The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Jimmy Song, Bitcoin developer. Hi everybody, good to be here. Tom Vays from Liberty Life Trail. Hi everyone, sorry, no, I was having technical issues. That's a computer, what you call a computer. Let's go to Jeffrey Jones from the Bitcoin News Show. Hello all, welcome to the show, happy to have you. It's that responsiveness on the mouse clicking. You just got to be click, click, click. I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one, issue one, and bleed. A website called antbleed.com launched this week, warning of a back door in Bitmain's firmware that could be used to remotely shut off the miner. As the realization spread that this back door could affect 70% of Bitcoin mining, panic spread throughout the Bitcoin community, demanding firmware updates and other fixes to remove this back door. Bitmain announced that the back door was a feature to shut down the miners in case they were stolen. Jimmy Song, your thoughts on this dramatic development. Yeah, so I did take a look at their open source code, which is odd, right? If they were intending to be a back door that they were going to exploit to have the code actually be open source with the kind of against the point. I read through the code, it's extremely obvious what's going on. There's a variable called stop mining. There's a log entry that says stop mining exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. Extremely obvious. Like to anybody that reads code, it's very easy to find it. The shocker is that this code has been around for six months and it's just getting publicity now, which is kind of strange to me. Anyway, my take on this is I'm going to use Hanlon's razor, never a tribute to Malice, that which can be explained by incompetence. I believe this was a little bit of incompetence there. They just forgot to delete this code or never finish the feature or whatever. I don't think this is going to disinfect anything. It's a lot like people like during an iPhone shortage, griping about some feature of iPhones right now. Mining equipment is extremely valuable. It's very profitable. Mineers are desperate for this equipment and they already trust bitmain already. Those that don't like bitmain already, they're going to continue hating bitmain anyway. Really, it only affects potential buyers. Because of the shortage of mining equipment, they can't really afford to be picky. I don't think it affects anything. It's kind of a terrible thing to have something remotely shut down. I haven't heard of anybody actually getting shut down this way. They've already packed the code in their open source repost. To me, it's just sort of a... Is it possible that this is just some of the future getting to us early? Will all cars come with this feature? Do you think that any large piece of electronics that's $5,000, $10,000, maybe $50,000 should come with a shut off switch? Is this not unreasonable? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. But I'll point out pretty much every electronics thing that you buy, you have to trust in manufacturer to a large degree. Because you have no idea what firmware is loaded on there. You have no idea what chips are in there that can record your stuff or do a phone home signal or whatever. That's just part and parcel of any hardware. Unless you make microscopes and you can examine every circuit in there, you have to trust somebody. And this is not a problem that's easily solvable. Yeah, so I mean, it's an unfortunate reality, but one that we have to live with for now. You gotta trust somebody. I just like to thank our 108 live viewers. If everyone could give us a thumbs up and a share, that would help us out. Let's go to tone Vaze. Hey Jimmy, why don't you go on mute it? Because I have a couple of questions for you since you brought it up. Hey, so I mean, I've never been a minor and the last thing I ever want to do is look at code. That's where I tell people like I study that I used to code. I have a geneering, but I hate it code. Anytime on my Wall Street job, you know, my boss has got on me to be a better developer. I just left that job for another job. So so the code was open source and this could have been discovered immediately, but you saying no one really cared to look. Why do you think that is? Well, I mean, there was an issue, I'll open in that repo that said, hey, why is every, why is this pinging this, you know, weird URL? Why is it phoning home? Nobody really answered it. What was that? What was that? What was that? What was the post? I can, I can, let's see, no ballpark, ballpark, like how long was one year right, Jimmy? What's that? It was one year, right, Jimmy? Yeah, it's it says here September 19, 2016. So it was about eight months ago, something like that. I can hear. I mean, post, yeah, I'm not sure if they're going to be watching the ports coming off of this machine and they're going to see it pinging things. It just doesn't seem like anyone stepped into immediately block it where they didn't know what it was doing, but they didn't necessarily block it right away either. Yeah, I mean, anyone reading the code in any depth at all would have figured it out. It's because it says stop mining. That's the name of the variable, right? And it's a Boolean. If it's true, it literally stops mining. So it's very easy to see. There's nothing really like nefarious about it in that sense. But I mean, it was later on that we could search for stop mining next time. Or any log log entries that say stop mining. Yeah. Right. Well, in that case, well, I actually thought that this should that this stuff was close source. I mean, I that's why another reason why I like to do the show, like I'm a catch up on the news and also learn new stuff. So thanks for that infogyny. So my view on it is I'm glad that people didn't panic and sold Bitcoin. The old coin. Here's how I look at these things, right? Bitcoin is so far heading shoulders above all of these other alternatives from the development from the user base from security on all aspects. And if something like this is going unnoticed in Bitcoin for nine months, this gives me even more confidence that Bitcoin will be the one and only blockchain for value transfer in the future. Well, I like incidents like this, give me more and more confidence. So that's one thing. The other thing it again adds more clarity as to why Roger Vier and she Han Wu were so certain that they can get Bitcoin unlimited as the dominant chain. And with each of these, you know, I mean, the reason why I was named and pleated people are like, well, why is it called am pleated? Well, because it's like another stab at a bit main and their ant miners. So again, it's another no shot across the bow towards them showing the world that they're not going to be able to control because people are being educated and people are starting to look at, you know, they're starting to turn over every rock and in order to their bit main, like when when bit main was, you know, ending with the Bitcoin community, no one really looked into them. No one looked into, you know, their past, no one analyzed every tweet, an employee sent, no one, you know, through all of these Chinese chats looking to translate every syllable. Now that they're pissing off the majority of the Bitcoin community, people are fighting back and the best way they can fight back is like what WikiLeaks does. Now people still seem to attack the messenger. I mean, if you're a BU supporter, you're going to attack the messenger. It was always like, oh, blame dragons then for releasing the information. You got to be shit me, right? Like it's a dragon dance fault for building a website because publications didn't feel like publishing the article to break the news because it was a little speculatory. Complaining, oh, how come they didn't get released right away? How come some people knew ahead of time? They should need it to be checked, the information needed to be verified and it needed to be presented in a real matter, just like Blah Gregory Maxwell taught about the problem of basic boost and then told it to the world with a solution. Same thing here. It wasn't just randomly thrown out there. It was thrown out there with a solution that can remove this feature. And these are the kinds of things responsible people do in order not to have the markets panic. This is the opposite of what Bitcoin unlimited does, releases code with memory leaks and no testing. So, I don't think this is as much of a positive as basic boost was, but this is definitely not a negative and it only shows you that there are still some smart, diligent people in Bitcoin trying to shed light on shady practices. Jeffrey Jones, your thoughts on Ant Bleed? Well, it seems there really is never a dull moment in crypto folks. This is yet another fun hashtag that we can all play around with from basic boost to Ant Bleed. But it just kind of shows to me the way I see it at this point is that it really is more incompetence and negligence on Bitmain's part than Malice. Right? You know, I have to kind of agree with Jimmy on that where this is, if it was actually planned it wouldn't have been such a plain sight, right? Like the code says the variable name, but still again, you know, we expect more from Bitmain. We expect more from their security audits. We expect more from the company itself. And you know, and to the tone's point, you know, people have to understand that, look, yes, then it was released on a domain, you know, Ant Bleed.com with a domain, but it was really, it wasn't just news. They have released a solution with it. That's really important to remember, you know, they didn't just say, hey, they just didn't just cry wolf guess what? Here's how to fix it too. And then somebody released some code right immediately on Twitter like how to actually test to see if your minor will go offline here, just run this script real quick and to test and yep, shut off your minor, all right? So this is real deal and this is diligent people doing their thing, you know, and remember, no one actually got shut down, you know, this is another temporary kind of crazy thing in Bitcoin. Of course, everybody's going to blow up, blow it up and blow up the, you know, Bitcoin's died enough times as it is, right? So of course, this is going to be something else that they're going to blow up and point to and say, man, see, there it goes. It's dead. And, but hey, it definitely freaked me out. Obviously right away when I first heard about the news, 70% of the hash rate come on. I mean, my God, that was, that was a little bit, I was a little taken back. That was a little scary. But as we see, you know, nobody got shut down, everybody's patched, everything is fine. So, you know, that's, that's, that's good. We're all good. There's nothing really to worry about. You know, again, Bitcoin doesn't exist in a vacuum. You know, as Tone said, this kind of stuff is, is going to be discovered. And it's going to be a great example of Bitcoin's resilience, you know, big, uh, Bitcoin's anti-fragility. You cannot shut, shut this thing down and you cannot control this thing no matter how much you try, no matter if you're G-Hon or what, you know, you cannot, uh, control this stuff. And this is just great news. I, I see it as a positive as well, net positive. It does seem like the work of Bitcoin core, releasing a fix, describing the code, acting responsibly. You just hate to see that. Exit question, should all Bitcoin miners be open source? Is this even possible without exposing for back lack of a better word, their secret sauce? Jimmy saw him. Yeah. So, I did a deep dive on sort of minor manufacturing recently in an article that I wrote a couple of, I think it was last week. Anyway, um, you could try to open source chip design, but that's not really done. And the reason why is because chip design is hugely profitable. It's highly patented. These are some of the strongest patents that you can own, uh, is chip design patents because if you, if you copy it, courts will come after you and they will, of course, these patents are an extremely high barrier to entry, just, uh, just, you know, like chip design to tape out, which is at, at which point you can actually print the chips. That's, uh, that's about 20 million dollars per an ASIC, um, or like it, depending, depending on how many engineers you hire, um, I, I happen to have some friends in this, uh, in this, uh, industry. They say it's around 600,000 per engineer per year, which is an insane amount because not only do you have to pay their salaries, you have to get them all these tools that are very, very expensive. So, um, trying to do that from an open source perspective, I really don't think it's going to happen. And, uh, and you gotta remember, this is extremely easy to get wrong. Like, if you, if you make a design flaw, you know, if you do something that screws up the chip, like your, your whole batch is ruined. And there's a reason why there's so many bankrupt mining companies, right? Remember, butterfly labs, coin, terra, Tancy miners, fondoules, tech, all in the graveyard of, you know, mining companies. Uh, there's a reason for that. It's, it's extremely hard to do. And, uh, and in a sense, like they could, they made, you gotta get props to them. They figured out this formula and they have some really good chip designers. They have some, they have some great relationships with the chip fans. They know how to do the manufacturing. They, they, they've got the PCB board and everything else designed correctly. That's, that's really hard to do. I would love to see more competition. Um, and I, I, I love the fact that Tainan, uh, you know, they're, they're trying to wrap up their production and things like that. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I don't, I really don't see an open source, um, you know, version of anything like this without somebody like, uh, somebody pouring in like a hundred million dollars per fee. That's too bad. I still think some of those mining companies are cool. And I am waiting for my butterfly labs in the mail, tone, vase. Uh, I mean, I'm gonna have to second Jimmy here. He's a bigger expert at this than I am. Uh, I, I, I don't have the expertise to answer the question. In nice to see some more competition, obviously, uh, maybe it would be nice for, uh, bit fury to sell more of their chips, you know, ramp up their manufacturing and, uh, but they're not in China. It probably caused them more. Uh, and China is doing better. Uh, it, it kind of sucks that, um, oh, many, uh, we'll get the cloud mining in a, in our next story, I think, or the, or the third story. So I'll, I'll continue the discussion there, but it kind of sucks when you have like a cloud miner, like maybe, uh, a bit club, uh, and I think like, bit clubs started buying some, uh, chips from a bit fury, but I don't know if they actually did or not. I know they were going to, but if, if they never did, then they, they have a pretty big operation and it's all, uh, bit main chips. And now you have, you know, a cloud miner that basically will, you know, if, if Gihon and bit main tells this cloud miner to jump, they're just going to say how high because, uh, bit main becomes in full control. You can just turn off your chips and then a bit club becomes a Ponzi scheme. Immediately, they have no choice, but to obey whatever Gihon says. And that is something I worry about. Uh, and I don't know how, I don't have a solution for this problem, but I think that's a problem. I think it's less of a problem for an individual miner because an individual miner can say and he may choose, you know, to kind of do something with his machine, but when you have, uh, an entire cloud mining operation depending on it and they're basically responsible for whether they are aren't the Ponzi. Uh, and it's debatable if bit club is already a Ponzi, but if they're not a Ponzi, they would become one if, if someone has the power to tell them what to do, which is, uh, which is an unfortunate situation. And I don't know how we can, um, alleviate this in the future. I, I don't have a solution for it. I can give you a solution to the Bitcoin mining centralization problem in just seven letters, AMD, Intel, Jeffrey Jones. Not to be nice. Well, yeah, I mean, I really wish that everything could be open source. I wish that all the miners could be open source, all the software could be open source and then they could maybe just, you know, compete at the fab level or something. I mean, I just wish that, uh, you know, that could happen. But unfortunately, we're not in an area yet. We're an era yet where we have trusted hardware, right? This is the kind of stuff that Bitcoin is going to usher in, much more trusted hardware and, and stuff because we're going to need it when money is on the line, you know, and I really wish, really wish there was more competition. But as Jimmy said, I mean, right now Bitmain's got it kind of figured out the most, but, you know, as, as Thomas, you pointed out, I mean, this is not going to be like this forever. There's just too much money. And we're right now. We're just little small, you know, where it's a small, little $20 billion network. So, you know, of course, there's going to be some centralization in the parts where that we're going to be always centralize the most, which is, you know, chip, chip fab manufacturing. And so it's, it's only a temporary problem because when, when bigger players start seeing this and bigger players start getting in the game, they're going to want a piece of pie. Bitmain is making extremely profitable miners right now. Like they, they have their markup is like what? I don't know if you know, Jimmy, but it's got to be like 200% I mean, they were, they were really, they're really making currently a lot of profit on their miners. And so other competition. The ultimate material for a $1200. Just so you know, yeah. Yeah. And so they're going to have competition step in at some point. And so again, this is just a, you know, another probably overblown thing for Bitcoin that will just be a temporary problem that will just solve very soon. And the next few years as everybody in the world pretty much jumps into Bitcoin. It's an excellent point, Jeff, that trusted hardware, improving your personal security, all of these things have been suggested and talked about for years. But it's something like Bitcoin that's actually going to make us force us to do it. We're going to need to store our private keys into that trusted hardware section. We're going to need encryption. We're going to need no one watching our computers because they could steal our money. It's much more important than our photos or our emails ever were. Let's move on to the next issue. Issued to Bitcoin and Ethereum all time highs. Perhaps caused by the global economic uncertainty, the second place finished of marine lapen, the election of Donald Trump or plain old Brexit. The price of Bitcoin and Ethereum continue to rise, unaffected by even the wildest scaling drama. Tone vase is this it is Bitcoin and perhaps Ethereum about to begin a parabolic rise. Well, Ethereum has been in an exponential rise for a little while now. I mean, I personally think that old coins are in a bubble. All old coins plus the ICOs. I think they're all in a massive bubble and leading that bubble because it does have a it's getting to be a pretty big market cap. How high can Ethereum go? Nobody does. These things always last longer than people expect and they always collapse at the worst possible time and faster. Pull expect. OK. So we talked about earlier people like in the traditional markets like to say, well, the market can stay irrational longer than most people stay liquid. Now in the crypto space, it's not very easy to short these things and you have to be crazy to short them. So yeah, it will definitely stay irrational longer than it will stay liquid in my in our personal case, because everyone on this show has always been anti Ethereum because we saw it for where it was. The term that I want to start using is a market like Ethereum will stay irrational, perhaps longer than many of us on the world crypto network can stay sane in dealing with it. That's kind of my view on it. I mean, to me, Ethereum was always an illegal sale of a security before the security even existed. I was always against the theorem from the presale. I was against the theory at the launch a year later. And I still think Ethereum is a the argument on one of these shows here on the world crypto network. I made the argument that Ethereum was actually worse than one coin. And I'm not going to elaborate. I'm not here. But when it's all said and done, and Ethereum completely implodes because it is a perpetual motion machine, which when it goes proof of stake and it'll probably fork again, and it's basically a platform for anyone to scam unqualified investors with their ICOs. Well, like everything is bad of all the bad things people used to say about Bitcoin. Ethereum is all that times two or times 10. Now, of course, those bad things and that are being a good thing for Bitcoin, I don't think a good thing for Ethereum. And as far as that specific article from TechCrunch is concerned, it was clearly clearly written by someone who doesn't understand crypto all that well. And he was just like throwing out every little thing he's ever heard of and try to come up with a reason to need kind of reads like a C article, like the stock market is up a few points. And they have to come up with a reason why. And if the stock market was down a few points, that would probably also be the same reason why. It was just basically the article was kind of useless. Yeah, that's about it. And yeah, Ethereum could go higher, but it's it's going to end poorly. It's going to end Ethereum itself will end kind of like the Dow ended because it's being programmed by pretty much the same people. I mean, it's pretty much the same thinking that put it all together. Yeah, you can get rich if you get out on time, but you got to remember, I mean, like, most people don't get out on time. And most people get hurt really, really badly. The only question that would remain is when the old coin bubble pops. Is it is all the money you're going to get transferred to Bitcoin or is the old coin bubble going to pop because all of crypto space would take a hit. And then Bitcoin would only fall 25 to 30% while the old coins fall 90 to 95%. And Bitcoin has fallen in price 75 to 90% three times. So this would be totally normal for all of these old for the old coin bubble to fall 90%. The only thing is like will it cause a Bitcoin bubble as it crashes or will Bitcoin also take a hit, but it will be a much smaller hit because of Bitcoin's foundation. Ton, what would you say to the idea that Ethereum is kind of like the Microsoft bank IBM version of Bitcoin? It's this year's blockchain. It's this year or separate blockchain, whatever distributed ledger tech. Would you say that this is something they can get behind because they don't want to get behind Bitcoin? They're already getting behind it with banks signing up for it. But I was just notified today that JP Morgan has left R3. Maybe that should be my new story of the week. I haven't like fact checked the news, but someone like on LinkedIn told me about it this morning. And yeah, so banks have realized that R3 is totally useless. And but you know, they they convinced the banks that they need a blockchain department. So now they're moving on to the next stupid idea, which is Ethereum. And they'll leave that one, you know, it's it's it's not. I mean, these banks have really, really smart developers. They really, really I've worked with some of these developers, some of the smartest people I've ever met in my life. When they get down to the bottom of it and they don't know what they don't know. They're looking at garbage. It's just look at it. Jeffrey Jones, your thoughts on the all time highs. Well, you know, we're getting all time highs on all sorts of things right now. Really, it's I see this as kind of a bit of a short term bubble. But you know, this is all these coins are going to go. I mean, all this whole crypto market, right, is going to go. It's going to rise. It's going to get higher and higher in the next couple of years. I mean, when you when you look at 2020, I mean, is like going to be worth more than it is now. Yes, is Bitcoin going to be worth more than it is now? Yes, is Ethereum probably? I mean, you look at these coins. Right now at this point, you know, I see a few of these coins sticking around for a couple of years. And they're going to basically kind of piggyback off of Bitcoin. And they're going to create all these all this this huge network, you know, because remember, all these ICOs are are. Yeah, you have to buy them with Bitcoin. And you know, it's providing a yet it's providing another use case for Bitcoin. So I see a few of these coins sticking around for a couple of years. Beyond that, it's anybody's guess. But you know, these coins are going to rise with Bitcoin. So, you know, I'm starting to think that Ethereum is possibly a theorem could be the KYC coin or the corporate coin. You know, because as tone said, banks are liking it. You know, and there's more money being poured into it. And really, the developers have been captivated. There's been there's all these developers that have been captivated by Ethereum. Kind of like how they saw Facebook in the early days. Like this, this ability to just affect change at this mass huge level. And so, you know, there's no apps yet. We don't see anything useful yet from Ethereum except for facilitating these ICOs. You know, but because of these ICOs, I mean, we're getting ICOs that are going $300 million, selling out $300 million in 10 minutes. I mean, that's that's crazy. Of course, that's a bit of a bubble, right? I mean, that's that's not sustainable forever and everybody can. Wait, which one are you talking about the GNOS's one? Yeah. You know, they only sell like 12 million, right? I'm saying that right. You see, these people are doing millions and millions of dollars in 10 minutes, right? And so, this is not, this is going to, people are going to, they're going to see this, they're going to see this goal being mined, they're going to go try to get the goal, right? So, the ICOs are going to be around probably for this year, but this is not sustainable. What did you say, don't do? But this is why that, how do you pronounce that? Is it GNOS's? How do you pronounce that? I think it's GNOS's, actually, like GNOS's, like K. They're, I see that I keep thinking of, you know, like the Star Wars and those bug, that bug plan. And maybe that's where they got the idea. But, you know, this is why they're a scam because they only sold 12 million, because they only sold 5%, but they value the entire thing. So, they get to sit on, you know, the other 290 million, which they obviously can't sell. I mean, this is ridiculous. And this is why they can only sell these things to, you know, people at their computers that don't know anything about investing. Right, but remember, they are going to solve, there's so many, so many of these coins, you know, there's only going to be a few that survive, right? But right now we're in this ICO kind of bubble where everybody is trying to create an ICO, and those are going to continue selling out for a little while. But, you know, and they're all going to be built over Ethereum and Ethereum Classic. Now, I don't know if you guys heard, but Ethereum Classic is now wanting to get into the ICO business. They're just, they just released a couple tweets about trying to release some ICOs over them because they see all the money that Ethereum is making out. I think they're in the classic ones to get down on. Yeah, by the way, I can't wait for some of these ICOs that have already launched to say, well, for the four diversification reasons, we're going to launch again on Ethereum Classic this time. So, Nosis can actually do this again on Ethereum Classic and double their value. So, there's that, right? So, there's that. But, like I said, I don't see this crazy thing called altcoins going away anytime soon. They're going to continue doing interesting things. And remember, you know, in anything that's super interesting, like, for example, privacy, right, these privacy-focused coins, that's going to come to Bitcoin. You know, that's going to definitely be tried out on ICO and then eventually come to Bitcoin. So, these altcoins will continue experimenting, and that's great. We really need them too. But in the end, you know, I mean, I don't want to call them test nets, but come on, right? Everything is traded into Bitcoin. Litecoin makes an amazing test net. This is absolutely great while watching SegWit get activated on Litecoin. I'm really excited about that. And then I'm excited about Lightning that we're coming to it. And it's going to be great. So, you know, I don't see these altcoins going anywhere soon. These top tier altcoins are going to be here for a couple of years as they piggyback off of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is going nowhere. And right now, the markets are getting insane. The OTC markets are 10X, at least, what's going on with these exchanges. They're, I hear from people in France, people in Zababway, you know, Adam Meister just did a show about these people, and they're telling us that there is a shortage. There is a Bitcoin shortage. People cannot get enough of Bitcoin right now. And this is, this is going to be how it is going to be for the next couple of years, until the technology can catch up to the demand, because we're, the demand is about to outpace the technology. And it's going to be a great thing. Jimmy Song, do we have a Bitcoin shortage and an all-time high? Yeah. So, as you guys might know, this, this, the company that I work for, it bit over here. So, house rules, I don't, I don't really want people to know how much I'm like, how many Bitcoin's I have, I work and stuff like that. So, I've been trying to open an account at Gemini, right? Like, they're a competitor, but if I, if I want to do any transactions in Bitcoin, I'm going to have to open an account there. I started the process like a month ago, and they gave me an email, said, well, you know, you should be confirmed within three days, and we try to do most of it in the first 24 hours. They still have now confirmed me, and I found that recently that this is because there's such a huge number of people trying to come into Gemini right now, that they have a huge backlog of users that are trying to get in, and they, they, they can process these fast enough, right? Like, and they, they have very strict KYC requirements or whatever. So, they, they have a lot of paperwork that needs to be validated and all that stuff. So, that to me is either a sign of incompetence or a sign of huge demand. I tend to think that it's the latter. There's a huge influx of users that's a rise in price right now, and you Gemini obviously trades Ethereum as well. And I can't really comment on Ethereum intelligently because I don't really know their codebase very well, and I haven't studied it very much. But, but you know, the, the, the sign seemed like there's a lot of demand coming in, there's a lot of new users coming in, there's maybe a lot of institutional investors that are coming in. And that is probably what's causing the rise in price. Let's move on to the exit question. Tones, Will Ethereum continue to keep pace with Bitcoin. Does a rising tide lift all boats? Still muted and disappeared. Let's go to Jeffrey Jones while I see if we can get Tones back. It's like, look, I mean, people are looking for a place to put their wealth, man. People are looking for a place to put their money. We have financial chaos happening all over the world. The debt is insane. We have negative interest rates, right? We have, we have companies or companies, countries like Venezuela and situations like down there are just absolutely terrible. We have the elimination of cash. We have, we have all of this crazy stuff, you know, and we need to put our wealth somewhere. So there is going to be an increased demand for these all coins and for Bitcoin, and they're all going to rise together. And it's going to be a free market. So the ones that are actually doing something good are the ones that's going to stick around. Ethereum doesn't hold up in the market if people think that the market, the market thinks that Ethereum only does ICO scams and that's all it's good for. Then eventually it'll pit it out. But if you can do other things with it and other apps come out, well, then it'll be, it'll have value. But, but the important thing to remember is that, you know, we need to put our money somewhere and there's going to be increased demand. So I don't see, you know, things like, you know, Bitcoin and Ethereum and Litecoin. I don't see their prices going down. If you ask me what they're going to be in two years, they're all going to be higher. Jimmy Song does a rising tide lift all boats. Sure answer is yes. It seems to be a pattern whenever Bitcoin rises in price, all the other also rising price. But as Kone mentioned earlier, when Bitcoin falls, let's face it, we're going to have ups and downs in the future. And you know, coins from like three years ago, you know, anyone remember Primecoin or, you know, Freycoin or Kerakoy or all these coins that like, you know, nobody remembers anymore. Well, they they were sort of considered the same as, you know, a lot of these coins today. So I mean, Litecoin stuck around for a good reason. You know, they, you know, there's a, you know, they're the first one with script and things like that. Who knows what will happen? I don't claim to know the future, but I have seen this pattern before and I believe most of these all a lot of them will probably be gone in a couple of weeks to have life of all coins is generally fairly short. But there are some that survive and the ones that survive actually have use. So Litecoin will rise to $50 as soon as it is posted on Mt. Gox with a new Midas trade engine. Let's see, you bounced off and on twice. Tone Vays, are you with us? I don't think so. Looks like some kind of novel. You don't know. All right. I think I think you can hear us. Okay. Can you guys hear me? I just got back on. Well, let's keep pace with Bitcoin. All right. Tone Vays may or may not be with us. We're going to go to the exit question. No. All right. Can you guys hear me? Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm back. I'm back. All right. Will Ethereum continue to keep pace with Bitcoin? Does a rising tide lift all boats? All right. Well, I think Ethereum for the short term on making pace with Bitcoin. But I don't think a rising tide lift all boats because like lately the correlation has been. I know I lost video just now because my app crashed. But can you guys still hear me? Yes. We can still hear you. It's an impressive Microsoft product. I know. And can you guys see me or no? Yes, we can see you, but we like talking about it. It gets so meta. Anyway, so lately I've seen an inverse correlation when Bitcoin would go down things like Ethereum and Dash would go up. But Litecoin has been fairly correlated with Bitcoin because they both pretty much depend on segment. And the moment the tide is kind of lifting all boats, but I don't think that's going to last. Ethereum can go up faster than Bitcoin for the short term. Will percent correction. I mean, it's just the way markets work. And Amazon has got infinitely more problems than Bitcoin does, even though we all know of Bitcoin problems. So I don't expect it to pace with Bitcoin for very long. So that's pretty much it. I'll leave it for the exit question. I also think it's worth recounting a story from the great depression. Someone once said, how did you go broke, Mr. Rockefeller? And he was like, at first, slowly and then all at once. Moving on to issue three issue three Bitcoin.com cloud mining, pivoting to avoid the Bitcoin unlimited project crashing down around him. Roger Vier and Bitcoin.com have begun offering cloud mining. Despite Rogers formerly held public views against both investing in Bitcoin mining and investing in Bitcoin cloud mining has Bitcoin.com left no sense of decency. Or are they just building out the site in an obvious and consumer fashion? I ask you, Jeffrey Jones. Oh, sorry. What was the? I didn't know it was going first. Bitcoin.com cloud mining. Oh, God. Is it no good? Or is it just a consumer thing to do like adding a shop selling cloud mining? Okay. Seriously, guys, cloud mining. I mean, Roger cloud mining. I mean, come on. You were just disowness a couple of years ago. There is no return on investment in cloud mining. I've never heard of anybody actually turning a profit, except for the damn companies that are offering the service. Right. Those are the people that are actually making the money. Those are the people selling the shovels. Those are the people making the money. And so no, this cloud mining thing is absolutely crazy. Maybe Rogers going broke and he needs some money. I don't know why the heck he's launching this cloud mining service on Bitcoin. But it could very well be that, remember, they want to start an exchange. They have Bitcoin.com. And now they want to start a cloud mining service. I mean, it sounds like to me that maybe they want to be taking control of Bitcoin. Who knows? They have this agenda that they want to put Bitcoin unlimited through. So this cloud mining thing, I do not approve. There's just no way this is a good idea. People are not going to make money. This could actually end up potentially negatively affecting Bitcoin when people all try to buy it and realize they're not making money because cloud mining does not make money. So this is kind of a crazy thing. I know I'm going to let the rest of the panelists comment because everybody is going to say it's going to agree. This is crazy. Not a good idea. It does seem like Bitcoin.com is going to make a lot of money off this. Maybe they should put out a public service announcement warning their people. Jimmy saw. Yeah. So we talked earlier about how you have to trust the mining equipment manufacturer to some degree because you don't know what the chips are doing inside. I think it's just taking that trust to get the idea of what equipment they're running. You have no idea what you own. I guess nominally some terror hashes per second or something like that. But it's hard to verify anything. It's a little confusing to me because he put in his little ad in the tweet that he posted that 100% guaranteed uptime and consistent hash rate. My question to him was how do you guarantee something like that? Even like Amazon web services, they don't guarantee 100% uptime. There's no way you could do that with miners. How do you guarantee consistent hash rate? Do you have backup? Like one down that are not online? Who knows? How do you give them the benefit of the that? Maybe he's figured out a different business. I will say this though. My name is very profitable right now. Like that electricity cost is something like 17% of the actual mining cost. There's certainly a lot of different ways in which you can make money. I could see this business potentially being profitable, but it just requires so much trust in the people that you're dealing with. There aren't that many cloud mining operations. It is successful. I can see it becoming a real estate investment trust or something like that. You need more regulation around it and some verification that they actually have the hash power that they say they have and that they have committed to reinvesting some of the profits to getting more miners or something. Like Jeffree said, there hasn't been one that's not been a scam. My tendency is to say, you got to prove yourself before I would invest in it. If you're going to guarantee 100% uptime, you're definitely not going to be running Bitcoin unlimited. Personally, I would only go with a company that would guarantee 110% uptime. There does seem to be a lot of trust for a libertarian enterprise. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for giving us a thumbs up. We just broke 295 for a second there. We had 300 viewers. I'm going to give it over to Tone Vays. Maybe you guys can give us more thumbs up and shares and we'll get back over that 300 mark just for Tone, who may or may not have a good connection to talk about cloud mining. Go ahead, Tone. What about Bitcoin.com cloud mining? Can everyone hear Tone? It's not a connection. My internet is fine. It's my hardware, which is a bit problematic. But anyway, I will be updating my hardware when Microsoft gets its shit together. But anyway, I'm back to the topic. This is insane. This is insane. I don't even know where to start. Let's start with Roger Weir's tweets out that he's going to do cloud mining in the future. Here are our four plans. This one is most popular. How do I help you have a most popular plan that isn't yet for sale? I don't know if you guys saw that. That's just marketing. It's just a Photoshop. I know. It's just like the whole thing. It should tell you what bullshit this is. I was going to share screen, but I'm scared to at the moment. I was present when Roger Weir debated Joby Weeks of BitClub about how the borderline scammy cloud mining is. Here he is one year later creating a cloud mining company. Next, here's the other problem. Championing how evil Bitcoin core is and how they are hijacked. Here is Roger Weir, who has come and is basically responsible for the developers of Bitcoin.com like their CTO or whatever. There are developers to get the cloud mining up and running. The people responsible for the cloud mining are a combination of Bitcoin.com's developers and Bitcoin unlimited developers. That already tells you that it's going to be buggy as hell. But just look at it from another perspective. You have a person that is clearly connected to a maker in BitMain. He owns the media. He basically controls Bitcoin unlimited development, which he wants to become core development. Cloud mining. He's one of the biggest investors in or maybe not the biggest investor. I know he's an investor in the most popular wallet, which I think is the worst wallet, but it's the most popular wallet because of all the media hype. Blockchain.info. Can you just name a mutualized version of Bitcoin? Didn't Roger Weir right now. Now that he just got involved with Bitcoin core development and not core development, but Bitcoin development. If you know what I mean with a competing team and mining and running cloud mining, this is insane. This is absolutely insane. I reach check and balance that Bitcoin can possibly have to window. Why would a responsible developer, core developer, Bitcoin unlimited developer? Why would this person want to even be involved in mining? How is that not the biggest conflict of interest in the world? So there's just so much stupid in this and people want it. People are dying for it. I don't understand. People are going to sign up and they're going to give them money. But yeah, vortex. Your speculation is Roger Viroproak. It's a good question. I have no idea how much Bitcoin he has, but I always said it's not 300,000 Bitcoin. It's either desperation or control. It's clearly a conflict of interest. It is true that all of the noobs want to mine Bitcoin. Everyone hears about it. They have this dream about their computer running overnight and waking up and having money be there. This is everybody's dream. So you got to figure they go to Bitcoin.com. They get confused. They put a hundred bucks in, probably lose it all. Maybe they put a thousand, 10,000 in it. It gets kind of unfortunate at those levels. I thought it was not. I'm not crazy about it, but it did seem just like they're building out Bitcoin.com in every direction. This is one of the directions. A preview of the future just based upon what they've been doing. I think we have a casino coming. I think they've been talking about it. They've been working with some other companies. I wouldn't be surprised if they go full. I don't know what you want to call it when you start running a gambling casino with Bitcoin openly and publicly in your own name. But we'll see how they go. Do on that. Let's go to the exit question. Jimmy Song. Yes or no, would you invest in Bitcoin cloud mining? No, wait too much risk. It's against the spirit of Bitcoin for me. I like to verify my stuff. This is why I read the code. It seems a little bit ridiculous to me that this sort of thing. I get why people would, this would appeal to certain people. I'm just not one of those people who are part of that audience. Tone Vays. Trust and then verify sometime later. Well, the answer to the question is obvious. I would go one further. If I allowed some Bitcoin bank to hold my Bitcoin on my behalf, I would be willing to pay insurance to protect myself from that company accidentally investing my Bitcoin for my benefit to earn interest in cloud mining. I would pay insurance to prevent my Bitcoin from potentially to make me more Bitcoin with cloud mining. Now that's a solid investment. Is there any way that we could short cloud mining? That's what I'd like to see. Jeffrey Jones. Let's see. Exit question. Would I invest in cloud mining? Well, let me think. Since every single one has been so pretty much a scam so far, I'm going to have to say no. Although I do like what you said earlier, would I run a cloud mining company? Oh, of course, you're going to make lots of money. You're selling the shovels. For the first couple of years, for the first couple of years, yes. Is it incredibly ethical? Well, what's ethics? You know, character, friendship. We got to go to these questions. Moving on to issue four. South Korean Bitcoin hack. Just weeks after we discussed the North Korean hacker army feeding on weak Bitcoin all over the world, South Korean Bitcoin exchange, Yapazon, was allegedly hacked for 37% of user funds around 3,816 Bitcoins, more than $5 million. The company is offering debt tokens similar to BitFinex, claiming that they'll be able to pay the users back within two years using fees from the exchange. Is this the new model for exchanges? Casual security followed by the creation of a debt token? Jimmy Song, your thoughts. It's probably a new model. I mean, you got to admit, it's a very easy way to socialize losses to customer base in a somewhat fair way. I will say this is good in that they're being open about it and not being like Mt. Gox and sort of hiding the fact that they don't have Bitcoin. That said, I would never deposit my money there. That doesn't make any sense. The reason why you would is to get some arbitrarial opportunity or anything or something like that. Yeah, there's a long list of exchanges that have been hacked and gone bankrupt as a result. And then make through Bitcoin's history. This is nothing new. Just be careful and don't trust anybody in Bitcoin. That's kind of like the ethos that you need to have in order to survive. I certainly think it's a terrifying new Bitcoin, new business model. It reminds me of that South Park episode where they kept depositing their money in the bank and they're like, here's your money and it's gone. Here's your money and it's gone. Ton Vays, is this the new model for businesses going forward? What do you mean? This is the current model. We've had this model for nine years. This has been the model. I mean, Dithin X gave it a little bit of a structure. They gave it clarity as to how to deal with the of this model. And I think if any exchange is smart, they would write it into their terms of service, terms of agreement saying that if hacked, losses would be socialized across the entire exchange, which is what Dithin X did, which is what this company did. I mean, if that's in your terms of service, then you should have no right to complain. This is the risk that you take for using Bitcoin exchanges. I mean, I don't see how it's going to change. I mean, it's a better asset that can be hacked. It's the way it is, right? Maybe block stream with their liquid box can provide a solution. But this is the world we live in. Like it's as long as you know the terms. There shouldn't be any complaints. And it's certainly possible for these exchange to be hacked. But overall, I agree with you, Ton. I don't think it's that different from the auto bailout that the government did a few years ago. They took the stock of the auto companies and they later sold them back. Is this just the same thing or people just bailing out their exchanges now? Yeah, pretty much. I don't know if this exchange will survive because like Bifin X had a reputation this exchange doesn't have that kind of a reputation. So we'll see. I mean, it's, this should be expected. I mean, what Jimmy was saying earlier about Gemini, now that all these clients are coming into Gemini, this was Maungaaks's problem. Maungaaks number of employees went from about 15 to about 75 in a span of three months. If you have a work for a company or a Rana company that needed to do that, it's impossible. You can't shrain all these people. You can vet all these people. And now that Gemini is becoming a popular exchange, it becomes a honey path, getting worthy of a hack. And that's the big one, right? That's the one you wait none. Jeffrey Jones, maybe next time I deposit some Bitcoin on an exchange, they should just give me the debt tokens in advance. Maybe just in case you never know because at this point, if you're the odds of your exchange getting hacked, it's pretty high. At this point in the game, remember, like there's, as everybody has said, there's been a long list of exchanges that has gotten hacked over the last eight or nine years. And we're far from that changing. We are very early in security in Bitcoin days. I mean, we talked, we spoke about it earlier. I mean, when it comes to trusted hardware and other things, we are very early in terms of security. So we just don't know how to secure Bitcoin very well yet. We're trying. We're definitely innovating. We're definitely having all of these conversations. And now we're trying to do these things like these debt tokens. But these debt tokens are just a bandaid. It's not sustainable. It's not going to keep working every single time like it did for Bitfinex. That's not going to keep working. So what we're going to have to do is increase our security is better our security. And so there's smart people all over the world that are working on that right now. And that's really going to be the future. There's going to be so much money into that that's going to be pouring into securing Bitcoin. It's going to be a huge, huge, huge industry. If you think security is big now, just wait till Bitcoin hits the planet in real mass, in mass, basically, to the mainstream. So it's admiral, it's admiral to them for the try. I mean, of course, well, what else are you going to do? What's your other choice? There's no other choice at this point. It's take your losses or try this debt token. So of course, exchanges are going to try this debt token. But this is not the new normal. This is not sustainable. This is not going to last. And at this point, you just have to only trust a few different exchanges. I mean, again, like there's demand, right? There's demand for Bitcoin all over the world. So if these exchanges continue to get hacked, then somebody's going to figure out a way for them to not get hacked. I mean, there's demand is there and it's not going anywhere. So this is a problem that somebody's going to solve. But it's not going to be solved for a while. I have liquid liquid. That's what liquid is trying to solve that. The liquid project from block stream. That is what they're trying to solve. I did have an idea. Maybe they could just give the debt tokens to the hackers, you know, bait and switch. Just here you go. Thanks so much. Let's move on to the exit question. Jimmy Song, is this any way to run a business? Is there a difference between Bitcoin exchanges and dark market drug websites? Oh, good question. But before we go on, I want to just say something about like Gemini and why I chose them in particular. I know we all crap on New York Department of Financial Services or whatever for making all these places, you know, applied for a bit license and stuff. But I will say that knowing that, you know, what my company does for NYDFS, part of the requirement is that you put a bunch of money in escrow, including Bitcoin. And if you do get hacked, that's always there to make your customers complete. So I mean, there is like in this way, regulation can actually have some usefulness for these sort of markets. Thanks for your question. That sounds like a good idea for the dark markets too. You could put a bunch of Bitcoins in escrow and you can say that it's on reserve and then have the private key somewhere else. And then the ex scam happens anyway. But yeah, I think they should add that to the stack for these private markets. Yeah, maybe, maybe. All right. So as far as is this any way to run a business, I got to say it's a lot better than butterfly labs or mountain blocks, right? And you got to give them that. The industry is at least evolving. It's at least a lot better than it was three or four years ago. At some point, I kind of expect like these companies to take another idea from an earlier point to do an ICO and then cover their losses by having like a secondary ICO token offering and getting more money, right? Like I can imagine something like that. A lot of companies sort of do these like debt issues or something like that. And I can see that sort of becoming a more common thing. As far as dark net websites, I mean, yeah, these companies and dark net, they're similar in the sense that you basically have to trust somebody, right? Like you have to trust the third party. But it's not like dark net websites and that, you know, these these public companies have had regulators and that means that they have to answer to them in some way or they're going to go to jail. Of course, the dark net people will also go to jail, both for entirely different reasons, probably not being regulated enough or something like that. But anyway, yeah, it's I want to point out that we've come a long way, right? In a few years, as far as how bad a Bitcoin company can be, you can crack on all these other Bitcoin companies and how they're not doing things right? But it's guys, we've come a long way. We've come a long way and we should give ourselves some credit as a community and sussing out a lot of these like really terrible companies and making sure that they've gone bankrupt instead of bailing them out. So in that way, good job, Bitcoin. They always said that the service at sheep marketplace was fantastic right up until the last weekend when they ran off with all the money, tone phase. Yeah, they're exactly the same. I mean, there's really no difference. Here's the here's the only potential difference between like an exchange and a dark net market. In an exchange, the exchanges, but in some of the exchanges, the people running the exchange can be visible and public and promote the exchange, right? So it's on some responsibility, right? So for there are exchanges, even some of the exchanges that I like and use like one broker and some of the other ones like BTC, their owners are private. So yeah, this is exactly the same as a dark net market, but in a dark net market, the people in charge of the exchange, they have to remain anonymous for their safety, legal safety. In an exchange, they only have to remain anonymous for their safety if they're like, I don't know, maybe in Russia or in some other place that they don't want to, you know, literally. So the exchange operators have an option. Do they want to be public people in order to get more business? Or do they stay anonymous and slowly grow the business to reputation? Like for example, Gemini is the Winklewurst Wins. There are very, very public. It would be very difficult for them to exit scam and run away, very, very difficult. And it's the complete opposite for something like BTC, who can do it and there always been anonymous. So that's pretty much the only difference, but as far as so the more the less likely the day would exit scam, but it doesn't matter. I mean, look at my own gocs and the Carpellus was a very public person and he probably didn't exit scam. And this is why, you know, he can barely afford a lawyer for his own defense because he's broke. Right. So I can't even say which one is smarter. Right. Is it smarter to run anonymous? Bitcoin exchange so that if half the Bitcoin got hacked, you can you have the option of running away with the other half like Big Verne did and he was, you know, in between the two, he was somewhat public, but he wasn't public enough that he was able to just run away with the rest of the money. Because if you're too public, you remove that option off the table. But you are able to do people on board like Gemini is doing right now. This is a decision for the sea level managers because everyone's getting hacked. Everyone's been hacked. So it's, and it's hard to say which one is better, but yeah, they're almost the same. The Wink of Fire also incredibly tall and there's two of them. So they would stand out in a crowd. The BTC-E exit scam has been in the works for years. And I think you're spoiling a little of it, Tony, when you say there, there will be a hack. So let's all hold on to our hats for that one. That's still in the future to come. Jeffrey Jones, your thoughts on Bitcoin exchanges and their comparison to drug markets. Wow. It's, it's, it's, I don't know if I'd compare them to drug markets, but I mean, they definitely help facilitate drug markets. That's for sure. As, as does these, these crypto currencies and of course the most private crypto currencies like Monero and things like that. So, you know, it's, and again, as everybody knows at this point, this is, this is just part of the circular economy. These are the things, these are the services that need to be serviced first. These are the people that need to be serviced first. So these are the ones that are going to take advantage of Bitcoin first. No, but Bitcoin right now is, it's not for the whole world. It's not ready yet for the whole world, but it's, it's, it will be soon. And for right now, I'm, this is what people are using it for. And you know, if you, again, if you can't buy drugs with Bitcoin, then I don't even want to own any Bitcoin. So that's pretty much my thoughts on that. It's also worth reminding people like Andrea says, when the internet started around 1992, you'd go on there, they'd get angry at you. They'd say you're going to hang out with a gang of thieves and it's a den of drugs and all these horrible stuff out the internet. You saw how that kind of middleed out and Bitcoin will be the same. Let's move on to a story of the week or prediction. Jimmy Song, are you ready with a story of the week or a prediction? Sure. I think my story of the week is, is what's happening at Biffin X, right? Like, who, why, why are they so much higher than everybody else? Is tether insolvence? They dropped below 90 cents at one point. Are they insolvened? What's going on here? I mean, there are some stories about how they have a complex banking relationship that they're not able to establish properly, but I mean, like here this week that there were all these all-time highs on Bitcoin, nobody like made any memes or anything, right? Like it was just sort of, oh, well, this is kind of weird. I don't really understand what's going on. And it does remind a lot of people of what happened to Mt. God, right, before they crashed, right? Like they, they were up there. There was a spread of $100 between Mt. God and everybody else. So, you know, I think that's scaring some people from sort of, proclaiming that this is new high that's going to be sustainable. That said, I don't know what's going on over there. I would love to know more. And maybe if they can put out some sort of, like proof of reserve audit or something like that, I think that would help a lot of customers feel better and that would certainly be better for the currency going forward. But yeah, that's my story of the week. Well, you know, breaking up is hard to do and it can be even doubly hard when you're breaking up with a bank. But I was told that Tether will always be a dollar. Toned Vays, story of the week or prediction. Go ahead. Well, I'm sure a briefly comment on Jimmy. Hey, Jimmy, so we talked about the story on this show and I've talked about the story a bunch of times on my show. I just declare up a couple of things real quick. So, what happened was it's hard for them to show proof of reserves because they would expose their banking relationships and neither Tether nor Bitfinex want to do that. And they actually, I believe they share some of the same banks. So it's a very like sensitive thing like a lot of the companies you ask them, hey, who's your Bitcoin company banking with? And they don't want to tell you because they don't want to, you know, sever that relationship. So that makes it a little bit difficult to do. And the problem basically stems from the fact that these companies bank in Taiwan in order to move money around the Taiwanese banks were sending wires and these wires go through American companies because through American banks in order to get to like other American East. And Wells Fargo was one of the banks in the middle and they kind of, you know, started holding up a lot of these wires so that the Taiwanese banks said, well, you know, we can't have money just. So let's, we're going to hold off on these things. And that's why it was hard to move money around and people panicked. And this is why it's also difficult to redeem your Tether one for one and people are accepting, you know, 92 cents on the dollar for Tether. But the spread is coming down. It got as high as like 9% between Bitfinex and stamp. And now it's back down to 5%. Maybe they're working it out with some of the US banks to allow them to move the money around. So I personally believe that these institutions are solvent. But the problem is, you know, US banks moving the money around. So my, I guess, story of the week is another major bank leaving R3. I'm afraid to share my screen just again, like having like minor issues. And it's going to be Bitcoin price. I'm very happy that the spread is evening out between Bitfinex and stamp. I think that spread going to within 1% is going to be very, very important for Bitcoin going forward. I think it will bring a lot more confidence and there'll be a clarity on the price of Bitcoin. I don't believe Bitcoin is at an all time high yet because for me at all time high needs to be an all time high on all USD trading exchanges. And unfortunately, Bitstamp missed it by $3. They needed to break 1350 and they only made it to 1347. But they're now back to 1330. So by the time I wake up tomorrow morning, I fully expect to wake up to a new all time high across all US exchanges. Where's my $3? Jeffrey Jones, you have a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. Well, first of all, excellent, excellent job, guys. That was some great stories of the week. There was a lot of information in there. That was great. I guess just for me, I'm just still so stoked on Litecoin getting Segwit. Like that's just, I'm so excited. Because after this comes Lightning Network and then after this comes more probability of Segwit on Bitcoin. And so I'm just really excited about this. This is just amazing. Obviously, it pumped the price and now it's coming back down. But as it has to correct, of course, but it's just so great to see Segwit. Everybody come together and Litecoin and just get this activated. So it's really great. I can't wait to see what they're going to do next. Excellent stuff. And my story of the week is that I'm getting closer to beating Zelda. I'm rounding the corner on the third of the divine beast. I've got the fourth one on my map. Ganon is running scared. I've beaten about 55 shrines. I'm not going to be half finishing the game like some people. Jack Jackson Palmer. But I'm still in it and I'm in it to win it. I'll try to do some more live Zelda broadcasting soon. Maybe when I get closer to the end, show you all the cool new stuff I got. It's been a great game, super fun, thoughtful, big world to explore. I enjoy the Switch Hardware. It's fun. It clicks in and out. It has little side things. It's a fun thing. So I'll give that a try if you haven't yet if you're into video games. Otherwise, we're running out of time. Thanks so much for everyone for sharing and thumbs up and leaving us a comment. And I'm going to go read the chat and see what you guys all said, at least as far back as Google let me scroll up. But we're out of time. Until next time. Bye bye.