's is going to be any better at all and of course if you write off the debt of countries you know one person's debt is someone else's assets so you know i'm sure they're going to all the people who own the asset is going to have something to say about it so I actually made a comment at the bottom of the bottom of the. Video say you serious you know if this is if this is your only solution then seriously we are doomed but that's not going to stop them from you know fighting that battle and trying to convince us that's what the way it goes i'm absolutely convinced now that you know Bitcoin is a solid is is and how long it's been around it's the CBDC's not going to succeed they're dead in the water you know they're not they can't even you know produce their own you know their own data and they're going to be able to do that. You know produce their own you know their own technology they're not that good at producing computer software themselves I mean it's like they paid millions to upgrade the NHS. You know software and then completely failed with it so you know what are the chances that they're going to create a successful CBDC I mean if they create one it's probably going to be on a theory in which exists already and you know already aware of you know what the flaws are there. So how it's less decentralized than Bitcoin so the argument makes no sense but while they can get away with it because most people don't understand these things they will try and get away with it and of course it whips people into a frenzy and the one way you can tack and it's just like well do you really want to wallet that the government owns and they decide that if you haven't spent it by the end of the week they can empty it or you know if you don't if you've been a naughty boy this week and they decide to you know put a put a black mark on your wallet at the end of the week. You know I mean it's the kind of thing that wouldn't happen tomorrow but if you allow this kind of thing to progress that's easily where we could end up because people don't pay attention and they have very little ability to influence the government over these minuscule rules anyway. So the whole idea of CBDC is completely dystopian you know Bitcoin's I think whoever Satoshi was it's almost like he knew that was their plan and then they're going to be a lot more powerful. They're plan and then this was his answer to it to try and save us from all of that and of course you know the discussion is finally getting down to the nuts and bolts or what it's all about but still hard for people to understand so I kind of look a scant at the article going seriously but of course it's only us who've been discussing and learning about Bitcoin for five years you understand some of these issues in depth and understand what it's bad but most general public have no idea and they're so easily convinced this especially if some of the push voice who sounds like they're from the bank of England. tries to tell them this is what we need to do next. It's just like okay this is the fight is. So yeah it's going to be interesting few years I think. I do love the idea that if you do it with Bitcoin you're going to go bank drop but if we do it with essential currency and we're going to write off debt it's a genius move it's great to see that shift quickly but they were very clear in the first amendment the bank said that she'll have no other gods before me. So you got to watch out for that Dan if I always thought it was CBGB's you know they're going to bring back talking heads blondie the hormones new wave music why can't they do that instead of CBDC's. Because of control power manipulation all the bad was that were associated with the central bank having more power to do crazy stuff like you know as Victoria said but look you know integrating into some sort of social credit system where it becomes this black mirror type episode and you say something mean about Rishi soon and then like suddenly you go to the shops and you can't buy your groceries or whatever. Like it's not actually that is really not that far fetch right if they if they got their kill switch on your account then it can be done they can do credit cards right but there's just less of a kind of relationship. With the central bank and a credit card company whereas if if the central bank owns the the infrastructure that actually creates those payments then they can they can do basically what they. What they want and as again is Victoria picked up on the Bank of International Senate sentiment said that CDBC's are needed to modernize finance and ensure big tech does not take control of money and whilst I agree that big tech specifically shouldn't what the actual cryptocurrencies do is allow the people to control the money. And you know the you could argue that big tech is at least more decentralized than a government is in in in terms they've got more variety people of working for them then the government but regardless having the people control the money sounds like a much better solution which is why Bitcoin was invented because of all the the debil tabling of central banks there's not really reduced much much goods. The arrogance of the Bank of England saying well you know Bitcoin's terrible but if we do if we do a digital currency we can do it much better and again as Victoria pointed about the NHS and in most recently the biggest one was like the wasn't the billions they spent on on the track and tracing or whatever like in the contracts they just completely got floundered is just insane so to have that it's so arrogant to think that you know this small this small collection of minds that are. And I just put it in place rather than people that contribute things and what are the only the meaningful contributions actually get put in from from around the world that should be what's controlling our monetary system not just a bunch of people are employed and so you actually get more fun enough you get more diversity doing that way you get more walks of life you're contributing to this this this new type of money and I don't I don't want to use the the slippery slope thing is I've always seen it as a logical fallacy but. But right there is a but there's in certain contacts context it is quite true you know like this small this small overreach becoming bigger and bigger and there was a quote I can't remember I can't create it but it's like you know nazi's didn't happen I hate to do the call to the Nazi which is another logical policy whatever but anyway the nazi's didn't happen overnight it was small incremental things that eventually led to it and the more and more control you give governments with with you know even if you. And we had the we're seeing now with the what they call it the environmental lockdowns that they'll do they'll be doing so you know you won't be able to travel outside of scum thought unless it's on a Tuesday evening all that crap like it's it's it does seem like it's kind of snoopy and in these conspiracy theories they they do kind of some of these things that are turning out quite true but ultimately letting a central bank. Or caused all this hassle with inflation and all the crazy business since they took away gold as gold standard to control money again it's like you know what's that saying that George Bruce said once very famously full full of man once full of man twice or something or other like that but yeah basically don't be an idiot twice don't let them have our money twice. Uh for me want to shame on you yeah for me twice shame on me I'd prefer the George Bruce. Oh yeah. Won't get fooled again a full man get fooled again. We've got to make the pie higher like that saying sometimes it's not a slippery slope but you're just standing on a greased hill and black mirror that's some real horror that's like some scary stuff there I'm afraid to watch that remember that episode with a social score and the woman got excluded from everyone and they voted her down and she brought them donuts and they're like she's trying to you know buy our love voter down more and all of that's like recommend for a dream it's too scary to watch but Ben arc CBDC's it's a cool acronym you can trust it right. Yeah I get the sentiments I get the rhetoric as well but and for a battle will to exist we need Bitcoin that's just a given we need it needs to be a queen needs to exist. And it's that the tools of freedom so people have this the group you know this free money free and open source money which they can move to if they need to. But I think different people different needs if you look at the 2008 financial crisis and if you look at ice sensibility to buy themselves out by money production which Greece didn't have Greece was part of a barrel because they were in the euro zone. Ice them were much better off and they're basically the exact same financial positions at the beginning of the crisis and isems over to be themselves out you can't. Apply the monetary needs for different countries and assume that that even even if there is this like utopian concept where everyone uses the same money or the same the same thing is a medium of exchange. As soon as there is a great pressure in the country they'll produce money because they need to create fiscal stimulus and they need to create wealth and they need to keep the the wheels of the economy moving so this Austrian idea that people will just suffer for you know a decade they can end up with more efficient markets is just nonsense. But what we do have is the power now for countries if they do opt into building I don't want to you know like a CBDC is obviously essential central bank digital currency I think what would what was better to think of is a is a sovereign sovereign currency digital currency or sovereign digital currency or something an SDC maybe which is. You know like the bridge pound say on big bridge pound as a digital currency but not something which the central bank control something which the people in bring control and then they can. Have it work for them in the way so you want it to work for but absolutely built up a Bitcoin and this is I imagine the intermediate. Part of Bitcoin's journey which pulls in all the wars liquidity and then eventually makes Bitcoin so incredibly stable than why wouldn't anyone just use on the base layer but I don't really get there unless you have stable meeting this of exchange people are going to use Bitcoin for that and I would rather those things be built on Bitcoin rather than built by some central bank or built on something like a theory and it's it's an inevitable next phase of currencies that we're going to have a vast digital currencies and yes you have got Bitcoin there is an option but currently it's stability is so terrible. And certain points in time couldn't different countries need you know different currents if they need then their soft currency requirements or the requirements the country needs of their soft currency changes independent from other other countries so I think all this stuff will be built on Bitcoin essentially what I'm trying to say is all this stuff will be built on Bitcoin the central banks are terrible at building these sorts of things they won't be able to do it all these things will be on Bitcoin probably by poor nations to begin with which will be great there are Salvador's of this world. They'll make the Salvador dollar on Bitcoin and then when we get some decent recipes for voting such things then all the other countries will follow suit and then all these big countries is trying to do with their city central banks will stop doing that and they'll do it in a way which the general people control probably through democratic process like some sort of federated thing or so I don't know but anyway they're there yeah I don't think it's just going to be Bitcoin and nothing else not for the immediate into the immediate future or the future or the future. The immediate future maybe in the distant future but yeah. Exit question everyone knows how easy it is to program your own Bitcoin and blockchain just look at Facebook Libra or the IBM blockchain how soon will the UK have a CBDC will it be within three years five years or never Victoria Jones. I have no confidence in their ability to build one you mean you've got how many developers working on Bitcoin I mean the bank of England's almost bankrupt they can't afford any developers to to build anything remotely credible and given their chat record forget it I just don't believe it. If you had enough monkeys and they were typing for enough time they just might type out hamlet maybe that's why the invented chat GPT so they could help the bank of England create their digital currency. World's first currency written by an AI Dan evil it be three years five years or never. Well I think it might be relatively soon the next few years and the reason is because although I have no confidence in their ability to build like Victoria saying I do have is lots of confidence that they think they can build it and they'll do so anyway and they'll be like go in all guns are blazing and do something silly that they'll regret. And arc three years five years never and do you think the currency would be more widely accepted if it featured like beetles or little yellow submarine character something like that. I think that they've just reprused but the bank of England is just produced a report saying that it's likely at the end of the decade they might make they might make a central digital currency central bank just for currency. So if it's taking them this long to just make that report I'm not sure they're going to get a few of us is anytime soon to actually make the software if they do actually to be fair the UK government do have some pretty good website like their web polls are pretty good compared to another you know so. You know if you ever deal with like America's countries governments websites they're awful and then the UK they're refreshingly good so they have a good tech team there whether they can turn the hand to producing central bank just currency I don't know one I want to example I want to give actually is I reached out to cano Tyler and cano Tyler is a e cash project which has been running for like 10 years and they specifically pitch their academic so they've done loads of you know pay produced loads of papers those are just. Good scientific work on e cash and they specifically pitch it trying to make e cash in a way which has like checks on fraud and stuff and can be. You can use it you know so you can't be used by criminals other stuff and they've been pitching it directly central banks banks for a decade they've done great work I had to call with my chat to them when we were building the cash you e cash and fed him in with the Fed him in stuff as well. I was like boy this project has been around for 10 years they've probably done a lot of cool things and got a lot of wisdom to impart which they did but them trying to pitch that to the legacy world they distinct care like no one cares and no one cares about their project none of these central banks care about their projects no one's interested in what they've got to say and they're like the world's you know thought leaders on this type of technology of the sorts of technology which should be employed to make a central bank just for currency so. Yeah it's still going to happen anytime soon there's very minimal you know people yeah. The answer is never the United Kingdom digital currency will be written by Microsoft yes Microsoft and when they put John Lennon Jen Lennon on the British pound he'll truly be bigger than Jesus we're running out of time Victoria Jones do you have a prediction or a story of the week go ahead. I don't have a prediction my story of the week is I'm currently working on an article talking about CBDC's ironically as we're discussing it today the title is going to be digital money versus digital law so Bitcoin being the money and Ethereum being the law so I'll go into that in more detail so yeah if you're interested in that you know can sign up to my newsletter on my website so she's page.com and hopefully that'll be out soon when I get round to it. As everyone knows CBGV's originally started out as a bluegrass club o m fug it was like fun bluegrass music and later the talking heads their bones blondie so much to look forward when they bring back new wave music Dan Eve you have a prediction or a story of the week. My story of the week was that I've been to obviously many crypto conferences and especially during the market the pool markets they're pretty extravagant but went to ice the eye gaming one in the Excel Center in London this week and wow it's pretty crazy like the whole Excel Center absolutely like round really cool conference lots of crypto companies there so from payment from payment companies to kind of crypto casino type places so like they make get you know games like you know slot machines based on crypto punks and things like that which is really quite cool and one huge bonus was that I got a random text message while I was there for him Ben and so I got to meet up with Ben and have a little mooch around ice and then a few drinks after so it was nice to catch up with Ben in person another cool conference. I think the key to going to conferences these days is that their web 3 there's nothing but money in web 3 and of course as everyone knows CBGB in New York City was torn down and replaced with John Varvados a fancy upscale clothing company frequented by people like Howard Stern Ben arc do you have a prediction or story of the week. Yeah talking money like when we were there is one of those conferences you go to not like you go to a non Bitcoin conference and you think Bitcoin's like too big you know and it's it can possibly grow anymore and then you go to like a conference in some other industry and then you realize our little industries like this to do a thing and then there's got this gambling sector and then it it bitcoins infinite room to grow makes you feel abolished particularly because they're all basically like you know tending towards using Bitcoin more more like Dan said there's a lot of heavy heavy on the old word of the old use of the word crypto but clearly there's interest in people like using Bitcoin and these are the whatever you call them in their gambling industry but yeah it's cool it's cool to capture it with down and I was there looking at bill acceptors because I was no one is to because I just picked a bill acceptor for the ATM the lightning ATM and I just used that and then everyone's been using that and I'm like is this the right one is the best one so I went and I realized that they had all these like slot machines and stuff and because it's like a gambling expo there's also like people interested in hardware so bill acceptors coin max those sorts of things sorts of things being to put into slot machines and you know change machines and all those sorts of things so I was looking at that found some cool bill acceptors found a really great one which I said cheap and small easy to program so I'm probably going to switch to that. But yeah it was great that's it and we're going to copy done same was the ice ice 2023 quite a spectacle although they didn't get the moment the memo about booth girls they had loads of booth girls and I thought did feel do you feel like I was in the right decade but I guess that's the gambling industry they don't care about these sorts of things you know people's modern concerns or whatever that's it's good it's great. It's super bowl weekend in the United States of course we've got our all united kingdom panel here so I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you who's going to win it's okay if you just pick by mascot who you think in an actual fight it's the Kansas city chiefs versus the Philadelphia Eagles Victoria chiefs or Eagles. What are their mascots. A chiefs and Eagles like the bird Eagles or the Native American chiefs which I'm glad you asked that question and glad you asked that question. I was about to ask you know what's going to ask it. I'll go for the Eagles because they're majestic. All right Eagles Dan are you going with the Eagles or the chiefs. I'm going for the Eagles one of the coolest bands ever although it's probably not the Eagles that are the mascot is the act. Oh that's my question was is it the actual Eagles or is it's you know an eagle. I like the idea that it's the band it's like the anti-lap basket so I just take the F and Eagles man Ben Arck Eagles or chiefs. I reckon it's the the the the chiefs because I made the headscarf with the Eagles feathers so they're going to obviously win. We've got it we've got a mixed panel I'm going to go with the Eagles. I'm going to root for a good game and I'm mainly going to enjoy the commercials and eat a bunch of food so that's super ball over here but it's probably on it like the middle of the night for you guys. So you'll learn about it later and then the commercials will haunt you for months afterwards as Pepsi and Budweiser and others spend tons of money on very creative hopefully creative and hopefully funny and entertaining commercials because otherwise you have no choice because they're going to be on anyway so. And I just think was it last year that we literally last year that we had FTX like the big super ball commercials were were the crypto ones right there's FTX there was Larry the Larry is Larry David the you know that was brilliant actually it's listen to come out of FTX that was really good. Om Brady all of the advertisements I'm told this year there are zero crypto advertisements so we have gone up and we have gone down on a side note I'm predicting that one of the major advertisements will make fun of crypto. So I believe we will be mentioned but in an incredibly action I don't have any inside information that's personal belief but yeah we'll see how it goes rooting for a good game in the chat let us know who you think is going to win right Eagles or chiefs and then later you'll be able to look back and get absolutely nothing but maybe we're. So there will be a little imagine if like all the the adverts were just central banks laughing at crypto currency. I forget exactly. Exactly. I can be good. Absolutely. Absolutely. I see. The absolute classic in ads was after the dot coms and it showed like an empty town and like a tumble weed going by and all this dust and there is like the pets dot coms sock mascot is just on the ground like sad and like if they do something like that for crypto it'll absolutely fantastic it's had the people lost money and all that but what an amazing thing it could be but yes it's go over laughs when you go over laugh. I just expected the super bowl this weekend thanks to everybody for joining us give us a thumbs up down below subscribe if you haven't already we've been doing these shows for I don't know nine or 10 years now so there's a lot more shows on world crypto network dot com you can check out. But until next time.