The Bitcoin Group, the American original. For over the last ten seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Megan Lourds from Bitcoin, not bombs. Hey, thanks for having me. Derek J from Peace News Now. Hey, everyone. Will Penguin from Topiki? Hi. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network. Our top story tonight is coinbase. Bitcoin's bank receives an unsurprising $75 million vote of confidence from Wall Street this week as the upstart firm continues to cement themselves as the way to buy Bitcoin, at least in the United States. Despite shutting down user accounts who send money to so-called bad addresses, i.e. gambling and drugs, or perhaps because of it, coinbase continues to lead the pack and is on its way to becoming the bank of Bitcoin. Megan Lourds, is this a good thing for Bitcoin? Well, it's a good thing for Coinbase. I don't know that it's a good thing for Bitcoin, but I think there's a large contingent in Bitcoin that wants to centralize it and that wants to make it easier to use for people who are lazy and who don't want to maybe take certain other precautions. This is a very much top-down approach to trying to really push Coinbase and push something that is not really in line with the white paper, and at least what I see is the original goals of the technology. Coinbase is notorious for collecting a lot of data on its customers too, and I think this is probably a part of this deal. I don't think that they were collecting that data for no reason. A lot of the things they ask if you continued with an account with them were very invasive, much more, very personal questions, much more than you'd have to answer from setting up a regular bank account, or even when you're going through regular money laundering legislation abiding by the rules of that. They're really collecting a lot of information. I don't know what they're going to do with that, probably at some point, but now Wall Street has direct access to that in a way. I think this is very bad for people who want to stick with the ideological foundation of Bitcoin. I think that this is a problem we're going to see. Coinbase has been really good at selling itself as the easy-to-use wallet. It connects right to your bank account, and it's super user-friendly and all of that. But no, I don't think this is good. This is a way to force a top-down approach and support Coinbase who is very cozy with regulators, I believe, and I think that's another reason they're collecting so much information because they do welcome regulation to a large degree. Derek J. Adoption at any price. I'm surprised by MK-Lord's answer, actually. I want more of this. I think it's great. 75 million. Give them more. This is good news because while I'm not the kind of person who's going to use Coinbase on a regular basis, I value my privacy. I know there are lots of people who don't give a lick about privacy. They just want a system that's easy to use. They want Bitcoin to be basically stupid proof, so that they can just set something up. They have all these great features. They have a good team of automatic repurchasing. It works sort of like a bank account. I say good for Coinbase, good for Bitcoin. This is great. The good thing about the market is you don't have to use them if you don't like them. This inspires other people to say, I don't like what Coinbase is doing. I'm going to do something a little bit different. Derek Shryte Coinbase has a lot of good features, including the ability to subscribe with Bitcoin, sending a regular amount, or even emailing Bitcoins, which they've had for several years. Will, Penguin. Yeah, I am all about the adoption. I think Coinbase is a fantastic way for people to get easily involved with Bitcoin initially. I think it's very important that we explain to new users and even Coinbase themselves. Of course, it's detriment to their business model to explain to users that there are security risks inherent with trusting them with users' private keys. But they should do more of that. There's enough noise I think in the community to cover that band. I always talk to people, what are you looking to do? Easily get in and then easily get out or get in and sit on your Bitcoins. If it's easily get in and easily get out, Coinbase is a no-brainer recommendation for people. It's a great way for people to get a touch of taste. When they can mature in their user ship of Bitcoin and move on to other tools and things like that. Yeah, their business model is one that's, you know, they're called a bridge service often or an on-ramp, off-ramp type service. These are necessary as we scale the technology and we push towards wider adoption. Megan's concerns with the privacy model and the data that they collect are legitimate. They kind of have a gun to their head and they're being very proactive about covering all their bases. That's obtrusive to a lot of users of Bitcoin because the early users of Bitcoin are usually privacy conscious folks. I urge people to learn how to be more private. I use Coinbase on a regular basis to do all kinds of things like the repeat buys and just any kinds of liquidity movements I need in and out of dollars. I just make sure that if I am going to send Bitcoins from Coinbase that originated on Coinbase to a service like local Bitcoins or a gambling site like Poker or whatever I choose to do, that I use a jump-off point like one of my personal wallets, a unique address that never gets used again. Then from there I move on to local Bitcoins or Poker, whatever else you might want to do. That's a way that you can prevent getting Coinbase in trouble and having them have to freeze your account and then being in convenience yourself. That's really the chain of events there. Coinbase getting a big fundraiser is a huge vote of confidence in the beginning of the year as we see this price languishing some more here in 2015. Who knows all the good news and Bitcoin seems to make the price go down at least that's the way it seems. It's got to be a good thing that some new money comes into Bitcoin. Who brings up a good point that Coinbase is a centralized token substrate when you hold Bitcoins at Coinbase you're not really holding Bitcoins. That's why you should buy them there and then transfer them somewhere else. Put them on a paper wallet, put them on a wallet that you control. Exit question, where do you send new Bitcoin users? Coinbase, circle, local Bitcoins, Megan Lords. I've recommended Coinbase and local Bitcoins depending on the person's needs and direction they would like to go. If they're a new user that doesn't really want to get into some of the other elements of Bitcoin they're just looking for something easy to use then I do recommend Coinbase. I'm a bit concerned with where this money is coming from Wall Street obviously. I'm not a huge fan. That's probably my biggest concern with this and the money is going to Coinbase, not Bitcoin in other, the greater kind of other ways money could be used. It's going to a specific company. I don't know that's going into Bitcoin. I actually recommend local Bitcoins more often than Coinbase for people, especially if they live in a larger area in a bigger city because I think it's a little easier to catch transactions. It's a little more anonymous. People who aren't wanting to give up all of the information to Coinbase, I point them in the direction of local Bitcoins because I do think Coinbase requires a lot of identification and a lot of my friends are getting more security minded and they're more privacy minded anyway and they're not really wanting to give up a lot of that information that Coinbase requires. Coinbase local Bitcoins depending on their needs. Derek J. I said new users. I see Liam Wallet, which is my newest favorite wallet because it's so simple and easy to use and people just press one button and it's open and no passwords or anything. I send them a dollar so that they can see what it's like to use this wallet and then I tell them to go to expresscoin.com which I'm not paid to say that or anything but I like this website. I like their service. They make it very easy. I think they have a promotion where if you want up to $40 in Bitcoin, there's no fee at all. You can really get your feet wet without spending a lot and taking any risk onto yourself. That's what I set people up with most of the time. I said, send this to your phone wallet. If you want to be more secure, you can talk to me about that later. You can look it up yourself. If you really care about security, do a Google search. Will. I really think it depends on the user's needs. It can be a bit cumbersome to have that conversation but where do I go? Will, what do you need to do? How are you thinking you'll use this? That's the beauty of Bitcoin. It's still open and you can use it as a currency. You can use it as a commodity. You can use it as a way to transfer property to something tied to Bitcoin. It's really cool in that way. Bitcoin is my new favorite wallet for the past two or three months. Just loving airbits is so great. Perfect for all my needs. I used to carry five or six mobile wallets on my phone. I don't use those other four or five. I just use airbits. Each one of these companies circle, Coinbase and local Bitcoins. Probably the most often I recommend because I just love that community. It's really great to meet people in person or even trade online with people in local Bitcoins. You're smart. You can find little arbitrage loops that you can earn 15 bucks on your Bitcoin every time you perform that arbitrage loop. Take a peek at that. It's a nice little way to make money without really spending anything but time. That's the one local Bitcoins. For a lot of folks, it's Coinbase and Circle for the easy folks. Folks are just introducing. I'm definitely using the airbits wallet like everyone else. It's still Coinbase, although I'd like to give Circle a try. I'm interested to see how that goes. Moving on. Issue 2. Big drama. The Silk Road trial. Ross Obrex, unencrypted journal, continues to provide the prosecution with a bulk of their case and the judge tore down the Carpellus defense and struck it from the record, calling it hearsay. It doesn't look good for the alleged dread pirate robberts. Derek J. You might recognize the guy in this picture. More thoughts on this case. Yeah. I was flattered to see that somebody drew a cartoon picture of me. I went down to the protest or to demonstrate in support of Ross Obrex. Allegedly the dread pirate robberts or operator of the Silk Road. My thoughts about it, well, about this week, the craziest development was that one of Ross's friends took this stand and said that he helped him because Ross really didn't have the technical ability to build up this website. He was sort of like, hey, programmer friend, like, help me out. It's this cool project. I was like, well, what is it? He was like, well, it's top secret. I can't really tell you much about it. I was like, oh, you have to tell me. I'm not going to help you. This is what he testified to on the stand. During cross examination, the defense attorney asked him, so you were involved with the creation of this website, essentially, and you know that. You decided to be in the witness chair rather than the defense chair. The judge was like, hold on a minute. You can't ask questions like that. You're insinuating that this guy is just as guilty and that he was pretty much pinched. He was taking a risk in exposing this information. Yeah, I think it's crazy how they're trying to railroad this one guy when a bunch of people are guilty. Anyway, I don't even know if that's a totally coherent thought. I just thought that was a crazy development this week. Here's a guy testifying against his friend on the stand. He's only doing it because the government was going to put him in jail too. And who's really more guilty here? The guy who actually wrote the software or the guy who's an idea was who inspired the software or the guy who used the software or the person who bought things with the software. I don't. The victim, the crime, who's at risk here never, never seems very clear. Will Payman. Yeah. It's certainly very suspense-filled and just hairpin turns every day, it seems. The coverage that you guys were providing Derek and John Bush and Julia and so many folks down there. I'm with you in spirit for sure. I wish I could be there with you guys. It's just incredible to watch here. Yeah. I've gotten to see the justice system up close in my own personal life a number of times from a young age on through adulthood and it is an atrocity. What passes this. So I kind of feel like you're down by three scores in a football game in the fourth quarter type of thing or down by three goals in the gold medal game in the Olympics or something. You're just hoping for a mayor who come back. But I do think, from what I can tell, from everything I've read and I've exhaustively read the coverage you guys have provided. So thank you so much for such quality content. But I think Dre Tell, Ross's attorney is prepared really, really well. It sounds like he's a couple moves ahead and he's just killing off some pawns in his arsenal right now. Just seeing if there's any chinks in the prosecution armor. I think the real big guns for the defense come out when the prosecution tries to bring out their big guns, which I'm sure Dre Tell and Ross are ready for. And these are things that, to this point, the judge has been striking things from the record saying certain evidence is inadmissible. And major bombshells that the jury cannot unheir are being told to be, they're being told to disregard. That just won't happen for all 12 people for the duration of the strut. The stuff will stick in their mind and Dre Tell will find ways that are admissible to resurrect or reconjure them in the jury. That's what a good defense attorney does. They find it way through all the little rules and strictures that justice is going to put up for them to dance around. And I don't know if it'll matter at the end of the day, but I do think we'll see a masterfully litigated case by the defense as we have to this point. And really nothing but going through the motions from the prosecution and the judge, we're supposed to be impartial arbiter. They're pulling out all the stops and just slashing by a thousand cuts. The defense is what we think are the strongest points, but I think the strongest points are yet to come. So I think there's still room for optimism and who knows what will happen. It doesn't look good, but I never will lose all hope until Levertix is delivered. Megan Lord. Well, I definitely think this particular judge has a vendetta against Ross. She's been like like Ross and I'm sorry, like Derek and Will said she's really been working her hardest to strike certain things from the record. And you can just tell from some of her statements that she really is very much opposed to Ross. And I do have to say though, the Carpella's defense, while interesting and very creative, it was here, say, and he wasn't the operator of the Silk Road. It's kind of clear that Ross was the operator of Silk Road. It's no longer allegedly, I think, at this point. And I think that doesn't bode well. I think that he's not being judged by a jury of his peers. In fact, the judge specifically selected jurors who had no clue about encryption, who didn't understand the Silk Road, who'd never heard of it. So that's not really a jury of your peers. These are people who don't have any understanding of a lot of the topics at hand. And I don't know. I don't know that that bodes very well for him. So I guess we'll wait and see. My thoughts are definitely with his family and all of the people up there, like Derek and others who are doing coverage on it. And yeah, we'll see what happens. I'm pretty sure the only way they could find those people if they found people that don't use the internet. So how could you be judged by a jury of people who don't use the internet and then assume the their year peers? That's crazy. Exit question, force prediction, with the Carpella's defense thrown out and the Ulbricht diary suddenly being used as evidence, the sad result of the Silk Road trial is Derek J. Guilty or not Guilty. It didn't matter. Guilty and he's awesome. Guilty and he's a hero. I mean, that's what it should be. Guilty and set this guy free. He hasn't heard anyone. He made the world a safer place. And he's a dreamer. Well, the world needs more dreamers who are willing to take action and put their ideas into practice. He doesn't need to waste away in a jail cell. That doesn't help anybody. It doesn't remedy anything. And it doesn't make the government win the war on drugs. Anyway, another point is that the jury can't unhear any of the things that they've heard. So, Drittell, the defense attorney, I think is doing an awesome job peppering seeds of doubt into their minds of the jury because while they might not understand the internet, they can understand pointing fingers at other people. And that's exactly what he's doing. And then once the judge is like, well, you have to lobotomize yourself and not hear what you just heard. That doesn't happen. That can't work. So the jury is going to be like, well, why is the judge telling us not to listen to all this stuff? It's starting to add up. It's starting to look like maybe this guy didn't do it. I'm hoping they'll just set him free. Well, Penguin. Force prediction. So I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that there's some bombshell news that will come out with regard to Mt. Gox and Carpellis that will undoubtedly thwart some aspect of this trial altogether. And it might be just me crossing my fingers. But yeah, I think there's a little, there's a hearing rumors. There were rumors in Miami about stuff around Mt. Gox and it didn't have to do with the Silk Road trial. But we'll maybe see some linkage or some other bad news from Gox that the jury won't can't avoid hearing about or learning about also which plants more doubt. It's a Deus Ex Machina. The Toshinaka moto is the dread pirate Roberts all along. Megan Lord. Actually, I said something similar to a friend. The Toshinaka moto is actually dread pirate Roberts. So I think the defense attorney is very creative. He's staying two steps ahead of the prosecution. He has a very creative approach and a lot of evidence on the side of the good here. But I have much less faith in the jurors and the justice system in general and I'm unfortunately going to have to say guilty because of my lack of faith in the system. It's the system rules and he'll likely be guilty. Moving on issue three, Bill Gates, Bitcoin alone is not good enough. Yet another classic saying from the master. 640k will be enough. The internet will never catch on. Join MSN instead. iPhones, iPods, tablets, those are just fads. Bill Gates is back again and this time he knows that Bitcoin isn't the currency of the future claiming that the inability to reverse transactions. Wait a minute, I thought that's a good thing. And the constantly changing value of Bitcoin, how do you get something to stop changing in value? We'll lead to its failure. Bill Payment is Bill Gates, right. Well I think he's partially right that Bitcoin alone isn't good enough but I think we might have different definitions of what's good enough or something along those lines. You know again he's a special interest group all unto himself in many ways. So please think of his comments with that lens in mind. I know people think because maybe Steve Jobs is dead or something that Bill Gates is now the new visionary or who knows. Everyone's looking for some demigod. It seems in the tech world all the time and Jobs carried that crown for a while. Anyway it's something to just be careful about. What is this guy really saying? He's got investments to protect. He's got plans to keep secret. He's got R&D to sell down the road to investors and so on. Yeah. I think saying that the inability to charge back is sometimes they give reasons that are real reasons that someone might have but it's not their reason. It's just an easy thing to fill airtime and throw out to hide what you might really be thinking that you're not going to say. So I can say that I don't want Ross to go to jail because then people can't, you know, wouldn't ever be able to use the Silk Road ever again. And that might be what I think. No one knows if that's true or not. So yeah it's just filling airtime. Bill Gates is a good proponent of Bitcoin. He's got a lot of fiery quotes out there but he's a proponent of tech and innovation. And you know Microsoft is going to build on Bitcoin. We know this and other companies will as well and maybe they'll be competing. Maybe they'll be working in cooperation but Bitcoin don't care. It does seem a little bit like there's an imbalance of the force with Bill Gates alive and Steve Jobs dead. Megan Lords. Well, I think Will made some really good points about some of the conflicting interests Bill Gates may have in some of these statements. But you know, I do agree to it to an extent that maybe Bitcoin is not the panacea. Maybe it's not going to be the dominant force in things like root mittences or things like that. But Thomas, he also made a really good point that he's constantly kind of down on these innovative technologies that ended up becoming incredibly successful. I don't know that I would use his comments as a good predictive measure at all. So I think he has a lot invested in the way the current kind of paradigm is. And you know, maybe he kind of lacks a little bit of creative thinking. I think he does make some good points and I have heard him speak positively about it in the past. So I think there's time for him to come around like he has on some of these other things he was wrong about. And you know, we'll definitely see. So he's still a really smart guy. He's Bill Gates. Some of the time he might want to buy the opposite of what Bill Gates is selling. I'll put that down on my zoom. Derek J. You're all a bunch of conspiracy theorists. Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to ignorance as an old expression. And I think that's what's going on here. Bill Gates has never seemed more out of touch than he does today. And I don't know what you can really attribute that to. I mean, like, isn't he been the craziest wealthy guy in the world for a very long time? That's got to push you out of touch with what's going with what's really going on. So I mean, he just doesn't see the value. The two points that he would make that you that you can't take it back and that its value fluctuates. Tells me he hasn't filled up his own gas tank in decades because that's exactly the case with with gasoline. He's fluctuates and you can't take it back once you buy it. That's a way it is for a lot of things. But for super wealthy people, like you just miss the basic facts of reality. So yeah, Bitcoin is a wonderful technology. These qualities about not being able to take back is a good thing for lots of people. And the fact that it fluctuates in value is not a negative inherently. It just tells you it's a commodity. Yeah, I want to chime in. Like Derek said, this is done by rich wealthy people all throughout time. Right? They give you two. They give you one statement with two means, you know, for the people who know, it means, oh, I see what are you really saying? And then for the people who don't know, it's, yeah, wow, he gets it. You know, so it's just he's filling up air time with something that's appealing to the masses and revealing to the few that he's talking about something else. Exit question. I think this is really one of the most important exit questions we've ever had. What is the best version of Windows you've ever used? Will Penguin? No. Oh, very libertarian answer. Megan Lords. I had a feeling that would be coming from Will. And maybe possibly Derek too, but I'm probably going to reveal my ignorance because like, I was not into tech stuff until I got into Bitcoin. So I was just like a regular Windows user. And I actually liked Windows Vista. And I don't know what that says about me because I'm not familiar with how it compares the other versions and stuff. But I just remember liking it like back in, I guess, is like 2007 or so. I'd almost forgotten about Windows Vista. Derek J. That are myself sort of a power user with lots of different OSs. I love to try them all out for years. I've always run Mac, Windows, and Selenix systems and use them on a daily basis. So I'm happy with all of them. I don't hate on Windows. But to be honest, my favorite Windows operating system was Windows 2000. I know that was a super long time ago. But that was my favorite. It was based on Windows NT, which was most secure at the time. And it was just a super long time. It was one of the things that, anyway, I'll just leave it at that. You're taking the words right out of my mouth, Derek. Windows 2000 was a beautiful piece of software. NT was great. 2000 was a little bit better. But of course, it's a trick question because the best version of Windows is DOS 6.22. Because you could kill Windows and go back to DOS. Trick question. Issue 4. The Winkle Vi are back. And this time with more than just an ETF that still hasn't arrived, the twins are now focusing on a fully regulated US-based Bitcoin exchange to take Bitcoin mainstream. Yet another centralized platform built upon a decentralized currency. Will the Winkle change succeed? Is this what Bitcoin needs? Yet another centralized place to trade Bitcoin? Megan Lourdes. Yeah, I know I hate on centralized systems a lot. And I'm still opposed to them. But I do think that this is a natural result of living in the current system that we live in. And they are trying to capitalize on that. They're trying to... I don't know them personally. I can't speak to their intentions. But I do think that they do want to make it easier to use and more consumer-friendly for people who are not going to look into other aspects of it. And it could be successful. I think some people... I think I would even argue most people are more comfortable with the idea of a regulated, centralized exchange because that's really what a lot of people are used to. So as much as I kind of like stand on my ideological pulpit about decentralized systems and stuff, I do understand that just doesn't work for a lot of people. And it's hard for them to change their thinking about it. And so ultimately that's what's going to make any sort of change, is a change in thinking of something. And when you're comfortable with what we have now, which is predominantly centralized systems and lots of regulations, then that's what's going to probably be the most successful for a very long time until the stop patterns change. And that's what people say about a centralized point of failure. It's always great until the point of failure. Derek J. Capitalist in me says, good job guys. You're producing something that the market wants and that's a job well done. The anarchist in me is like, fuck you guys. What the hell are you doing building this system that's completely useless for me? This is not something that I demand. And well, whatever. I'll leave it at that. Hopefully there are people listening to this show and others who are like, oh, I want a decentralized way to do exactly what the Winkle Voss are doing. They're building that and then I will go and reward them with my capital. But I'm not going to support the Winkle Voss in this. Well, a pegman. Yeah, so they must have a problem they're solving that they're not seeing other New York based or US based exchanges doing a good job of. I mean, Kraken's still not open to US customers. And that should tell you a lot because they're probably the most competent exchange. If you look at their history from the day they open their doors and they have great leadership, they have great legal counsel. They have been smart on all this stuff. And when I hear other people who I respect in the space who have done their like jurisdictional arbitrage for their own startups very wisely in my view, they have nothing but great things to say about Kraken. I think there's something the Winkle Vier trying to solve here that they must have their era on the ground about that maybe not many people do because of their access because of their for turnlers or who knows what. But this is a good pairing with their ETF as well, which all I'm hearing is that it's coming. It's just going through the necessary process, which is a long protracted process for any ETF fund. So yeah, so this might be very much about price discovery in Bitcoin and supporting that. That's why the ETF, that's why that's why maybe a better exchange done better than others in the space. So that's what I'm looking forward to is this better price discovery. We often hear lots of other contributors on this show talk about the importance of that like Anderson, many others. And it's real. It's important because I definitely think $233 for Bitcoin is a well oversold marketplace. This is dramatically underpriced. Bitcoin today is worth far more value to humanity than Snapchat. And if that per Bitcoin today, that means Bitcoin is like $700 a Bitcoin if it had the capital as the issue of Snapchat, right? That's not an apples, that's not apples and apples necessarily, but it's something to think about. Bitcoin as an application is far more valuable to humanity than Snapchat over the long term. People will build tools so that we can have a better means of discovering price and I think that's what they're doing. So Kudos to them. I'm sure the Winklevile bring us Wall Street innovations like high frequency trading and others such great exciting things. And I saw when you mentioned Snapchat, Derek was shaking his head. He said Snapchat is very valuable to us. Yeah, you know, Snapchat alone. Yeah, you leave Snapchat alone. It is more valuable and you have to admit that will like. So I agree with you that I prefer Bitcoin. If I had to choose one and you can't have the other, I prefer to keep Bitcoin. But the market, the world says we value Snapchat so much infinitely more than we do Bitcoin. That's just the reality. So picture sharing is a very simple thing to understand and peer-to-peer money. I mean, money itself, money, let's just say money. Nobody. You didn't mention, come on, there's dick picture sharing. You know, it's like a specific sharing. Snapchat, Uber, Alice, you have broken your internet connection by mentioning that. Nice clarification there. It was important to note. And everyone can ask your questions right now with the question and answers app about Snapchat or any other topic here. And it's important. Exit question, which will come first, the Winklevile ETF or the Winklevile Exchange? Megan Lordes. Wow, I don't really know. Got to pick one. Exchange or ETF? Oh, man. Well, I think probably the ETF since they've been working on it longer and they're probably further along with it. Yeah, with the centralized exchange, they're probably going to wait to see what the regulations are going to be coming out of New York before they act on that. I'm sure they've put together a lot of work so far, but they're probably going to wait it out and see what other hoops they have to jump through. Because starting in exchange, it's no easy feat. So I say the ETF. Derek J. It'll be the ETF and just the ETF. The exchange will be just something to generate interest, media, talking about them and then focus on their ETF. Because that's what the people really want. They've been waiting for this ETF for a long time. The whales or whoever have been waiting to throw their cash into Bitcoin in a way that's safe and approved by the system. And so hopefully that's what they do. I think it would be good also for the price of Bitcoin. I think there would be other people. Once the ETF comes out, people throw money into Bitcoin, the price of Bitcoin goes up. Speculation on my part, but that's what I think. Well, payment. They could pop up an exchange anytime they want. It's just a matter of when they decide to launch the software's out there. But I'm going to agree with everyone else on the panel. I think it's the ETF. They're in the final few laps of this race. There are a lot of people who say it's never going to happen. It'll never happen. It'll never happen. But everything I'm hearing from credible sources of information is that it's on its way. The ETF will be first. The exchange is just a piece of software to put on a shelf, which is where I left my copy of DAW 6.22. Bonus question. No, either of them be more popular than Facebook. Megan Lawrence, you know the answer. I'm going to have to say no. Derek J. Even muted. We know it said no. Sorry, yeah. No. I don't even know why that would be asked. Would the ETF or the exchange be more popular than Facebook? What about the combined? The ETF combined with the exchange. No. Will Penguin. Technically the answer to your question is no, but I think the Winkle Voss is holding a Bitcoin will outperform Facebook on the long term. Definitely. 100% sure of that. Ooh, and there's a prediction. But yes, how depressing for the Winkle V eye? Nothing they can ever do will be more popular than Facebook. And now, questions and answers. We have several questions all from Eric. Eric says Bill Gates is a douche. He says, what implications do you think the Ross Old Brett case will have for crypto? I think it has bigger implications for people that host websites. If you host a website that allows someone to do something illegally, you could now be held accountable of that because of perhaps the results of the Ross Old Brett trial. Anyone else disagree on that? On that? Yeah, yeah. No, it's not just that, Thomas. I think you're missing a big part of it. A lot of people are. It's for all web hosts. This essentially criminalizes all web hosts because if you, Thomas, in the comments section and then I do it, then the host like YouTube could be found legally liable for that. And of course, the government's not going to go over and attack YouTube for something like that because they'd be like, oh, well, you know, YouTube, anyone could do that. So this is going to lead to what we have already in the rest of the world, which is called selective enforcement. Everything is illegal. And then the government gets to choose who we want to put in jail for it. So they're going to let their friends off the hook because they're big and they give them money and lobbyists and big like envelopes filled under the door. And then everyone who doesn't do that, they get arrested and thrown in jail. The future. Anyone else want to talk on that one, Megan? I want to kind of talk about another thing that happened this week that I think maybe on par maybe even worse than the president that was set in the wrong, that might maybe be set in the Ross, Albert case. And that's what happened to journalist Barrett Brown. He basically was sentenced to 63 months in jail for basically providing links to publicly available government documents that were leaked by WikiLeaks. And this is actually extremely scary because now you can be indicted and thrown in a cage for merely linking to publicly available information that the government doesn't want you to know. So I think everyone should look into that situation and learn more about Barrett Brown and what he did and what he's going to jail for because that was a huge blow to anyone who uses the internet. You know, possibly crypto too, I mean it could have, you know, not as much implications as Russell Bricks trial, but definitely something that should be looked into. And I agree with Derek and Thomas too about the implications of Silk Road trial. Will anything to add? The precedent setting potential for this case is greater than anything I can think of in my entire exposure to criminal defense. You know, my father was a criminal defense attorney for many years and you know, this is so, so profoundly huge. This is the perfect little like bad guy, boogie man thing to be setting all these precedents for future litigation. And we're seeing the machinations and the chess pieces move in this, you know, around the world with David Cameron and things that he's saying about encryption and banning encryption in the UK with Obama State of the Union speech mentioning similar things. And just this is, and the good news is, I mean, yes, this is stuff, this is stuff we need to shine a light on, we need to talk about it. The world who wants to use open internet and wants to preserve privacy online of any kind of information needs to be loud about being against this. And I think ultimately they will be, we will be, but there's no, you know, there's no reason to like think through too much. I mean, go to a Bitcoin conference for half a day, talk to half a dozen people and your mind will be blown with the amount of possibilities that maybe they're not even building, but that's one day someone will build and, you know, we're going to, we're going to always find a way and repair the damage, you know. This is these kinds of systems and these tools help humans create a human system that can become anti-fragile in this way. And we're getting there. This is just the beginning. It's very exciting and get to work. If you're, you know, disenfranchised, you're bored, you're anything, you know, like Andreas Centenovel has always says, Bitcoin is hiring. I think you could say crypto is hiring, you know, the internet is hiring. You can say all those things. Hey, if I could add a silver lining to this cloud of the Russell, Bertrylon, what sort of precedence it'll set for the world of crypto. To use an analogy, I sort of think that the, we've all played the game, the, the floor is lava as kids. So, you know, you can't step on the floor. There are certain places where you can step. And dealing as an innovator with the world of an oppressive government is a lot like playing the game the floor is lava. So Russell, Bertrylon was the first out there and he, you know, took a fall and taught us all a little bit about how to navigate the landscape a little bit better. Unfortunately, that's just sort of how the world of innovation works while we have governments. Very good point, Derek. And we have one more quote from Eric who says, if Ross gets busted, I say we start charging every liquor store owner who sells booze to someone who then gets drunk. Very good point, Eric. We've got a couple more questions from Eric. He says, how about they make something we actually need like an app that lets you buy Bitcoin with your credit card? And I think there is some update on that circle that lets you buy Bitcoin with your credit card. So check out circle, I guess it's just circle.com. They have an iPhone app as well. So everyone, check that out. Yeah. Coinbase competitor. I think that is a bad feature for so many reasons. I mean, with the volatility of Bitcoin and with the easy access to credit in this country, especially America, United States. Oh my gosh, that could really ruin some people and some, you know, most adults care for other adults or humans. And if you're one of these people who, you know, you're timing is off. You just bad luck. Who knows? And you get really hurt. You can not only hurt yourself and your ability to produce on a, you know, like tomorrow, the following day, just by buying Bitcoin, here's why it's bad because often, I think 9 times 10, it ends up as a cash advance. The interest rate on credit cards for cash advances is like 23.5% or some craziness. There is no way the appreciation of Bitcoin, except for maybe some few lucky, lucky periods over the last couple of years can outpace that risk. So please try to, you know, earn your Bitcoins in a different way than buying on credit. Be very careful. Don't you think that people should have the freedom to take a risk? I do. I do. But, but it's not a feature necessarily that, you know, should be marketed to the other way. You can already think out a private loan or one from a bank and buy Bitcoins with it. I mean, that's already possible. So what's the difference if you put it on a credit card? It's up to an individual to assess one's own risk. You're right. The difference is just that interest rate. You know, that's a huge, huge difference. And people might know they're getting the cash advance rate. They might think they're getting the normal rate. It's easy for a bank. The cash advance rate also starts right away. It doesn't start at the end of the month. It's an immediately clocked. So yeah, it is a different loan. It's dangerous. And again, all the credit, credit card companies are really good about hiding the threats in fine print and making them, like Thomas just said, you're not aware that the rate starts day one or you're not aware that your credit card interest rate of 11.5% isn't the same as your cash advance on the same card, which is 23.5 or whatever. So, almost nobody takes the time to look at this stuff. And Bitcoin isn't risky enough environment as it is. So I just wanted to put the disclaimer really. Of course, people should be able to take calculated risks. Be free to do that. However they please. And Eric says he wants, if you want me to adopt, you've got to give me an easy way to do it. And so we're saying Coinbase and Circle are pretty easy. You could buy some coins. And maybe in a couple days you could make some online purchases by a gift card at GYFT, go to Amazon, get whatever you want. Use Bitcoin as a way to spend money on the internet. What we're saying is we're not so sure about using Bitcoin as a way to get rich. Like yes, we're still holding some Bitcoins. We hope they go back up. But as far as like the whole getting rich thing, we're not sure that's really on the table right now. So watch out for that, everyone. We've also got Eric says, why would I buy a Bitcoin ETF when I can just buy Bitcoin directly? The idea a lot of people are thinking about the ETF is a lot of people have pre-tax money in retirement accounts that they can use to buy stocks and bonds, but they can't buy bitcoins without without taking it out, paying the tax, buying the Bitcoin, holding the money, paying the tax again when you're still again. So the Bitcoin ETF would be a way to buy Bitcoin like a stock or a bond. And if the Winklevice set it up properly, it could properly link to the price of Bitcoin. If the price goes up, you could retire in a nice place. And if the price goes down, not so much. So I would be careful about that too when that's available. Don't invest your entire retirement in the Bitcoin ETF. A good point. Diversification is always key. Eric says, why do you care? Capitalism is dangerous. I think that's Derek's attitude here. Take risks. Make your own risks. But bet on yourself first. Bet on yourself and your own ability to work. Don't just bet on some random chance or some inside information you think you have. Often it's not that inside. And Eric also says that Bill Gates will have his revenge. He's going to write a coin that's mined only on the Xbox One. So watch out for that soon. Microsoft Xbox Coin. So you can probably use that in the Microsoft market. We're going to move on to predictions or story of the week. Big and more. Are you ready with a prediction or a story of the week? Okay. So I don't know this is so much a story of the week as it was an article that I just wanted to share with everyone that I really, really enjoyed. And I think kind of shows you the very beginnings of kind of where the drug war started in this country after prohibition before the DEA. And Thomas, you tweeted this article out too. It was an article called The Fing of Billy Holiday. And what how it relates to Ross Ulbrich is what he's going through is the result of the policies that were put in place by Harry Anselinger and other people in the federal Bureau of Narcotics in the 1930s. And what they did is they targeted jazz musicians specifically Billy Holiday to the point where they just ruined this woman's life. If you're a fan of jazz music or Billy Holiday, you may be familiar with this story. Now I want to read the first paragraph to give you kind of a teaser because this is just such a well written article. It's a little bit long. It's a few pages long. But I highly recommend everyone read it so they can understand where this drug war kind of started and who it was specifically targeting and just the racist intentions of it and just this person, I mean, reading about Harry Anselinger, just one of the very worst people and a lot of the people involved in the Bureau too. So I'm going to read you the first paragraph. Maybe that'll kind of, you know, what your interest. Jazz was the opposite of everything Harry Anselinger believed in. It is improvised, relaxed, free form. It follows its own rhythm. Worst of all, it is a mongrel music made up of European Caribbean and African echoes, all mating on American shores. To Anselinger, this was musical anarchy and evidence of a recurrence of the primitive impulses that lurk in black people waiting to emerge. It sounded his internal memo said like the jungles in the dead of the night. Another memo warned the quote, unbelievably ancient, indecent rights of the East Indies are resurrected and quote in this black man's music, the lives of jazz men. Jazz men, he said quote, reek to filth. And this is where the drug war, as we kind of know it today, started and you get a really good understanding of, you know, why it is so messed up now in current days. So I just recommend everyone check that out. It was an article I came across I really enjoyed and I guess that is a kind of story of the week. It is unbelievable what they did to people just because they liked a different kind of music. Absolutely. Derek J. I have got another tree from the United States government who attacked journalist Barrett Brown and they are putting him in jail. This is of course nothing new. The United States federal government has been putting journalists and media people in jail since the beginning of the government since like the 1700s. You can look that up. But I want to read to you a positive note from Barrett Brown because like, you know, we could all take a, we could take our licks in different ways. But attitude is what counts for everything I think. So Barrett Brown has picked a good one. I want to read you just an excerpt of his commentary after he was sentenced to five years in prison for sharing a link, which again, as MK Lords pointed out, was publicly available. Here's just an excerpt from what he wrote after learning he was going away for five years. Good news. The US government decided today that because I did such a good job investigating the cyber industrial complex, they're now going to send me to investigate the prison industrial complex. For the next 35 months, I'll be provided with free food, clothes, and housing as I seek to expose wrongdoing by the Bureau of Prison's Officials and Staff. And otherwise report on the news and culture in the world's greatest prison system. I want to thank the Department of Justice for having put so much time and energy into advocating on my behalf. Rather than holding a grudge against me for the two years of work I put into bringing attention to a Department of Justice link campaign to harass and discredit journalists like Glenn Greenwald, the agency instead labored tirelessly to ensure that I received this very prestigious assignment, which me luck. Very cool, great statement. And we do have an update for Eric Rossso who says, I don't want an account, I don't want to register, but I want to buy Bitcoin with my debit card. Unfortunately, you're going to have to take your debit card to the ATM, buy cash, and go to local Bitcoins and buy your Bitcoins with cash. There it is, problem solved, done and done. Will Pangman prediction or story of the week? I think I really love both the stories of the week from the other panelists. I don't know much to say, I think I'll just build on what I was saying earlier. If you're out there, you're interested in this stuff and you don't like the way certain things are going, you've heard us talk about a number of problems in society that bleed into overlap with this technology space, Bitcoin cryptocurrency. And yeah, raises all kinds of important societal questions. If these things make you feel motivated, please act on that motivation, find something value that you can bring somewhere and keep walking along that journey because Fortune will favor you as long as you keep taking another step towards, and have short-term goals, keep the target pretty close. And as it gets boring to shoot the close target, move the target further away and make it increasingly more difficult. Don't shoot for the moon right away. Don't try to shoot bulls eyes from hundred yards right away. Just take a step, keep taking steps. You'll find a way out of whatever you're finding yourself in. And I think for a lot of people, that way it can be micro-antropreneurship or working in a technology project because of how open ended they are, permissionless innovation and all of that. And most people don't care about what your degree is. If your commits on GitHub or quality, they'll be kept. So just find that courage and keep taking those steps and reach out to people who inspire you because they want to hear that they had an effect on you and they also are happy with they have time to keep sharing that with you. This is people from the millionaire, super popular, Mark Cuban or bloggers who are very famous and venture capitalists all the way down to people on this show and everything in between. And you can get involved at WCN. You don't have to be on camera. You can help with this project if you're a media person. Just find a way to bring value and don't be afraid. You can do it. Prediction. A Bitcoin company will be hacked this year. Not only for its Bitcoin, though they'll take that as well, but for its database. The real problem will be, how will the company even know if their data is gone if the thieves make a copy? You should watch the trailer for the movie Gray State, GRAY, STAT. Here's a little bit right here. It's super creepy. Look at that. That's the creepiest thing you've ever seen. But we're out of time. Until next time. Bye. Bye. Really is creepy.