I'm taking a photo. I'm taking too long to take it. You're like, I'm smiling. I think it's working. Excellent connection. That's me. The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, then Ark from LNBits. That all. Josh Shigala from Vault, Toro. This is the face the hedge fund manages pool when a guy called potato on your ass takes all your money. I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one issue one Bitcoin process. Iser sailor says over 1000 firms join webinar. Michael sailor says he sees an avalanche of companies moving their cash into Bitcoin over the next 12 months. The chief executive officer of micro strategy incorporated and Bitcoin profitisers made the projection of his company's world now global conference that featured breakout sessions on the future of Bitcoin and how corporations can best position themselves to capitalize on the digital token. According to sailor 1400 corporations signed up for the session on Bitcoin legal considerations. Ben Ark is Michael sailor and his conference good for Bitcoin. His use of colorful language is good for Bitcoin. He's got some nice side. My favorite one he said was that the he's ready for the ocean of asset liquidity. It's about to pour into the pond of Bitcoin, the small pond of Bitcoin. So I very much like the way he turns a phrase, but the yeah, it was a good conference. Congratulations to him and they made some very good points for us. We should be saying for years that all businesses if they've got a fear on their part of that on their books, then they should diversify some of that into Bitcoin. Just a small percentage that it just makes sense and now for businesses who want to. You know, they can't trust their local fear sovereign currency because they're worried about things like hyperinflation. Then yeah, Bitcoin is a ever more appealing asset for them to diverse into so that seemed to be the general theme. Although there was a whole bunch of like breakout sessions and is a very well organized conference event. But I know a bunch of businesses who attended it and they're very excited about it. What's great about it is Michael Sayler, kind of, you know, is a bridge to kind of legacy finance and he's a legitimate actor in that world. He's not one of his crazy Bitcoiners. So when he says, you know, this is something you guys should be taking seriously and you should be securing your wealth in this thing. Then they're going to listen to him, which is, you know, overall good for Bitcoin. Because then eventually these companies which have some, have, you know, part of their portfolio in Bitcoin will then think, well, how can we improve the price of Bitcoin? How can we help Bitcoin grow, which is what everyone does when they own a little bit Bitcoin. They want to contribute back in some way. So these companies will then hopefully offer services and products and things which you can do with Bitcoin. So yeah, good for Bitcoin. Modern Mr. Sayler. Well, I am one of those crazy Bitcoiners and I think we're just moving too fast here. We tried it like Ben said, these are very good points like we've been saying for years and it's too bad that no one ever listened to us. I wish that more normal people would listen to us. I know some people are still fighting ahead. People like the Bitcoin or the Black Bitcoin billionaires on Clubhouse. They're running a million Satoshi drive to try to get everyone in their group to get a million Satoshi's, get them on a hardware wallet and just hold them. I guess until they're worth a million dollars. I don't know. I wish more normal people would have gotten in. I see how much success he's had organizing the corporations and I see everyone in the community waving for it. But I also feel more like it's waving goodbye. Like goodbye Bitcoin. Like it's a ship sailing away and the corporations are up on the top deck and they're like, oh, this is some lovely Bitcoin you brought us from the internet. Thank you internet. Thank you for your lovely Bitcoin. Goodbye now. Goodbye. Josh, good go. It's just it's it's it's just that exponential knock on effect. So you know, there's that experiment you can do with it's like Domino's bigger and bigger Domino's where you take a feather and you knock over a little Domino. There's a slightly bigger block and a slightly bigger block and it moves up. And after like I think it's any elaborate iterations or something you can like knock over a skyscraper. You say that you've been screaming at a brick wall but you haven't. You've been you know for years, you know, every week you've been doing these shows. And it has had influence and it has impacted people and then eventually ends up on the years of someone like Michael Saylor. And then he goes and knocks. Then the next, you know, layer of people with this big block. So yeah, I didn't I wouldn't feel like you haven't contributed to getting Bitcoin out there in the world. I mean, Gene Simmons follows you for God's sake. That's too welcome to Gene Simmons of Kiss who now follows the world crypto network. Yeah, I think we've done a little bend like we pushed it out there and certainly a lot of other people have made their own podcasts, their own videos. Everyone's tried in their own way to spread the word about Bitcoin. But it just seems like it's happened so fast and I wish we could have gotten more people in. If only we'd had another downturn or another upturn or another chance, you know, before it went crazy. Now it feels like it's gone so crazy that it's never going to go back to the normal person could buy Bitcoin range. We are completely in the only the crazy rich can buy Bitcoin. Well, that's all true. That's that's that's the problem. Everyone and that's why I'm really a big fan of denominating in bits or sat. I think bits are even better with your single points because you can just say like 29 bits and 32 sat. You know, it sort of rolls off the tongue nicely. I like it but I don't know, people have their problems with it. But yeah, I mean, people have done so much over this period of time over the years and and I think we've got to all take a hats off to the people that that weren't the Michael sailors. The problem that I see with this whole Michael sailor thing is that his deal is to make the number go up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. And that's fine, but it should be the technology that gets better and better. And I really wish that if Michael put maybe, you know, 200 mil or whatever, I don't know, matter like two mil. Inter some developers to develop the lightning network stuff. I think would really help his portfolio grow a lot more than just pumping more money and having more demand from these big players because at the end of the day, this technology needs to keep, you know, the people building this technology who are sitting in their in their mom's basement. Other ones that need need to eat, need to survive and need to keep working way and beavering away. While yeah, Michael sailor brings in the big money, the big brains need to be fed that keep on building on this. And I think it's such an important thing to remember that we need to support the developers of cool projects in this space. Well, and that's the way I feel Josh is very easy to feel cynical about this to see sailor putting so much money in. And because now he's put all this money in, it's worth his time to run a conference like this. It's worth his time to talk about it all the time. Previously, sailor was mocking Bitcoin like the rest of us. I can't help thinking even even with Gene Simmons of Kiss who says he put seven figures into Bitcoin and six figures into Dogecoin. God knows why. But I can't help feeling how much more they could have gotten five years ago, how much more they could have gotten, you know, eight years ago, they just, they weighed and they weighed and they weighed until it's already established. And then they come in. And yes, he has no interest in the technology. He doesn't think it's a currency. A friend of mine was telling me how Bitcoin wasn't a currency. Yesterday, now I was like, well, you can send it over the, you know, you can send it anywhere, one directional, and it works. They can cash it out. How is the dollar better? How is a piece of paper or some coins better or in any way comparative? Like it's like comparing a CD to an MP3. An MP3 created iTunes created Amazon music, all these YouTube music, all these services. What did the CD create? A pile of CDs like go to eBay, try to buy a CD, there's lots of CDs available. And it's very easy for someone to sit in a, in a Western society and say, yeah, but I mean, we have as part of the Valtteri team, we've got one Venezuelan woman, we've got a woman from Iran, a graphic designer and working with us here in Berlin. And you know, these people tell you all the time about the pain, the absolute suffering in their own lands, that hyperinflation is brought and this ridiculous fiat system that just allows governments to keep printing money. I don't know where, keep, you know, instead of, hey, well, let's not tax people. Let's just print this not. I mean, how is, I'd rather flip the question and say, how is the USD or a currency anymore? They can just print as much as they want. And the thing is, once you start into crypto, once you start in Bitcoin, that's when you start to take note of inflation. That's when you start to take note of of how, how many coins are they? Like, if you're looking at some of these old coins and projects, the first thing you do is go, what's the inflation rate, how much, you know, start, what's the technology, what's the, what are they, what's the problem they're trying to like, where is the USD? It's like, well, we don't know, we don't know, none of it, we don't know, they could just print print print print. I'm not even sure if it matters for these projects anymore, Josh trying to understand them through inflation or a number of units. I mean, all of these things were true about Ethereum, endless number of units, obvious pre-mine, potential for inflation. And it didn't matter. The price went up anyway. Look at all this DeFi stuff. No one really knows what it is, what's going on, and the price is going up anyway. So, uh, sinecly, I think, say, there's a here at the right time. He's here for the price to go up. And as much as it might hurt for all the people who went up and down and lost their money and won their money and won it back and lost it again, it looks like sailor and the football player are here and that the price will never go down again. And it just goes up forever. These guys have been touched. I mean, so for me, you know, the one Bitcoin was tracking the share price last year. I kind of, I find that concerning. But now it's clearly being used as a hedge against uncertainty. People are finding that it's, you know, something of a rock they can cling to in uncertain times. And to me, that's kind of one of Bitcoin's biggest selling points. And, you know, it's fine if Michael or sailor wants to use it for that as well. And if you want to use it as digital gold, like just by using it as for one function, doesn't mean it can't fulfill a whole bunch of other functions. And maybe, you know, commerce is the niche. You know, I'm paying for servers and ominously through something like BitCloud or Luna node and, uh, and getting a host, but a domain name on something like a H names, which you can pay for on Bitcoin on Lightning Network. And it's an ominous like maybe those services which are available for commerce, maybe that is still our niche when these big rich, you know, big portfolios are investing in Bitcoin as a store of wealth and to hedge against uncertainty. But I don't feel too negative about it. I feel like it's, it's, you know, to Bitcoin strength. And when these legitimate actors and not just as freaky hackers and weird, you know, crypto, it, it infuse the asks are interested in Bitcoin. One, these legitimate people out there within the legacy world, when they're, when they're integrating Bitcoin and engaging with Bitcoin, it legitimizes it for other people. And even just in the new cycle, you see more positive, you know, Bitcoin sort of talked about in a more positive like so. And I'm enjoying that very much. But yeah, if they want to use it for that function, they can use it for that function and we'll carry on making our weird commerce Lightning Network things. I think Ben's onto something there and it builds into the exit question. Exit question is the Bitcoin Trojan horse still intact? Is it being carried with inside the walls of Troy? Josh Jagala? Yeah, until it until it unleashes more of a fungible aspect, more of a privacy aspect, it's definitely the Trojan. Oh, we can control this, we can follow everything, we can, we can control everything and then all of a sudden we'll get taproot and some of these other things in there and there will be a lot more fun. I definitely think that that it's one of these Trojans because look, a lot of people don't realize how powerful it is. So maybe it's not a Trojan to some aspects of the state or to some aspects of the banking system. But a lot of people I think don't understand it's a Trojan. They're getting in it because it's number goes up technology. But really when you step back and in a few years you realize, wow, we've just sucked value away from Wall Street and we've sucked value away from the Federal Reserve, actually, of the world, the Federal Reserve, the different central banks and allowed people to secure value. And I'm still waiting for the day that we start to see and I'm pretty sure it's already happened, but certain countries, just people just start rapidly borrowing to put their money into crypto to then not care whether they get a black mark against their name, not investment advice folks. But this is definitely going to happen. These are sorts of things that could blacks one events that could basically destroy small economies and just not like not the economy sorry, it would destroy the state apparatus of controlling currency in those countries. The economy would probably boom in those areas where people start to actually hold value and keep value. But they wouldn't care about matter blocks black mark because usually how the credit system now works is that they take up too much credit, they default on it and then the state just just takes or the banks just take your assets, take your house, take your car, take your beanbags and take your TV. And so with Bitcoin they can't do that and I think that leads into another story that I do wonder Josh if they realize the trap that they're in and that yes for every time that the central banks print more money, the Bitcoiners respond by not printing any more Bitcoin and that we're not going to print any more Bitcoin and that there's this cycle happening now where the more money and wealth they put into their markets, the less Bitcoin it can buy. Every time the bank prints more money to buy Bitcoin, they get less and less satoshi's. So I think that's still intact. No one talks about it. No one mentions it. Michael sailors not out there like we're going to trick the banks into buying Bitcoin, which is going to destroy their currency and make Bitcoin into a currency. No one seems to be saying that, but I still believe it's there. I still believe it's happening. It's happening without us. The horse is beyond us now that Trojans are pulling with a big rope as Greeks. We've already left or we're inside the beast and yeah it's beyond our control. Like they're going to take it inside the walls. Maybe they're going to have a big bonfire. Maybe they're going to just leave it there like a statue and our guys are going to creep out in the middle of the night, open up the walls and suddenly the ships are back and Troj Troj falls. So we'll have to see what happens. Ben, Ark, let's see if you can unmute yourself. Gonna need some special hardware power. All right. How's that going? Good. I'm using it. Ben, what do you think? Yeah, it's the Trojan horse. Play with just the digital gold. Just play with this fine. Just put money into it's fine. Don't worry about it. I mean, before they know it, their entire financial system has been infected with this free and open source money. What's free and open source value storage system? Whatever you want to call it. It's just like an operating system, you know, for a long time, proprietary operating systems dominated. And then this little guppy, this little plucky Linux system started to emerge and the big corporations, the Microsoft and Apple, they were terrified of this thing, even though it's just being maintained and built by a whole bunch of people, you know, hackers who aren't being paid and maybe a couple of paid employees like Eleanor's Toe of Ols and the guy that's around there was for Genesee Allen Cox. But they went on to then become the dominant operating system for servers and more and more Linux is being used for, desktop computers and laptops and all of we're orbiting Android on our phone. And Linux is the Trojan, the free and open source alternative, the Trojan is well established within our society and now Microsoft is in fact the biggest free and open source contributor on the planet. So I think that'll happen that you won't completely dissolve fear currency and the legacy financial system, but it will be strong armed into behaving by Bitcoin just as we've seen with operating systems. And I think that's John Lush's premise as well as the the ideal money would be the eventual money we end up with when it has like competitor, which is outside of the reach and are, you know, the control of government. So yeah, the Trojan is is infecting, you know, and this is why we should be, we shouldn't we shouldn't feel nostalgic and sad and cynical about these big players coming into Bitcoin. We should be like, yeah, I'm going to encourage them, come on. Put some more of your money into Bitcoin. So it goes. Here, I've been there used to call Linux people communists or communists. And now they all work for leftists. IBM, copy leftists. Yes, I was short that said, see, and had things like that for years. Super fun. But not anymore. Now we're mainstream. Moving on to issue two issue two paypal fourth quarter transaction revenue rose 11.8% since adding crypto customers who bought crypto through PayPal have been logging in twice as much as they were before the payments giant said once again, why did PayPal wait so long to do this? We talked about PayPal for years. We were even talking about PayPal on this show back when cryptocurrency was still a thing and hadn't exit scanned with all the money. We thought that PayPal could buy cryptocurrency or become another cryptocurrency, offering people all the fun of hundreds or even thousands of altcoins. And now both PayPal and Coinbase and presumably all the other services will eventually resemble what cryptocurrency once was such a parody of PayPal and crypto. It's finally here. Josh Shigala is PayPal a good thing for crypto now that they're having such success. Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, back in the day, Bitwala was the only way to get money onto Mt. Gawks. Bitwala was trying to be a PayPal, a different competitor. It was like, nobody knew this thing. No one knew what the hell bitwala really. There's probably no one knows now. But for a moment there, they got really famous in this space because the news we're talking about them because Bitcoin was being talked about. And it was still very niche, of course. It wasn't as no one knew me streamers now, but it definitely lifted that brand up like crazy. And PayPal, I don't know why they waited this long. I guess the problem with PayPal is that they have to deal. They just didn't want to ruin relationships with major banks. And instead, they really, you know, they waited for all these startups, all these trailblazers like ourselves and like the companies we've worked for in this space to take on the big boys. You know, we really struggled in this industry to try and get partners. We had a team of people constantly onboarding, but like we'd always get a bank shut down and we'd have to start a new one. And it was just, it was very, very hard. And PayPal just went, no, no. And now when everyone, you know, can quite easily do it, the regulators are on board. They're like, yeah, okay, we're all so hip and cool. You know, I think try to stick with exchanges that are trailblazed. The other thing that really grinds my gears is that you can't withdraw your Bitcoin. You can't withdraw your Ethereum or whatever you're buying on there. You can just buy the price. So basically, you're buying a derivative, I think. I don't know. Like, I mean, I'm not sure. They say you're not. They say you're buying the thing and they should be. But you could just as well be buying the price. It would be very risky for them to do. But you could be buying the price and then they just sell the price onto someone who wants to buy and just set up a market, order book full of prices. Now we'll see. We'll see. I would like to see them actually deliver crypto. I'd like to see their wallets. They've got enough money. They should be really tapping into the chipsets, the secure chipsets on phones that allow you to hold private keys. PayPal should really trailblaze this spot. They've got enough money. Again, they should be supporting the developers in this space. They're the ones that have built this technology. There's some amazing people. You know, young kids really literally in the hills of Myanmar were building little applications on this. And these people can be employed to build cool stuff for PayPal. I really would like to see the Lightning Network. You know, what PayPal have done is kind of token efforts. Like, yeah, we know except crypto. Come on guys. Put the Lightning Network in there. Let's start transacting. Let's start moving this stuff. Integrate with some chat apps to be able to pay for chat. Integrate with some email. Hey, let's pay PayPal. How about this? We fix email and make it that if you want to send Josh an email, two sats need to come with that email for me to be able to open it. Hey, why don't we do that? Hey, why don't we use that protocol? Why don't we use the, what is it? 406 payment payment needed? Like, come on, PayPal. Actually do some real stuff. Don't just, we know, let you buy Bitcoin. Screw you. There's plenty of places we can buy Bitcoin at. Come on, do some real work. I agree with Josh. I think what PayPal has done is incredibly boring, but it's great for adoption. Instead of telling people to go to some weird coin base or some kind of cash app they've never used before, you say, hey, go to PayPal and you can buy Bitcoin and they say, I already have a PayPal account. I've already put my driver's license in. I already connected it to my credit card or my bank account. All of these steps are gone. So you can really go from zero to a hundred bucks worth of Bitcoin, just like that. And like Josh said, yeah, they can't take it out, which is good and bad. So if they get hacked, maybe it can't be taken away. Of course, we know PayPal is famous for freezing your account. So get ready for a whole nother round of they froze his Bitcoin on PayPal stories. Bitcoin is unfreezeable. How did this happen? And again, it's just about PayPal controlling your keys. But still for a normal person to get in, to get their first 10 bucks, to get their first 100 bucks, you could go to PayPal right now and just buy it. I did it a month ago. I don't remember what happened, but there's 10 bucks worth of Bitcoin there. And someday maybe I come back and it's more than our cure thoughts. I'm you. They're good on me. I'm waiting for the the news article Bitcoin destroys PayPal because maybe they are holding the Bitcoin and then their keys get hacked. And so many people buy Bitcoin that suddenly they haven't got any money. It's all the Bitcoin gets hacked and taken out of PayPal. But yeah, I mean, you're not buying Bitcoin, I suppose, if you can't take it out, you just just I don't know, like Josh says, I could derivative or something or you know, the promise to pay the bearer. So it's not and it isn't too exciting. PayPal have always been pretty sluggish and crappy on development. I don't know if you remember using PayPal a few years ago. It's still like it was something out of the 90s. They did kind of have the monopoly on payments online payments through their they were they bought out by eBay quite early on. Yeah, eBay. So they did kind of have that monopoly pretty early on. And then they had sort of service development. But I will always, you know, I won't do the same rant I did last week about DigiCash and Ego, but obviously to begin with PayPal did want to be something more than just a settlement layer for transactions. It wanted to be like a digital currency over the internet for more 4024 or to style payment required solution. And they weren't able to be that. And now there is this technology which allows them to be that. And yeah, they should innovate. But yeah, they're boring. That's a lot of issues. They've had them monopoly on online payments for such a long time that I don't think they really care. They're just, you know, their customers want Bitcoin. So they're providing Bitcoin as a service. I do like the idea of all these people with their PayPal accounts like checking the price of their Bitcoin stash like logging in on their phones like, oh, how much is it worth? How much is it worth now? And that's probably why they've had likes such an uptick in user interaction over the past quarter. But yeah, it's, they have to be careful because if they're not then yeah, Bitcoin could very plausibly destroy PayPal, which would be an exciting headline to cover on this show. It was interesting, Ben, how people became instantly addicted to Bitcoin, whether they bought it or not, they just said, once they bought crypto, they started logging in twice as much. And you don't know if they're buying more, if they're like having phone phone, they're like, oh, I should have bought more. I saw it at this price and now it's this price. Oh, no. So it just seems like a typical Bitcoin entry cycle there. I don't know how to describe it. Yeah, no, it's true. But it's not just PayPal. This is something that I've been wary of for a very long time in terms of people saying, oh, the state, the governments will start buying Bitcoin or like major banks. The thing is there is that a major government who's going to call the private keys, how are you going to do that? You just need some corrupt dude that's access to it, just to then somehow hack the government and all of a sudden you've got a huge destruction of well or theft, you know, same with these banks, same with PayPal. You know, obviously we have a lot of techniques with multi-seag and such. But the more complex you get with security and the bigger the company is or the organization, the bigger the organization is the more complex your security needs to be. The more complex your security needs to be, the easier it is to lose your private keys and lose access to them because it's too complex. So either not complex enough in which case you get hacked or it's too complex in which case you lose access to them because something's gone wrong and oh, that guy left, we fired him and he got hit by a bus and oh no, you know, and I think there's going to be something here where it's provably lost and we'll start to tokenize lost coins or something like that. We'll see where maybe a major government like loses access and says, well, we know it's there. Let's just tokenize what's there and we'll see what happens. It could happen. We don't want to jump ahead to the criminal story but it is possible that the government could just say, hey, we have control of these bitcoins, we should be able to spend them anyway. That would be interesting to see. But moving on to the exit question. A lot of things happening behind me. Exit question, will PayPal adopt the lightning network? Like Josh said, allowing easy transactions one way, replacing their entire infrastructure with a superior network in six months, the next three years or never got a Ben arc first. No, no Ben. Yeah, they're not innovators. One innovation was borrowing to regulate us and not pissing off government too much. They're allowed to continue operating when innovators like Digikash and Egold were destroyed. They're not innovators. So it's very unlikely they're going to be utilizing lightning network anytime soon. They're going to buy up Ellen bits. They're going to buy Ben's house. I'll be like, yeah, PayPal. You feel like I love PayPal. I look, unless they buy something like Ellen bits or whatever, I just don't think they're like Ben said, they're going to innovate. They're just going to wait until there's a click solution from Blockstream that will do it. But yeah, it's really sad. I hope they do. Let's say that. I hope they do. I don't think they will. I agree with Josh PayPal will not attempt to use the lightning network. They'll be replaced by a quicker and faster competitor. Moving on, did you know the World Crypto Network has its own store at shop.worldcryptonetwork.com. Get Trezzers Don't Float Bitcoin Not Bombs 2020 Havning Edition and World Crypto Network. The mug that I'm using right here at shop.worldcryptonetwork.com. Here it is Ben's QR code. Get your lightning wallet ready and you can scan this lightning QR code. This is also a great time to like this show. Give us a thumbs up. It's free. You can also subscribe down below. Hit that bell for notifications. Allow YouTube to do notifications. Or subscribe on Twitter at World CryptoNet. That's how you find out about the show. So you can grab lightning satoshi's right now if you scan this. Grab your blue wallet, blue wallet, what other wallet works Ben with this is another wallet. I know that's the OSHI wallet. Satoshi's that again. Just point it out this and you get some satoshi's. Thanks. Well, let's touch it. Tell your friends and when you do grab these satoshi's folks. Don't just take them and go, oh great. Go on Twitter and tell them where you got them from and how cool it was because it is really good. Just technology built by Ben. Spin up a get go pay for a service. Go pay for some service which is being run online in network. I remember early on in Lightning Network people were like, oh yeah, this is the HTTP of Bitcoin. We're going to have all these amazing applications which are going to be built. Then just kind of feel like that now. Like Fiat Jeff, Zabadi, Zabadi, the company Zabadi. They've just released right now. It's like a lightning network CSGO. So people can CSGO's like a game kids play on their phone where they get guns from crates or something like that on old. I don't know what I'm talking about. But you can now pay for that using Bitcoin. So go pay for a service. Go play on something like CSGO with Zabadi or go buy and draw some penises on Satoshi's portal or go kaya server on Bitclouds and ddos Bitcoin.com or I don't know do something. But yeah, go engage with the Lightning Network and all these anonymous services which you can use it with. Most importantly, faucets like this are a great way to try out the asset without having to really know anything or buy anything. You can get a little bit of lightning here. You can send it to a second lightning wallet. You can pay for a service. You could go to that Satoshi gallery or whatever it's called the Satoshi Art Gallery thing. And you could draw a little thing. What I'm saying is the coolest thing you could do with this. If you, you know, download something like Waller Satoshi and then I don't know, get your partner or your mum or friends download Waller Satoshi and then just literally send some lightning, send some Bitcoin over lightning and then just watch it go Bing Bing or BLW wallet or, you know, all these great lightning wallets for all this things. And just the experience of doing a lightning transaction. What's the smallest amount they can send back and forth on this? Ben like two sats, 10 sats. One one sats and one sats. Most of the time you can get a transaction through just free because why not? So if you have a hundred there, you could onboard a hundred people onto the Lightning Network just on their phones just to show them how Bitcoin works, how the lightning network works, and really easy, barely and inconvenience. And every time you smash that like, a banker loses his shirt. So, you know, just think about that for a second. You think GameStop did something, did some damage? Think again, that like button right there on this show, that is what's going to really show those JP Morgan chase types. Pretty cool. Moving on to issue three, Bitcoin jumps above $38,000 a coin as crypto momentum flirts with key resistance level. There it is again, the price of Bitcoin, which has trended higher after peaking near $42,000 last month. Indicators suggest the coin has room to run and will make another run at the $40,000 Bitcoin level. Then arc, will the price of Bitcoin go higher? Just looking, I mean, you know, I don't really look at charts that much, but it's looking pretty positive. I thought when we dipped below, shall I screen share? How do I screen show on this thing? More big, big bar screen. There's a big massive button in the middle, which is green. That one is it. A binding chance. Oh, yeah, you've disabled it. You've disabled screen share. You need to enable. Oh, there we are. There we are. Cool. Right. So, go away. Don't want to join. Right. So, as we load it. You may trick, man. You've got to have you matrix. Here we go. Here we go. Yeah, should have used. Right. So, obviously, we had this dead cat bouncing thing going on where, you know, the Bitcoin price went up and then it went down and then it kept going down, but it kept going up and like, and I hope so. And then it kept dropping down, like a little dead cat bouncing. And then historically, Bitcoin would continue to do that. Then maybe it took up a little tiny bit just to get a hopes up from people buying and then it took down again. And then we'd have to wait about three or four years for it to do a significant move. But this time round, it seems that that dead cat bounce was just one little insignificant hiccup on the the crusade upwards because we've really broken free of that resistance. And the sky, you know, sky's looking nice and clear and looks like we're going to just continue to continue to continue to move up, you know, I think. But we have had some real phoamer-ish events like Elon Musk with his Twitter, changing his Twitter profile about to at Bitcoin and this inevitable and all this stuff. And Michael Saylor doing this thing and whatever else. But, you know, I can't see why the Bitcoin price won't continue to make its gentle, you know, incline upward. And it's broken. Like what I saw, what I saw it doing, the downward chart thing. I thought, here we go again, you know, we'll probably drop down to, I don't know, 10 grand now and we'll bounce around there forever for a couple of years and then we'll shoot up to 100 grand. But if that hasn't happened, so yeah, we're still in a very bullish looking market in my opinion. But Josh, this is your world. What is happening? Should we all be scared or should we all be rejoicing? No, I'm really happy. I'm really happy with this whole movement. I think it's really been good for the market to correct itself properly. I was really getting scared when at first it 40,000 because I just hate it when it screams up and then we have a two-year pause at the bottom and we're all selling our crypto, trying to live and selling this precious thing to live. I just suck. So, and then meanwhile, all these, you know, you're on Wall Street, buying up all the normies crypto and that's just sad. So, I'm really glad I pulled back a bit and it's been consolidating sideways. It's been gaining some confidence up at this new level. People are like, okay, this is what Bitcoin's worth now. This is new normal. Like it would have been unheard of a year ago to think, I'm just hanging around 35K for like two weeks, you know, really unheard of. It would have been like, it's way over price, but now people are like, yep, this is the new price. So, it sets a new solid grounding, a floor, whatever you want to call it, or a trampoline there for that. So, the dead cat looks more like a, I don't know, flying fox or something that sort of swooped down. These, these, these animal analogies. Hey, we have a wonderful, a donation here to the World crypto network from that, the madman. I was going to say, Josh, last time in 2017, it seemed like we only had a few weeks or maybe even just a couple of days for which to make our decision about whether or not we should sell and so forth. Now people have had lots of time to make their decision. They can feel really comfortable with selling and getting out. So, of course, like Ben said, the price is going to go higher to punish all those people for selling at an incredible price. If you're selling Bitcoin at 30,000 and you bought it at less, you know, it's way up, like you did really well. But like Ben said, now they've given us all this time to think and all this time to think about, oh, what you could buy and what you could buy if you sell and that'll probably lead to more sales, which means it'll go up and punish all those people. It only does the opposite of whatever I do. Ben, do you want to talk or we were going to all answer the question as well, too, Josh, from the, you see? Go ahead, Ben. You're muted. Oh, from, from the, yeah, from the chat, man, yeah, my case, as being followed, yeah, so being followed, I mean, since 2013, cool, well done. And he's wondering what will, the K is wondering what will happen to BTC if we end up with a deflation recrash. I mean, I personally think that for most sovereign fear currencies, we won't have a deflation recrash. I don't think it's unlikely. But I do think that the world is primed and ready for a free and open source money and a lot more interest and commerce and everything else will pour into Bitcoin. And then a lot of these fear currencies will be, they will run on Bitcoin. At some point, you know, I expect within the next five years, we'll have like, you know, a pretty well-established, you know, a big country like successful country switching to a Bitcoin-backed fear currency. But I don't think that switched to Bitcoin directly. But yeah, I don't think we're going to have a deflation recrash about what we're wrong. Who knows if it might happen? And if it did happen, I'm sure Bitcoin would go absolutely potty because everyone would pour their wealth into it. For all the optimism around Bitcoin and the prices up and all of this and that, let's remember, this is a pessimist currency. Right? This is the currency you buy if you're looking for a nice thing to own while you sit back and watch the world burn. So deflationary crash, inflationary crash, market crash, stocks crash, COVID, all these things, good for Bitcoin. Right? I was just watching undercover billionaire and they were talking about all these people that were suffering and all the businesses that were closing because of COVID and I was like, well, how's my business doing? How's the Bitcoin business? And I was like, oh yeah, we're crazy up. Everyone's crazy up. No one's really feeling the pain of the outside if they did their job and they invested in Bitcoin and sure you got to sell some every once in a while if you want to keep living and that kind of thing. But no, we are in the watch the world burn business. And I think this is sad. I think we should try to save the world. I think it's the only world we have when I was listening to Elon Musk on clubhouse this week. I was like, oh, yes, Elon, it's so great. We're going to go to Mars. But what about the earth, the only earth we have? And Elon was more like, we need to find a way to make Mars survive without the earth. And I was like, that's not quite the same question. I would prefer to save the only earth we have first before we go to Mars. John, what do you think pessimism rules? I think, yeah, no, I think positive is really important. It's super important and we should, I know I come on here sometimes, I feel sometimes like I'm the grumpy old guys sitting in the Muppet Show just but no, look, in terms of McKay's question here, you know, the stock market is booming, right? Is it though? Is it though? Or is everything up in price because the dollar is slowly deval- like we are seeing a devaluation right now? It's Bitcoin up in price because we're seeing a devaluation. Why is it stock? Why are all these companies that are ridiculously just, you know, like, like, flight, like aeroplane companies and stuff that's totally should be down in the dumps, hotels even are up. Like, it just doesn't make any sense. And so you've got to think, what is actually happening is the monetary system decoupling from reality. I would dare to say it is. I would dare to say that right now we're seeing total weirder and this GameStop scenario isn't just a bunch of redditors. It isn't just a bunch of redditors. It's a sign of the total ludicrous joke joke that Wall Street's become, that the markets are, they're just decoupled from reality, from the reality of a hard working solid business. You know, you know, people like Warren Buffett who would be like, I look at balance sheets and I can just tell right away if a company's worth this and I will buy an undervalued company and like, he wouldn't know what to buy right now. He'd be spinning out just going, well, I'm just glad I made a shit ton of money in the 80s because I wouldn't know what to do right now. The guy, like, the whole market's out of control. So a deflationary crash, I think it's, you know, I think we're going to see a massive amount of inflation over the next few years. It's going to happen. It's inevitable now. It's inevitable. I mean, it always has been, but it's getting closer to actually being able to see it and it's not even getting closer. You can actually see it. I mean, properties here in Berlin are silly guys. I don't, like, when I first moved to Berlin eight years ago, you could buy a really nice 120 square meter apartment in the middle of the city for like 500K. You can't get anything now for less than a mill, 1.2 mill. That's in eight years. Like, it's doubled, even tripled in value. There's hardly anything on the market. Everything's getting swooped up. Like, inflation is here. If you look at stuff like, if you, you know, the best thing I asked people to do is stop looking at inflation indicators, which are totally manipulated and go to the supermarket and every year buy the same thing. Just look by a bunch of bananas, some milk, some bread, some bacon, so, you know, just normal stuff, some flour and look at the price tag and see what's happening. See what's happening. That's the best way to determine inflation. The big Mac index, yes. There's another question in the chat. What about the Bank of England floating negative interest rates? As strange as it is, I think the time for negative interest rates have come. It's going to be necessary everywhere. They're going to have to charge people for holding their money. There's a certain cost to holding money, to securing it and so forth. And again, with these things, everyone freaks out, they're like, oh, I'll just get rid of my savings account. We're all wrong. They're talking about people that have more than $100,000 in there. People that are basically using the banks for storage of money and not contributing to the banks. The banks, like the exchanges and the trading platforms, they want you to be an active participant. They want you to be generating fees. And if you're just holding a ton of money in the bank, you're not generating fees. But actually, we, you know, our voting suppliers, we vote gold, of course. And a voting supplier, pro-orum, they have an amazing voting facility, top tier voting facility. And they've had to stop telling banks to secure, secure fee out in their votes, because they'd rather hold fee out big bags of cash, paper with bloody ink on this stuff, in a voting facility next to actual assets, next to bullion, because it's cheaper than sending it to the central bank and paying negative interest rates. So we're in a weird world right now, folks. I would definitely get as much, you know, only invest, only keep as much in the money in the bank as you're willing to lose. And moving on to the exit question, competing against the undefeated predictor of Bitcoin price, will the price of Bitcoin be higher or lower this time next week than arc? Higher. Maybe significant, higher, but yeah, higher. Higher. Josh, Josh, go ahead. Well, after Michael's sale is a shell fest, it'll probably be higher, but I kind of feel like it needs to bounce off of 40 a couple more times to break through. So I feel like my touch 40, have a little tickle under the arm there and head back down and probably bounce off 35, maybe bounce between 35 and 40 for a while until it breaks 40. Now it's definitely the time to slowly every week. You know, well, now, you know, if you didn't do it 10 years ago, the next best time is right now. I remember it always, it's allergic to round numbers. It's going to go to like 49, 9, or it's going to go to 48, 7 and it's going to break everybody that waits for 50, something like that. But let's check with the ball, the undefeated predictor of predictors, prognosticator of prognosticators. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? My sources say no. That's about as definitive an answer as you can get from a magic April. Moving on to issue four, police sees $60 million worth of Bitcoin. Now, where's the password? I don't think you quite understand that word you used seized. Police in Germany have seized more than 50 million euros. That's $60 million from a fraudster. There's only one problem that can unlock the money because he won't give them the password. The man was sentenced to jail and has since served his term, but he has maintained his silence throughout while police made repeated failed efforts to crack the code to access more than 1700 Bitcoin set a prosecutor in the Bavarian town of Kempton. We asked him, but he didn't say the prosecutor told Reuters on Friday. Perhaps he doesn't know. So, Josh Gala will as we come more of a problem in the future with police suddenly unable to seize criminal assets. Yeah, of course. I mean, they'll use all the old tricks. The thing is the governments and police in general, they're very, very good with psychology. So they will probably just say, well, if you don't tell us, you stay in prison. If you tell us, we'll cut 10 years up in a sentence and that'll release it. This sorts of stuff that bullies do. Depending if he deserved it, I don't know this character. I don't know what he did. I haven't read the case how he frauded. You never know what he did. So I can't say if he's a total fraud or not. But yeah, I think it'll happen more and more. I'm quite surprised. Often that that government sees Bitcoin like large amounts of people, but I think that's how they do it. They just say, well, then have fun with Bubba in cell three. You know, no one expects the Spanish in position and all you have to do is confess. Confess and we'll let you go. We won't burn you. Just confess. Then Ark, will they get the keys? Are the police going to get the money? You're muted again. Because I'm muted. Because when you meet me, I have to then click on a book which says I'm mute. I'm just going to have to get a quiet keyboard so you don't have to get mute me. We always talk about the wrench attack. The seizure attack. If the cops pursue your door and arrest you, then they shouldn't be able to access your Bitcoin. I think we saw with Mount Gox, not Mount Gox. So it's still growed. Yeah, so growed when the Bitcoin was seized, how incredibly untrustworthy the police, the investigators, if team were who seized the Bitcoin, they all became corrupt and started stealing the Bitcoin because obviously you know, it's privacy centric, so it's your persistence, so they were just able to pull the sats out, pull that Bitcoin out for themselves. That would be a legitimate concern if you arrested and you had Bitcoin that, okay, maybe you'd want to cooperate with authorities, but you just literally don't trust the agency who's arrested you to not steal the money. So I think it's a great bargaining chip and as Andreas used to say, any good money should be able to be used by criminals for criminal activities. So I think, yeah, we've seen a few Bitcoin is get locked up and come out of prison and then maintain their wealth and not have it seized and taken from them, but that's the whole point and that's why we're here. It's like a gold, which you can it's easy to smuggle and to hide. In fact, you can even just store a seed in your brain. Can I should let me share something with you actually because I was working on this this week and I made it a bit better. I don't know if you remember, but you remember where 39? So I took any three words, the concept of any three words and then mapped it to, yeah, mapped it to bit 39. So if I refresh here, working. There we are. So if I click on anywhere, so we are at several look, go to Swansy, which is where I am. I won't click exactly where I am, but there we are. Any location can be located to the square meter with four words using bit 39 seed phrase, but that's the error we're in. We're in a bearer asset and the reason pirates had treasure maps and all sorts of interesting ways of securing their wealth was because with a bearer asset, you need to secure it and you know, one way in which you could secure it is using something like where 39. So the upgrade I did to it, sorry, was I, so when you click now it now changes it for the URL and you can copy that URL and send it to somebody. You can also shuffle the words actually, it's pretty cool. So you can put in like a random number and then if I click shuffle, it will shuffle the words using that random number, which means that only you, if you share these four words with somebody, then they'll have to have the random number as well to be able to reshuffle the words and find out exactly where that location is. A little bit of a tangent I was using is a very loose segue to show my but nowhere, when the bearer asset era where money is no longer this digital thing or these heavy bags of cash or whatever, it's something you can just stash as a seed in your brain or as a four words as you remember and bury it somewhere, you know, using something like where 39. By the way, with where 39, you can run offline on your own phone or laptop and you can verify the code to make sure I'm not going to steal you, your treasure. But yeah, it's really interesting to see someone go all the way through prison, probably could have used as a bargaining chip but just refused to. And I bet a large portion of that was he just didn't trust the authorities to not to nick them on it themselves. Exit question, building on Josh's idea, in the United States, debtors' prisons are illegal. If you don't pay your debts, they can no longer just put you in prison until you pay. Will they change the laws and force you to reveal your words to give up your keys before you can exit prison? Yes or no? Josh Shagalla. It's a pretty tricky one because there's, there is some ethical considerations here. You could literally say, I don't know them. I don't know them. And what do you, you could have had a boarding accident. Could have had a boarding and we all know that treasures don't float. But yeah, I really love where's that where 39 I just love the fact that you can break up the entire planet in what is it three by three meter or five by five meter portions. And yes, four four words gets you down to I think it's like a meter and a half, but if you use the five words, it's like, it's like, you know, it's amazing. Absolutely stunning. And so why do you need to remember some ridiculous address when you can remember three words? It's just beautiful. I could be a solution for India as well. You know how India doesn't have streets and addresses. It's very difficult to deliver packages. They say things like behind the red barn two street, you know, down the way. If they had Ben's little system with the words, you could just get your mail or your package delivered to the four words. Yeah. So Ben, will they do it? Yes or no, Josh? You're saying yes. Well, they, they, I don't, I don't, maybe, yeah, probably in some places. They must have your keys. Ben, Ark, will they do it? Yes or no? Do you want to, what are they going to do? They'll change the laws to make it so you have to compel your keys before you can leave prison. Like this guy right here, Shari's completed a sentence. But if the law said, who cares, you have to give up the money, example, he made it through fraud or whatever. Yeah. Michael Sala did a good little bit on this. He's talking about taxes. And then despite, you know, despite being a bit of a lefty and all that, you know, I don't like taxes. And I think taxes should be the harder taxes are to get out of people to pull out of people. The more honest they become, the easier they are to kind of pull out of people. Then the less honest they are. And the more, the less fair they are as well, you know, it's different classes in society. So, no, I want taxes should be harder to get. And Michael said it does a good bit about people claiming taxes on Bitcoin. And ultimately you could just turn around and say, I forgot the words. I'm sorry, it's gone. And it's the same with this guy in prison. You just like Josh said, you just, you know, you could just claim to forget the words. And then later on when he gets out of prison in his home free and he's in a nice tropical climate, he can then suddenly remember the words. I always like Charlie Shremm. When he was like, destitute out of prison. And then a few months later, he's on a yacht, you know. Okay, Charlie, did you have some Bitcoin stashpidy chats? I don't like taxes either. That's why I always take Uber. Moving on to issue five. Issue five. Oh, yeah. Ah, almost there. Issue five. Bitcoin's wild ride. Renews worries about its massive carbon footprint. Bitcoin has a carbon footprint comparable to that of New Zealand, producing 36.95 megatons of CO2 annually, according to Dig Economist. The cryptocurrency consumes more electricity than the entire annual energy consumption of the Netherlands. Cambridge University researchers say critics say there are alternative tokens. Quiet. That consumed far less power while bulls argue disputes about Bitcoin's environmental impact. Miss the point. No figures were provided for the environmental usage of banks and the existing system. No figures were provided for the costs of wars and other destructions caused by the existing system. Ben Arck, are they right? Is Bitcoin's carbon footprint out of control? muted. muted. It's the button that says on mute. I think maybe I'll take this one. It's, you know, we've come across this topic for ad nauseam. I mean, it's something that we talk about at least once every month. No, maybe once every two months. But the whole notion of the fact that Bitcoin is proof of work actually one of the most important parts of Bitcoin is that it's proof of work. And actually, I think it's got a wider effect in the fact that we're looking as a community, or the miners definitely are looking for cheaper ways to generate electricity. Because the fact of the matter is the way the world produces power is so ludicrous, we are surrounded in energy. We've got so much energy and power around us. It's just insane. It's insane. Just the amount of oceans and the waves and the heat in the ground. I mean, the heat in the ground is so extraordinary, but just as silly how much power. And we're like, we've got to have Earth Day and all turn off our lights for an hour. No, we don't. We've got to find better ways of tapping power. You idiots. What are you doing? You're still burning dinosaur juice. You're still burning coal and grabbing coal out of what are you doing? So what Bitcoin is doing is forcing people to find these cheaper forms of energy. And most of the mining farms, especially in China, going through hydroelectric, you're seeing huge hydroelectric plants that are just basically wasting energy. So they just chuck Bitcoin, you know, look for Bitcoin. And in Iceland, you're getting heaps of mining farms up there because they've got massive amounts of geothermal. So the whole thing of Bitcoin is how do we get cheaper energy and cheaper energies from the Earth? Something that you don't need to dig out, something that you don't need to refine, which all adds costs. In the past, it was good because one company could monopolize this thing that was very hard to do and then give it to you to put into your car. But finding for energy for Bitcoin miners, they want to get direct to the source. They don't want to sit there adding value. They just want to get straight into the into the Earth, find that hotspot, find the heat in the ground and boil some water, create some steam. And that's what will happen. Bitcoin will not only give us freedom of money, it will also help us find free energy. I agree with Josh, we talk about this at least every six months. And my answer is always the same. They've taken this calculation, they've multiplied at times a thousand. And they say, after a thousand cycles, it will be taking so much energy. Well, after 10,000 cycles, it'll be taking so much energy. And they never take into account, like Josh was saying, the potential gains from hydroelectric power that is currently just being wasted if they don't have enough batteries. Batteries are very expensive, especially even compared to Bitcoin miners. You could just mine the Bitcoin at the hydro power sources, essentially storing the energy in a Bitcoin battery. That's one thing. Sun solar power, wind power, all of these things, even nuclear power can be used to mine Bitcoin. So I think these solutions, as well as more efficient chips, better hardware, technological solutions that we cannot predict, yet keep happening over and over again. So no, I don't think we're in a Malthusian situation where we're running out of food and everything's gone bad. The other side of this is that if Bitcoin is so good, which again, Michael, sailor, all these corporations, all these famous people are into it now, Gene Simmons, etc. Bitcoin must be so good. How are they going to ever convince anyone to stop mining it? You have to look at the incentive structure. If you could plug in a machine that makes money, someone's going to plug in a machine that makes money, you can't convince them that the things not worth money, just like we just had 30, 50 years wasted in the war of drugs, trying to convince people that drugs aren't good. Drugs just keep selling. They're not good, they're bad, they just keep selling. Bitcoin's the same thing. People are addicted to it. They love it. They want to use it. It's going to keep selling. So I would say more about let's put those miners in the hydro electric plants. Let's do like Ukraine is talking about doing, building a new nuclear plant just to mine Bitcoin using cleaner sources of energy to continue to produce as well as I talk about a better product for the world better than central banking, better results, better for the people. Ben Arck. You're these, none of us know miners and they're not living this like cypherpunk, private dream, which people want. They're real world big entities which you're able to lobby against and ensure that they use renewables as opposed to fossil fuels. Part of the big problem for Bitcoin is being the Chinese subsidized coal power plants but the Chinese government, I think they realized that Bitcoin was making up like a relatively small amount of GDP when it came to harnessing some of the surplus power from some of these power stations. So I'm sure they clamped down on that not long ago and then Bitcoin started to seek out like Josh said cheaper energy which equates renewables. Josh said there's energy everywhere. You take this many light photons from the sun and you can put it through a magnifying glass and set something on fire like this energy everywhere. So it's abundant and the cheapest form of energy is renewables. You just need to harness it properly and Bitcoin doesn't incentivize that. This article was almost touting proof of stake as being a feasible alternative to proof of work and you know sadly it's just not I mean if you want businesses usual just a few big exchanges or big financial institutions to have the large proportion of say on to how Bitcoin works then yeah it moves to proof of stake system because that's essentially what proof of stake is is the more you stake the more you say it have more say you have in the network. So yeah proof of work is work for us in Bitcoin and so we're not going to find a better alternative solution anytime soon and it's really you know it's proof of work itself isn't bad for the environment it's the way in which the energy we decide to use to do that mining to commit that push power. How we decide how we harness the energy is the problem and that's something which can be lobbied against with these miners and we don't need to worry about you know them needing censorship resistance and privacy because that's just not how mining works and we can see that by the very fact that none of us know any miners out there you know. So yeah it's and also there's some of the stats that they said that one visa trance like one Bitcoin transaction is equivalent to 100,000 visa transactions. Now I do get you know if I get a plane somewhere I'm you know again being like a snowflake lefty type I get plane shame I feel bad about it in all the energy which I'm consumed flying from one place to another and if I do a Bitcoin transaction on chain I do legitimately feel guilty about it I'm like okay the energy used for this Bitcoin transaction could power a house for you know month or whatever I don't know and I I tend to try and avoid it on chain transactions and I think that's that's okay that's a healthy thing to do like if you understand that it isn't consuming all this energy and you would rather not do that and they're fair enough but you don't want to you know remove the ability for people to fly on planes and you can't do that you know that as societies as they become more advanced they their energy usage goes up that's how it works you know it's advancing societies and energy usage just their link together and they just they just they just move upwards so yes we need to renewables yeah with coal fires burning while we choke on our on our fumes because yeah get the old London smart power we should be using more power yeah more power we just got to find better versions of it like it just got to find better electricity we have found it we have found it it's just that the silos are making far too much money just like the reason we haven't had electric cars and we've been told for years how slow what you want a golf cart electricity is far too slow you'll be moving you know all these nonsense this crap they've told you all it took as one billionaire to go you know what's good I'm going to make an electric car and everyone's like wow these things are magic these things are amazing yeah so be fair this go just going back to the status also a hundred thousand fees of transactions from bitcoin transaction group balls did a on Twitter it's one of the the block stream devs he did a on the on lightning network on top of a liquid token in fact he he did a experiment so he did a transaction so anything he did half a million transactions in a 24 hour period between two people on a channel just and they were like low-end computers and they could do half a million transactions there's 400,000 transactions in bitcoin in a day currently so you know 100,000 fees of transactions it is one bitcoin transaction the it consumes the same amount of energy is one bitcoin transaction so 400,000 bitcoin transactions if we if we say switch to off-chain you know lightning transactions then you know that's that's what 40 billion transactions in a day so we can I think visa do a billion transactions a day so yeah we can we energy-wise we could that yes currently you know win bitcoin transaction is a hundred thousand fees of transactions and it's just one person move money to one place to another but in the future that bitcoin on-chain transaction is going to contain so much like so much information and so much transaction history through things like the lightning network and lightning network and side chains and then things like you know taproot and the ability to a mass and the ability to to have you know these scripts script the scripts which are kind of concated down into tiny little scripts and then embedded in a bitcoin transaction there's going to be so much you're going to get so much out of one bitcoin transaction that you know it will be equivalent to a hundred thousand fees of transactions so actually you know the energy consumption isn't that bad when you think about it in in in in in that light that you know okay yeah maybe we're just using bitcoin transactions just as in just sending money from one person to another yes they could be more economical in that we could pack a lot more information a lot more a lot more movement within that one transaction by using things like lightning network so yes it's it's it's the energy consumption isn't that bad and yes it incentivizes renewables and we yeah it's it's it's not something to worry about I agree Ben they never even talk about transaction batching which is an old idea that we had on pro tip years ago before coinbase and the other exchanges started using it and now they use it all the time there's a couple of good comments in the chat I wanted to read hold on just they said the gale says the banks the vaults the trucks to move fiat around utilities to heat those bankers and buildings the bank I was an operator for was the 10th largest computer system on the east coast and that's one bank crypto cleanse says the same thing he says last super bowl bank of America had a commercial talking about their 250,000 employees 250,000 employees use a lot of energy and that's again one bank so the exit question when they do this article again in six months oh honey penny the sky is falling bitcoin uses too much energy will they ever even attempt to compare a bitcoin financial system to the legacy system josh igala I mean maybe because every every few months people get more and more educated but you know it it ruffles feathers the new cycle once for ruffle feathers because ruffling feathers gets people click so probably not then arc I mean the dice I thought this bar course pretty balanced to be fair and I think that we're going to see more ballots and then more pro bitcoin usage because it incentivizes renewable renewables so yeah it's going to get better people people I think people get bored of that that story the bitcoins destroying the planet with this energy usage and that they would have read the the arguments against against that so I'm going to be convinced here by Ben's non cynical view that yes the next article will be the variation they'll say oh no we just found out the bitcoin doesn't save the planet that much power bitcoin could save the planet we could spend less on banking all these transaction things all these technology wow it's almost like just multiplying something by a thousand and saying it'll be different in a thousand days isn't the way to predict the future it's almost like that's too simplistic I don't know I feel like what's going to happen more the cases in six months time they'll be comparing Ethereum's proof of stake a little bit more to the proof of work and and stuff like that so we'll just see I mean I think proof of stake also I mean it's all an experiment you know we we confidently say in the show proof of stakes no we're nearest good this and that and the other thing it's all an experiment it's very young technology so we'll wait and see you know I do feel that proof of stake generally rewards the already wealthy but then again it takes a lot of money to mine already so that you need to be wealthy to mine as well at the moment my cynicism has returned maybe they'll do an article comparing Ethereum's proof of stake positively to bitcoin's negative proof of work before they get to this incredible revelation which again these people will be blown away they'll be like we thought bitcoin used so much power but then we thought about it differently using our brains and oh it was so different gosh if only we used our brains more often yeah proof of stakes no I mean it's just this this business as usual if you want that I don't want that that's why I made bitcoin well we did it we made it to the end of the show I think we're ready for predictions or a story of the week Josh shegala you wanted to go ahead with a prediction or a story of the week well my prediction is that no I have a story of the week actually I know it won't go down well on this show but we added a theorem on on Valtaro Votor look Votor look it's really good I mean I actually like some of the defy stuff I know it gets bagged on the show but for instance I bought my car by locking up ETH and not having to sell it and borrowing money against myself I think it's a really interesting idea to instead of going to a bank and borrowing money I lock up some my own collateral and borrow against myself half of what's in there and and go and buy a physical thing I'm driving a car now that I bought with crypto that I never had to sell and I'm charging I'm charging a small interest rate which the the network charges me and and then but you know the theorem's gone up quite a bit so I don't really have to worry about the industry that much I'm I am fascinated by some of this stuff I really there are some projects that are building it on bitcoin as well some defy things and look when I say defy I think the original defy is bitcoin because that is a decentralized finance tool it's decentralized finance means a financial instrument without intermediary and and really that's that's where we're heading and we shouldn't poop who everything because it's on other chains I think there's really interesting people building interesting ideas especially with decentralized exchanges so that we you know I know I run an exchange but decentralized exchanges are really cool they're really interesting idea and I can't wait for for stuff to happen on side chains on on bitcoin I just hope that it happens soon because you know I just don't see it really taking off as much as the the amount of work being done on the Ethereum chain in terms of that stuff then of the day we've got we've got bitcoin doing its thing and that's holding value and I don't think it should compete maybe it's maybe it should I don't know but I think the market is is pointing towards Ethereum doing this sort of work in in in the world so I would like to see more stuff happening on the bitcoin network using some of that extraordinary hash power that secures that network to do other things than just holding value when I say just that's a pretty amazing thing that it does but yeah so we added it to the Valtaro and people can trade between precious metals and Ethereum and and gold and Ethereum I'm sorry and Bitcoin Ethereum with negative interest rates negative interest rates that story negative trading fees I'll move into soon very cool people can check that out at Valtaro.com right all right let's go yeah good good all right let's go to Ben our prediction or a story of the week go ahead that's going to be on coin geek tomorrow it's going to be Valtaro has negative interest rates majoring now and now Ethereum one it's the stuff which is built on Ethereum is mind boggling and it seems to it's gravity seems to attract a lot very good developers I think it's a lot more welcoming and snooty than less snooty sorry than the bitcoin quote-unquote community but you know it does proof of stakes on my cup of tic and it kind of feels like house built on sand almost you know when you build a project on the I mean I don't know I think Ethereum's going anywhere anytime soon you know I think it's very stable uh uh cryptocurrency where we want to call it it's not something I pay too much attention to but I do know that's a lot of interesting very cool things being built on it particularly in the DeFi world as I like to call it the DeFi world or I still need to look into I I don't go down that rabbit hole of looking into DeFi but I it's stuff which I'm interested in it I'm interested in the the concept of it so yeah it's cool that Valtaro's I mean that's what people want isn't it people who are trading between Bitcoin and gold like they want to be able to then switch to Ethereum when Ethereum pumps when when you know Bitcoin goes up and drops and then Ethereum does this little pump it always does after a Bitcoin's dropped that's what people want to be able to quickly switch into to Ethereum to be able to make the gains there so fair enough um I even I've got a start I don't got a story of the week I think I did it probably with the worth 39 stuff um uh I've been arguing a lot with um the locker I don't know if you're aware of the so locker mesh is like a Venezuelan Bitcoin they did a um a Corrald funding campaign for a hardware gizmo which does mesh networking and I expressed some concerns last year in July about the project that they seemed like a lot of lofty promises not much production development um a disproportionate amount of energy into securing these pre orders for this hardware device um and I just you know I I was like a little bit I hope I'm wrong you know hopefully this project will work and everyone will build this cool device and people will be able to have decentralized communication um to this mesh network and uh as a year war on it seemed that that wasn't happening and then locker mesh they're the company folded um I don't think they're going to I mean I don't know uh I've heard mixed things some people have said they're gonna under the pre orders and so the people said they're not going under the pre orders so I've spent a lot of big blash proportion of my weak battling with those with that lot um because I called them scammers I don't know maybe shouldn't have done but I don't know I just it just seems you know within Bitcoin which like Thompson saying early on we're we're always trying to sort of build out the community trying to help it progress forward and one of the ways in which I could do that was sort of building and making community and then other people I knew were kind of getting in and we were we were getting involved in getting people to build their own things little gizmos and hardware wallets and mesh devices whatever um like stepping with uh with this with this hardware wallet and some people like Justin Moon and um uh the DIY Bitcoin pack man he's he's put a nice group together on telegram we're all doing all these building all these um uh hardware solutions using and playing around with Bitcoin and Lightning Network um so it's uh it's important that uh you know if someone's got a worthwhile project they're able to get funding and do crowdfunding and funding um but then it's also important that people don't take advantage of that so it kind of felt like the the locker mesh team kind of took advantage of that it's a bit of a downer um uh but uh yeah hopefully um i'm completely wrong and they will fulfill all those orders and on all those orders but it's not looking good at the moment so it's a bit of a shame. Well part of the problem been is that people want to use this scam term and they want to poison everyone and throw the mother of bushes you you meant to do this you meant to fail but the other side is just as bad when you take on something that's too big and you say oh we over-promised and we're going to make this that's going to be amazing and you don't know how you're going to do it you don't know where you're going to do it it's almost just as bad as the scam but it's done with good intentions. We meant so well exactly yeah Amazon and Uber they were all underfunded too and that's just like us I mean this is kind of the this is a this is the sobbing it's the it's the it's the iCO argument isn't it's like when does when can someone admits themselves that what they're running is a scam you know they have people around them saying yes this is a worthwhile project you're going to build you know I don't know what are you going to build this iCO thing this iCO concept and then they have this like reinforcement around them and they're able to kind of convince themselves that what they're doing isn't a scam but ultimately in the back of their mind they must know that they're not going to be able to fulfill these extreme promises they're making. Never ever they believe you what you do is you believe the lie and from then on you can be to polygraph you can be at anything and you have the best of intentions you're in jail and they're like the guy at the fire festival does anyone remember that they had a big party it was going to be in the Bahamas and the guy had never run a festival before and everyone that works for him they're like we thought he was going to pull it off you know oh yeah that guy yeah the last minute it was all going to come together and the artists were going to come out and it would be like the end of Wayne's World 2 and everyone would be happy and no one would need a refund well you know what happened instead is they got there the thing wasn't set up it was like Lord of the Flies they gave them like some rations and some tents that weren't set up and they just let these Instagram people go with nothing and these people got a total scam and they got to live through it and they were taking pictures of their grilled cheese sandwich and complaining about how terrible the cheese is. He met well Josh he met well he wanted to have a nice music festival and that's what goes all these people over promise under deliver and we say oh they met well yeah but I mean you know being in the startup world you see a lot of pitch decks they're all like that they're all like that the ICO for me is just a way of raising money it every every pitch that you get over promises I mean Steve Jobs I can guarantee you when he pitched Apple out of his garage would have been like over promising and and managed to pull it off so there are some entrepreneurs that can actually do it and and you know the difference between a scammer and an entrepreneur is that an entrepreneur actually has that actually wants to make it happen you know because they can't make it happen or it's something fails or it's out of their control it's not always meaning it's a scam and I feel like the word scam is overused because there are true scams like one coin like like like big connect that are really out there to systematically steal people's money and and and convince them that they're investing in something that's real and that's what I think is really awful and I feel like ICO gets a bad rap because it's like it's a new funding mechanism but I can guarantee you there's plenty of scams in the startup space as well there's plenty of scams that are trying to take the money from well but from both sides startup scams and investor scams trying to get money from startups you know like so that's the bit which is really interesting to me is like when does it when does it become a scam like how does it is it the person who's running it has to consciously know that they're ripping people off or if everyone around them is like that's not going to work you just taking people's money not going to be able to deliver don't do that you know I'm basically why I said in July like this is this looks like a scam like like so so if the people in bit connect thought of what they were doing was good work and actually this thing might work and maybe it will make you know the wall of our place and maybe the wall can't is ready for Bitcoin but maybe it's ready for a bit connect or maybe it's ready for a one coin like like can they have the intention that's the difference they never they've never made any software they never even had a gear they never had anything but they were telling people they did and they so they intentionally went out and did big events huge massive football stadiums full of like exploding fireworks and huge screens like it was epic epic how much money they spent on the marketing side look there is definitely scams in the ICO world but I feel like we in the Bitcoin community say ICO it's the mechanism that makes it a scam but it's not it's the scam are taking advantage of the mechanism and I think it's it's a really nice mechanism actually it's just it can be used really badly I feel like people can raise money through through through a community and the community have ownership through a cryptographic proof I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with that I know that on the show you guys don't like it but I do feel like and then you get people I reach it hard for instance in that that pump a scammy piece of shit that really doesn't go anywhere right but then but then again so he's an interesting one because in his head I mean it's always like this Bitcoin cloud mining rigs solutions or whatever like they can convince themselves of what they're doing isn't a scam like they even even if they're like well okay I haven't actually done the work yet but I'll kick the can down the road I'll get this investment and then I'll do the work and build this like cloud my cloud mining solution and then I'll you know I'll do good by all my investors that doesn't really apply to it should help but like they can they can rationalize it to themselves that they're going to to do to to to to make their project you know worthwhile and not just hot air and just you know wild promises that don't actually fulfill those promises by kicking the can down the road and then they just keep getting more money he get more money and then all of a sudden they become a scammer you know um uh and again I think maybe with Richard I don't I don't even know like he probably thought he was innovating with this hack thing like and yeah I mean a better example would be for instance Mt. Gox and Mark up Palace he started off really wanting to build a cool exchange you know it's like that this is cool technology and he's going in there sipping his tea is ninja swords it's a frappa latte frappa latte and you know he really started the thing is then he got hacked and he's like shit how do I get how do I make up the money well we'll we'll just use investor over here and try and then you run into a downward spiral and you're trying to hide funds and it turns into a scam um you know there's those those sorts of scams as well so there's multiple it's a great it's a big spectrum and um and but I feel like just calling everything a scam in the space it it and I've said it before on the show but I feel like it just diminishes the word scam so that people think oh uh you know Ethereum's a scam because it's not Bitcoin I've never I've never outwardly called anything a scam before but this with this particular project I was like I think it's because I think the problem I had with it was like a week ago or one of what's a couple of weeks ago one of my telegram groups I'm in one of them turned up and said hey pre-order these devices we're making these devices we're going to sell them blah blah blah and then like two weeks later you know they they close they you know they just look like they're going to honor their their their pre-orders so this guy who was trying to get those last minute pre-orders sold he knew that they weren't going to be fulfilled and to me I'm like right you're a scammer you know you're scamming people out of money um I mean I'm still yet to be proven hundreds I mean maybe they'll just you know surprise everybody and send these devices out to people I don't think it's going to happen but to me that was like okay now I can just out and I did I was something that's when I was like right you're a scammer and sort of outwardly called them out on it um but I feel like I feel like um the large part of the world has spent the last years totally removing risk from normal folk de-risking the obsession the obsession with de-risking everything but instead of learning what a scam looks like so people just run into it any else got the crypto investor you know just like in real life you don't go into a shop and um you know of course we have laws and stuff and we want laws and things but we also need to be that's the whole reason they're doing ICO like you're all like defending ICO but the reason we have laws is so you can't do the ICO so that you have to write down your name so that when one coin goes out of business we know where Dr. Rooja lives yeah but you can do that you can do that you can do that thing is now after the whole massive bubble of the ICO the market the crypto market's a small still fairly small nation's learned now okay I'm not investing in any ICO that doesn't refer names of course there's always another sucker born every second I know that they've learned I think they just moved on to DeFi and they're pumping strange things called wiffy and sushi and I don't even know that those guys have a an address or a real name or it's just Joe Joe Hardler or something I don't know no no I mean most most uh things that I've looked around if they're raising money now they're definitely people are a lot more astute they're like is there a is there um a venting period a vetting period or does the smart contract slowly release the funds over time do the token holders actually get to release every quarter if they're happy it's not possible though is that yeah that's all possible it's just like what you said you know fool me once uh won't get fooled again yeah exactly now that's that's pretty cool that's possible is that yeah yeah that's possible for sure it's possible and so you know that's the great thing is that the market is learning what is a scam of course there's always new idiots and and if you're really sorry for it six figures in the dogecoin six figures six figures and I mean you know the poor guy like I think I want to see it I want to see six figures into dogecoin terrible terrible idea terrible idea but I do think now we're from just a general my view of the world uh that I am seeing more astute investors in the crypto space compared to 2017 yeah true I still think it's the classic Conan O'Brien quote from the Simpsons Montereyle episode a town with money is like a mule with a spitting wheel you don't know how he got it and he don't know what he's doing with it well I think I think we're running out of time uh bandy and one more thing to say on that or oh really I mean I just again like I've said this a whole way through when I've been kind of calling them out you know tactfully and now less tactfully I'm just I hope I'm wrong I hope that you know that they come good and they uh on of these pre-orders and um and they build some cool machine networking things you know good look to them but you know looking good at the moment sadly and again for this delusion it can last the entire time period you can think that you're putting on a great music festival or that you're going to start a thousand year rike uh right up until that gunshot in the bunker and then you're like oh it didn't work out I know that was a deep pull but uh I think we're about towards the end uh but yes thanks to everybody for donating uh thanks to the ten dollars in the super chat uh we're at 62% of our new laptop fundraiser you could donate now with on chain bitcoin or with the lightning network at tally coin you could even try it out uh Ben sent you some satoshi's there oh well it's not loading right here but all you have to do is go to tally coin uh there's a little box that usually loads you push like 50 cents or a dollar and it'll make a lightning invoice for you and then you can try out uh your lightning satoshi's uh it doesn't it doesn't work right now there's some plug-in issues or something so uh but I'm sure it will work for you so give it a try uh but that's about it uh for this episode uh thanks so much for watching give us a thumbs up and a share if you're welcome on Facebook or YouTube they can barely hear it now because it's terrible keyboard it's like a word in the world but uh that's about it thanks so much until next time bye bye bye bye we'll add a