A Bitcoin Group, the American Original, for over the last ten seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest cryptocurrency talk. We'd like to welcome the panelists. And J.S. Antonopoulos, Bitcoin- Hey everyone. Commentator. Chris J. from Feathercoin. Hello. Christoph Atlus from Anonymous Bitcoin Book. Excellent to be here. And Megan Lourds from Bitcoin, not bombs. Hey, how's it going? Our top story tonight is the new Bitcoingroup.com. Did you know with the Bitcoingroup.com, you can donate Bitcoin's by pushing the donate Bitcoin's button. You can even scan this QR code. Also, the Bitcoin Group is now available on audio podcast at SoundCloud.com slash madbittcoins1. Madbittcoins1, your radio station that now has the Bitcoin Group. Soon we will be added to iTunes. Old episodes now available. Also, madbittcoins was nominated for a shorty award. But our first story tonight is Zao Tong. You just got Mt. Gawks. And the TV's exchanges, they know what Bitcoin made of. It's a quarter what they make up. So you hate to stop the hate. So come on in, bring your friends up inside. Let me tell you about Bitcoin's how you must get it right. Let's get in with my business. Always change your eyes, business. We stopped trading for shizzle years ago when we... Come on. Wait, you know what business? How about this business? No, no. The thing here, we get self... Of course it's taking school all this kind of jobs. You just got my job. You just got my job. You just got my job. Mt. Gawks. Gawks, gawks, gawks, gawks, and more gawks. Mt. Gawks claim that their security concerns cause them to move and miss their Thursday deadline and not the presence of their short sleeve CEO in the snow. After their announcement, the Mt. Gawks price fell to $100. The lowest it's been since July. The big stamp price followed to $564. When will this Mt. Gawks nonsense end? Will it fall to zero? What's really going on? I ask you. And Dres and Tenovelis. Well, apparently not satisfied with my proclamation of the clownish incompetence of management. Now I'm getting accused on Reddit of somehow being a co-conspirator with Gawks because I haven't called them outright thieves and fraudsters. I'm going too lenient because clownish incompetence really doesn't even begin to explain things. At least for many people. I thought it was as sufficient and full explanation for everything that's happened, but really Mark, are you trying to challenge that concept? Because you move in the middle of a development emergency. That's a great way to get the development team to work harder. Hey guys, pack your stuff. We're moving. We're moving to a land free of protesters who won't stop me on my morning frappin' latte run and ask me annoying and difficult questions like, where the hell's my money you short-sleeved idiot? Well, here we go again. I could not imagine that Mark Carpellus could increase the level of incompetence, but apparently he has. At this point, even I'm thinking, really, is there more to this story? I thought incompetence explained it, but you're really pushing the narrative, Mark. You're really making it difficult for anyone to still believe that you're not a fraudster. It's getting very, very hard. Chris J. Oh gosh, I don't, I hate to say a touchy say, but haven't I been predicting this last two weeks? And my prediction for next week is that we will be talking about this again. And hopefully this time we'll just be talking about Mark Carpellus, the individual. The guy needs to come clean. If you're listening to this, Mark, and you know what? You know I love you. We had a moment on IRC. Remember, a couple of months ago, I put in a support ticket and I reached out to you and you actually sorted it out for me. I know you're there. I know you can hear me when I PM you on IRC. I think the guy needs to come clean. He needs to just fess up. I wouldn't be surprised if he's lost all the coins and it's some big fuck up. But whatever it is, he just needs to come clean because the real theft right now is the theft of everybody's time and attention. Instead of talking about the heroes of Bitcoin, we're talking about, as Andreas puts it, a clown. And it's distracting us from where Bitcoin can really go. We've had some great news this week. Bitcoin's got some huge potential and we've got an ATM in Boston and PayPal are now making moves to get into the space. This isn't about friction, this shopping. This is about getting money into third world countries and all he's doing is derailing the entire conversation. So yeah, I don't really have a whole lot to say. I was hoping I did. I went on to the IRC channel before I came on here looking for some information. Nope, there's no information. Just one last support staff, NeoFuture calls himself on the IRC and he's the last guy standing. Sarah and Delirium, apparently the other support staff were getting married. I don't know who gets married in February, not the best month. But they told everyone the other day that they were getting married and they wouldn't be on the MTGox IRC support channel anymore. And so now it's just one guy. They all claimed when asked and put under quite a lot of pressure from customers like are you actually proper contractors? Are they paying you or are you just customers who are getting perks for modding on the IRC? They claimed that they were proper contractors but Delirium said that although he is a contractor he does trade on MTGox but he made clear that he didn't have access to any inside information. But he literally he just got given stuff to say and then he would just say it but he didn't have any information. I find it hard to believe that nobody has any inside information in the story. After all we didn't see the price crash a good 4 to 5 hours before the announcement the other day. I was on IRC when that happened and I went on there when the crash happened. You know what I'm talking about? The price actually crashed ahead of the announcement that there was no announcement that effectively this was an update about an update. So that would hint towards, so the way exchanges work is they actually set up around liquidity pools. Exchanges are not startups that have great hopes and ambitions about one day providing liquidity into a fresh young market and market making for it. It's actually built around rich people who wish to gain exposure to an emerging asset class who also want some inside information on who's trading. When you run an exchange you know what's in everyone's account. You see all inbound transactions. You have background info. You can front run their trades. That means that if you see somebody else put in a trade you can put in what's called an order type which means that you can match their order but yours will get filled before theirs does. So you actually get like a top layer view. That's how exchanges work and it's not a secret like this is I'm not breaking any news here. This is how exchanges work. So what happened was people pulled them up on this, pulled the startup up on this and said well that can't be a coincidence. And so this support staff claimed I don't have the log file on me but from my recollection was that somebody must have second guessed the URL for the announcement and that what someone must have done is they must have worked out what the URL was when the lawyers have to go and approve it. So quite how this approval process works. I haven't seen any evidence at all that anyone works for empty box other than Mark O'Pallus. Do you as anyone ever seen anyone or heard from anyone other than Mark ever? I would not be surprised if it's just him on a laptop in a virtual office in Japan. And I think that he has screwed up. He knows he's screwed up. That's the protestor guy saw the like the secretary person before. Oh yeah sure. Is she not the secretary of the building? Is she not? No, he knows. Yeah I haven't seen any evidence that anybody other than Mark works there and his username on the RSC is on 24-7. So he's obviously just got a machine that's just left on the whole time. And of course now what's happening is everyone's trying to work out the intentions. Now that we've seen what happened, everyone's trying to work out what did he mean it? Was this meant to happen? Was this deliver? I don't think it was. There's been any malice here, but I do think he's made a screw up and he's too embarrassed and he doesn't want to face the inevitable and somebody needs to go in there and talk him down and say look you have to have a vote. I know it's going to be awkward but we have to have a frank kind of conversation about this. So there's my thoughts. Kristoff atlas. All right. Here's what I think happened. There are some angry depositors that showed up and they were actually ninjas. They snuck into the building and they posed as pizza delivery guys. They said hey Mark, we got some pizzas who ordered a pizza and Mark was like I did and then they attacked. So all of the employees fled to the roof and they were evacuated by a helicopter while Mark fended them off with his samurai sword and that's why they had to make the emergency move. I think that's what happens and I think we'll all come to see that Mark is a great hero in this story when everything is revealed. I agree and I think that was much better writing than the press release. Megan Lorde. That was great. The more information that comes out about this, the harder it is to believe the kind of incompetency that's going on and just kind of like this is really terrible. And probably the worst part about it is that it makes Bitcoin look bad to people who don't know anything about Bitcoin. It's making our jobs harder to go out and get business owners into Bitcoin and get just individuals and people we know in the Bitcoin because they're seeing all this volatility that's caused by Gox. They're seeing all of this controversy and it looks really bad. And like Chris J said, he just needs to come out with the truth. Just however bad it is, whatever happened, he just needs to come out and be straightforward with people. I hope it ends soon. I really do. I don't think it's going to affect obviously Bitcoin in the long run but it does make our job a lot harder. Well the simplest explanation is usually the right one. So if there was a transaction malability issue within Gox and they automated withdrawals, they obviously got taken for a large number of Bitcoin in automated withdrawals. How much Bitcoin if they got taken? We don't really know but I do agree with Chris J. Mark, if you've made a mistake, if you've had some kind of coding error that's led to a massive loss of wealth for your company, you may as well come out with it. The more you cover it up, the worse it's going to get. Look at the Chris Christie situation. He's only making it worse. You're stuck in tar. You have to stop struggling and call for help. Good question. When will this gox nonsense end? Andreas Antonobles. When Mark Carpellus resigns as CEO and appoints a professional CEO to replace him and toll then, nothing will change. The nature of the latest crazy scare and debacle will change but the problem at the root of this will not. Chris J. I think I'd go a little bit further and say we need to get an independent auditor involved. This is what happens. I've been involved from the outside. I've been involved in a number of liquidations of companies that I owed money to. I've seen a lot of frauds in my time and I know how to recognize it. I've got a very keen eye for it. What happens is we're no longer customers now with victims and the perpetrator will go into denial. They'll even deny the truth to themselves. What they'll do is they'll kick the can down the road and tell them stories about how it's going to be okay. If we just keep the exchange trading, we let people make deposits, I'll make it back in fees. He's probably telling himself the story but the only remedy really to get closure for the creditors, to get closure for the customers so they can just get on with that life. They can make plans about their financial histories which a lot of people are struggling with at the moment. There's to have an independent auditor who's disinterested in the emotions of the case who can go through the books. What I actually feel sorry for Roger Verne as well because he went in there and he looked at that book so apparently over the summer was it and actually did that when on video. It's like, do that guy's got some amazing credibility. That's his reputation too. I think they need somebody that's properly independent to go in there and audit the books. Next off, Atlas. I think even after the company goes through the bottom of the red line, I think that it will continue to get coverage in the news for a while because there are certain media outlets that just love piling on top of the Bitcoin as a bubble. They don't know what they're doing, kind of stuff. It's fascinating to see some of the news coverage because it's embarrassing how poorly researched it is. Major media outlets saying, oh, the Bitcoin price has gone through less than $100 or it's like, no, a lottery ticket for Bitcoin has gone through less than $100 but not Bitcoins. It's just amazing. It makes you think like, what else are they in this reporting about? They can't bother to put five minutes of research or ask someone that's knowledgeable about Bitcoins before they put an article out and they're just like, oh, they're Bitcoin read another graph and move about $100. Okay, put it in. It's disconcerting to see that kind of stuff. I think we'll continue to hear about Monkox for a while and we'll have to defend ourselves against the record of Monkox. The reporting has been unfortunate but remember it was the New York Post. Megan Lourdes. I think Chris Dauv made a really good point about the media friends here and I think that part is going to last longer than the whole situation with Gawks and I hope it's resolved as soon as possible though. There are people that are really hurting here and this needs to be resolved as quickly as possible and whatever it takes to do that. Hopefully, maybe we're looking at a matter of weeks instead of months here. That's what I'm hoping for. Well, I'd like it to be done by next week because I'm tired of talking about it. Issue 2. Week of Bitcoin ATMs. Bitcoin ATMs were opening everywhere this week with ATMs popping up in Boston, Austin and even New Mexico with plans for expansion into Singapore and London. How big of a development is this for Bitcoin? Do we need two way ATMs where you can get fiat out or just one way Bitcoin machines? Will this encourage Bitcoin spending or Bitcoin hoarding? I ask you, Chris J. Sorry, I was muted. Okay. So, these ATMs, we actually did a live stream on Feathercoin of the Coin Fest in Vancouver and Dogecoin had released what looked like a flight case with a mobile phone stuck on it with some gaffer tape. No, I might be a bit harsh with the gaffer tape, but it was definitely a flight case. And you know what, I love this joking aside, I looked into making an ATM back in the autumn with a friend of mine who makes light hardware and stuff. It's surprisingly difficult, but what it looks like is somebody very clever has come along and worked out way of doing it. Essentially, the way they work is that they print out a private key. Is that your understanding? That's what I saw on the live stream. It depends which machine you're using, but yeah, a lot of them will just give you the wallet. Yeah. No, I think they're brilliant. And I think what they actually do is give people extra liquidity into and out of the market. We talked a lot about doing, putting them into shops so that people could actually, so then the shop would actually get the cash from the ATM that they would then be able to put into the till. So you'd have this kind of rotation of money. So you'd have people wanting to spend the coins in the shop and then people wanting to deposit the coins. And then rather than the merchant having to behave like a speculator, they could just get the liquidity directly from the ATM. So I think these are fantastic. I think that's an interesting idea, and a way of a business to be self-sufficient acting as its own bank and encouraging the trading of the digital currency, well, not interrupting their normal business. You can just use the ATM, change your money in and out, pay either way at the register. I think that's an interesting future right there. Kristoff, Atlas. Well, I think the deployment of ATMs is very exciting. I know both Chrissy and Minkile powers who co-founded the Liberty Tellers in Boston. They're both fellow Bitcoin Philadelphia meetup members. And I'm looking forward to seeing one deployed in Philadelphia as well as long as they are able to resolve the lingering regulatory issues. I'm mostly interested in seeing machines that can be used to purchase Bitcoin. I think the regulations for machines that dispense cash are going to be stiffer. And what we really need right now is to onboard people into the cryptocurrency economy. Keep in mind that once you get Bitcoin, you can exchange it for a variety of cryptocurrencies. So these ATMs are going to be a perfect on-ramp for all of the cryptocurrencies that they're out there. And I just want to remind people that Bitcoin ATMs are not a reliable way of obtaining Bitcoin's anonymously. It's very easy for someone to set up a hidden camera and record use of an ATM with their your knowledge or your consent. So don't expect that necessarily your ATM transaction is going to be anonymous, so to speak. Megan, Lord. I think this is a great development. I can't wait to use one. I would like to see the two way ATMs. I think those would be better for people who are kind of uncomfortable with the idea of Bitcoin. And just that idea of Bitcoin ATM makes it more appealing to a more mainstream audience. And I don't think people will care too much about the anonymity. I know a lot of Bitcoiners do. It's something that I'm concerned with. But I don't think your average person cares that much about it. I think it's going to be a more accessible way for them to get Bitcoin without having to meet up in person or some longer go through any other method. So I think this is great. And yeah, I'd like to see more widespread. I am concerned about how they're going to try to regulate it, though. That will be kind of interesting if they're going to try to expand the regulations even to say that an ATM can be a money transmitter service or something. So I'm curious to see the development of that. But I think otherwise this is really good things for Bitcoin. And Dreas and to Novelis. Well two way ATMs are complex. I like the simpler version of the Bitcoin vending machine. And I think legally that also offers a much easier path to acceptance. I think one of the things we forget to consider is that many people would find local bitcoins or an exchange a very dicey proposition. And especially local bitcoins in terms of physical safety. I used to run small value amounts on local bitcoins to help newbies, you know, under $50 on average to help newbies get Bitcoin. And I had structured my ads to be appealing to people who had safety concerns. What I found was a lot of younger people and a lot of women preferred my ads because they were concerned about their physical safety when interacting with a complete stranger in a Craigslist type environment. I think ATMs solve that and it's an even better solution to that to onboard. You know, a different demographic for bitcoins that then might use local bitcoins. All of these onerams are great. I'd like to see the more. I think the US is lagging behind quite a bit because of the regulation so we need to see that fixed. I agree. And I think the Bitcoin ATMs are a great temporary solution and there's something that we need during the adoption that we might not need afterwards. I'd like to see the 2 way ATMs machines because I'd like to see someone come in with a QR code and then make the machine just rain out money. I really like the idea of that. But I do agree it's a much greater regulatory challenge to have a 2 way ATMs. And some of the machines don't even allow anonymity because they're worried about the money and transmitter laws and the limits of $10,000. So I think we're seeing a lot of people that might want to convert their cash hoard into Bitcoin and they might want to do it with these machines. Other people might have a couple extra bucks and put it into savings on Bitcoin. Try out this new currency just as a laugh and we should encourage both of those things I think. Exit question, which will seem more broad adoption? One way Bitcoin machines or Bitcoin vending machines? Is there really a future in Bitcoin only machinery? Chris J. Yeah, I think it's simplest. So I think that's a good place to stop. Christoph Atlas. Yeah, I think for regulatory reasons it's going to be there's going to be a lot more vending machines at first and they're going to be these 2 way ATMs. Megan Lord. I would agree with Christoph on that. And I think there is a future in Bitcoin only machinery. It's the most popular cryptocurrency at the moment and yeah, it's going to be dominating for a while. And Drez and Tenoblis. I think one way is definitely the way to go, but I also think we're going to be seeing individuals with mobile applications become mobile ATM machines for Bitcoin too. I know there was a person who used to sit in the cafe by the other Bitcoin ATM and offer a feeless transaction. He himself was a Bitcoin ATM. Moving on. Issue 3. PayPal wants to be your digital wallet. PayPal, the internet's failed first monetary system has been trying to cuddle up next to Bitcoin, the internet's successful monetary system. But no one cares. What can PayPal do to make a splash? Is an online wallet system enough? Or will they just be hacked and made fools of? Will PayPal succeed more importantly? Will they survive? Kristoff atlas. Well, I think PayPal can be useful to Bitcoin by speeding the rate of adoption up. I think this is going to be a defining moment for PayPal. They started with the goal of creating a digital currency and inevitably they were shot down by governments like any centralized organization would. That's where Bitcoin is succeeding is where these centralized organizations failed. Since then they've co-used into becoming part of the legacy banking system. Much of their business now relies on the regulatory hurdles that were erected to shut out competitors. PayPal does not have a lot of free market competition. Now they have a choice. They're either going to stay with the legacy banking system and they're going to have to fight to oppress people's financial freedom or they're going to jump into what's going to be a very highly competitive, unregulatable cryptocurrency market. That's going to be a significant adaptation for them if they decided to take that choice. Megan, Lord. I'm glad to see that they finally caught on but Bitcoin is a threat to them as a payment system. I think it's a little bit too late. I could be wrong about that. I don't know long term. I think Bitcoin is going to outpace PayPal. Like Christophe said, they've always taken advantage of the kind of climbing in suppressing competition and things like that. This is something that they can't really compete against. I don't see them lasting on term. Andreas Antonopoulos. Oh, seems to be frozen. Chris, Jay. I think PayPal is a good news for Bitcoin because it actually helps establish Bitcoin among people who have not heard of cryptocurrencies and will give them a much easier way to onboard. PayPal is probably the most desired way to put money into Bitcoin and it's very difficult to do that because of their practices with freezing accounts. I think Bitcoin will actually benefit tremendously from PayPal adoption and if all of the banking institutions out there that face competitive threats, I think PayPal is the most able to adapt and be flexible and actually beat the other banks to it and provide not only exchange services but also secure storage services that as we're seeing with mouthgawks and others getting hacked are going to be a problem for a while. They bring that credibility. They bring the security equities. They bring the easy on ramp and all of those things are going to drive the Bitcoin price up and they're going to increase some mainstream adoption. I'm really happy to see PayPal get interested in Bitcoin. Chris, Jay. Yeah, Andreas is stolen away my material. Damn it. Yeah, I, well, let the story hang on. What's the story? Is it about PayPal at one of the biggest payment companies in the world actually expressing an interest in our wonderful projects or is it the lack of journalism on CoinDesk? What is with that headline? PayPal dislikes digital currency's question mark. I've never said a question mark in a headline before. Then it yawn. Oh man, this is really bad. I mean, this is really, this is quite, this is, I believe there's a lot about that. Oh really? Lewis Law says any headline that ends in a question mark can be easily answered with the word no. Yes. So I'm just quite shocked at this. I don't care who I annoy by saying it. This is called Attitudinal Journalism in the trade and all it is is a bunch of opinions. What was really interesting though was the interview with John Donahue on Bloomberg. That was really interesting because he made a really good point on there about how it's not about payments. It's about shopping. Well, I mean, I don't agree that it's about, you know, friction or shopping either, but it is, his point is the money needs to disappear. And he's clearly, he's clearly seen the curve. And I would love to see PayPal get into this. What I'd really like to see them do actually is help get Bitcoin into developing countries because they have the reach. They've got the capital. They've got the reserve. Their share price is up 80% in the last two years. Okay, that's not as well performing as some other start up stocks, but they can help themselves to become more relevant. One of the tough things in Silicon Valley is keeping yourself attractive to new talent that comes out of the Stanfords and the other tech-based universities. So I think one of the ways they can do that is by using taking advantage of their size. They're not a bank remember and they were forced to become a depository, which is not the same as a bank. That just means that they look after the funds. They're not allowed to do any of the bad stuff like the fractional reserving. So they're very, very well placed to get this into developing countries. Screw this frictionless, crutch shopping thing. I don't want to hear any more about that. I want to see them have some impact. I agree. And I agree with Christoph's point that this is an evolutionary opportunity for PayPal. They could change and survive or they could stay the same and die. If they want to be eBay's shopping arm, they could be that. But they also, you know, talking about share price, talking about the monetary value of their corporation, they could make some acquisitions. They could take over something like cryptocurrency or Coinbase. They could take some of their knowledge and bring it to them. There's opportunities for PayPal in this space and I think we'll see them expand. They might give it a shot, but Western Union is done. Exit question. Can PayPal act fast enough? We're now at Bitcoin plus five years. How many years passed Bitcoin's invention will PayPal last? Christoph atlas. I think that's a tough question to speculate on. I think there's still time for them to do it. They have a lot of resources available to them that could help them speed things along. Overstock got it done very quickly and I don't see why PayPal couldn't. The only thing that concerns me about PayPal is that for the last couple of years now they've been this kind of like bank like company and those companies are really good at like following their old business model and just like holding on until they die. And so I'm curious if PayPal still has the quickness and the innovation in their company to do something completely new. I don't know but I think there's still time for them to jump in at this point. Absolutely and I think it's a good point to look at PayPal's history. They have been blocking Bitcoin transactions in the near recent future as well as they famously blocked WikiLeaks donations. PayPal has not been acting like an impartial bank. They've been making very political decisions in the past and this might muddy their future. Bitcoin received a prefer or more freedom loving exchange rather than a bank. Megan Lourdes. They also blocked some of free AIDS funds to the Philippines too. So yeah a lot is going to have to change. I think on a philosophical level for PayPal to continue to succeed. I can't put a number on how many years it will take. But I do always try to remain optimistic and hope that they will eventually have a change of heart and embrace Bitcoin and also the decentralized philosophy of it too. Andres Anton Novelis. PayPal is a bit like a bunch of campers being chased by a bear. It's important to remember that they don't need to outrun the bear. They only need to outrun the other campers so the bear has something to get busy with. And they will outrun the other banks. They will because they've always kept the least the spirit of innovation going and they're not quite as banky as the other banks. So I would expect PayPal will do pretty well adopting and co-opting where it can and playing with Bitcoin faster at least than the other banks that are going to get eaten by the bear. Chris, Jay. You know how I feel about predictions, man. I don't want to put a date on it. But what I heard from John Donahue. By the way, John, if you're watching this call me about Feathercoin, obviously we can help each other out that way. In case Bitcoin doesn't work out for you. Yeah, I think I am optimistic. I like PayPal as a company on the whole and I want to see them adopt this and change before they have to. The correct answer is seven. If they make it past seven, they'll survive. If not, they'll die. Issue four. Grab bag. I couldn't decide between three topics. So it's guest choice. Would you like to talk about Super Nintendo Loskey and his Reddit AMA that's convinced the community that he'll adapt or the Winklevi and their desire to name everything after themselves with the launching of the Wink Index. Or will long the pumper and the strange and terrible story of Panda Coin. Megan Lords, it's your choice. Okay, so these are all topics that I haven't done a whole lot of research on it, but I'm going to take a crack at the Loskey AMA. So what I read from it, I don't know that it was super convincing. I don't know who is saying the Bitcoin community is convinced that this guy has their best interest in mind. From what I read, it just sounded like the same big kind of politiciany answers that you always hear. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle though because I really do want to hope that as an individual he will be open to these kind of ideas and be looking at things long-term also. But at the same time, I mean, it's important to consider who he's working for and those interests as well. So I didn't see a whole lot of, I don't know, to his answers. Again, I don't know the claim that the Bitcoin community is now convinced that he's on their side is an accurate assessment of that. So that's my take out. And I'm somewhere in the middle. I hope that I, again, with the PayPal thing, I hope that he has this kind of change of heart and can come around and see the benefits of Bitcoin as an individual. But I don't know, I'm not convinced. And Jai is anti-Nobolas. I don't know, I'm bored talking about regulators asking their permission in order to create or continue to use a global fluid currency seems kind of pointless to me. I don't know if Superintendent Loskey is the good guy that those Bitcoin community people hope he is. And whether he's going to be nice to Bitcoin, I don't particularly care if he's nice to Bitcoin. I think he should be worried about whether Bitcoin's going to be nice to him and the rest of his profession. Because at the moment he has an opportunity to make a career out of it by being a pioneer. But this does not bode well for career bankers and regulators. Any more that it bodes well for ratings agencies of the MPA or the FCC and various other organizations that were regulating telecoms before the internet, all of the lessons is coming your way and it's coming fast. And that really doesn't make a difference whether you like us or not. Because Bitcoin continues and will continue elsewhere if you stop it in New York. I'm actually a bit gratifying that he was willing to talk to the community. But once again, I think that we can see much more interesting solutions than regulation through central authority. I think I would like to see for example a proposal by Gregory Maxwell that's been circulating which is a proof for fractional reserve for the fact that exchanges are not doing fractional reserve and in fact have full solvency and holdings. Having a mercury tree approach of hashes against Bitcoin holdings that are proven to each and every individual account holder every time they log in, thereby allowing those exchanges to prove solvency without showing the total value of their assets. I think very smart ideas like that give us a new path forward for regulation. A path that doesn't require regulators. And I'm much more interested in self-regulation and security mechanisms and trust mechanisms that can be built on top of cryptographic proof rather than trying to replicate the old systems of regulators, hierarchical organizations. Systems that effectively don't work. They don't work to protect consumers. Chris, Jay. So I didn't watch it all the way to the end but I did watch your awesome, awesome video of that Panda Coin thing. And I've got a hand at team and that was great. Post up the link if you've got like a chat room or whatever to put this in because everyone needs to watch that. It was very Homeric. It was full of tragedy and drama. You really, really made it. And the reason I'm picking on this story is because I can speak about this first hand because Feathercoin had this direct experience with Unox back in the summer. We were full of life. Young people, most of whom had quit their jobs. I'd quit my job already for some time. And we just wanted to have some impact. And long came this technology and communities emerge around need. And what these altcoins represent is divisibility by diversification. It's not the same network. This isn't about taking value away from Bitcoin. This is about adding value to the people that are there and getting a flow of value there. It's about drawing trust around borders of trust and culture rather than by fictional national borders. Those national borders aren't there to keep immigrants out. They're there to keep the citizens in. They're there to keep you in order, rank and file. And one of the great things that I love in society is heterophilia, love of difference. One of the things we see in societies is cross-pollination. It's people moving from one community to another. Someone that goes to a chess club might also go to a photography club and they might have something interesting to say or expat communities that I believe there are more well speaking people in Argentina. Then there are any country outside of Wales itself. So you get this kind of cross-pollination. The reason that's important is because we don't really find our way home until we leave home. Until we go somewhere else and we find out what's alien about us. Until somebody from the outside can tell us who we really are because all I get is an inside view looking out. How does this have anything to do with the paniquing? In that chat that you read out so well, Tom, was this kind of, this is why you don't want to do. This is why a lot of very good people at Feathercoin stepped up when Unions happened. A lot of people that were just quiet on the forum who had been hanging around and believed in the project, believed in Bush, who wanted to help out. All of a sudden you've got this rush of like, we need to save this. I can't walk away from this. Ruth is like, I'm not walking away from this. We can't. We've got to do something. This is why people don't sign up for these projects in the first place because they fear that their work will be squandered by another. They fear that they're going to put on all this hard work and then someone else. This is a problem that everyone needs to be worried about. Fraud isn't something that happens somewhere else. Fraud can happen everywhere and you need to be vigilant. You need to be asking hard questions of your managers, of the people that you work with, the people that you think you know. Your loyalty needs to lie with truth because the only thing a fraud cares about is about getting their petty little needs met. They are motivated by fear and you have to stay loyal to what is true. Even if it goes against everything that you feel about this person. Normally there are precursors to fraud. This was a pump and dump by the looks of things. You had a guy that had a lot of coins. He saw this with Phoenix Coin who actually did the dirty on his other developers and ruined their reputation or equity in the process at the same time. It's duplicity and it's really sad and I've seen it far too many times. Again, it distracts us from the story of the heroes in the space. We spend all our time talking about the criminals. It was this wonderful bit that you read out. You did a really good job reading out this kind of like despairing kind of, I can't. There was this denial and they couldn't believe that they put their trust in this person. It quashes hope and it quashes a desire to do great things because then all people want to talk about is how bad the world is. We'll never get anything done because all these bad people out there and we tell ourselves the story. Then we excuse our behavior and we say, well, it's okay if I don't do anything because the world's shit anyway and we're never going to get anything done. I'm glad that this all came out in the wash. I'm glad that it was all exposed. I hope that people are going to take away the right lessons from it. What's the update on that just because I didn't get a chance to fully get through it all? What's the latest? 250 bitcoins? 10 cetotoshis down from 60. You said something about 250 bitcoins. You can buy what for? Well, at the time that he dumped his parent's stash of Pandakorn, their estimated to be worth 250 bitcoins. If you had about one sixth of that value, you could buy yourself Pandakorn. You could just buy the whole thing right now. So if someone's going to do it and it doesn't strike me as obvious as to why they would, but if you did, you'd have to put it in a multi-sig wallet. You'd have to be fully accountable. I think that's a good point, Chris, and something we should talk about that the issues of Pandakorn can actually be solved by the new technologies of Bitcoin that we've been talking about on this show. It's important to talk about many times that essentially they were describing multi-sig contracts, but they didn't have them yet. If they had even a multi-sig that was not 100% signature, but perhaps a percentage signature, like 80%, 90%, they could continue operating without wall-long. They could have had their money in bounties for each one of the tasks they wanted done, and their board members could have agreed, well, this bounty has been fulfilled by this address. Let's all sign it, and then it goes out. The money goes out. The same thing for their large amount of money that was trapped that the developers were supposed to use. You just make six keys. The six developers, each get a key. No one can withdraw without the other people's keys. At the same time, you could time lock it. You could just literally do it with math and not be able to break the contract. None of these things happen for a penny. This is also a good message you need to give the old or folk call, let's call them the Lodites, the people that are technophobic. The concern from the agrarian section of society is that technology is bad because it makes us lazy and it facilitates all these kinds of bad behaviors. But actually, there are two kinds of technology. There's a kind of technology that does that that automates away a lot of very important things. But also, there's a technology that makes us more human. This is the technology that makes us more human because it allows us to build bonds of trust that would never have been available to us before. It allows me to make all kinds of what are known as costly signals. Look up signaling theory. Okay, just Google that term. That's a whole wealth of information. It spans economics, but also biology as well. Basically a good signal in communication studies. A good signal should be hard to make impossible to fake. Hard to make impossible to fake. It should be very costly for me to generate the signal. And then it should, in theory, be impossible to fake it. And that's exactly what this technology enables. It's an enabler that allows you to be able to build bonds of trust at any distance across the world. Near instantaneously, at virtually no cost, you can build trust with someone else on the other side of the planet, even if it's just to help them out because of some kind of natural disaster. Or it allows you to raise funding for whatever and gain trust from a bunch of strangers you've never met. Probably the best person you need to meet right now that can help you get to where you want to go. You probably don't even have time to get to know each other in order to produce whatever amazing thing that it is. And so, yeah, this is wonderful. I mean, sorry, not wonderful. We'll have to panpoint, but it's wonderful that this technology is coming out. And I really hope that people take away the right lesson from that and don't just despair at it. Christoph Atlas. Well, I want to build on what Chris said before about a trust and signals, but I want to talk about the the Loskey bit of news. We can't trust individuals. You just can't trust individuals. And what Bitcoin shows is we do have an alternative trust model. We can trust in computers. We can trust in algorithms. We can trust in cryptography. We can trust in numbers. But we can't trust individuals. So this is a new paradigm of looking at the world and finding new places of reliable trust. And what the Loskey represents is the old model in which we attempt to put trust into individuals. But of course, he's at the head of an institution that attracts individuals that are not trustworthy. And it's not like personal against him. Whoever took his position would act in a very similar manner. In fact, if he became some great defender of Bitcoin, he would simply be fired or assassinated or whatever and replaced by some other henchmen. So it's not to do with him personally. But yeah, I think we're entering into a new model of trust. And people who want to, if people want Bitcoin to be a revolutionary technology, when they look at someone like Loskey and they say, oh, well, he seems like a good guy. Yeah, he's pretty reasonable. Yeah, guidelines and protection for consumers and whatnot. To me, they look like a bunch of people standing at the end of the plank saying, well, this pirate captain that just took over our ship is, I don't know, he seems pretty reasonable. He's not going to do anything bad. And of course, they're going to be stepping off the plank pretty soon. They're going to be very disappointed. And the good news is that even though the government is completely incapable of protecting consumers, protecting depositors, protecting just about anyone except for the small oligarchy, Bitcoin is here to step in and take over and to implement this new trust model and to actually lay down some framework for free commerce and dependable trade on a global scale. It's ready to pick up the slack where the government has left off. And the real problem with the government trying to do this regulation is that they're sending false signals. They're saying, hey guys, don't worry about this. We got it. Don't worry about crime. You don't need to prevent crime on your own. The fleece are there. Don't worry about people trying to enter the country and attack you. You've got a military. Don't worry about terrorism. We've got this. And they can't actually protect any of those things. In fact, by and large, they make matters much, much worse. And so I think that when people start to see the virtue of Bitcoin in this new trust and cryptography and numbers, they're going to stop paying attention to these false market signals. And we're going to actually start getting some stuff done. We're going to actually start seeing some solutions to longstanding problems. And it's going to be a new and beautiful thing looking forward to it. I agree with Christoph. It's all about trust. And like Andrea said earlier, we have new methods now with Bitcoin where we can actually see inside the bank. We can see the workings of the machinery and the vaults. And they could work out a system where we could confirm that the exchange has the value of money that they have. Without us being able to see where it actually is or how to steal it, anything like that, we could cryptographically confirm that the money is there. This is a whole new system for banks. This is something they've never had the option for before. They could put on their webpage. You can see the graph of where our accounts are and that we have the money. And that's going to be a selling point for new exchanges. And the market will decide. People will use a trusted exchange rather than a brand new exchange. And brand new exchanges will be judged on their ability to prove trust in this trust tree in a technological system, not in an individual like Loskey. But we'll see what happens. Exit question. Which topic is the most important vis-a-vis? Which topic will we talking about again in the future? Megan Lourdes. I'd like to talk more about the potential for Bitcoin ATMs. Andreas Anton Obelis. I think we're going to be talking about Mt. Gox again because we want to really have a choice but to talk about Mt. Gox again. Chris J. Thank you. And again. Yeah, it is. I'm afraid it's going to be Mt. Gox. We need to stop calling the Mt. Gox as well. That's not even a name. They try to shoehorn that in. It's magic, the gathering online exchange, the card sharing website. They probably still got a few of the cards hanging around. They should probably get back into that business. They're invaluable, those cards. No, well, you know, scarce. Very scarce. No, so I... Sorry, did you want to assist in the else, Chris? I would like to see a council go in as well to meet Mark up in his office. I think he does need someone to go up there and just sort of listen to his problems. Chris Doth Atlas. Yeah, I guess we'll be talking about Mt. Gox. I'm a bit tired of the Gox story at this point. Ready to see it come to a conclusion. I think in the long term, the regulatory stuff will be something that we'll have to talk a lot more about. I think there's going to be more and more friction there. The gloves are going to come off and it's going to be an all-in-out war between decentralized software programmers and guys and suits. That's what I think is really going to happen. On the third day, Gandalf is going to ride in with his white army and some kind of decentralized solution will arise to whatever centralized control system they put upon Bitcoin. This will happen several times over several different layers of the technology, but it'll keep happening because this is a decentralized idea. It's a decentralized consensus system. That's what we're really talking about is the ability to make decentralized consensus, which we've never been able to do before. Now, moving on to some decentralized questions and answers if Google will load the interface. Here we go. Let's see, I believe this goes to a part of our previous question that we should provide proof to make all exchanges prove that they aren't operating on a fractional reserve and they actually hold the coins they have. Not perhaps an independent auditor, but the math solution should come through. I would agree with that. Let's see. What's going on? Code or trader here? What will be the news story that makes the public hop back on the Bitcoin bandwagon? The price is scaring everyone out of it. I think this is a good thought exercise. Everyone, if you could just work with me, what would be your story that will bring the public back? Andrea sent an op-less. You still muted. I'm still muted. Okay, here we go. I think we're going to see more and more retailers and large companies gradually adopt Bitcoin with still in the face, wherever you're announced, by a large retailer. I can't have just people imagination. We could see one of the big ones adopting Bitcoin soon, and that would be hugely important. I'd like to see some of the good news for a change because I'm really tired of talking about math docs. What's interesting on the other hand, and I think just in terms of the perspective, a lot of the docs is trading at about $100. That's still higher than the entire first half of 2013. Basically, an exchange in potential insolvency with the worst management ever is still trading at a mid-year high from last year because people understand the potential of this technology and then not willing to give up. There's a reason it hasn't gone to zero. Apart from the fact that currencies generally don't, and that's reflected in the other exchanges. The sooner we solve these problems, the sooner we can get back to what really matters. To me, Bitcoin at 500 is still extremely low priced. What I'm looking at is the long term potential. What I'm willing to hold on for as long as it takes potential is a good news to count the agency of who is exactly as. Chris J. I think the PayPal story had a potential to have taken the attention for us. I'm just really annoyed because I hate being right about stuff like this. This empty box thing is just really doing my head in. What we need is more courage. I'd like to see some of those speculators on the trollbox make themselves useful. They've managed to get some liquidity into that market. What they need to start doing is helping other people into that market. That's what good speculators are there for. They're supposed to understand that cash flow. Each in financing practices like future discounting using ideal models for that cash flow. That means that you're able to put some, well, I wouldn't recommend you do this, but you would be able to put some money on Gox, because you don't need that money right away. You can leverage your cash flow advantage. They can actually make themselves useful and get Bitcoins out to people. I'd like to see maybe some school projects to get kids experimenting with Bitcoin and coming up with ideas, maybe some hack days. I actually have a hack date coming up in April with just design focus, didn't end up Bitcoin. I'd like to see more of those things. I don't really like those kind of pump stories that sound too good to be true because then the market overreacts. There's no way of shorting the price at the moment, which means the price just goes up and up and up unfettered. There's nobody holding it down. Those aren't healthy because then you get more volatility. I'd rather it was a slow gradual increase from the ground up. I'd like some of CCC South American India to come aboard pretty soon as well. That would be cool. Kristoff Atlas. Well, I think there's two parallel Bitcoin economies that we're experiencing right now. There's a black market and there's a white market. In the white market side, I've been seeing some new services in the area of arbitration and escrow and so forth. I think one news that could be very compelling for people is, hey, we've been saying for a while that Bitcoin has no chargebacks, but guess what? There's chargebacks now that we can set up trusted third parties that can make chargeback like transactions possible. I think that will be good news that people will pay attention to. On the black market side, I'm going to throw out a wild idea here. I'd like to see something that's like Silk Road, but just for everyday kind of stuff. Something that people could use in Argentina now or Iran or one of these places is just kind of blowing up and getting screwed over by the states there that are just, you know, they've gone full retard dictatorship. I'd like to see a marketplace like that where people have some degree of, they're using some of the protections that the internet affords to trade everyday things. I think that would be hugely beneficial to the people in those countries and it would be hugely beneficial news for Bitcoin as well. Megan, Lord. I'd like to see maybe gas stations following suit like in Mexico where you have these franchises that are saying we're going to accept Bitcoin. I think it's a very easy way to get people into Bitcoin. I think people would look at that and say, okay, this is very easy. I can buy so many things with it. So, you know, quick stops very easy to use that or another country, like a major country like India coming out and saying, we're going to be friendly to Bitcoin. We're going to, you know, be more accepting to it so that in a way, we could be like, well, look at what they're doing over here. This is awesome. This is great news. But, you know, they're way ahead of the United States. They've seen some stuff of this game in regards to that. So, but the other answers were excellent too. I definitely, I would like to see all of those things. I would like to see a large retailer or a new technology, something like Ethereum in a working solution, something people could use, not to say it's not working, but just something that's finished. But I really think it's going to take the price coming back for the media to get back on Bitcoin side. Even then, they're always going to mention this. They're always going to say the price dropped to $100. They're never going to say that it was on Mt. Gox, that it was because of a certain group of non-technical people running an exchange. They're never going to say that. But we can work through it. Bitcoin prevails and will endure. We've got a few more comments. We've got Bitcoin Builder, which is a place that you can go if you'd like to wager your money on the Mt. Gox coins. You can buy coins there. Will Penguin writes in, did Chris just say, Build Boms of Trust? Awesome. I'm not sure if he said that, but that's a great... I think I said Boms of Trust. Boms of Trust. But Boms of Trust will be good too. You can throw them into an area, create a bunch of trust, then you can move on. The link to the Pandacoin video is at madbittcoins.com. It's towards the end of the most recent episode and the title mentions Pandacoin. RT News has just announced the price of Bitcoin as the Gox price, which is obviously not the true price. Is this just another example of corporate medial manipulation of the facts? Not necessarily. It's probably just laziness. And it makes the story sound better and more exciting if you can say it dropped to 100. You can say, oh man, it used to be a thousand dollars. And now it's a hundred dollars. And it's all these great round numbers and it makes sense for everybody. I mean, you could also say that Twitter used to be at $75 and now it's at like $55. I still think Twitter is great. I thought it was great the whole time. So it just happens with prices. There's an extreme laziness with journalism too. I mean, that's why I don't even... I write a lot and I just come out and say I'm a propagandaist because I don't even try to pretend that I'm unbiased. And nothing you read in the media is going to be unbiased. They're not... A lot of times looking for the truth of a story they're looking to make an eccentric or exaggerated headline. Yeah, bad news sales, newspapers. It's no different from your local news station that's reporting, you know, murders every night that are happening, one per million capita, whatever it is. Absolutely. And you can always learn more about that story by watching the GNN video countdown. Just search Google for GNN countdown or Nader countdown. It's a great video, a remix. And Ralph Nader basically made a speech that will tell you about all the things that are wrong with the local news. It's a great video. Can someone explain how decentralized escrow would work and multi-sig transactions? Absolutely. Yeah, I can take that one. So I'm not sure about decentralized escrow, but I think the general idea is this, if you are doing a transaction through one of the existing payments networks, you have the ability to reverse or do a chargeback, and that ability depends on you having counter parties involved in the transaction. So there's this misunderstanding that Bitcoin has no counter party. The truth is Bitcoin has no mandatory counter party. So if you're trading on PayPal with someone, then PayPal is your counter party. You have no choice about that. So if you're using Visa, then Visa is your counter party. On Bitcoin, you can actually inject a counter party into your transaction at your choice, the choice of the seller and the recipient. And in fact, actually, the sender of money has the choice of which counter party they inject, which gives options to open up a whole market place where, for example, for certain types of transactions, you might want to use a counter party that has arbitration rules that are suitable for your state. For other transactions that are larger, you might want to have a counter party that's an expert saying real estate or in exotic automobiles, you might want to have a counter party that's an expert in art, appraisal, and insurance like solubis or crises when you're doing an art purchase. And so you may want to go out there and pick a counter party. The key thing is the technology that allows you to do this. And the moment is still in early stages and experimental stages. But it basically works using multiple signatures that can be set to a threshold. So the current example is two out of three. So you would have three signatures in a transaction and any two of these could execute the transaction. So you could have the sender and the escrow service, the escrow and the recipient, or even the sender and the recipient overriding the escrow because the escrow went out to business and finalizing the transaction themselves. So there are a number of different ways you can do it with either one out of two or two out of three signatures that enables you to ensure that a transaction will be protected. You can use the same multi-sick technology for other purposes, not just escrow, but also back up. So for example, if you have two out of three signatures and you hold two of them, that means that, or rather one out of three and you hold two of them, then that means that if you lose one of your keys for the signature, you can use the other one to unlock the transaction. So it operates as a back up. Or for example, you could give someone a paper wallet that has some Bitcoin on it. What happens if they throw it away or if they lose it or if it drops in the gutter? Well if you have a multi-sick one out of three, you could recover those funds, say wait six months and if the person you gave the Bitcoin to didn't want it, you can take it back. So charge reversal is not only possible, but it's possible on a completely programmable, verifiable way where you can introduce third parties into your transaction based on your choice. Here's where it gets even more interesting. These counter parties don't have to be individuals, corporations or institutions. They could also be algorithmically insured. For example, you could have a service that provides what are so-called oracle signatures. These are counter parties that you can inject into your transaction that are guaranteed to sign only if the parameters of the algorithm come to fruition. For example, if you could say I'm going to add a transaction here and the necessary signature for escrow to release is that the current date is past January 1st, 2015. Essentially that would put an 11 month time-lock on your transaction. If you trust the service to follow the algorithmically generated multi-sick, then you would be able to ensure that that transaction could not be executed before. Essentially you've got escrow and arbitration and capabilities in multi-sick based on a predictable algorithm. In fact, since you can generate unlimited addresses and keys, you could select the criteria. Go to a website and say I want it to be based on a date. I want it to be based on some other external event that is under the purview or can be measured accurately by the oracle. Go to all the parameters in and say this oracle key will only sign on February 3rd or later if the value of Bitcoin on the average exchange should volume-weight it is greater than x. Create an oracle address that executes the transaction only under those circumstances. You can do some incredibly complex stuff that way. You can even chain multiple multi-sick transactions together. The possibilities for wheels and trusts and estates and value transfer after death and back up and managing your estate. All of those are quite amazing. Bitcoin can do chargebacks. Bitcoin can do escrow. Bitcoin can do arbitration. Bitcoin can do all of those things. Only much, much better. I think we should make a bow jackson commercial for that. Bitcoin can do arbitration. Bitcoin can do multi-sick because once these technologies come to pair it is not just about the old institutions. It is about what we can do in new institutions and how we can build communities and how the disaster of pandacoin wouldn't have to happen again once we totally understand these multi-sick transactions. There could be a board. There could be a community. There could be even a contest to unlock these funds to make the new logo from pandacoin to make the new website to write up some text. Where the job is, we can now have multiple people look in and say that job is well done, deserves to be paid. Once it is agreed and it is a certain percentage, that person could be paid automatically. The old systems that were required for setting up a firm or a corporation are fading away. The new distributed decentralized systems are going to solve those old problems. This actually allows and facilitates new forms of government. It allows for. If you think about what a business is, the business is just a sequence of activities. I would go a little bit further. I would say it is a sequence of activities brought about by a group of entrepreneurs. That is people that have the ability to anticipate the demand of others. By my definition, a government is a business. It is a dying business right now, but it is a business nonetheless. This allows anyone to run their own local government because the organization itself can outlive its founders. That is what is true about organizations. That can happen when one person does not hold the keys to the bank account. That happens a lot when you do a start-up. It is all about maneuvering yourself and making sure that you have the password to the Twitter account. You get leverage over the others. I have seen all of this politics before. Actually, it does away with the politics. What politics is, what do politicians actually do? It is a totally barren industry. It does not do anything. All they do is point at things that happen and posture. That is it. Anyone can do that. That is not a very interesting profession. You do not add any value. You actually subtract value. What you do as a politician is you find themes and things in the world and you find commonalities. You use it against people. You start saying, well, this group of people have started being nasty to this other group of people. How do we feel about that? You just want to get elected. It is all about getting votes. This allows for genuine honest people to be able to set up bombs of trust and be able to say, look, I am accountable. I have set up this multi-siguality. It is not just me. I have given the other key to my worst enemy. That is how committed I am to it. That is how committed us to getting this work. We have given the third key to our worst enemy. He is our biggest critic at the newspaper or whatever it is. That is a great way to do things. I do not believe in governments. I believe in people. That is what this technology really represents. I think this technology will lead to a lot more cooperation in the future and a lot less exciting scripts like the Pantico and One for me to read. You are describing where they have shared the keys and responsibilities been shared. Well, Long goes to do his pump but he cannot do it because he does not have enough keys. He does not have the support of the community. His whole thing falls apart because of technology that allows people to share, cooperate, and build new things together. That is what we are really talking about here. What did Andreas want to say something? I just wanted to say that there is also some other technologies to play into this. At the moment, multi-sig transactions are limited in the standard transaction to a maximum of three signatures and you can have one out of three, two out of three. That does not mean that one of those signatures can be based on a key that is more broadly distributed. You could have essentially a backup key that allows you to override the other two keys in the transaction. You could take that using an algorithm that is been known since 1979 when it was invented by Aiti Shamero which is Shemero's secret sharing algorithm. What that does is it allows you to take a secret key such as that one that unlocks a particular part of a multi-sig transaction. Then break it into multiple parts and set a threshold of how many are necessary. For example, let's say you have a team with 100 developers. You could have the escrow funds or the corporate funds in an account. Then you could break one of the multi-sig secrets into 100 parts and require more than 90 of them to be reconstructed to override the treasury account. That would allow through the corporation or if you like collusion of 90 of those developers, the ability to override that single transaction and withdraw the money. Essentially what you're doing is you're giving voting shares in a distributed system with the thresholds for voting. This sounds so much better than what happened in Florida in the year 2000 or what happened in Ohio in the year 2004. It's a superior technological system that's verifiable and all in the open because it's all checked. You can check it with a math. Sounds good. One of the nice things about Shameer's secrets sharing system is that it doesn't actually depend on a specific cryptographic algorithm. It depends on finding a large polynomial for a curve. Essentially that you can show mathematically that is secure. In fact, you can reconstruct the key. If you have one key shareer, then that's not reconstruct the key. It's stronger than what we used today because it doesn't depend on a difficult problem or a computation that can be brute force. The mathematics doesn't allow it. Excellent. We have a follow-up question. At this point in time, how do you set up a multi-sig? Does this exist yet in an easy format? I'm not sure it does. This is still pretty technical, theoretical, and address. It does exist. It's existed since November of 2012, when the final election was made to create the necessary Bitcoin fork to enable multi-sig transactions. The simple bit of the features is being relayed on the network and you can do multi-sig transactions. You can write your own multi-sig transactions using one of the command line tools. Some of the wallets are off the page of Lost and Jazz, but it was saying that it is possible with the command line to perform it. You can do it in the debug window. Also, there's something called Bit2Factor as well, which allows you to do, so bit2, the number2factor.org allows you to do two party escrow as well. Check that out. It's very high-tech, but it is available. The next question, let's see where to go. What are the biggest barriers to create? What are the barriers to create? Here, did you? Go ahead. What are the biggest barriers to creating an exchange in the USA? What do you see as solutions for these barriers that will keep owners and regulators happy? I know some of you guys really dislike regulation. There are a couple of exchanges still lasting in the USA. I know Kraken is based in the USA and Cripsy is based in the USA. Kraken was all affected by the transaction maliability because planning, apparently, according to the system. That's what they said. That's what they said. That's what they said. I think it's possible. I think that the issue on regulation is why be the first? Why rush to the party? You're only going to get it wrong. Why not let someone else take the fall first? Why not really understand the thing you're trying to regulate before you regulate it? Why main thing is that they should take it slow and try to really understand what they're doing. Let's see. I want to just find this, I don't dislike regulation. I'm morally opposed to regulation. I think they're ineffective and generally evil, but dislike is an unfair characterization. I think the thing with regulation is that you don't want to be the first because there's this guy. He's like, okay, we're going to play a new game. I'm not going to tell you any of the rules, but if you break any of the rules, I'm going to shoot you in the foot. Okay, who wants to start? Everyone's like, why don't you go first? Because I don't want to get shot. The guy's like, oh, well, as soon as I announce the rules, what I'm going to do is I'm going to enable innovation. What's up with all these crazy people that don't want to innovate until I tell them what the rules are? It's so crazy. It just need me so bad. It's a completely six set up that he has. These people are trying to take credit for somehow enabling innovation by announcing what their arbitrary rules are. Absolutely. I'd like to see an exchange that actually plays with the regulators because one of the interesting things that's happening with bit licenses and things like that is that they actually may end up having a lower burden than the traditional legacy banking system has in enabling these things. You add a lower compliance burden plus the fuel of frictionless currency like Bitcoin. The interesting thing is that some of the exchanges that are created out of that which may be created by people like the Binkel loss twins or others. Some of these exchanges may end up being able to compete against the banks later on on a much, much more advantageous footing. It's going to reveal the fact that the one thing that's being protecting the banks from competition and protecting incumbents and generally from competition regulation, something that they're quite happy to spend money on every year because they can spend more money on it than potential competitors. This is going to end up being the anchor around their neck that drags them to the bottom because the banks and other financial services institutions that use regulation to protect from competition will not be able to compete fast enough against these exchanges. They're going to be burdened with more regulation to connect it to their own banking system. They either have to run these as completely external subsidiaries in which case they have no benefit from scale or are they going to run it in the banking system? I have a lot of these new cryptocurrency exchanges. Either way, it's going to be hilarious to watch regulated industries fight less regulated industries, which for regulations better. All right, moving on. Next question. According to an article I read today, there is 40% of the world without access to the Internet to get crypto truly global. How is this issue to be resolved? Well, first, I'd like to say that that means there's 60% of the world that does have Internet. And I think that's awesome. That's a great start. It needs to get into rural areas. It needs to get into places like Western China. I really want to see MeshNet technology. It allows for distributed Internet. It means that anyone on a local Internet, any one person that has the Internet, everyone has the Internet because you act as a gateway on that server, but it's self-stabilizing. It doesn't require an IT manager. MeshNet, we have to look at this Bitcoin over text message. It might be an opposite option for some areas. We have to look at this from two different perspectives. One of them is opt-packing the developing world so that they can reach the level of which this infrastructure can be used relatively down-taking Bitcoin and meeting somewhere in the middle. So on the one hand, you've got SMS-capable gateways. Not only is SMS-supported functional Bitcoin wallet through Coinbase and blockchain and many others have, but there's also a more distributed guerrilla style of SMS gateway that you can use, which is simply an application you put on an Android phone, and then that Android phone becomes a wallet hold during gateway for thousands and thousands of feature phones that just have SMS. On the one hand, I think we can reach a lot more people through SMS that we can with full Internet connectivity on feature phones. We know that SMS is a financial system works because of impesa. So there are a lot more feature cell phones out there and they're much, much less expensive to acquire. If you have the ability to store a wallet on them or to use SMS to interact with a wallet, that makes those phones much more useful. It makes them much more powerful tools for development. Therefore, worth investing, you know, the 10 or 15 euros that it costs by one of these phones. Now, beyond that, there is all the possible networks, forms, decentralized networks. And here's the beauty. Cryptocurrencies through micro-payments can actually fund that infrastructure directly. So the fuel, the development of mesh networks, because they can pay by their networks on an individual by individual basis. So you can do micro-payments peer-to-peer to the owners of mesh points, energy gain, and then use the same technology to match all the issues. Say SMS to the mesh what you got is to then pay for better forms of connectivity. So both are going to happen at the same time. Excellent. And moving on to predictions. Everyone's favorite part of the show. The part where I ask you to predict the future. Are you ready? Andreus and Tenoblis. Is drop connection to avoid predictions? Good trick. I think we probably know the two. I'm not ready because I don't prepare for the show. Oh, Chris J. And I'm protected by the fact that my bandwidth has so low today that you can't actually hear that I don't have a prediction. I was going to say the only thing that can make Andreus less convincing is bad bandwidth. Yeah, my prediction obviously is the gocks thing. But I'm also very fearful. I'm quite bearish at the moment. I think that the price could go down to lower double digits on gocks, not on the other exchanges. But I think it will have a very bearish impact. The question will be, do we all the speculators just man up for us as a disser? That's a bit sexist. Will they just grow a pair? Any pair of anything? And just provide the support that this coin needs. I'm fed up with going on that trouble. I don't go on there much. But when I do, all they want to say, I need the price to go up. I know you don't need the price to go up. What you need to do is show some courage and provide the support. That's what you're there for. That's the function of a speculator in the market. So this is a great opportunity to buy some cheap Bitcoin. I just think everyone's just waiting to see what everyone else does. Chris, staff, Atlas. I think that Meshnets will be an important technology for getting people like Andreus connected to the internet. And to get more people into Bitcoin. Megan, Lord. So I don't have a prediction, but I do have some news coming from Bitcoin, not bombs. At the Texas Bitcoin conference, we're going to have some quick start guides translated into Spanish. We're working on getting them translated to Arabic and a few other languages and getting those out to people and kind of expanding our efforts on breaking down barriers with Bitcoin, doing demonstrations at borders, getting Bitcoin across the borders. So that's, watch out for that. I think 2014 is going to be really interesting for Bitcoin up, bombs. Sounds great for international Bitcoin. And, Dres, you want to give predictions and try? Yes, I think that I'm going to need it a higher capacity band with in order to be able to participate in these shows and the format. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree. Yes. The Meshnets works. Yes. Exactly what you're saying. It's all about stability of the connection. Low parity, long latency networking. Yes. And finally, this Mt. Gox nonsense ends not with a whimper but with a bang. Spectacular bankruptcies, horror tales of woe from inside the belly of the beast, price manipulation, hackers and more. The Mt. Gox movie will make the Silk Road movie look like a black and white film. Eight millimeter, shot on your neighbor's borrowed camera with bad lighting and amortist production bad. The Mt. Gox story will be the story of the year when it goes public and it's going to go public all over the place very soon. We're out of time. Until next time. Bye. Bye. Bye everyone.