The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For only the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Theo Goodman from HASS Online. Hello everyone, thanks for watching. Tony Vays from Brave, New Corn. Oh, morning everyone. Four, five, and Yamagena in Thailand, but it's my last night here. I'll be back to normal times, thank God. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to our first topic. Issue 1. Ethereum's Dow, Soft Fork. Maybe a potential DOS vector. These keep getting worse for Ethereum as their recent fix for the Dow crisis may open up the entire contract system to a denial of service attack. The attack seems simple because there is no gas limit on computation for the Soft Fork. The attacker can simply create more and more difficult problems for the global computer to solve with no penalties, bringing the Ethereum network to a grinding halt. Theo Goodman, will things get worse before they get better? I do think things will get worse before they get better. Basically, this just shows, I guess, one aspect of Turing Complete because you always have another thing that you can add to it. So you could just, the feature becomes a bug, the fix for the bug becomes an attack vector, the fix for the attack vector, then becomes a feature that becomes a bug, that becomes an attack vector, and then it just starts again and again and again. You go on and on and on. And there's other issues. Let's say they do, let's say that they say, okay, forget it, we're going to hard fork and then the person that stole the Ether doesn't have many more. Okay, well, that still doesn't stop other possible things to happen that could cause somewhat similar problems. For example, what's to prevent me from making a smart contract that defrauds your smart contract, or what's to prevent me from creating an auger that defrauds every prediction market in auger, and then I make another prediction market that predicts which prediction markets will be defrauded in auger. So you can always go in circles with the Turing Completeness of this, and I'm not sure if it's never ending, but I don't think this is the end for now. Reminds me of that old poem. There once was an old lady who swallowed a fly. Why, why did she swallow that fly? Please keep getting worse as they keep doing more and more things to get rid of the fly. Tom Bays. Again, I'm so pessimistic on the Dow that an Ethereum in general. I'm expecting things to just perpetually get worse. I'm never actually expecting the better of your, when you said worse before you get it's better. I'm not expecting anything to get better. And the deal is absolutely right. This has been my criticism of Turing Complete for a while, and I have two separate criticisms that I've talked about on the show many times. Turing Complete, this is the problem with Turing Complete. Everything that's happening right now is a problem with Turing Complete. There is a completely separate problem of decentralizing a smart contract, which is actually my bigger criticism theoretically than the Turing Complete criticism. These are two independently different things. So the Turing Complete aspect of smart contracts, when there is better assets on the line and by better assets we're talking about assets with whoever owns it gets to spend it and keep it like Bitcoin and what they're trying to create now with a soft fork or maybe a hard fork. And one of the suggestions in that unreasonably long article is actually blocking IP addresses or blocking the coins. So that might take Ethereum not a better instrument, but there is still a value on the line. This is the biggest problem. So that's not Turing Complete aspect. And decentralizing a smart contract is again, having my criticism, those that haven't watched the previous episodes, the TLDR on that is the reason to decentralize something used to prevent censorship. And we don't really have a censorship problem when it comes to contracts. And we really can't have a censorship problem when it comes to contracts because contracts need intermediation when things go bad and they usually do, not usually, but do contracts. Not to mention the end result of a contract needs to be compliant with laws in your jurisdiction. So contracts are generally not censored. So because they're not censored, decentralizing contracts is just insanely inefficient. And Ethereum has combined the two into the mess we have today. So I don't see it getting better. All of their proposals are kind of silly. They should let it go. But the Ethereum foundation, the Ethereum, I guess, forms in charge of Ethereum, Vitalik or the other people, they should have just thrown Stephen Thulie. Thulie and the Sloky team under the bus saying they wrote horrible code and people need are they responsible and those that donated the money are responsible for their actions, for donating their Ethereum and losing. And I said this, right? I said this in episode 95. This is a lesson on how you lose your Ethereum when you give up the private keys to a better instrument that you held valuable. And there you go. Did you show it just let it go? The show just said, oh, this is a lesson in how to what happens when you write about contact. But then this would have been a perpetual problem. Then the next people would have rolled something, you know, would have been exploited. All right. I'm done with that one. And each one of the fixes does seem to be making it worse. If they really do start banning IP addresses, that would be another way to censor people from using Ethereum. All you have to do is get a false positive on that list and pretty soon you're blocking out your enemy's ability to use the product, which is again, each new fix has unintended consequences. That's the slippery slope argument and we're not going to go there because you always have that. So we can't use the slippery slope. No, I think that, definitely I agree, Thomas, that's definitely true. And there's even, there's other things going on now. As far as I understand now, someone can will or can correct me in the comments if I didn't quite get it right. But it's better for miners of Ethereum right now to make the gas really expensive and not execute contracts, which is basically the opposite of what Ethereum is supposed to be able to do. So I don't know how to solve that problem. And then you even have the whole thing about what it's going to happen if and when it even goes to proof of stake and that whole deal. So there's so many other things that in the future that are supposed to happen that are right now even bigger question marks in my opinion. And remember at a larger level here, what we really have is a battle of two design philosophies. Bitcoin is very limited. Limited in scope, limited in number of units, economically driven and limited in what you can do with a scripting language. Ethereum is wide open. You can do anything with scripting language. You can make any kind of contract, which again is leading to these books. If you're more strict in what you're trying to do, if you're more limited in your scope, you're going to have less books. You're going to have less unintended consequences. And unfortunately with the DAO, with the soft fork, with the white hat DAO attack, with the backlash DAO attack, with all of these things, we're seeing that an unlimited system has unlimited attack vectors. Go ahead, Tom. No, and Thierry, you're right. I'm not about that as well, that they were basically incentivized to not execute these contracts and to just mind blocks with security and contracts. But there's other issues, right? I mean, it's just that the smarter people are working on Bitcoin on the top of everything you just said, Thomas. The significantly smarter developers are working on the core team. So that goes a long way. And they literally, I mean, this is why things move slow in Bitcoin because these are code for months. If not the year they released this stuff. Meanwhile, the Slack kid team put this thing together in like one, two months, three months. It was hilarious. I came out of nowhere. This is why I'm so pessimistic on it. I don't understand people sometimes. These are definitely the exact things that you and others on this show have said would go wrong. And now they have gone wrong. And instead of having the humility to say, hey, maybe this whole thing was a mistake. Maybe we screwed this up. They're trying to roll back these changes to fix perhaps unfixable problems. I'm not sure. And the price of Ethereum is not a fraction of usefulness of Ethereum. It is still hype. It is still just hype. And one more point that Theo made about the gas and the payment. I mean, this is why Ethereum had to create its own coin in order to distribute a profit from working on that project for themselves. There was no reason to have it. Again, there is nothing wrong with smart contracts. There was a, Ethereum could have built the same application and centralized the thing and charged Bitcoin for executing a smart contract without knowing what's in it. That would have been significantly safer. The point I'm raising now on Twitter is Ethereum is still a public blockchain or can it now be considered a private blockchain? I don't know the answer to that. If they can just get together with the miners with the electronics, a phone call and all of a sudden they're working the thing. Can it still be a public blockchain? Is my question. I think it's just about immutable or not, but I guess that's pretty much right if I get on the phone. I don't think it's that easy, but yeah, I think it's definitely something that everyone needs to question. Well, also, to the last point, also to those listening, I found something, I found an article about that came out literally one week for the launch of the Dow and its metallic explaining transaction finality and the in it he mentions how in Ethereum transactions will be more final than in it was great that he wrote this whole article one week before the launch of the Dow and one month before the hack of the Dow. We may not know if Ethereum is a private blockchain or not, but there's one thing that we do know in metallic we trust or maybe not. Moving on to the exit question, if you were the dictator of Ethereum, would you fork or not? Theo Goodman. No, I wouldn't fork. And if you can't do anything criminal with the cryptocurrency system, then what uses it? So just let everyone criminalize each other, steal from each other and eventually you'll figure out some kind of utility. Ton days. Yeah, I would have just let it go. Like I said earlier, I would have just thrown the Stephen to all and that whole team. I would have just thrown him around in the bus and I said, you know, this is what happens when you have Bama Tours writing applications for everyone to donate their Ethereum to. Hackers got a hack. It's unfortunate to lose $250 million, but soft forking trying to undo the transaction destroys the value of your coin. It makes it possible to do it again. But again, I would not. Metallic has a big problem because if key intends to go proof of stake, which I always say will not happen and it's not innovative, he can't have some guy having four or five percent of all of Ethereum because then that person will just sit on and get perpetually rich. This is the problem with proof of stake. You can. He would just be a hacker. Moving on to issue two. Issue two. Today I learned that the cloud is just someone else's computer. Cloud miner hash auction was hacked recently with a hacker taking their domain name and causing a five day outage in the site. The site claims that only their domain name and Facebook were hacked and that they will begin making payments soon allegedly. Cloud mining. Still the best deal in town or you better off bearing your money in a jar underground. Toned Vaze. I think you're better off just throwing half your money in a fire and keeping the other half. I think you'll be better off that way. I knew what cloud mining was but I did not know what was a hash ocean. I've never heard of it before. I've never heard of it. It's hard for me to call something like a scam that I'm not going to do that. The moment I hear cloud mining, I run the other way. This will end badly. Do I believe that it's just a hack? Probably not. If I have to guess, it's probably just another Ponzi scheme. They're probably buying equipment. They're probably mining or trying to. If you haven't got no money out of it, by now you probably never will. You feel lucky to get some back. True that. Theo, good. This is cloud mining in 2016. Ladies and gentlemen, we had this back in 2013 and two. With CX was probably the biggest one that started back then. As you can see, it's a risky business. Just look at the history of the cloud miners. Come on. The cloud mining in general, it's hard to make a profit. Why would you be able to make a profit with cloud mining? Just do the math and you'll see that it's very unlikely. Let's say I buy, I don't know what do you have, Terra hashes. I say I buy 100 Terra hashes from hash ocean. How many months or a year do I need to get my return on investment? You really think that website is going to be around that long. Just do the math in your head. It's not really complicated math. You just kind of get out the calculator 100 and then figure it out how much you're getting paid and you'll realize that it's really nearly impossible to ever make any money cloud mining. If a cloud mining operation is quote, legit or not, is kind of the second question because even if they are legit and have a big mining operation that doesn't mean that you will make money. This whole thing with hash ocean getting hacked. When it first happened, it wasn't clear they said they were going to come back or whatever. You're better off holding Bitcoin or doing something else probably. We already talked to you Tom. I wasn't that important. The only other thing to say is that remember with all of these exchanges it's possible that they have a number in their head and they're just waiting until the reserves go up to that number and then they're going to remember what the people said about sheep marketplace and all these other dark markets. The service was fantastic until one weekend when they ran off with everyone's money. Everyone goes fine for a long time and all of a sudden they hit some number and then oops, the website's gone. Where did your money go? It's gone. It's triggered a smart contract. On one last point, I don't... Did anybody even analyze that website? Is there a person responsible for it? No, I've only seen people promote it. There are a few people making videos about it and promoting it and of course that's fueled with the affiliate program. Anything wrong with affiliates is just that every cloud mining operation wouldn't exist without an affiliate program. That's what really pushes the whole promotion of it because the only way you're ever going to make money on cloud mining is from your affiliates. Do you only cloud mining operation? I'm pretty familiar with it. There's always enough familiar with it because the CEO is up all the conferences and he's a really nice guy. I talked to him. I'm not an investor. I'm just saying it's totally unfamiliar with it. It's a Genesis mining and a Markov string. But again, I would never put my money there because I don't think mining is profitable and I'll leave it for professionals. I got into Bitcoin too late. I got into Bitcoin at the tail end of GPU mining and even the moment I get into it, I was like, no, this is definitely not for me. I think I might have split them with someone that was never delivered but it only cost me maybe one and a half bit coins or something, so not the end of the world. Exit question. Which would you rather invest in? Cloud mining or the newest altcoin? Theo good. Of course I would go into the cloud mining and then every day my profits that I had from the cloud mining, I would send them over to Polinex, Bittrex and all the other cool altcoin exchanges and I would buy the newest piggy coin or whatever is coming out that's really cool and I would hit that up. So what I'm doing is I'm doubling down on my profits and you can check out my video on my YouTube channel, how to make $50 a day in Bitcoin and click my affiliate links. Sounds like an impressive way to drive your funds down to zero. Toned Vaze. I can't answer that question. The only advice I give to people is the only advice I now hold to myself. I literally hit my the private keys to whatever Bitcoin I still have from myself. My Bitcoin is going nowhere. It will remain in cold storage while I'll be, I've been just traveling the world not of been working. I'll probably be living out of a cardboard box before I break it to a, before I break it to the, isn't a Bitcoin. I really believe it in long term. So I'm going to hold on to it. It's going absolutely nowhere. I have too many bad investments already and some of them seemed like good ideas within the Bitcoin space itself. I'm totally done with that. Get as much Bitcoin as you can. Moving on. Tired of eating? Get fully balanced nutrition in a bottle. Buy SoilIt at purse.io and get a discount. It's the future of food. Soil and green may be made of people, but SoilIt is made of goodness. And remember you can buy anything at Amazon for a discount with Bitcoins at purse.io. Issue 3. Winklevi. Dump Mazdaq for bats. We can't stop here. This is backcountry. The Winklevi ETF continues to creep forward pending SEC approval. The Winklevi ETF could allow investors to buy and sell shares that would represent part of the Winklevi Bitcoin Horde under the symbol coin. No date has been announced. Tonveys, your thoughts on the Winklevi ETF and Wall Street's desire to chain trade Bitcoin under a different name. So I'm sure many people are not familiar with what the bats exchange is. It doesn't seem to stand for anything. I looked it up. BATS doesn't mean anything. It's fairly new. If I fail to know, I think it's maybe about 10 years old or something like that. It kind of came out of nowhere. People should be really happy the bats exchange exists because bats exchange, it kind of took some of the liquidity away from other exchanges. So prior to bats, almost all Apple stock was trading on the NASDAQ, almost all, I think American Express stock would be trading on the New York Stock Exchange. But bats took some of the liquidity. What the great thing that bats did was it removed what you caught, trying to find the word here. I mean, the DFPU proprietary. Prior to about 10 years ago before the bats exchange came into Wall Street, nobody can see the price of any stock in real time unless you paid for it. There wasn't even a single website where you can see what the price of Google is unless it's on a 15 minute delay. So I am very happy that the bats exchange exists because the bats exchange is the only reason where you can go to Yahoo.com, the price of Google as of three seconds ago because it got traded on bats. So they allowed a data to be free for everyone. So that's the good thing about the bats exchange. Now, Winkle was going to the bats exchange. To me, this means nothing. It's like trade one through one for another when you're looking for a guard dog. The problem is the SEC. It's not what exchange they're going to use. It really makes absolutely no difference at all. And the SEC has a big problem, which is why you may not see a Bitcoin ETF for a long, long time. And this is actually some research done by Bitcoin Uncensored podcast guys that looked into it. And the SEC raised a very good point. They don't know how to assess risk for a Bitcoin ETF because now everyone will be able to invest in it, anyone in any portfolio. So they don't know how to assess risk, but the bigger problem is how can the SEC approve a Bitcoin ETF because the moment they do, the next day, the Winkle was toy, the next things are going to file an Ethereum ETF. And then the next day, they're going to file a – ETF, a Monero ETF, a Bitcoin ETF. If a Bitcoin is going to be traded. Because they're running an exchange that nobody actually trades on as far as no liquidity. So because of this issue, I don't understand when or how the SEC can possibly approve this, unless they have a specific clause somehow limiting to Bitcoin, but tricky, right? Because then you just take the SEC to court, say, well, how come it's only Bitcoin? Why are you on experts on what makes Bitcoin better than Ethereum? Because I think their exchange is already starting to trade Ethereum. So this is a big problem. So you can watch this, but the exchanges around it's the SEC approval that they're waiting for, and that might take a little while. So a very good point, Tony. It's definitely a slippery slope. There's no reason why not to allow all the altcoins. And then the stock market is just another cryptocurrency. Deal, good. Well, it's just really amazing. Now I've come to the conclusion that potentially Bats is the new Microsoft Azure of altcoins, where every altcoin is added and then gets a pump. Yeah, I think that the main advantage of the ETF, if and when it ever does come out, is just that some people that want to invest in Bitcoin, but can't because of their situation, whether it's a company that wants to invest in Bitcoin, but they can't, because their insurance doesn't allow it or other rules and regulations don't allow it. But if there was an ETF that's approved by the SEC, then they could get exposure to it. So then it widens it out so that more people could have exposure to Bitcoin or to trading Bitcoin. So that's pretty cool. And I hope that they do manage to get it through. And I have no idea how they're going to do it, just like Tony said. And yeah, that's an interesting point that once Bitcoin gets an ETF, then every altcoin of the week could get an ETF, I guess, if they had enough money to apply for it. That's a pretty interesting thing that I never thought of. But let's see how this develops. And maybe they've switched to bets for a good reason, because maybe it's just easier for them, because we've been waiting for this for a long time. So Vincol Vos guys, let's hope it's sooner than later. That's a good point. The ETFs will be good for Bitcoin, because they'll allow large funds and retirement funds to invest, perhaps, a small amount of their monies into Bitcoin through the ETF. So if it is approved, it probably would be a good thing, Tom. My guess is the reason that they switched is because bets is a little... They're the new kid on the block, so they kind of pushed the issues a little bit. Like I said, I'm very happy that bets exchange exist, because now you can just go to Yahoo, and look at the price. So they do push the envelope a little bit. They might be a little bit of a thorn. Are you trying to say that bets is the cryptocurrency of the exchange world? Yeah. So maybe the reason is because the NASDAQ just wasn't accommodating. The NASDAQ might not have been helping Vincol Vos fight against the SEC to get this approved. And maybe that's... You know what? We'll throw our lawyers at it. So maybe that was the reason for the switch. But again, that's a big guard dog. They're going up against. So we'll see if they're not going to need anything if it helps. Well, that would be huge for bets, right? They could say, Hey, we've got the first Bitcoin ETF. Here we are, bets. Everyone trade here. So sure, they have a good incentive. The energy behind it. I mean, it's already helping, right? I mean, the entire crypto coin community, no matter how small it is, now learned that there is another exchange besides the New York Stock Exchange on the NASDAQ, right? So I can't, definitely can't hurt. Definitely the first that I was hearing of it. Moving on to the exit question, what sport did the Vincol Vy play in college? And how did this prepare them to run their Bitcoin exchange traded fund? Theo Goodman. I think they were on the rowing team as far as I know. And how did it help them when their exchange traded fund? I don't know. That's, I have no idea, actually. Toned, mate. Yeah, they have absolutely zero expertise to run anything in the probably in the finance world. I don't know if they've done anything besides that. I'm not sure what their degrees are in. But if you haven't worked in an exchange, if you haven't ran an exchange, if you don't have, you know, the top developers that have programmed for a real exchange, it's risky. It's risky. You really, you really want to create businesses in something you have a lot of experience in. I know that's an issue in Bitcoin, you know, but you really want experience. You don't just come in and start something you've never done before within the Bitcoin space. It always ends badly. According to the Facebook movie, the Vincol Vy rode crew. But they were probably those tall guys in the middle of the boat. What they really need to be is the coxen in the front that yells stroke, stroke, stroke. That's what you need to run a Bitcoin exchange. Timing dedication. But we're running out of time. We're moving on to predictions or story of the week. Theo Goodman, are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Yes, I'm definitely ready, ladies and gentlemen. I've got a big story of the week. We're blessed with a big innovation in the crypto blockchain distributed ledger space. That innovation is called Wayne Chain. If you check out WayneChain.com, it explains the innovation in all the levels. It's the fastest, it's the best. You can do everything with Wayne Chain. It solves all your problems. If you have a problem, then you can block chain it. You just go over to WayneChain.com. There you go. Like Tone said, he was feeling a little bit ill today. He's got a cold from traveling. Well, he needs to check out Wayne Chain. What you can do is you can use the blockchain for medical purposes. Then you've got it. This is a really big innovation. I encourage everyone to check out WayneChain.com. Big fan of Wayne Chain. I heard about it on the Bitcoin Uncensored podcast. Although also a big fan of Bob Chain. I think Bob Chain and Wayne Chain might have to fight it out. Tone day is a prediction or a story of the week. I was trying to find it, but I guess I'm not a good speller. Anyway, I'll have to check it out later. Now my only prediction is, what is it? What's the new countdown clock for the Ethereum to solve their problem? Is it like 14 days now? I think it's less than 14 days right now they have to do something. I don't see how they're going to get it done. I can see them releasing something and just making things worse. So my prediction is the hacker will get the keep that Ethereum. And I will watch him dump it on the market for Bitcoin. That would be very, very interesting. So yes, that would be a better prediction a week from now. I just don't have anything else. I don't really have any big stories in a Bitcoin space. And the having is coming right as a next week. Estimated for July the 10th right now. Of course, I'll be on an airplane. It always happens. Like the craziest things in Bitcoin always happen when I'm on an airplane. It's hilarious. That's the day I'm flying back to the US. So I'll find out when I get off the plane. Of course, we'll be having a happening party here at the San Francisco Bitcoin Meetup. Got to bar down the street at the El Rio. I'll be there. Even if we're not at the right time for the happening we plan to celebrate it anyway. Have a countdown. Do the whole thing. But I didn't have time to write a prediction this week. So my story of the week is it's the 4th of July weekend here in the United States. We're celebrating the American exit from Britain. Am exit as I used to call it back in the day. And everyone should have a good time this weekend. Have some barbecue. Get some sun wherever you are. Just have a nice weekend. That's my story of the week. And if anyone in Ukraine come down to a desert, that's where I'm headed next. That's where I'm headed to Ukraine tomorrow. There's a big Bitcoin party there going on in a desert. I think it's on the 7th of July. So it's come down there if we have any Ukrainian listeners or those in the vicinity. The famous of desert steps from that movie. I just suddenly forgot. But we're running out of time. It was battleship attempt. Of course, but we're running out of time. So we're going to end the show for this week. Anything else you guys have to say? Any questions? Do we have anything on the? No, I didn't check. If you have questions, ladies and gentlemen, you're going to have to wait until the video stops. And you're going to have to write them in the comment section. Another thing is that you can join the World Crypto Network Slack. I don't know. Thomas, do you have to give them an invitation or how does that work? Right now they have to DM their email to bad bitcoins on Twitter. And I will invite them. And you can also maybe DM your friends emails or whatever. Just DM me some emails. I'd like to get one of those landing page things going. But I haven't had a chance yet to get people to join Slack. But it's a cool Slack group. If you want to hang out, talk crypto. Maybe make some shows. That's what we do. Right. There's different discussion channels. And you can come tell us you like our opinions or you think that we're totally full of shit or whatever welcome to come on Slack. Yep. And I think we're out of time. I've got to go back to work. Until next time. Bye. Bye.