The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. Greatings, folks. John Schugalla from the standard.io. Hey, folks. And I am Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one Bitcoin defies bad tidings to register its best week since 2021. The biggest digital currency is up more than 11% so far this week. And there's open interest in Bitcoin futures on the CME. It's increasing. Dan Eave, what do you think about Bitcoin's best week since 2021? Well, I'm not going to lie. I'm disappointed because I was kind of hoping it would just keep on going down so I could help the dollar cost average. But it's obviously just good news for the industry, showing how Bitcoin is a bit res, you know, has been always resilient in all these turbulent times, all these, this infighting we've got going on with Genesis and Gemini and the FTX collapse and all these other companies that are feeling the brunt of the bear market. So it's always a nice thing to see Bitcoin's price going up. Even if you don't own any, you're happy to just kind of see it go up unless unless you're one of those miserable folks who just always wants to see it go down. But ultimately, we're still not through this bear market. I don't think we're still over 12 months away from just over 12 months away, right? About 14 months away from March 2024, harvining. So in theory, things should start to kind of pick up around about, you know, around about now. Historically, January hasn't been the best month for Bitcoin though. So this may be a kind of a dead cat bounce, as they say in the triangle trading world, you know, kind of or I don't know, but something like that. Anyway, I don't know the terminology. It's all astrology to me. So yeah, I know if the triangle is in the side of tourists, then Bitcoin will go up and if it's not, it goes down and all of that fund that brunt, that goes down. But nobody really knows. So just ignore the price and focus on the cool stuff that's happened. Of course, it comes from the old saying, even a dead cat could bounce, even a dead cat. So a very bad stock could bounce like a dead cat. Josh Shagalla is that what this is? Or is this, as Dan mentioned, the Bitcoin halving already starting to have an effect? Yeah, I mean, I don't think this is a dead cat bounce because dead cat bounces usually happen after a really shocking decrease, like a very fast decrease and then it'll bounce. This has been sort of fluffy and I mean, of course, the FTX news did render a massive, a massive down, downplay in the market, which then caused a little bit of a, just basically, not even a dead cat bounce. It was just sort of moving sideways for the last sort of whatever it's been now, month and a half, two months. But I feel that the market was already heading into springtime just before the FTX collapse. So we were looking at winter was sort of starting to thaw out, which was a long crypto winter. But generally, what happens the higher the market, the longer the crypto winters. So and this is kind of what's happened historically. We've seen a market pump. It's then gone sideways. It pumps higher next time sideways as longer, higher next time sideways longer. And so that correlation is, I think, happened as well. And just before the FTX collapse, we saw the spring coming and now the spring has started to take off again. I feel that the whole halving stuff is kind of priced in. Should be anyway, because we know what becose worth in terms of how many there are. Sorry, not what's worth, but we know how many there will be already. I just think we're heading all the weekends of left the building, basically, that's what it comes down to over that long period. Anyone that's weak enough has left and now we're buying. The question is, does everyone know about the have an accident? Certainly we know about the have an accident, but maybe not everyone. Now it's your chance. Even you at home can play in the chat, predict against the greatest predictor in all time of all of Bitcoin, the Bitcoin predictor ball. I believe said it was going to be higher last week. Dan, are you going to go with higher or lower this time next? I don't see. Stubbornly sticking with with lower. Dan, you sticks with lower Josh Shagala also pessimistic. No, I think we're on a little bit of a rally. We'll see you higher on next week. And here we are shaking the Bitcoin predictor ball. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? My sources say no. My sources say no. The ball is pessimistic joining in with Josh Shagala. Moving on to issue two crypto firms, Genesis and Gemini, charged with by the SEC with selling unregistered securities. That's right. Also more Gemini and Genesis trouble in the news. Why the Winkelvide brothers are in a $900 million crypto faceoff with Barry Sylvord. It seems like the Gemini exchange owned by the Winkelvide twins, remember Gemini means twins, had a product called Earn where you could invest your money. Your money would then be given out to Genesis, different company owned by DCG, Genesis then gave your money out to FTX. And you know what happens next? FTX lost the money in some kind of a dumpster fire. And now Genesis and Gemini and DCG, the Winkelvide and Barry Sylvord are all in complete freefall. They're saying that Sylvord might even break up the digital currency group selling it off in parts. A massive fall, a sudden collapse. Josh Shagala, what do you think about the Gemini, Gemini, Genesis, Winkelvide, Sylvord, DCG? nightmare. Yeah, I mean, I think this is the contagion that people were looking for directly after the FTX. I had a feeling it would take a long time to shake out some of this contagion as people cover their positions and try to hide some of the damage. And this is what the legacy banking world does all the time. People talk about crypto exchanges getting hacked, but actually banks get hacked all the time. Basically, they just sweep it under the rug and hide it and cover it with insurances. But this is the whole reason and people need to look at this stuff. And I know that there are a lot of people that call everything a shit coin that's not Bitcoin. But we need to head towards more defy. This is typical C-fire crap that the Cypherpunks wanted to get away from. We're trusting these centralized units to lend out, look at it all. One company lends to another company that lends to another company. And every middleman takes a cut and every middleman is another trust factor. It's total nonsense. It's disgusting and it needs to stop. And this is what we built Bitcoin for. This is what we have cryptographic currency for. And that's the beauty of decentralized finance protocols. The main ones being right now on Ethereum. But this is what we need to do. The problem with C-fire is that you can have as many transparency protocols like we have at Valtaro with the Glassbooks Protocol or like Kraken has using Peter Todd and Gregory Maxwell's transparency protocols. But they cannot show you liabilities. So if you have thousands of Bitcoin sitting on your balance sheet and you make a secret contract with someone to use that as a leverage for getting more furniture in your office, you cannot show that cryptographically. So defy does allow you to prove everything cryptographically because it's all based on smart contracts. Look, smart contracts are also not infallible. They can be hacked and stuff. So there's no panacea but this human corruption is what we're stepping away from. Now the spaghetti that's coming out of the FTX collapse is going to be huge. Barry is still but I do believe that the digital currency group is far too powerful in this space. They have coin based that. Like they have a whole bunch of key players under that umbrella. And so being able to break that up through, hey, greed. And this is what's beautiful about capitalism. It actually greed causes people to risk things and then that doesn't work every time. And so we're hopefully the silver lining of this might be that there's more decentralization in some of these key infrastructure points. Well, and Josh, I'm sure you remember this. Remember when DCG used all that power and tried to take over Bitcoin. We'd have the whole Bitcoin fight and they wanted to do Bitcoin 2x where they would double the block reward after the fight. It didn't seem like it was needed, but they had this little New York agreement. And a lot of that was centered around Barry, Silver and the digital currency group. And even the earlier fight with Bitcoin and the blocks seemed like it was a lot about Brian Armstrong and other people who wished that they could control the Bitcoin protocol to say, hey, my business needs big blocks or my business needs small blocks. And they could pick up the phone, call the programmer on the phone and say, hey, do this. And of course, we know you can't do that with Bitcoin. So it probably is good for the Bitcoin ecosystem if someone can't try to take over like this. Josh, where did you think of the DCG Bitcoin 2x debacle? Yeah, I mean, look, you know, open transparency there. I also signed the 2x thing under as Voltoro purely because there was a stalemate. No one wanted to move forward. We had the big blockers wanting big blocks. We had the small blockers just wanting to hold the line. And basically it wasn't allowing the small blockers to initiate segwit to allow us to move forward. And the big blockers didn't allow them to move forward. So there was a stalemate. No one was budging. So the 2x was a way for us to go, okay, let's have a compromise. Let's lift the blocks by twice as much, the block size limit. And then we can also have segwit. Yeah, you're done. The thing was that I reversed that signature once we'd actually once Bitcoin cash had forked off, then I said, we don't need it anymore. And I removed my signature from that list because we now had the big blockers now had the experiment of going with big blocks. And Bitcoin could actually go and move forward and use put segwit in. We'd removed that stalemate. So I do agree with you, though, that large companies being up to sway programmers is a bit sketchy. The thing is about Bitcoin and the beautiful thing about Bitcoin and its architecture. It doesn't matter what the programmers do. The programmers could could have done what Barry wanted and what we signed for. It's the people holding all the nodes and all the miners would have to upgrade to that software. And that's a lot harder to do to convince all of those people to do what you want as a single business that has a lot of infrastructure. Well, obviously, full disclosure here. I used to work at Perst.io, which was a DCG Portfolio company. I only got to meet Barry one time at an incredible NAPO wine retreat. I also met the guy who was running Genesis trading at the time. He was a huge mad Bitcoin fan. So it's very cool. The Genesis trading guy. I've always admired Barry for what I thought was correct investing. I felt if I had been in his shoes to build a portfolio to invest in Coinbase and Perst, Kraken, so many other early Bitcoin companies and to support them and really give us that ecosystem, that ecosystem, that infrastructure that we needed to get Bitcoin out to more people. I thought that was awesome. I also thought the Winkelvi, although I think it was more envy. It was impressive that they had the money to buy Bitcoin with at the time and they made a huge investment into Bitcoin. Both of these things should have taken care of both of these groups forever, but I think that it was too much greed. They saw the ability to get those returns on FTX. They cycled them through Genesis, they cycled them through Gemini, and they offered huge returns for the earn program just like we've seen with these other programs going down after they take on the lending. Dan Eve, what do you think about DCG and their battle with Gemini? It really is a battle of the giants. They're too long-standing Bitcoin advocates. There's some interesting things about this case that and the Winkelvi twins are kind of blaming Gemini, as I said, Genesis on this. They said things like what was it? Those funds belong to customers, including a school teacher, a police officer, and a single mom who lent her son's education money to you. Don't lend your education money out to a random company that's a bad mistake to be made. It's a risky thing to give it to a cryptocurrency company that's going to be lending it out to someone else. For them to blame Gemini, they're two G's, the G's, Genesis for it. They've got to be take responsibility themselves, and the fact is that they maybe should have spread their risk, not as you said, gone from being so greedy about the whole thing. But what happens in the normal markets when there's a recession is that a lot of people tend to default on their loans. The wages, the costs, the outstrip, the wages, then people default on loans. In a bear market, you should be more prepared, and you'd think that these guys would be a bit more prepared for people defaulting on their loans and these sorts of issues. It said that the billion dollars that Barry Silbert was meant to have loans, Genesis, in order to make up for the funds, was essentially a 10-year kind of IOU, which didn't really make much difference. They're obviously understandably a bit pissed by that because of the fact that they thought the situation was a bit more secure than it was. Ultimately, we go back to this time and time again. If you've got your Bitcoin, you're giving your Bitcoin out to someone else, you've got to be prepared for it to be lost because that's what's happened in the real world, and cryptocurrency makes, especially where it's deregulated, there are less protections in place. The government's not going to bail out, like Gemini, for example, or Genesis, which they will do a normal bank. You've actually weirdly got normal protection in a normal bank, but people are chasing those, they were chasing the API. APIs, right? They wanted the big gains. They wanted the 20% that Voyager were earning, and they weren't prepared for, or they didn't really think about the risk that comes associated with giving your money to someone else. It goes back again to Trace Mayer, and the issues with re-hypothication, where the money goes to someone else, who gives it to someone else, who gives it to someone else, who gives it to someone else, and then there's just a chain of unhappy people at the end of it, where FBO, FTX, and 3-Hourish Capital, stuffed it, and then as a result, Gemini stuffed it, and then as a result, Genesis stuffed it. So, you know, and then the customers of Gemini did. So, yeah, it's a sad chain of events, but not your coins, and sometimes, especially with Bitcoin, if you think about it, you're holding Bitcoin, because ultimately, obviously, it's sound money, but you know, you're holding it because it's basically, you think it's going to appreciate over the long term. So just be happy with the fact that your Bitcoin is going to appreciate over an X-EA period, and don't try and give it to someone who's going to give you more, because all it's seeming like now is that all these companies that say they can give you an interest rate that's really high are just as bad as give me one Ethereum, and I'll give you two Ethereum scams, or give me one Bitcoin, and I'll send you two Bitcoin back scams, you know, and I'm not calling them scams, but they're not very reliable. So they're kind of seeming, you know, like they're on the same reliability level as these scams. Go ahead, Josh, more on this. I don't buy the fact that they didn't think about what the other company was doing. Like at Valtteri.com, we have never lent out customer funds to anybody, because it's just too risky. It's just too risky. And if we were to offer a product to say, hey, our clients, let us invest your stuff for you, our, our company, Valtteri.com, if we were to do that, which we probably wouldn't, but if that was an option, man, would we want to know exactly what the company is doing that we're doing? How are you exactly getting the API that you're getting? And either they say contractually, we do XYZ, and we sign off on that, all we don't. Now, if the company that we're lending it out, say, well, we're lending it out to another company, then that's just already like Gargarland. And there are so many, there are ways to earn an API that are fairly risk-free. There's nothing risk-free, but risk minimized, and that's over collateralization. Again, that's the defy mechanism, rather than the CFI mechanism, which always goes for like, hey, we could get more people borrowing if we just don't need so much collateral from them. And this is that, you know, little bit of, little bit of bait at the end of the hook that's going to get you. But yeah, I don't buy the fact. I think this, obviously, if you're in CEO and you've got it mad customers at you, at INEC, you were having, you have to shift the blame. But at the end of the day, all of these companies that are to blame, there's no one they can point a stick, they can point their finger out and go, they're the ones that are at fault. No, no, no, they're all at fault here because they're all playing with shenanigans. They're not dumb people. They do their due diligence, and they decided that it was good enough. That's my take. It's interesting, Josh, because there's faults at every level of the chain, right? It starts off, you've got Gemini, they want to offer this earned product, but they don't know how to get the money for the earn. So in a total custody disaster, they take the funds and they give them to Genesis. Now, in the past, I believe that Genesis used to do this kind of stuff in house and that they were trade. I don't know alt coins, derivatives, futures, you know, magical potions and quantitative analysis, and they would get back these returns. Now, I don't know what happened. I have no inside information from these companies. I don't know anybody that works there, but it seems to me something happened and Genesis decided instead of them investing the money, they should give the money to FTX. Now, maybe FTX has a bigger ball to roll, and if you're rolling through whatever this investment is, you have a big enough snowball. It's a lot better. It's a lot easier. Whatever it is, a decision is made, and this becomes a three company deal. And that's where I think it starts to shift out of control because now everyone needs a cut of this money. There needs to be such a large return that each one of these companies can profit and still be fine. And the end user gets to profit too. It just seems like a lot of imaginary profit to pull out of one system. And I know Barry and others have blamed it. It's because of the criminal element and it's because of, you know, basically saying it without saying it of Sam. And it seems to me there's a lot more than just Sam at stake here. There's way too much profit to get out of one system. But Dan. I like the fact that they're also having to go having to go the SEC saying, like, you know, saying that it's totally counterproductive to be following up on us for selling securities that we were clearly very much selling, you know, these high yield products. But ultimately, you know, the people making money don't want regulation, people losing money want regulation. So there's this constant battle and the more people that get burned by this chain of companies, you know, it was just the FTX company. So just the FTX customers, but obviously there was, you know, Block 5, get word, Celcius, three-hour capital then, Gemini now and Genesis and FTX, Alameda. You know, as these grow, there's going to be more of a call for regulation. So these big companies operating the way they do are bringing the regulation upon us by not acting in a sensible manner and hedging their risks properly and being so blasé about holding people's cash. I mean, I actually couldn't imagine what it's like to actually run one of these companies because if someone gives me 10 pounds, like they learn me 10 pounds. And until I pay back that 10 pound debt, I'm like, oh my god, I owe them 10 pounds, I've got to get rid, I've got to pay them back, you know, at one point during the ball run of 2017, someone gave me some coins that were worth, ended up being worth a lot putting that way, a lot, lot, lot more money than I've ever known. And I was like, I need to give you tokens back, like why am I holding them for you? It was the worst thing ever. But these people that have run these companies where they hold other people's money, they're just so blasé about it. They're just, let's just shove it here and shove it there and who really cares? And I'm sure it wasn't just like that. But ultimately, a lot of people could have seen this coming a mile off, especially, you know, it's the whole thing if you don't put all your eggs in one basket, it seems them are very much over leveraged, not over leveraged, but over, but they're very much overburdened by this failure of jealousists to pay the funds back. So, these are basic principles of risk management that you'd think companies like this would have implemented. But now, you know, things have failed. So, they're asking for silver to be, you know, to step down or to be removed from the board and they're angry at the SEC, the Winklevider ins and everything's chaotic. But big, go and price this still up. So, it's still pretty resilient. Could you be imagine being in the Winklevider control center and everything's going bad and there's no money and then you get a phone call and it's like, oh, the SEC is investigating you now. It's just when things go wrong, they just go so wrong. And like Dan said, the price of Bitcoin looks like it might recover. Who knows, maybe the Winklevider could have just held onto their coins and done nothing at all. Exit question, predict the future. Will they break up the digital currency group and will it be a surprise? Good thing for Bitcoin. Dan Eve. I don't know if it will break up. You know, it might be resilient and weather the storm. You know, still, but although he's been into into shit coins, has been a big Bitcoin advocate from the start. So you'd hope that he's not too exposed to the shit coinery that's gone on and they're stacking a lot of actual Bitcoin. There could be another kind of, although I was going to say there could be a not still be a lining, but a positive that comes along down the line, which is, I'll be still waiting for a spot ETF decision, although that's probably been, that's probably the other window now, isn't it? Because who are the two biggest campaigners? They're Genesis and Gemini. So yeah, that may not go down so well. But again, ultimately, it's, you know, I'd prefer if the, yeah, it would be better for the ecosystem of these companies didn't fall because even though they're nothing to do with Bitcoin, you know, they're, they're, it would be good if people could kick, they could give some of that money back. And the fact is that any negative connotations relating to companies that trade Bitcoin, so you know, it's bad for the adoption of Bitcoin. So yeah, I hope they, I hope everyone sorts it out and they all kiss and make up and they recover money and everyone's friends again and Bitcoin goes to the moon. Josh Shagala. Yeah, there's an ultra in Bitcoin that says, this is actually good for Bitcoin. You know, whenever there was a huge calamity, there'd be someone in Bitcoin talk forums or in the Reddit subreddit saying, this is actually really good for Bitcoin. So I'm going to go with that old trope. I'm going to agree with Josh. I think they will break up the digital currency group. I think it'll be good for Bitcoin, but special bonus prediction, bad for CoinDesk. CoinDesk, the company that helped kick off the FTX disaster by exposing it ruined their parent company DCG and will probably be sold off to someone who takes, wants to take their reliability and their reputation and use it for commercial purchases purposes. CoinDesk will be a shadow of itself in the future. Check out worldcryptoNetwork.com where we got videos by topic. Yes, we've got tons and tons of topics, maybe even 1700 of them. You can click on any of them to check out the videos that we did. Here's one about the Satoshi Roundtable. We can go back. Here's one about the Bank of England. Look, three videos about the Bank of England. You can click them all right here at worldcryptoNetwork.com. We've also got an update in the side standings. Dan Eve is chasing tone veys for the most appearances on the show and Joshua Shagalla has passed Jimmy Song for the most appearances on the show. Moving on to issue three FTX liquidators lost $74,000 in wrapped Bitcoin in an embarrassing on chain faux pas. Something about some strange coin that they moved and they had to have the capital there. They moved the capital away and the loan of the strange coin was taken away from them, costing them for wrapped Bitcoin's. Meanwhile, the major media wants to know who guaranteed Sam Bankman frees $250 million bond. As we all said, the parent's house was worth a few million throw in the aunt's house, maybe a couple more million. That's not 25 million. That's not 10% of 250 million who put the money up. They say that they can't tell us because they didn't tell us about Jizzilin Maxwell and they were sex crimes in that case. But this is a financial crimes case. Joshua Shagalla, what do you think about FTX, the lost money and now the questionable bond? It's really hard to speculate on this one, but it is very suspect with all these political connections on both sides of the aisle. More publicized on the Democratic side. Because they're in power, I guess there will be more push there because they are in power. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to say about it. It is suspect and it needs investigation. It is unfortunate when things like this seem to feed the conspiracy theories around things. Of course, we all know he gave money to Democrats and Republicans. So both parties could actually want to keep them out of jail, want to keep them in out of trouble. And it's very curious as well. They say the reason they're not telling us who put up the bond is because they could get bad press the way the parents and everyone else involved. And this has gotten bad press. Well, maybe they should get bad press. Why are we protecting them? I thought this was some kind of egalitarian American system. Dan Eave, they're not telling us who took the bond, but they sure did lose the money. What do you think of FTX this week? No, I think I'm with Josh. I think that the politics part where he was such a big day later, you know, in general, both Democrats and Republicans mean that he's probably got there's probably a lot of people who want to hide their involvement. And maybe he kind of they said that they were going to pull strings for FTX. And now that Sandbank and Free is going down, they need he needed some strings pulled. Otherwise, he can release some information. That could be a conspiracy theory in itself. But I think it's entirely logical that that's how this unfortunately, the kind of lobbying system works. You pay the money, you get the favors, the secret favors, whatever. But I think ultimately it's in the public's interest. Like it's a different, I mean, not the crazy redactions in the Epstein thing, one in the public's interest, because I still think it's an insane thing that one lady's gone down for this huge sex trafficking operation and not a single dude who has sex trafficked to his. That's all a bit crazy like how, how hasn't that happened? But protecting people, I mean, you think of the number of people that have been affected by FTX and who deserve to know, like who's funding this thing, right? Like I don't know how it's made, I don't know how it's hidden, like it's basically hidden from the public. I think it's crazy. There's obviously weird stuff that's come out since like he he visited the White House and to get to advise on COVID-19, like weirdly September or something, they were like, oh yeah, it was it was visited about COVID, he visited about COVID-19, even though he's obviously not a doctor. But the the the the the funniness that's happening with the funds from Alameda being sort of switched around as well, just you know, people liquidating and not really knowing what they're doing. There was one that said that they they sent 60 cents worth of dye and two cents worth of collar token, which obviously only theorem two cents would have been you know, far less of token, far less than the fee to send it to the multi-seag, but they still have 1.5 million of funds that have yet to be like moved. So it seems like a bit of a you know, a headless chicken running around or a group of headless chickens running around trying to sort the the mess out, although they did have a big win, which was announcing that they've recovered five billion worth of assets. So that's some kind of you know, silver lining, I suppose, but they're really Alameda in general and FTX, you know, they're liquidating. They're all checking under the sofacushions trying to find that little bit of spare change here and there. But going back, yeah, ultimately, they people the people should know, the people should know, it's definitely in the public in the public interest about who is is is is is fronting the money to defend a guy who is defrauded thousands hundreds of thousands of people. It's like of course, those in the public interest. Well, and who's left to be this guy's friend? Certainly we understand his parents putting their house up his aunt, maybe some family friends, but who has the big, heavy pockets who didn't get destroyed in this? Everyone who put their money in got destroyed, all the investors, all the people who did advertising for them, all the big names, they all had money in this. They all got taken down. There's one of them out there. I don't know who he is, but he's still a fan of Sam. Maybe it's Mr. Wonderful. Maybe he has all the money and he just funded the the bail and again, he's a public figure. There's no reason to withhold this information. I disagree with the court very much. I think that they should expose the information. And if there is negative damages, you should accept them. You're bailing out a negative person like this is a person like Dan said who scammed lots of people, all the insurance funds, all the pension funds, all the retirement funds. He shouldn't really be out on bail. Go ahead, Josh. There is still innocent, still proving guilty. Even though there's a very, very minimal tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny chance that that might be right, that is still there. So the court system is there for a reason and the bail system is there for a reason too. And he has pleaded not guilty and said he was just bad at business. But nevertheless, so that's why I like to put the allegedly in there because we don't want to be liable for just saying that he has de-forwarded because it's still hasn't been sealed and delivered. But there is definitely a lot of questions about this bail. What I don't understand is even for a billionaire, 250 million isn't chunk change. If you lose that because he's found guilty, and that's the, I'm not sure about American correct. You would mainly lose it if he ran. This is mainly about him not running. And I do agree, Josh, he is innocent until proving guilty. But it just seems that there'd be a little bit of respite for the people who have lost their money that the person who's running the company would be spending the holidays in jail rather than as we know from a recent interview playing video games at home. It's not punishment. It's jail. It's bad. It's a bad place certainly. But if he was in the bad place, people would be saying, well, the system's working. You know, it's grinding in the right direction. But this mystery billionaire or whoever has come along and has taken that small bit of respite away from these people. Well, I have to also say here, I don't, like you said, there's not many friends left. And let's twist it around a little bit. Even the parents' house has been bought with customers' funds. There's no way that Sam could have earned as much as he did to sort of front this up. So he's using customer funds right now to bail himself out. He's just continuing the alleged scam. Allegedly continuing the alleged scam. He's allegedly continuing the alleged scam by actually using customer funds who bought the property. And then I think it's not outside of the world of imagination to think that he's also using customer funds piped through multiple different corners to then put up the bail. So it's very sketchy. It would be, it definitely should come out. The court should release that information. It is amazing when you decide to break the law or allegedly break the law. You can gain all this power that you can then use to defend yourself against the law. Other people should have known this. People like the alleged dread pirate Roberts who seemingly didn't put anything away for his legal defense, like Josh is saying, for all we know, and we have no information on this. It's a speculation. Sam could have put money in this account and that account Bitcoin in this account, given it to this person, given it to that person, whatever it is, it's very possible. The money bailing him out is customer funds. And like Josh saying, I was thinking about more. It's like every laptop he has, every computer he has, every bag, every little piece of clothing and things that he has is essentially all stolen customer funds because of how horribly he ran his business. Dan Gia more on this. Yeah. And the sad thing is that even without the the pilfering and one pilfering, but the recovery of funds for Alameda and FTX, you know, they're using mixing services to try and obfuscate where the funds are going. And there's no doubt, I mean, I don't doubt for a minute that when SBF, he didn't have his own kind of little insurance addresses where he was rinsing funds to maybe some sub companies. And he's, you know, he's got, although he kept saying, oh, he's got 100K. When you repeat something 20 times, you're like one of those duping delight and you're smiling about you're like one of the, the duping delight, if you're into murder mystery porn, you know, those kind of documentaries where they're like, they talk about the killer sort of doing interviews on TV, whilst the dead body like knowing where the dead body isn't being like, oh, I'm really sad, but we need to find the people who did this blah blah blah. You know, the duping delight things, the repetition of certain things is because they're lying about it. And I just don't believe that he hasn't got an absolute shed ton of cash in all these different addresses, which has been kind of slowly pilfered out throughout the, throughout the years of FTX. And that's not the reason, that's sorry, that is the money that's being used to prop up the case. And the reason why they want the identities remaining hidden because the more people look into it, the more they might be able to trace the money back to SBF, his and self. Well, and another great part about that alleged possible lie is he could be telling the truth where it's, I only have 100K in my bank account, but in my Bitcoin address that's hidden, I have a billion dollars and I have Litecoin and I have Doge and I have whatever else, he could be telling the truth, but not actually telling the truth and answering the full question. Let's move on to the exit question, Josh Shagalla, at the end of the day, what will happen? Will we ever find out who financed FTX's bail, SBF's bail? I think there's too many powerful interests to play, I don't think we'll find out. Dan Eve, will we ever find out who financed the bail? I'm confident that there's going to be enough enough people who want to leak that information that we will find out and enough internet sludes to somehow trace those funds. I agree with Dan, I think eventually will come out. It's not what they want to happen, but it does seem to be what eventually happens. Maybe it'll be an old friend of the family who just happened to have the money in an account or Mr. Wonderful is still my pick, Kevin O'Leary. Moving on to issue three. Issue three, Mark Cuban prediction or issue four, I think. Mark Cuban predicts this will be the next possible implosion in crypto. Here's how to avoid it. Yes, Mark Cuban used to be into ICOs and altcoins and all kinds of fun stuff and said that Bitcoin wasn't serious. Now he's back, he's into Bitcoin again and he's here to fix it. He says the problem with Bitcoin is wash trading on the central exchanges as everyone knows, a wash trade is when a trader buys and sells the same financial assets multiple times in order to generate fake volume and make it as pure as if there's a high demand for the asset. This artificially inflated demand can mislead other traders into investing real money into the asset. Dan, Mark Cuban's worried about this for Bitcoin, but it sounds more like a problem for altcoins, ICOs and maybe even NFTs. Dan, what do you think about Mark Cuban and wash trading? Well, I think there's still every now and then. There's still wash trading stories that are out there. They just washed away as it were drained out by all the stories of FTX and all the drama and the polycules and all these other crazy stories of companies collapsing. It's in an exchange's best interest to prove that they don't wash trade and often you find these stories somehow wash trading at one exchange leads back to research done by another exchange. They've got vested interest in dobbling each other in and grasping on each other. I think the thing is we've like going back to what Joshua was saying earlier about the hate on it, but the smart contract infrastructure that allows a much more transparent order book where on a traditional exchange, from my experience and I was looking into shit coins back in the day, there were coins that were the daily volume was 100 times the actual entire order book on the exchange of both buys and sells. It's clearly wash traded and you couldn't see these trades happening live and you could probably still go to an exchange right now and see some of these trades just happening without a matching order on there, just magic out of the blue. Ultimately, both not just exchanges, but the actual shit coins themselves that are linked listed on these exchanges have a reason to want to wash trade and show volume because the volume shows the demand for the coin. They pay market makers to market makers who literally just buy and sell from each other. Sometimes extraordinarily obviously, but the same amount traded every five minutes so that you have a complete flatline of volume rather than an actual realistic chart of volume because they've been faking their own volume whereas indexes it's a lot more obvious and they on a centralized exchange the shit coin can negotiate and not pay fees because they're on their own trades but on a dex you have to pay fees to the actual dex. So wash trading becomes a lot more costly for people on a dex, so it's more obvious if you're doing so because it's easier to try and see where the coins are buying the buying selling of coins is coming from. So I think more transparency is good ultimately and we're going to get that not from centralized exchanges but from dex's. Oh, as we saw in the past with the Mt. Gox attacks there was the willy bot and the other bot that were trading and they were supposedly market making but it's so much easier to make the market when you don't have to pay any fees and I do love the idea of Cuban this late to Bitcoin and cryptocurrency coming in like the character out of Casa Blanca. He's just like I am shocked. I am shocked that there's wash trading going on in this cryptocurrency exchange. Josh Shagalla should should Cuban be so shocked? Is he going to fix it all? No and this is exactly right. These legacy financial talking heads who are all of a sudden at all these crypto events as experts is a joke and we've said it before on the show that it's kind of annoying for people like us who have been in the space forever and really have a very minutiaid and and and fine grain understanding of what happens and the personalities behind them. But yeah, wash trading is one of these things that is you know in one way yes it does show liquidity sort of can can pretend you're more liquid than you are but actually it's can be used to drive up the price for coins as well and and so if you are the if you're the exchange you want to do it to basically show liquidity but you might also want to do it to drive up a coin and then short it as it dumps back down and stuff like that that is harder to do now because of arbitrage opportunities between exchanges and so you need a vast amount of volume to have that happen but you know what one of the things that's really coming out of all of this is is really wash rugs that's kind of what I'm calling ours that there's a lot of these old coins that they're wash trading it to drive the price up and then they rug pull it and that's really one of the most awful parts of of the crypto space for for unsuspecting investors and so again exactly what Dan said Dexas solve this because it's very very expensive to wash trade on Dexas plus there's no real need for it because you can see the liquidity in the liquidity pools we've gone away from auto books and we've gone on gone more to pools so we can see exactly how much liquidity is in a pool it has to be it has to be there it's provable if there's any weird shenanigans it can be spotted pretty quickly yeah the the future is syphapont the future is Dexas I agree Josh it is interesting to see that the mainstream media prefers to use old experts and people who have made their money in the old world instead of bringing in new crypto experts that might actually understand what they're talking about and it's not just the media it's also the people I went to that web three conference couple of months go in Las Vegas and mr. wonderful was one of the major announced speakers and he was on this panel and that panel and he made a speech here and he promoted his company here and in between those speeches he'd go down the hall and people would all follow him like he had all the answers and they're like oh mr. wonderful from shark tank from TV is finally here to tell us about crypto and like a week later the ftx story came out he's totally wrecked his reputation is ruined it's all over and I don't think he should have ever been there in the first place remember he testified before congress and said that ftx's uh business competitor cz and binance had allegedly wrecked their whole business and he didn't seem knowledgeable on that he wasn't very knowledgeable when I listen to talk at the convention his main things were the same old thing where he says regulation you know what we really need is some regulation in this crypto here because then we're going to bring in the big money uh for you guys and it just doesn't seem to add up and it happens over and over and over again but oh but sadly if there had been a bit more regulation he wouldn't have been it in broad in the ftx thing so um maybe he's he was uh he saw it coming but he just couldn't do anything to stop the freight train of corruption I don't agree it was everything that sandbank man uh fraud allegedly did uh was was already illegal um it there was already regulations this if there's some criminal they will get around they just won't follow the regulations so I don't that you cannot regulate on regulate and regulate when something's already regulated it's just someone that's going to break that law is already breaking the law so I think it comes back down to uh as as Bitcoiners as people that are in this to uh to look at other solutions think outside of the square because the square that we came from is regulation now with all the regulations that banks have you think they're still corrupt do you think they still law under money do you think that they still do dodgy deals of course they do we all know they do do you think they need bank bailouts well that was in the in the genesis block of Bitcoin the whole point is to think outside the block and to build something on chain to build stuff that is cipherpone and to get away from these centralized exchanges that's the problem d5 Bitcoin that's the solution the place I'd really like to see some regulation is on the advertising uh because over and over again they said FTX is here and we have all these horrible prescription drug ads here in the us and I have to say all the side effects and all the ingredients all the stuff this FTX commercial comes on all the FT2 is one line at the end of where they're like FTX cryptocurrency company is based in the Bahamas instead they pretended it was a us company they were meeting with all the us regulators I thought they were just another coin base and I never used them I never did due diligence of that level but without that extra piece of information oh they're incorporated in the Bahamas you can trust them they're just like all the other people that are you know tax frauds it's totally fine I think there should be more regulation there but we'll see how that goes we're running out of time we just wanted to give a remembrance today to how finny early Bitcoin pioneer took the first transaction from Satoshi volunteered to help out the Bitcoin network sent early transactions wrote early posts about Bitcoin on the message boards uh had little thought experiments about how much the price could be and obviously saw right away that having it locked to 21 million units would be a huge boon to the price a bit of a dreamer did some code on a early tron video game that Ben has uh did some code on Bitcoin wrote essays about cryptocurrency before we had cryptocurrency just really impressive guy how finny it's sad that he passed away early due to ALS his wife is doing a really neat run competition he was a runner it's on twitter if you want to check out more information about how finny there Josh anything you want to say about how finny on the 14th anniversary of the first Bitcoin transaction no I know rest in peace and I'm gonna go do a run today for him Jan anything you'd like to say just a just legendary he put the first obviously apart from the first transaction he also was in 2004 implemented the first proof of work algorithms and the reasonable proof of work based on Adam Bax paper and put it into into action so he was you know really providing the the foundational layer of testing foundational layer of Bitcoin which is proof of work so what legend and also got to love him because he said when it wasn't worth anything at all was like I've done some back of the bag packet calculations and got to be about 10 million dollars a Bitcoin so let's just hope it reaches 10 million dollars one day an excellent early prediction and a great Bitcoin pioneer remembering how finny and now prediction or a story of the week Josh a gola are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week go ahead um well no I'm not ready but I think it's gonna be a good week I think it's gonna be interesting to see what happens with DCG the Vincolvier yeah it's interesting that through all of this this this new the price is going up so that that could be two things folks it could be a manipulation of someone trying to cover losses and drive prices up or it could be actually that there's no weekends left um that's my prediction which isn't really a prediction what a what a story these Vincolvier if they made all the money with Facebook lost it made all the money with Bitcoin lost it again what a what a story it'll be and I'm sure they're fine I'm sure personally they're fine but what an interesting story what an amazing story Dan Eve prediction or a story of the week go ahead um I reckon that that silver and the Vincolvier will settle their little dispute over a mud wrestling match held at the SEC oh boy and the twins could wrestle against Barry it would be two on one that's fair it's fair because they're twins right it's right isn't it maybe maybe there maybe like half of them is strapped together so they can only use like one arm and one leg each and that's good as well so it would be a very powerful headbutt of course with the two of them the striking force but who knows they're very fifth they were rowers in the Facebook movie it's all we know about them is from the Facebook movie rowers and rowers over it as well they were rowers rowers and more uh thanks again to everybody for joining us today be sure to give us a thumbs up down below and subscribe if it's your first time here uh send us a comment say hello to the chat and that's about it until next time