#214 — The Bitcoin Group #214 - Bitcoin Falls 50%, Dow Down Too - Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion

I'm really sorry. Still setting up the show getting the link ready for Twitter. I thought that was the sound effect and you sound effect for the. Oh yeah, we got that. Oh, I'm getting the chat ready. There we go. So, if you're not the question, then you can do the door knock and we can go. Oh, sorry, but I go together. Oh, only only I think that's fun, but there's all the sound effects. That means. All right. So, they say that apparently the Trump conference is still on, but we're going up against it. So, there it is. I just shared all the links. Welcome to our viewers on YouTube, Facebook and Periscope. Welcome to the YouTube chat. Give us a thumbs up and a share. We're going to go ahead and start the show now. There we go. Oh, Bitcoin group, the American original for over the last 10 seconds. The sharpest Satoshi's the best bitcoins, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Ben Arck from BTC, I O T. Hello, Robert Allen from Bitcoin and friends. How's everyone doing? Dan Eve, the crypto raptor. COVID-19. Oh, you know what I mean. Well, never get out of my head. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to our top story this week. The price of Bitcoin currently is up 11% with a last of 5,415, a high of 6,010 and a low of 3,956. That's $1 for 18,273 Satoshi's. As you can see, the price of Bitcoin tumbled dropping 50% in an epic two day drop following the stock market down. Many people who believe Bitcoin was a store of value and a... What is it called? Survives against the stock market where let down as a Bitcoin did not store its value did not survive as a state of refuge. Then what are your thoughts on the Bitcoin price decline, the stock market decline and pretty much it's all related to the coronavirus, which we'll talk about more in the second issue. But what do you think 50% down? I mean, these are strange and incredible times and very risky and unstable times and wealth and unstable environment just looks for stability and Bitcoin isn't really unstable. That being said, I would say that the... A lot of the selling action it was done on exchanges, it was weak hands. If you go on local... I was looking at local Bitcoin prices and quite often they were selling it premium. A lot of the HODLER bedrock they were holding strong and it was... And there was an unmasked liquidity in P2P markets. I was told this was similar as well. It was more on the exchanges where the price was being dropped down. We can't... It's a supply and demand. There's not enough people buying and there's a hell of a lot of people rushing to the door to try and sell. They're trading in the capitulating. But they're trade-a-times and they just see Bitcoin as a risky asset, like some risky share or option or whatever else. They just want to dump that and convert to cash. I think there has also been on top of that some people who live off Bitcoin and they've maybe sold a Bitcoin or two just to give themselves some cash in the bank during these weird and strange days which we're living through. But no, it very much felt like... It's isn't trading advice and please nobody put any money on my opinions. It did feel like a dip. It was hitting... Going down, dropping 50% in a couple of days is quite extreme. And it doesn't mean that the value of Bitcoin has dropped 50% in a couple of days. It's just a short and sharp by the dip moment. And as we can see, the price has gone back up. I'm sure that people will remember why Bitcoin is there and it's there as a negatively correlated against other assets and stock markets. It's a separate class of its own. And we have got as well. So we have also got all these people who have been quarantined and they're going to be sat at home on the laptops. And it's all going to coincide with the halving event. So people will be learning about the halving event. They'll be on the laptops. So a seed Bitcoin price which crashed and they read that the price is crashed and the paper whatever. And then a few months later the price is going to go party because the halving. So it feels very temporary and it's a panic, a particular regulation from weekends. But the HODL bedrock is still pretty strong. So not too much to worry about. Just, yeah, it's always scary when the price drops to a heart. Robert Allen is Bitcoin still a safe haven asset. I guess it depends on your time preference or your, you know, the window of time that you're viewing your investment in. For many of us, if you were buying when it was a few hundred dollars, it's still looking pretty good at 5,000. So of course, if you were buying in at a much higher price, which some people did, it's, it's a little painful to see that happen. To your investment, I would just encourage people to remember to think long term with Bitcoin. You know, nothing fundamentally has changed about Bitcoin. It still is producing blocks roughly every 10 minutes, maybe a little closer than nine and a half. Has the hash rate increases. It still works. It's, I used it last night to send a little bit of Bitcoin to an exchange and I bought a leverage position, which I never do. But I thought, you know what, what are the odds that it's going to drop more after dropping the second most in its entire history. And I bought pretty close, not quite the bottom. I wish I'd gotten the money on the exchange a little quicker, but, you know, a bottle leverage position. And I slept overnight with the leverage position open, woke up in the morning, you know, thinking, well, there's a chance I won't have any money there. And thankfully it was up. So so far so good, not advising people to do that. But maybe if you're a veteran and you're, you've got, you know, brass balls, you can try it. But yeah, I mean, Bitcoin is Bitcoin is still doing what it does. It's going to be here moving forward. There's, you know, huge amounts of money that's gone into investment in lighting network companies and other Bitcoin companies. This industry is not just going to die because the price dropped a bit. And yeah, I mean, people were liquidating their positions because, you know, maybe they were over leveraged in, in equities or in Bitcoin and they needed cash to cover. This is, to me, pretty normal when, when we live in an economy that is, you know, addicted to, to easy money and it just sloshes around a lot. And this is sort of one of, I think, one of the repercussions of this kind of sick financial system that we are all stuck in. So, you know, coronavirus, well, I mean, in the end, maybe this is going to be like the pin that pricks all of this nonsense. And, and it all unravels and it could be pretty painful for a couple of years here. But let's, let's hang together. Let's keep building the future. I'm honestly very optimistic and yeah, we're going to make it. That's just what Ben Franklin said we must all hang together or surely we will all hang separately. Dan Eve, do you sleep in Bitcoin, Fiat or perhaps with two fuzzy dogs? I sleep, well, I don't, one, I don't sleep into the two tremendously fuzzy dogs. But one thing that is really worrying is, sorry, isn't really worrying is that the hash rate at the moment is like 124 exa hash is I think at the moment. So really is still smashing it. I mean, it peaked to like 140 just sorry just under 140. So the dip, I mean, it hasn't maybe hasn't had much time to have a good ripple effect yet and see whether it is really going to, you know, impacts on the hash rate. But at the moment, it's kind of, you know, wobbling in its in its average. We'll see what that that kind of how that pans out once the heart one on the lead up to the halving. But especially if there's any more big global economic kind of free counts again, which wouldn't surprise me at all because obviously the level of, you know, people freaking out in different countries varies a lot. You know, in the UK at the moment, like the Boris basically said it was kind of, you know, blunt but kind of told it kind of a bit, you know, cold, which was like you might lose loved ones, etc. And which is very sad. And I think that that's going to definitely have ripple with, you know, ripples through out the supply chain of everything, including probably mining hardware. So you know, you might even see older hardware kind of get, you know, come back into play if there's shortages or whatever and, you know, however, the price pans out. But it's very scary times I was really not happy to look at a look at coin market cap like it was it was I was in despair. But if also not in despair, it has in like, oh, you know, the classic like this is, oh, shit, the bed. But also just hilarious. It's just come on. It's just it's just funny. The fact that someone someone mentioned earlier, so really waffle on about the circuit breakers of, you know, on the stock market. They're all over the show at the moment. And Bitcoin kind of doesn't have any circuit breakers, although technically I suppose Bitmex serves kind of a bit of a circus breaker, everyone freaked out. Maybe, you know, was a bit pause trading in their thoughts for at least for a little bit. But it's recovered, you know, a little bit since the massive crash and that just shows how kind of resilient it is. But yeah, wait and see. I'm still in shit. You've got so and there's no toilet roll in the UK. Geez. No toilet paper in the UK moving on to the exit question. The price of Bitcoin to parts. The price of Bitcoin this time next week higher and lower. And is this a short term or a long term crisis, Ben from Wales. Yeah, I think I think I think higher. I think I'm going to go higher. Robert Allen. Sorry, the question is, is the price going up or down? Is that what you are lower? Always higher for Bitcoin. Always higher than Eve crypto Raptor. I love that enthusiasm. I'm going to go higher as well. I'm pretty wrong. Well, stick with always higher, except I'm afraid that it might follow the market lower. Everyone thinks the crisis is over, but sadly, I'm afraid the crisis has just begun. Welcome to the 40 viewers in our YouTube chat. Be sure to give us a thumbs up. It's free. And it's how YouTube recommends videos to other people. So the more thumbs up, we get the more people will get recommended to the more people watch and the more people give us thumbs up and then so on and so forth. By the way, did you know we'll go viral tolly viral and the world crypto network has its own audio podcast on iTunes and wherever else podcasts are listened to. Listen to the latest interviews from HCPP and the lightning conference on the world crypto network audio podcast moving on to issue to Corona virus. The Corona virus continues to spread in the United States this week with many people now giving up on stopping the spread of the virus and working instead on flattening the curve. The idea of flattening the curve is that we can self quarantine avoid public places and public gatherings and get sick slowly rather than getting sick quickly. As you can see from the chart on your screen, if we get sick quickly, we'll quickly overstate or overwhelm the healthcare system. We know beds, there'll be no nurses, there'll be no medicine. So if we get sick slowly, the medical system can adapt and we can survive and we can have less damage from this spread. Meanwhile, President Trump has finally declared a national emergency, finally unlocking $40 billion in aid and testing is beginning, although it does seem like the national basketball league is really running things once they canceled their season. The rest of the sporting leagues fell behind them schools began to be canceled and we started to take this thing seriously much like the NFL who is running our drug treatment program here in the United States recently switching over from drug penalties to drug treatment. The national basketball league is the default and leader of the United States. Let's go to Dan Eve, what do you think so far about the coronavirus, the world response, how are things in the UK? I hear Boris is taking it very seriously, but still feverishly working on the trade deal. We'll just talk general coronavirus. Go ahead, Dan. Well, I mean, you know, a lot of people are freaking out massively. There's points where you kind of, you know, you go out for a drive and you see that like people's faces are almost fearful, especially as people walk past. But maybe that's just, you know, life in a city anyway. But I don't know. I think that you know, Bob Grohl is definitely out of stock at my local, you know, local shop of co-op, which means obviously it's really starting to hit home now about how much people are panicking. And although the prime minister was like really, really blasé about things. Yeah, I think it did shock a lot of people how kind of how how blunt he came up with, you know, we're going to lose sort of loved ones and it's really, you know, it's like an obvious thing to say anything. Why, why can't I say that? But it sounds like, you know, they've looked at the evidence, the data and they've come up with the plan that they don't want to kind of, you know, go for work now and, you know, maybe the timing will be better on. Now, the end of the day, like, you know, we can critique it, but the way I think of it is like, you know, if I trust a plane going up in the sky, and I know that you know, not a people to authority, but you know, specifically, but you know, obviously there's a big collective of people having a good thought process about this. And so, you know, I think it's got a lot of data on how it's how it's proliferated and spreading other in other countries. And so, you know, maybe the approach, it does sound a bit balmy, but maybe this will work of just kind of pretty much continuing. But yeah, I don't know if it's it's early, it's scary times at the end of the day. Yeah, very scary. Yeah, I kind of have the opposite opinion, I don't trust anything, but the UK government are very much guilty of behavior parenting that they're trying to do, you know, what technic rats do and that they're looking at the people and they don't want to give them all the information they wanted to carry on and go to football games, go to Cheltenham. Don't panic just now, we want you to panic, you know, in a few weeks time and when you panic in a few weeks time, that's when we're quarantining, you're always the data points towards obviously and it's common sense for a reason. If we if we if we quarantine now, if we take severe measures now, then it's going to have a much better effect at being the amount of people infected. It's just the way the exponential nature of this sort of virus spreading. I'm quite worried about the UK because you look at so if you watch some of the your words, the European, the UK went with the talk earlier today and it was on the measures they were going to be taking and there was lots of closures of public spaces and schools and other places were and large meetings of people to try and, you know, bring that curve down, whereas it kind of feels with Boris that the since, you know, the it's being classed as a pandemic, it's almost like they can just give up. You have one's going to get it. So we're just going to give up. I can't feel in the UK might have the same way as Italy unless it shapes up a little bit and starts taking taking it more seriously and start taking more appropriate measures to to curb the spread of the virus. When you mentioned in the US, you got $40 billion in aid, which Trump's putting towards the coronavirus, but they're pumping $500 billion dollars, the first company, $500 billion into the US stock market pretty much every other day throughout April. So to put into context, you know, the entire US military budget is $600 billion dollars. So it's a kind of a lot of money, which is getting pumped into to keep that stock market up to make Trump look good. I've read a series of articles recently where they're talking about the coronavirus response as a failure of society that we have a right to expect better from our society, especially a rich society and organized society like the United States or the United Kingdom. We've heard things like in the United States, they fired the preventative team. They got rid of the other team, all the people who would try to predict this while it's not happening. We're all let go. Shouldn't we expect more from our government instead? We're seeing what you say, Boris is kind of bringing his hand saying people are going to die. Trump seems in denial and perhaps infected with the virus himself. I mean, you could coughing. It's not. It's not it's not all governments, you know, if you look at the some money coin market cap is growing the virus numbers. I don't know what the name of the website, but it's the. It's also a chasel of stats for how many people have died in each country and how many people infected this updated daily and like. Hold me for a second. I didn't. World meters dot info. Yeah, I think that's it. I'm checking that check in it out every every few hours. And if you look at the Germans, I think maybe Scandinavia as well that they've got high effect rate much higher than UK, but they've got low draft rates. And a lot of that's due to their sort of very pragmatic and kind of approach to testing and and also, you know, taking sort of further measures quicker than we have been taking. So, yeah, I mean, it's I think this whole scenario highlights the as a society is human beings on on the planet. And sometimes you have big problems, which we need to solve. And it's not a case of, you know, three months, I guess we'll just solve those problems, for example. So, you know, I've been arguing for a long time for out for three years with people within the Bitcoin space, you always attack Kenzie economics and said that no, in certain circumstances, such as. You know, during the great depression, for example, governments are not going to stand by and let businesses fail that people lose their jobs, let food production slow to the point where maybe you know it's enough food for people to eat. They're going to prop up businesses, they're going to prop up industry, they're going to keep the economics rolling because they need to in order for people not to go hungry. And it's like, okay, inside deal with me, we'll let all these businesses fail and then we'll have like better markets, but. I'm talking about, you know, all those businesses out there who didn't, you know, budget a pandemic of some virus, which is going to kill millions of people potentially. So, to say that that, you know, that that that that that businesses, which deserve to fail, because they they they they weren't, you know, together enough to predict this thing and within the free market, it's ball, like, you know, that we just need to kind of keep. And so, you know, the economy is as safe and stable as we can we look after each other and we need to all pitch in all pitch together wartime effort and trying to fight this virus and that it hopefully, you know, that if we when we get through the survivors of 2020, they'll almost be like the survivors of war two. They would have experienced collectively something really quite tragic and horrible and then all suffered losses. So, they'll come together and say look, we there's some problems, which we need to solve, which we can't do individually if we try and individually, we just go fuck it up. And and and then hopefully they'll they'll they'll be much more peace loving people because it has felt like the world has got a bit more aggressive over the past few years, but no, it's it's absolutely terrifying. The coronavirus is really, really very serious Italy, for example, the Lombardi region, a lot of people look at the Italians and they think, oh, you know, it's it's Italy or you know, actually, Lombardi in New York, so one of the best health cases, Milan's got one of the best, it's one of the richest parts of Europe, it's got some of the best equipped hospitals and entire view and they're completely overwhelmed and lots of people are suffering lots of people are dying. So, severe measures needs to be taken now and failing out certain industries in order to keep you know food available for people is absolutely fine. So, yeah, I think it's it's it's very much time for a lot of Bitcoin is to themselves in the way to say because there's a lot of doom and you know, doom porn, craving Bitcoin as you wanted a catastrophe to happen so Bitcoin price can go whatever else and we can have citadons. And it's time to look in the mirror and they say look like is my politics does it really make sense in this this large modern world. And there are some other solutions in other fields of economics such as Kenzie economics and and making sure people, you know, economies are able to continue to move. Even if it does involve you know doing things like pretty money for example. So, so yeah, it's it's yeah, one of the more crazy times but it's very very scary, very scary look after yourself. It's all about the name of the game right now is immune system building just just go for drugs. Obviously don't contact me people when you go for your job, but your healthy food, like just build the immune system or which matters was Bitcoin is you know Bitcoin is they need to look after their beautiful bodies because we've got very poor words to. Over the next few years is it is it is it too soon sorry just very quickly it just rolled off the top of my head as it were when you said the coin market cap of like I just thought. So, I thought. COVID more. COVID more cap. Too soon. What say again, COVID more cap. COVID more cap. Yeah, so. I don't know if it's someone's going to come up with that. There's already a corona coin. Isn't that here. But there's there's so many of those those stats sites and I think if you look at like I tweeted earlier because I was looking for you the list on that corona the corona stats page. And if you look through the list it gives all like the really specific details of where people have actually been. So it says you know it doesn't give their name but you could probably guess it like the you know gave the example the Google Google employee in Bangalore went on holiday for. And so they're very specific and if you look in I think it's Singapore they've got like a Facebook of the virus so you can actually see where things have been where people have been and try to avoid it as much as possible. Like the heroic lawyer in New York City who spread it to more than 50 people. They have like little awards and little like stars for how well you've tried it how many. One good thing we have got in our favor is that the data collection we're doing now is absolutely phenomenal and the way in which countries are working together to share data is perhaps really really. They say China is now getting track on all their people they're getting all the tests all the medical records they're going into whole new areas that they weren't into previously. But I agree with Ben I agree with what you saying that the see spotlight video that the market didn't respond a lot of people they were hoping they had this dream that why didn't the labs jump on this why didn't people say hey there's a chance to make money on the virus if we get the test cats ready will be the ones who make the money. There wasn't anyone no one took that risk no one jumped on the virus there are some problems that the market can't solve and this is a big shattering earth shattering thing the libertarians are minds getting mad everyone's getting upset turn this off thumbs down whatever but that's what we've come up against here there are large problems such as war economic catastrophe environmental catastrophe nuclear plant explodes all these things where we do have to work together and that's. Where universal health care is going to come into this we're going to talk about Medicaid for all again in the United States we're going to talk about universal basic income we're going to talk about giving money directly to the people to try to get them through this because gig workers restaurant workers retail workers all the normal people that bring our society together all out of work right now and none of them get paid just for staying home you can't work a ticket line from home you can't work cashier from home this is not a solution there payroll tax cut doesn't help them we need to. We need actual direct aid and that's again going to break. We're in the art territory again right. Employment law and trade unions and what made America great you know it's that's what gave people decent enough incomes and so they could be sort of socially mobile and they could send them to college you look at the comparison of wages real world wages people are living on in the sort of 50s 60s it was phenomenal amount of money you know regular normal blue collar work. It's a salary so and that was all you know there's nothing. Good work to you can have a family where one person work one person stayed home had the choice. There's I mean there's nothing wrong with me like obviously you know BTC so it's a level but coming from but I mean like there's nothing wrong in thinking that you know you can sometimes you have to fight for your eyes and employee to have certain things in place such as like if you're sick you get paid you know this gig economy politics and just get rid of that. The gig economy does let me interject on the virus a little bit here. So I mean this may sound a little cold but there are a lot of people that how to put this simply like you know Bitcoin is beautiful because it's antifragile right and this is a benefit to the technology and I think maybe humanity is just in a need of a big virus to just call the herd a little bit. Remove some faulty genes from the from the from the population. You know my feeling my feeling is like if you're 70 or 80 you've lived a good long life. I mean my parents are in their 70s I definitely don't want them to die but I also know that is it's a possibility. So you know of course I've encouraged them to try to avoid public places and be careful and you know be healthy but at the end of the day like we're all going to die from something eventually. So you have a flu that goes around every season and 60,000 people die from that and life goes on. I understand this is a little more serious or at least that's what we're told. You know but I don't know to me I just kind of feel like I think I think you could have no government involved and yeah maybe there would be a few more deaths up front. But in the end maybe we would all benefit as as a species. One thing it's a good point like the you know the Boris and Co the science crew which want to say is that you know build herd immunity if the kind of if people who had we immune systems and were more likely to come help back a little which is obviously bad but you know it's kind of not just thinking about the economy but it could work out better for the overall population. So I think it's a good point to kind of have it in that staged way and when you think about it the some of the points they brought up one of the things I thought was quite a good point was the fact that if they shut off all the schools. All of the people would you know people that have got kids that would the kid would normally in school they might then have to give them to the grandparents and that's even more of a risk is then you've got super spreaders that go into the grandparents. So I think there's a lot of other kind of intangible benefits you know there's tangible and intangible benefits to both and I think that it's going to be very difficult to call whether this was a good you know a good decision to make but the one thing that kind of reassured me was the fact that and I know people with the chemicals for example you know people can. Can trails up in the air and they're killing everyone i'm like but you know surely the people that are doing it they're killing their own family they killing everyone blah blah blah and the argument that those scientists and you know because there were people those people heckling like the appeal to authority like the scientists but you know at the same time be you know we've got to be rational they've got facts and figures that we don't ultimately. And the fact is that they are all it's so close to people now where Trump shook hands with someone who had a photo someone and the English health minister is has got it now it's not like it's like it's out of their reach you know out of the reach of the rich people this is like in your face everyone could possibly have it so. The decisions I think it was slightly reassuring whilst a lot of people freaking out was thinking well they all know like you know the the what the decisions they make you know going to affect everyone around them their family it's not like something you can hide away from very well obviously my isolation so yeah it may be for the for the greater good it's just a very. Emotional thing to drag people through and you know i'm sad thinking of my grand that i saw recently and you know that that concerns me my parents for example they we're going to meet today but. We'd be sort of we've held it off because i'd feel awful if if you know we you know they came over to see my son and then he gave it to them so yes it's there's going to be some difficult times definitely and. And it's really not really it's not for the great good and we could could do the if you argue that point then you would you manufacture a virus and every age just release it and then kill off. Anyone who slightly weak and then just have like a superior race and then you're going down a thought. Try on which some people have gone down in the past and. i'm not saying like i i'm saying I think. Just talking about her her genetic. Yeah. I think it is all. We're talking about horses here we're not talking about people men and people like all these people were above this we influence the food chain we. Build the spaceships we build the rockets like we're not going to just let. You know a third of the people die because we couldn't fill out the forms in time we couldn't make the test fast enough we couldn't have the. You know forms for the drive through things set up I mean we're supposed to be organized or supposed to be above this like we have this incredible capacity. For war. It's not a third of the people right it's two two percent is I think what I've heard is like the worst case scenario. For the. I mean if you go on that website with the statistics and you'll see that I think it's the death toll is I think it's 6% now and we're 10000 total cases. So I mean maybe you could argue that some people who don't display there's a certain amount who don't actually display any symptoms it's a large number one of them weren't living in the first place if you aren't really fully living your your trueest and best life then you know maybe you don't deserve it right. Another good point is as well that so far it's only hit developed economy I mean it's a hit China and they've got you know pretty good they're organized and they can build the hospitals in a couple of weeks. So they could deal with that they have and then it's hitting the line which got like the richest in the post one of the best functioning health services in the entire Europe. But when it hits you know sub-Saharan Africa and India. What if what if trying to smash down the curve is actually a negative because it I don't know the virus is able to mutate or something you know is it I mean I guess this is this is my position in general is that. Governments try to help and they almost always like 99 point some 9% don't really do what they're trying to do they don't actually affect the the help that they're claiming to deliver and in the end they enrich their friends their buddies. You know and and I mean this is a perfect example that like if if the people in charge really were wanting to quote help everyone then maybe they would do like a helicopter money thing and give everyone a thousand bucks they'll never do that you know I can't imagine that ever happening and if it does it's also mentally not as smart move anyway for a lot of other reasons my opinion but. No it'll never happen well that that is the big difference and we want to look at this is a worldwide issue in China they have the very strong government they were able to quarantine to lock down to control their population in Italy you might say they have a very kind government because exactly what Robert said will never happen in the US and I pretty much agree. They recently waived mortgages they waived bills they waived credit cards they help the actual people who are affected by this now today Trump has I think in the speech he said he was waving interest on student loans so that's something that's a part of this they've talked about payroll taxes but again that's always kind of been the next tax they wanted up you know they just they're just going off their list of what they would like. Actually giving out the money actually doing you be I actually dropping the money I even heard I was shocked to hear it on CNBC today a guy from the American enterprise institute a very conservative group said exactly what I said you said you don't need a new program we don't need a new government thing that says oh are you wealthy or you. Do you meet the qualifications we have to do all these tests you just fire up the check printing machines we have these fantastic check printing machines we use for tax refunds we have this great database with everybody's name and address in it and I don't care what the amount is a grand to grand three grand what we need to do and again this is going to horrify everyone but I heard about this the general idea here friend of mine told me about this Facebook post and I'm sure it's kind of some hippie thing but basically what they said is when I watch CNBC. We think about America we think about capitalism and the big engine of money that we've built and what you know we build all these widgets and all these things we need to put that on pause for maybe a month or two and this is horrifying and stop the world and all these things but if we could put that on pause we could put the money making idea even the idea that you need to work from home you just need to stay home you need to stay home and not get sick you know and if that means sleeping more and not stressing out and taking some immune drugs. Take some vitamins vitamin C drink some orange juice all these kind of things that's what society actually needs is a money making working holiday just give the people five grand give the people 10 grand say hey it's America month everybody's going to stay home read some books put out some websites have some tell people what to do they even said my brother said on CNBC that they said here's the best TV shows to stream this is a financial channel this is not entertainment they don't use the word. They usually recommend breaking bad or some pranels or whatever they ended up saying that you should stream but what they're saying is staying home doing nothing not stressing out that's actually the best for our society that's against all of our capitalist ideas all of our capitalist ideas are stay stressed out work more never take a vacation no paid sick leave no healthcare for everybody we're not interconnected but once again as as Dan was saying it's starting to leak into the rich people and as sad as it is they need to be effective. Trump needs to be affected his family needs to you know experience sickness and I don't want them to experience loss that's not acceptable for anybody but everybody's going to lose somebody in this and the sooner you lose somebody the more you know how serious it is the sooner somebody you know gets sick the more real it becomes for you and a lot of people this this triple whammy of the no Europe travel the NBA cancelling all basketball games which affects people who ignore politics people ignore world issues they just watch basketball. It's no more basketball combined with Tom Hanks the legendary actor just everybody's friend getting sick brought it home to everyone they're like wait a minute if Tom Hanks can get it he's a big fancy celebrity if this basketball player can get it he's a big fancy celebrity I'm a normal guy you know I'm going to get this thing Trump's going to get his cousin his sister his daughter all these people that work and interact with people and have to get food sometime we're all going to get it. Yeah go ahead it's going to have a huge impact on on future society so I got a professor friend of mine who said that because they're sort of prepping so they can talk so they can teach remotely so that you know the students will be at home and they'll be completing work home to me such a home and I'll be you know sending lectures remotely. And then my professor friends where's that because they think also this this is going to last a few months that it will show that so much education can just be had you don't need to step into a university for example a lot of education to just be accessed you know what I mean it will kind of prove that like a I mean we have you know open university and things in the UK which work on a similar principle but it'll prove to the masses that it's very plausible and possible and they think that it's going to have a massive rippling effect for. The way in which people access education our education in the future I think probably the same for the second judge occasions also it's going to it's the impact this is going to have on society is going to be absolutely massive and I think Thomas is writing thinking that actually it's capitalistic to think that you know rather than needlessly go out and work and all affect each other and dying not be able to access I see you units does not enough of them to give ourselves a little holiday and then bring that curve down and then so people can actually actually. Access medical treatment so less people can die and more people can work and you know that this capitalistic to work better so so I think it could be argued that it's not it's not some sort of coming with this more like a pragmatic there's a bugging system we need to clean out you know or to a wartime effort to fight some invader which is the virus so so it's going to have huge impact on on future society for sure. I think which people work you know people working remotely like companies will realize that maybe employees that needs come to work maybe they can just work out when it worked you know during that time you could see it already I went to the store recently and everyone was kind of standing away from each other everyone was afraid to touch each other everyone's afraid to be in the same area that social anxiety that maybe only a few of us computer geeks or nerds had is now spreading to the rest of society Robert what do you think is this going to change society what's the world going to be like or what's the world is going to be like. We're just going to forget this in six months it was just a temporary thing. I mean I'll take the other side. Shit sorry. I'll take the other side and say that my positive this but there's a chance that this whole thing is a sia up cover for a market that was already going to crash anyway so you know politicians get together and think how can we divert everyone's attention away from the shit show that we've created here. We'll create this scary super virus thing and who knows maybe they even released it on purpose who fucking knows I mean the Chinese government obviously had a lot of people protesting in Hong Kong and other places they have a very strong reason to come up with an excuse to go start dragging people out of buildings throwing them into into hospital beds claiming that they're giving them a vaccine when they could have been murdering them. I just have so little trust and confidence and governments the world around that I honestly don't know what to think but it's probably overblown and it's probably a sia up and I'm really not that worried about it and again like yes people will die but people always die for various reasons again like I said 60,000 Americans died last year from the flu. No one's freaking out about that and shutting down schools and all this shit so I don't know I just I don't know what to say for sure but I'm not that worried about it and life will go on and also there's the economic you know pain that's being inflicted that ultimately does result in life and death for people surviving and so when you shut down in an entire economy that's going to have repercussions that maybe we're not a factory in here so you know I don't know what to think really. But like I said I'm just highly skeptical of the official narrative. I do agree with Robert I was expecting the bear market we have had a 10 year or a 20 year bull market in the United States it just goes up and up and up it's got to go down at some point they're saying now that we're in the bear we went 20% down they're expecting a recession partially caused by this virus partially just caused by this 10 year cycle but Robert mentioned conspiracy theory so I want to go ahead and open it up and go down to the end of the day. I'm not going to open it up is not officially a conspiracy theorist I think that's a negative term but I watched an interesting video recently where the guy basically drew a line from an American bio weapons facility that's shared with the chat with the Canadians and the British that's in Winnipeg perhaps the disease was stolen from there taken to a Chinese facility in Wuhan. We have this question mark where the Chinese facility either accidentally gives it to this wet market where they serve bats and all kinds of other weird foods or on purpose gives it to a wet market or accidentally on purpose or whatever something like that it leaks it gets out then there's this whole kind of eugenics virus question for a long time and I don't I don't like to talk about this but this is a true historical fact. People don't like people that don't look like them and they've been trying to make viruses that kill people that don't look like them but leave the other people okay. I'm going to say this is this this this is we all know that it's plausible that somebody possible to be able to develop a virus which could have this sort of effect on people and you could target. I don't know if you want to get rid of all the boomers so you can have houses on the market so more people can it's possible for all that for to make a virus which targets a certain segment of the population and I'm sure that none of us truly trust our governments enough that they wouldn't at some point some idiot using control like a Trump or or wherever else the religious might think that it's a good idea to release a virus in we we hands kind of like a Chicago enchantments is a industrial. City so if you want to sort of attack China's not bad place to attack so. It's a plausible theory this is the problem like it's a conspiracy and it sounds a bit nutty and the likelihood is it probably just crossed our own from an animal but it's plausible like we none of us trust. Not always put it not put it past our governments to do such a thing and we know the technologies are available. I get I mean this is and again that brings us back to that question that this is going to happen again you know this this could be one of a whole batch of new viruses which which which you know store through the human population to kill a lot of people. And one thing I want to say and I don't think it's political at all but I don't think we need bio weapons programs I don't think that we really needed the nuclear bomb although again we got nuclear power out of that so that's a two for but if you look at biological weapons. I don't think generally we get the same kind of spin offs over making horrible diseases that we do out of other things from a government from a democracy perspective I think we should have a vote I think we should know how much we're spending where we're spending it I guess maybe not where that's the way. But I mean we have to be able to say like scientists don't work on this don't work on this project drags away. And this is why society needs to change if we're going to get some star-trail utopia we haven't killed ourselves. Then society will need to change will need to look after it doesn't know what the way around it you need to look after each other you can't be competing to the not trusting each other just one work you'll do things like job horrible viruses and the industrial city to give yourself the edge. So I agree with that so completely. I mean this is why I would argue that you know to me I would say maybe a minarchist or you know maybe someday in the future if you have the technology to be truly anarchists as a globe I would be in favor but to get us there I think the first step for humanity is that we we decentralize and we break apart our large government structures because these large governments are the ones that are creating the bio weapons and the nuclear weapons and so on. You know you don't you don't have little brinky dink countries creating bio weapons you have in the United States you have China and so on. As viruses they become like open source so kind of you would need some sort of organized force to counter things that you know you got freely printers now people can like bioengineer stuff at home you know tinkering in a futuristic lab maybe so maybe you know maybe you need a some sort of consensus based. I don't know anti bio warfare thing like renegade groups or something. I think like it's kind of almost like you know when working in some of the software and hardware stuff we work on we're made aware of how easy it is just fox systems up like I'm hobbyist I could go and break a lot of systems and I can still quite a lot of money and I'm not okay well I'm doing that I'm amazed that more people don't do those things like I can make a device and I can go and I can kill Wi-Fi hotspots and I can I can take out you know. Camera systems and there's a lot of black hats yet probably a lot of us could do if we wanted to even if you just wanted to break stuff but we don't and those things do happen but actually I'm amazed it doesn't happen more and I think the reason it doesn't happen more is because fundamentally people are quite nice. So that's the thing I'm cleaning on to that people are quite nice so hopefully although yes they will develop like a 3D printed gun not everybody with a 3D print is going to go and solve 3D printing semiautomatics and moan people down so and I think probably similar with like a free and open source biological warfare project which is very plausible very possible I think people are fundamentally nice and they don't want to hurt each other you go into a big city and you think how is someone just statistically not going nuts now and like killing people like this is the so many people in this small space like surely there's some nutter here who wants to kill someone and there isn't you know it's so but yeah no I think that's a really good point. I have confidence in you know the generally speaking that most humans are trying to do good I think the problem I see is that governments operate with a different set of morality and we as a society many people at least are okay with governments having a different set of morals than a normal person and I think that's where this this a lot of these problems originate. So I don't know how we get to a point where people are able to recognize that you know if it's wrong to steal as a individual then it's wrong for a group of people to gather around someone else and take their money by force and call it taxation so that's where you know for me I think a lot of these things and this is where I differ probably from some that would be more on the social spectrum is I think we have to we have to move from a place of first principles where we acknowledge that there is universal moral truth for all humans and that we have to get to a point where we can agree on a few of these basic principles and then if we could do that and then enforce those collectively basically at that point but just having some laws that we all follow I think we could get to a point where governments are actually working for the benefit of people and protect them. So I think that's where the United States you know for a brief period experimented and made some progress in that direction but the country's is you know has become overrun now by you know I don't know if you're going to call it an oligarchy or whatever term you want to use club club to see corporate to see but you know it's gone very far away from those ideals and now we're all tax slaves in this country or at least we're told that we are and that's true the rest of the world around and so I just I have no fear of the fact that I'm not going to be able to do that. I think that's the only way to make a difference is to have faith or confidence that that these large governments will ever work for the people because it is in their interest to use the people as slaves effectively and so that to me is like we need a moral revolution of humans standing up and saying you know what if it's wrong to steal it's wrong to steal if it's wrong to murder it's wrong to murder it doesn't matter if you're wearing you know a fancy outfit and you you say that you're a general or whatever it doesn't change the morality of the situation. So I don't know how we get to that point where people understand that but that I believe is the only solution. I mean I think you're right in you know the anarchist the anarchist so you know there's always a problem in conflating tax with socialism it's like yeah okay in order to have socialized control over or production or whatever else then you can tax taxes away in which you take the money off everybody and then you pull that money together and you have a house service you have education you have roads the roads whatever else but that's not per se socialism that's just a tool which could be used to socialize control there are other tools which could be used to socialize control which is where the kind of anarchist thoughts came came came out of the not pass that period in history the the becunins and whoever else so I think anarchism probably is the answer so you know but not not anarchism isn't not having rules it's just sort of having rules on a kind of more local smaller basis which then and if you look at some of the anarchist anarchist flouder she's had like in the Spanish revolution and in the redriver and Syria they're very successful at organizing themselves but that is it's a bottom up organizations opposed to top down organization and that that's effective in a way where well in the Spanish revolution for example with the the the biggest problem they had was when the communists and the fascists came in they just annihilated them because they hadn't they hadn't dedicated any of their resources to to to armaments and guns and an army because their society didn't need that they didn't want that they wanted to they wanted to focus on you know looking after each other and schools and whatever else and producing enough food for each other so so yeah now that this is society will have to change like we can't you just we can't expect that you know we haven't reached the end of history society wall change and develop we've got to get that start right utopia but yeah no it's it's the the the argument I like it's I'm I'm in the face that you know to socialize control to decentralize control is not giving all power to to state or all power to state or government if anything it's eroding that power by by the people being in control and that's the actual kernel of definition for something like socialism and anarchism to all child leftist tradition I mean and I think it is long I mean I would say as long as your your vision as a world where people are voluntarily associating and voluntarily you know providing value to other people and giving money I mean if you want to be a part of a communist quote communist you know syndicate or whatever you want to call it as long as people aren't you know showing up at your door with a gun and demanding that you give something to their cause or their government or whatever then that's fine I think it just comes down to people voluntarily associating and voluntarily contributing in my my issue is when it's because I I see that as soon like regardless of what your your utopian vision is as soon as you say that it's okay for one group or for even a collective of people to use the power of the government or the state or whatever you want to call it to go and deliberately take from others by force because they voted on it that always devolves historically it has always devolved into you know a murderous terrible tyrannical system and I don't see any examples otherwise and so until someone can explain how you can you know and again this to me comes back to first principles because if you have a coercive way of arranged society than that coercion is going to ultimately even if it starts out with noble intent it's going to be you someone who is who is not someone who is a sociopath right most people tend to be a person who is an anti-short to work out the way and then you know what I mean I think that's a great thing noble intent, it's going to be used someone who is not someone who is a sociopath, right? Most people tend to be good, but there are some sociopaths, some people who truly are not wired in a such a way that they can understand these things. And so they will take that control, they will use those guns, they will murder the opposition, and they will create a totalitarian government. And this has happened time and time again. And so that's where I get really worried by people who think that socialism is a good approach to anything because- Oh no, it very much- It's very much like talking about it's Leninism, Leninism and Stalinism. So Lenin thought that you could- You don't know. You don't know. ..to get production and then eventually they would work towards a socialist ideal. But that's Leninism, it's not socialist Lenin- Well, so- How does socialism avoid this problem of governments taking the power from the rest of the people because they have the control, they have the guns, and they pass on- Well, this is- They overworked- And Marx had a tendency towards establishment and having establishment organizing stuff. And Bakunin argued with him, Macal Bakunin argued with the he's a socialist also. But then a very prominent anarchist, he said that that train of thoughts and that way of trying to organize society will only ever end up with, you know, dictatorship. You won't have your socialist utopia. And long a hold, you know, that's what happened with Lenin. And then Stalin took the reins and- The first thing that I did is they went and they killed all the trade unionists and they did all the things they- Which were completely against the idea of building a socialist utopia. And then they called that socialism and then other countries modeled themselves off it. And then it worked played into the- But if you look traditionally at socialism, what socialism is socialized control, and that approach, like you say, is awful. And they have been thinkers and philosophers who've recognized that way back when. And still recognize it now as being a terrible approach to trying to socialize socialize control. Anyway, we should- I don't want to co-op this entire show and- So that's why socialism has never worked. But you haven't explained a system- I mean, I would argue socialism has worked. So, you know, I live in the health system. I was born in the NHS. I- My kids go to a state-flamed school. I have roads. I wish I could drive up and down. Our entire capitalist system is- You know, works within a framework of- of a sort of state socialist approach. So- So you denied care, though? Like, I mean, if they decide that it's not worth, you know, putting you in the hospital for whatever reason, or, you know, you could be waiting in lines. I mean, I- I don't think these- Like you said, the government can't see it. They- They don't work well and they're breaking down from my understanding Canada and other places. I don't care. Because you don't have market price- I mean, you go to the hospital. That's how it gets to the hospital. I don't know. Well, statistically, and that- That consistently- State-flamed topics is health care systems. Even switch- I mean, even if the systems did work, my argument would just basically be that you- Your- Your country has benefited from centuries of- of- of capitalism where you had pricing mechanisms in place. And that if you remove those, the system will eventually grind to a halt and break. And, you know, so- This is a problem. It's that the centralized pricing, centralized control, this- The Stalinist approach- Right. It's definitely- Right, but that- You can't stop. Yeah, but that- That's exactly what's happening though in- In a- In a quote- So even a modern socialist country like- No, I mean, so if you had a- It's the same thing. If you had a free market, say you had like active working cooperatives, they could operate within a free market. Hopefully, outcome- You know, the- The capitalist models in my opinion. And that's the way- So you just mean a- A different business structure. You're- You're basically saying people would voluntarily associate, they would create something they call it socialist, but ultimately it's just a different business structure. I mean, that's fine. That's just- That's fine. That's just capitalism. It's a cooperative. It's not capitalism because there's no capitalist. You've got control of reduction and- It's not capitalism. So, just- You're just- You're just- This is a semantic argument. I mean, so- No, it's not semantic argument. How long? If someone- If someone got a own, is there going to be a building that's owned by- By- By this group? Did they own- There's a hospital, right? You're- You're talking about a hospital, right? So if it's a hospital, then there's a group of people- No, no, no. Talk about- Talk about production. So if you're talking about- Talk about something like a factory, for example. Okay. That's a factory. Talk about a- A new bus. Where the taxi driver's actually a new bus, you know? Well, let's stick with a factory. So if it's a socialist thing that you're talking about, basically what you're saying is- What you're saying is all the people who work at the factory own the factory. And then they all get together and decide how to operate it, right? I mean, how is that any different from a corporation where every person who works at the corporation owns part of the stock of that corporation? So again, this is just semantic. But- We're not going to make an observation on such a structure that didn't exist in the time of Marx. And you could argue that maybe the reason in which we have like- Shared ownership of companies is through- People recognize in this- Corporations didn't exist in the time of Marx. I don't think that's what I'm saying is- Is- is- Corporations own- People owning shares in a company they worked for didn't exist. They come out of the- They come out of the- After Marx. Well, okay. I'm just saying again, I think this is semantic because I don't know why in the past it would have been- It would have been unfeasible for someone who worked at the factory if there was a public stock exchange and there was stock in that company that was being sold. They could go and buy that stock and own a part of the company they work for. I mean, this is happened all throughout U.S. history. Yeah. It's how- It's how- How do you approach building that structure where the people own the means of production? The- The community is a whole- Yeah, it's called capitalism. That's- We already have that. Capitalism is the capitalist owning the means of production. No, no. Well, okay. This is against semantic. What I'm saying is simply this that- That- You know, I- I'm for a free society meaning that any individual is free to buy anything they want with the money that they- That they- You know, they earn, right? And that they're able to- To keep the product of their labor and invest it how they want. That- That's- That's what capitalism is. And so, you know, you can try to say that it's something about rich people- Only things. I don't think that's true. I think if you just look at the definition, but again, we can throw out the word capitalism. Like- Look at addiction definition of capitalism. It's- It's- It's- I'll look it up right now. Let's just have a look. Give it that. Oh, thank you. And economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit rather than by the state. So private owners can be anyone. Anyone can own stock in a company. You don't have to be some rich do- Not do me- No, again, as long as that system is in place where you don't have like a two tiered thing where like, oh, you're in oligarchs so you can own property, but now you're a surf so you can't. I mean, of course that would be terrible, but that's not what capitalism is. That's not how it works. There's not any kind of- But the argument would be that, you know, because of the way- Because of the way which- A more getting the edge through, um, what's the word division of labor, for example, I'm some misdivision of labor. Um, then eventually say it centralizes always centralizes you end up with maximum corporations, maximum companies, which control everything. I don't know if that's true. I think that massive corporations. And they can exist potentially, but I think a lot of times it's more that you have governments that help to entrench them in specific industries where, you know, the corporation grows, then they use the government to say, look, if you, if you want to compete, you have to jump across, you have to, you know, here's all these barriers to entry, right? And they set up barriers and they, they, they, they basically entrench themselves in their position and that they're able to do that because they use the power and the violence and the coercion of the government. Right. So if the government doesn't exist, then that corporation can only go to you with, with their product and say, hey, would you like to buy our product and you as a consumer can say, yes, great, I'll buy it or not. And if the, if it's a giant monopoly and they're providing good services and they're treating everyone well, then they, then I really don't even care if a monopoly occurs, although I don't think that will happen. I'll decide a government coercion. Let me give you an example. Okay, so this is just as a thought experiment, right, just to try. So you've got two Amazon's, you've got decentralized Amazon, okay, and you've got normal Amazon with Jeff base us decentralized Amazon producers, they get most of the, the value in which they put into the system, they, you know, most of the value they get back, there isn't a surplus which goes to a Jeff base, I still make his, you know, lofty profits towards the big boom, we come in the first trillion, I know it's completely hypothetical, completely hypothetical silly, you know, you're not going to have a functional cow up or decentralized system, which could possibly work as well as Amazon, because you need, you know, authority or you need a food list system and all this has such a successful company, but just hypothetically, these two companies exist decentralized Amazon normal Jeff base us Amazon, the products and bugs these companies cost exactly the same, you have the choice to sit down at your computer, they have the exact same products delivered to the exact same speed, the exact same price, this is just a hypothetical hypothetical idea, which one are you going to shop in, you got a choice, you can either shop in the normal Amazon with the Jeff base us or you can shop in the decentralized Amazon where you know that most of the value is going to the producers of that. Which one are you going to pick? Probably most people would pick the second option, of course decentralized Amazon because people know and they recognize that this is this is, I want to make. Stopping you doing that today right there's no reason why you you couldn't set up. Why doesn't it exist right either it doesn't exist because it's it's not economically feasible or because the current models work better than that I don't know, but I mean there's no reason why you shouldn't try and I think that's great, but again that's all voluntaryism. I we should cut this I think because I think Thomas is going over the last the last thing I just want to say is this look I mean I just think that like what you're getting at seems pretty reasonable to me. But using to me like when I hear the word socialism I associate it with with mass murder and and government coercion and authoritarianism so I would say that like you'll get a lot further with people if you just drop that term. Really loaded and. It's very important to me gross term. Well, if people want to use if people want to think of that term in that way because how can you not think of it in that way I mean that's what it is. Do you need to go to Google define socialism? Did I be different capitalism just the last thing before we finish. Oh my god. All right, I mean. Go on it's it's going to be something gross. Go and define socialism. Let's see. You mean Tom, Tom. A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production distribution exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Nothing about tax. I mean fair enough but but you know when you have every every every example in history is a coercive authoritarian nightmare. It's just a term that you might be better off just leave him behind that's all I'm saying you know because I'm all about voluntaryism and people you know associated how they want if you want to set up a collective. Social security in the United States works fine. The problem was it's a giant failure. It's the bonds that's bankrupt. What are you talking about? Well on the street dying. It's bankrupt because the government the politicians stole the money. Al Gore in the year 2000 wanted to put the money in a lock box. They laughed at him. You know what happened? They stole the money. It's gone now. I know I know. It was but that's my point. Well the money. No it's solved the problem. There's not old people dying on the street right now because of poverty. That's what social. I don't think there were I don't think there were old people dying on the street where go back and read about the great depression. Go back and read about FDR. Go back and read about the WPA. Well hold on actually that's not even true because there's a lot of homelessness. There's a lot of homelessness and. Yes there's a lot of homelessness in San Francisco. L.A. We've got homelessness in New York. We got the solutions. We've funded really old people. So it's just. Thomas we've got we've got thousands of people. Many of them old on the street in the US dying of starvation and living in tents. And basically. Universal basic income. We could increase taxes on the Google companies that are taking our data. As Andrew Yang said. Oh my god. All right. Let's just move on this. I can't. I don't know. Social security is universal basic income for old people. It's socialism. And it works so good that everyone who has it loves it. The same thing with Medicare. It's socialized medicine. And again, these other countries there are fringe cases. If you have an obscure kind of answer. It's difficult to get. If you have any kind of cancer in the US, you go bankrupt and you wipe out your whole thing. So what's worse, financial destruction or minor problems for obscured diseases. Financial destruction is worse. We live in a complicated system where pre pre treating diseases, giving people the chance to do things before they get the disease to. Before they get. Thomas, if all this stuff. Well, increases the whole society. Look at this. If this will work so well, then why are there so many homeless people on the streets of LA, San Francisco, New York City, etc. And demand the weather is fantastic. The government. The government. No, no, no. I'm just saying it homeless people in Minnesota. When it's freezing cold on the streets of London, why are there so few homeless people? Oh, it's the weather. It's. Look, I'm not saying. Look, I'm not saying it. It doesn't matter. Pick the city. I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it. My point is that you're trying to say that these systems work. And what I'm telling you is that they can't work because it's built on theft. And it's built on coercion. And it's built on giving a small group of people a ton of economic power and expecting that they're not going to abuse that. And that they're going to use it effectively and that that the pricing systems are going to work. And that's the problem. And I believe that that is very true. The theft when I drive on the road. I drive on the roads without paying and it's theft. I use the roads for my businesses. My business is right there on the street and gets mail and the mailman walks on. There's no reason you've connected. Everything is connected. And we can try to play. You have to have toll roads. That's very simple. I'm going to win. You're going to lose and I have health care and you don't have health care. You know, I'm going to get my drugs cheaper, prescription drugs. We're all going to work better if we work together. That's what this coronavirus is. This is proving that we're all connected. And if the lowest guy who works. This is the utopianism of socialism. That is total nonsense. It's real. You could you could argue this is more more Nash and and people working together to try find. So the equilibrium that you know working together. The winery in relationship. Yes, if it all worked as you claim or wish it did, that would be great. But it's a utopian idea that has proven to not work. It's proven to centralize power in the hands of criminals who use it to do terrible things. When you say that it's taxed in this country does not help people. It's used to build bombs to send people around the world and spreading warfare and destruction. It's just. It's just. It's really sad. Navies to open new markets. And they're not using their navies to project power on the world. The capitalists are doing nothing. I will say I will say that this is actually it may sound like we're having a terrible terrible like. Late night ran annoying late night ran we should be stopped immediately, but actually. This is probably quite important because you know our economies are crashing. We have got this incredible horrible virus, which is is going to have more of an impact on the current way in which we produce things like people will question. The current way in which we're producing if we have like a depression and recession all these other things. And there will be questions around maybe there's other ways of producing things. Now my worry would be like Robert was saying that more power goes to state to more power goes to government. There's a lot of lefties and there are a lot of like state socialist types. You think that you can just give I've worked for state I've worked for government. They're incredibly inefficient. The terrible awful. And I don't want that side of the left to kind of get more power. And there will be a point where more more people are going to start talking and questioning the way which produced things and maybe could produce things differently. And that is going to happen directly because of this virus and the measures which you've been taking. And I know who knows what the answers are. I don't think anyone should profess to know what the answers are. But I think I think the reason in which we fall and into this debate is because it's probably the sort of debate a lot of people are going to be having in the next in the coming months. They're going to be questioning the whole way in which our society structured which they probably should do. Maybe they'll find some good synthesis. And you are an enigma. I really am struggling to understand you because you you. You speak of socialism in a positive light, but you also claim you don't want the leftist in your country to or in any country to. I don't want to. I don't want to. How does this whole thing work out? I just don't get it. The only thing that I've got is the way I've got that's the way I've seen it. Right. I've got a lot of people who just think that you can if you just give power to states, they can make a whole bunch of decisions for give power to government and that way. I'll parent you to make a whole bunch of good decisions, and it just doesn't work. Well, that's what Thomas is advocating for basically. I don't know if you've got money. You don't want to go all the stuff. Priorities, you get to set the priorities. When you have a corporation, your only priority is your responsibility to make profits to your shareholders. Destroy the forest. for the shareholders. At the government level when we originally chartered corporations such as the Dutch East India Corporation, which was the very first corporation, it was chartered for the good of the state to open a trade route to India so that Amsterdam and the Netherlands would be improved by access to trade and new goods. We can say that with corporations like prescription drugs, you can't gouge people like the coronavirus vaccine, you have to give it to a free, you have to make less profit on it. We have the scale where the drug is under copyright for a little while then it goes out of copyright becomes a generic drug. These are controls we've put on systems. The main thing that we have to get down here is that it's not unrestricted capitalism versus socialism. The true answer is in the middle with a controlled version of capitalism, with a controlled version of socialism, where we do check against those bullet boroughs and those gangs of power and those strong men that take control of these systems. And basically what's happened is yes, most of the socialist or communist experience have been taken over by strong men by groups of power such as the Chinese ruling group that rules their government. They're not true experiments in this but again, they lived in an unsafe world where the rest of the world was working against them and it's never going to be a safe world. It's never going to be a vacuum. All of these programs we try to put down as if people were moral, as if they were this, as if they were that we can't have them in the vacuum. We need something strong, something that will survive like Bitcoin. As Andrea said, sewer rat and the bubble boy and Bitcoin's a sewer rat is anything. But I want to talk to Dan, anything going on with Dan? Oh yeah, how are we going? Oh, it's on your head. Oh yeah, I did try and sneak in me. I wasn't going to try and put my foot in the door too much. I was actually a really good conversation. I don't have, I'm not really at that knowledge point in terms of like socialist and capitalist and stuff. But I must admit that I do think that just that the one thing that we're seeing at the moment is that the extremes are getting all the media. So you don't have right left moderates anymore. You literally just have like everyone's a Nazi or everyone's a snowflake. That polarization and this isn't good for anyone really. I like to try and dip my toes into lots of different ideas and then come up with a happy medium because often when you believe so passionately about something, you can't see the negatives in it. You can't see the evidence right in front of your face. We can also come to that when we believe in something so much. So yeah, like chill out people fuck. I hopefully we just, we don't all kill each other and the world's not going to end. And if so anyway, like the quarantine was amazing so far because I've been learning some more Python and and fashion stuff now. I've been doing, I've been curling one out with some curl and some APIs and some gets and ding dong and this and that and and it's been really good actually. Yeah, just being able to kind of, you know, build and learn. So build and learn guys. If you're going to be quarantined, do something cool, do something useful, even if it has no particular use. If you want to check out what I'm doing, look at GitHub slash Cryptopoli and it's just, I've basically put a few repositories in there and one of them, I'm going to convert it to Bitcoin but essentially, it's like a menu for Bitcoin IPC calls but on the terminal and it just, so I've done it for ocean, which is a fork of elements by comments by, so it's a sidechain but it's the same principle essentially but like, you know, it's got a nice little menu and it will index all the commands like, so it'll tell you like pick number one, one, four to list unspent transactions rather than having to type it in and stuff. So I'm just doing some random crap, you know, it may not be useful to anyone but yeah, that was, that was a big waffle, isn't it? I suppose I haven't talked for a while so it's pretty difficult to get out. Tanner reminds me of a great quote where they said, idealists believe in ideals but pragmatists believe in what works. So let's move on to the exit question, how long do you think the world will be impacted by coronavirus one year, three years or longer than from Wales? For ever, man, it's a game of change, the world's going to change, people are going to change after it's, it's a huge, we're just starting, it's just running, you know, just terrifying. So yeah, for forever, we're going to be impacted forever. Robert Allen. Six months. Six months done. All right, Dan Eves. I'm with, I'm with Trump, but I think it's a hoax and I'm going to build myself a steam powered rocket so that I can like fly up to the to the earth so I can see all the coroners by racing and yeah, and then I'll prove every wrong. Only a steam powered rocket can save you. I agree with Ben, where forever change is going to change all of our societies. It's epic world changing, but we'll forget about it in a few years anyway. We'll say, oh, why do you do that with your hand washing or whatever you're, don't you remember the coronavirus? And they'll say, the coronavirus, I don't remember that. But yeah, you use the seashells. Yeah, maybe that's like there's the, we're going to like, is all these films are getting so good at predicting like the random futures that we have. Maybe that's it, maybe the three, it needs, you need three seashells and then you're like, you know, that you're immune to coronavirus. So that's your score like, I tried to think about how that would work. So like one of them would would would clean you. The other one would would dry you and then the other one would flush. Happy ending. Yeah, but like, then maybe happy to take the fall. Just for people that don't know about the, I think it's a 1991 classic demolition man 1995 with the Sylvester Stallone and Sandra Bullock and Dennis Leary and this great, sorry, sorry, where they free a, while they freeze a criminal for some reason, not a good idea. Then they freeze a police officer just because he was framed. Then they get to the future, they unfreeze the criminal, they unfreeze the police officer and they have a great battle all over a beautiful futuristic Los Angeles where there's no more cursing. Every time you curse a little machine beeps, which as a kid, I thought was the great spot then you are fine. One ticket for him or that's exactly right. And there's also a great thing about how no one touches each other anymore. There's no sexual content that use this kind of virtual reality thing to have sex of at the time seem very futuristic. Now we're right there, right? We're right on the edge of this. In addition, the future predicted that in the future, all restaurants will be Taco Bell. That is a, that is a, that is like a comedy-style in a stutopia. Like it's a, it's a, I mean, there were dreams, it's a beautiful functioning society, but then actually all the people who want to be creative and thinkers and think for themselves and do messed up things like when around naked, like they, they were just living the sewers and they're not allowed to be integrated into the rest of society. So actually, so it's a great film, really. Really good vehicle too for Dennis Larry's stand up. He kind of represents the right wing, male meat eating view. I have the kind of a libertarian even really has the right to smoke cigarettes, the right to eat meat, the right to do what he wants to do. Whereas this controlling society says, no, you were a part of our society. You need to make money for our society. We need to keep you healthy. We need to educate you. We need to track you. And I think this is really what we're talking about. This big argument, this debate, this discussion we had today has to do with that spectrum and where you are. And if you think we should be more productive or less productive or if that's too or well in or if, or well is even a bad thing or if this is good. The end, the end slice to learn. He says, he says to Larry's like, you need to get a lot cleaner. And then he says the other guy, you need to get a little bit doerier. And then that's, that's how they're going to know from their new society. Then he just walks off with the girl with Sandra Polik. So maybe that's what we need to do. There it is pragmatism bringing the two ideas, the two schools of thought together. I think that's that's really the answer. And it's sad, you know, it's a good compromise. It satisfies no one. Everyone loses a little bit of what we come together. Let's move on to predictions or story of the week. Ben, are you ready with the prediction or story of the week? No, it's just going to get more gnarly like the, everything's the exponential growth. Keep checking out those numbers, those current numbers. We did 50,000 I think this week. We broke 100,000 just before the show last week. So yeah, it's going to be kind of 300,000 next by the time we do the show next week. So more more people are going to get sick or more people can die. I just hope that it's done in a controlled way where health services are able to function properly. And we're able to, you know, fuck, I don't know, come with a computer. It's not going to happen. But yeah, stuff's going to get more scary. So sorry. Robert, Alan, tell me something positive. More people are going to die, but the Disney Mulan remake is going to be great. Something. We need something to look forward to. What's going to happen this next week? I mean, I can't predict the future. I really don't know. I think Bitcoin will probably recover some. I hope. And yeah, I mean, I just want to echo Mr. Crypto Raptor in saying that, yeah, I mean, use this time if you are quarantined or self quarantined or whatever, learn some coding or jump into something of interest that's going to help you to hopefully further your life and improve things and try to contribute to Bitcoin and whatever way you can. I think Bitcoin is an interesting experiment. That's definitely not a traditional corporation. It's definitely not really anything that we've seen before. And we need more and more people piling in doing what you can. I spoke with a lady today, convinced her to buy a little bit of Bitcoin. I said, you know, I can't promise you it's not going to drop more, but this is right after the second biggest one day drop in history for Bitcoin. So it's probably a decent time to get a little bit if you don't have any. So I'm always encouraging people to diversify, hold some Bitcoin. Yeah, so yeah, jump in, do your part. We're going to make this happen. All right, Dan, Eve prediction or story of the week. Okay, so prediction is that I think we've all over exaggerated slightly and the numbers will hopefully drop off. And that's really optimistic me talking because I've gone more or more of a downer as the show's gone on. Like, oh my god, the world's I'm kind of like chicken nicking the world does seem to be ending Bitcoin has shit at the bed. It could shit the better. I think the thing that concerns me is that I know I'm going to start going back into waffle mode again is that, you know, Bitcoin, I think people realize that it relies on an infrastructure that if we go into some sort of meltdown viral thing, you know, that's the reason why it dropped. I think there's a lot of, you know, fear over if we do isolate everywhere and the security could be compromised. So there's a lot of general fear, but there's all less hotlers that won't be selling anytime anywhere in the near future. So just hodl type people in the meantime do something cool. I predict that loads of you guys are going to go and build something cool and just do something constructive. Learn about Bitcoin. I think I think I was traving traving the other day traving Tana, traving Tana, traving Tana, traving Keith, and the other day had a Bitcoin pull request. I'm pretty sure I saw something about that. So, you know, do whatever you can. Yeah, just contribute. I'm also trying, because obviously like now we're all at home and everyone's at home and they're going to be filling those spaces on the internet, which people would save people, or likely to go to a suppose, maybe, so, so, you know, I can imagine there'd be a resurgence, something like something like second life or something like minecraft service or whatever. And it'd be so cool if we can get more Bitcoin implementation into that. So we need developers out there. I think if they can integrate Bitcoin into some of those systems, which people are probably going to be spending more time. That'd be great. I would like to see a Bitcoin second life or Bitcoin minecraft. There's been a big movement for Bitcoin virtual reality. And that's great. But what if you don't own an expensive virtual reality headset like I don't happen to own one. So I don't feel very welcome in these virtual reality conferences. It's easy to say, hey, we're switching to virtual. But maybe let's try it where you can just use a monitor and a keyboard. We all seem to have one of those. You can use Google Carboard. And then there's a few apps that I have an app that, so it was normal Google Carboard. And I use my phone to play like games that are on the Oculus Rift. So it can be done on the cheap. If we can get in the chat, they just have to tell me if I can join the VR chat or whatever it is. But Robert, we kind of have five minutes here left at the end. Maybe if you want to give like a two minute version of your idea, and then we'll each give like a little 30 second response, maybe we can have you on a full show in the future to discuss this more. But Robert's got an idea about the lightning network he wants to share with these guys. So go ahead, Robert. Thanks Thomas. Cool. So I set up a little Raspberry Pi node a couple of months back using my node, which is a great open source software setup to get that going pretty easily. So anyone who's interested in lightning, I definitely recommend using that. But anyway, as I got set up and started playing around a bit, started realizing that it's not exactly easy to route payments. There are quite a few times where you'll try to use lightning and you won't actually be able to find a route to route a payment, which is pretty frustrating, especially if you're used to Bitcoin, because it always works. And so that got me thinking and researching and just, you know, I just have been, I guess, going on this for a while. So the idea is basically it's called Super Bolt. It's a proposal that I'm working on that would ultimately be a Bolt BOLT capital, capital B, capital O, capital L, capital T, which is, you know, how you introduce improvements to lightning network protocols as similar to the Bips with Bitcoin. And anyway, this proposal is still very early stage, but the basic idea is that I think it would be advantageous to have essentially like a subset network, lightning network that would have some additional requirements for participants to be part of this network, the Super Bolt network. Basically, these requirements would be minimum liquidity per channel, minimum uptime, which would be verified, self-attested by each node using open time stamps and and, um, hashing that into the Bitcoin blockchain. And then also some software to automate rebalancing using circular payments, which is a way to use, uh, to, to, to rebalance your channels without using on-chain transactions, which is pretty cool. And there's a few other pieces to the proposal. You can check it out. It's on GitHub, um, forward slash Robert William Allen, forward slash Super Bolt. So it's, uh, you know, like I said, early stage, but I've gotten some feedback so far from a few people. And, you know, the, the, the, the, the impetus, the reason I think this would be worth considering is that, um, if we have liquidity and uptime in a few of these other, other things in place, we would effectively have a network that we could then guarantee, um, say a couple hundred dollars, perhaps worth of liquidity and either direction, um, in and out of this, uh, subset of lightning network, which could then be used, um, to perhaps onboard merchants. Um, I'd love to see something kind of like bid instant, which, uh, you know, was shut down, um, but where you could go into seven, eleven or a convenience store and give them 50 bucks and walk out with some lightning, uh, Bitcoin in a wallet. And so, um, but to get there, I think we have to have a user experience that is better and where payments are basically guaranteed because we have, uh, a network that's more professionally managed. So that's the basic proposal. All right, let's go to Dan Eve, quick response. Uh, what do you think of, uh, Robert's Bolt idea? I think it's cool because anything that that improves loot usability on the lightning network at the moment. Um, I mean, there's obviously there's a, there's a lot of good apps out there like, you know, I do like the zap wallet. There's obviously, you know, shout out to, to noddle, um, for making like, like, uh, lightning hardware so that you can run your zap wallet, you samurai, and run your full node. Um, but the, the biggest barrier, I think it's, especially coming from like a business analyst background, and certainly I used to work on a lot, uh, work a lot on usability and user experience. And, and there are a lot of really good wallets and stuff out there, but at the same time, it's still very scary for people. And it's finding that that kind of sweet spot between giving people enough information so that they can make informed decisions and removing the options from people's, um, you know, field of vision and control that would ultimately make them lose their Bitcoin, you know, and there's, there's loads of things that you can think of from anything from like, you know, address treks and all sorts. Um, but you can go down to the end to the degree depending on, I think that's the good thing about Bitcoin is depending on what people's skill level is. You can choose a hard call wallet where you can fiddle with things, you can choose a, um, a level where, um, you know, it's just, literally click and send. Um, but I think certainly for lightning network, it's, um, it's, I think any advancements at the moment, um, yeah, I really welcome. So I'll check it. I'll check it out. Thanks for a while. Awesome. Okay. And from Wales, you work on a lot of lightning projects. Uh, what do you think of the idea? Yeah, I mean, as, um, like, I, I, you know, I mean, it makes sense that there would be a node federation, like a pool of nodes, which you could access for, like a high fee. And then you would be able to like, root, you know, highly quality purchases or whatever through, but I suppose ultimately, like the point is that we don't, we shouldn't need it in the lighting network, um, in order so you wouldn't have that experience of spinning up a node and then struggling to like root payments. So as a sort of like, temporary measure, um, as a way of, uh, providing like higher liquidity for some, for some routing, then yeah, then it's, it's, it's, it's, it sounds, it sounds cool. It sounds like one of those ideas, which you can tell is a good idea, because it's kind of an obvious idea, like, oh, yeah, why is it all in our store, this thing? Um, so it is, it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a very, I like it. It's a very clean and, and sounds like an obviously good idea. Um, I do hope that eventually, though, we have like payments splitting and things and, uh, when a lot of this stuff is more automated and, um, we're, we're able to get to a point where we wouldn't need such a, um, I don't know, like an extra, um, what a pool of federation of nodes. I mean, you could have multiple pools and federation of nodes, I suppose, um, which are working together in all, all share, like a rule, a rule set using open time stuff. It's a cool idea, it's got that, um, that, and it's a pioneering idea. And I'm sure other ideas will kind of spin off it for other types of, uh, node pools, um, which could perform other functions as well. So, um, yeah, I mean, experimentation is always welcoming them. I look forward to, uh, for to eat the ball. Sounds cool. Oh, thank you. And yeah, just, uh, you know, I guess caveat is like, this is again, early stages is definitely not like a bolt that's ready to be submitted. It's more like, you know, this is the high level overview of what I'm trying to achieve. And here's some, some of the key pieces and what I'm envisioning. But I mean, this is really early, and I also need help because, um, I've done some programming, but I'm at the sort of like application developer level. I'm definitely not, um, you know, experienced go-lang coder, for example, and, uh, it would probably need to be implemented in go, um, because that would, I imagine that'd be the easiest way to try to do this, at least the first implementation. Um, so I've started to learn go, you know, I'm, I'm gonna try to take a whack at it, but, um, it's gonna be a big challenge. So bottom line is, if you guys know anyone you can connect with, who's more of a protocol type engineer, I would be indebted. Um, but yeah, thank you. These, these comments are really encouraging. And, you know, I keep getting generally speaking, mostly positive, um, input. I've heard from a few of the, the lightning network, um, kind of the, some of the bigger devs, and they also seem to be generally speaking in favor. Um, so, yeah, so I'm gonna keep working on it. So let me know what you think, and I love, you know, to hear feedback once you read it. Well, I, I agree with Ben, this is something that might not be needed later on in the lightning network, but something that's needed early, kind of like scaffolding. Uh, we put this for a little while, we use this for a little while, and then later on, the network just functions normally, and you're like, why would we need that? Well, we needed it in the beginning, because like, uh, Robert was saying, if you're having trouble routing your lightning payments, if you want to have a smooth user of experience, and you could route them into this temporary zone of good lightning, and then later on, the whole network's good lightning. I think it has to do a lot of what we were talking about today with, uh, not being idealistic in either way, decentralization, centralization, but being pragmatic in the middle, where, for a little while, we centralize later on, we decentralize, our values are still good, our goals are still the same, but we're willing to do what's necessary, what's pragmatic to get to our goal. So that's what I do think is rather like just the concept of wrapping nodes up together. Uh, it could be really interesting. Um, so I've always want, I'm for ages, I've been trying to think of how you would make a decentralized custodian. So you would have, you know, a custodian solution, like an open node, except open node can actually hold the funds, the funds are held by a federation of nodes. And then if, you know, the rules are such that a percentage of those nodes won't leave with funds, so there'll always be enough funds to cover the funds which the, the, the, the person who's using the custodian thing, uh, puts in, and then those nodes for running that service could receive some sort of interest. Is it? No, that not one person is going to, one company is going to take one away with you money. So I mean, that's a cool idea. Yeah, it's really nice to get that. That actually could potentially dovetail pretty well with, with the super bold idea as a, you know, maybe an add-on or an additional feature. So that's really a cool idea. I like that. Do it. I'm making, I won't want, I wanted to exist. I'll try to get your input on that, uh, down that piece, uh, in particular, I think that would probably be more down the road, because I think it would be pretty complex to build it. I think to do that in a way that it's safe, but I, I think that's a really cool idea. So Robert, one more time, where can people check this out on GitHub? And they can also contact you on Twitter. I just let them know. Oh, sure. Yeah. So, uh, Satoshi sound, I think I'll actually just tweet it out today. So that'll be the easiest way. So it's at Satoshi sound, like, uh, you know, the sound of music, um, is my Twitter handle. And it's GitHub, Ford slash Robert William Allen, Ford slash super bold. But I will, uh, I'll, I'll tweet it out here after we hang up. So, all right. And we're going to head towards the end of the show. Uh, I just wanted to show the fundraiser one more time. As always, you can donate to the world, crypto network. We're trying to raise a million dollars in Bitcoin. It's been pretty fun to actually just watch the upper left hand corner of this fundraiser. Originally, it was around 115 Bitcoin. I think at the beginning of the show, it was 195 Bitcoin now. It's a smooth, 177 and a lot of sevens Bitcoin. So, uh, 10, 20 bucks, anything helps. Uh, thanks for your support. Also, thanks for giving us a thumbs up and a share that really helps new people find the show. And we'll be back again, trying to do some more call-in shows, keeping up with the price of Bitcoin. Fortunately, the Dow Jones industrial average will be closed this weekend. So we need to take some time off there. But as you guys know, the Bitcoin market never closes. And, uh, neither do we at the world crypto network. So be sure to check us out, subscribe down below, hit the bell for notifications, got new interviews coming in from the lightning conference and HTTP almost every day here. And, uh, until next time, bye-bye.