The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest sitoshis, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Jimmy Song, Bitcoin developer. Hello everybody, good to be here. Tony Vays from Liberty Life Trail. Hey guys, Glad to be back in New York. Jeffrey Jones from the Bitcoin News Show. Hey guys, welcome. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network reminding you to like and share moving on to issue one. Segwit 2x no fork. As reported here on the world crypto network, Segwit 2x is not happening. Let's see, I need a second screen. The price of Bitcoin is soaring. Hold that. The price of Bitcoin is diving below 7,000. Well, B cash is up 20% with Bitcoin classic also closing the doors. Have the big blockers simply unified their forces behind B cash? Is B cash a legitimate threat to Bitcoin? Jimmy Song? Well, I mean, I, to be honest with you, I'm kind of disappointed that the hard fork didn't happen. I was looking forward to having, you know, sort of this, this market test of what people found more valuable. It looks like a lot of people that were looking to go off to the 2x side of the hard fork are now moving in big time into Bitcoin cash. I did hear some rumors that Roger Vair maybe moving in large positions into Bitcoin cash as a result of this non-hard fork. So that may be what's causing the price to go up. I'll let Tony tell you about the technicals. But as far as Bitcoin cash being a threat to Bitcoin, I don't think it will be a threat to the store of value property because naturally, if you do value something as a store of value, the biggest concern is security. And as far as I'm concerned, you know, as a Bitcoin holder, of course, you know, security is very closely related to the developers that are protecting it. And the developer ecosystem around Bitcoin is a lot stronger, at least in my opinion, with that of Bitcoin cash. And but if you are using it as a medium of exchange, if you are buying coffee on the blockchain or whatever it is that you are buying, then it may be more useful. And certainly for a lot of these companies that do utilize a large portion of the Bitcoin block space that's available, it may make sense for them to move in that direction. And if it does, we'll see what happens. I think the argument has been all along for a lot of these people that if you want Bitcoin to grow, you need to have, you know, faster velocity of money through a bigger block size, which is sort of a tainsy in way of thinking. I happen to be more on the Austrian side of that camp. So I am a little bit skeptical, but this is one of the reasons why I was disappointed in the lack of a hard work. We never really got to find out. We didn't get to see sort of two sides battling and seeing if the Keynesian worldview or the Austrian worldview, which one was correct. And unfortunately, we now have to kind of wait for another event, this sort of an event, perhaps in the next year or two or something like that for us to really find out. As far as the Bitcoin cash fund, great if you have some Bitcoin cash. If not, then, you know, I mean, as long as you're using Bitcoin as a store of value, why are you worrying about short-term movements? I think we are finding out now, and at least be cash has replay protection. At least there's two separate coins, and it's not just this deception, checking people into thinking it's Bitcoin. Is it better to have a fair fight of ideas, Jimmy? Yeah, I would say so. I mean, in a sense, I think, said what two X would have been fairer in that people and businesses would have had to choose very actively. I mean, they couldn't be passive about it. Right now, if you're passive, then you just sort of stay with Bitcoin. You have to be active. Coinbase could change Bitcoin to be cash tomorrow because it has the long-range chain. Or it has the longest name. Or in that we're at arbitrary standard. They could make it Bitcoin. Well, I mean, my point is that if you're forced to choose, you will choose, I guess, a little more deliberately than if by not choosing, you make a choice anyway, which the current thing is. But, you know, that's it. You know, let's see what happens. I'm always for the market sort of determining the value of things, and we may see, you know, some surprises in store. Well, I mean, long-term, I am bullish Bitcoin. I believe store values the main use case, but I could be wrong, and I'm open to being wrong. And if the market tells me otherwise, then I'll reevaluate my economic worldview and go from there. Yeah, but the market could tell me that bacon is eggs, but I'd still know that eggs is not bacon. I don't know. I'm going to say, you know, I'm going to say, a big cash is a threat to Bitcoin. It just became like a bigger bug that will eventually hit a bigger windshield or creating a bigger splash. Right. So it's like I said on the show the other day, I was also just like Jimmy disappointed that the hard fork, the new hard, I don't even know what I still don't know what to call that to X thing. I was also disappointed that the 2X did not happen. I personally wasn't fully ready for it. I still needed to figure out how to properly protect my Bitcoin, how to properly split my Bitcoin, how to properly collect on the value of selling the shit side of the split. So I was not ready for that. I mean, I was coming home the day after they announced that we're going to do it and I was going to look to our time. I thought I still had like three or four days, you know, to fully get ready and get, you know, all of our followers ready for this, but it didn't happen. So just like the biggest casualty of the 2X fork would have been B trash, the greatest beneficiary of the cancellation of the 2X fork is also B trash, right? Because now all of the people that want bigger blocks have a place they can go to and they can all unite and they can pump this shit coin to whatever reason. But the first question I ask these people when they try to tell me that this is the greatest token the world has ever seen, I ask them who is developing your protocol and how do you know what changes are being made and what are those changes are competent. So there's absolutely no way that this token will ever be used as a store of value is just another speculative mechanism. I don't have time for it anymore. I am not, I mean, me looking at B cash is as far as like its price is about the same as me looking at BitConnect for its price. It's totally irrelevant because I know where the future of that token is going to be. Jeffrey Jones, the future of B cash. The future. Oh man, what a crazy week guys, look, I'm extremely proud to be a part of the WCN group here that really in my opinion helped facilitate killing this 2X fork. This really was an attack and I'm really glad to see it go away. Like the others have said, sort or still wish it would have executed so we could have even further immunized against this craziness stuff. But hey, you know, there is always a next time because remember, these people keep coming. We've had XT classic BU and then BU again and now 2X. They're going to try again. It's going to be expected so people stay vigilant and stay informed. Keep watching content and podcasts like the Royal crypto network and you'll definitely be able to be on top of that. Now, it's pretty damn interesting timing of the BitCash pump, isn't it? The BitCash pump? I mean, come on. This was definitely planned by the few people, the few whales that are actually R&B cash if you look at it. I mean, this is speculation, but come on. Like Ton said, they have everything to benefit from the 2X dying. So they took advantage and they are pumping and remember, most of this volume is all coming from a single exchange in South Korea. For all we know, this could be Roger and Gehan just trading back and forth. Like, we don't know. I mean, we have 80% mining this unknown. It's just completely ridiculous. It's an altcoin and we love experimentation. Go ahead, but to think it's anything close to secure, decentralized or centrosypresistant as Bitcoin, it's definitely folly. And if you look into the actual fundamentals, you'll see why. Now, it's also interesting to point out that lots of the B-Cash supply is actually locked up right now. Not everybody's sold. There's a ton of wallets out there, millions and millions of dollars who just didn't sell because they're holding. So that automatically pushes the price up a little bit. It makes it even easier to manipulate. And so when Coinbase and others start dumping, you're going to see that reflected pretty hard in the price. And it's crazy because we're speaking of deception here. We might as well put out a PSA about Bitcoin.com because Roger is completely defrauding his customers over there, trying to tell people that Bitcoin.com is for the actual, they're trying to say that it's for Bitcoin cash instead of the actual classic segment, Bitcoin. And this is just insanity. This is just insanity. Bitcoin.org is the main site for Bitcoin. It's not official, right? Because nothing's official. Bitcoin.org is the main site. Bitcoin.com is a scam. So tell your friends, telegrams, slack it out. And one last point, the options markets, and I tweeted this out, the options markets, the futures markets, the ETFs, all this insane huge Wall Street money that's coming in, that's going to be built on Bitcoin. That's going to be built on the real Bitcoin, the most secure, centricip resistant chain on the planet, the actual only chain that is at scale, running at scale. And so that is the chain that they're going to build off of. You're not going to see a Bitcoin cash ETF anytime soon. All right. And I want to disagree with the entire panel. I'm glad that we didn't have a nuclear war. I know we went very close to the edge of it, but I'm glad that we're not sitting around a bunch of craters and a bunch of mutants and that the railway system still work. It's a good thing. And what we have to do is to prepare for next time. Centralized mining is the problem that's still the problem today. It was the centralized miners that tried to take over and there's still the problem tomorrow. But let's move on to the exit question, the price of Bitcoin this time next week, higher or lower, Jimmy saw. I'm going to say lower. The first time on the history of this show that I have said lower to this question, this by being asked every week, I've been actually studying some of Tom Bay's stuff on his website. I think I know the TD indicator a little better now. I know certain patterns to look for. It does look like we have pop for the year. I am going to agree with Tom. It's going to be lower. We've lost Jimmy. Tom Bay's. I hate it when newbs agree with me. But it makes me want to say the opposite. But I'm going to say lower as well. I mean, I've been calling for a top in the middle of this month for a long time now. And I'm going to stick with it a little bit longer until I see signs of a reversal. Jeffrey Jones. I do have just one quick final comment before I comment on the price. There's some people that going out there like Eric Voorhees and thinking like that and other people like that. They're trying to push this narrative that Core has won. Like, okay, Core, you won. And of course, that's not the case, people. Remember, Core is the community. We are the community, the community won. Anybody that said no to X in a slack or anybody that said no to X on Twitter or on telegram, those are the people who won. The community that pushed back on this takeover are the people that won. Or almost had nothing to do with this. People like the World Crypto Network. That is who won. Not not Core. So I just want to make sure that framing is correct, people. Understand that Core is not an entity that can win or lose anything. It's an individual ad hoc group of people. So I just wanted to say that and make sure that that is well understood. The community won here. And that's what's important. So on the price, man, it's tone in his freaking accuracy. I mean, well, who the hell at this point is going to go against tone? I sure as hell, I'm not going to do it. So no, we have been expecting this price correction. I've been saying it for weeks. Tone's been saying it for weeks. We've definitely been expecting this price correction. Ever since we win over $7,500, I got up to $7,800 on that pump. I mean, come on. We've got up over $1,000, or sorry, almost $1,000. I mean, holy crap, we were $700 last year. And so now we're over $7,000. Yeah, we're expecting a correction. I'm still though expecting by the end of the year, five to six K. And I'm definitely still expecting five digits in Bitcoin early next year. All right. Well, I hate to join the panel and go with lower, but it does seem like it has topped. But I do agree with Jeff, the real winner here is the community. Everyone that changed their hashtag on Twitter, no 2x. And that as a member and representative of that community, we didn't expect to win. We didn't expect when we started. We didn't expect to win when it finished. And it still feels like the Berlin Wall, like all of a sudden, we won. And that still doesn't mean that we can stop. We have to remain vigilant. It's just like net neutrality. We thought we won on net neutrality. We went to a party. I was there. It's a few years later now, and we're fighting for net neutrality again, and kind of losing. So you never know what's going to happen on this Bitcoin freedom. It's just like all the other things you have to keep fighting. Moving on to issue two, regulation. United States Treasury Secretary Steve Minuchin says that they're looking very carefully at Bitcoin and repeated the usual attacks about Bitcoin being only used for criminal activities and drug dealers and such. Speaking of ICOs, regulators have also taken an interest in their handiwork. Tone Vays, will these regulatory intrusions be successful? Should they be undertaken? No, I think these regulatory stuff in Bitcoin is totally irrelevant. And I'm looking at my Twitter feed right now and someone posted with the title, Breaking China to give preference to Bitcoin cash on regulated exchanges. And there is a link to some kind of video. Now, I don't know what that means. I haven't seen the video. Just making up. Faking up. Faking up. Faking up. Well, no, but the link is coming from someone that is not into Bitcoin cash. Like it's coming from a Bitcoin guy. So granted, this could be fake news. This could be them pumping their own scale. I have no idea. I'm just reading it out. So here's the thing. If China, let's entertain the idea that this statement is true. Now, if China is giving preferential regulatory treatment to be cash, I would stay away from that. That becomes even worse for be cash. But you want your currency to be decentralized and a problem for the government. If your current, if if China chooses to be in bed with be cash, what does that mean? It's already centralized with mining. It's already centralized with development. But what does it mean when the government now wants to work with you? But you're talking more like the libertarian values of currency. Doesn't it mean that the value of the currency will go up and that the Chinese government would buy a bunch of it? And the people who are listening would make a lot of money on be cash. What if that's all they care about? What if that's all? No, of course. If that's all you care about, right? But eventually, what are you going to move that money into? This is why I hold the US dollars in the S&P 500. The things that all of you people are telling me is a scam and how they're going to crash and how I need to be in hard currencies like gold, which have made no money in the last, you know, God knows how many years. So at the end of the day, if B cash or any other centralized ICO or token goes in bed with government and regulators, that's not where you want to be for your decentralization needs. And at the end of the day, it's going to come back to Bitcoin. Bitcoin might dip. Bitcoin might fall to 5,000. It might fall lower than that. And B cash might be the biggest beneficiary of that. God knows it's not going to be Ethereum because there are about to, you know, another stupid developer is about to lose more Ethereum. But, but anyway, someone is going to be the short term beneficiary of any Bitcoin downturn. And when it comes to regulation, I was really, I was the troll at these conferences against the regulators trying to regulate Bitcoin because I know Bitcoin is unregulatable. The situation is now completely flipped where I'm in this room and everyone is trying to do these ICOs or these centralized coins like Zcash. And I'm like, well, where the hell are the regulators? Like get them to Halati here. Like bust a couple of these people like Tisham Alesson, because people buying into this, it's only going to get worse. That's the big difference. Do you think that the regulators have become confused? Because Bitcoin is not regulatable. They think that the ICOs are not regulatable, even though they have a centralized location and a list of people who work for them. And you can just go to their office and shut them down, right? No, not at all. I think if the regulators were confused like two, three, four years ago about, you know, trying to regulate Bitcoin, that could have confused them. But once these like centralized altcoins and ICOs came about, and now they're like, oh, well, we can definitely take care of this mess. But the problem is you can't set a bad precedent. Like you want to go after a big fish, but not too big. And you want to go after it in a way where you can guarantee a conviction. Like this is why like a theory might be too big of a fish. So someone is going to get caught. And but they're going to get caught. I mean, it's hard to put together these cases because if the government takes one of these ICOs, CEOs to court and they lose, then it sets a very bad precedent not only for the government lawyers and stuff, who I'm not a fan of, but it sets a bad precedent about going after the rest. So trust me, a lot of these guys are going to get busted and we'll see how it all ends. And the other question you got to ask is, will the government bust a couple of these ICOs before they blow up spectacularly? And the whole bubble pops before the regulators get there because of those bubbles. That's what I think is important about their Dow announcement. They threaten the Dow. They said that it's a security, but then they didn't prosecute. I think you're right, Tony. I think they're going to wait until one of them blows up like a bomb everywhere and there are victims everywhere and then they're going to swoop in. Right, because I think this time they got profiles. They got serious profiles. I'm pretty much all of them. And the next time one of them blows up, they'll be immediately ready to deal with the aftermath. Not start putting their paperwork together after the blow up. Let's go to Jeffrey Jones, your thought on regulation of Bitcoin and ICOs. It's freaking crazy. Look, despite Bitcoin being difficult to regulate, we have done a relatively decent job in order to get things like Coinbase and the United States in order to get things like crack in these exchanges. And other services. So far, the regulation has been fairly decent, obviously in the IRS and taxation sector. It could be far, far improved in the United States. But around the world, for the past few years, we have seen Bitcoin be relatively regulated because all they do, what most people do, is just treat it as a regular fiat currency. And so then you put in all the standard regulation in place. If you want to hold money, okay, better get a money, transmitter license. It's all pretty standard stuff. And even Finsen, you know, in the United States, back in 2013, we're like, look guys, we got, we got all the tools we need to regulate Bitcoin. We have everything we need. And so I just really don't see too much problem regulating Bitcoin as far as making it, at least making it an easy enough to be able to facilitate new people to create Bitcoin companies, right? That's the idea to not put too harsh of regulation on so that companies don't even want to start. Now, when you're talking about ICOs, now that's a whole different story, right? So ICOs, I mean, get the hell out of the United States while you can, right? You're going to get owned by the SEC. I mean, this is why almost all the new ICOs, they don't allow US customers. I mean, hell, BitFinex doesn't even allow US customers anymore. You know, so it's just, it's really going to be crazy for ICOs over the next couple of years. Remember, Bitcoin is many years old now. ICOs are brand new. So they have a whole lot of stuff to figure out. And as everybody knows, the regulators are always way behind the technology. I mean, come on, it took them like over a year just to figure out what the hell happened with the Dow. But this is to be expected. I definitely, not with all that said, I definitely do expect some type of ICO model to take off, you know, in the future to be a properly regulated model so that companies can actually use it without getting sued. So customers can actually use it without getting screwed over, have some type of protection in that regard. But that's the years in the future. That's a while from now. Until then, we will continue to see these ICOs, you know, go higher and higher and higher. And the next year, I am fully expecting it to be the first year of the, of the billion dollar ICO, the first billion dollar ICO next year. So we just hope that by then we can really get more, really more regulation together, just get best practices together. There are people, even like Bruce Fenton, that are working on frameworks to be able to figure out how much an actual ICO is worth and things like that. So this is being very much looked at across the world and we'll have to wait and see. But right now, Bitcoin is giving regulators a whole lot less of a hard time than ICOs. I try to jump back in here real quick or something that you said, vortex, about the technology. Look, the regulation is there. It's always been there, right? If you use Bitcoin like a currency, all regulations on cash apply. If you're using ICO to sell securities, all security regulation applies. If you're using ICOs to fund your company, all regulation on funding a company like soliciting unqualified investors, all that regulation applies. The only thing that's changed is technology and while regulators are a little bit confused on the technology and it's making them a little bit, and it makes it a little bit difficult for these regulators to catch you because of the latest technology, they will eventually catch up in the technology. So you might be able to get away with using Bitcoin because Bitcoin is actually decentralized and they can't stop you from hitting that button and sending that Bitcoin payment. But as far as the regulation, it's all there. It's always been there. You choose to use that technology to get around it and you're doing that at your own risk and I do it very, very carefully and only with Bitcoin. All right, we just like to thank our 1235 live viewers. Thank everyone for giving us a thumbs up and a share. And thanks for the tips and donations in the chat. Jimmy Song, your thoughts on regulation, Bitcoin and ICOs. Yeah, I mean, I think the panel's kind of got most of what I was gonna say. They're waiting for somebody to really blatantly screw up. I think there may already be a few cases like that and they're probably preparing cases against them. If you're familiar with how the attorney general works in most places in the United States, the way they do it is they have to take it to a grand jury. And if you know anyone that's ever been on a grand jury, they get the easy cases first. And these are like blatant burglaries or robberies or drug things or whatever. Those are pretty easy and they go, yeah, go ahead. And then at the very end, after you've learned all about this, that's when they bring the financial stuff because the financial stuff, that's the really, really hard stuff. And this is where grand juries are expected to like look at evidence for months and months. And with these ICOs, I think it kind of has that kind of same timeline, just bureaucracy on this stuff just moves slow. The SEC can bring charges against them, but you gotta convince a grand jury to bring a case with a district attorney or something like that. So it's not a very quick process. Let's just say that. And the industry has been moving very quickly on this stuff. I do feel like we, it feels like we've hit peak ICO already. You know, a lot of, we're not hearing nearly as much about them anymore. It feels like the beginning of hard forks. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But as far as regulations concerned, we can definitely expect the government to find, you know, one blatant case. And then depending on how successful they are, how the public reacts to those, they'll bring more cases based on, you know, whether or not it helps certain people get elected or whatever. I mean, this is just how government works. So if you bring a case and you're successful and you get fame and all that stuff, you can run for higher office. I mean, it's not unlike any other job. You do things so you can move up. So I imagine that's the same for a lot of regulators. And they, many of them are looking at Bitcoin pretty closely because that's how they want to make their name is, you know, Bitcoin, ICOs or whatever and say, hey, I stamped out fraud or this existential threat to the US or something. And, you know, I mean, yeah, of course, they're going to do that. This is bureaucracy. This is red tape. This is how rent seekers rent or, you know, get rent or whatever. So, yeah, government entities acting like government entities is no surprise to me. Everyone knows the path to higher office is reality shows, reality shows. What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, Jimmy said, and you're right, they go for the easy, the low hanging food first. I mean, Eric Warhees is a very interesting example because he got popped by the SEC for selling Satoshi dice. And he got fined for that. Now, Satoshi dice is what was a legitimate company. And I mean, spam the Bitcoin network. So it was a, you know, kind of crappy. But, but at least it was legit, but he got popped for not filling out the proper paperwork of selling a company. It was easy for them to bust them on that for, you know, a little smack on the wrist. Now, shapeshift right now is either laundering money or trading in unlicensed securities, right? Now, that is a, that is a way, grosser violation for the SEC that what he did the first time, but it's a much more complicated situation, which is why they haven't gone after him yet. Or maybe they're looking for, I know, a bigger fish or a smaller fish or whatever. But that's the, that's the prime example of he got popped for the low hanging fruit. And now he's in the middle of a much bigger one that may or may not get popped by the SEC in a way more significantly. It's a crazy enough story that the same person runs both of those companies. Let's move on to the exit question. ICO regulation will happen in six months, one year, two years or never tone vase. I'm probably going to regret saying it, but I'm going to say six months. Jeffrey Jones. Well, if you're talking specifically in the United States, it's probably going to come sooner than later. If you're talking about the rest of the world, who knows, the United States seems to regulate much harder when it comes to ICOs. I was thinking US in that question. Yeah, I think we're going to US, Jimmy Song. I'm going to say two years, especially at a federal level. You could do it at some state might be doing it in six months or something like that. But federal level, they don't act unless there's votes to be had or something. There's no popular outrage over ICOs like scamming people yet. And I expect that to happen year and a half from now and then some senator will realize, oh, okay, I can get some votes with this and go from there. Two years or more, the nightmare is just beginning. Moving on to issue three, Bitcoin gold and the usual forks. Another week, another fork. This time, it's B gold, which changes the proof of work algorithm on Bitcoin and is backed by lightning ASIC, a seller of mining hardware based in Hong Kong and unknown developers. B gold will be air dropped on current Bitcoin holders, much like B cash, Jeffrey Jones will be gold, be a success. What will be used for? You know, it's interesting. There's going to be a bunch of these forks. We have Bitcoin gold, Bitcoin silver, Bitcoin, I forget the other one. There's a bunch of them and there's actually one or two that have already forked, but nobody knows about them. So they're worth about a dollar or three or four dollars. So it's, look, we've been predicting that 2018 is definitely going to be the year of the fork. It's going to take off similar to ICOs and things like that. So there's going to be a lot more forks with B gold. What will it be used for? The same thing every other altcoin is used for speculation. There's not going to be, you know, there obviously, there's a little bit of interesting, it's a little bit of an interesting project because of the mining. They want to take on altcoin mining and things like that, but it's an altcoin. So you know, have fun with it. I'm really looking forward to see if there's going to be some actual experimentation with some of these forks, you know, or if they're just all going to be just pretty much an altcoin like B gold. I'm really looking forward next year to side chains, people experimenting more with side chains and drive chains instead of just a fork, but we'll see what happens with that. But really, it's anybody's guess. There's all sorts of people that are actually all about B gold. I mean, even Adam Meister seems to really like B gold. And things like that, it's to me, it's just another altcoin. There's not going to be very interesting innovation on there because again, it's just one or two guys, like pretty much every altcoin is. So, you know, more power to them if they want a fork. We're going to expect a whole lot more forks next year, which is another reason why I really hope that the ecosystem is prepared and immunized with this whole 2x fiasco. I hope that we can learn from that because these forks are coming. A Bitcoin for every precious metal and maybe colors too. Bitcoin blue, Bitcoin orange, Jimmy Song. Can I get you a Bitcoin gold? Well, so the developers are known. I had one of them on my show like a couple of weeks ago, Martin. He also slapped me to let me know that they are actually going to launch on November 12th, 7 UTC. So, I think that's like midnight for me tomorrow night or something like that. So, something like, well, 30, 34 hours from now, something like that. So, it is happening. It looks like they have a wallet. They have replay protection. Their addresses are different. You know, they're doing everything that the exchanges asked of them in order to do this hard fork. So, as far as that goes, it's good. Their main innovation is that they are pre-mining in the middle of a chain instead of at the beginning like everybody else did. And this is a way to monetize hard forks in a way. And that's going to be an innovation. I promise you, that's not going to be the last one. That does that. What do I think of it? I mean, they're using AquaHash. They're trying something new. It's kind of like what Alcoin said four years ago. I don't know why it's that different. The only difference now is that exchanges not have to support it because it's a hard fork. So, you know the value, isn't it? It's this totally brand new project that's already worth millions of dollars. It's already on all the boards. Like when they made Feathercoin, it was worth like $25. Like no one cared. Like, isn't it this millions of dollars that's being poured in? It's unstoppable now? Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, at least when Alcoins came on, it was, you know, people were surprised. Why did these Alcoins have value? At least initially it was just kind of like, why do they have value at all? Because, you know, Bitcoin should capture all that value, either that or people were thinking zero sum. Like if it captures any value at all, it would come from Bitcoin. Turns out not to be the case. I think at least economically, it seems like developer time is being monetized. It just turns out that when you fork, when you hard fork Bitcoin, you're also hard forking some of the Bitcoin developer time. And you're just sort of taking some of that value with you as well. So in a way, you know, you gotta give them points for cleverness. Economically, they're creating value kind of out of the air, but they're also kind of unlocking some of it by sort of giving more choices to the market. And that said, you know, the goals of Bitcoin, gold in particular seem to be very, or at least what they're saying seems to be very pure. It's very much in line with what you've been saying, Thomas. It's they want to decentralize mining, but that said, you think about mining manufacturers. There's three, there's BitNane, there's BitFury, there's Canaan. There are other projects in the world, but they're pretty much the only people that you can get a miner from. If you think about video cards, there's AMD, there's NewVideo. It's even less. And I guess you could count Intel, but you can't really use their GPUs for anything. So in a way, it's actually more centralized to go to a GPU from a manufacturer, it says. Maybe Intel and Nvidia probably wouldn't buy their own cards directly in mine with them. We do think they probably, yeah, they probably won't until, you know, the price is significantly higher, and then you never know. I mean, AMD's been losing money every quarter for like six years or something. It's entirely possible that if they had the opportunity, they would move into cryptocurrency to doing that. Unfortunately, it looks like they have kind of incompetent leadership, which is what's leading them to lose money quarter after quarter and strategies that continue to change. But I mean, whatever the case is, I mean, I am for the markets, sort of determining things, and it may take the market a while to determine whether new hard forks are actually worth anything. It took a long time before all coins started to die off. And like people would launch a new all coin at a certain point, nobody would pay attention. That it feels like won't necessarily happen to Bitcoin because of this exchange fiduciary duty problem. But, you know, this is why we need decentralized exchanges, right, atomic swaps with lightning and where you possess your own keys. I'm especially optimistic about Ubiqui's new HSM that is the size of a thumb drive, cost $600, but it can sign things based on an API, it has Bitcoin's set P256K1 curve. So it does have the potential to be able to sign your transactions. It's right now, we don't know if it's 5th, 140-2 level 3 certified, which would make it like a really strong, which would make a really strong case for a consumer level HSM device. But I mean, we're going that direction. And that, I would love for Bitcoin to go in that direction because then we don't have all these custody and centralization problems with exchanges. So in a way, these hard forks are going to sort of put that question to the exchanges. You want to keep doing all this work to support all these new hard forks that are coming in. Or are you going to decentralize and be an order book and sort of still take commission, but basically let people take possession of their own stuff. This is especially interesting in light of like Wall Street and everybody else. They're having huge problems figuring out custody and because they can't take custody of this stuff. And you ask yourself, why can't they take custody? Well, it turns out that the government mandates it. They're so used to a third party sort of like taking custody of something and like centralizing all of these problems that they don't, that it's like sort of written into law, which is really ironic, given like it's Bitcoin, you're not meant to have like a bank take control of it. But that's kind of what these hedge funds, but like large investment banks, they want to invest in Bitcoin, but they can't figure out custody. It's hilarious because it's completely against the spirit of what Bitcoin is all about. But that said, you know, like technologies are coming, decentralization is coming. There's going to be some decentralization pressure on exchanges because of these hard forks. And I see that as a good thing. All right, let's go to tone Vays. Can I get you some B gold? I'm probably going to have some like, I have no idea what the price is. Anyone know what the current rate is? 0.03. It's totally not worth it. And it's about to start getting sold, which kind of unfortunate. I don't see Bitcoin gold as problematic. Like I have no problem with it. I mean, it's significantly better than like 99% of all the other alternatives on the market between altcoins, ICOs, everything. And it's not in direct competition with Bitcoin like a B cash is. And even though Bitcoin gold has the word Bitcoin in it, they have made it clear that they're not Bitcoin. They're not trying to go after the Bitcoin brand. You see, the problem with going after the Bitcoin brand is that there isn't anyone on the other side that can legally fight you. Like there's no trademarks, there's no branding rights. So this is why Bitcoin.com can pretend B cash is Bitcoin and sell it to people, right? And without a penalty yet, let's see what happens when B cash implodes. But with Bitcoin gold, even though it has the word Bitcoin in it, it doesn't bother me at all. And if there is an altcoin, they're trying to go after with that, I mean, with their coin, it's the Z cash, right? Because they have the same mining algorithm. And I've seen a couple of presentations about Bitcoin gold. Or I guess it was part of a presentation when I was in Ukraine. And maybe they do have a new, stronger, encryption algorithm than Bitcoin does with their mining structure. But unlike Z cash, B gold is a little bit, I mean, yeah, they also have a, you know, they also printed themselves on B gold, which is bad. But it's not as bad as Z cash. I mean, the way Z cash goes around and sponsoring events and the way they talk about themselves. I mean, they're all shit coins. It's just that B gold doesn't bother me. And if B gold, if I can sell my B gold for more than 5% of the value of a Bitcoin, I'll do it. If not, I'm probably not going to bother. Also on the Z cash issue, we were going to talk about it, but I pulled it at the last minute. What do you think about Z cash getting their own ETF run by Barry Silver, who also invested in the creation of Z cash? I think that's a huge conflict of interest. And again, I don't want to go cry into the regulators. But if the regulators pop him for this, I'm going to just say I told you so. All right, let's move on to the exit question. Jeffrey Jones, what would you rather have? One bit cash, one B gold, or one B2X, if it had come out? Oh, man, it's such a, you know, wow. All coins are Bitcoin. That's a tough one. All coins are Bitcoin. I think I'm going to have to go with Bitcoin. Jimmy Song, same question. Is this serious? I think if you maybe choose between the hard forks, maybe that would be more interesting. And especially given that 2X looks like it still may happen. So I don't know. But I mean, I've always said, best store of value ever. I own it over gold or whatever. So there you go. Tones. I mean, the question was way open ended. I mean, I take the one that's most expensive and immediately sell it for Bitcoin. I mean, come on, guys, seriously, you take the B cash and you sell it? All right, let's move on to issue four. parody bug. A user named DevObs199 discovered a unique bug in Ethereum's parody multi-sig wallets. He realized that anyone could kill the contracts and then he killed them all. Claiming to be an eth newbie, he was just learning. But he wiped out more than $300 million in Ethereum that is now forever locked in these wallets. The issue here again is simple. Jimmy Song, shoot Ethereum, roll back their chain to recover the locked funds. Will this affect the value of the ever-serging Ethereum? How long has it been surging? I thought it's been going down since the summer or something. I mean, this is why I call peak ICO. People bought Ethereum because they wanted to get on it on the nice CO. I don't know if they should or they shouldn't. That's more a moral question for the centralized governance system that they have. I'm sure Vitalik will say something at some point and say, we're not or we are or whatever. And then there's a bunch of eth heads that will come on Twitter and justify whatever it is that they said. It was the same way after the Dow hack. I watched an interview. I think it was like five minutes. I'll never get back. But basically they said, hey, what should we do? And the interviewer was like, I would totally understand if they didn't refund those people on the Dow. And I would totally understand if they did refund those people on the Dow. It was just kind of like whatever the party decides I am in favor of. And that's my story. I mean, I've been saying this for a while. Ethereum is centralized. So are a lot of all coins. In fact, I don't know anyone, anybody, except for Bitcoin, that's decentralized really. So that's the big difference between Bitcoin and all these other all coins. So if Ethereum wants to roll it back, that's their business. You have a president that gets to decide that sort of thing. If you're not, and whatever they choose to do, that's who's when you get to go with. And I don't know, maybe Vitalik decides based on the will of the Ethereum community or whatever it is. But this is kind of what you have with the centralized system. And whatever they decide is whatever they decide. I will say though that you should take into account what Warren Buffett said about companies. Make sure you invest in companies that are so profitable and so good that an idiot can run them, because someday an idiot will. So if you're going to invest in some sort of coin that's centralized, make sure that any idiot can make whatever decision, because someday, you will have an idiot running it. Now Jimmy, follow up questions. Let's say that they don't roll back the chain. Wouldn't it be worth it for this Polka.com company, which apparently lost $300 million to get some kind of a loan to make a third version of Ethereum with the idea of being that they could get back some percentage of this lost money? I guess. So I mean, I think you have to put everything on the table if you've lost $300 million. And if it requires a hard fork at making Ethereum classic classic, then that's so be it. But I don't want to manage to have their own Polka.com Ethereum. I'm not ruling that out. I don't know. And like you got the company, whatever companies decide to do, if it's sort of legal, and that's what the market demands, I'm not a number of bifin. And then printed their own debt token and paid everyone back. So I don't even know what's legal anymore. Yeah, I don't either. And if they decide to do it, then more power to them. I honestly don't really care. I will say though that I've said this about Ethereum in the past. There's a pretty large attack surface with having a term in complete language. And I'd hate to say I told you so, but I kind of told you so. So there you go. Well, let's go to tone Vaze with great power. Comes great attack surface. Well, on the quick thing on the bifin, a different X is a real company with real revenue and real customers. I have no idea who got hacked in this Ethereum garbage. But I guarantee you that was not even a company, which is some guy with a white paper. So what the hell are they going to make a debt token of? They just lost their scam money basically. So I don't mind. I don't have a problem with it. So everyone knows that I thought that Ethereum was complete garbage before the presale of their scam token. But I just want to, when did the hack happen? Like what day? Like I've just, I think it was about three days ago. We're getting it to it a little late. OK, so it was before this tweet that I have posted. And it might not even necessarily be a hack. It's been presented as a new user figuring out how contracts work and making a horrible mistake. I don't know if that's honest or not. Basically, when I tweeted the following, so Vitalik, like the fool that he is, tweeted out something very, very dumb. You guys heard what happened with Twitter, right? The Donald Trump account. You got taken down for 11 minutes. Jimmy, did you know that? Yeah, I heard. I saw that tweet. Yes. The Twitter employee on his way out, he was quitting, took down the Trump account. And now they're going to have the more safeguards for celebrity accounts. Well, I mean, yeah, you know what should happens. But Vitalik Buterin tweets out the following phrase of wisdom to that tweet. Can you DM me his name? I want to hire him. So here's the thing, right? So I immediately jumped all over this when I saw it. Like, I know I got to it like three days later, whatever, right? Because I'm busy. Unlike Vitalik, apparently. So everyone, like all of the Ethereum supporters, got like just jumped out my throat saying he's joking. I really love it when you know, priest joke about molesting little boys and you know, Obama jokes about using drones to kill civilians. I mean, those jokes are really funny to me, right? So what we have here is a guy that created a theorem who claims to be this, you know, wonder of decentralization. But what people don't know is in 2014, when Vitalik was launching his garbage, I got into a huge argument with him in a group chat because I found him to be a complete censurer and not understanding the meaning of decentralization and not understanding, you know, what privacy is. He has a complete backwards view on privacy. Now, I know this from like private arguments with him. So when he tweets something like this, it basically should show you how close he is about creating and managing a decentralized protocol because all he cares about is censorship, right? And so in light of this, my only comment to this guy that did that to a theorem is, please DM me his name, I want to hire him. And this is not a joke, okay? I'm done with that. I have enough to say. I mean, Ethereum is a piece of crap. I mean, these things are gonna keep happening. I mean, I totally figured this out with the Dow, but nobody learned. Well, I think that was probably a joke by Vitalik, but he has made some comments on whether they should roll back before and he seems kind of interested and open to it. We just have definitely, they should definitely roll it back. I mean, they should absolutely roll back Ethereum and give people their money back because they've already set a precedent that this is what they do. I mean, not doing it in this case, but doing it in the other case creates a complete hypocrisy for the Ethereum foundation. They obviously have, like it's a no brainer to roll it back. Everyone's expecting you to roll it back. The only reason why Ethereum was brought back to life after the Dow disaster is because everyone took the Vitalik put basically, hey, I can do whatever crap I want. And if all the money gets lost, he'll just roll it back. I mean, if he doesn't roll it back, it would create huge, like here's the thing, right? Like there was a huge confidence in Ethereum that helped drive the price up. And based on the fact that they can just roll back the stupid. So if you don't roll back the stupid, a lot of the confidence will now be lost in Ethereum. So it's kind of like a Lehman Brothers barister in situation, too? Well, not exactly. More like Lehman Brothers versus, you know, AIG because both Lehman and Bear went down. All right, let's go to Jeffrey Jones. Well, you know, I try to always preface this when I talk about Ethereum, that, you know, I do champion innovation and I do believe we're going through this global financial renaissance right now where all of the world is experimenting with cryptocurrency and the outcome of all this is going to be a better money, absolutely, a better and more fair financial system, you know, a more equal distribution of money itself. So it's really interesting to watch all of these people continue to, you know, defend Ethereum with all of these huge hacks that continue to happen. I mean, there's a huge difference in culture between Bitcoin and Ethereum. And it's really interesting from what I can tell it's these naive kids that want to get rich quick and just get as much money as possible and get a 30 million in their ICO. And then, you know, this, the, it seems that we have lost the original purpose here of changing money. They just seem to want to make more of it instead. And, you know, they're just crazy because you go to an Ethereum conference and you just see like Vitalik's face just everywhere. The Ethereum logo and Vitalik's face in every single freaking square inch of whatever facility that they have rented out. And it's just, it's just a little bit. It's not like how it's going to be at all. It's not like it's going to be at all. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. It's a little mind boggling when you first see it when you're a Bitcoiner and you go into any Ethereum conference, you're like, what the hell? But look, look, with that, with that aside, look, this is not the first hack that has happened with Ethereum due to, you know, solidity, a smart contract being written in solidity, executed in the wrong way, right? A way that the developer didn't want or didn't expect. This is not, this is not gonna be the first time, or this was not the first time and this is not gonna be the last time. As Jimmy said, you know, the solidity language pretty much lends itself to this type of behavior because there is no safeguards in place within the code itself. To, for example, making variables private and public, it'll let you make whatever variable you want anytime. No problem, turn complete, guys, turn complete, do whatever you wanna do. And, you know, what that does is it really, really, really increases the attack surface and increases the odds of a developer, a new developer making a mistake like this. And so, until the solidity language itself, like just improves, I mean, I really have to plug Blockstream's new programming language. It's so simple that it actually fits on a t-shirt. It's called simplicity. And, you know, these type of more restrictive scripting systems are what's going to be needed in smart contracts and money transfers. When you're talking about millions and hundreds of millions and eventually billions of dollars in these smart contracts and, you know, and on these transactions, it's really going to be important and imperative that we improve the tools that we use to build these systems. And so, I'm really hoping that, you know, they can do this because otherwise, we're gonna see another hundred million hack every other month. And then, again, not a hack, right? But another hundred million dollar mistake every other month. And, you know, maybe once they leave proof of work finally, my talent can just press a button to roll back the chain. Ah, the oopsie button. They need to get one of those. Let's move on to the exit question. Jimmy Song is this the last Ethereum bug we'll see? Yes, it's perfect now. Ah. If only that were the case. No, even the best code always has bugs. And unless you're using a language that lends itself to proving that your software doesn't have a bug, which, so literally, certainly is not. Yeah, it's gonna be kind of difficult. Tonve is, this is it. They fixed them all. Sorry. I, God know, I mean, they should consider themselves lucky that bigger incidents haven't happened in the last six months since the Dow. Like, I can't believe they lasted this long. Jeffrey Jones, they're all fixed. Oh, man, they got a long, long ways to go. And, you know, anybody who has any technical background at all can take a look at it and just be like, this is nuts that we're just allowing this type of open-turn complete language to handle all of these funds in this, one way that, by the way, once you execute it, you can't get it back. That's crazy. That sounds great to me. But let's move on to predictions or story of the week. Jimmy Song, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? I had one and then I forgot. Can you come back to me? All right, let's go to Tonve's. I mean, sure. I mean, I can glance at the Bitcoin price. I mean, I just did my show on my channel leading into this show. So there's lots of information there. I mean, just looking at the price we're going down. I don't know how far we're going to go down. I don't know how long we're going to go down. I will start guessing on how low and how far we're going to go. But right now, I got nothing for you. I have called this move. And at the moment, you know, this is one of those times where I'm going to let the market settle. I'm going to wait and see maybe another day or two what happens. But for now, if you're if you were in a short position, stay short. If you missed your chance to go short, then you probably should stay on the sidelines. If you missed your chance to sell and take profits, you may also want to stay on the sidelines and add some more on the dip like the chance that your opportunity to do the right thing was before was on November 5th, like I warned everyone for a month leading into November 5th. And the last couple of days after you should have realized that this move of canceling the fork was not going to be a positive for the price. And I explained that on this channel during our live show, as to why the cancellation of the fork would lead to to confidence loss in Bitcoin. And I explained some more of that on my Twitter. So I guess my story of the week is going to be the Bitcoin futures. Honestly, I like, I guess I've been on camera for too long. I don't remember if we've talked about that on the show already. And the show hasn't even been that long. I guess my story of the big is the Bitcoin futures. But not the futures themselves, just the complete and utter misunderstanding from almost anyone in the Bitcoin space and in the traditional finance space of not only how to trade futures, but also how futures work. Okay. As an example during the show, I just got the following tweet right here from someone. And I'm going to pull it up. They replied to us doing the show with the following. So BTC futures will be good for Bitcoin question mark. Look at gold. Look at gold trading today. Very similar dumping as last week after Europe and Asia markets close. Four million ounces of paper gold was dumped in the futures market in 15 minute period. Negative impact to public mindset. Okay. And I replied to it that this person has no freaking idea how futures work. Because the price of gold is determined by the futures. That is not going to be the case when it comes to the Bitcoin futures. Bitcoin futures price is going to be determined from the actual physical trading of Bitcoin on the exchange. This is the difference between physical delivery and cash settlement. And I tried to explain this on my channel earlier today. So this means that if someone sells a hundred million Bitcoin in the futures market, it would mean absolutely nothing to the price of Bitcoin. Unless that person also goes to the Bitcoin exchange and dumps the Bitcoin on the exchange. Right. So this is the equivalent of someone selling 18 trillion dollars worth of the Dow Jones futures contracts. And that person would just be a complete idiot because he cannot control the fate of the 30 stocks in the Dow Jones or the 500 stocks in the S&P 500. This is not how the futures market works. And if you're going to say that, at least understand the difference between a cash settled future and a physical delivery future. So I have a feeling I'm going to be dealing with this nonsense for at least the rest of the year. But yeah, so that's kind of my story of the week that please at least go to Wikipedia, put in the word futures contract and do a little bit of reading. So you understand what the hell you're talking about. All right, thanks, Tom, for that update. Let's go to Jeffrey Jones story of the week. Oh, man, this is, I mean, this was a huge week. I mean, the futures news, the 2x cancellation. I mean, all this stuff has been great. And then like I said, that solid, sorry, simplicity programming language from Blockstream was released last Monday. It's been a crazy couple of weeks. And I guess I don't have anything in particular. All I just want to do is just thank everybody who put a no 2x tag, you know, on their on their Twitter, who talked about no 2x, who talked about it in their Slack and in their community and all the people that from the groups are the Bitcoin Meetup groups around the world that came together and submitted their refusal to accept 2x. You know, there was half a dozen plus Bitcoin Meetup groups over a thousand people that all came together of per group and came up with these documents. And together we said no 2x. And so that I just want to thank everybody. I don't think I'm going to remove my hashtag, my Twitter no 2x hashtag, probably until next week after the fork was supposed to happen. Just, you know, just so we can stay on, stay on and make sure nothing crazy goes on, but just to make sure. But other than that, yeah, I just want to thank everybody and work work. This we can move onward now. And there are so many amazing things coming up. I actually have on my show this Sunday, the Bitcoin News Show. I have Matt Carello and Kyle Torpe that are going to be talking about all the new stuff that's coming down the pipe for Bitcoin. Very, very, very exciting times. Very good, Jeff. Let's not get put away the garlic and crosses just yet. Jimmy Song, are you ready with a story of the week? Kind of. My story of the week is Lightning Network. It is coming. There are four different implementations of the node software and lightning. John Newberry did like a tweet storm after the 2x things saying, hey, here's all the stuff that we're working on. The most interesting was the lightning stuff. There's something from Lightning Labs, something from an elements project, MIT's digital currency initiative. It's also something called declare. I've been talking about this. How the lightning won't really be useful until the infrastructure is being built out. Well, there's the infrastructure. They're being built out right now. They're UIs on top of all of these things. And a lot of people are working on those. So shout out to all of those people. So, you know, it's great. I think we're going to see a lot of technology sort of like combining and making Bitcoin even better than it is now. So, you know, that's kind of what we have to look forward to. A lot of people are like, well, 2x drama is over. What am I going to think about next? Well, the next stuff is, you know, Lightning Network, better security, HSMs, masks, and all this other stuff that's a snore signatures and segment version 1, segment version 2. I mean, there's a ton of stuff that we can put in. And, you know, the debates aren't going to stop. They're going to be a little more technical in nature and won't be so simple as, do we increase the block size or do we do segue? And, you know, hopefully there will be a lot more community engagement on that stuff too, because, you know, as users, we have a lot more power than we think. And I think this 2x thing showed that the entire social consensus aspect of Bitcoin was sort of showed it to strengthen this. I think it would have showed even stronger if they actually went through with the fork. And they still will. I think there will be at least one minor that will work. But it won't, it'll be much more like Bitcoin cash was than it would have been with more minor supporting. So, yeah, my story of the week is that there is a lot more stuff that's going to happen. And, you know, like don't think you can now go to sleep because the segment 2x drama is over. You don't need to, you know, be depressed because you don't have a fight anymore. You just, you know, there's plenty of stuff coming, especially over the next few years. And we're just getting started. Like, you know, lightning is exciting. A lot of other stuff is very exciting. I was just reading about, you know, compact proofs or range proofs and compact compact range proofs for confidential transactions. That's super, super exciting. If you know anything about range proofs, they're like thousands and thousands of bites. And if you can make them very compact, this was one of the scaling Bitcoin talks like 32 bites. Oh, that's, that's just gigantic like that. That just makes scaling so much easier with confidential stuff. So, some really exciting stuff, especially if we implement side chains. Paul's work has, you know, has been talking about that. He's very close to asking for a bit number at which point debate commences. If you like instead to sort of like, you know, going Facebook official with like a relationship or something. So, you know, he's very close, but he's still a little hesitant because, you know, he's not quite sure he wants to do this yet. That sort of thing. So lots of stuff coming down the pipe. Stay tuned. It's going to be an exciting year coming up. It's just real quick. What was the name of that latest wallet lightning law that just got released this week? Nutrino? Nutrino? Okay. Yeah. Cause that was a brand new lightning wall that just got released this week. So it just tons of lightning development going on. All right. Really exciting new stuff from Jimmy. It sounds great. I'm excited to hear it. I just wanted to echo what Jimmy and Jeff said about the no 2x movement and the UASF movement, both of which were about the users. The users made their choice. They sponsored their nodes. They changed their Twitter handles. They put out their hashtags and we were able to stop it. I think it's a good thing. But I do think it's also clear we're surrounded by the same conspirators that tried to fork Bitcoin. The miners are still with us. They're much more questionable now than they used to be. And we might have to think of proof of work or proof of stake or maybe some other new solution that I don't know. But I think the problem is centralized mining. It puts us in the position where they think they own Bitcoin. They think they can choose what's next for Bitcoin. And this problem will work itself out again in the future. But at least now, thanks to the stoppage of the nuclear war, we have more time to talk about it. And we can think of new solutions. And that's where it's before it felt like we were running out of time. We're running out of time. Thanks to everybody for giving us a thumbs up and a share. If it's your first time here, please subscribe down below. We've got Jeffrey Jones with the Bitcoin News Show coming up on Sunday. And thanks to everybody who gave us a donation in the super chat. Or if you'd like to donate with Bitcoin, you can use the address on your screen right now. Until next time. Bye, bye. You