The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Gabriel D. Vine from Future Rant. Hello, Internet, hello, posterity, and hello, Bitcoin all time high. Jimmy Song, Bitcoin developer. We're doing great today. I think everyone's going to be very happy. We'd love to see a higher on time. I... Tone Vays from Liberty Life Trail. Soap, everyone. Glad to be here. Sal, sell everything. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. It's hot in this suit. Moving on to issue one. Issue one, Bitcoin price, $4,909. It's another all time high for Bitcoin. As you can tell, if you do a search on Google in the mainstream media, Bitcoin price is getting crazy. Bitcoin climbs to another all time high. If you bought $100 worth of Bitcoin a year ago, blah, blah, blah, blah, and Gabriel D. Vine, what do you think? Is this it? Is this the Bitcoin all time high? Or will it go higher? Well, I have been saying for a short time now about a week that I believe that we are actually nearing a fair value for Bitcoin. Now, of course, this is a completely somewhat irrelevant concept. I know that it's something that's based on intangibles, fundamentals. It's something that I've been thinking about for a while. And actually, I really always enjoyed ASAP Stability. This is a person who has been creating charts for several years. And basically, he just takes the trend, the long-term trend pops him out onto these charts. He needs to make a rainbow charts for a long time where we're in the middle, which is yellow. And then lower frequency colors, like red goes down to red, and then it goes higher into the higher frequency colors. And basically, if the chart is in the yellow, you're at a more close to fair value. If you go over, then the situation is overbought. If it's undervalued or oversold. And it's been really very, very accurate. Things dipped during the bear market, the long two-year Bitcoin bear market, the price was dropping even below the rainbow, below the red color or something at the bottom. Yeah, I'm not a ASAP Stability, AZOP. And it was undervalued for months and months and months and months, a couple years. In my opinion, as I've been saying, Bitcoin is totally undervalued, undervalued, undervalued all year. 2000, I started to think, OK, maybe, you know, as ASAP's charts started to go into the yellow, I started to think, OK, now we're somewhere near fair value. And I really think that now, finally, you know, with the censorship resistance, 18 or 75 billion or whatever we are in the market cap, starting to feel like we're maybe more getting the market is kind of pricing in the value that Bitcoin is giving. And it's accurately pricing in the technical challenges ahead, like fungibility and scaling, while still recognizing the incredible store value and an amazing consistency of the market, as well as resiliency or resilience in the risks of the hard fork and sort of bouncing back. In my opinion, I think we're just kind of coming into a maybe a short-term bubble, Cliff High, who does linguistic analysis on internet traffic has specifically indicated that his data a short-term high of 6888, or the D is claiming his data shows a 6888 price and then a massive drop, something around 40-ish percent, which would actually take us, I believe, back to thousands. And I wouldn't be surprised to see that at all. So I think we're probably heading into a short-term bubble here that's going to correct back, but the mid-four figures I think is a really good, really great place for us to be in a really healthy pricing. And I think we're starting to see something that is accurate to the offering here in the market price. It's hard to call a top for a thing with no top. We just like to ask everybody to give us a thumbs up and a share. We've got around 500 viewers. If it's your first time here, please subscribe. We talk about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency almost all the time. Jimmy, so long, what do you think? Can Bitcoin go higher? Or is there something magical about 5,000? Well, it's always a psychological point. But I mean, I'm still of the mind that there are multiple drivers of this run-up. One, the having from last summer is still like getting people are realizing there isn't quite as much supply anymore. So that's causing the demand to go up. I also think that there's been a lot of chaos. And Bitcoin is proving to be more and more anti-fragile. Whatever there's chaos in this order, pricing is going up. There were multiple things that have been happening this week. I think Bitcoin Cash. There's something called Bitcoin Gold. I don't even know if that's worth talking about. But there's 2X, drama, Segwitz obviously on the network and everything else. All these things, they cause a lot of price action and oftentimes to the higher side. So it really depends on what happens in the next few weeks. But as long as there's chaos in this order, I think Bitcoin price will keep going up. Tones, Bitcoin is the anti-fragile honey badger. There's chaos in the world and the happening happened. Half the Bitcoin mines in the world shut down. Are you going to bet against Bitcoin? Hey, guys. Yeah, this is a really interesting development that's going on right now. And I'm debating, do I want to do screen share right now on the price of Bitcoin? Or do I want to wait till the prediction or story of the week? Maybe it's a good time for me to save the prediction for something else that I will do that screen share. And I'll just briefly talk about my view on the price. I know I did my economic show yesterday where I talked about it in detail. But a lot more things just happened. Okay, so look, is weird is this is going to sound? And this is probably going out on the limb? I don't see 5,000 this week. I just don't. Like right now, if I was an active trader, which I'm not, I would be looking to take my profit short term. I still think we're going to break 5,000 in September. But I don't see it happening. We're about to go into a three day weekend. Banks are about to close for three days. There's going to be a lot less activity. I mean, as big pointers don't really have lives, but some of the people that run companies do. Okay, I'm not going to talk about my personal indicators here, but this is a significant top that's happening on BitFinex right now today. I mean, I still want to see a reversal candle. We are looking at 49.30 right here on BitFinex. This should be, this is the daily bit stamp, which hit 49.35. I just don't see 5,000 like I know the sounds absolutely crazy. And normally I'm logical and I say, hey, you wait for the reversal candle. You never guess the top. And I'm not telling anybody to short Bitcoin. But what I'm saying is I'm looking for a top between right now, this absolute second and 49.75. So I'm only looking at about 50 more dollars of upside. I could be totally wrong before the show ends. We could be at 5,300 dollars by the time the show ends. But right now, this seems to be completely overextended to me on every time frame other than the weekly timeframe. The long term weekly timeframe is the only time frame where I am still bullish. Every other time frame from daily across multiple exchanges to the four hour, to the one hour, they all seem extended. They all seem due for a short term pullback. So what am I looking if I'm right? And this is a big if. Like I probably wouldn't even put much money on it. But I am looking for a top literally right here at 49.75. I am then looking for prices to pull back over the weekend and into next week. How far can they pull back? Well, I don't expect it to pull back lower than let's say 4,700. Maybe it can go all the way down to 4,6, 4,500. Like we could fall here. We have met all of my targets. Like I have no more targets. And we have a 5,000 round number that were on the verge of crossing. So I am looking for a pullback to that 47.50, maybe even lower over the weekend and into next week. Then some time end of next week and into middle of September and to later in September, I am looking for 5,000 and beyond. But right now, if I was an active trader and I caught this bull run, I would be looking to take my profit and be very happy. You can always get back here. But I would wait for a pullback here. Everything is just skyrocketing and I think that the buying is on the verge of being short term exhausted. All right, there it is. Toned vase calls the top. Everyone can buy in now if you're using tone as a counter indicator. Let's move on to the exit question Gabriel D. Vaughn. This time next week, higher or lower. This time next week, September 8th, higher. Jimmy Song. Higher. Toned vase. Lower. I mean, I have to go with lower here. If you asked me two weeks out, I would have said higher, but next week lower. And the answer is higher. The problem with technical analysis is it can't predict the future only the past. Moving on to issue two SEC. The SEC warned this week on Twitter, investors. Beware of scams involving initial coin offering related claims. Specifically, the SEC was talking about first Bitcoin capital, who stock went up 6,000% after they announced that they were flirting with the idea of an ICO. Also this week, the world crypto network hosted the San Francisco Bitcoin meetup where we had three lawyers and I grilled them on the ideas of SEC Bitcoin and legality. Jimmy Song, will the ICOs last forever? Will the ICOs last forever? Or is this the beginning of the end for free money for everyone? I, it's, I can't see it last thing. I mean, that, the current situation is just so extremely frothy. I mean, but that, that said, I don't know how much more fraught there is. I mean, but it can't last forever. That's, that's for certain. I've asked lives from years from now. I don't know. And that that speaks to sort of the market appetite for asymmetric bets. I think for in general, a lot of people like asymmetric bets, especially the kind that can get you 5, 6, 6 returns. And, you know, in many ways, lottery sort of tap into the psyche, right? It's, it's this idea you can, you can just invest like a dollar or two. But, but, you know, get, get a huge return on it. I mean, this, this particular ICO thing, it, it does have some, you know, supply demand issues. There tends to be a limited supply. And people want to get in on it and get a ton of money. There's a lot of greed on both sides. I just can't see it last thing forever. But that's it. I have no idea when it ends. Tones, when will I be able to buy my own private island? Haha. Well, I don't know. Let's hope by 2020, by holding on to a couple of Bitcoin, I see the ICO boom is completely coming to an end. I mean, some of the things that are being posted now are just ridiculous. Like, it's getting way out of control. And we now, and all of these, I mean, I like calling them scammers, but all of these people that want to print their own money, they now have, you know, a better model. And that better model is forking Bitcoin. It's just a better model because I, I did watch that panel with the lawyers and like, they don't know anything, like no offense, but they just don't because nobody knows anything, right? Because there is no law. And it's not there fault. It's just completely unknown. Now I, I'm not a lawyer, so I can say crazy stuff like all of that shit is a security. Like, I don't care what they think it is. To me, it's so obviously a security that the SEC is just probably dumbfounded going, how can these people be so stupid? And I think a lot of these ICO people are going to learn. And it's just bad. I think that whole model is about to disappear because it makes no sense from any angle. I think the future will be more and more creative ways of forking Bitcoin without damaging Bitcoin. And we talked about it on this show. I remember which your heart was on. I forgot what show exactly it was. This was weeks ago where I said in the future, in the near future, everyone is going to try to fork Bitcoin and they're going to change the mining algorithm so that the fork of Bitcoin is not actually competing with Bitcoin for the miners. They're going to start attacking altcoins by using their proof of work algorithm so that you're competing with another altcoin. And that seems like exactly what's starting to happen. I don't care for these air drops anymore. But I think the ICO model is about to go away. But I can't believe it was with us to begin with. I always thought it was the dumbest thing in the world. So we'll see what happens. I really do think it's about to go away. I'm still enjoying my free laptop from the last air drop. Could just ask everybody to give us a thumbs up in a share. We have 750 viewers. I think we could break 1,000. Gabriel D. Vaan, more ICOs or less? I'm going to say less in the short term and more in the long term. There's an interesting point here where definitely one full foot fall into the transition into a new crypto world. And the SEC is kind of bewildered, I think, by this. The type of innovation that crypto enables is just so wild and so different than what has come before the counterparty laden infrastructure that the SEC is accustomed to regulating. So this first foot fall, as mentioned, is just kind of the first explosions of innovation. As Jimmy and Tony pointed out, mostly scams and the SEC, of course, it's their job to point these things out. And it's true what they say. I'm kind of a little bit more interested to see what the SEC does when not only is there this explosion of financial innovation, but also their budgets are getting slashed because of cryptographic money standards, gobbling up the huge portions of the world economy and bankrupting governments. So that will be maybe the second footfall when they just, it's just hopeless. They're still in this position where they think they're super powerful. So it'll be fun to watch them flailing around in complete irrelevance at that point. I'm looking forward to that. All right. Let's move on to the exit question. Jimmy Song, what happens next? Will there be another explosion of ICOs, perhaps on other platforms, perhaps more encrypted more secretive ICOs, maybe on LISC and Waves and RISE and Iconomi and all these stellar, all of these platforms? Or will the SEC warn and crack down this industry? Is it going to get bigger or is it going to get better? Well, I don't know if either of those will happen in the long term, but I will say that once people start losing money and they go crying to the SEC, that's when they'll act. I think before then, they're only going to look for cases of really, really obvious fraud, like somebody like, you know, embezzling funds for a Lambo, something like that. Until then, I think we're going to see them just sort of be hands off. They are sort of a normal government entity in the sense that they react, not pro act. So that's what I expect. Tone Vays, bigger or better? Wait, what does that bigger or better would mean? Oh, oh, and like in the future? I mean, there'll be more of them. I don't think they're going to have much of a relevance. I think all of this is going to get standardized. All right, look, guys, if you actually have a business and you actually have a CEO within the next year, you're going to be fully regulated by an SEC or perhaps some kind of a global body on, you know, ICOs, right? Like it's, you're not going to be able to do this a year from now. So there could be more of them, but they're going to be regulated. They're going to be registered. Maybe the SEC will be too slow, but will there be more sure? Will it be the same wild, wild west with no guarantees on these things? No, that's not going to happen. I mean, there will be accountability added into the space and the regulation would mandate that. And if the whole, unless, you know, there is this big ICO bubble and like a theory of implodes, which I've been waiting for to happen, and then they'll all just go away and then everyone would go screaming. And then the SEC would regulate it, but then nobody else would do it, right? Because kind of like the housing crisis, like the regulators came in, they made a dot Frank Act to stop everything that was done in 2005 to 2007. But by that point, nobody was already doing it. Like it was over. Like enough people lost their jobs in a financial world that no one was going to do that same bullshit anyway. But the all just heavy regulation came in and now it's actually bad for the ecosystem because no one was going to redo the same mistake. So that could also very likely to happen. All right, I'll leave it there. Gabriel D. Vine, do we get bigger or better? I don't understand this question. Bigger what? I don't see more ICOs or will the SEC be successful in limiting the number? I don't see how it can be better. I don't see, maybe Gabe can find a way for it to be better. I don't see how it can possibly be better. The question is, is it bigger? Well, you yourself did say there will be standards in the industry that will develop and mature over time. So that could maybe be considered better. But I'm certainly bigger regardless. I think probably things are going to get more wild as things get bigger. There will be less ability to control it. But then things in the industry, maybe some norms will come about and people will develop some things. So yeah, it's not looking good for better. The answer is bigger. It's going to get much, much bigger for every person that gets into Bitcoin. There's a person that gets into name and altcoin that doesn't own Bitcoin and doesn't care. They only care about name your altcoin. There's going to be more of them. They all need to get rich quick and they heard about Ethereum. Moving on to issue three. The creator of the world's first Bitcoin fuel pump. As you know, gas station should accept Bitcoin. Plans lightning support. What does this mean? This means that the idea of micro transactions is moving from a world where they'd be useful to a world where they'd be super useful. Get ready for micro transactions. Meanwhile on Twitter, Jeff Garzick disagrees with me. I said that if lightning network is too centralized for you, you could use Bitcoin and pay greater fees, meaning that the lightning network would be useful for paying for coffee, which doesn't exactly need to be anonymous. The Bitcoin network could be used for houses, lambo's, and questionable activities. Toned Vays, is there a future for Bitcoin in micro payments and the lightning network? So what does Garzick mean by that reply? Like it makes no sense. I think he meant to disagree with me. He follows up and says more, I can go to Garzick's reply. Please. I would love to see his reply. Garzick says, referring to myself, he says, no apparent acknowledgement that high fees are pushing users away from decentralized layer one towards the more centralized options. The problem is exacerbated by lack of mature level two options, leaving centralized websites as the best choice to avoid high fees. So Garzick seems to be saying that the core developers, the lightning developers, have entered into a conspiracy to drive up fees on the Bitcoin network to force you to use the lightning network, which is then centralized and not as good. I think that's his art. I'm getting such conflicted reports. I'm getting that some of the core developers actually hate lightning network and they don't want to see any level two scaling. Meanwhile, here is Garzick saying that all that the core developers want is to push everyone on the core two scaling. Look, there will always be other options. Look, if the lightning isn't solving the job and you don't want to use lightning because you feel it's to centralized. Now, me personally, I believe that lightning is going to be more decentralized than Bitcoin is today. I believe that lightning will be more anonymous than that's not what Jeff said. Jeff was saying that the level two stuff isn't mature enough and users are getting pushed towards centralized alternatives like private companies. Obviously, it's not mature enough. I mean, we just got segwit. I mean, maybe if Jeff didn't fight segwit, we would have had it six months ago, right? Like, it's like you're complaining that there's no highways for my car. Well, the car was invented yesterday. We haven't had time to build the highway for it yet, right? You're complaining about something that literally is just now going into testing. It's completely crazy, right? They were like last night when I was watching the mempool. The size of the mempool was 600 transactions with half a megabyte waiting to be mined on the next block. Meanwhile, we were all told that the blocks are to full a year ago, right? And here we are yesterday where the mempool is literally half empty and it will get completely empty within five minutes, right? This is complete crazy talk. So am I looking forward to microtransactions? Actually I am not. Personally, I don't care, okay? But I know there are a lot of people that are dying for microtransactions, okay? And these people were promised. And I just had this debate. If anyone watches, you know, Freedom's Phoenix with Ernie Hancock, I mean, I literally was like debating him and Davy Barker over this because they were promised microtransactions. And my argument was who promised you microtransactions? And they say, well, Bitcoin promised us. And I'm like, how is that possible, right? Just because a couple of guys promised you microtransactions five years ago. And they built their businesses around microtransactions. And the current code couldn't deliver it. And it still can't deliver it for another year. It doesn't mean you throw out the decentralization of Bitcoin and hand it off to a couple of clowns to program. I mean, this is ridiculous. Now look, I think microtransactions are useful, but they're not needed. Look, censorship resistant value transfer is what's important. Not microtransactions. Microtransactions are a nice plus. So I'm expecting to get microtransactions within 12 to 18 months. I'll be happy. I'm not expecting everybody to start using it. It does make sense for gas stations to use it over most other industries. But gas stations are not going to rush to use Bitcoin because they don't know if it's legal. Nobody does. All right. So I'll leave it at that. I mean, the gas, the gas industry is fairly regulated. And they're going to want to be very, very clear because something like some gas station that isn't mobile, that isn't like exon, that isn't a big boy, they may not want to take a chance. Hey, what if we start accepting it and then some regulator forces us to shut down every gas station for the next three months while they're figuring out what we're doing? So it's not as simple as it sounds, guys. And there's one little mom and shop pop accepting Bitcoin for gas. That sounds great. When it's a big company with like a thousand employees, it's not that easy anymore, right? It's not like some libertarian CEO like Patrick Bern running overstock.com. If you're a real corporation with real investors and real accountability, you're going to be a little bit careful about what you're doing down over there at the pump because they're going to say, well, what if someone anonymous is using Bitcoin that came from a bad transaction at your pump? I mean, it's not that easy, guys. It's really not. And I love me to play devil's advocate to tone. Imagine that you're a gas station. Imagine you're the company that makes gas. You're the ones that told us about credit card fees. You put the sticker on the pump and then you told people how much money you're spending every time they swipe their card. Remember you popularized the cards because they're great for your pumps. But now you're thinking to yourself, Saudi Arabia is having problems. They're not making as much money from oil. What if you started selling your oil for Bitcoin? A commodity like gold that actually goes up in value. You could save Saudi Arabia. You could save the UAE. You could future proof these companies, countries, sorry, with Bitcoin. It is possible. It's like everyone pound that like button. As Adam Meister says, we move on to Gabriel Devon, the future of Bitcoin. Micro payments? So before I get to micro payments, I just like to say that for at least a year now, if not two or two and a half or three years, Jeff Garza has been a troll. He has been very clearly against the vision of Bitcoin. He's for centralization, he's a baker, he's a liar and a cheat and a troll. I'm assuming the CIA or somebody gave him a visit and said, hey, we're going to kill your kids unless you make this blockchain tracking company's scry and do what we say or you're dead. Or they said, hey, $1000 Bitcoin or $50 million, then just say these trolly things instead of the truth. He's just basically been lying for several years. What he said to you is total bullshit. As we can see, on the Bitcoin network is not that volatile. It's fucking obvious. There's the dude, I can't remember his name, but he did the big analysis a couple of months ago where he proved nearly conclusively that yes, these are spam attacks. Come on, they drop off in the matter of one block and they just stop and there's no traffic as tone pointed out. Then suddenly, as soon as there's a political, politically convenient need for it, the traffic on the Bitcoin network goes through the roof and there's a massive, come on. The natural usage of these miners are sending transactions to themselves that are totally inefficient on purpose and then they collect the fees. The spam attack isn't quite as expensive. That's what's really going on. It's an attack. It's a coordinated attack with spam side, rhetoric side, garrzic and the other tools are there. Smart people aren't falling for it for anymore. You shouldn't even pay attention to what this fucking troll says, Thomas, you're the man. Regarding micro transactions, I think that there are tonal acts of imagination. He's definitely illustrated that on the show numerous times. However, he has a very sharp mind for things that are actually going on in the present, which I may lack. Regarding the vision of micro transactions, the idea there is, of course, today. They're not of that much use. I agree that it's not really something that many users need or people need. I think that when the machine payable web, which lightning is one of the things that is necessary for that to take off, we have bots transacting tiny amounts of money. What you do with those software, automated software tools, is use them to create incredibly liquid markets and incredibly fast market penetration, where we maybe are not able to do so today. For example, for bandwidth or storage, things that we use large data centers and do things by hand and you have human beings looking at spreadsheets or looking at analytics data say at Google. We could maybe have decentralized systems where bots are paying each other several Satoshi's in order to contract services from each other at a layer that's just way underneath anybody and when a human being comes in and wants to contract usage out of those, you're drawing into that pool which is reacting instantly to market demand forces. Jimmy Song, micro payments for movie rentals, gas stations should take Bitcoin? I know it's really sexy to show people, hey, I'm going to send you $5 in Bitcoin and it's like, I could do it for a penny and you could be on the other side of the world. It looks cool. Yeah, I mean, it looks cool. It plays well and you get a nice reaction from people usually and they go, oh, I get it now, but really they don't get it. That's just one aspect of it and that's the medium of exchange aspect. The real magic of Bitcoin is that it's a really good store of value and whenever you spend a store of value and it goes up, you are going to regret it. I mean, I spent, I don't know, like $40 on beef jerky like four years ago, right? And it cost some amount of Bitcoin. I could probably get like 20 pounds of jerky for the amount that I spent on beef jerky four years ago. Yeah, this kind of the magic of sound money, it makes you want to save and that's what Bitcoin is. It is a sound money and with sound money, you're going to want to save it. And there's this fiat money that you're going to want to spend instead. And I think that's what most Bitcoiners realize after a while. Yeah, you'll get like a couple things from Amazon through purse or something and you know, be like, okay, well, I got a discount, whatever. Oh, I could pay for this coffee here. I can I can pay for a hotel room. I could pay for a computer, all that stuff. But that's not, and you end up regretting it very shortly after just because of the price rise and because of the way that Bitcoin is designed. You know, it's got a very strong network effect where if more people are into it, the more valuable kids because of the limited supply and all these other things. So as a result of that, the medium of exchange, while it has to be there because you need to be able to liquidate your Bitcoin, it's not nearly as important as people tend to think. I respect Jeff. I think he's right in the sense that, yeah, maybe, you know, like the point of sort of lightning was supposed to make scaling better or whatever. And if it's centralized, then it's not it doesn't have the exact same properties as on chain or whatever. And he's right in that sense. It's just, you know, like that's not a very big use case. I mean, it will enable certain things and people may want to transfer value over the lightning network. But I don't know personally, I just don't see that as a very important use case. Store value is much more important. Yeah. All right. Go ahead. I can't just jump back in here for a second. Okay. So let me just, I mean, while you guys were talking, I thought about it a little more. Let me try to explain something. Micro payments is not a technological problem before Bitcoin or after Bitcoin. Okay. We've had micro payments 10 years ago. Just because the credit card companies are lazy and aren't doing anything. Remember, the function of a credit card is to print money out of finair. Okay. You are when you pay a business, the visa is creating that money out of finair. It's not being borrowed from anyone. Visa is creating money. When you pay the credit card bill, Visa cancels that debt. The reason why the credit card is charging fees is one, the insurance of that transaction and B, basically they are operational cost of printing money out of finair. When I have project five for my cell phone bill, I pay for my data usage by the penny. That's a micro transaction. Okay. I mean, maybe they, if they wanted to, they can charge me by fractions of a penny. Okay. All these businesses have to do is coordinate. We now have Apple Pay. We have Google Pay. Samsung is having their own pay. I know these payment systems don't coordinate with each other, but there is no technological barrier that is stopping Apple Pay from communicating with Google Pay and then all of this shit settles once a month, once a week and automatically deducts it from your bank account to the penny. Okay. So, logical barrier here. There is. And you're missing an ingredient of the puzzle. You're still thinking of the parties doing the transacting as human beings or large companies or even small companies. These are entities which can settle on a weekly, monthly basis. However, in a decentralized, highly decentralized system, a network of tiny bots, each one controlling a small resource, tiny resource, not a data center, say a single computer somewhere or a little or one vehicle or how about a flying insect bot, a large electricity? These are the situations where micro transactions make sense. It's the tiny atomized networks which don't currently exist and can't exist. Okay. I'm with you, but this is a different debate. We can have a whole debate whether that stuff needs to be decentralized or not. And we can, you're right, if it's decentralized, then yes, we need a decentralized money for a decentralized operation. This is a debate for a different topic whether all those things need to be decentralized. But I just wanted to point out that there is no technological barrier for micro payments in our current day to day life. I want to agree, but I also want to say that it's about the length of my relationship. How long should my relationship with the parking meter be? If my semi-autonomous apartment on wheels, which is constantly in motion, which is paying $4 for parking, it's moving on, it's paying $4 for parking somewhere else, it's in fact moving with the parking because parking is now on a wave. It's being priced the way they priced giants came. If the agent comes to town, parking goes up. So all of this needs to be how long is the parking meter going to wait to get paid? But when are we going to get the minutes? Not hours. The parking need needs money. I'm going to be gone. But again, there's no technological barrier because right now, most cost and length of relationship Bitcoin is instant. You don't need to trust anywhere. No, but again, I'm giving you an example. I pay for my cell phone internet instantly. They just deducted at the end of the month based on the aggregate buy. That's the difference. You pay for your cell phone monthly. I pay for Bitcoin instantly. Transfigured. But I'll move. But I'm going to agree with tone here. Yeah, sure, the timeframes are a little longer, but is that really huge innovation? Right. And we all have, and all the parking meters are becoming apps on your cell phone and they just deduct from a credit card that you have connected to your cell phone at like the end of the month of all. It's not a parking meter. Let's say I could rent a shovel and I could rent a shovel by the hour and we know how much damage I'm doing to the shovel and we know when we can replace this shovel so we can use it the most efficiently. Imagine the most efficient usage of the planet enabled by very small payments. Well, I mean, is that a huge demand there? I mean, like, there's no market for that as far as I know. I mean, you could go rent tools by the hour at home, people, but I mean, and this is also like saying that you need to get paid every by the minute from your employer instead of once every two weeks, right? I mean, my argument to that is if you need and I'm not sure that I needed a million songs in my pocket. I think I could have a million songs in my pocket and then I did and I did it for video and I think I'm doing it for money now and I don't think I'm going to stop for any like do we need it reason? Like do I need a million photos? No, of course not. You need a compelling reason to switch. I don't think there's no compelling reason to switch. Hey, guys, like I will say that if your micro payment is in line with censorship resistance and did my best example is I don't see how Netflix can go into the continent of Africa without Bitcoin. They there's just too much credit card fraud. I don't understand why they haven't adopted Bitcoin yet and Netflix so that a QR code pops up. And someone pays it and they watch the show. So that kind of use case I absolutely see but that use case is more for censorship resistance than it is for micro payments even though you would be buying your shows, you know, oh, this show isn't that popular so it only costs 20 cents. This show is more popular. It costs a dollar. Now there is a micro payment use case there but the priority is still we can enter, you know, a country with rampant credit card fraud and don't care and we can sell them our service. I think we need to develop a way of measuring time and I think that's what we're buying and that's what we're selling time. Let's move on to the exonimation. A long time ago I was going to prove micro payments to Jimmy Song so first of all I was going to do this. You could donate $20 or you could donate a Lambo worth of dollars. We'll check in that later on the show. Second of all we're going to ask the exit question. It's a forced answer. Yes or no. Can Bitcoin be a valuable store of value without micro payments? Tone vase. Yeah, absolutely. Gabriel, divine. Of course. Micro payments are a wonderful innovation that are going to enable. It's going to be a flood of invisible transactions. Running out of time. Yes or no, Jimmy Song. Absolutely. It already is. All right. And we've got 1,000 viewers which is good because we're moving on to issue four. It might even be a better store of value without micro payments. F2 pool, Renegs, Bitcoin pool, polls, Segwit, 2x support over the hard fork. That's right. You can say no if all the core developers do. You don't need to have the 2x part of the hard fork. What do you think? Gabriel, divine. Do we need the 2x hard fork? No. And we haven't needed a hard fork at all ever. The Bitcoin cash, B cash, hard fork was unnecessary and totally stupid and useless. And the Segwit 2x would also be totally useless. This is just a attempt to usurp power from a decentralized spread out network of devs that don't have that much allegiance to anyone in particular idea. They just choose to work on a project and donate their labor to something. And jerks that like to control other people don't like that. So they're trying to fight it. And either very naive or ill meaning corporations came together in New York and decided that they wanted X and Y. And when people that donate their labor to the project don't want to do that, they are like crying. And F2 pool sees the way the wind's blowing. So this is just a useless project. I don't know whether it'll happen or not. I was certainly wrong about a hard fork in August until they specifically announced B cash. So yeah, of course it's not necessary. It's bullshit. It's total bullshit. We may do a hard fork in 18 months or three years, five years. Jimmy Song, yes or no, 2x hard fork. Well, I'm up to minds about this. I think the people that signed the agreement, I think some of them at least will follow through. In that sense, the hard fork is inevitable. Whether or not it's good or bad for Bitcoin, I think I have definitely switched my mind on this. I see chaos and disorder as good for Bitcoin. If you look at the price of Bitcoin before the B cash hard fork, it was around 2700. The combined value of one B cash token and one Bitcoin token that's about 5400. So we doubled over the past month. Okay. That was a month ago, guys. 2700 a month ago. And now the combined is about 5455 hundred somewhere around there. So that tells you what you kind of need to know, which is that chaos and stuff like that. It correlates very well with Bitcoin price. So I kind of want the hard fork to come. In that sense, you'll have sort of communities that are competing with each other. And I think that's a good thing. Competition will bring out the best. Let the best coin win. I think that's okay. Tony Vays, chaos is good for Bitcoin. I'm going to go the other way. Go ahead Gabe, you want to get back in before I start? I was just going to say wow. It sounds like Daniel Coriwis convinced Jimmy. He didn't convince me. I think about a week after August 1st was when I was like, wow, this hard fork actually was good for Bitcoin. I don't know if you can really argue differently. Pretty much everything. Price sort of progress and development, all these other ways. It seems to have created something better. So I don't know. I go the other way here. I mean, this chaos has already caused me enough hair over the last six months. I really don't want to go through this again. But yeah, I know. Jimmy, you also have a unique skill of all of our followers. Love and everything you say. And then instantly flip it on you as what's happening right now once again. But anyway, now I go the other way here. I don't think chaos is good for Bitcoin. The reason why the price has gone up so far, so fast is because everyone was in this panic and fear mode. And instead of Bitcoin having, it's like slow and steady rise. We get these bursts of euphoria when we defeat the big blockers and then we have another. It gets overextended. It gets exhausted. It falls. It finds some equilibrium for slow advancement. And then again, we slow down because of controversy and then we go up again. So I'm not a fan of this. I think more. Why can't why you just said happen with 2x? Why can't why you just said happened with the Bitcoin cash? Why wouldn't that happen with 2x? Sort of like fear and tremble before and then like you for you. I know. I have survived it against itself. Cannot stand. I'm not saying that it's good, right? Like I would rather not have to deal with it, right? Like I really, like it's, I really appreciate it's something like Erickl and Burles, so said when he was on your show and when he said, I want Bitcoin development to be boring again. Look, I want Bitcoin price to be boring again, you know? As popular as my price analysis videos have been these days, Bitcoin has completely taken over my life over the last six to nine months or a year. And I would rather have the Bitcoin price be boring. I remember there was like a couple of videos that I've done and I literally said, nothing is going on in a price of Bitcoin. I was spending more time on like, you know, SMP 500 and oil that I was on Bitcoin because it was boring. I honestly want to go back to that. Like I'm not happy when all this chaos is happening and I would rather have Bitcoin price be boring and, you know, maybe explore some other hobbies in my life besides this. Like I'm not looking forward to more internal debates. I want to defeat this 2X hard fork and the sooner the better, I want more defectors and clearly Wayne Chung is playing that he's not a defector. He was only supporting it in order to get segued in, which was the theory from the beginning. A lot of them were signing it to save face. The only reason why I personally never said that publicly at the time because it's not really saving face is everyone is making fun of it. So I didn't want to endanger the saving face, you know, meme by making fun of them for it. I let them be. But now that it already happened, it's okay to say it. And more and more of them are going to realize that the moment they push for the 2X hard fork, the price will dip and then it will go back up. And I don't think it's going to happen. But even if I'm wrong, the blueprint is already here. B cash isn't going anywhere and 2X will have even a smaller push because they don't have, I mean, unless everyone, I mean, I think they lost. I mean, when B cash split, the B cash undermined no 2X. This shows you how these people are not very bright. If the 2 of them would have united together, this would have been a complete disaster for us. If the big blockers of B cash would only have been able to work together with the big blockers of 2X, they could have actually caused damage. But right now, B cash is slowly becoming irrelevant. And the more irrelevant B cash becomes, the less people are going to take no 2X seriously. And the more B cash stays relevant, the less of those same people will jump ship to 2X because they will be seen as hypocrites. Like there is absolutely no good thing. And this goes to show you how the smart people are coding Bitcoin and the fools continue to try and fight it. I mean, I'm on a loss for words and I'm insanely happy about that situation. I'll leave it there. There's no reason to stay on a sinking ship. If your company is supporting the 2X hard fork, you have to ask yourself, does your company have any technological morals? Are you going to do the right thing for your community? Or are you trying to kill the very project that brings you your money? Oh no, you'll have to update your application from Bitcoin to the Lightning Network. At least they'll be a Lightning Network. It's not just morals, right? Any company that's going to stick with the 2X hard fork, their technological expertise is going to be questioned. I mean, their CTO is going to be questioned. Does he even know how to code? Does he even understand Bitcoin? Well, I like not their morals, their technical expertise will be hugely questioned. You know study hard, bro. Exit question, will there be a 2X hard fork? Yes or no? Gabriel, Devon. Wow, Jimmy seemed really confident when he said it was going to happen. I'm going to say no. It's going to fall apart before they do it. And the B cash took its thunder. Jimmy saw. I definitely think it's going to happen. And I want to say that when Bitcoin is boring, it's usually like slowly dipping. It doesn't slowly rise. It does sudden rises and slow dips. Or sometimes it'll have sudden dips too. But that two or three year bear market, when it was really boring, I hated it. And I welcome chaos and disorder. I want some volatility. I think that's when Bitcoin sort of finds its footing and grows. It's like a hydra, right? Like any time you cut off one head to grows, and it just becomes this like incredible monster of strength and ferocity. I go for that. I love it, Jimmy. You sound just like me, actually. This is how I, this is with the things that I say about the drama. So this is fantastic, actually. But of course, during the show, someone did donate, they scanned this QR code and they gave me $5,000 for tone to shave his head. So now tone has to shave his head according to the chat. And if you believe that, he really, he really got a Bitcoin. No, if you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell yet. But I do have a lot of cash. Should tone get the $5,000 for tone shaving his head? So far, the $5,000 is only a rumor. We did get five euros from the super chat. Thanks for your support for tone shaving his head, which is now some kind of meme on Twitter. There's pictures of tone with a shaved head. Someone has chopped it. I can't believe it. So awful. But we do have podcasts for the World Crypto Network on SoundCloud and iTunes. All you do is search for it and download it. It's amazing. It's like the audio version of this show. And I want to thank everybody for giving us a thumbs up and a share. When you thumbs up a YouTube video, YouTube recommends it to other people. Then they show up and then they subscribe and they bring their friends. Wait, we've told him hasn't answered the exit question. I don't think he has. Yes or no. Tone days. I'm going to go yes only because I mean, there'll be enough defectors from the like like the no two ex sort of the two ex guys. I mean, I think the majority will not be interested, but there'll be enough, you know, crazy following Jeff Garzick and like, you know, Jeff Garzick will go off on his own and he'll fork it for maybe no other reason than to, you know, make a little extra decoy in by selling the thing. I don't know why, but I think it will happen. I think it will be significantly less relevant than the one we've already dealt with. And we've already had experience dealing with the first one. And I think for the next one, we're going to give it a lot less air time on the two ex fork like we have with the B cash. Speaking of shaving my head, I'm sure there will be a magic price of one Bitcoin that I will take a Bitcoin and shave my head on camera or have someone shave it for me. But I still I regret this one decision a year and a half ago in Mexico at the Anarchapurco conference, 20, not this year, but the year before someone offered me one Bitcoin to a Bungie jump off of the, they had a Bungie jump on the side of a bar in Accapoco, Mexico. This looks unreasonably clearly unsafe, but people were doing it. Somebody offered me one Bitcoin, we were drinking. So I was already like, I had a few. I was offered one Bitcoin to Bungie jump off of this thing. I did turn it down. Bitcoin was only $400 at the time. I'm starting to regret that decision right now. Sound money, sound money, that's what sound money does. Sound money and the end of the show we're moving on to predictions or story of the week. Gabriel D. Vind, do you have a prediction or a story of the week? My story of the week I think was some of the Hullabaloo around Peter Schiff, who is a longtime gold bug. Actually his father was an amazing figure in the gold community and sort of Austrian economics, very intelligent man. I think he passed away sadly, I just recently, I think, was about a year ago, maybe a couple of years. I think he's probably turning it into grave because of how naive and pig-headed Peter Schiff is being to the extent that I think that it's fake and that he is just chilling for his company that he realizes Bitcoin totally invalidates. Basically it's E-Gold. He's got a gold debit card and it's just basically all of his arguments about gold are, you know, you get to avoid the counterparty risk, but it's cool if my company is the counterparty. So there was a lot of Kyle Torpe did a great job rebutting him, but what I'd like to say about this is this is the last time I will ever mention that individual and we should all just ignore this person. He's just going to disappear into obscurity along with his pet rock, which I am actually bullish gold, but it's certainly not appropriate for the digital age as a money. And I remain bullish for pet rocks, Jimmy Song. Well, my story of the week is this, let's see if I can get it on there. This is programming blockchain, a series of seminars I am holding for Bitcoin perspective Bitcoin developers. I will teach them a lot of a lot. Honestly, the basics of Bitcoin, like transaction parsing and things like that. First seminar is next week in Austin. Another one will be in LA in early October. I also want to say that I will be speaking at breaking Bitcoin next weekend. So that's going to be a lot of fun in Paris. I would love to see you guys there. I don't know how many viewers are currently in Europe, but if you are in Europe and you are near Paris, then please come. So we can hang out. There's a lot of other really great speakers. Peter Todd, Elizabeth Stark, Jameson Lott, Eric Lombrozo. It's going to be a pretty killer lineup. So totally worth going to, totally worth spending. I think it's maybe 100 or 200 euros to go. So yeah, that's my story of them. And if you're in the Paris area and you're not going to make it to the convention, we'll probably have a meetup at a bar in the area after the show, one of the nights or maybe all of the nights of the convention. So check Twitter for that. Tone Vays, the story of the week or prediction. All right. Well, I'll briefly mention the price. So when I was calling the high, when I said it's going to be imminent, we were at 49.35 going to all time highs. I'm looking at a bit stamp right now, where the price has now fallen down to 48.76. So I really hope I didn't cause the price drop, which I don't believe that I did. So we'll see if my prediction for today, the high of today, being the high for the weekend, and then we pull back a little bit. My story of the week, as funny as this is about to sound, is actually the news. Those of the colleagues signing whatever has signed over in Russia to kind of build out a theorem for. Oh, Tony, you're muted. We lost your mic there, bro. Some must press the mention, mention Ethereum and lose your connection. That's just. I think you're disconnected, man. You're not muted. I heard a crash. I think your plug came out or something like that. Oh, okay. I'm kind of Windows, bro. Yeah, my mind. Sensor. The coin can spare this unfair. Yeah, my plug came out. Right. So no, my story of the week is actually whatever the hell it is, the Vitalik is doing with Russia. And I kind of speculated on this back when we talked about the story of Vitalik meeting Putin. And I was kind of have jokingly when I said, well, Vitalik wants to be friends with Putin, because he may have to pull a snout in. If a, either Ethereum collapses technologically or Ethereum collapses due to regulatory pressure, he's got a big problem. So everybody else left the project that started the project and the only one that remains is Vitalik. And I think for the last year, I mean, my, you know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the only logical answer here is Vitalik should have been looking for an exit plan out of Ethereum. He's not Satoshi. He's not anonymous. He can't just leave Ethereum because then he would be blamed for what happens to it after. So whatever he's planning on doing with Russia could be a way for him to get out of Ethereum one way or another, right? I mean, if he's going to build out a more centralized version of Ethereum for Russia, he can then step away from Ethereum. That seems like a reasonable gig to leave Ethereum for. And that would completely give him nice immunity from any future regulatory pressure coming down from the US if you are actually helping build something for the US government that is obviously going to be centralized. So I think this is actually a serious story. I recommend people keep up with it because that's what I see. I see Vitalik pulling a Dan Larimer and leaving the project to the community. Again, I don't want to start rumors, but this is what makes sense to me ever since he started, you know, doing more work with Russia. Spoiler alert, Vitalik Booterin leaves Ethereum to go home to his home planet. And this QR code still doesn't seem to work. Must be broken. Something wrong with Bitcoin today, but I'll just put that there. You can pause it for later. Just like to thank everybody for watching, giving us a thumbs up and a share. I've got two stories of the week this week. First of all, I was very much entertained and perhaps even enlightened by watching Chris DeRose with Richard Hart today over on the Richard Hart channel, H-E-A-R-T. They talked about Bitcoin and philosophy and is there free will and what you should do with your life. And it was kind of a part two to their previous conversation where it was kind of two rich guys who don't have anything to do anymore decide that they should do more than play video games, which I thought was a good base to build on. And now they're branching out. So I would say check that out. My other story of the week is what Jimmy said. I'm going to be at the Breaking Bitcoin Convention in Paris in about a week. I'm going to be flying on an airplane for eight hours, then three and a half hours with a two over lay out, two hour layover in Iceland on Thursday. It's crazy. I'm going to be in Paris. Jimmy says he has a hotel room in Paris, but I hope to meet everybody in Paris. Maybe find more couches there. Then I'm going to Essen, Germany. I've got another Bitcoin convention at the blockchain hotel. I hope to meet cool people there. Maybe you stay with Jason King from Unx. I'll be there as well. I'm going to be there. You can stay on Tone's floor. It's already working out for me. Then we've got the hacker congress in Prague at Polinesi, Paris. I'm going to say everything wrong. But it's all happening. Jimmy's going to be there. Tone's going to be there. Maybe even Gabe will be there as I travel through Europe, but we're running out of time. We've got to start packing bags and unpacking Amazon stuff. I want to put this code up one more time. If you do send us one round Bitcoin, we'll know it's for the Tone Bitcoin hair-saving club donation kit. We'll mark this time down as Friday, September 1st at 2.22 PM. If you want to send a Bitcoin, we'll put that down. Thanks so much for watching. We're out of time. Subscribe now. We've got the vortex on Sunday with a Bitcoin news around noon, Pacific time. We'll be back tomorrow with today in Bitcoin tomorrow morning. Until next time. Bye. Bye. Bye guys.