The Bitcoin Group, the American Original, for over the last ten seconds, the sharpest as Toshis, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. recommend stack them. Josh Seagala from thestandard.io. Bring on the good stuff. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one. Issue one, SEC claims jurisdiction because Ethereum nodes are clustered in the US. The SEC has argued that because Ethereum validators are concentrated more densely in the United States, Ethereum transactions are seen as taking place in the country. Thus, they consume a YouTuber who promoted an ICO using the Ethereum network. Dan Eve, your thoughts on the SEC's interpretation of Ethereum transactions? Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because they're not going off of Ethereum specifically. This is more about, this is more about E and Belina and his ICO shilling, right? So in 2017, 2018, he did a lot of ICO shilling. It was almost, it was also that famous little clip where he got kind of ransacked live on S sadly because he stored his private keys in Evernote and then his Evernote got hacked. But at that side, going back to Ethereum. So they are clustered more densely around the US. I think it was something like 41%, but it's not like the majority of them, right? So it's not more than 50%. So I think that in order to make the argument that the transactions mostly happen in the US, surely like most of the nodes would have to be there more than half, I suppose rather than just being the largest number of nodes in the specific country. But it's the long arm of the US law, right? They're trying to, this isn't the SEC or the SEC going off three-themed, specifically, they're going after in this specific ICO. And they know that if they can get a kind of a foot in the door with Ethereum, there's probably a lot of money to be made and a lot of control over Ethereum that they can actually get. And that's ultimately what they want, right? It is sad that there's a lot of maximalists that are kind of from the Bitcoin side, like singing the praises of the SEC and after them, which I always think is really odd to be shouting about free markets and freedom and stuff like that and lack of censorship and then calling for the censorship of other things that they disagree with. It's always quite a bit hypocritical. But ultimately, this is going to be a bit of a test case to see how kind of much of an impact their decision about or whether they do conclude that the Ethereum transactions are on US soil. And therefore, they should come under US law. But I think we'll see. I don't think it's going to have much legs to be honest because as much as there is still some decentralization there that's not fully decentralized, certainly not as much as Bitcoin, but ultimately, it's not a completely centralized entity. Joshua, what do you think is 51% even the right place to start? If 51% of the transactions are on US soil, does that mean the entire system is? No, it's a total ridiculous land grab on their side. It's funny seeing different countries dealing with it differently. Like in Germany, everyone's trying to pass off, oh no, it's a commodity, it's their problem. No, it's a, you know, where's in the States, it seems like every government entity wants to take control and have more jurisdiction over Bitcoin or over Ethereum. There's really, it's really kind of a strange stretch to say that because the nodes are there, then the transactions are there. And also like, why don't they spend the money educating people on how to invest rather than this absolute, fascicle, ridiculous jumping through a million hoops to try to catch people selling investment opportunities, whether they're bad or good, this should be something that needs to be taught to people how to actually look at these opportunities, quote unquote, and figure out for themselves if they are good or bad or ugly, rather than this weird let's take over the network. But I think it's really, this is the time where the government is going to start to really try to take control and this is just another attack vector on the network. They can't reverse transactions, they can't actually take control now. If they could, that would be a different story and that's probably what they would end up doing, but they can't so they'd just rather go after some sort of jurisdictional control. I'm not sure it's weird. Unfortunately, Josh, your plan to educate the investors would require the teaching of critical thinking skills. And we decided here in the United States, after this success of propaganda during World War One, not to educate our people with critical thinking skills because that would to harm the ender in order to keep the propaganda successful, keep the people ignorant, thus your propaganda keeps working. Exit question, will the SEC regulate Ethereum? Yes or no? Dan Eve. I think now they'll have a good, you know, a good try at doing so. Again, if you know, if they're realizing that cryptocurrencies are growing in such, you know, with such force around the world, countries adopting it and they're, you know, they're not being able to stop that. Then yeah, they're going to do whatever they can to maintain control over a monetary system and they'll pick on something that they obviously can't do with Bitcoin, so they'll pick on the smaller ones. Joshua, Shigala. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens if other countries try to do the same strategy. And it's like, hang on, but there's got to be just one here. Yeah, tend to a big game of hungry hairpods with their cryptos. They will try to clam the front control. There can't be 51% everywhere, but if there's, you know, 10, 15% here, why shouldn't we get a cut? Why shouldn't they get a cut? And them too. I think the answer is yes, the SEC will attempt to regulate Ethereum. However, will they be successful? Will they have total success? Let's remember that Ethereum like Bitcoin is software and software can be changed. Moving on to issue two, Bitcoin could return to $68,000 within four years and hit $500,000 in the next decade. According to micro strategies, Michael Sayler, whose company has also purchased more Bitcoin and had a similar decline to Bitcoin in their stock price. Michael Sayler also says that Bitcoin is better than physical property for regular folks and that there's no maintenance cost in owning an inheriting digital property. Whereas with other and physical property, there's a ton of costs. Josh Nagala, your thoughts on Michael Sayler, his Bitcoin predictions and his ideas about Bitcoin as real estate and property, which of course we've discussed many times on these shows. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit of a like a, hey, you know, I don't know, that prediction is pretty vague. It's like, you know, the longer you extend the time period, the less of a prediction it really is because Well, and how can he even predict anything lacking the magical Bitcoin ball? Like obviously he's on very untrustworthy ground to begin with. Maybe he has one. No, it's possible. He could have a copy. We didn't put this ball on the blockchain, so as everyone knows, it could easily be copied. Yeah, but I, you know, having such a long time frame really, anyone that's long Bitcoin could say the same. You know, like in the next four years, Macafee, Rest in Peace, one of the 80s dick, if it didn't reach a mill or whatever it was, 100k, I can't remember. And it was 100k. We were pretty close, but then so is he to making the ultimate sacrifice? Yeah. And so, yeah, I don't know, it's such a typical sort of thing to sort of pull out these huge numbers and then be the guy that's like correct because, you know, in three years time when it does reach that, everyone's going to go, oh, Salah, you're just so brilliant, you're just amazing. When really, you can ask any Macafee the same question, they'll say the same thing. Well, and a lot of it's because of the Bitcoin halving structure, right, Josh? The fact that we know production will reliably go to within the next two years by 50%. Means that we can adjust accordingly and assume that the price of Bitcoin will go up. Yeah. Dan, Eve, do you have a similar prognosticating powers to Michael Salah? Well, I think he's quoting the classic four-year rule, right, which is, you know, based on the halving schedule. I do think I've got this, I still think it's going to be, you know, pump massively after just because of the economics and the model of the Bitcoin, the the the the economic model of Bitcoin and compared to other sort of currencies that just been printed to infinity. But I do think like the impact of the halving, you know, could weigh in over time because the amount that even though you're halving the reward, the amount that the reward that's coming out compared to the the amount of supply that there is kind of, you know, reduces, it's less of an impact each time, you know, when you first had the halving from 50 down to 25, the supply was only 10 million. Now this this supply going from 6.25, whatever it is, down to 3.7, 3.7, whatever it is, 3.12, whatever it is, that's going to be less of an impact because there's going to be around 19 and a half or 20 million Bitcoin sort of mind. So that is actually, you know, the less of an impact. But ultimately, this is, he's obviously sial-shilling Bitcoin a lot. He kind of is a right because he got in a what nine and a half K on average, micro-strategy not doing so so well, but they dropped their kind of micro-strategy death bar Bitcoin, you know, margin call bar from what 21 K, they dropped it and said, I actually, they can go down to 3 K before there's really an issue and they've still got surplus Bitcoin that they can sell off to kind of to stay out of that margin call. But it is a small order and so it is evident about their confidence in how far this dip could actually reach in between the next harmony. But I definitely agree that four years time and Bitcoin is going to be way up on what it is now just by previous market cycles without using triangles and stuff and mystic meg's classic ball, which isn't as good as the magical eight ball. Of course. Yeah, I don't think Michael Staler has anything more powerful than the Bitcoin predictor ball to predict base his predictions on. However, we are very lucky to have someone like him out there in the media predicting good things for Bitcoin while the market is falling apart and everyone else is losing their heads. These are the kind of predictions in a bear market where you predict something positive for Bitcoin and it turns out later to be true that are the most important predictions because these also drive opinion. The Bitcoin bottom is not just a number, it's a psychological number. Everyone has to feel like they've been wrecked and destroyed, like it's all over and then they'll know the bottom is in and good predictions like Michael Saler help us remember that maybe there will be good times ahead for Bitcoin. And now Dan Eve, Joshua Schgalla predicting against the ball, Joshua Schgalla will go up or down higher or lower this time next week. I think we might be near the bottom. We might be going up a little bit according to the Elliott wave. Three, one, two, three, eight, four, eight, six, ABC. No, to be honest, yeah, I think we have to hit a little bit of a bottom we might go up for a little bit and then we'll be going sideways and down and everybody's nervous right now. So once usually what happens is once it's gone down for a long time, it'll do a little bit of a rally, but then people will go like, oh, it's up. I'm going to sell like, you know, nervous hands will start to sell. It takes a while for people to get rid of all the weekends and have the hard core just still holding. So I think we'll be going sideways for a little while and up in the short term. You can trust the Elliott wave. You can also trust the rainbow chart. Dan Eve, higher or lower? Oh, I'm still going lower. Unfortunately, I think there's still so much pessimism in the world. It's the price is still affected by lots of general craziness that happens outside of it, right? Like, you know, for anything from the water is still going on, you know, Russia's mobilizing troops and there's still lots of general fear and uncertainty in terms of the markets and flations going crazy. But then there's all these countermeasures that the countries are trying to the central banks and several are trying to implement to counter that. So I think that there's still a lot of up and down. You know, we don't have the absolute certainty of the harvining to really kind of rally the troops and flip out the laser eyes again and all that kind of crazy stuff. The youngest member of the panel, but also the most pessimistic, a crusty young man. Dan Eve, will the magical Bitcoin ball agree with you? Here we are, we're shaking the ball, evidence for YouTube. And now will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? Outlook good. Outlook good. The magical Bitcoin ball is optimistic. Place your own predictions in the chat down below. It's a great time to give us a thumbs up and check us out. We've got our own audio podcast on Apple iTunes and other places where you can check out podcasts. It's up to date last week's episode is there and we have exactly 67 ratings. Not a single person has rated us since last week. So there's still a chance for you to rate our audio podcast. It's rated 3.8 stars with 67 ratings. World crypto network. Issue 3, CEO of Kraken, the cryptocurrency exchange, steps down. Jesse Powell, the chief executive, has battled with employees after posting messages about race and gender and urging those who disagreed with his values to leave. Obviously, a friend of this show we went to college together. CEO Jesse Powell did an incredible job at Kraken leading the country leading the company to a $10.5 billion evaluation. That's a deck of corn. That's 10 unicorns. Kraken did have the political troubles, but it also is a huge mark of success for Jesse and the team at Kraken to build an exchange out of nothing and to step down successfully leaving the company to be run by other professionals. Dan, Eve, your thoughts on Jesse Powell's stepping down and do you think it was just a good time? Had something to do with the politics? All of these ideas and more. Go ahead. Yeah, I think it's not always correlation. As they say, a correlation does not equal causation. Even though it's just after the timing of what seemed to be controversial, anti-wokeness sort of rant, the fact is that all most CEOs and slash founders step down after a while to focus on other things. He's still a member of the board, but being is the chairman. So being the chairman is a bit less responsibility, especially on the day to day. I'm sure once you reach a point where you make a $10 billion company, some people do just crack on and build more companies, whatever, say Elon Musk, but others want to take some time out and live life, do other things. There was obviously a bit of controversy over what he said about the in his Slack channels becoming a dictator or taking it back to dictatorship. But ultimately, people want to live their lives if I had $10 billion and build a huge company. I want to go and do much more core stuff and not have to worry about the day to day, just stepping as chairman every now and then, making some groove decisions and just focus on other things, rather than have to deal with the nitty-gritty and also the risk with it. There's a lot of regulatory risks that comes with it. So you're offsetting that risk or handing off that risk to someone else to take on and that responsibility. As a second biggest exchange in the US, there's a lot of responsibility that comes with that and a lot of risk that comes with that. So I think it's fair to think that it might not just be just the controversial anti-wokism and could just be like, hey, I want to go and do cool things other than be CEO of a huge mega company. The dictatorship lasted only three months. However, still personally, salooned cheers to Jesse Powell, creating a unicorn, a Deca Unicorn, a $10 billion company out of Sac State and getting your resignation into the New York Times, the paper of record when he stepped down. As for the politics, I think it was probably time to go. Like Dan said, plenty of other things for Jesse to do in the art world, in the crypto world, anything he's interested in, the sky's the limit. He has plenty of options now. It's a great position to be in. Josh, Shagall, your thoughts, a similar story, another crypto CEO, Jesse Powell taking his exit this week. Yeah, I wish him all the best. Jesse's been in this game for ages. I've never met him personally, although I feel like I have because he's been in the game for such a long time. It's like me and you guys. One thing that's always scary when it comes to the exchange side is, Cracken's been one of the very few exchanges, just like Plotor, that's never been hacked, really. When there is a change of guard, it is scary to see how the new guard deals with security, deals with these sorts of issues. It's definitely one of those things. I think Dan's 100% right and yourself told me that after a while, I've run Boltona since 2015. There is a lot of stress, a lot of ups and downs, a lot of drama, personal drama, all this stuff. It's just constant. Sometimes, I can imagine running, I can't even imagine running at Decker Unicorn like that. How much pressure is constantly on you? So, well done, Jesse. I think you've created an amazing exchange, amazing product. You guys have had your ups and downs like crazy. I remember during the 2017 or around when Bitcoin Cash split, the exchange was just always going down. It was really hard to use because it just got too hit too much traffic. Then they fixed that and it's run bodily smooth since then. Good luck, Jesse. I hope to see you around the traps. I'd love to see him on the show. Again, just shout out to Jesse. He was a huge early Bitcoin supporter. He gave people the ability to buy Bitcoin as well as the ability if they wanted to to trade them for altcoins, so on and so forth. An incredible service to the community and really allowing people the option and the chance to buy with Kraken. Exit question, will Brian Armstrong resign in a similar manner? With the documentary coin coming out later this month in October, Brian Armstrong is now featured in his own documentaries. Similar political troubles to Jesse Powell. Similar offer to people to take it or leave it, have some money and go. Dan Eave, will Brian Armstrong exit coin base the way that Jesse Powell exited Kraken? Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me to kind of stay out of the line line and just kind of take a break from it all. But I don't know, it seems he might be there for a while. He might be one of these long term. They are the biggest. They've already floated last year or last year. So he went public. Maybe he's going to stay for a while after that. Especially after going public and the share price dipping quite a lot, you probably want to recover it and leaving good standing. But you want to try and at least get the price up more than what you floated out before you try it off into the sunset. Joshua Shigala, your thoughts. Yeah, I don't know. I think you probably had off as well. They're all very wealthy. Both Jesse and Brian now. After a while, the stress is just like, is this worth it or should I try something new? And everyone here, I'm pretty sure everyone listening to the show also have these good ideas. You're going through life. You think, what's really needed is that or this. That would be really cool. That would solve a lot of problems. These guys are very talent now. They've got a lot of resources behind them so they could execute on some of these other ideas that they have. They're not just CEOs. They weren't hired as a CEO. They're co-founders. So they obviously have ideas to sort of try out. And the answer is Brian Armstrong will go down with the ship much like Mark Zuckerberg. He will never leave, not by choice. I haven't even seen the new documentary yet. And I can already tell you with a narcissistic ego worship and we all should be worshiping at the feet of Brian Armstrong who brought us all of our coins, which is true. Brian Armstrong will never leave. I don't know if it's self-made, but Jesse and I didn't have a film crew following us around yet. And Brian did. So he's well ahead of the game. Congratulations to Brian Armstrong who I think will continue to rule at Coinbase. Moving on to issue four, Udi Worthheimer. Bitcoin die hard once upon a time. Hardcore Bitcoin Maximist. Udi Worthheimer now trolls against crypto tribalism. Have fun saying poor and many other famous memes were coined by Worthheimer and spread by others. Die harding Bitcoin showing their maximalism and bragging to the world. But now much like many other Bitcoin heroes, Worthheimer has changed his mind saying that DeFi and NFTs offer opportunities beyond Bitcoin. Joshua Schigalla, what do you think about Worthheimer's change in tactics and beliefs and the contrast with his earlier work? Well, there's very few Bitcoin Maximists that I know that don't have a portfolio of some other projects. And you know me being a technologist, I love technology. I was always Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin. And when I say crypto, I usually refer to Bitcoin meaning crypto. And because all of my friends were also Bitcoin Maxis, I got put a map in that pool. And I do believe that Bitcoin is very, is you know, is very deep to my heart. It is the project that will always keep going, I believe. And it is one of the, it is the most important project in cryptocurrency. But saying that there's just other things that you can't do on Bitcoin. So you know, that's why we're building the standard on Ethereum because we just don't have the upper turns on Bitcoin. The scripting language isn't, isn't fully laid out there. So it is what it is. And I don't, it makes total sense, you know, as a technologist, it's interesting to see other projects. I don't understand tribalism. The real tribalism should be us against Fiat. I mean, you know, it's kind of like, it's kind of like Bitcoin has taken the piss out of Peter Schiff for like never getting on the Bitcoin bandwagon. It's the same thing for Bitcoin has always taken the shit piss out of old coins. You know, and that's also a weird term. But like certain projects that are alternative to Bitcoin. And sort of just shitting on that and going, la la la la la la la. I don't want to hear about it. And so yeah, I think it's ridiculous to be just only one technology. This world is vast and amazing. And you should be interested in a lot of other things. Now that's not to say that Bitcoin isn't freaking awesome. And that's where, you know, a majority of of holdings should be. But yeah, I don't think we should be infighting and stuff. Well, remember to begin with, Udi was trying to live up to a false standard that was set by essentially the enemy of Bitcoin, Vitalik Budrin. Vitalik set this ultimate purity for Bitcoin Maximus and where you couldn't consider another project. You couldn't even, you know, entertain it because it could be a scam and because it wasn't Bitcoin. This is simple and easy to follow just like HODL, but has the same problem with HODL where if you HODLed all the way from the top to the bottom, then you didn't get any. Maybe you need HODL plus profits. In addition to that, maybe you need Bitcoin plus side projects. For example, this morning, I bought a bunch of, I don't think they're valuable, but they were fun. Little NFTs on the wax network, which is a copy of EOS, and I bought Hot Wheels cars for 15 cents a piece. And that's fun, but we don't need a Bitcoin transaction for each one of those. They don't need the ultimate security of the world, and they don't need to be stored for 5,000 years. They can be fun little Hot Wheels cars on their own. And I'm glad to see Udi changed his mind. However, I do remember how hard he went on maximalism, how heavy he was into brutalizing others and attacking and so forth. So it is unfortunately very hypocritical to give that up, to switch to this other side. I've also heard this week from Twitter that Bitcoin, Tina, that TINA is Bitcoin. There is no alternative has capitulated and is selling some or perhaps all of his coins. So the problem with extremism, the further you go out there on being extreme, the harder it is to walk it back if you've made a mistake, and if you're an extremist, you're usually making a mistake. The exception is, of course, true extremists, hardcore fascists who break through the barriers, through the lines and never look back, never step back and reconsider. So just like we've always said with Roger Veer and other people, welcome back Udi, you can be reasonable, but again, he was so unreasonable to so many people for so long, especially that have funds dang poor. It's a nice slogan if you're into Bitcoin and you're feeling comfortable. It's a horrible slogan if you haven't gotten enough Bitcoin if you didn't buy early enough, because now it's just haunting you. Dan Eve, what do you think about the haunting slogans? Is it even worse if you were such a die hard maximist to then change your mind? If you were more middle of the road, more in moderation, all things, maybe it would be so bad. That really was the worst saying, isn't it? Have funds stay in court? Did that was that some sort of paraphrasing of an apparent, what I don't think it was actually but something that Pirateo said from a South Park episode or something? To me, it seems like it has a lot of roots in the Satoshi quote, which I think was to Dan Lermer, the founder of EOS, and some of these other projects where he said, if you don't understand it, I don't have time to explain it to you. Something like that, that kind of dismissive, pithy, very quickness. I think there's something about that, and then you mix in the financial element, and you say, have funds staying poor, which is really just the biggest flex and brag from someone in a Lambo who probably started off doing pretty well in a Toyota Corolla or something. It's not like you went from a Corolla to a Lambo, you didn't go from feet, dirt socks to having a car. It's an easier step. But what do you think about the hypocriticalness of how funds staying poor? Well, I think that's saying. I thought it was really bad, because it also, it flew in the face of when I first started learning about Bitcoin about how it could change the world for the unbanked. As we said before, the situation has slightly changed now. It can still happen for via lightning, but as a base layer, it's obviously a bit more difficult. But yeah, I know, it was a really kind of, it had an arrogance to it that I just really couldn't stand. But I think it's honourable when people change their position. The fact is that anyone who can evaluate how they've been thinking and changed direction, and especially someone who was so hardcore as a Bitcoiner, it's interesting to see people turning, rather than just sticking, staying with their guns, even though they've got this cognitive dissonance that some Bitcoiners, I speak to, and you know, they're itching to buy a shit itching to, but they're just the principles. And the fact is that Bitcoin is money, and I've never seen, although you can pick a few cherry pick, a few examples of people saying that Ethereum is money, but largely most people that I speak to, they don't see Ethereum as money. They see it as something that's like, they see it as gas, they see it as they use Ethereum rather than, they're hodling it, right? They use it to buy, to buy, you know, to buy NFTs to, they use it as gas to stake, you know, any dollars when they're coming out of Bitcoin or any other assets. So, it's not all about, yeah, I don't know, it's not, it's not all about being, being money, you can't satisfy everyone, you know, there's, you people will do other stuff, whether you like it or not, you don't like NFTs, well, someone else is going to like them, you don't like, you know, you don't like DeFi, someone else is going to do it, yeah, there's going to be scams, but unfortunately that's just, there's scams in everything you do, there's scams in using PayPal, there's scams in, anything for the postal service, right? How many postal service things do you get pretending to be a, you know, to be someone delivering to you and they're trying to get your money in some way? So, you're going to get scams and fraud and everything, and I think going back to what we said at the beginning of the show, the government should be doing more to educate people on scams, and in everything you do, not just cryptocurrencies, not just finding a good investment and weeding out the scams, weeding out the bullshit in every industry, anything, anything you go to, your people are going to bullshit you in some way, and you're not going to get the right straight answer and you need to weed out to this certain information, and you need to learn that in everything, whether you're putting money into something as an investment or whether you just want to buy a product that doesn't turn out to be horseshit. So, ultimately, you know, Bitcoin is, it's money, it's money and it's going to change the financial system as we know, and it's doing a great job of doing at the moment, and Ethereum's like for doing funny stuff, right? It's Bitcoin money, Ethereum, funny, simple as that. Exit question, Bitcoin, maximalism. I think what we're really trying to say here is that to the new people we're saying Bitcoin is truth and it's amazing, but you won't really understand it at first. So, we have this kind of shortcut called maximalism, where we'll put you into the maximum camp for a while, and you can think about Bitcoin, and this will keep you safe from all the scams and other things that you might find, but it also might keep you safe from incredible profits or the ability to express yourself creatively or learn some smart contracts, but giving that stuff up is worth it because it keeps you safe from scams. So, the question is should, and then eventually, once you've figured it all out, then you can be kind of this person that knows the truth, this cosmic being that can go out there and make your own choices where you're like a 15 cent NFT won't destroy my Bitcoin hodl. Like, it will be fun. I could send it to a friend. Josh, wish it all. Do you think we should continue to have this kind of Bitcoin maximalism to protect the newbies, or does the hard-core nature of this maximalism? It's at its necessity that it must be like a religion, that it must be enforced, that it must have heretics like Udi who used to burn people at the stake, and now is being burned at the stake. Should we continue to use this maximalism? Josh, you muted though. Oh, man, it's God damn free world. That's what I try to live at anyway. And if I'm reading a bit to see Moon guy, he loves Bitcoin. He's only ever going to hold Bitcoin. He's never going to buy any oats, and that's fantastic. That's great. I just go for it. I think it's really, really, it's probably the smartest thing you can do. It's just, I have a fascination about other little projects, or I want to do fun little NFT things, or like, for instance, when we do our community chat, we give our way, these proof of attendance NFTs, and this is fun little thing, and it's a great little marketing gag and stuff. It's technology, and what I don't like is the toxic side of people attacking each other. We saw in the scaling debate that go to retarded levels, where we really saw really talented core developers having so much crap slung at them that they left the industry. And these were very, very, very talented, lovely people. And sometimes in a way that they're so ridiculously good at coding, they're still in their 50s living with their parents, because they can't handle the world. So when they got this massive onslaught of pain thrown at them through this toxicity, it's really bad. So that's the only thing I don't like about extremeist tribalism is this toxic nature of it. But man, if you are only going to buy one asset, then just buy one asset. That's great. Good on you. I've just never understood really the whole I'm going to slag on anyone that holds any other stocks or shares, or I hold only Apple shares, screver on that's Microsoft shares, you know, I just never understood it. Like, you know, Microsoft's got its place, Apple's got its place. There is something about the extremism, though, that helps you stick to a routine or something you want to practice. You're like, I only eat meat, or I only don't eat meat. It's a lot simpler to do that than to do like 70% vegetarian or 90% vegetarian. I only eat meat on Fridays. So from a Bitcoin perspective, I can see what they're saying. It's very, very simple to say no altcoins ever. If you do start to think about an altcoin, even just one for fun, like I bought a bunch of, you know, 15 cent NFTs, the only value they have is they show up in my binder, my collection. They have collectors value. But it is kind of a short cut. It does, you could miss out on opportunities. Then again, Bitcoin is the truth, right? I mean, it's just about how do we get people to this idea of Bitcoin is the truth? A lot of times, and we're getting all religious here, they have to walk their own path. They have to lose money, they have to get scammed, they have to do whatever. And some of these altcoins are fun and light, other ones are not fun. And even the fun ones you can lose your shirt, you could lose all your money. Damn, what do you think? Go ahead, Josh. Go ahead. This is the problem that I've seen of, I've mentioned on the show before, that when when people call out everything as a scam, then when there is a scam, like when one coin comes out and everyone's shouting that one coins are scam and Ethereum is a scam as well, then they're like, well, Ethereum is not a scam, there's thousands of people working on it and that's legit. And as I can see, it's working and and stuff. And one kind literally is a scam. They don't have a product that don't have anything, they're just scamming people. That really fools people and blurs the lines between what's an actual scam and what's just an experiment in the space. And that's what's really, it's really important. It is very, it's hard to see whether it's a failed experiment, an over promised experiment, or a scam that was set up beforehand to take your money, or if it just became one of those things along the way. We never know the whole story if we're not there. But Dan, what do you think about Bitcoin maximalism as a bit extremist, but as maybe like a bootcamp for new users that we send the new users through this bootcamp, it keeps them safe for a little while. Maybe they avoid some scams, maybe they hoddle some some strong Bitcoin, and they certainly get a chance to learn about this amazing technology Bitcoin, which is truth and amazing. But how do you how do you explain something someone such a technology that's so complex and amazing? Well, the thing is that Bitcoin is more than it's money, but it's more than money, right? It's the philosophy of, you know, you get into like the existing systems that we're using and the pitfalls of those systems and how they have such a control over the society and how that's only getting worse with the invention of CBDCs. It's almost like a, yeah, and if CBDCs get get implemented, then things are going to get more monitored, more controlled, and worse for people than being able to use cash, which is a sad a sad state, and it doesn't seem like it's going that way. But it seems like our banking system, at first it was on cocaine, and then they invented crack. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think with that, you're going to get more of, instead of maximumism dying down, you're going to get more maximalists. I think that's that situation is only going to grow because as much as we're saying that the maximalist, the toxic, what's really toxic is the financial system as it currently has evolved and what it's evolved into. And so as that grows in power and strength and the the galactic force of central banks only becomes more controlling and crazy, you're going to see the adverse reaction to that from the Bitcoin aside. I don't think that there'll ever be Bitcoin as maximalism holding hands with Ethereum and other coins to fight the banking industry. There's still going to be infighting as there is inside of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is hitting on Ethereum, then there's Bitcoin cash is hitting on Bitcoin and Bitcoin ABC. There's always going to be that infighting. And there's always going to be that really kind of funny and almost a bit like, I don't know, a bit pathetic fighting on the insiders to who's the biggest maximalist? Who can say the most nasty thing about non-biccoiners, and who can get the biggest likes and shares from being mean to other people that have bought Ethereum as well as Bitcoin? There's always going to be lots of that. And I think, yeah, it's only going to grow with time and it needs to in order to counter the central banking system. Josh Eagala, what do you think? Will we see more Maxis and more importantly, how upset will the Maxis be by my Buddhist description of maximalism as just another stage along the path towards crypto enlightenment, not the final stage? Competition, maximalism. Yeah, I think it's a good analogy, but I don't know if it's true because I think most people coming to crypto nowadays from an old, actually, and then they eventually get wrecked and then they find Bitcoin. So I think it's the other way around. But yeah, I do feel that reading through the chat here, and by the way, people, if you're not on the chat, where are you? Because it's awesome. We have people, propaganda, is always there. I want to put them in the ring. I want to put you in the ring, man. BTC Moon Guy, Jay Deluxe, good to see you around as well, Louis. But yeah, saying that you know, a lot of people, studio, know about Lightning Network, I think that it's in beta or it doesn't work or whatever. And he's right. And my answer just now was that that Bitcoin was the very first. So it didn't have all the little nuances figured out, and a lot of the olds have tweaked stuff. And now the original idea was, well, the olds are like a testnet. So whatever is really good will be brought into Bitcoin. But the problem that we saw was that no one wants to hide fork Bitcoin. And I think that's a good thing. I think it's good that Bitcoin stays Bitcoin. It does what it does really well. We had now, pardon me, some soft forks to allow us for segwit and now Lightning. So we can do second layer stuff. But but things like having a treasury for like all the reward going to the miners in Bitcoin, rather than having the ability for some of it to get like on dash, for instance, not that I don't know what's happening to that project. But I looked at it in ages. But dash, for instance, started allowing miners to get paid, but also have it build a treasury to be able to have people voting on, you know, marketing ideas or ways to get the message out, paying meetup people. And so having not everything going to miners and securing the network. And I always found that it's a great idea. And so yeah, I do believe that there are other experiments that are not going to getting them out, made it into Bitcoin. And it's unfortunate because in one way, because I do feel that, you know, there should be education about that. And quite frankly, I feel like people like Michael Salah, who is obviously extremely well off would do well in maybe putting a bit more money into helping Bitcoin market things like the Lightning network. It really is a miracle, Josh, that Bitcoin survived and prospered and that you at home heard about it, even though Bitcoin didn't have any of those shared mining pools, it didn't pay any YouTubers, it didn't pay any meetup people, nothing like that. It was just all people who thought it was a good technology, something that could bank the unbank and so forth that they adopted it and spent their own time promoting it. Spoiler alert, NFTs and altcoins are the greatest advertisements ever for Bitcoin, but Bitcoiners hate them. Moving on to issue five, issue five, growth of Bitcoin ATMs installed globally, stalls for the first time in history. We'd hope to have Martin here for this issue, but as you can see from this chart, Bitcoin ATMs growth, which is off the hook, less than 10K in 2018, 19 and 20, hitting 10K in 2021, then exploding to almost 40,000 installations in 2022. However, it looks like it's topped, maybe it's just the Bitcoin bear market. Dan, leave your thoughts on crypto ATM growth and has it stopped or slowed. It seems to be according to the numbers of installations, it seems to have slowed down a bit, but not only are we banked, smacked bank in the middle of the harvining cycle, there's perhaps some of the reasons why initially Bitcoin ATMs exploded in growth, it was because of the fact that it was a lot harder to buy Bitcoin back in the days. Now, you've got a lot more services online to buy them from, so there's more eat or it's just as easy for someone to actually buy Bitcoin via a virus and online services, it is to go into a local ATM. Also, regulations have been very heavy handed recently in the UK. They said shut down, you've got to shut down all your ATMs, which is which crucified the ATM industry in the UK. So it's just one of those industries that's not industries, but sectors that's a lot easier to clamp down on. We've said before about shutting down on mining is even quite difficult because if you've got an off-grid power supply, then it's difficult to get to assess the traffic, there's actually going towards Bitcoin mining. If you're running at ATMs, you literally have to plonk them physically in a shop and you can have people literally see the ATM in the shop and WM. So it's something that's a lot easier to clamp down on because it's something that's physically there. And I think that probably scares a lot of shop owners as well. As much as Bitcoin still enjoyed a lot of positive press recently, aside from price aside, but from the actual good things that Bitcoin can do as money and functionally, there's still a lot of probably fud going around about the fact that Bitcoin can still be banned in some way. And so shop owners don't want to take that risk as much as perhaps they used to do because the risk reward was a lot bigger back then. So I think it's still going to grow. It's just going to pick up again, I think, on the way to the more closer to the harvining. And yes, so for now, it's just kind of a pause. Plus, the other thing is that when a market gets saturated, you know, centred back in the day, there were too much fewer Bitcoin ATM companies. Now there's quite a number of them. So the competition gets more fierce. Then you've got the not only if you've got the bear market, but a massive increase in competition means that your profit margins are squeezed. So then you've got companies that will have to slow down their installations because the market is saturated in certain areas. So kind of, you know, there's a lot of factors involved, I think, but yeah, but I think the growth will pick up again. It just reaches that natural point where you can't just keep on going up forever without a kind of a pullback. It is funny Bitcoin being such an online currency. People are always like, why do you need an ATM? Why do you need a physical location? If it's this amazing digital money? And it turns out when trading cash for Bitcoin, whereas credit cards and other things can be canceled, cash can't. So if you get the cash and it's in the box, you can send them the Bitcoin safely. And this technique and this technology had helped a lot of people get their first satoshis. And some people even get anonymous satoshis. So shout out to Martin Wishmare in general bites as well as our friend Michael Dupree and easy bit for helping so many people get their first Bitcoins through these ATMs. If you were unsure about Coinbase or even before that, we had strange ways you had to get Bitcoin going to an ATM trading some dollars for some stats right there has always seemed like a good idea. So I think it's exciting to see the incredible growth of the chart. It's sad to see it slow down, but it's probably just like Dan said, a part of the bear market and a part of perhaps over saturation getting too excited during the bull market. Josh, a gole, what do you think about Bitcoin ATMs and the possible slowdown of their growth? Well, I mean, it's an interesting one. There's definitely a lot of flat-wing through it and from a whole lot of regulators who are seeing, like Dan mentioned, the FCA really good hard and pretty much outlaw them. Then you also, yeah, the competitions going crazy online. So I'm actually waiting for the time when normal ATMs get switched on. It's just a software upgrade really. A lot of ATMs have also got inputs. I also really like what Ben Arx building. He's building an open source ATM where people can build them from component parts, really cool stuff, including offline. So a really interesting way of doing offline lightning transactions into an ATM. But yeah, I don't know. Martin should answer this one. I think the Bitcoin ATMs will continue growing and we'll look at this later as just a bend before another climb. I agree with Josh. I think the inherent pressure is there for the normal ATM industry to get on on this. It's free money. It's another source of fees and percentages. So I don't know how long with this will last. But I do just again thank the incredible pioneers in all of these industries, both Kraken, Coinbase, BitInstant, EasyBit, GeneralBytes, all of these people, SlushPool, all of these things help create the Bitcoin economy that we have today. So whether we still use those tools or not doesn't mean that they weren't useful when we needed them. We're running out of time. Dan, Eve, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Go ahead. I'm going to turn this around. I'm going to turn this around because I like Josh's suggestion in terms of a question. Who is the next? I'm going to ask you questions here. So because I'm unprepared, I'm going to ask you guys a question, which is who is the next Bitcoiner to a maximalist to turn into a kind of not so maximalist? Yeah. Josh, do you want to take this one first? Actually, I want the people in the chat to tweet their answers out. Let them know. Hashtag, the Bitcoin show, the Bitcoin group. I think it'll be... I mean, Tone's already, you know, Tonebase as much as he goes on back Bitcoin maximalism. He's always showing charts for ETH and gold and everything else. So I think he's that sold on it. I've had many a conversation about different projects with Tone here and there over the years. There was one project that he liked, which is very close to a proof of attendance thing. It was some sort of NFT to let you into a club or something like that that he likes. Because I asked him, what is an altcoin that you actually like Tone? Come on. But anyway, yeah, I think it'll probably... Maybe Tone. I don't know if I can pick an actual person, but I do think it's going to be all about the price. They're going to talk about how low the price was, how they never thought it could get this low, how it broke all of their charts and their triangles, and that it's absolutely hopeless. That there's no way that Bitcoin could ever go back up so that they have no choice. They're selling and they're telling you right after they sold. They're never going to tell you before they sold. They're always going to tell you after. It's not interesting. But we'll have to see, like they say, if you grow old long enough, you'll get to see all your heroes turn lousy, something like that. Josh Tagala, do you have a prediction or a story of the week after Dan's incredible turn about question? Hey, actually, I just want to give a shout out to BTC Moon Guy, remember? It was on Twitter. There's always BTC Moon Guy would come in and say to the Moon. What was the question? Sorry, I was busy on the chat. To the moon, prediction or story of the week running out of time. Okay, sorry guys, sorry. Prediction is, well, the story of the week, actually, we have some announcements from us over at the standard. We have some user interface updates on the beta. Claiming and staking is now possible on the beta, which is on the test nets, all test nets stuff at the moment. And really, we'd love people to come and test and check it out. And yeah, adding about sections and stuff like that, some back end contract fixes on the smart contracts, some calculations and stuff like that. So there's a whole bunch of really cool little updates. Join us on our little journey to create the ultimate stablecoin protocol. And hopefully it'll be cross-chain minting so we can mint Ubuntu, RGB on the Lightning Network, and stuff like that. So there's interesting stuff for the BTC Maxmas as well. When CoinMarkiCAP? Yeah, yeah, it'll be soon enough. Basically, we haven't been focused on all the stuff like that. We've just been focused on sort of putting together the tech and also the community, really building the community out, building the Dow out. So now we're starting to work on Dwork, which is really cool because it allows us to put bounties up and in the local, in the member government's token as well as stablecoins so that people can actually pay their rent as well as take part in the project. But yeah, so that's really exciting to see that and grow that out from the core team out to further people here. I just want to give a shout out to all the Bitcoin conferences that are going on. I know we missed Baltic Honey Badger in Riga coming up soon is HTTP in Prague. They've also got BTC Azores going off this week on a small island off the coast of Portugal, where my ancestors are from. We've got Bitcoin Amsterdam coming up in a few weeks. I think La Bitcoin, La Bitcoin in Latin America. If you're down there, check that one out. And there's even a historical NFT convention happening in Barcelona. Shout out to Theo Goodman who will be there. And to the Nakamoto Pepe, one of 300 with just sold again for 90 Ethereum. That's a around $180,000 for the Nakamoto Pepe. So very cool stuff still happening in NFTs and Bitcoin despite it being a bear market. But thanks again to everybody for giving us a thumbs up down below, push subscribe. And until next time, bye.