The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi, the best Bitcoin, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Jimmy Song, Bitcoin developer. Hey everyone, good to be here. Tom Vays from Liberty Life Trail. Hey guys, coming to you from sunny Arizona, shout out, earning your freedom's Phoenix for putting me up. Jeffrey Jones from the Bitcoin News Show. Hey guys, thanks so much for joining us on this lovely Friday afternoon. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, reminding you to give this episode a like and a share. Coming on to issue one, Bitcoin, 6000. The price of Bitcoin jumped more than 5% today, rising from the 5,600s all the way to 6,000 and beyond. Jimmy Song, what is causing this continued growth in Bitcoin? Is it simply the result of increased demand or are savvy gamblers attempting to get into the Bitcoin before the B2X4 can a cynical attempt to profit off the new coins? Well, I'd say it's a lot of demand obviously. There's a lot of people that are coming into the crypto space and they've been waiting for dips for months or something like that. And then when the dip hits, they're like, oh, I'm scared, I don't want to buy anymore. And then it goes up again. They've gone through that mental cycle of having to watch that grow and then the pain of it or waiting for the dip and then it dipping and then not buying and then it going up again. And they've experienced that pain often enough where they're just sort of getting sick of it and they're just saying, you know what, I'm just going to buy. I think that's what's happening at this point because people have been coming into this space for the last six months, like millions of people and they all want to buy. They want to be in this thing and that's a large part of this learning experience in Bitcoin is that if you wait too long, you're just not going to get any. So you might as well get some now. The other factor is that I think there's some coins moving from all coins back to Bitcoin. I'd hate to say it, but I think part of the reason is that they see Bitcoin gold is coming and they want their free Bitcoin gold coins, same with 2x. And you know, I'm part of that is a little bit cynical. They want their free coins and then they'll leave or something like that. But it's also sort of this expected anti fragility that they think Bitcoin will build up as a result of these hard for us. And I think that's right. I think that Bitcoin will get stronger as a result of these hard for us. I think people will learn and you know, Bitcoin will become a better store of value and therefore it's going to keep going up. Tone this. All right. Well, I agree with a couple of things that Jimmy said. I wouldn't say millions of people rushing in. Let's hold our horses there for a second. I don't think it's that many people running into buy Bitcoin. I certainly in Korea alone, I bet you there's at least a few million in Korea alone. Yeah, how many of them are got scammed into B cash is the question, right? It's the buy Bitcoin. Right. We're just probably why that disaster is still anywhere above five bucks. But so I definitely agree on the old coins. I really think that a lot of value right now is, you know, the big flipping is now happening from old coins back to Bitcoin. Ethereum is hitting major lows and some of the other ones as well. I mean, these old coins have to get more and more creative in order to entice people to get on to them. And as we have covered here for weeks on end, the new creativity is, well, let's push them into Bitcoin before getting the old coin, which is what all the Bitcoin forks are. Now I personally don't think Bitcoin gold is that serious driving people into Bitcoin, but the 2x fork maybe, perhaps more recently, like I just got into a couple of discussions. This might be a question for you, Jimmy, before I forget because while it's still fresh in my head, in people's preparation for the two upcoming hard forks, is there a need to have your Bitcoin in a segwit address? I mean, you can have it in any address, I think all of these forks will support segwit. So you can have it in a segwit address. You can have it in a normal address. It doesn't matter. It'll just sort of multiply either way. Bitcoin's segwit, 2x definitely has segwit. Bitcoin gold looks like it will also have segwit, so no worries there. Okay, good. So what I think, I think this is where the gold people messed up a little bit, and if only they would have consulted with someone like me, I would have told them what they should have done was they should have pushed back their fork date, like the freeze date. It should have pushed that back into early November. And then what they should have said was, we're going to count it as a, let's say November first, but you won't be able to split it until after the 2x hard fork block, because this way, you're giving people more of a reason to take their private keys to other clients. You're kind of sinking it. That would have been the smart thing to do. Because a lot of people are going to, you know, move their Bitcoin after the 2x hard fork in order to put those private keys on a new client. I'm assuming there's replay protection coming because they're not that dumb. But now you can just take that private key and you can instantly put it onto two different clients and just get two coins. So it would have been simple for the user. That's one thing that they could have done. But I don't think that's the main driver. Honestly, I'm a technical trader. I was going to save my charts till the end. I'm not going to do screen share now. I'll do it in prediction time. But look, I've been saying bullish for how many months now? I've just been bullish. I'm a technical trader. I'm going to trust my charts. I'm going to trust my technicals. And my technicals have always said new highs coming in November. And I didn't even know about the hard fork back when I was saying it. I mean, the charts were calling for higher prices into November. And here we go. And people are just missing out. And the liquidity is not that high. And between all that, we're going higher. Now, I don't know how high we're going to get. But I do see prices to come down into going into and after the 2x hard fork. I'm not sure what difference changing the date would be. You're still going to have to claim your B gold. You're still going to have to claim your B2X. It's two separate operations. Jeff, it's an annoyance. It's an annoyance. It's still the same. It's not the same. It's not the same. It's not the same. Windows 95, you have to upgrade twice no matter what it is. One additional step to then move your coins again before pulling out your four coins. I think it's one of the things that we don't know what clients will be available and what the process will be for either one. So it's really hard to say whether or not you can just directly import a private key or whether there's going to be specific things that you need to do with Bitcoin gold. So it's really hard to say on that front. Honestly, I think Bitcoin gold. I don't think they have any idea what they're doing. I think everyone is going to be so confused. No one is going to, nothing's going to happen there. But I've been wrong on the statement before. Jeffrey Jones. Well, just on a side note for B gold. They did recently update their site. So they actually have a list of exchanges that they plan to be on. I'm not sure if there's wallets on there yet. I don't believe they actually have any wallet software yet for us to decide if it's going to be easier or not. But one would assume it's going to just produce a wallet and just be like B cash. So they want it to make it as easy as possible because they want as many people using it as possible. So we'll have to see. But yeah, so let me just get to the actual main question here, the main topic. I mean, look, I was watching Adam Meister's podcast. And they were talking about how you're not really like a Bitcoin OG unless you've been goxed. And I think all of us here have been pretty much goxed. And so in the past, or at least been around where MT gox was there. And we've seen a lot of stuff with Bitcoin. We've seen the price rise and rise. And it just continues to impress me with this resilience over and over again every year. I mean, over five, so over 600% growth this year. It's absolutely kind of crazy. Just a couple of stats. We're now at a $100 billion market cap, which is greater than 91% of the companies in the S&P 500, including PayPal, Microsoft, and Goldman Sachs. Bitcoin domination is back to 57% and climbing. So amazing stuff. Bitcoin just continues to impress. Now, why is the price rising? Well, there's a bunch of reasons. Besides the fact that of course, it is the longest chain with the biggest ecosystem and the best devs. And the fact that Bitcoin is scaling with SegWit now over 16% and continuing to rise as well. We have the ledger's market that's going online soon. If not already online, the ledger X market. The floodgates just seem to be opening up with, we just seem to have increased demand. The floodgates really are opening up as the price rises. It starts new media cycles. More and more people get into Bitcoin. More and more people are asking what it is. Of course, the ICO craze this year just pushed everything up into the people's consciousness and things like that. And so I'm not sure how much there is, how much of this demand can be attributed to the 2X fork coming up. If anything, you'd think that it might scare people and not have as much demand. But of course, all the smart people understand that, hey, look, if you buy now, then you're definitely going to have free coins after the fork. So I really don't see that as being a huge, huge driver. Besides the fact that of its history and how Bitcoin continues to be resilient. So it just continues to grow and grow. Let's move on to the exit question. The price of Bitcoin this time next week will be higher or lower than 6,000. Jimmy's on. It's higher than 6,000 right now. I can't see it being lower than that. But yeah, I mean, I think Bitcoin gold is coming. I think a lot of people are going to consolidate from all coins, the type of people that buy all coins are going to want to come back and get their free Bitcoin gold and then leave again or something like that. We'll see. I will note that at least one exchange already has a futures market for Bitcoin gold. And I imagine more will. And the nice thing about Bitcoin gold because they're freezing it on a specific block is that you can pay out the Bitcoin after that. And you don't have to do this weird splitting thing that BipFanX does. You can, the exchanges that have that support Bitcoin gold can just trade Bitcoin. As long as you put it on the exchange before October 25th, you can have it. And then yeah, anyway, we'll talk more about that in a little bit. But yeah, I would say that Bitcoin gold, there's a lot of people that want those coins. So they're going to stay with Bitcoin for a little bit and we'll be higher as a result. We'll be higher next week. I mean, I'd probably say higher even if your questions had 6,500. I mean, I'm very bullish on Bitcoin. I mean, I'm thinking 7,000 by end of month or early next month. Like I said, I'm looking for a top. Now, I'm also expecting it to fall pretty hard later this year. But for now, I am super bullish. I've been bullish. So definitely higher. One last comment. I think these hard forks coming up in November. They're actually going to help segwit a lot. Because like myself, for example, I have been mad lazy. I've also happened at home to move all of my Bitcoin to segwit. But because in preparation for the hard forks and potentially another 10 or 20% of my Bitcoin, this is a huge driver. And if I'm going to be consolidating my coins, I will certainly consolidate into segwit addresses. So I think these hard forks are actually helping Bitcoin in more ways than one. Jeffrey Jones. Yeah, a good point, tone, definitely. I think we're definitely going to go higher. I'm just as bullish as tone, not just on the technicals, but on the fundamentals as well. The answer is higher. Moving on to issue two. Country coins. Russia and China continue. Their skits of frenic competition this week, as each country continues to walk the line between accepting and rejecting the truth of Bitcoin into their hearts. This week's announcement is a little more on the rejecting side with both countries, saying that they will issue their own state-controlled crypto occurrences. Russia went a little bit further announcing the crypto-ruble, mindable only by the state with a 13% tax given to whenever the owner cannot explain where the crypto-rubles came from and the same 13% tax on any profits when cashing out. The Russians and Chinese joined Dubai who announced their own Emirates coin just last week. Tone Vays, will these country coins be successful in stopping Bitcoin? Or will they only help to spread the word? No, absolutely not. They'll do nothing to stop Bitcoin. I'm sure you got this from an article, but I'm not sure where it says that they're going to be mindable. Like how in the world are they going to be mindable? These are new Russian items. They're only going to be mindable by the Russian state, presumably the same for the Dubai coin and the Chinese coin. That's the state. Honestly, I think that is either an author of an article that has no clue what he's doing or someone told the author that has no clue what he was doing. Why in a world would a country waste electricity to mind their own coin? They're not that dumb. That makes sense. That's not how it's going to work. I'll talk about it a little more, but proof of work makes no sense when it's a centralized coin. Correct. These are not going to be proof of work coins. They are not going to be decentralized coins. This is a story we cover every single month on this show from another country. Every country wants to eliminate cash. Every country wants a digital currency. Whether it has encryption or it doesn't have encryption, it has nothing to do with Bitcoin. These are not decentralized. These are not proof of work coins. It's the same exact thing that they have now minus the cash. And since the cash only represents 2% to 5% of the total currency circulation for almost any country, nothing changes. It's just the elimination of 5% of their currency. And then they'll say they're on a theory or something just to get people interested. I don't think there is a crypto story here. I don't think this has anything to do with decentralization. People will realize that the best answer they have for these cryptocurrencies from the government is Bitcoin. I can't wait for this. I'm so happy for this. I wanted to eliminate cash as soon as possible. And then Bitcoin will go to $100,000 a coin. I just hope we have lightning before this happens. Jeffrey Jones. Yeah, I hope we have lightning two times before the entire government, the government to the world decide to ban cash completely. They're definitely on their way. I mean, there's many stats out there, over 90% of the world's money is already digital. We know what the banks want, the centralized banks and the governments want, like Tom said, 100% control, privatized money as much control as possible. So this is absolutely no different than fiat. This is a country attempting to stay hip and look like they're doing something new to spend their taxpayers' money to actually look like they're doing something worthwhile. This is, of course, worthless. Nothing burger. Nobody's going to buy this. And Bitcoin will continue its reign as a true decentralized currency platform. This is the centralized coins and these centralized attempts from these banks and these governments are definitely going to fall very, very short of the power that Bitcoin will bring back to the people. Jimmy, song. So I've been seeing this for a while. Like a lot of the technology that Bitcoin has, sort of like the immutability and sort of immutability and things of that nature, if you apply it the wrong way, Bitcoin uses it as a force of good, right? To make sound money available to everybody. When it goes to a state and if they utilize it the way they want to utilize it, they can do a lot of people things. So they can completely centralize everything. Instead of having proof of work, what they'll have is a single private key that they control and that they sign with. And that's how they will sort of validate blocks is or will determine which blocks go, which transactions go is they'll just sign the whole thing and then it'll go through. But what that does is it gives the government ultimate censorship over any transaction at any time, which is kind of a scary thing. But that's what they want to do. And this is sort of the level of control that these states kind of want. And it's not a surprise to me that Russia and China are two of the countries that are doing this because they do have sort of authoritarian tendencies. If they want to stop a transaction from happening, all they have to do is just leave it out of the block. It's very easy, right? And it's kind of, you know, it's the ideal for an authoritarian state because they have ultimate control over every single transaction. Now, they've been wanting to eliminate cash for years and this sort of thing is very, very normal in that sense. But you know, I can't see it really catching on that well largely because other than taxes, they can't really force you to use it. I mean, I guess they could put you in jail for owning Bitcoin or something, but how are they going to be able to prove that, right? Like, you know, I mean, they're all sorts of hiding things and people are just going to learn how to hide it better and better as the state tries to imprint. So the only real application with all of this stuff is that you're going to have the ability to maybe atomically swap these things against Bitcoin. So right now with most exchanges, the part that's slow, the part that's rife with fraud and all this other stuff is actually the fiat part. It takes like six days to, you know, get money into an exchange largely because the system of fiat transferring is really, really slow. So if you did have something like the crypto-ruble, it would be pretty much instant. So that would be really, really nice if you can just sort of exchange between the two. But you know, these governments will quickly realize, oh, wait, if I have a crypto-ruble and I make it really convenient for people to convert that to Bitcoin, well, what do you think is going to happen, right? Like, people are going to buy Bitcoin. I think a $100,000 Bitcoin like Tone was saying is entirely possible, not just because of the cash part, but because you have this ability to exchange it really, really quickly. And that's something that I think everyone's going to look forward to if it does happen. But that's it. I mean, it's a lot of technology and infrastructure that you need to build to make these coins viable. So I can't see it as something that's really utilized for another 10 years at least. I mean, states move really, really slow. And even if the crypto-ruble were to happen tomorrow with somebody that's as authoritarian as Bolot or Miracutan is, it's still going to take a long time because it's going to be a long time before everyone has like a digital device and the right software that's not hackable and all the merchants are there and all this other stuff, it's going to take a lot. Is it question given the choice, which would you buy? Crypto-ruble, China coin or Emirates coin, tone-based? I mean, out of those three, I'd try, I mean, I wouldn't do Russia. I would either do the Chinese one or the Emirates one. They seem to be a little more responsible. I mean, China is trying to be the next global financial superpower and Emirates has just been more responsible with their currencies historically. But yeah, so just one quick note on all of it, while those guys were talking, is that Bitcoin, and this was the speculation that some people had a criticism on Bitcoin saying, hey, Bitcoin is going to get the governments to eliminate cash and then boom, they control the Bitcoin. Now they get to control the Bitcoin part wrong in my opinion. But governments are like if they can't beat Bitcoin, they can at least, you know, utilize Bitcoin in order to eliminate cash. So they're like just using the same buzzwords, right? So Bitcoin is helping governments prepare people for the elimination of cash. So governments are happy about this, right? I mean, they get to eliminate cash and they get to have only their cryptocurrencies and then the way they look at it is like, you know what? Let's use Bitcoin. Let's eliminate cash and then we will try to squash Bitcoin. Now I believe we will defeat them, but it's going to be a battle. Let's be ready. Jeffrey Jones. Oh, Lord, I guess out of all those three I'd buy Ethereum. No. That tells you how low I think of those three currencies. No, it's going to be crazy. They're going to try to sell them to their citizens and Bitcoin is going to compare it against Bitcoin and they're going to choose Bitcoin every time. Jimmy, song. I'm going to go with Emirates Coin. They're the only one with English common laws, the basis of their sort of economy and things like that. So I'm going to go with that. I want the common rights of an Englishman. It's a trick question. I wouldn't buy any of these three coins unless I lived in the area and could pay taxes in the coin, even then I would only buy the amount to pay the tax. Just like for mind, everyone to give us a thumbs up and a share. We have about 840 live viewers and I know if you guys gave us a thumbs up and a share we could get to 1000. I'll keep you updated if we can make it. Moving on to issue three. 50 Bitcoins paid in fees. Bitcoin's usability problems continue to be a real nightmare. As a user paid 50 Bitcoins, more than $250,000 in fees accidentally in January of this year. The user who sent the coins from his blockchain.info wallet attempted to send a 50 Krone or fee but instead sent 50 Bitcoins. At first, his cries to Reddit and elsewhere went unheard but now he has reached out to the World Crypto Network. And thanks to the help of Jimmy Song, he has cryptographically proven that it was indeed his wallet that sent the massive fee, a fee that was giving to the mine and pool, one hash.com. Jeffrey Jones, I ask you, will one hash do the right thing and return the massive fee to the user? Additionally, what can be done about these massive fees in the future? Is it the responsibility of the wallet programmers, the Bitcoin network, or neither to protect its users from such an egregious mistake? Well, that's some good questions in there, Thomas. I hope a lot of people are listening to this. You really have to set your fees in your wallets. You have to set max limits and really start to do some detection to see, look, if I'm only sending a couple hundred dollars or a thousand dollars, please don't send 250,000 in fees. Now, I was alerted that somebody sent me a direct message that said that the blockchain that InfoWallet does apparently warn you and with a pop-up. So maybe they didn't have that working back then or maybe they've improved that now. So that's really something that all wallets and all that stuff needs to be there. Because look, this is early days. The software is not fully ready for consumer, consumer, you know, just the regular average consumer. So we have to be do-diligent, we have to be on top of these wallets and on top of this user interfaces and make sure that these experiences are as easy to use as possible. So I really hope that OneHash does do the right thing. We have had incidents of this before of people sending too many, too high of a fee and we have had pools return the Bitcoin. So we've actually have had this happen before and we hope that OneHash will add to this legacy of helping the average person out of the pool or the exchange, you know, helping somebody out with this fee. And with thanks and thanks so much to Jimmy for, you know, working on this and cryptographically verifying that this is the guy because of course, we're right with scams in this space right now. But I just really hope that OneHash does the right thing and I hope all you guys out there, this is just can be a lesson to you guys that, you know, his, his, almost, I guess you could say, error slash sacrifice, right, doesn't go in vain. We really need people to pay attention to this kind of stuff and really get it out there. And I really hope that everything works out for him. Jimmy, song. Yeah. So obviously this, this happened on my show on Thursday. I was, I was talking about something and then all of a sudden I keep, I got like all these slack messages. I lost 50 coins back in January. Can you help me? And I was a little bit skeptical. I got a minute because it's like, okay, if you really lost it and you back in January, which you really be telling me now. But you know, I, I was like, I took him out his word. I went on a Skype call with him and he showed me the wallet. So I was like, okay, do this, this, this, and this and sign this message and email it to me. He emailed it to me. I verified it using Armory. There are other tools that you can do. I think the Bitcoin core wallet has one. Most wallets have some sort of signing verification. This is one of the advantages of using public key cryptography is that you can sign not just Bitcoin transactions, but also messages. And that's what he did. He signed it, sent it over. I looked at it. I verified it and I was like, oh my goodness. Wow, what a story. I posted it on Reddit and of course they took it down or he posted it on Reddit. They took it down because he was like a redditor for like two minutes when he posted it and they thought it was a scam even though there was cryptographic proof. I'm kind of annoyed by Reddit right now. But anyway, so I wrote up that story and you know, it's sort of gotten a lot of play. I also contacted some people I knew and they were very helpful. Specifically, I want to give a shout out to Charlie Shrem who put me in contact with somebody at one hash. I did email them and I sent both proofs, the one that I published on the blog and another one that was more personal that has the person's name and email and what happened and everything sent that as well. They haven't gotten back to me though. And who knows if they will. It's not exactly the sort of thing that they're maybe eager to look at. But this story to me is like a fascinating experiment into the social antifragility of Bitcoin. And this is something that not a lot of people talk about but there is a community around Bitcoin and you need to be seen as trustworthy to do a lot of business. And it's odd to say that because it's supposed to be this trustless protocol and it is. But in order to do business with people, they want to know that you'll be fair beyond just sort of like the rules of the protocol itself. And this is why for example, back when there was another person that utilized the Bitcoin software and there was like a flaw in it and they ended up sending like 75 Bitcoins to a mining pool as the fee. You know, Ben Davenport came on and straight up said, okay, we're going to cover this for you because it's our fault. And then the mining pool said, well, you know, we don't, you know, this is an hour's week and they gave it back. And that's part of what I would call the social community of Bitcoin and like sort of having a good reputation actually still matters because that's part of being able to do business with people. And then we're going to have these companies, you know, we'll hold the private key for you. So it's important that they establish trust. So, you know, hopefully he gets at least some of the money back. We don't know exactly how much. There's been some debate at least on Twitter about, you know, how much should he get back? Because 50 Bitcoins when he sent it as a fee was more like $50,000, 50 Bitcoins now is like, you know, $300,000. So, you know, those are two very, very different numbers. And depending on the mining pool and what they did with it, if they converted to cash right away and sort of kept it in a bank account, I wouldn't blame them at all if they just gave them, gave them the $50,000 instead of, you know, $300,000 because they didn't keep it in Bitcoin. But, you know, I mean, they're sort of really interesting questions along with this that I'm really curious about and see how they will handle. But that said, yeah, I mean, you got to be really careful. I do put some of this on the blockchain.info devs because, you know, they do make it convenient for you to see, you know, what your local currency is. If you click on like the BTC amount, it'll automatically switch and show you. But at the same time, you know, you make egregious mistakes like this. I mean, he meant to send 10 Bitcoins to his friend and you wanted to put in 50 crore ner as the thing. But you can't do both, right? Like it has to always be in Bitcoin or always be in Croner or something like that. And that's part of the blockchain.info wallet interface. And that was the problem that he meant to send 10 Bitcoin. But, you know, and 50 crore ner and fees. But instead it interpreted both as Bitcoins and then, you know, off it went. So, you know, wallet devs have to be a lot more smart about protecting their users. Of course, I think you should have a wallet that's like full node and stuff like that. And that sort of centralized, well, I mean, at least with the blockchain, that info wallet, the private key sort of is on your side. But I mean, you know, like that's not a wallet that you should use with that kind of money. It's, you know, it's fine for, you know, like, however much you have in your pocket wallet right now. But it's not fine when it's like $50,000. So yeah, that's my thought on it. Jimmy, did one hash have to wait? Could they have sent his back his money immediately? Well, they didn't know what was going on. And like there was no credit. It is like an extreme overpayment of a fee. Maybe if they doubled the fee, but this is like a $405 out of a massive increase, right? I don't know what efforts they made to find the owner. But this is one of the things about Bitcoin, it's pseudonymous. So unless they knew something about the owner, there's really nothing they can do. I could put the incentive back to the original address. I'm just saying. Yeah, I mean, you're not really supposed to do that. You're supposed to use new addresses every single time. But yeah, I mean, I mean, they could have, but then it would have just sort of been like, you know, I mean, like you never know. There might have been somebody that wanted to see what would happen. Like, you can't just assume that that was, you know, that that course of action would end up with the right moral thing. Right. And that's what sends me a package and I write return to sender on it. It just goes back to them. I don't know. But yeah, yeah. Yeah, go ahead. From what I heard, like one of the reasons why you don't want to do that is because that Bitcoin could have came through like some kind of a mixer. So then you actually have no idea who you're sending it back to, which is why you always want to check with with the sender before sending back to the same address. Yeah, so I learned that long ago, not never to automatically assume that sending back to the address you got it from will return it to the same person. Yeah. So what Tony is saying is correct. So if you were sending money from an exchange to somebody, the address that it sends from has no correlation to your account on the exchange. So it very well, well, may just go to the exchange. Like if this guy sent it from, you know, an exchange and not like a Bitcoin wallet or something like that, then it would have just gone to the exchange exchange. It would have been like, we got 50 Bitcoins. We have no idea who it belongs to. And it would have been an even worse situation or worse yet, it might have credited the wrong person in which case, you know, I mean, there are so many bad things about like doing it that way. That's please don't do that like ever. It's just like we assume that the address it came from is the place that you should be funded to. All right, go ahead, Tom. All right. So my view on it is, look, it's all about. I mean, I don't think what was it? One hash. I don't think one hash is automatically responsible for returning it. Now it would be nice if they would. Now the best way one hash can go about resolving this problem is if they fully come out publicly and explain what was done with that 50 Bitcoin. And I'm sure it's very easy for them to prove what was done with it. They redistributed to their miners, in which case, sorry, man, you're not getting it back. Or they kept it for themselves. And then if they kept it for themselves, they would need to somehow state or prove whether they held on to it in Bitcoin or whether that Bitcoin was used for, you know, one hash operations. Now if Bitcoin was used for one hash operations, that I think it would be nice if they returned the USD equivalent at the time of the fee. If they held on to it in Bitcoin, it would be nice if they returned it. But like this should have been done back in January. Like I'm sorry. Like there has to be some kind of a structural limitations. Like even if it was like a month later, I would have a lot more sympathy, but trying to be completely neutral here. Like it's great if any of that amount of money are returned. But consider yourself lucky if any amount of money is actually returned. Not sure to serve about the statute of limitations argument, but let's move on to the exit question. According to a poll on Twitter created by mad bitcoins, 57% do not believe that one hash will return the fee. Are these cynics correct or will one hash pull out the PR coup of a lifetime returning the entire 50 bitcoins to the user? Jeffrey Jones. Oh man. I really hope that they can get it returned. But what was the actual question? Sorry Thomas, I was moderating chat. Yes or no, will they return the fee? Man, we really hope that they do and set an example of why the Bitcoin community is so amazing. Jimmy, saw it. I'm optimistic. I don't think he's going to get all 50 bitcoins back, but something like $50,000 worth of Bitcoin, that's right now about eight or nine Bitcoin. I think that's a reasonable number. And I imagine that's probably what they're going to do. Tone this. I agree with Jimmy. Your question really should have had three choices for people. One is they return nothing to is they return $50,000 worth of Bitcoin or whatever the equivalent USD at the time. And then the third answer is 50 Bitcoin. And I think that that middle answer for approximately 50,000 or that that average, I think that would have won the poll. And I think that's what's actually might happen most likely. The answer is yes, they will return all 50 Bitcoin. Moving on to issue four. We have 992 viewers, just a few more thumbs up and shares and subscribe and we will break 1,000. Issue four, Segwit 2x, aka the corporate takeover of Bitcoin. It is becoming increasingly clear that what will be happening in November will be nothing less than a large scale corporate takeover of Bitcoin. In a message to the Segwit 2x mailing list, Bitco CEO Mike Scheltbelschi, orages his fellow conspirators to enter the quiet period, claiming to have 90% minor support and under the cloak of increasing Bitcoin's transaction capability by endlessly doubling the block size. The Bitcoin 2x are attacking Bitcoin on all fronts, refusing to provide replay protection, planning economic attacks such as mass buying and selling, as well as spreading conclusion amongst the Bitcoin user base by labeling Bitcoin 2x as Bitcoin BTC. The one true Bitcoin. Jimmy Song, will the corporations be successful in taking control of the Bitcoin protocol away from the Bitcoin core development team, centralizing Bitcoin companies, Bitcoin miners, and Bitcoin code all under a single roof? Well, I don't think there is a corporate takeover. It's just some people that decided to go their own lane. That's their right as part of Bitcoin. They have every right to hard fork. Whether people follow them or not is entirely not up to them, which is an interesting thing. Futures markets seem to be pretty consistent. I think there are three futures markets now. I forget the other two. But Bitfinex certainly seems to show that 2x doesn't have that much support. That seems to be the pattern that we've seen is that if you're forced to upgrade, it's going to have a lower value, largely because the rest of the ecosystem might not upgrade with you. Despite their refusal, they're refusing to provide strong replay protection because that will isolate them from the rest of the ecosystem. They're asking full nodes to upgrade, but not the wallets. They think that the wallets don't need to upgrade and follow their chain along. I don't think that's the right attitude. If you are expecting everyone to hard fork, every node to hard fork or to upgrade, then you should expect all the rest of the ecosystem to upgrade with you. If you have that much cloud, if you have that much influence to be able to convince everybody that's running a full node to upgrade, then you should utilize that same influence over the rest of the ecosystem. I don't see them doing that. They're two minds on this. On the one hand, they're saying, everyone's going to use our stuff. But at the same time, they're saying, well, these people don't have to upgrade. I see those as inconsistent. This is a fork. I see the ones that don't have to upgrade. The fork that's the legacy side of a hard fork is having a massive advantage for that reason. This is how it's going to go with hard forks going forward. I think 2018 is the year of the hard fork. I think there would be a lot more hard forks. I predicted this back at Breaking Bitcoin. I showed that funny image of all kinds of big coins being on the coin market cap charts. I really think that's going to happen in 2018. If the future's markets are indicators of Bitcoin gold, for example, it's right now trading at about $150, $200 somewhere around there. That seems to indicate that at those prices, that's going to be just a little bit below Bitcoin cash, but it'll be, I think, in the top 10 of the cryptocurrency market cap. That's going to be the way forward. It's way easier than doing an all-coin launch. You'll be higher on the charts than ICOs, and you don't incur the security, like all the legal liabilities that you risk with doing an ICO. This is probably going to be the way to do it. The innovation that Bitcoin gold is putting on is their pre-mine, which I find hilarious. They're going to just advanced 8,000 blocks from October 25th and just keep all the mining rework to themselves. That's going to become common too, because that's the way they're going to make money out of it. This is the way forward. I don't agree with it, but that's what's going to happen. We've broken 1,000 users, thanks to your support, 1,000 viewers, tone-based. Yeah, the more you look at the backdoor deals that led to this 2X garbage, the more you see how it's basically companies like Coinbase and Zappo and all the other holders of your Bitcoin that just want to compete with PayPal and not actually compete in the decentralized crypto space. That's not their business model. Their business model is PayPal, and they want to put PayPal out of business with the centralized coin. They will do everything they can in order to push out Bitcoin core developers. That's the plan. This is also why their plan would fail. You can call it a corporate takeover, but I don't like that phrasing because a corporate takeover usually succeeds in its desired goal. This thing is not going to come close to succeeding. Working code and attempt at a stupid attempt at a corporate takeover, but that's as close as I'll get to that analogy. They want to keep forking and forking to only have one miner and only have one winner between Zappo and Coinbase. They would really compete amongst themselves for who's going to be PayPal versus competing with decentralized wallets that let people hold their own Bitcoin. For example, small wallets like AirBits, like Green Address, like Samurai, like some of my favorite wallets, they're infinitely better than the garbage blockchain that info. These wallets only have one to three developers working on those wallets. It's very difficult for them to code in these hard forks. But for a wallet like Zappo, it should be easy and for a wallet like Coinbase, it should be easy. Yet Coinbase still hasn't gotten their shit together to code for B Cash. This is the crazy part. Coinbase isn't a favor of a 2x hard fork, yet they still can't give people their B Cash. This is just like complete insanity. It's like you're building a rocket to go to the moon, but you can't even build a rocket to go 20 feet in your driveway that's successful. It's just amazing. It's amazing why people continue to listen to these big companies that can't get anything done. But at the same time, they are putting pressure on these small wallets for whom that have the technical capability to get it done. But there's only so much resources one developer can put in to some of these things. This is just a complete failure of an attempt for a corporate takeover of Bitcoin to turn it into PayPal. Jeffrey Jones. Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything the panel has said so far. I mean, the futures markets are telling us what's going on. They were really, really accurate when it comes to B Cash. And now all the three futures markets we have now are telling us that 2x is only going to be worth around 0.1. I mean, that's right there in black and white for everybody to see the market is choosing core. Now, I mean, Twitter poll, after Twitter poll, I mean, I saw a Twitter post the other day of one of the main Twitter polls that was taken where they were literally scrolling for three minutes straight, scrolling down of all the people that said that replied, no, would you like 2x or not? Just scrolling for minutes and minutes and minutes and minutes. And of course, saw myself in there as well. But I was looking to see if I could find me. But it was just endless. And the people in the market and the community has spoken. People, there's a lot of fear in the hard fork. But as we've been saying on the World Crypto Network, I think more and more, with every fork it's going to add to its immutability, right? With every fork, it's going to immunize it and continue the anti-fragility of Bitcoin. Like Jimmy says, these forks are not going to be the end of Bitcoin. They're not going to harm Bitcoin. They really are just going to dilute themselves further and further the more forks we get. But they will not dilute Bitcoin. They're still will only ever be 21 million BTC. And it's also interesting that we had a couple of people I know that were helping us out with the World Crypto Network. A couple of volunteers were looking into the GitHub terms of service. And if you look in there closely, you can see that we actually even tweeted it out that I believe that 2x, say with 2x BTC1, the repo, violates a couple of different terms of service from GitHub. And really kind of puts it almost in the malware category, category. So I really encourage people to check that out. Look at GitHub terms and service and tell me if 2x is violating it because it sounds like it is. I mean, there's going to be people that are going to get sued over this. I mean, this is now up to the exchanges and the wallets to write their own replay protection because they are not going to be left holding the bag. They're not going to be left out in the cold, screwed over with the wrong chain. They are going to program replay protection, whether it's, you know, whether we seat on the front end of the interface of the website or not, they're going to make sure that they are still going to have the right Bitcoin. So I think the market is already chosen and we'll see what happens. But like Tony says, I mean, this is simply an attempt to replace Core, the main dev team of Bitcoin that has kept Bitcoin going for all of these years, you know, handed down the client from Satoshi himself. So it's going to be really interesting to see and I'm looking forward to the free money. Right. Well, speaking of the lawsuits because someone asked in the chat while we started this discussion, will the dev be liable in a lawsuit? And I asked which devs and they specifically said Garzick and Garzick works for block, which is, you know, Matt Rosax and, you know, he's the main, I guess, financial backer there. So my view on it again, I'm not a lawyer, but my view on it is I don't see how Jeff Garzick is going to be legally liable for writing code. It's going to be who is using his code and where those companies like Zappel, like Coinbase, some of the other companies, they should know what code they're using. So I really don't see anything that Garzick does making him legally liable for people's Bitcoin, but the companies that choose to trust his code would then have to defend why they did it. And there could be a lawsuit there saying you've been warned publicly by so many experts that this is not safe and you went ahead and used it anyway. And that is sheer negligence from a company like Zappel, from a company like Coinbase that shouldn't have known better. So to answer the question, I don't see Garzick in block being sued over this, but I do see somebody like Zappel being sued over this. Now Zappel can then turn around and try and sue block to recover some of that money, but that's kind of how I view on it. I want to agree with Jeff here that if the Segwit 2X is malware, if Garzick has publicly authored code that attacks someone else's network, he would be liable for that code. And if it's in violation of GitHub terms, email GitHub as well, maybe they'll take it down. And my view is that he wouldn't be because the code is still open source. It's in the public domain. It doesn't matter if you run open source malware or not. If you publicly sign it, if you were the author, malware is written by evil hackers. Garzick is publicly signing this. You can't do that. Well, let's see what Jimmy has to say, but I'm taking the other side on this. I mean, it's who uses open source code? I mean, the plenty of resources. This is why there's licenses on open source code, right? There's an MIT license. There's a canoe, whatever. There's like 100 licenses. And they spell out exactly. Most of them say, we're not liable for the stupid crap you do with this software. And you use it at your own risk. So I think that will protect the developers of whatever. If you decide to use it and you didn't audit the code and you did whatever it is and you suffered the consequences, that's your fault. That's what most open source software says. We are not liable for your stupid use of our stuff. And if you didn't audit it, that's your problem. And I think that's the right way to do it. If people decide to use the 2x code, they should go audit it. They should make sure it works. They should look at it and make sure it's not doing anything. It's crazy. If it has malware, then you should at that point say, you know what? I'm not cool with this. I'm not going to run it. Or I'll make my own implementation or whatever. The only reason people go and use it is because they think they can save some time and some developer money or whatever. So I have no real sympathy for you if you use open source software that you didn't read and you lose money as a result. You're supposed to go and utilize it. If you didn't audit it, if you weren't aware that there's malware in it, well, that's kind of your stupid fault. Now, if they did something deceitful, they put a link to a binary and it's actually not a compilation of the actual source code there. And that has malware. That I can understand. But if it's just the source code and if you're smart, you go compile it from source anyway, well then, I mean, you didn't look at the source code for anything fishy or weird in there. You didn't have anyone do it. I have no sympathy for you. None whatsoever. If that ends up hurting you, then tough luck, buddy. You've got to go and be a little more careful next time. Yeah, I mean, this is just a comment on Jimmy's note. I mean, to please, please audit the software you guys. You companies out there, please audit Segwit2X because what we're seeing here is an increasing disagreement between the companies and their CEOs, the companies tech people and their CEOs. We are seeing this with all sorts of examples. I'm not going to name names, but look, company after company, there are CTOs and their lead developers are disagreeing with the CEO. These, listen to your technology people, listen to your developers. This is why you hired them audit the software and or else you're going to suffer the consequences. I'm sure that the CEOs know what they're doing. As they said in Star Wars, I've analyzed their attack plan, sir. There is some risk. But let's move on to the exit question, the price of Bitcoin after the fork up or down, Jimmy's off. Oh, up, way up. I really hope there's no replay protection. I'm going to have an article next week about sort of manually doing replay protection on your own, utilizing mixing. But yeah, I mean, I've been saying this for a while. I think, you know, if you don't have replay protection and everyone immunizes against it, everyone learns how to deal with it, that makes the entire Bitcoin ecosystem more anti-fragile, more robust, stronger, and makes it a better store of value, it should cause the price to go up even higher. As Bell she said on the mailing list, there will be no replay protection. The goal is to create one coin. The goal is not to create two coins. They don't see it as a fork. They see it as an upgrade. Tom Vays. I'm going to say down. I see this as a seldom news situation. To me, this is another instance of a Bitcoin hard fork. It's another instance of the ETF where the price goes up so much into the news event that no matter what happens during the news event, there's just no more buyers left to buy. So I see a blow of top happening before the 2x hard fork late October, early November, and I already see us starting to come down into the day of the fork and probably for the next few weeks to a month than after. So I'm going to call it down, but from higher levels than we are right now. Jeffrey Jones. Yeah, I'm the same. I think a lot of traders are expecting a dip in November with the fork, whether that happens on the day of the fork right before or right after. We're definitely expecting a bunch of run-up until then. And then again, at that point, it's a perfect point to sell and correct. So after we do a run-up every time we have to correct at some point and we could be running up at least for the next month or so and then the 2x would provide a perfect time to correct, leaving us probably between 5 and 6K by the end of the year. Bonus question. Personally, are you going to sell or are you going to hold both sides of the fork? I personally plan to hold both sides of the fork. I am risk averse and I will not underestimate their chances. Jimmy's song. Yeah, I'm definitely holding both until there's a good opportunity. But yeah, my stuff isn't cold storage. It's a giant paint to get it out. Unless it's an extraordinary opportunity, I probably won't be doing anything with them. Toned bait. I mean, I will sell it all first chance I get at 10% or higher. The moment I can get 10% on my 2x or higher, it's all being sold. If it's below 10%, I'm just not going to bother selling it. So I'm not holding it. Hoping it goes up. The first chance I get to make 10% on my Bitcoin, it's gone. Jeffrey Jones. Yeah, I kind of have to agree again with Ton here. I think a lot of people are the same. I mean, if they can get 10 to 15%, they're going to sell. And I think I'm in the same boat. I mean, 20% would be nice, but we're just not seeing that in the future. So I mean, based on what the futures are between now and then, it's looking like as soon as it hits 10 to 15%, I'm selling it. All right. Let's move on to predictions or a story of the week. Jimmy Song, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Sure. My story of the week is the conference coming up in Stanford. It's called Scaling Bitcoin. I find it interesting that there's another conference called DevCon in Cancun. And of course, that's kind of an ICO fast. Everyone's going to go there. Well, so it sort of typifies for me sort of this divide that we have in the crypto community. You have one side that wants the party on the beach and just raise money and think it's all a party. And then you have on the other side, Scaling Bitcoin people. They're presenting academic papers about how to scale Bitcoin. They're talking about all the technical things. And then the other side are people that are just partying it up in Cancun and raising lots of money on ICOs. Which side would you rather be on? I really hope you make the right decision. Anyway. Scaling Bitcoin is coming up. There's something I'm teaching at called DevPlus, which happens the two days before. It's meant to be a course for a lot of developers. You will learn all sorts of things about Bitcoin. And it's going to cover a lot of stuff. And it'll give you sort of a high level overview. I also have my course programming blockchain coming two days before that. And it's meant to be complimentary. In my course, you build a Python library from scratch. And it's in the middle somewhere, you actually end up sending testnet coins that utilizing a transaction that you've built from scratch. You also learn how to connect to other nodes and all this other stuff. So I've got fantastic feedback over it. Just check Twitter and stuff and my website. Anyway, all three things are happening the same week in Stanford. It starts October 31st. It will go all the way until November 5th. And I encourage you guys to go to that thing, not DevCon, not Party in Cancun and do whatever. You know, I mean, yeah. So anyway, yeah, I would encourage you guys. That's my story of the week. Some sun does sound nice. Let's go to Jeffrey Jones. Yeah. It's such a good point, Jimmy. I mean, you actually, you said it a couple times. Like you actually compared the the block con that we were just that recently too, where all the presentations were basically like from used car salesmen, begging for money. I mean, they were not technical academic papers at all. And so yeah, what a big huge difference between that and something like breaking Bitcoin and scaling Bitcoin. I mean, you just know wherever the Bitcoiners go, that's where the good conference is going to be. And Bitcoiners, for the most part, are at breaking Bitcoin, scaling Bitcoin, right? They're not so much at like block con and consensus, right? So interesting, interesting parallels there. So or contrast, there we go, interesting contrast. My story of the week is going to be I tweeted this out. And it seemed to almost go a little viral, like at least as far as my my Twitter following is concerned. I got a couple hundred likes. And so basically there was I came across a link that's that's something that thanks to Jimmy and Jimmy, we actually talked about it. We got it. And I got to bring it out again. Y'all's dot org. Okay. Y-A-L-L-S dot org. You guys have to check this out. My Twitter following loved it. And I think a lot of people are loving it. You get to play around with the Lightning Network. It gives you a link to show where you can get a Lightning wallet. So what this is is it's a yours clone, a yours network clone, but using the Lightning. So I basically tweeted out, hey, if you guys like the yours website, but hey, be cash, check out y'alls. Y'alls dot org. So definitely fun to play with using the Lightning Network. I encourage everybody to check it out. Download the Lightning Network wallet. Play with it. See that you can send TZ tiny transactions and pennies instantly once you open up a channel. So amazing technology, amazingly good stuff, example of of the Lightning Network and what's to come. And of course, just a side note as well, the Lightning team did just release a new client as well. So you guys got to check this out. We're definitely making progress and SegWit is over 60%. So you can bet that Lightning is coming very soon after we reach 50 to 75%. You can bet that Lightning is going to be everywhere and Bitcoin is scaling. I can only hope that my friend Mackey will see this because he helped name it yours and I'll bet he'd love y'alls. Tone ways. All right. Well, just like Jimmy, I will also be at scaling Bitcoin. I still need to reach out to them. But I already have my plane ticket. I'll be landing on the third like just a day before or the morning of because I'm flying in from Ukraine where I'm speaking just a few days earlier. But I will be at that event. I'm actually so happy that DevCon and all the Ethereum devs, there's no way I'm going to see them at scaling Bitcoin because they're all going to be down in Cancun. So this should be a really good event looking forward to it. All right. Let's do a screen share real quick. Shout out to Vortex where yesterday he informed me of segwood.party website where you can see how much segwood is being used. And yesterday we were way lower at like below 15% and now we're all the way near 18%. I mean, I think over the next few weeks, I mean, this will hit like 50%. I think so many people will move over to segwood addresses for no other reason than to try and take advantage of the upcoming hard for it. And then Bitcoin transactions are going to be very, very cheap. As usual, oh, here's the scaling Bitcoin event. I still got to email them like secure my ticket for that event. But let's just talk about the price. Let's talk about the price some more. Right? I covered it quickly late last night on our little scaling talk. But here's the weekly chart. I mean, what am I looking at? I drew this green arrow four weeks ago. And I like, I couldn't have drawn it any better. If I was to redraw this arrow, this is exactly how I would have drawn it. And I'm looking for six more weeks of upside. But that's taken us all the way into late November. That's even more optimistic. I'm thinking we're going to tap out somewhere in mid November. But I still think there's plenty of upside left according to the technicals. Here's the daily chart. Now the daily chart is a little bit tricky. Obviously, which is broke past the previous all time high. So the moment you go above this green line, you're in bullish territory. Now I also noticed that even though some my indicators with these numbers, I normally scream by when a green number goes above the previous green number. But what I really need to pay attention to is this could have easily been a green one with this being a green two. And because look at this is Bitfinex. The FOM on DIT stamp and I go to one day, you can see that the current candle is already a two and that one's a one. So to me, this is just like a difference of pennies. So even this indicator, I know I might be cherry picking the exchange, but I would have considered this a huge bullish sign because Bitcoin isn't just one exchange. You really got to, I always look at it as what makes more sense. And what makes more sense is treating this as a green one and this is a green two because that's what other exchanges had. So that also means, and I missed it in real time because I wasn't I was busy, I wasn't paying attention to all of the exchanges. That also means that the moment today's candle, this candle we're looking at right here, broke the high of yesterday's candle. It was another reason to go long Bitcoin as a trader using daily charts. And now we're off to the races for another eight to nine days of upside. I mean, this green giant green arrow was grossly optimistic and we're beating it. We're above it. Like I couldn't be any more bullish. Here's the four hour chart. The four hour chart gave me a green arrow and now we're on a four looking for five more candles of upside. I was looking for this little pullback. I drew this in yesterday during our live show. I came close and then wow, I underestimated the strength of a new all time high again. But I couldn't be any more bullish. Here's the hourly chart. We had a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of a caution signal a few hours ago. We're kind of hanging around this area. But once we go to new all time highs, that's just another leg up. I just remain very bullish. Now, if we look at B cash, this is a complete disaster in the making. Can't wait till we go back below this line and down we go. And only because I have it up, I mean, Ethereum continues to make new lows and this goes into that this whole movement from altcoins pretty much back into Bitcoin. And there you go. And I think I've been out in the Arizona sun long enough. And on this note, I'll let Thomas close it out and I'm going to hit the pool, guys. Wait, wait, wait. I want to see if tone can jump in the pool or not. Let's see if tone is going to jump in the pool. What's going to do? Keep on the big screen. Keep on the big screen, Thomas. All right. There he is. He's. Oh my God. He's taking off his shirt. Oh, God. So it's on the camera. That shirt is on the camera. All right. He dies it. All right. All right. All right. We just like to thank everybody for watching and giving us a thumbs up in a share. We hit 1118 live viewers during the show. Bitcoin was at an all time high of, I don't know, 6080, something like that during the show. If you'd like to donate some Bitcoin to us here at the World Crypto Network, go and pause the video. You can send it right now to the address on your screen, like 10 or 20 bucks. That would be really cool. Or maybe 10 or 20 million. A big share to include that Bitcoin fee. Don't send us 50 Bitcoins in the fee. We'll be back next week. We'll be back in a couple of days with the Bitcoin News show on Sunday. And I'll be back tomorrow with today in Bitcoin. Hopefully tone will be around for some Bitcoin price updates this week and check out a new episode of Jimmy Song off chain. Right here below on the World Crypto Network. Subscribe if you haven't already. It'd be great to get some more subscribers. Thanks so much for your support. Bye. Bye.